Northern Ireland Assembly, 30 September 2024

320 contributions from 56 members. The official report.

Executive Committee Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Before we move to today's business, I inform the Assembly that the Defective Premises Bill received Royal Assent on 20 September 2024. It will be known as the Defective Premises (Northern Ireland) Act 2024 and it is chapter 3.

Assembly Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I advise Members that Lord Elliott of Ballinamallard resigned as a Member of the Assembly for Fermanagh and South Tyrone last Friday, 27 September. I notified the Chief Electoral Officer in accordance with section 35 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. I have been informed by the Chief Electoral Officer that Diana Armstrong has been returned as a Member of the Assembly for Fermanagh and South Tyrone to fill the vacancy. This morning, Ms Armstrong signed the undertaking and the Roll of Membership and entered her designation in my presence and that of the Clerk of the Assembly. She has now taken her seat. I welcome her to the Assembly and wish her every success in her role.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

As a result of Lord Elliott's resignation, the office of the Chairperson of the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs became vacant. The nominating officer for the Ulster Unionist Party has informed me that Robbie Butler has been nominated for that office. Mr Butler has accepted and will take up the role from 9.00 am on Wednesday 2 October 2024. I am satisfied that the requirements of the Standing Orders have been met.

Speaker's Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Before we move on, I want to deal with some other matters. First, on 23 September, Mark Durkan MLA raised a point of order about the First Minister's answer to his question about the independent review of the Department's approach to the Peacemakers Museum, Foyle.

Standing Orders make clear that Ministers should give answers:

"as clearly and as fully as possible",

and, as I said last week, it is not acceptable for Ministers to mislead the House. Members will be aware of the long-standing parliamentary position and the previous rulings that say that the Speaker cannot be expected to give a definitive view on whether the answers that Ministers give are satisfactory and accurate. The Speaker has no ability to access all the materials to investigate such a matter, establish the facts and reach a definitive conclusion.

Members, however, have the ability to pursue and probe answers with which they are unhappy, including through further questions, in order to establish the detail of an issue to their satisfaction. Indeed, it is the duty of the Assembly and its Members to conduct thorough scrutiny of the Executive.

From an initial review of the Official Report last week, it seemed to me that the Member and the First Minister were arguing on slightly different points. In his point of order, the Member clearly felt very strongly that a letter from the former permanent secretary indicated something different. I anticipate that the Member will want to pursue and probe those questions further in order to establish a clear account of events to his satisfaction.

I call Mr Gaston for a point of order.

Timothy Gaston (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Following on from that and from the ruling that you made earlier this year, on 12 March, regarding a Minister's responsibilities, I ask you and your office to have a look at the answer to AQW 14683/22-27, where the Minister for Communities has partially answered the question and has left out the detail that I would request. On that basis, I would like you to follow on from what you have been doing and to make a ruling to ensure that the Minister provides a full and frank answer to all the questions that have been asked.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for the point of order and for giving me advance notice of it. I have already highlighted that Standing Orders require answers to be full and clear. While it is in order for a Minister to report the information that an arm's-length body has provided to them, I fully appreciate that the Member has an issue with the detail of the question not being answered. I understand that he has tabled a further question for written answer, and I encourage him in that approach to obtain the information that he has asked for and the arm's-length body to ensure that it provides that information to the Minister.

Members' Statements

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I raise the issue of property management companies and shared area maintenance contracts in residential estates across the North. It has been raised recently with me as a constituency MLA, with me outside my constituency in my Committee role and, as of last week, with the Committee for Communities. It appears that a huge number of issues have arisen from those contracts and that there is a dearth of regulation around them.

The issues that have been raised with me include the performance of the contracts and the work that is or is not being done; accountability and contact with the companies in order to raise issues or complaints; the fees and charges that are levelled against the work that do not seem to be in line with the work that is being done; and, it would appear at times, aggressive pursuit of late payments or non-payment charges where disputes arise.

In the case of one particular estate in my constituency, Beechville Heights, I have not been able to secure a meeting with the management company, so I have a keen understanding of the difficulties that residents must face in that regard.

I want to flag the issue today. The Committee and I will be taking forward additional work on it. The Assembly will need to look at where improvements can be made.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I want to talk about the ongoing inquiry into Muckamore Abbey Hospital, which many of us are aware of. Last week, I was shocked to read that the inquiry heard that a former consultant psychiatrist and clinical director at Muckamore Abbey Hospital was "absolutely horrified" by allegations of the abuse of patients. Dr Colin Milliken described his "shock, anger and despair" at the revelations, but he said that he had never been aware of poor treatment of some patients.

If my memory serves me correctly, I represented a constituent who is a resident of that establishment and was under that same doctor's care. That patient, whom I can only describe without his parents' permission, is about 6' 4" in height and was regularly brought new clothes by his family. When the family came to visit him, however, he was wearing clothes that would probably have suited someone about 5' tall. Quite often, the family would have been in contact to try to speak to their loved one in the hospital but were told that he was sleeping. On a number of occasions, we questioned the young fella's medication. With a lot of work, we contacted the hospital via his mother, who was his next of kin, but we were denied any information on the patient under Dr Milliken's care.

We were told that the young lad had capacity. We then met the young lad, got his signature, made a further submission, and, again, we were denied. Let us just say that they were very obstructive, but eventually we got that information, which proved that that young fella was on medication that was keeping him in a state that the parents had witnessed, a state that was unnecessary and could only be described as a form of abuse.

To say that I was shocked last week, when I read the newspaper article on Dr Milliken's recollection, would be an understatement. Dr Milliken should have been very aware, because many of the patients under his care were abused. To keep persons dressed in inappropriate clothes is, in my book, a form of abuse. To prescribe medication to keep them in a comatose state rather than working with them is a form of abuse. All of those things happened when, if my memory serves me correctly, Dr Milliken was the said doctor.

I can only hope, as the inquiry concludes, that others will give evidence to disprove the evidence given by Dr Milliken and other senior clinicians and that, whatever went on in that hospital, we come to a good conclusion, there is a just outcome for the patients who were mistreated and they and their families will get satisfaction.

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

I rise to bring attention to a monumental scandal that was brought into sharp focus for the public on 'Nolan Live'.

The fraudulent activity that appears to be conducted through the Just Eat delivery app has lost businesses across Northern Ireland, including in my constituency of North Down, hundreds of thousands of pounds. Numerous food partners that joined the Just Eat server appear to have fallen victim to a cybersecurity breach. That led to the bank details of enterprises being altered to those of an unknown third party, resulting in the theft of income that should have been made through working with Just Eat. That has left a large hole in the pockets of businesses trying to pay rent, pay staff and cover running costs.

In my constituency, I would like to draw particular attention to Bokhara, which has lost £19,000, and Lili's, which has lost £7,500. While Just Eat makes a percentage in commission on each order, I would ask whether it has profited while the theft occurred. I spent time with the owner of the Bokhara on Thursday night and heard from him about the absolute impact and lack of trust that this has left between business owners and the delivery technology providers. They are devastated.

Those businesses deserve their funds back. Instead of acting with compassion and taking responsibility, Just Eat originally stated that, upon investigation, there had been no breach of security. Instead, the press statement insinuated that fault lay with the businesses that were victims and stated that they had shared their access codes, although many of them have said that they absolutely had not.

The Northern Ireland Food To Go Association has been working tirelessly in representing businesses across Northern Ireland that have fallen victim to this. However, the whole circumstance raises multiple questions about how it was allowed to happen, the regulation of online delivery and service providers and their cybersecurity. In my opinion, Just Eat can more than afford to reimburse the food establishments affected, and I call on it to do so immediately. Also, I urge the Minister for the Economy to look into the issue and give clarity to all those impacted so that they know that the Assembly stands with them.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I would like to put on record some remarks about the events in Lebanon last week:

"Hassan Nasrallah and the terrorist group he led, Hezbollah, were responsible for killing hundreds of Americans over a four-decade reign of terror. His death from an Israeli air strike is a measure of justice for his many victims, including thousands of American, Israeli and Lebanese civilians."

"The strike that killed Nasrallah took place in the broader context of the conflict that began with Hamas's massacre on October 7 2023. Nasrallah, the next day, made the fateful decision to join hands with Hamas and open what he called a 'northern front' against Israel. The United States fully supports Israel's right to defend itself against Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis and any other Iranian-supported terrorist groups."

"Hassan Nasrallah was a terrorist with American blood on his hands. Across decades, his leadership of Hezbollah destabilised the Middle East and led to the killing of countless innocent people in Lebanon, Israel, Syria and around the world. Today, Hezbollah's victims have a measure of justice."

Those are not my words, but I think that most right-minded people who understand the malign hand of Iran in the horrors of the Middle East will agree with them. For those who do not recognise the quotes, they are the words of President Joe Biden and, secondly, Vice President Kamala Harris. We should all welcome their unambiguous clarity. Rather than write letters of support to Iran's leadership, like some political leaders on this island have done, we should reflect on the clear lead shown by the United States on the reality of the situation in the Middle East and, rather than seeking to appease the perpetrators, take a firm stance against terrorism no matter where it is.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I want to make a statement about the decision by the Education Minister, Paul Givan, to meet the Loyalist Communities Council (LCC), which is made up of a number of loyalist gangs, narco gangs and so forth.

The Minister's decision was wrong on a number of levels: first of all, given the state of chaos in the provision of special educational needs. We heard the independent autism reviewer say on BBC last week that she has been asking for a meeting for quite a while and the Minister cannot find space in his diary to meet her. One would think that the Minister would at least make space in his diary to meet advocates from the community and voluntary sector and that particular woman, who was appointed by the Department of Health as the independent autism reviewer. I also know that Conradh na Gaeilge has been asking the Minister for a meeting since last February. Again, the Minister could not find space in his diary to meet that organisation, which is the main advocate for the Irish medium and the Irish language in the North — in fact, in the whole country.

I wonder what priorities the Minister has and why he cannot meet advocates from different education sectors but can meet loyalist gangs who, after 26 years, still have not packed up and gone away. I am all for meeting and speaking to people and trying to get them to move away from what they are doing, but no Education Minister should take direction from those gangs. The LCC said that it wanted to meet on a number of issues, including educational underachievement, but it was also demanding that Scoil na Seolta, the Irish-medium school in east Belfast, should not be given any support from the Education Department. It is absolutely outrageous that those gangs would demand of a Minister not to support a school for children whose parents want them to be educated through the medium of Irish. It is absolutely outrageous, and the Minister should make it clear that in no circumstances will he give in —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

— to that outrageous demand.

Cheryl Brownlee (DUP, East Antrim)

I rise to speak on behalf of a family facing an incredibly challenging and heartbreaking situation.

On 10 September, Lesley Poots, a beloved mother and grandmother from Northern Ireland, flew from Dublin to Dubai to support her daughter, who was going through a difficult pregnancy. Sadly, just a few days into her stay, the whole family, including Lesley, contracted a severe sickness bug. After she initially showed symptoms on 15 September, Lesley's condition deteriorated rapidly, and she was rushed to hospital on 20 September, where she was diagnosed with sepsis, blood poisoning and multiple organ failure. She was minutes away from losing her life. Thanks to the swift actions of paramedics and the outstanding care from the A&E team in the Mediclinic Parkview Hospital in Dubai, Lesley was stabilised and admitted to the ICU. She remains in a critical condition on a ventilator, receiving ongoing dialysis and fighting liver and kidney failure.

In addition to the emotional toll, the financial burden on the family is immense. Lesley, unfortunately, had no private health insurance, and the cost of her treatment is rapidly mounting, exceeding £15,000 in the first 24 hours alone. The family face what could be hundreds of thousands of pounds in medical bills, if not up to £1 million for a transplant. If Lesley recovers, her family will also need to fly her home to the UK.

It is with a heavy heart, yet strong hope, that the family have turned to the community for support. They are determined to give Lesley every chance to survive this horrible ordeal. Any contribution will not only ease the financial burden and strain but allow her loved ones to focus on what truly matters, which is being there for their mum. I urge everyone to keep Lesley and her family in their thoughts and prayers during this incredibly difficult time. A GoFundMe page has been set up online. If they can, I urge Members to share it and, of course, donate. The family would be deeply grateful for any assistance as they do everything in their power to save their mum. She is far too young to go, and they need her with them.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I reflect on the important question of accountability and responsibility-taking in this place. It is a theme on which I have reflected on many occasions since we took up our role in opposition, and it is getting more and more important. There are more and more examples of Ministers and Executive parties seeking to shift blame and responsibility and not to take accountability for decisions that they have taken or could take. It matters, because all of us stand for election to this place and take the Pledge of Office. I welcome the new Member, Ms Armstrong, who took the Pledge of Office today. We all sign the Pledge of Office and join the Assembly as an act of responsibility to the constituents whom we serve and to Northern Ireland at large.

Over the past few weeks, we have seen examples of comic and grave responsibility-shifting. Last week, we heard from the Infrastructure Minister about how he could not install a few bollards in Hill Street, one of the most important thoroughfares in our hospitality district in the middle of Belfast, because of austerity. Austerity is a grave and profound challenge for this place, for the Executive and for these islands, but austerity is not to blame for his not being able to install a few bollards in the Cathedral Quarter. That is pathetic, and it is drivel for the Minister simply to shift blame in that way.

We have also seen Executive party after Executive party table motions about delivery when their Ministers are the ones responsible for the specific areas of delivery. Sinn Féin colleagues tabled a motion on ticket touting and secondary sales after the scandal with Oasis tickets. They did, however, not call on their Minister, the Minister for the Economy, to take any action. That is ridiculous. We saw the Alliance Party table a motion on green growth in which it congratulated and garlanded with praise its Minister, the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, for action that he had taken, yet the motion did not call on him to do anything to deliver the green new deal that is in the party's manifesto.

All of that, I am afraid, goes to the heart of responsibility-shifting in this place: the sense that all of us in here want a little power but no one wants to take responsibility or accountability. It is pathetic. We need to do better, and, through taking responsibility and delivering for them, we need to prove to the people who elect us to here that we are properly about our work.

Given the day that is in it, it is important to reflect on another area of accountability on which we need to see some clarity. In the past couple of days, we have seen in the news the grave reports about a former member of staff in the Assembly who was given references by employees of a party in the Assembly and went on to seek employment in another organisation. When it comes to accountability and responsibility, there are further questions to be answered about that. I and others will ask those questions, and we hope to get clear answers.

Peter McReynolds (Alliance, Belfast East)

I became a member of the Policing Board a few months ago. Since then, I have had the opportunity to hear from the police about their views on next steps on a variety of issues, to scrutinise officers and to hold them to account directly, all of which are essential functions of a Policing Board member.

On Friday, I arrived at 11.00 pm at Lisburn Road police station and had the opportunity to spend time with two local policing officers, Peter and Nigel. They impressed me with their diligence, empathy and desire to help, regardless of the situation. Moreover, they impressed me with their ability to adapt in real time to new circumstances. On getting there, I heard about the ongoing police response to a fatal car accident in east Belfast. We then left the station to assist with a potential missing person search. We were then directed to a potential domestic violence incident and helped a deeply distressed woman who was covered in blood get back safely to her family in Lisburn.

