Northern Ireland Assembly, 3 June 2024

355 contributions from 58 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I wish to say that we will all, I think, have noted the tragic death of Fiachra Ó'Faoláin over the weekend. We wish to express our sympathies to the Gildernew family, including former Member Michelle and current Member Colm. Let it be known by the family that, as Speaker, my thoughts and prayers and, I am sure, those of many in the Chamber are with them at this time.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

I advise the Assembly that Mr Mike Nesbitt accepted the nomination to be the Minister of Health and affirmed the Pledge of Office, as set out in schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998, in my presence and that of the Director of Legal, Governance and Research Services on Wednesday 29 May 2024. I wish him success in the role.

We move now to Members' statements, and the usual rules apply.

Members' Statements

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Speaker for his kind comments about the tragedy that happened at the weekend. It was an immeasurable tragedy for Fiachra's mummy and daddy, Fiona and Shane, and his brothers and sisters, Dearbhla, Roisín, Méabh, Dáithí and Dualtách. Our thoughts and prayers are with them all and the entire family circle of the Gildernew and Ó’Faoláin families. No words can express the devastation that was visited on the family this past weekend, but I am certain that they will appreciate the gesture by the Speaker in the House today. Go raibh mile maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

[Translation: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker]

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

I rise to formally welcome the clearing on Friday of the two PSNI officers who had faced disciplinary proceedings after investigating a potential breach of COVID regulations in February 2021. Belfast High Court deemed the decision to suspend one of the officers and reposition the other to be unlawful and a response to political interference in the Police Service by Sinn Féin. Bizarrely, despite that ruling, the PSNI pressed ahead with the misconduct charge against the suspended officer. The officer appealed that decision and received written notification on Friday that their appeal had been upheld.

The striking words of the Police Federation must be read into the record. Its chair, Liam Kelly, stated that "misinformation" and "irrational conjecture" had been circulated since the original incident took place. He said:

"We collectively have been appalled by the amount of misinformation, baseless rumours and irrational conjecture around this incident"

aimed at those brave PSNI officers. Mr Kelly stated:

"I am more confident following the acceptance of Mr Justice Scoffield’s related judgement that the Senior Management in PSNI will in future properly and fairly apply the public interest test ... The misconduct exoneration for the second officer is most welcome by him and his colleagues and allows for this sorry episode to be finally put behind them."

The time has come for those who engaged in that misinformation and baseless rumour to apologise for their actions. The now First Minister accused the officers of "Unjustified heavy handed tactics" and of damaging confidence in policing. The MP for South Down described the officers as "vindictive" and "cowardly". Those comments have been disproven, not only by the courts but by the Police Ombudsman. The time has come for the First Minister to set the record straight, apologise for those remarks and apologise to the police officers so that we can restore confidence in our Police Service, which serves all communities in Northern Ireland without fear or favour.

Nick Mathison (Alliance, Strangford)

First, I welcome the news that the planned strike action by non-teaching staff unions is not going ahead today and that two unions have agreed to suspend action planned for Tuesday. That is welcome as a temporary reprieve, and it will bring relief to many parents and to students who are concerned about sitting examinations. Hopefully, it offers us a window of opportunity to resolve the long-running dispute over the pay and grading review.

The review was agreed with the employer — the Education Authority (EA) — back in 2019, and it is unacceptable that, in 2024, staff still await its implementation. It remains unclear to me why the EA's business case sat with the Department of Education from February 2023 until December of that year, before receiving sign-off by that Department and being passed to Finance. As far as I can tell, that was a delay that, ultimately, led to it not being included in the financial package to restore the institutions. Staff, rightly, feel let down by how the process has been handled over many years. Support staff in our schools, often working for low pay as classroom assistants, in transport and in kitchens, provide vital services to keep the system running. They should be paid fairly, and they should sit within a grading system that promotes career development and makes the roles viable, long-term options for the staff who carry them out. There is a workforce crisis in education, and the pay and grading review is essential to addressing that.

The dispute sits in a slightly odd context in which the employer — the EA — has no financial levers to resolve the issue: it does not have the resource that it requires to deliver the pay and grading review. The matter sits under the responsibility of the Education Minister, and I welcome the announcement that engagement with the unions is under way. I urge the Minister and the unions to enter into meaningful negotiations to find a way to resolve the issue. Staff rightly feel let down by years of inaction, but, in our current financial context, a resolution must be found that is affordable to the Executive and can be accepted by the workers who are impacted. It will not be resolved by the Minister making unrealistic bids in the next monitoring round. Sensible, pragmatic politics will be required by all stakeholders to find a resolution to the dispute.