I then watched them adapt in real time, establishing that a badly parked car was worth closer inspection. It had no insurance, and the owner, for a variety of reasons, should not have been driving. They were intoxicated while two children were passengers in the back seat. Throughout all that, those officers answered the questions that I asked from the back seat about the challenges in delivering policing in Northern Ireland. It was an eventful evening. I was able to head home, bleary-eyed, at 4.30 am, and they returned to the station to begin the paperwork from the events that had just passed before clocking off at 6.00 am or 7.00 am.

Many MLAs will have had the opportunity to observe the police in action. That was truly one of the most rewarding, eye-opening and impactful evenings of my time in politics. My main takeaway was that the police play a crucial role across all our communities and that, yes, the resources are challenging. It was a reminder to me that, when the Assembly is functioning, we can do an awful lot more than when it is not. Like the police who support our communities and the group of neighbourhood watch coordinators whom I met the next day, let us — the Executive and Assembly — push on and support our police and all the Departments with consistency, diligence and an ability to adapt ourselves in order to deliver the safe, thriving and united community that Northern Ireland deserves.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Some may be aware that today is National Nonspeaking/Non-verbal Awareness Day. I make the House aware of a vision called Love Needs No Words NI Hub. Its mission is clear: to create meaningful connections and to provide vital services for individuals who are nonspeaking and non-verbal, regardless of their disability, diagnosis or age. I ask everyone to imagine a world where every voice is heard, even those of people who cannot speak. Imagine the breakthroughs in understanding and the joy that we could cultivate by simply giving people the tools and space to communicate in their own unique way. That is what should drive us: the belief that communication is more than just words and that every individual deserves to have their own way of expressing themselves. Advocates for and parents of non-verbal children have unwavering optimism for what can and should be, because they know that together we can build something special and something that truly matters. Their approach is guided by kindness, care and a deep sense of responsibility to foster inclusivity in all communities. They are not just creating a hub of support but changing the way in which the world understands non-verbal communication.

I invite members to join us in celebrating this important day — National Nonspeaking/Non-verbal Awareness Day. Together, we can bring awareness to a world that often overlooks the beauty of non-verbal expression and build a community that is compassionate and open to the diverse ways in which people communicate. It is not just about raising awareness, however. More importantly, it is about changing lives and creating a place where everyone, no matter their ability or means of communication, feels valued, understood and heard. We can only do that collectively, so it should be our commitment, as legislators, to put our shoulders to the wheel. With our support, a truly transformative space can be built with the power to spark real change across all our communities.

I ask you to take a moment to visit the Love Needs No Words NI Hub website, learn about their vision and think about the difference that we can make together. It takes only one connection or one act of kindness to set off a ripple that can help many wonderful individuals on their journey to finding their voice. Let us join forces, lift each other up and create a community in which everybody belongs. I believe in that dream, and I hope that others can see it too.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Hypocrisy is never far from this place. We had a fresh dose today from Mr Sheehan. He questioned the priorities of an Education Minister who, since taking office, has hit the ground running in tackling the priorities that affect everyday citizens in Northern Ireland. Meeting over 70 schools since taking office, the Minister has set about an approach to tackle the huge childcare bills that face everyday constituents, to settle teacher pay issues, to create an additional 1,400 places for children with special needs and, yes, to tackle educational underachievement.

The House should be ashamed of its track record on that last issue. Sadly, working-class Protestant boys have borne the brunt of educational underachievement in this country.

Well, I have news for the House: the DUP will not leave behind its working-class, loyalist communities. Regardless of where they come from, like every other citizen in this place, they deserve the right to educational attainment.

Many parties have questioned the rule of law. Dare I remind the House that it was the DUP, in 1998, that opposed the release of prisoners on to our streets? That is why today's comments from Mr Sheehan are particularly alarming. Let us look at his history. In 1978, Pat was sentenced to 15 years in jail for trying to bomb a cash and carry. Mr Sheehan was released from prison in 1987. In 1989, he was sentenced to 24 years for leaving a bomb at a Belfast security checkpoint. He was released under the terms of the Belfast Agreement.

However, Members, even that did not spare the blushes of the bold Mr Sheehan. He was not quite done at that stage with insulting victims, and, around 2010, he described the Northern Ireland conflict as "probably quite civilised". In one chilling intervention, he said:

"The IRA ... if it had wanted to kill Protestants, could have left a 1,000lb car bomb on the Shankill."

For those who perhaps felt that he had moved on with time, around 2006, he said that he was "proud" that he took up arms. What hypocrisy have we heard from the Member today?

What about Sinn Féin? In 2021, the PSNI assessment of the IRA army council's relationship with Sinn Féin maintained that it remained unchanged. Perhaps the party should take the plank from its own eye before it casts aspersions on Members who are committed to the rule of law —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

— and committed to delivering for every —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

— community across Northern Ireland.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I congratulate New Irish Arts on celebrating its 30th anniversary at the weekend with two very special performances at the Waterfront Hall.

For over three decades, the New Irish Arts group has been equipping and giving opportunities to musicians, churches and organisations right across the country and beyond. New Irish Arts was set up in 1994 by renowned local hymn writer and musician Keith Getty, who has gone on to achieve incredible success around the world and is a great ambassador for Northern Ireland. One year later, Jonathan Rea BEM got involved in New Irish Arts. Through his leadership, he has been instrumental in seeing the group grow from strength to strength: he has been creative director since 2005. Many years ago, Jonathan taught me how to play or not to play the recorder in Bangor Grammar School, with limited success, unfortunately.

The New Irish Arts group is made up of several hundred dedicated volunteers of all ages who make up the choir and orchestra. It also has a very vibrant and talented youth choir, youth orchestra and a committed audiovisual team. It provides wonderful opportunities for young people to develop and perform using their musical talent and skills. The group is always in great demand right across Northern Ireland and beyond, and it performs at many concerts, broadcasts and events throughout the year, with annual charity collections at its creative events.

New Irish Arts has had a very positive impact on church worship right across these islands for over 30 years. I warmly congratulate everyone involved in the New Irish Arts group, which is based in Bangor, as it celebrates 30 years and looks back proudly on its past. I wish the group very well for the next 30 years and pay tribute to Jonathan and all the dedicated volunteers who are involved.

Timothy Gaston (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I pay tribute to the life of Robin Kyle, who was suddenly called home last Wednesday while sitting peacefully in front of the fire in his living room.

Robin was well known in the farming community and in the Presbyterian Church, where he served as an elder. However, it was through the loyal orders that Robin gained respect from right across Northern Ireland. He served 39 years as county grand master of Tyrone Royal Arch Purple Chapter and 29 years as secretary of his own Orange lodge and a grand lecturer and grand master of the Royal Arch Purple.

Whether through the loyal orders or over half a century with the Department of Agriculture, Robin's life was one of service to others. Robin will be sadly missed in all those circles, but he will be missed most in the family home.

Robin was a husband, father and granda. I think today of his wife, Agnes, his son, Allister, his daughter, Pamela, and his two grandchildren, Eva and Isaac. The wisest man who ever lived reminds us in Proverbs 27:1:

"Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth."

Thankfully, Robin was a saved man and was ready when the call came.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

We have two minutes. I call Deborah Erskine.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Sadly, people in many homes across Northern Ireland are grieving today due to the tragic loss of a loved one on our roads. The shock of that never leaves you. There is an empty seat at the table and missed family events. Those people cannot be replaced. In my constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, there have been three fatalities in the space of approximately 10 days. Communities and families have been plunged into heartbreak and grief. I publicly send my condolences to those families and to all those across Northern Ireland who are in that position.

Recently, the Executive launched their road safety programme. It is important that we take that seriously and implement it. Unfortunately, the level of fatalities on the roads brings it into sharp focus. I cannot say strongly enough from the Chamber that, as road users, we all have a duty to make sure that there is safety on the roads. Our choices on the roads can make the difference between whether you or someone else gets home safely to their family. Improving roads in order to ensure that they are safer can go only so far: it is down to each of us and our own decision-making.

I travel quite a bit on the roads — on the Westlink, the M1 and roads across Fermanagh and South Tyrone. It is astonishing to see people putting on their make-up, eating their breakfast and using their mobile phone while driving. Recently, somebody told me that they had seen somebody reading a book while driving. As an MLA, each week, I get a number of queries from constituents highlighting the speed of drivers on the roads. It is disgraceful that people disregard the regulations of our roads. Everything can change in an instant — in a split second.

We must make sure that no families have to suffer the pain and loss of a death —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Will the Member bring her remarks to a close, please?

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

— due to a road traffic collision. We need to ensure that we send the programme's strong message to Share the Road to Zero.

Speaker's Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Before we move to the next item of business, I have one other issue that I want to bring before the House. It is to remind Members of Standing Order 1(2):

"The Speaker’s ruling shall be final on all questions of procedure and order."

When one of the Deputy Speakers or I are speaking, Members should resume their seats. When the Chair gives a direction that a Member's time is up or that they need to return to the subject of the debate, they should follow that direction without challenge. I recognise that we have a number of relatively new Members, but we will keep an eye on that area, and, if necessary, a Member will be asked to resume their seat and may not be called again for some time if there is a lack of cooperation.

Before we move to the next item of business, there will be a change of Chair. Members may take their ease.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker in the Chair)

Opposition Business

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I beg to move

That this Assembly regrets the state of mental health service provision in Northern Ireland; laments that the number of people who have passed away as a result of suicide is higher than those who lost their life in the Troubles; and calls on the Minister of Health to work with his Executive colleagues to commit in the draft Programme of Government to make the prevention of suicide a priority across all Departments and to utilise every resource to support those struggling with suicidal thoughts, to introduce targets to address the prevalence of mental health disorders across all age groups and to introduce targets to tackle the rate of anxiety and depression in children and young adults.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. As an amendment has been selected and is published on the Marshalled List, the Business Committee has agreed that 15 minutes will be added to the total time for the debate. Colin, please open the debate on the motion.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Thank you very much, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to open this Opposition day and to present this motion on mental health.

I pay tribute to the many organisations, groups and professionals with whom the Opposition engaged ahead of today. I am delighted that a number of them are here today with the mental health policy group (MHPG) in the Long Gallery. Many of those groups and organisations are truly at the coalface of the continuing mental health crisis across Northern Ireland. I do not say that lightly; we are truly in the midst of a crisis. The most recent data tells us that, in 2022, over 200 people lost their lives to suicide. Since 1998, more people have lost their lives to suicide than those who lost their lives in the Troubles. Two hundred lives lost: countless family members left to pick up the pieces of a life that was cut short; innumerable friends, colleagues or even strangers left wondering why, and whether they could have helped in any way. As an Assembly, we, too, must ask why. We also must ask whether there is something that we can do to help. That is the first step of the journey that we embark on today through our debates.

I have mentioned the many groups and organisations that are working in the crisis that are here today. Many of those organisations struggle, year-on-year, to put a proper budget in place. Recently, some have seen their core grant slashed by 50%. Addressing that has to be the second step of our journey. The third step is to examine how other Departments have a role to play. We propose one solid outcome that the Executive could take forward to help the most vulnerable in our society. That is the journey that we embark on today through our Opposition day motions. I say to every Member that this is not about blame, point-scoring or pontificating. With each contribution that you make, please keep to the forefront of your mind those who are struggling with their mental health and those families who have lost someone to suicide.

Today is an opportunity to improve people's lives. Let our responsibility, as legislators, and our empathy, as fellow human beings, be the twin lens through which we approach today's debate. I have mentioned that over 200 people lost their lives to suicide in 2022. Even one life is too many. As part of our response to the crisis, the previous Health Minister and the Executive launched a 10-year mental health strategy. The scope of that strategy, the associated action plan and the funding commitment were unprecedented and, like today, offer a unique opportunity to improve people's lives.

In that strategy sat 35 high-level actions for the development and transformation of services, with five standout actions identified: an action plan for early intervention and prevention; increasing the funding for child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS); changing the structure of service delivery; integrating the community and voluntary sector in that delivery; and developing a regional mental health service across our five health trusts. To date, approximately 20 of those key actions have started, which is positive and has to be welcomed, but, on the flip side, none of the actions has been completed, and the strategy has been failed and constrained by recurrent underinvestment. In the past year alone, over £24 million should have been allocated to the strategy's implementation; instead, it has received just over 25% of the necessary funding.

If we do not properly fund the strategy, it will fail. Clearly, we need to see it being funded properly if we want it to succeed.

I will be unequivocal in my remarks. I do not doubt for one second the Health Minister's commitment to the strategy or his desire to see it succeed. I say that of his predecessor, Robin Swann, as well, because it was the previous Health Minister who told the Health Committee that he had sought a commitment that, as part of any monitoring rounds, Health would be the priority for the Executive. However, the Minister for the Economy and the Minister of Education made the same ask, so no commitment could be given. I appreciate that funding comes from the Treasury and that the inclination of some is to point the finger at the UK Government while saying, "Please, sir, I want some more". However, the question of how much money the Treasury provides us is irrelevant if our Executive are not on one page, speaking with one voice in a spirit of commonality and shared purpose and with clear and measurable targets. That is what we seek today.

If I may, I will quickly address the amendment. I always welcome the opportunity to debate amendments. Often, they can complement and enhance motions and, indeed, legislation. However, the amendment is essentially a rewrite of the original motion with one strange omission. The amendment

"laments... the number of people who have passed away as a result of suicide",

as does our motion. It calls for the Minister to work with his colleagues to prioritise suicide prevention: so does our motion. It calls for support for those who experience suicidal thoughts: so does our motion. It calls for targets to support children and young people. The original motion does all those things, but the fundamental difference is that the amendment removes the request to include all those things in the Programme for Government. The draft Programme for Government already skirts the issue of mental health. The amendment removes it from the conversation entirely. I will not support that, and the SDLP cannot support that.

If we were to support the amendment, we would send a startling message from the House to all those who are struggling with mental health issues and all those organisations, members of which are upstairs in the Long Gallery and alongside whom Members will, undoubtedly, be photographed. The message will be for ever printed above the Building that our Programme for Government does not prioritise mental health, because we are just not going to talk about it.

We owe it to the many thousands of people who have lost their lives to suicide, the countless people who are seeking help with their mental health and the many organisations trying to fill the void that we, as an Executive and an Assembly, are not servicing to assure them that mental health will be a priority for the Executive. Let mental health be a priority when the Executive weigh up the question of budget cuts or revenue raising or when they consider working in silos as opposed to working together. Let mental health be a priority in the delivery of the Programme for Government.