Our education system faces acute pressures on a range of fronts, and the pay and grading review is critical to tackling some of those, including, as I have mentioned, workforce issues and, particularly, special educational needs (SEN) reform, and to ensuring that schools do not face a protracted period of closure and disruption.

I call on all stakeholders involved in the dispute to use the short window of time available to find a solution.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Last week, the Assembly passed a Budget. It was warned at that stage that it would have catastrophic impacts on the Health and Social Care (HSC) system across Northern Ireland. Some said that that was scaremongering, while others said that it was untrue. Unusually, the six chairs of our health and social care trusts have come out vocally this morning to warn about the impact that the Budget that was passed last Tuesday will have on the service. I quote from their statement:

"It is our duty to warn of the very real potential for avoidable and serious harm being caused to people in our community who require our help, as a result of inadequate budgetary provision."

They go on to say:

"The reality is that without significant additional funding this year and longer-term financial security, the Health Service will be further destabilised and the public will bear the brunt."

The key line in the statement is the call for additional funding this year. That lies within the power of the Assembly. I ask those in the Chamber and the members of the current Executive that, when it comes to the monitoring round later this month, they reflect on the decisions that they took last week. They have the opportunity to correct them when it comes to the monitoring round.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I am delighted to mark a historic day for Northern Ireland. Tonight, my friend and colleague Lilian Seenoi-Barr becomes the first black mayor in Northern Ireland. Lilian's appointment is first and foremost a mark of her personal tenacity and resilience. Anyone who has met her knows that she is simply relentless. Lilian and I entered politics at the same time, and, in that time, I have seen at first hand how she has been a dedicated campaigner for her community and an unstoppable advocate for Foyleside and all the people across Derry. She has already made an enormous impact as a councillor and campaigner, and I know that she will make a remarkable mayor for Derry city and Strabane. She will truly speak up for everyone across the city and district.

Lilian's personal story is nothing short of extraordinary. She came here as a refugee and sought protection in Northern Ireland. The fact that she will now become our mayor is a sign of the possibility that exists for all people from all backgrounds. The barriers that Lilian has broken down are more evidence of the opportunity that exists for anyone who thinks that they may not be able to go as far as their talents will take them. There are now possibilities.

I am also proud that my party nominated her because she is someone who embodies our vision of a peaceful, prosperous, anti-sectarian future here based on difference and diversity. Lilian's appointment as our city's first citizen is also a mark of how far we have come as a society. It reflects a changing place and is a symbol of the diverse and pluralist community that we in Northern Ireland now all share.

It is no secret that Lilian's nomination has been met with intense and sustained online abuse. That should be a cause for all of us to unite and to denounce the cowards who hide behind screens and faceless profiles on social media. In a week in which we will debate hate crime, it is right that we say loudly and clearly to those voices that they do not represent us and certainly do not represent the people of my city. My city is one of protest and progress. Our people have always spoken up and fought for social justice. The fact that it will be Derry that nominates the first black mayor in Northern Ireland is deeply fitting and is a sign of our city taking another step on that march for equality and civil rights.

Lilian, congratulations. I wish you all the best in the year ahead as mayor.

Aisling Reilly (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Déanfar an ráiteas seo as Gaeilge.

I gceann níos lú ná coiscise cuirfear tús le Craobhchomórtas Peile na hEorpain Munich — ag caitheamh spotsolas domhanda ar gach rud atá le tairiscint ag an Ghearmáin do chuairteoiri agus ag cur borradh mór eacnamaíochta faoi ghnólachtaí agus pobail áitiúla. Ar ndóighe, beidh deis ag Béal Feirste tairbhe a bhaint as a leithéid de bhuntáistí i gceann ceithre eile bliain le Euro 2028.

Is é príomhthátál na tuairisce is déanaí a choimisiúnaigh Cumann Luthchleas Gaeil Uladh go bhféadfaí breis agus £100 mílliún a ghiniúint don gheilleagar áitiúil trí chluichí Euro 2028 a óstáil i bPáirc Mhic Easmaint. Is deis é sin nach cóir ligean dul tharainn. Is deis ar leith é. Ba cheart dúinn an deis sin a thapú. Tá an ceart tuillte againn na cluichí seo a óstáil. Anois caithfimid a chinntiú go bhfuil áiseanna den chéad scoth againn i bPairc Mhic Easmaint.

Tá an t-am ag imeacht uainn agus tá na tairbhí eacnamaíochta féideartha rómhór chun ligean do thuilleadh moille iad a chur i mbaol. Is deis iontach é seo le scoth na n-oileán s’againn a léiriú ar stáitse an domhain. Féadann na tairbhí fadtréimhseacha athrú ó bhun a dhéanamh agus, mar dhuine a raibh an onóir mhór aici bheith ag imirt i bPairc Mhic Easmaint, tá a fhios agam go bhfágfaidh sé oidhreacht spóirt agus chultúir thar a bheith dearfach do na glúinte atá le teacht.