I look forward to the debate and to hearing from the Executive parties' representatives and the Minister about how we will respond to the crisis. As I said at the outset, let us keep those who are most vulnerable at the forefront of our minds and our decisions today. Let us deliver something positive for them. Let this place offer some hope and not another reason for despair.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I beg to move the following amendment:

Leave out all after "Northern Ireland" and insert: "laments that the number of people who have passed away as a result of suicide since 1998 is higher than those who lost their lives in the Troubles; calls on the Minister of Health to work with his Executive colleagues to commit to making the prevention of poor mental health and suicide a priority across all Departments, and to utilise every resource to prioritise resilience and coping skills from an early age, dramatically improve access to mental health services and support those struggling with suicidal thoughts; and further calls on the Minister to introduce specific targets to address the prevalence of mental health disorders across all age groups, including the rate of anxiety and depression in children and young adults, as well as reduce mental health waiting times."

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Diane. You have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members will have five minutes.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. I rise to propose the amendment not to indicate that we do not want to talk about mental health, as the proposer of the motion suggested — I regret some of his remarks — but to slightly broaden the scope of the original motion to talk about general levels of mental health and well-being.

It is in that spirit that I offer the amendment and not in the spirit of shutting down conversation about the most important issue that we could address and one that, I know, the Minister has made a priority.

We are glad, Minister, to see you back today. We hope that you are feeling reasonably well after COVID, which can be very debilitating.

We felt that it was important to emphasise not simply what Departments could do but what other agencies, as well as our crucial community and voluntary sector, could contribute. Appropriate oversight of mental health services has been recommended in a number of important reports in recent years. My colleagues and I are contacted regularly about the lack of access to services for ADHD and autistic spectrum disorder, as well as mainstream general adult and children's mental health services.

There is little ambition in the recently published 'Mental Health Strategy 2021-2031: 2024/25 Annual Delivery Plan'. The 50-page document contains fewer than eight pages on what is planned to happen this year. What has been achieved so far is welcome, Minister, but it is a drop in the ocean compared with what the strategy envisages. A firm grip needs to be taken on the mental health strategy, with concerted efforts made on its dozens of actions, otherwise it will quickly become outdated.

Earlier this year, the mental health champion, Siobhán O'Neill, expressed significant concerns about the lack of investment in the mental health strategy, calling it "incredibly disappointing" that the Department of Health had invested only £9 million in the strategy. Around 7% of our Health budget is allocated to mental health, which is well behind the 11·4% in England, 9·4% in Scotland and 13·3% in Wales. While some criticise the broader Executive, it cannot be blamed solely on the Executive; it is also about prioritisation in the Department of Health The idea that the Executive could simply hand over £1 billion for a strategy on top of what Health already receives was never a realistic prospect in challenging financial circumstances.

The Public Accounts Committee (PAC) made a number of recommendations to the Department of Health last year on mental health, and only a few have been acted on. The Committee said:

"More funding for mental health represents an 'invest to save' opportunity".

It recommended:

"setting out a target and timeframe over which to grown [sic] funding towards the 10-11 per cent suggested by the Mental Health Champion."

There was a recommendation to:

"grow the mental health workforce".

The Committee also said :

"While there is a general need to reduce the numbers on waiting lists ... there is particular need to address the numbers waiting for psychological therapies."

It further recommended that:

"the Department urgently implement services for those with co-occurring mental health and substance use issues. It is not acceptable that the pace of change in this area is so slow."

In the Northern Ireland life and times survey of 2023, only 50% of those aged 18 to 24 reported positively on their mental health and well-being. That is such a sad statistic for Northern Ireland. Research has shown that half of adult mental health disorders develop before the age of 18, which highlights the need to prioritise the acquisition of resilience and coping skills from a very early age. The youth well-being survey in Northern Ireland 2020 found anxiety and depression levels here to be around 25% higher than in the child and youth populations in other regions. That reflects a similar trend in Northern Ireland's adult population. Some 29% of respondents to the life and times survey reported that their mental health and well-being had been impacted by Northern Ireland's Troubles.

Last week, I had the opportunity to meet representatives of New Script for Mental Health, who have highlighted that one in five adults in Northern Ireland was prescribed an antidepressant last year. That is a shocking statistic.

In the poorest areas — this ties in with the Minister's focus on health inequalities — it was 27% of the population, which represents a fourfold increase in the past 20 years.

Forty per cent of females aged 45 to 64 were prescribed an antidepressant in the past year. There does not appear to be a plan from the Department to address that rise in prescribing rates, so, Minister, that is one of the issues that I would like hear about from you in your response, because those are fairly shocking statistics for Northern Ireland. In 2021, the Office for Statistics Regulation criticised mental health data, stating that it did not serve the public good. Last year, the Northern Ireland Audit Office stated that, as a result, it was not able to conclude whether mental health services were providing value for money. The data itself therefore needs to be improved as well so that we can better serve people who are experiencing mental health issues.

Mental ill health has a devastating impact on the individual, but it is also having an impact on the workforce and on growing the economy. The rise in work-limiting conditions across the United Kingdom in recent years has been driven by sharp increases in reported mental health issues, particularly amongst young workers. The number of workers aged 16 to 34 who report that their mental health limits the type or amount of work that they do has increased fourfold over the past decade. Mental health issues are now the most common cause of work-limiting conditions among those aged 44 and younger in the United Kingdom.

I have spent some time looking at the statistics and putting them on record in the House, because they are quite shocking. The more that I hear about and look at them, the more that I am convinced of that. It means that we have to tackle not only the awful number of suicides but the general mental health and well-being issues that our population is experiencing. I offer the amendment in that spirit, not in a spirit of hiding from any of the issues, because they are issues that I have spoken about and that I speak to individuals and groups about regularly. I urge the Assembly to consider amending the motion.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Member who tabled the motion. Colin and Diane mentioned some of the statistics around deaths by suicide. As Colin said, when we are talking about the issues and using numbers and figures, we are talking about the impact on people's lives and their families. There are over 200 deaths by suicide a year, with provisional figures for 2023 showing a slight increase, thus perhaps bringing the figure up to 221. We cannot have a conversation about mental health and suicide prevention without mentioning the 585 lives that have been lost as a result of drug deaths over the past three years, with the biggest killer being alcohol, which accounts for around 350 deaths every single year. The sad thing to note in this debate is that all those deaths were preventable somewhere along the line. Given that drug and alcohol deaths have doubled over the past 10 years, it is timely that we are having this debate today to try to refocus minds on how we can make some of this better.

Over the past number of years, Sinn Féin has gathered with families that have been bereaved through suicide and drug deaths. We met families at the front of Stormont around Christmastime, when the Christmas trees were going up. Those families have been calling for the same thing that the motion calls for: more action, more cross-departmental working and more investment in tackling addiction and mental health. The Alliance Party joined us last year at the front of Stormont, and if the families, who are from right across the North, gather there again this year, I hope that every party will come out and talk to them. They are the people who have already lost their loved ones, and we need to take guidance from them about what we can do better and about how we can do it better.

I thank the Minister for personally meeting some of the families a number of weeks ago. I look forward to meeting, alongside him, the People's Kitchen charity. It is about directly meeting the people who are impacted on by these issues. The People's Kitchen works with some of the most vulnerable people who are, sadly, homeless and who are injecting on the streets.

As for cross-departmental working, the structure for that is already there in the Executive subgroup that was set up a number of years ago on mental well-being, resilience and suicide prevention. That structure is there. It is about how we build on it. I genuinely think that the will is there, but how do we build on the cross-departmental structure that we already have in place?

I want to talk briefly on the responsibility of individual Departments. Health has a responsibility, as Diane said, in what it does with its budget and how it prioritises things. Do I think that people are getting health services at the point of need, be they for addiction, a mental health crisis or a mental illness? I do not. I do not think that we are there yet. There is much more that the Department of Health can, hopefully, do in the time ahead.

I will look at the Department of Education and what it's doing to address mental health. I welcome the Education Minister's recent announcement on reducing mobile phone usage in classrooms, which will have an impact on kids' well-being. Less screen time and more direct interaction are good things. Paul Givan has taken that positive step in Education, but hopefully he can take further steps, such as reintroducing the Happy Healthy Minds programme, which looked at the counselling provision that we have across our schools and youth clubs. It is about how you get into early intervention at the earliest possible stage.

What more can the Department of Justice do to address mental health and addiction in prisons? How can it improve wrap-around care and rehabilitation for people in the prison system? How can it tackle the circulation and use of drugs in our prisons? Are there any plans to try to prevent the production and sale of the vapes filled with spice that are circulating in schools?

I was at a mental health conference about two years ago, one of the speakers was asked, "What is the biggest cause of the mental health challenges here in the North?", and he just nailed it when he said, "Poverty, poverty, poverty". What more can the Department for Communities do to introduce an anti-poverty strategy to try to deal with homelessness and the people who are on the streets? It has been flagged up that there might be possible cuts to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive's out-of-hours service, which deals with those people who sleep on the streets and who inject drugs — the most vulnerable. When you talk about people with poor mental health, that is it. We need to be really conscious of all that. Hopefully, that is what the Executive subgroup can talk about and take on head first.

To finish, Diane mentioned the work of the New Script mental health activists.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Time is up.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Their approach is around the fundamental shift in how we deal with mental health. That is the place where we all need to get to.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

I thank the SDLP for tabling this motion. As one of my party's spokespersons on health, I welcome the focus on health and especially mental health in these Opposition day motions.

We have a mental health crisis in Northern Ireland, as has been pointed out. It is extremely concerning that the number of people whom we have lost to suicide is now higher than the number of people who lost their lives in the Troubles. Tackling poor mental health and suicide prevention must be a priority for the Minister of Health and the Executive as a whole. It is welcome that the draft Programme for Government references mental health in reference to other Departments. To give an example, the Programme for Government refers to the importance of sport to both physical and mental health and the development of local sports facilities, which is a responsibility for the Minister for Communities.

We need to address the causes of poor mental health and its overlap with deprivation and the legacy of the Troubles. In 2023, one in five adults in Northern Ireland was prescribed an antidepressant. The highest uptake — 27% — was in the poorest areas of Northern Ireland, which are, largely, the same areas that were most heavily impacted on by the conflict. That represents a fourfold rise in the prescribing of antidepressants in the past 20 years. There has also been a rise in the provisional figures for deaths by suicide, as mentioned by Órlaithí, from 203 in 2022 to 221 in 2023. As mentioned, we should be aware of the fact that these are people's lives and families. The percentage of suicides in 2022 was three times higher in Northern Ireland's most deprived areas than in the least deprived areas. We need a more urgent response from the Department of Health to address the crisis.

The mental health strategy was a welcome step towards reform and transformation of our mental health services, and we need to see its full implementation. Some progress has been made on its 35 actions, but not enough. We also need an update on the implementation of the Department's Protect Life 2 suicide prevention strategy, which was extended last year to the end of 2027. Restricting access to means is one of the most effective ways of reducing the risk of suicide, and, as part of the Protect Life 2 strategy, the Minister of Health must work collaboratively, particularly with the Minister for Infrastructure, to identify and progress any urgent work to prevent further loss of life to suicide.

Targets to address the prevalence of anxiety, depression and other mental health conditions must also be introduced by the Department of Health, along with actions that can be taken to address and reduce those conditions. They should address all relevant age groups, with particular consideration given to children and young people and to older people. We need to see clear evidence that these strategies and actions are having a positive impact on the delivery of services. The lack of data on mental health services remains a huge issue, as highlighted by a number of organisations, including the Office for Statistics Regulation, the Northern Ireland Audit Office and, most recently, the Assembly's Public Accounts Committee. We need to know that the decisions being made and taken through these strategies represent the best value for money and are improving necessary mental health services.

Overlong mental health waiting lists result in people who need support very quickly not getting it, and, inevitably, their condition gets a lot worse. We know that much mental health support comes from the community and voluntary sector. Action 17 of the mental health strategy is to:

"Fully integrate community and voluntary sector".

That is being commenced, but agreement is being sought on the best way forward. As we will no doubt hear later, many of those community services also rely on funding, which, as we know, is very constrained.

Many Members will be aware of postnatal depression and perinatal mental health, and I commend Claire Sugden for speaking so openly on the issue this morning. Depressive symptoms are very common during and after pregnancy, and the recent study of maternal health and maternal morbidity (MAMMI) in Ireland by Trinity College in Dublin was discussed at last week's North/South Inter-Parliamentary Association meeting, which was the first since 2016. I congratulate the Speaker on his involvement in making that important meeting happen. The study showed that 9·3% of respondents experienced depressive symptoms before pregnancy, 12·2% during pregnancy, 17·7% three months after the birth of their first child and 12·8% a year postpartum. Yet, many women were not asked about feeling depressed or low by their GP, midwife or public health nurse.

Clearly, much needs to be done to support women suffering from mental health conditions related to childbirth, and, while we recognise the progress of delivering perinatal mental health services across all five trusts in Northern Ireland, we will continue to push for the delivery of an inpatient mother-and-baby unit in Northern Ireland.

As the chair of the all-party group on addiction and dual diagnosis, I am hugely concerned about the level of addiction and the number of deaths from drug overdose in our communities, as mentioned by Órlaithí Flynn. We need to progress to a harm reduction model, and we need to progress an overdose prevention centre in Northern Ireland to help to save the lives of people who are using drugs. In short, we know that we are in a crisis, and we need to focus on solutions.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

The very important motion and amendment, call on us to face the stark and distressing reality of mental health service provision and how people across Northern Ireland are suffering. As already outlined, regrettably, we find ourselves in a situation where more people have tragically lost their lives to suicide than to the Troubles. However, it would be absolutely remiss of us not to understand that the nature of our Troubles is being played out in intergenerational trauma, which obviously has an impact on the high prevalence of suicides, mental health issues and addictions in this country.

I ask the mover of the motion to reflect on what I will say. I understand fully why he and his party are reluctant to accept the amendment. However, when I read the next paragraph, I ask him to reflect on it and take me at my word, because having this gentleman, Mike Nesbitt, as the Minister of Health in the Executive is better than a rubber stamp on any Programme for Government in this sense, and I hope that the Member will listen in.

As we reflect on the magnitude of this crisis, we must also acknowledge the tireless efforts that have been made over the past number of years to address mental health. I will give the man sitting to my left the credit for that, because, in 2015, Mike Nesbitt, as the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, commissioned the first stand-alone policy paper on mental health from any political party in Northern Ireland. That groundbreaking moment sparked conversations in the Chamber that I, with pride, will always be grateful that I was able to have, because, in 2016, he appointed me as the dedicated mental health spokesperson. I am not sure whether that was a first for any party in the UK, but it certainly was on this island. That demonstrated our commitment and that of this gentleman, the Health Minister and Ulster Unionist Party leader, to tackle the issue. However, we need to be clear that, whilst progress has been made, it has been painfully slow. Only through sheer determination and doggedness did the Ulster Unionist Party manage to achieve an agreement in 2020 on a 10-year mental health strategy as part of the New Decade, New Approach deal. We also secured the appointment of an independent mental health champion. Those were critical steps forward, albeit they were not enough, and they were taken in the face of objections to achieving them previously.