I gceann aon lá dhéag amháin, beidh súile an domhain ar an Ghearmáin. Ach ba cheart gurb í an bhliain 2028 an bhliain s’againn. Ba cheart go mbeamis ag tapú na deise. Ba chóir dúinn bheith ag éascú comórtas a mbainfidh ár bpobal tairbhe as i bhfad i ndiaidh dóibh an féadóg dheireanach a chluinstin. Táthar ag súil le hathfhorbairt Phairc Mhic Easmaoint le fada an lá. Mar phríomhthionscadal feidhmiúcháin, tá sé i bhfad thar am. Tá sé thar am Páirc Mhic Ásmaint a thógáil.

Alan Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I pay tribute today to the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service, which, on Thursday night and into the early hours of Friday morning, bravely fought a huge fire in Limavady town centre. It was the largest fire in living memory in the town, and it was in an area of Limavady that I know very well. My office, which I share with an outgoing Member of Parliament, and which has served the people of the Roe valley for 20 years, sits on the same street on which the fire raged. I grew up just around the corner from that street, so it saddens me to see the damage that has been caused to that corner of our town centre. When I arrived on Thursday evening and saw the centre of Limavady ablaze, with black smoke billowing across the stunning Roe valley, it brought back memories of terrorist campaigns, the hallmark of which were town-centre explosions, of the 1970s and 1980s. Had it not been for the quick action of the fire service, several very popular businesses would be blackened shells today.

Although buildings can be replaced, people cannot. Therefore, I offer my personal thanks to the emergency services, particularly the dozens of firefighters who fought into the early hours to prevent that blaze spreading. The fact that lays bare the danger of that fire is that, 60 feet from the blaze, there is a fuel station. Had that been impacted on, we would have been looking at an entirely different outcome. I hope that the damage can be speedily repaired, but the town that I was born and bred in is open for business. Please come to Limavady and support our traders in their hour of need. You will not receive a better welcome than in the home of the 'Londonderry Air'.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Yesterday marked National Cancer Survivors Day, which is a day to celebrate and reflect. Over the past three decades, we have seen progress being made in extending cancer survival. The risk of dying from cancer has steadily declined, and people with cancer are living many years beyond their initial diagnosis. However, cancer incidence is on the rise. In Northern Ireland, almost 10,000 people are diagnosed with cancer each year. That is more than 26 every day. The average number of cancer cases per year increases by 8%. Those increases are largely due to the ageing population. Although cancer survival is improving, with 56% of patients surviving for five years or more, survival in Northern Ireland still lags behind comparable countries around the world.

On top of that, more people are being diagnosed with cancer younger. That means that more cancer survivors now have a longer life expectancy in which to deal with all of the difficulties that come along with cancer survivorship. As many cancer survivors will tell you, the effects of cancer do not end when the treatment ends. Cancer survivors face ongoing, and sometimes lifelong, hardships because of their disease. In addition to battling a serious illness, cancer survivors may have to contend with the after-effects of chemotherapy, radiotherapy and surgery; the denial of health insurance and life insurance coverage; difficulty in finding or keeping jobs; an increased risk of developing secondary cancers and other health conditions; economic burdens due to lost wages and reduced productivity; mental and emotional struggles; strains on personal relationships; and the profound fear of cancer returning. That is why I, as a cancer survivor, know that we must continue to advocate for more resources, research and survivor-friendly legislation to improve the quality of life of cancer survivors during and after cancer treatment. That is why I urge everyone who takes part in Cancer Survivors Day celebrations not only to recognise those who are living with a history of cancer but to raise awareness of the challenges that cancer survivors face beyond treatment.

Cancer Survivors Day is a celebration for all who have been diagnosed with cancer and who, following treatment, have been given the all-clear. I was diagnosed with oesophageal cancer on 11 July 2019, nearly four and a half years ago. I look forward to 9 December this year, when I will celebrate the 5th anniversary of my surgery and final treatment. Cancer Survivors Day, which was celebrated around the world yesterday, is a chance to reflect on what cancer patients endure and the effect of that on their families. It is an opportunity to say a huge thank you to all who have made cancer survival possible: our doctors; researchers; nurses; hospital staff; fundraisers; and donors. Cancer Survivors Day provides a heartfelt occasion on which to honour and celebrate the resilience of cancer survivors.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

I rise to mark 30 years of Bloomfield Football Club, the history of which can be traced back further still, having evolved from the 24th Old Boys, which came out of Bloomfield Presbyterian Church and played in the first division of the Old Boys League that was established in 1958.

Many will know that the Old Boys teams were associated with Boys' Brigade (BB) companies and their respective churches. As the number of players in the 24th Old Boys with links to the church and the BB fell, it was decided to formally end that association. It was then, 30 years ago this year, that Bloomfield Football Club was born. Unable to continue in the Old Boys League, it joined the Northern Amateur Football League, in which its senior men continue to play today from its base at Houston Park, part of what is known to most locally as Orangefield Park. Today, Bloomfield Football Club is more than just one team. Indeed, in player participation, it is the largest community football club in east Belfast and one of the biggest in Northern Ireland, with 37 junior teams alongside four senior teams, which now include a women's team, and there are plans to add further female teams this year.

I attended the club's annual junior fun day and awards ceremony at Orangefield on Saturday. The park was full, with hundreds of children and their families relaxing and picnicking in the sun and having fun on the inflatables. The day typified the community and family focus of that wonderful club. I congratulate the committee members, coaches, players, parents and volunteers, past and present, on this landmark. I look forward to working with them on their big plans for the future and, indeed, celebrating with them this Saturday evening.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

For a moment, I thought that you said "Linfield", but clearly not.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I will start by associating myself with your comments, Mr Speaker, and those of Mrs Linda Dillon in expressing my and my party's condolences to the wider Gildernew family on the tragic death of 21-year-old Fiachra — if that is how you pronounce his name; I am trying my best. Our thoughts are with his family.

Sadly, at the weekend, there was another death that many of us will have found out about from the news. Rob Burrow, the former rugby league player, passed away at Pinderfields Hospital near his home. He was surrounded by his loving family in his last moments. Rob was diagnosed with motor neurone disease (MND) in 2019. His final days, and those throughout his illness, were marked by the compassion and care of the hospital staff, for which, I know, the Burrow family are very thankful. In fact, the family issued a statement shortly after his death in which they said:

"The outpouring of love and support that Rob and the whole Burrow family have received over the last four and a half years meant so much to Rob ... the rugby league family and the MND community have rallied around Rob to inspire him, thank you for your support."

Anyone who has followed Rob's journey, from his diagnosis to this point, cannot help but be inspired by how he faced into the terminal illness that he was diagnosed with. He fought with every fibre of his body. He was described on the news as being one of the smallest rugby players, but he was almost certainly one of the biggest fighters and one of the biggest men that rugby has ever produced. Rob Burrow's determination and spirit in facing motor neurone disease were emblematic of his character.

He never accepted limitations, and Rob found ways to excel well beyond expectations, continually inspiring those around him, right up to his death. In a world full of adversity, Rob's legacy reminds us all to dare to dream. Rest in peace, Rob. Your impact endures.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I offer my sincere condolences to all who knew Fiachra O'Faoláin. My thoughts and condolences are with his family, friends and community. I measc na naomh go raibh sé.

[Translation: I hope he is in heaven.]

I rise today against the backdrop of a series of chilling warnings that have been issued by all six health and social care trusts across the North. Our health trusts have not beaten about the bush on their financial outlook. They have made it clear that catastrophic impacts loom large in our very near future. They have spoken of the near inevitability that more hospital beds will be closed and that outpatient care, operating lists and domiciliary care packages will be cut. At a constituency level, I have witnessed at first hand, as have other Members, what that means in real terms: degrading and dignity-stripping corridor care becoming the norm; patients waiting for days to receive appropriate treatment; poor souls waiting for months for cancer intervention, knowing that their disease is spreading; and families at their wits' end fighting to secure care packages that increasingly do not exist.

It is a scandal that we are at this juncture. It is a scandal that our dysfunctional politics, collapsing Executives, false promises and brazenly mediocre leadership have led us to the point where people may die unnecessarily because of our health service having been starved of resources and deprived of leadership. I think today of what the average person must think of this place in light of the damning commentary from our health trusts. Do they feel angry, frightened, betrayed or exasperated with a sense of utter despair? Is it a combination of all those emotions?

In the lead-up to the last Assembly election, parties jockeying for power committed themselves forcefully to rescuing the health service. Ambitious and noble plans were a dime a dozen. Amidst assurances that it was time for change and that they would work for all, we were promised an extra £1 billion for Health. At the first hurdle, they fell. One billion pounds extra for Health? Not even close. Such was the weakness of their financial commitment to Health that the Health Minister could not, in good faith, back their Budget.