I stand before you today not to celebrate those milestones but to remind us of the work that still needs to be done. The motion calls on the Minister of Health to work with Executive colleagues to:

"make the prevention of suicide a priority across all Departments".

That is because one Department alone fulfilling responsibilities for the health service is not enough to address societal issues that require a whole-of-government approach. Mental health is affected by education, housing, employment, social services and, as has been picked out, poverty, to name but a few factors. If we do not recognise that interconnectedness, we are setting ourselves up to fail.

We must also recognise the particular vulnerabilities of different groups, such as young people, especially those who are affected by adverse childhood experiences, including trauma, poverty, bullying, particularly online, and unmet or undiagnosed mental health needs. The fact that those people remain on long waiting lists for essential services hurts us all. It is not just tragic. If people are left unattended, that is a dereliction of our duties. Women, particularly those who are in the perinatal phase and those who have been affected by violence or abuse, are at greater risk of poor mental health and suicide. Let us not forget the stark reality that men are four times more likely to die by suicide. Those statistics are not just numbers; they represent lives cut short, families devastated and communities left in mourning.

What underpins the failure to transform mental health services? Many will focus on funding, but — I am not pointing the finger here — we have to face the truth that, in some part, the failure to transform comes from the lack of effective government and governance. Between 2017 and 2019 and between 2022 and 2024, Northern Ireland suffered from political instability whereby government collapsed. Those five years without a functioning Executive have not just stifled progress but added to the burden on those who are suffering poor mental health. I will accept that it was, perhaps, without intent, but it is an unmitigated fact that I will face anybody on. We should be talking about health and suicide ideation until we have fixed them.

I spoke about the need for interconnectedness. This is where that comes from. The Protect Life 2 strategy provides a blueprint for action. It:

"sets ambitions which will only be achieved by working together across government departments and with stakeholders from all sectors of society. Effective prevention is a collective responsibility. It requires a sustained collaborative and co-ordinated response across government, statutory and community services".

How can we achieve that if there is no functioning government to take ownership of those challenges? I call on everyone to recognise that today.

Gary Middleton (DUP, Foyle)

I thank the Member who tabled today's motion. From the outset, I join others in remembering all those who have died as the result of suicide and in thinking of their families and friends. I also think of all those who are suffering with mental health issues, be they our family, friends, neighbours or, indeed, people in the Chamber. Mental health affects us all. That is why mental health provision and access to help and support must be a priority for not only the Minister and his Department but the entire Executive and all of us in the Assembly.

Our amendment, which my colleague Mrs Dodds moved, speaks to the fact that we need to utilise every resource that we have in order to prioritise resilience and coping mechanisms from an early age. Whilst the motion is right to highlight the need for a cross-cutting approach to suicide and suicide-specific interventions, it is important that we look at poor mental health in the round.

That means cross-departmental working to tackle some of the challenges that bring about mental illness: socio-economic determinants, deprivation, online harms, addiction and trauma. In turn, by tackling those issues, which are mentioned throughout the draft Programme for Government, we can tackle the disparity between suicide rates in the most and least deprived areas and go some way to addressing the poor mental health that faces so many in our community. One of my questions to the Minister is this: what work is he doing proactively in his Department to bring Departments together and to lead the discussions on that front?

It is also alarming and unacceptable that over 1,026 children were waiting for more than nine weeks to see the child and adolescent mental health services at the end of March this year; that was 52% of the children who were waiting. We need to see a plan to address those waiting times. Those children deserve that early intervention. I note that there have been positive programmes, not least through the Department of Education and the Education Authority (EA). The resilience education assisting change to happen (REACH) programme is one such programme for children. It is about building resilience and helping them to deal with some of the challenges that are not only of the past but of the 21st century. We need to see more of that type of work.

When we talk about support for those struggling with mental health disorders, it is important to recognise that it affects people of all ages. We cannot progress the discussion without mentioning the issue of access to GPs: it is a fundamental issue that we must address. There has been positive work with the multidisciplinary teams, but we need to see our GP surgeries become hubs for people who present with issues such as mental ill health.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for giving way. My concern is for those who slip through the net. Last year, I dealt in person with three people who were suicidal. They either did not know where to go or could not get the services, and, fortunately, I was able to help them. However, for every person who gets help, other people slip through the net and, unfortunately, the outcome is not good. Will the Member accept that access to services and knowing where to get help is crucial?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Member has an extra minute.

Gary Middleton (DUP, Foyle)

Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker.

I thank the Member for his intervention. He is absolutely right: access and knowing where to go is vital. That is why GP surgeries should be one part of the mechanism and should be a hub to ensure that those who present with serious difficulties know that they have a place to turn to. It is also important to note, when we talk about people who slip through the net, that, in many cases, charities and the voluntary sector are vital in ensuring that people have somewhere to go.

On Friday, with Foyle MLA colleagues, I attended the opening of a fantastic new facility for a charity called HURT (Have Your Tomorrows), which was established in 2001. It was started through tragedy, but many lives have been saved through that charity. Another charity, which, no doubt, the Minister will have heard of, is the Men's Action Network (MAN). Unfortunately, after 30 years, it has had to close its doors, which means that the 750 men who availed themselves of those services, not least for mental health, have nowhere to go.

I call on the Minister to prioritise those issues. Terms such as "invest to save" are bandied about. Sometimes, I do not like that term because, effectively, we are trying to save lives, and we cannot put a value on the cost to a family.

I wholeheartedly support the amendment tabled by my colleagues, and I urge people to get behind it. Ultimately, however, whatever motions we pass in the Assembly today, it requires action, and there is an onus on all of us to deliver on those commitments.

Peter McReynolds (Alliance, Belfast East)

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the motion today, and I thank the Opposition for tabling it. It is not the most detailed or lengthy motion that I have seen — I do not mean that as a criticism — but it is probably one of the most important that the Opposition have tabled. It seeks to make sure that we in the Chamber never forget the high rate of mental health issues that many people in Northern Ireland live with and the need for the Assembly and our Executive to take mental health seriously.

I am an MLA for East Belfast, but I was born in north Belfast, which, tragically, has well-documented high rates of suicide and mental health issues. Thankfully, I have not had a friend or family member take their life, but, at one point in my brother's fourth or fifth year at school, sadly, four students took their life across one academic year. That had a profound impact on the school and the students. The gym that I go to is run by Rory Girvan, another person from north Belfast. He launched the 33 Til' Infinity campaign to raise money in honour of Michael Cullen, who, sadly, took his life in 2018. I remember being nudged during a Belfast City Council committee to be told that Michael had been found, after the community in north Belfast had rallied for over a week to try to find him. I echo Órlaithí's point about the families of victims of suicide. I was there for the vigil last year, and I encourage Members to attend it, if it is held again, for a truly humbling and insightful experience.

Asking the question, "Are you thinking about suicide?" is a sobering but important skill that can provide the right intervention at the right time, something that I learnt during a training session with the incredible East Belfast Survivors of Suicide in 2014. I did not expect to use that training the very next day with a constituent who walked into our constituency office to discuss housing issues when the conversation took a dark turn.

My work with the ADHD community is well documented. It will not surprise anyone to hear that people living with ADHD are three to five times more likely to attempt to take their life and, sadly, to be successful. ADHD is a more common condition in Northern Ireland than we think. It is treatable — medication is 95% effective — but the service that we offer here was recently described to me by a GP as "a pretend service". Unless someone pays to go private, our waiting lists are hitting eight to 10 years for a diagnosis, even if that person is lucky enough to get an appointment, as demand is surging. Unfortunately, that is another example of how we fail neurodiverse people and those living with mental health issues.

I outline those examples not for dramatic effect but because they are the realities that people have faced in Northern Ireland in recent years and face in the present day. We know the statistics. We know that prevention and early intervention work. We know that there should be a cohesive and comprehensive approach, from GPs to hospitals, because many people fall through the cracks even after approaching the right people for support. We know that investing now will save money in the long term and, crucially, will save lives.

I end my contribution by acknowledging the work of former Alliance councillor David Armitage. He recently told me that, if it had not been for his church, his friends and Claire Curran from East Belfast Survivors of Suicide, an intensely overworked charity that does life-saving work, he simply would not be here. That is what government is for, and it shows the importance of having the institutions functioning as they should all year round, for 365 days a year, with Ministers in post for key decisions to be made for everyone in Northern Ireland.

Michelle Guy (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member who tabled the motion. I will focus on mental health provision and support for our children and young people. The statistics tell a story. The results of the Northern Ireland youth wellbeing prevalence survey indicate that 12·1% of 11-to-19-year-olds in Northern Ireland have thought about or attempted suicide. The CAMHS waiting list from March this year showed that almost 2,000 young people were waiting for an assessment. Those statistics for adolescents are a particular worry, given that those are their formative years.

The World Health Organization (WHO) states:

"Suicide is the fourth leading cause of death among 15-29 year-olds."

That is a shocking figure. It further notes:

"The consequences of failing to address adolescent mental health conditions extend to adulthood, impairing both physical and mental health and limiting opportunities to lead fulfilling lives as adults."

Statistics do no justice to the individual stories of pain that they represent or to the complexity of the circumstances that have caused the mental health condition to develop. Over the weekend, I took time to speak to Matthew Taylor, a young man living in Lisburn who has openly talked about his mental health struggles, which eventually resulted in inpatient care. He tells of an uneven experience. Matthew got help and is grateful for it, but, in some early interactions, he was simply not believed. He was told that he was selfish and that, if he was serious, he would have tried to kill himself already.

It is crucial that, when people take the difficult step to ask for help, especially when our resources are so constrained, our pathways do not fail from within. Excellent work is being done to help young people who are suffering with mental health issues. Parents, guardians, healthcare professionals, teachers, community clubs and more are working to ensure the well-being of children. However, the need is so great that more support is required. As Matthew's experience highlights, we have to ensure that services do not fail those in crisis. Staff who interact with anyone presenting in mental distress should have a basic level of training to ensure appropriate triage and referral. As with so many things, evidence tells us that early intervention is essential; cross-departmental working and multi-year Budgets are a must; and we need to not just keep producing strategies but to implement actions.

The Public Accounts Committee produced a stark report on our mental health services and where the mental health strategy stands. The disappointing progress on implementation to date that it notes is, in large part, down to the fact that only £10 million of the £35 million deemed necessary for 2023-24 was allocated. Perhaps it is time that we stopped saying, "We can't afford to do these things", and accepted that we cannot afford not to do them. The words that really jump off the page in the PAC report are those that note that the majority of the work that has been done to date would not be felt by users. The actions that we take must be felt by those who are suffering. The mental health champion identified clear ways for impact to be felt, the number-one priority being the workforce and the need to grow the CAMHS and therapies workforces, yet little appears to have been done directly on that.

While some good progress has been made through Education and Health working in partnership on the emotional health and well-being framework, for instance, we still have not had the funding for Healthy Happy Minds restored. Its absence can create unacceptable inequities within families. For example, a year 8 child in a family experiencing bereavement can receive counselling through school, but that child's sibling in primary school will receive no support. More fundamentally, the independent review of education noted clear examples where the system itself creates unnecessary stress and anxiety that can lead to or exacerbate mental health issues. Specifically, I refer to our SEN crisis and our current approach to assessment. I look forward to the Education Minister bringing forward an extensive departmental response to that review.

On page 44 of our mental health strategy is the line:

"Children and young people should receive the care and treatment they need, when they need it, without barriers or limitations."

Those cannot be just words on a page in a strategy.

Timothy Gaston (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

This is a motion that every Member will be able to relate to. Every Member will be able to cite examples of how the current system fails our constituents, who often turn to our offices for assistance and signposting. Prior to coming to the House, I spent four years in Jim Allister's constituency office, where I regularly encountered people spanning all age groups who were struggling with their mental health for a variety of reasons. I recall the mother whose primary-school child was self-harming with a pencil in the school toilet and an elderly man who, through failing health, simply lost his purpose and the will to live. I think of the young lad who had fallen into an addiction and the father who, through redundancy, struggled to provide for his family. That is the reality of Northern Ireland in 2024. The common problem that I have found when dealing with broken people is the lack of statutorily funded organisations with enough resources to meet their needs.

Over the past 15 years, Ballymena has had its fair share of heartache. I want to talk briefly about a local charity that has become a lifeline to many people locally. In May 2025, Turning Point NI will be 10 years old. That charity was formed by local people as a reaction to the many young lives in the area being lost through suicide. Throughout the past 10 years, the charity has depended on lottery funding, as well as the generosity of local communities, to sustain itself. Turning Point employs nine staff, with its lottery funding due to finish at the end of March 2025. I will put that in the context of the local demand: as of this morning, there are 90 people on Turning Point's waiting list to commence a six- to eight-week programme. Many of those referrals have come from statutory bodies, such as CAMHS.

In financial terms, Turning Point estimates that, last year, through statutory referrals alone, the counselling sessions that it provided saved the trust £70,000. Members, that work came about without any help or funding from the trust.

If we want to address the elephant in the room when it comes to mental health provision and suicide rates, we need look no further than that stark reality. Too much pressure is being put on the community and voluntary sector to pick up the crisis that the NHS is in. I asked the charity what key message it would like shared with MLAs today, and this — Turning Point NI's urgent call for support — is the response that I got:

"For the past 10 years, Turning Point NI has been a vital resource for our community, providing essential support for individuals facing mental health challenges. As we approach the end of our lottery funding in March 2025, we find ourselves in a critical situation. We are currently experiencing a mental health epidemic, characterized by increasing rates of suicide, substance abuse, and self-harm among young people. Our waiting list for life-saving services continues to grow, and despite the pressing demand, our resources are severely limited. Regrettably, we have not received any government support to address these urgent needs. Therefore, we are reaching out for assistance to ensure that our dedicated team can continue their crucial work in supporting individuals in our community who are experiencing suicidal ideation and mental health crises."

My goodness. How did we allow our mental health services, and our health service in general, to get to that point?

When we make the case to Treasury for additional funding, we need to do so in a context that demonstrates why we have an additional need. Our failing mental health services and high suicide rates are one of the many reasons that we need, first, to be funded to the level of need at £124 a head for every £100 a head spent in England. Once we get funded to that level of need, we must, once again, look to the Welsh model, which was designed by Holtham, where not only has Wales been funded to the level of need since 2012 but it secured an additional 5% uplift in 2018, which has been worth an additional £1·17 billion to cover the additional need. That is a huge amount of additional money. We must secure the equivalent figure for Northern Ireland and use it to address our unique local need, including tackling the legacy of the Troubles as it relates to mental health and suicide. Unless we get serious and start to fund those services adequately, we will sadly be speaking to motions like this in the many mandates to come.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

It is important that the Assembly and the Executive get to grips with the mental ill health epidemic that all our communities are facing but that is, obviously and always, more acutely felt by working-class and deprived communities, as has been said. The rich can avoid the daily grind and go on relaxation retreats when they want to, but everyone else has to focus on paying skyrocketing rents, paying for unaffordable childcare and being paid historically low wages and, of course, on dealing with depression, anxiety and suicide. As we have heard, those rates, tragically, are three times higher in more deprived areas.

I know that mental health workers, counsellors and other people in the sector are doing really important and, in many cases, literally life-saving work, but they are trying to push a boulder up a mountain. The system is completely broken and completely underfunded. The need is not reflected in the Budget allocations, and that situation needs to be addressed urgently.

We also have to ask — I am glad that the Minister is here — whether the Protect Life 2 strategy is ambitious enough and, more to the point, whether it has worked. Given the tragic suicide figures, I suggest that it has not. I have submitted some questions for written answer to tease out some information about that. We need to publish the review, which should happen ASAP. We had a rapid review, which was agreed in December 2023, but, like most things in this place, it is moving at a snail's pace and now needs to be published ASAP.

There are therefore massive questions about what the Department is doing around preventative mental health measures. We also have to ask whether decisions made by the Minister of Health and others in the Executive will increase anxiety and mental ill health, and possibly lead to worse. The previous Health Minister's decision to ban puberty blockers has already led to fear and anxiety shooting through the roof amongst our trans and non-binary community, which is a really marginalised and isolated community.

There are questions about that policy and whether it is doing anything good — it is not — for mental ill health. The decision by the Department for Communities and the Executive to cut the winter fuel payment for 250,000 pensioners is, I am sure, doing wonders for their mental health. A welfare system that dehumanises and literally punishes people in a Dickensian manner leads directly to more poverty and poor mental health.

All those issues and more are connected. We need to call out what the Executive have not done and have not committed to around mental health but also those economic and political decisions made by them that have battered people and led to worse mental health. People are products of their environment, they are shaped by it, and that is never more true than when talking about mental health. Having a no-silo mentality is always mentioned in Stormont but that is never more true than when talking about mental health.

Along with others, I recently met New Script for Mental Health, which is running a fantastic campaign. It is a family of campaigners and activists. I urge the Minister and his officials to meet the group, if they have not already done so. The main point taken from meeting them was that we are likely overprescribing antidepressants. No doubt, many people do need those prescriptions, but is society accepting the mass prescribing of antidepressants because it is cheaper than providing counselling, talking therapies and other labour-intensive but life-saving services? I would guess yes.

I commend those families that have been speaking out and holding people together through mental ill health and suicide crises. I thank all the campaigning groups that have been mentioned, but also others that have not but do that important work. Also, I want to mention West Wellbeing centre in my constituency, which does lifesaving and important work, including with members of my family, but which, despite a motion being passed in Belfast City Council a few months ago, is still waiting on the tens of thousands of pounds coming through from the council to provide extra counselling sessions and services. I call on those parties on Belfast City Council currently blocking that motion and money to get their act together and let the money be released.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I call the Minister of Health to respond to the debate. Minister, you have 15 minutes in which to speak.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Madam Principal Deputy Speaker, thank you very much. Thank you, too, to the movers of the motion and the amendment.

Mr McGrath, the mover of the motion, began by reminding us that we have lost more of our fellow citizens to suicide than we did during the course of what we euphemistically call our Troubles. I remember making that point a few years ago on a live debate on BBC Radio Ulster, and the host reacted as if he had been given an electric shock. We are talking about a very well-researched journalist. The point about that is that there is a lot more that we have to do in raising awareness, and to the extent to which this debate raises awareness of suicide and poor mental health, so much the better.

Mr Carroll asked whether the Protect Life 2 strategy was ambitious enough. That took me back to a meeting that Órlaithí Flynn chaired with the all-party group in Derry/Londonderry at, I think, the Magee campus of Ulster University when Protect Life 2 had just been published. We were debating the policy and the idea that the target was to reduce the number of suicides by 10%. We thought, "Gosh, that's not very ambitious". To be fair to officials, that is internationally based by, I think, the World Health Organization. It is a practical, achievable target, but we all agreed that it was not a target to be celebrated if we achieved it. None of us wants to go to one of the families that continue to lose loved ones through suicide and say, "Haven't we done well by reducing the rate by 10%?", because, for them, the loss is 100%. So, crudely, one suicide is one too many.

I believe, because the experts have told me, that every suicide is preventable right up to the moment when it takes place. As is often said, suicide tends to be a permanent solution to what is often a very temporary problem, emotion, feeling or set of circumstances.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Minister give way?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Yes.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

The Minister referenced what others euphemistically refer to as "the Troubles" and the electric shock that the BBC host had when he knew and understood that more people had died by suicide since 1998 than died during the Troubles. How many of those deaths could be attributable to the intergenerational trauma from the Troubles and the consequences of and hangover from the Troubles?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I am on record many, many, many times saying that, if you take a map of Northern Ireland and put on that map the hotspots of the Troubles measured by shootings, bombings and murders and then superimpose a contemporaneous map of mental health issues — completed and attempted suicides, drug and alcohol abuse etc — you will have a match. I mean somewhere like north Belfast, to pick one area, so, yes, the Member's point is well made.

The Protect Life 2 strategy was launched on World Suicide Prevention Day, 10 September, back in 2019, and it has now been extended to 2027. At least £12 million is spent annually on suicide prevention in Northern Ireland, and the strategy is also supported by activities in the mental health strategy. Of course, when the strategy was first published, it envisaged much greater investment and Executive-wide buy-in than has actually been the case. I have to say that, when it comes to those who supported the Budget, the irony klaxon has not been silent during this debate.

Mrs Dodds referred to the mental health champion expressing her disappointment at the allocation, and I really welcome the fact that Professor Siobhán O'Neill made those comments and made them so explicitly and so publicly, because having a mental health champion — an independent assessor — was my idea. The fact that she can make those remarks proves that she is an independent assessor. Indeed, more recently, I appointed an independent autism reviewer, and Members will recall her remarks from last week. Again, that shows that, in Ema Cubitt, we have an independent person at work, and I really welcome that.

The strategy on suicide prevention has 10 objectives that I hope will achieve better outcomes. The first has great significance to today's motion. It seeks to:

"Ensure a collaborative, co-ordinated cross departmental approach to suicide prevention."

The leader of the Opposition and Members will be aware of the Executive working group on mental well-being, resilience and suicide prevention, which Mr Middleton wanted me to refer to. The group plays an important role in ensuring that all Executive Ministers are informed of and involved in the governance of the Protect Life 2 strategy. The group was established in recognition of the fact that suicide is a societal issue and that it cannot be solved by the Department of Health alone but requires efforts across all sections of society. It requires each Executive Department to recognise and step up to the fact that it has a critical role to play.

It is widely acknowledged that many factors can impact on suicide — for example, financial difficulties, poor employment or a lack of housing opportunities — and the Executive group affords important opportunities for Ministers to hear at first hand from stakeholders about the impact of suicide and about exactly what is needed to improve outcomes and to prevent suicide and self-harm. The group also provides a forum for Ministers to hear about some of the great work being done in our communities, and I think that working in the communities is the key to better outcomes.

I have agreed that the group should be reformed, and we could usefully discuss having a wider remit to focus not just on mental well-being and suicide prevention but on the wider public health aspect. Some Members mentioned my commitment to tackling public health, including by tackling health inequalities, and I believe that that broader focus will help to address the wider social determinants that are linked with poor mental and physical health. On that basis, I affirm that I am a fan of Professor Michael Marmot, a man who talks about not just the causes of ill health but the causes of the causes. For example, we know that smoking causes cancer, but what causes people to smoke in the first place? That, I think, is how we unlock better outcomes for people.

The advantage of the wider group that I am talking about would be that the societal determinants of mental health are the same as those for physical health outcomes, including individuals' experiences in early years, education, housing, employment opportunities, the physical environment and exposure to pollutants, and access to a healthy diet. It is essential to address those social determinants in order to improve the physical and mental health outcomes of our population. The group will also ensure that there is greater synchronicity across strategies, given the close linkages between mental health, physical health, substance abuse and suicide prevention.

While suicide prevention is not explicitly mentioned in the draft Programme for Government, I always welcome the opportunity to work with other Departments in that area. Much excellent work is already being taken forward with other Departments, and I will take the opportunity to highlight some of it. For example, the Department for Communities has rolled out a mental health first aid pilot scheme across the Department. DFC has also ensured that suicide prevention training is mandatory for all front-line staff, and it has a six-point plan for managing suicide and self-harm declarations that are received from claimants, whether that is in person, in a phone call, in writing or via electronic media. The Department of Justice supports suicide prevention efforts through the PSNI's contribution to the multi-agency triage team. The PSNI has also developed an online mental health lesson plan for police officers. That is aimed at increasing awareness of mental health as a significant public health issue in Northern Ireland and preparing officers to deal with the sometimes challenging incidents that they encounter where no crime has been committed but an individual is experiencing a mental health or emotional crisis. The PSNI already trains all student officers in suicide prevention rather than in just suicide awareness. Some Members will be aware that the Chief Constable, Jon Boutcher, intends to introduce a policy called "Right care, right person" (RCRP) in recognition of the fact that police officers are not fully trained to deal with all mental health issues. I look forward to working with the PSNI to determine the best way to roll out the "Right care, right person" policy.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Will the Minister give way?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I absolutely will give way to the Member.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Thank you very much, Minister. You referenced training on suicide prevention. I met your officials about that, and I plan to bring a private Member's Bill to the House that will make it a statutory obligation for every Department to provide suicide prevention training for all their front-facing public staff. I know that that is a conversation for the time ahead, but, hopefully, the Minister and all Departments can take it on board.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for the intervention. I am in favour of Departments offering suicide prevention training. I pause at the idea of making it compulsory for every member of front-line staff, however, given that that person may have had experience in their family or community circles. I think, Principal Deputy Speaker, that the Member is sympathetic to that. I pay tribute to the Member, because, through chairing the all-party group on suicide prevention, her work on understanding and promotion is absolutely exemplary not just on this issue but on cross-party and cross-community cooperation. I commend the Member for that.

I go back to Protect Life 2, which contains a number of programmes designed to prevent suicide. They include Towards Zero Suicide, the multi-agency triage team collaboration between Health and Social Care (HSC) and the police; resilience building; counselling provision; the self-harm intervention programme; the "Flourish" church suicide prevention initiative; and Lifeline, to name but a few. We have undertaken extensive research and engagement to better shape the future of suicide prevention service delivery here. A review of Protect Life 2 has just been completed and is now available on the departmental website. That review has highlighted the need for a more focused and measurable action plan. To achieve that, work is well under way on revising the action plan in line with that report and to develop a new three-year delivery plan. That will set out the detail of how we will deliver actions and the targets that we wish to achieve.

The action plan highlighted a new strategic action area around a whole-of-government-and-society approach. As I bring my remarks towards a close, I want to talk about the need for a societal approach. Mrs Dodds asked me to comment on prescribing rates. They are shocking, and that is a sign — a symptom, perhaps — of the fact that, to some extent, we over-medicalise how we approach mental ill health. Pills and medication have their place, but so do societal interventions. For example, a community psychiatric nurse sitting in somebody's kitchen, offering the human touch and saying, "Let's go on this journey together. I'll walk with you. I know how to get you to a better place", is important. I have also felt that, for a long time, societal interventions, empowering communities to understand the members of that community, to spot when they are not as they should be and to know how to intervene are important.

Órlaithí Flynn mentioned Christmas trees. I am a member of the Ards suicide awareness group, which I helped to set up a few years ago, and, last Christmas, we put a tree in Tesco on the Castlebawn Road in Newtownards. On the table, there were a lot of blank cards, and I sat one afternoon and watched individuals and families lift one of the cards, write a note on it and put it on the tree. There was a shockingly high number of people. For them, the importance of that simple gesture was exponential. It was out of kilter. It reminded me of the scale of the problem and the fact that, if we can tackle it as a community, we have a chance.

It seems to me that, if we really want to make a difference, there are three things that we need to do. First, we need to raise awareness, and, once again, I thank Members for using the debate to raise awareness. Secondly, we need agreement on how to cure the problem or, at least, how to address it and take a bite out of it. Thirdly, we need to devise a policy with a fully funded and resourced action plan that gives meaning to our determination to cure or tackle the problem. If we can do all three things, we will achieve better outcomes, and, if we achieve better outcomes, we will offer hope. Hope, for me, is success.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Minister. I call Alan Robinson to make a winding-up speech on the amendment. Alan, you have five minutes.

Alan Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

It is with profound regret that we have had to debate the state of mental health provision in the Province. Despite the progress that we have made in some areas, the state of mental healthcare remains deeply troubling. The sour truth is that the number of lives lost to suicide in Northern Ireland exceeds the number of those who lost their lives during the Troubles. Its trajectory tells us that those figures may indeed get worse. Figures from December 2023 tell us that 17,500 people are waiting for a first appointment. I have no doubt that we would be staring at even starker figures had it not been for the £10 million that was secured by my party via the confidence-and-supply agreement that allowed additional investment in mental health services over a five-year period. As has been stated on the Floor many times, without timely interventions, people's conditions will descend into further decline, and, ultimately, their conditions will become more costly to treat or they will be lost to suicide.

The Department tells us that, without additional funding and the ability to invest in the workforce, it will struggle to address waiting lists. On top of that, the Secretary of State tells us that we must live within our means. For someone on that long waiting list, if we were to be honest, very sadly, as things stand, there is no extra money and little hope.

Emergency departments will continue to be the fallback position for so many in desperate need, placing further strain on an already struggling health service and adding further pressure to our education and justice systems. Then, we have the situation where those on the outer fringes, such as the community and voluntary sector, which has picked up the slack in providing support for those with mental health issues, have had their funding slashed. It is like a never-ending circle of despair. I fear that we will be having these conversations in a debate on a similar motion before the end of the mandate and that those who come after us will debate these issues in a new mandate just like those before us debated them.

I turn to some of the points that were made. Gary Middleton talked about using everything in our power to deal with the issue and about how 1,026 children are on mental health waiting lists. He also called for greater access to GP services. The proposer of the motion rightly paid tribute to groups that are at the coalface of the mental health crisis and said rightly that one life lost was too many. Diane Dodds spoke eloquently, as she usually does. She mentioned that only £9 million had been allocated to the mental health strategy. She also referred to the impact of the Troubles. Órlaithí Flynn highlighted how drug- and alcohol-related deaths have doubled. Danny Donnelly talked about the importance of sport in dealing with health. Robbie Butler referred to the impact of our violent past and to how men are four times more likely to die by suicide. Peter McReynolds said that the motion was one of the most important to have been tabled by the Opposition. Michelle Guy talked about a young constituent, Matthew Taylor. She also referred to the findings and recommendations of a recent PAC report. Timothy Gaston talked about how he has met people of all ages who are affected. He praised the work of Turning Point. Gerry Carroll said that, for groups, it is like pushing a boulder up a mountain. He rightly talked about the cut to the winter fuel payment, which will affect people's mental health.

We know that the devastating impacts of mental health disorders, anxiety, depression and other mental illnesses affect people of all ages across Northern Ireland, and the burden of those conditions does not discriminate. It affects children, young adults, parents and grandparents. It affects us all. Every one of us in the Chamber can point to a family member who has suffered or is suffering. Despite the scale of the problem, our mental health services are simply woefully inadequate to meet the growing demands.

I hope that the Assembly can support my party's amendment. It is broad in nature — we get that — but the meaning is there. I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate. It has been a worthy debate and has set the right tone.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you very much, Alan.

As Question Time begins at 2.00 pm, I suggest that the Assembly takes its ease until then. The debate will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be Mark Durkan, who will make the winding-up speech on the motion. The Assembly will take its ease.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Infrastructure

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Question 11 has been withdrawn.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

1. Mr Carroll asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline the rationale for changing the 10J and 10K bus services in Belfast. (AQO 855/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

It is an operational decision taken by Translink. However, my Department has taken the time to request the information from Translink. Translink has advised that the 10J and 10K services were extended from Glencolin some years ago in order to have a through service from Twinbrook and to replace the original 10E feeder service. Translink recently acknowledged that that model did not work, hence the return to the previous version of the 10J and 10K, with the reinstatement of the 10E service throughout the week.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

Thank you, Minister. This is not the first time that a transport change has been made in West Belfast without the people impacted being consulted or notified. There used to be four hourly bus services going up the Suffolk Road; there are now two. Minister, there was, reportedly, a heated meeting between unions and Translink about the specific decision regarding 10J and 10K. Are you aware of that meeting? If not, will you investigate and report on the issue?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am not aware of the meeting. I am happy to make enquiries to Translink in that regard. As I said, it is an operational decision by Translink. The legislation sets out what is Translink's role and what is my role. While I am happy to follow up on the Member's request, he will understand that it is not my responsibility to manage everything that goes on in Translink day-to-day. I expect it to have good a working relationship with the unions, but that is an ongoing matter between Translink and the unions.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will extend the interest in the Belfast bus routes slightly towards the South Antrim boundary but staying within the city. Will the Minister give us any further information or updates on the introduction of the anticipated north/south Glider route?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member will understand that it is difficult for a Minister at Question Time to discuss every bus and Translink route across the country. I am not sure that that would benefit Question Time either. I am more than happy to —

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Oh, Minister.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Well, I am sure that there are several thousand Translink bus routes. I could stand here all day and read them out, but that would test the patience of the Speaker. I am more than happy to get the information that the Member has requested and forward it to him.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

It is normally me who does the rebuking, Mr O'Dowd, but I will allow you away with it this time, because you were right.

[Laughter.]

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

2. Ms Ennis asked the Minister for Infrastructure when remedial works will be carried out to repair landslides at Shore Road, Rostrevor, and Kilkeel Road, Hilltown, following the heavy rainfall and flooding last November. (AQO 856/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I recognise the inconvenience caused by the temporary closure of one lane of the Shore Road, Rostrevor, and the Kilkeel Road, Hilltown, due to landslips caused by the unprecedented weather in November 2023. My Department has appointed a specialist geotechnical engineer to assist in design solutions. However, the scale and complexity of the work required at both locations means that it will take time to deliver permanent and cost-effective solutions.

Regarding the A2 Shore Road, a temporary design solution has been developed to allow two-way traffic. We await environmental approvals from NIEA to allow the work to go ahead. Our contractor is ready to carry out the work as soon as approval comes through.

The landslip on the Kilkeel Road in Hilltown is likely to require a complex solution, as the embankment on either side has become unstable. It will therefore take additional time to investigate it thoroughly, complete a design and implement that design. I assure the Member that my Department will continue to prioritise that work to allow two-way traffic as soon as possible.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his response. I know that he understands the disruption that this has caused, particularly on the A2 Shore Road. Will he guarantee that he is giving the necessary push, especially to the NIEA and the other Departments that have responsibility, to make sure that the A2 Shore Road is opened permanently to two-way traffic as soon as possible?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member has raised that issue with me on a number of occasions. We will organise a visit to the site at some stage. The initial landslide was quickly cleared, but there remained a risk because the embankment was unstable. As a result, my Department installed temporary measures.

The land in the area is of outstanding natural beauty, with several environmental designations. That restricts the work that can be undertaken. My Department, DAERA, the Forest Service and Environment Agency officials have had regular engagement to progress the matter. Engineers are now content that a temporary solution can be put in place to allow a full recovery of the road. My Department is awaiting environmental approval to proceed with the work.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I call Sian Mulholland. I want to hear what you have to say about Rostrevor or Hilltown.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

I was going to say that there are not that many landslides in Northern Ireland, so hopefully I will not be rebuked for talking about a different landslide.

Minister, as you know, an entire farming community was cut off owing to a landslide on the Glenshesk Road. It has been nearly a year for that community, so can the Department provide any updates? Sorry to Rostrevor and Kilkeel. Much as they are of interest to me, I will focus on the landslide in North Antrim.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I dare not rebuke you, given that the Speaker did not.

The landslide in the area to which the Member refers is significant. It is another one that requires a significant engineering solution, if one can be found, given the scale of the landslide and the undermining of roadworks in the area. My officials continue to work to see whether we can identify a solution. Both incidents came about as a result of torrential rainfall. We have seen a significant change in the pattern and intensity of our rainfall. That is a reminder of the impact that climate change is having on our society.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

3. Mr Butler asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on the A1 Hillsborough to Newry dual carriageway upgrade project. (AQO 857/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The proposed A1 junctions phase 2 scheme from Hillsborough to Loughbrickland has been developed to address the most prevalent safety issues on 25 kilometres of the dual carriageway, particularly focusing on the closure of all gaps in the central median, including the installation of a concrete safety barrier, the provision of four grade-separated junctions, the closure of nine minor roads that connect with the A1 and the altering of all remaining roads and accesses to operate on a left in/left out basis only.

Preparation for the procurement process is now under way, involving the finalisation of the contract documents in readiness for a formal procurement competition. The process is due to commence next month and last between 12 and 15 months. Construction is planned to begin in February 2026 and continue to completion over the following three years.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I hope that he will forgive me as I pay tribute to two people who died on the road. One was a former Fire and Rescue Service colleague and one a friend with whom I grew up.

I know that the Minister is wedded to delivery. The Minister outlined the time frame for the completion of the project: will he also outline the cost implications and say whether there are any budgetary pressures? Can we get a commitment that the project will be delivered on time, regardless of budget?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am not sure that I can say "regardless of budget", because a procurement exercise is going on and we want to get the best value for the public purse. The current cost estimates for the scheme are around £110 million to £120 million. That will come out of my Department's budget. I have already made a commitment to move ahead with the scheme, and that commitment remains.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I appreciate the Minister's update on the A1, which also travels through our constituency of Upper Bann. There are huge implications for life and safety along that route.

The wider issue surrounding Hillsborough has been long in the press as to the severe traffic congestion that it faces, particularly as a rat run for many large heavy goods vehicles. I know that the Department has looked at the issue: is there any further update that the Minister can provide to the House?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

This has been raised with me on several occasions, and my officials have carried out studies to see whether there is a solution for Royal Hillsborough. We have not as yet found a solution that would not cause significant traffic congestion and disruption on outlying roads. I am due to meet the Member's party colleague, the deputy First Minister, in the coming weeks, and we will have further discussions about it.

David Honeyford (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Thank you for outlining the time frames of what we are doing. This is a vital upgrade of the A1, and, as others have said, the safety element is paramount. Is there anything that the Department can do in the short term to improve safety on the road now?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We will constantly keep under review any measures we can take to improve road safety, particularly on the A1, given its horrific traffic accident history. As I have said to Members before, the most effective way of improving road safety is changing road user behaviour. We have to ensure that, when we use the road, we act in a way that keeps us and others safe along that road.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

4. Mr Dunne asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on the draft report on the part-time 20 mph speed limits at schools review. (AQO 858/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am pleased to confirm that the review of the part-time 20 mph speed limit at schools initiative, which saw the facility introduced at 216 schools, is complete. I have had the opportunity to consider the review report and am content. However, I want to share the report with the Infrastructure Committee before it is published and have asked officials to make the necessary arrangements. I wish to explore how we introduce 20 mph speed limits in general and have requested a paper from my officials in regard to that matter.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for the answer. Will the Minister reiterate his commitment to improving road safety around our schools and provide a wee bit more on the time frame? When does he think he can move forward, and will he commit to increasing the number of 20 mph speed zones around our schools?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for that question. As I said, I want the Committee to be given the opportunity to review the report before I publish it. I expect that to happen within the next number of weeks. The report's findings have been positive, however, and it is good to see such feedback from teachers, pupils and parents in regard to the matter. It raised questions and perhaps even challenges as to how we move forward with the introduction of it, but I will leave that detail to another time.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Will the Minister tell us whether he has plans to roll out the School Streets initiative?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

For Members who are not familiar with the scheme, the School Streets initiative means that a designated street is closed off to all traffic at certain times of the day — obviously, the opening and closure times of the schools. We are looking at it as part of broader work on active travel and how we promote more active travel. Schools are a good example of where and when we can promote active travel, so it is part of that formula, and there will be discussions and consultations around it.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Following on from the theme that Mr Sheehan has raised — the School Streets initiative — there are in my constituency, South Belfast, umpteen examples of schools that would really benefit from at least testing the School Streets model, which is not just about safety but about air quality and, as you say, active travel. Will the Minister give us a specific timeline for when the Minister expects to be able to update us on whether it will be tested, at least in pilot, or rolled out further across the North?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I hope to be able to launch our active delivery plan for consultation in November. Links to schools and other attractors are priorities in that plan. Work in the area also includes consideration of measures that can be used in the vicinity of schools, such as we have discussed, to improve the environment for parents and young people, walking, wheeling or cycling. Operations are taking forward pilot projects that will inform the future direction in the area.

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

Minister, I was due to ask about the School Streets scheme, so I thank you for your answers about that. If you will indulge me, I will say that there is a school in my constituency where a child has been involved in a road traffic collision while walking to school. With the next roll-out —.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

With respect, it is Question Time, not the time for statements. If you do not have a question, we will move on.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Does the Minister agree that inconsiderate and careless parking outside schools can provide as big a threat to the road safety of children as vehicle speed?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes, and schools struggle with this every day. I am a parent, and I know from going to my local primary school that some of the parking and behaviour, by a minority, is totally unacceptable, and it presents a danger to children leaving and entering that school. I appeal to everyone to be considerate of how they park around our schools and to slow down when passing our schools.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

5. Mr McGrath asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on measures taken to manage school traffic along Edward Street, Downpatrick. (AQO 859/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As the Minister responsible for promoting and improving road safety, I want to work actively with partners to reduce deaths and serious injuries on our roads. I believe that the targeted provision of infrastructure at local schools can go a long way to making our roads and communities safer.

I am aware of the ongoing issues at Edward Street, Downpatrick, particularly in the immediate vicinity of Our Lady and St Patrick Primary School. My Department has taken forward a study to establish what options are available to introduce engineering measures to improve road safety and traffic progression along Edward Street in Downpatrick. Due to the recent opening of a new Eurospar and the merging of three schools to form Lecale Trinity Grammar School, we have now commissioned further traffic surveys for inclusion in that study to inform other options. After we receive the study's conclusions, my officials will arrange another meeting with district electoral area (DEA) representatives, including MLAs, to discuss a way forward.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

During the collapse of these institutions, I asked the Department for a resolution to the issues. Since the Minister has come back to office, I have asked him, written to him and spoken to him. Each and every time, we are told that something will happen at some point in the future. What message does the Minister have for the primary-school child who, on 18 September, was pinned up against the railings in fear when a vehicle had to mount the footpath in order to be able to maintain the traffic flow in the street?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My message is this: the driver of the vehicle should have been taking all precautions to protect the pedestrians on the footpath. There is no, "I have to mount the footpath". You drive at a speed that is appropriate to the area, and you respect other road users. The Member is pointing his question in the wrong direction. The answer to his question is like the answer to Mr Chambers' question: if you are driving past a primary school or any school, you drive appropriately to ensure that you do not present a danger to other road users.

Cathy Mason (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I welcome the fact that there are now further studies to include the changes that have happened in the area. You mentioned consulting local representatives. How and when will that happen?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

That will happen when we have firm proposals to bring forward. I understand the frustration of elected Members and members of the public, but, changing the traffic going through a town or a village has implications for the roads and networks in and around that town or village. Therefore, we have to rule out taking actions that may have damaging impacts elsewhere on the road network. We want to make sure that, when we take an action, it is the right action. Once we are in a position to ensure that we have a workable proposal to bring forward, we will bring it forward in consultation with local councillors, MLAs and the MP for the area.

Kate Nicholl (Alliance, Belfast South)

Will the Minister provide an assessment of how the active delivery plan that he mentioned will better support active travel on the way to school.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Schools are a rich source of promoting active travel, if we can provide the proper infrastructure and a safe environment for pupils and parents to walk to and from school. Schools will be a central part of the plan. As I said, I hope to launch that consultation in November, and there will be much discussion. If young people can be encouraged to start walking to and from school, that will set a pattern in life that will, hopefully, stay with them for the remainder of their life. It will be a central part of our active travel strategy.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

6. Mrs Dodds asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline the total volume of untreated sewage discharged into Belfast lough. (AQO 860/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Storm overflows are a critical part of any waste water system, and, during periods of heavy rainfall, are designed to allow diluted sewage to spill into water bodies in accordance with regulations set out by NIEA. Spills from storm overflows are made up of waste water from households and businesses that is heavily diluted by rainwater. The vast majority of what is spilled is made up of rainwater. However, NI Water estimates that approximately 1% to 2% of what is spilled is raw sewage. NI Water publishes on its website information on predicted and actual spill volumes. From the information that NI Water provides on predicted spills into Belfast lough, that 1% to 2% equates to approximately 28,000 cubic metres per year.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister. NI Water estimates that around 20 million tons of untreated sewage spills into our waterways annually. That includes around 10,000 septic tanks that are on the inner boundary of Lough Neagh. Does the Minister agree that the issue with Lough Neagh is not just for those in the farming community, who are easy to blame in this situation, but is wider and multifaceted and must be tackled in the round? Will he commit to funding the devices that are necessary to allow us to ascertain just how much raw sewage is in our waterways?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member. I agree. The Lough Neagh issue is multifaceted. Finger-pointing and blaming will not get us anywhere. We have to identify the issues and find resolutions to them.

In regard to my responsibilities as Minister of the sponsoring Department for NI Water, I am working with my Executive colleagues and others to ensure that there is proper funding for NI Water to put in place waste water treatments works and spillage monitors so that we know exactly what is happening and where it is occurring, and to work with others to ensure that we restore Lough Neagh to its full health and well-being.

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

On the back of that, why can storm overflows not be removed? What would the implications of that be?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Removing storm overflows completely would cost billions upon billions of pounds and may not be the best, most effective usage of public moneys in that context. There is no question about it: we have to operate and install new waste water treatment works. However, the most efficient waste water treatment works will always have an overflow built into them, because when a deluge of rain comes, the system becomes overpowered and you have to release the water somewhere. If you do not release the water, it will go back up the system and into schools, homes and properties.

As I said in my answer to the original question, while the volumes of water that are being released are quite significant, they usually contain between 1% to 2% of raw sewage, which is not ideal. I am not suggesting that that is ideal. That 1% to 2% of raw sewage is released into watercourses, which are also heavily influenced by storms, and is therefore further diluted. Every system, no matter how modern and well invested in it is, will have an overspill facility built in.

Peter McReynolds (Alliance, Belfast East)

In order to improve our water quality, Northern Ireland Water will have to maintain its waste water treatment sites to an acceptable and high standard, and to do that, it will need to be able to spend above its resource departmental expenditure limit (RDEL) and capital departmental expenditure limit (CDEL) allocations. Has the Minister explored how it may be able to do that?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I have. I have a constant course of engagement and discussion. As I said in answer to one of the previous questions, I am engaging with my Executive colleagues to see if we can have more financial capability in this financial year. I am looking at legislation through a sustainable drainage system (SuDS) Bill. That will be about trying to hold back some of the rainwater and releasing it into the system more slowly so that it does not become overpowered as quickly as it can in some circumstances. I am also looking at developer contributions. That may require legislative change. I am exploring that to see whether it will be part of the suite of solutions that we require to provide a sustainable funding model for NI Water.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Minister, in a previous answer, you mentioned extreme weather events, which seem to happen with monotonous regularity now. Are there any plans to improve the modelling that we do with the Met Office for such extreme weather events, given their implications in overpowering our sewerage system and other areas of our infrastructure?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The spillage monitors, which Mrs Dodds referred to, will give us evidence-based information on the areas that are under the most pressure from overflows and spillages. I also hope to be able to invest in a flood forecasting centre for here, which will be hugely beneficial. It is quite a significant investment, but, for our forward work programme, it is something that we have to invest in to ensure that we have a suite of knowledge in front of us that allows us to plan, predict and react in a way that protects homes and businesses moving forward.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

7. Ms Kimmins asked the Minister for Infrastructure, following the publication of the ‘Review of South East Flooding Autumn 2023’, what measures will be put in place in relation to Newry and South Armagh. (AQO 861/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The 'Review of South East Flooding Autumn 2023' contains 22 recommendations that cover a range of measures, including the provision of flood forecasting, the development of additional flood risk management infrastructure and further improving communications and resilience.

My Department is progressing a study to assess the viability of further flood alleviation measures to reduce flood risk in Newry. The project team is also engaging with Newry, Mourne and Down District Council with a view to potentially accelerating a section of the proposed flood alleviation works through the council’s theatre and conference facility suite.

My Department continues to work closely with the Newry business community to establish a regional community resilience group for them and others to improve preparedness for any future flooding.

To alleviate the impacts of flooding from rivers, my Department will continue its inspection and maintenance regime for designated watercourses and associated infrastructure within the Newry and South Armagh catchments. An extensive programme of desilting works is also scheduled to be delivered this financial year in Newry for designated underground culvert infrastructure.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his answer, particularly as we approach the first anniversary of the flooding, which decimated Newry city and parts of South Armagh. Will the Minister give some more information on the regional community resilience group, please?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The regional community resilience group has been set up, in discussion with other agencies, to see how we can work with other agencies and communities to assist communities in their response to flooding and how they can assist when flooding incidents happen, particularly in the distribution of sandbags etc and in storing sandbags in certain locations so that they are easily accessible. As the Member and everyone else knows, we do not always get significant warning of when a flooding event will take place. It is very difficult to predict where exactly the major flooding incident will take place. Working with local communities and businesses, we want to be in a position to ensure accessibility to some of the materials that are required for the first, initial emergency response, working in conjunction with all the partners who respond to flooding incidents.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Minister, as a result of flood events, flood risk and inadequate mitigation measures, households and businesses in Newry and South Armagh are being crippled by the cost of extortionate insurance premiums. What specific actions, bar cutting down ancient Irish oak trees, does your Department propose to take to address flood risk factors in a manner that will ease the burden of crippling insurance costs for my constituents?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member makes a flippant remark, but the reality is that, had I followed the Member's advice and not carried out the necessary works in Newry, the flooding in Newry last year would have been worse than it was. Had I followed your advice and your campaign, it would have been to do nothing, because you did not come forward with an alternative solution. You think that you can run a Department through headlines; you cannot.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Through the Chair, Minister.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

You have to be able to run a Department through evidence-based interventions. My Department had an evidence-based intervention for Newry. We carried it out and, as a result, protected thousands of homes and thousands of businesses in Newry. Does more need to be done? Of course, it needs to be done. Some of those decisions will be difficult, some will be unpalatable and some will require a Minister to make an evidence-based intervention, and I will continue to do that.

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

8. Mr Brett asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on the York Street interchange scheme. (AQO 862/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Major road schemes are an important part of the work that is delivered by my Department as we seek to reduce journey times, increase reliability and improve road safety. In October 2022, I published a placemaking and active travel review report on the scheme and asked my officials to carry out further work on three scenarios that were recommended in it.

The work to prepare a placemaking and active travel development report has now been completed. Due to underinvestment in major road schemes and to the constrained budget position, the scheme was considered in the prioritisation of major schemes, and further work on it was paused as part of the outworkings of that review.

I plan to meet officials in the coming weeks to review the scheme, which will allow me to consider the way forward for the entire major roadworks development and the placemaking scheme. Any subsequent decision to proceed with the York Street interchange project can only be made when I am confident that there is budget certainty for the scheme and that its delivery is in line with my Department’s emerging transport plans.

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

The Minister will be aware of the traffic chaos in our city centre at the weekend and of the need for major roadworks to take place, but, given the budget constraints that he has outlined, will his Department commit to delivering smaller-scale projects such as the pedestrianisation of Hill Street in my constituency, which has also been paused? That would have little financial requirement of his Department but would have a big impact in our capital city.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Very briefly, please, Minister.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The weekend traffic chaos that you refer to is the result of a £3·2 million road improvement scheme being carried out in Belfast. I suspect that people in rural Fermanagh, rural Tyrone and elsewhere are aghast at people complaining about £3·2 million being spent on their area.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

We move to topical questions.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

T1. Mr Durkan asked the Minister for Infrastructure what action he is taking to improve the electric vehicle charging network. (AQT 571/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The electric vehicle charging network is a commercial operation that is driven by commercial entities. It has had significant success in recent times, and we are seeing more electric vehicle charging points being made available to members of the public on that commercial basis.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

It seems as though this is another of these issues: it a commercial operation until there is something positive to announce, and, when there is not, it goes back to being a commercial one. Given the Minister's stated commitment to electric vehicle improvements, will he explain why, 25 months after he announced £1·3 million funding from the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles for on-street residential charge point schemes, the tender for that project has not been released?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not have the full details of the scheme in front of me. Perhaps the scheme that the Member refers to is the scheme in conjunction with councils — I am trying to catch the Member's eye. I am more than happy to follow that up for the Member, but, moving forward, this will be a commercially driven operation. The Department for Infrastructure does not provide access to petrol or diesel stations; that is not part of our function or role. It might be nice to have the financial backing to nationalise the electric vehicle charging network — I could be tempted to go down that road — but I simply do not have the financial wherewithal to do that at this time.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

T2. Mr Buckley asked the Minister for Infrastructure, whom he believes to be in fine form today, to explain in detail his Department's plans to alleviate serious congestion across Belfast and Northern Ireland, given the pleas that he might have heard on Cool FM this morning about congestion and roadworks in Belfast city centre. (AQT 572/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I agree with the Member: there is serious traffic congestion in Belfast in the mornings and during the evening rush hour. Part of it is as a result of a £340 million investment in the new Grand Central station, and part of it is as a result of the £3·2 million that is being spent on upgrading the Sydenham bypass. The reason that some of it is happening is that we are investing in our infrastructure for the economic well-being of us all.

I have asked my officials to monitor the Belfast situation closely to see whether there are interim measures, such as changes to traffic light operations, that we can take while the work in and around Grand Central station goes ahead, to help to alleviate the traffic there.

I accept that there are circumstances in which public transport is not suitable, but, when we are sitting in traffic, one question that we need to ask ourselves is this: could we use public transport to get here? When you are sitting in traffic, you are the traffic. I accept that public transport is not always accessible or available for everyone.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Tourism is important to our city. For buses to be able to bring tourists into the city and access hotels, it is important that DFI works in conjunction with private bus companies. I was informed today that DFI has put a ban on private bus companies allowing their passengers to get off at the Europa Hotel, which is forcing visitors to have to cart their bags through the city centre. Will the Minister commit to looking at how that regulation is impacting on tourists coming to our city? The Europa Hotel, the most bombed hotel in Europe, has not only survived but is now thriving. Let us not let it die from DFI over-regulation.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not know whether DFI has issued a ban, but there has to be appropriate parking for coaches in Belfast city centre; that is without doubt. My officials and others are working with Belfast City Council to see how we can best regulate coach parking in Belfast city centre. If we had unregulated coach parking, the traffic congestion that the Member referred to would only get worse. Let us work towards a solution. I have no doubt that we will reach a solution.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

T3. Mrs Dillon asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether he can confirm that a recommendation from the PSNI is required for requests to reduce a speed limit from 40 mph to 30 mph. (AQT 573/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

There will be consultation with the PSNI in that regard, particularly if there is a history of collisions on the stretch of road where the reduction or increase in the speed limit, whichever it may be, is requested.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat.

[Translation: Thank you.]

Will you outline any work that your Department is undertaking on speed-management policies and measures, particularly in built-up areas?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As I mentioned earlier in Question Time, as part of the review of 20 mph speed limits around some of our schools, the question of whether it would be appropriate to introduce 20 mph zones in certain other areas, particularly residential areas, has arisen. We need to explore that further. I am aware of the clamour in Wales to reduce the number of 20 mph speed limits. The approach taken in Wales was much more general than I would propose. I would propose that we look at residential areas that have no through roads to see whether a reduction of the speed limit to 20 mph would increase safety for whoever happens to be using the road. We need to explore that further.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

T4. Mr Brooks asked the Minister for Infrastructure to undertake to talk to relevant colleagues and review the weekend's traffic chaos, which impacted his East Belfast constituency, in particular, and was largely due to poor traffic management in the area, in order to ensure that it does not happen again. (AQT 574/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Your rural colleagues are looking on in envy at Belfast's receipt of £3·2 million for road improvement and a £340 million bus and rail station. Your rural colleagues are asking, "What are you complaining about?". However, I accept that there has been traffic congestion in Belfast. We are reviewing that. If lessons need to be learned from the weekend, they will be learned. We are resurfacing a major arterial route into Belfast. The reason that we are resurfacing it is that it is such a high-volume part of the road network. I suspect that most Members travel on it daily. It needs to be upgraded and resurfaced — that is why we are doing it — but, yes, if lessons can be learned, they will be.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. My rural colleagues will probably benefit more from those works than the residents of Sydenham, who felt locked into their residential streets at the weekend. I impress on the Minister that, at the weekend, there were events taking place in the wider area that involved road closures and so on. I ask that, in future, those things are taken into account and consideration is given to doing more of the work in the evenings.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We try to coordinate the work as much as we can. In scheduling a major work scheme, we must take the opportunity to do it with our contractors who have been involved in a number of other major road schemes, and to do it when the weather is reasonably good. We have to time it. This week's work was carried out between 10.00 pm and 6.00 am. There will be further works in the weeks and months ahead.

We will look at what happened, and, if lessons need to be learned, they will be learned. There will be inconvenience — we cannot completely plan out inconvenience — as a result of that scheme and others, but I have no doubt that, when schemes are completed, people will welcome the fact that the work has been done.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

T6. Ms Kimmins asked the Minister for Infrastructure for his assessment of the success of part-time 20 mph zones outside schools. (AQT 576/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As I said to one of the Member's colleagues, I will allow the Committee to see the full report before I make detailed comment on it, but I welcome the feedback received from teachers, pupils and parents. The 20 mph zones have clearly had benefits, and we understand those benefits much more as a result of the consultation and the work that has been done. It is only right and proper, however, that the Committee be given its place.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his answer. There have certainly been benefits where the zones are in place in my area. Will the Department consider Killean Primary School in my constituency as part of the roll-out of any future tranche of such zones? We have been lobbying for some time.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes. I am aware of the Member's lobbying in regard to that school. It will be taken into consideration in any future launch of the scheme to include more schools across the North.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

T7. Mr Allen asked the Minister for Infrastructure to give an update on the status of the departmental taxi advisory forum. (AQT 577/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not have the details in front of me. I recently met the taxi industry. I had discussions with representatives a couple of weeks ago. In true taxi driver style, the conversation was frank and straight-talking, which was OK. I have had discussions at ministerial level with them in recent weeks.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

The Minister will, no doubt, be aware that many in the disabled community, me included, face challenges in accessing accessible transport. Indeed, the media recently covered the broad range and scope of those challenges. Will the Minister advise what work his Department has undertaken to increase the availability of and options for accessible transport in Northern Ireland?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Taxis are a step aside from my Department. I have certain responsibilities in relation to licensing, regulation and other matters, but I do not control the industry as closely as I control Translink. However, in discussions with the taxi industry and others, I will ensure, as far as my powers allow, that there is full accessibility for people with disabilities on our public transport system in particular.

The treatment that the Member recently received at, I believe, Birmingham Airport, was totally unacceptable. Fair play to him for highlighting disabled people's needs and bringing them once again to the forefront of discussions about their right to access public transport fully. We have made huge strides forward in recent years on public transport, and I intend to continue that work. The taxi industry is one step aside from my Department, but I will continue to engage with it to see what support we can offer. It is a challenge for that industry as well, financially and otherwise. I understand the challenges that taxi companies face, and I will work with them in any way I can.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Question 8 has been withdrawn.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

T9. Mr Dunne asked the Minister for Infrastructure for his assessment of the impact of the introduction of one-year temporary exemption certificates on our MOT test waiting times. (AQT 579/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I referred to MOT tests when I attended the Committee for questioning last week. If the significant reduction in correspondence on MOT tests coming to my office is a measure, there has been some success. We will understand the full implications of the temporary exemption certificates and their success or otherwise by the spring of next year. Our target was to reduce waiting times to around six weeks by next spring. Thus far, the indications are that we are seeing improvement across the board.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I appreciate that progress has been made. In my local centre, in Newtownards, the waiting time is still over two months, which is over the Minister's target time. Is there any update on the Hydebank MOT test centre, which was due to be reopened over two years ago?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The reopening of Hydebank is still causing us huge frustrations and challenges. I hope to make further announcements or to have engagements on the matter in the coming weeks, because we have to bring it to a conclusion one way or the other.

Eóin Tennyson (Alliance, Upper Bann)

T10. Mr Tennyson asked the Minister for Infrastructure if he has had any engagement with the Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council on the proposed changes to traffic flow at Rathfriland Street and Scarva Street in Banbridge. (AQT 580/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I have not had direct engagement as Minister with it, but my officials from the section office will have had engagement with the council in that regard.

Eóin Tennyson (Alliance, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister. Given the significant public concern at the potential for those changes to cause traffic chaos, will you commit to engaging with the council urgently, before the changes take place?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am happy to write to the council and establish its views on the matter. I am aware of the issue, as a resident of the borough, but, as I said, I have had no direct engagement. I will follow it up with the council.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Congratulations, Mr O'Dowd, on getting through all of your topicals.

Oral Answers to Questions — Justice

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

We move now to questions to the Minister of Justice. That is something for that Minister to follow. Questions 2, 3 and 8 have been withdrawn, and questions 6 and 10 are grouped.

Maurice Bradley (DUP, East Londonderry)

1. Mr Bradley asked the Minister of Justice whether the recruitment campaign for the Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) has commenced. (AQO 870/22-27)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Prison Service requires the resources that it needs to keep people who live and work in prisons safe and secure and to support the rehabilitation and resettlement into the community of people in its care. Earlier this year, the Prison Service reviewed its operational staffing levels due to the significant and sustained increase in prisoner population. In keeping with the findings of that review, I agreed to an increase in the Prison Service's staffing complement of 75 prison officers. The Prison Service is currently working with NI Civil Service (NICS) HR partners to confirm recruitment arrangements for a custody prison officer campaign that will launch in October.

Maurice Bradley (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for her answer. In view of the circumstances that abound in England because of overcrowding, prisoners are being let out early. Does she envisage anything like that in Northern Ireland?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I have learned in this job never to say, "Never", but, at the moment, we are not in that situation. We currently have adequate capacity in our prisons for prisoners to serve the entirety of their sentence. We also have adequate staff, so we are not in an overcrowded situation. However, I am conscious that the numbers are significantly higher than was anticipated with the current complement of prison officers, and that is one of the reasons why we are going out to recruitment. In order to keep people safe and ensure that the regime operates effectively, it is important that we have the prisons properly staffed, and the new custody prison officer recruitment will go a long way to help that.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

The Minister will be aware of the morale problems in the Prison Service at the moment. One of the things that may be affecting the recruitment process is the fact that many prison officers feel as if they have not been listened to, particularly on issues to do with NICS HR. Will the Minister commit to an independent review of the Northern Ireland Civil Service HR process to make sure that our prison officers are not badly treated, as, they believe, they are?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Review of Northern Ireland Civil Service HR would be a matter for the Department of Finance, not the Department of Justice. However, I have done work to try to add support for prison officers. For example, serving and former officers now have the opportunity to avail themselves of the Police Rehabilitation and Retraining Trust (PRRT) and its facilities. We have also put in the "Prison's Well" system and provided well-being hubs at the prisons. There is considerable work going on to support prison officers in what is an increasingly complex job.

We also have already discussed issues with respect to the HR issues around prison officers and the fact that many prison officers feel that their jobs are distinct and different from many of the others in the Civil Service. However, it is sad that, at times, when Members get up in the Chamber, they do not acknowledge that when they are talking about levels of absenteeism, injury and sickness but make spurious claims about the high levels of absenteeism without recognising that our absenteeism in DOJ reflects the number of people who are deployed in Prison Service.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

4. Miss McAllister asked the Minister of Justice for her assessment of the link between the tackling paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime programme and the ending violence against women and girls strategic framework. (AQO 873/22-27)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

All types of violence are linked, and we know that there is still much to do to support women who face paramilitary harm. It is completely and unequivocally unacceptable. At ministerial and official level, we are in close and regular contact with those delivering the ending violence against women and girls strategy and the domestic and sexual abuse strategy. It is essential to see those as complementary efforts that work together to support those who continue to face harm but also ensure that we prevent this happening in the first place.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware of the recently published report by Dr Aisling Swaine that highlighted the prevalence of paramilitary violence against women and girls. What is her assessment of that publication?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

First, I commend Dr Swaine and Foyle Women's Aid for the important research that was produced on the topic of paramilitary-related gendered coercive control. I was pleased to be at the launch of that report to signal my clear support for the work that is being done on the subject. The research was timely and important. It provides real insight into the experience of women who have faced paramilitary-related gendered coercive control. The report and the testimonies of victims and survivors makes for harrowing and sobering reading. Those women have faced horrendous physical and sexual harm, including threats, surveillance and displacement and in relationships where they should have felt safe.

Violence against women and girls and paramilitary violence are linked, and the new ending violence against women and girls strategy, the strategic framework and the draft Programme for Government, which was published this month, speak to the importance of addressing those issues. We recognise that violence does not happen in a vacuum and that violence against women and girls and ongoing paramilitary violence are linked. We now need to take this real opportunity to ensure that there is a comprehensive and joined-up response.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

The Department made a transformation bid with regard to ending violence against women and girls, but, unfortunately, that did not move to the next stage. What are the Minister's plans for the next steps, as that bid was unsuccessful?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

That was a cross-departmental bid by the Department of Justice — it bid for the justice elements — and TEO. We will still have to deliver on the ending violence against women and girls framework. Obviously, significant parts of that will fall to my Department. However, the most important parts of that are now around early intervention. We have made many changes following the Gillen review to how the justice system responds to violence against women and girls, but there is still much work to be done in that space. I hope to address some of that in a victims Bill later in the mandate.

We will continue the work that is being done jointly between our Departments. It is important that we are not competing for the same resources when we work on ending violence against women and girls and on the domestic and sexual abuse strategy. From my perspective, the two are distinct. There are synergies, but the Minister of Health and I, whilst leading on the domestic and sexual violence and abuse strategy, are considering all victims, not only women and girls. We are also considering male victims of those issues. There are synergies, and we want to make the most of those.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

You have answered my question for the most part. We have the DOJ's tackling paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime programme, TEO's ending violence against women and girls framework and the PSNI's tackling violence against women and girls work, which has been running for two years now. Does the Minister think that it is now time to have a single, strategic lead on this so that we are not duplicating resources?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

First, I proposed that the Executive Office take forward the ending violence against women and girls strategy. It is not just a matter for Justice or policing; it is a matter for the whole Executive. Every Department has a role to play, whether that be Health, Education, Economy or Communities. We all have a role to play in ending violence against women and girls, which is much wider than the domestic and sexual violence and abuse on which Health and Justice take the lead.

It is important also that every strand in every Department has its own internal strategies to deal with those issues. It is important, however, that that is not about duplication; it is about learning from best practice. One of the strong things about the tackling paramilitarism programme is that we have found out what works to reduce harm in the context of paramilitary violence. There is an opportunity to apply that in other areas where we want to reduce harm.

Eóin Tennyson (Alliance, Upper Bann)

5. Mr Tennyson asked the Minister of Justice for her assessment of the budgetary pressures facing her Department. (AQO 874/22-27)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

My Department currently faces stabilisation pressures of £48 million. That projected potential overspend was reported to the Department of Finance as part of the recent in-year exercise. In addition, the Department faces exceptional pressures of £227 million in relation to legal claims for McCloud injury to feelings, data breach and holiday pay. Those costs are not affordable within my Department’s budget under any circumstance.

Whilst my Department has been proactive in taking actions over the last few years to ensure that we live within budget, we are now at the point where all options have been exhausted. Given the severity of the financial position and the demand-led nature of Justice expenditure, there is no scope for my Department to absorb the remaining level of pressures.

Eóin Tennyson (Alliance, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for her answer. What is her assessment of how the relative needs of her Department and the PSNI have been accounted for in the proposed needs-based factor from the UK Government?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Not very well. That would be the best way to describe it. In measuring need, they looked at the allocation that was made to the Department in 2017-18. By then, the ring-fencing of the Department's finances that had existed from 2010-14 had been removed and there had been a bit of a raid, I suppose, on the Department's finances. Rather than reflecting what we needed to run the Department and provide the services that we are required to provide, it reflected what we actually had to do that and the envelope within which we were working.

It is important to recognise that certain elements of policing and justice here, including their very nature, our geographical location and without any reference to special circumstances, require a higher level of investment. One example is the cost of mutual aid in comparison with other forces across the UK. We cannot provide that as cheaply. That is one reason why we need to look at that, and the Department of Finance and my officials are working hard to raise it with Treasury in order to ensure that our situation is properly reflected on the basis of evidence around the higher needs-based factor, which, I believe, Northern Ireland should achieve.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Minister agree that ongoing underfunding of the police will continue to erode faith in the justice system to the detriment of victims? Will she also agree that the Chief Constable should take every measure possible to secure adequate funding to keep people and communities safe?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

It is important that we all take every possible opportunity to ensure that policing and justice are properly funded. I have the dual duty of ensuring that not only is policing properly funded but so too is the remainder of the justice system. There is no point in funding one at the expense of the other. That will not enhance victim confidence or confidence in the community. If people are arrested and then have to sit for five, six or seven years before they get to court, that will not help victims. It is important that, when I get resources into the Department of Justice, they are properly allocated in a balanced way to ensure that the entire system is able to function. At the moment, we do not have the resources to do that across the board.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

6. Mr McHugh asked the Minister of Justice whether her Department is planning a review into prisoner educational programmes at Magilligan prison. (AQO 875/22-27)

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

10. Ms Ennis asked the Minister of Justice for her assessment of the provision of courses in prisons for offenders. (AQO 879/22-27)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Mr Speaker, with your permission, I will answer questions 6 and 10 together.

The Northern Ireland Prison Service prioritises rehabilitation by supporting and challenging those in its care to change and address their offending behaviour. That includes providing opportunities through a wide and progressive curriculum for individuals to develop skills and attain qualifications that will give them the best chance to secure and sustain employment on release. The Prison Service offers a varied curriculum of accredited training from entry level to level 3 in educational, vocational and employability skills in addition to further education opportunities that have been designed to meet the diverse needs of the prison population. The curriculum is kept under continuous review to respond to the changing needs of the prison population, emerging industries in the labour market and labour market shortages, including current and future skills gaps.

The provision of learning and skills is outsourced to our professional delivery partner, Belfast Met, which recently completed a substantive curriculum review that included the education provision at Magilligan. The recommendations from the review will be used to inform the strategic direction of learning and skills provision over the next five to 10 years and respond to the challenges presented by a rising prison population.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo.

[Translation: I thank the Minister for her answers so far.]

Will the Minister provide an assessment of the courses that are available in prison for offenders?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

As I said, there is a wide range of curriculum offer from essential skills such as numeracy and literacy to vocational skills ranging from barbering to bricklaying and employability skills, including soft skills such as writing CVs and interviewing techniques. We are also trying constantly to enhance the learning experience in line with what is offered in the community and to support future-proofing of that learning so that we can develop, for example, the use of digital technology with all the challenges that that presents in a prison system.

Plans are at an early stage, with a pilot due to commence shortly in Maghaberry to test the viability of virtual delivery across the prison estate, which may also enhance opportunities. That has the potential to maximise class numbers and expand the learning and skills curriculum. However, most learners prefer a blended approach, so they like the human touch, and it is important that we get that balance right not only in access but in support.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. Does her Department have any plans to introduce specific rehabilitation courses for offenders who have been jailed for a domestic violence offence?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

We do have specific programmes to work with people who have offended, and those programmes are tailored to their offending behaviour. The Probation Board provides some of those schemes, and there are ones for perpetrators of domestic violence and abuse. One of the challenges that we face in the prison system at the minute is that many of the people are there on remand and therefore tend not to want to engage in programmes that are about challenging their offending behaviour, because most of them are still trying to maintain the position that they are not guilty ahead of their trial. That makes it very difficult. While we can offer general education to those prisoners and many will avail themselves of that, they will often avoid the kind of perpetrator and behaviour change programmes that, I think, are critical to successful rehabilitation, particularly in the space of violence against women and girls and domestic abuse.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Minister, I particularly welcome the review of education services by Belfast Met. Can you assure the House that that will not only future-proof those courses but will look at how we broaden the type of education service that can be provided to prisoners?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

It is very important that we do that. We are committed to ensuring that, when people leave prisons, they are rehabilitated in the truest sense in that their attitudes and their offending behaviour have been successfully challenged and changed, but we also need to ensure that they have skills to be able to seek employment post release. We are working on a series of skills academies where we can train people up in particular areas where we know there are job shortages and where prisoners may benefit from the additional skills training that we can provide in the prison system.

We also need to work with people in the community, and one of the things that I have been doing since returning to office has been engaging with the business community and talking to its representatives about, first, the opportunities that exist in prisons to train people up for specific lines of work; secondly, the positives that come from employing people who have an offending background, because many of them are very grateful for the opportunity to get a job and very keen to make a contribution; and thirdly, how we can test with the business community where the key areas for new opportunities are so that we can then adapt our training. We need to be agile to ensure that, whatever we produce for the prison system, we are producing skills that are actually of value in the workplace.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

7. Mr Dunne asked the Minister of Justice whether she has plans to provide additional resources to the Planning Appeals Commission (PAC), following her meeting with the Minister for Infrastructure on 16 July 2024. (AQO 876/22-27)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service (NICTS) has provided £500,000 of additional resourcing to the Planning Appeals Commission each year since 2021. NICTS officials continue to meet the PAC chief commissioner to consider any resourcing pressures, including vacant posts. At present, there is only one vacant post in the commission, which is due to be filled in January 2025. The Northern Ireland Audit Office has recently initiated a strategic review of the PAC. That will consider the overall role and function of the commission, the challenges that it currently faces and options available to improve performance and wider planning outcomes in Northern Ireland.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for the answer. It is widely recognised that the performance of the PAC is not where it needs to be, and I think that everybody will concur with that. What more can be done to improve its efficiency? I would also like an update on the Audit Office review, if that is possible.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Audit Office review has only been announced, so no update can be given on that.

With respect to the performance and whether it is effective, the chief commissioner specifically addressed performance matters in the Planning Appeals Commission and Water Appeals Commission (PACWAC) annual review for 2022-23. From the initial statistics prepared in advance of the chief commissioner's annual report 2023-24, performance continues to improve, with the commission's performance showing the highest increase in decisions over the past five years. The final report will be published later in the autumn, and, hopefully, Members will be pleased at the progress that is being made.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

9. Mr Donnelly asked the Minister of Justice to outline how her Department is working to reduce its carbon footprint. (AQO 878/22-27)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

My Department is committed to delivering its responsibilities under the Climate Change Act (Northern Ireland) 2022 and in supporting DAERA in the development of the first Northern Ireland climate action plan. While the Department of Justice is not a sectoral lead under the Act, we aim to contribute to the sectors of buildings, transport and energy. Our 2023 outline sustainability strategy sets out our goals and supporting actions to reduce our carbon footprint. For example, we have established 2021-22 as our baseline year for measuring our energy consumption and reducing our reliance on fossil fuels. We have an active information programme in place to encourage behavioural change with our staff, both in the workplace and at home.