What has changed between April 2022 and June 2024? It cannot be Tory austerity. The Tories have been on the austerity wagon for more than a decade. It cannot be that they overestimated the money that Stormont had at its disposal, because those parties have been managing Stormont's books for a generation. Mere words are not enough to pull our health service back from the brink. We do not need any more catchy slogans. I am asking for nothing that has not already been promised. All that I ask is for Executive leaders to be true to what they said on paper. We need all promises made to be promises kept. Executive parties must be held to their word.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member's time is up.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

People's lives hang in the balance.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I congratulate our very own road racing legend, Mr Michael Dunlop, on winning his twenty-sixth TT race on the Isle of Man on Saturday, equalling the long-held record of his iconic uncle, the late, great Joey Dunlop. Joey, who was voted Northern Ireland's greatest-ever sports star, won his last TT in 2000. It is so very fitting that, 24 years later, it is his nephew Michael who equals that magnificent record of success. It is an incredible achievement, one worthy of celebration and proper recognition for a local sporting hero from our wee country.

We have a proud legacy and heritage in Northern Ireland of punching well above our weight in so many sports, something that we can all be so proud of. That success continues to this day. The Dunlop family name in motorcycle road racing is truly world-famous and iconic through the success of Joey; Michael's late dad, Robert; and his late brother, William, all of whom are sadly no longer with us but have left an incredible legacy of success, humility and, importantly, triumph through adversity. Despite many personal trials and tragedy, Michael continues to excel, and to win 26 races at the Isle of Man TT, which is, no doubt, one of the most iconic, dangerous and competitive motor sport competitions in the world, is truly a phenomenal achievement.

Michael was set to win his twenty-seventh TT as recently as yesterday, only for a very unfortunate technical issue occurring with his helmet whilst he was leading the race. He still managed to finish an incredible fourth, despite having to pull in to fix his helmet.

I have no doubt that Michael Dunlop will go on to break even more records this week and create even more history for Northern Ireland. We can be very proud of that, and he will gain more wins and records in the years ahead. I wish all the competitors very safe races in those that are ahead of them this week on the Isle of Man.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

In 2013, following the death of young Kevin Bell, who sadly passed away in New York, the community came together, rallied with the Bell family to support them and raised significant funds to bring Kevin's remains home to Ireland. As a result of that and to build on a tremendous legacy, Kevin's father, Colin Bell, established the Kevin Bell Repatriation Trust. As of today, 11 years on, 1,800 families have benefited from the support of the trust. The impact that it has at a difficult and tragic time for many families is huge and significant, and many are grateful for the huge amount of work and support that the Kevin Bell Repatriation Trust provides to those families in those difficult circumstances.

Indeed, this week, in my constituency, I have witnessed first-hand the huge benefit and relief that the Kevin Bell Repatriation Trust has brought to a family that is suffering tremendous loss and pain. On 3 May, young Jamie Sandhu passed away in Australia in difficult and sad circumstances. It was a great shock to his family and friends across Strabane who knew and loved him. He came from a loving and caring close family who are rooted in education and in the Strabane community. Immediately, without hesitation, Colin Bell and his trust came to that family's aid and brought their son, brother and grandchild home to his family. I can tell you, Mr Speaker, and I will put it firmly on the record that the gratitude of that family to the Kevin Bell Repatriation Trust is beyond words.

The entire community, in the face of the deeply devastating news, rallied to the aid of the Doherty family in the last few days and, within three days, raised £20,000 for the Kevin Bell Repatriation Trust. In our community, we are so fortunate to have pillars such as the Kevin Bell Repatriation Trust that are upholding all of us in difficult times. It goes without saying that the Doherty, Callaghan and Sandhu family are deeply appreciative of that support, as are the other 1,800 families who have had loved ones returned to Ireland and, indeed, to other areas.

In the House today, on behalf of all Members, we say this firmly on the record: thank you to Colin Bell and his family for what they have done. Our thoughts are with the family of Jamie Sandhu, who are suffering the deep pain of loss this week.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

That brings to a conclusion Members' statements. There was quite a demand this morning. If Members who did not get in are in their place tomorrow morning, we will try to pick some of them up then.

Assembly Business

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes the report of the Audit Committee [NIA 17/22-27] on the scrutiny of the Assembly Commission’s budget for the financial year 2024-25, as laid before the Assembly on 9 April 2024; and agrees the Assembly Commission’s budget for 2024-25.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

The Business Committee has agreed to allocate one hour to the debate. The proposers of the motion will have 10 minutes to move and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other contributors will have five minutes. Please open the debate on the motion.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

[Translation: Thank you, Mr Speaker.]

The Commission has a statutory duty, under section 40 of the Northern Ireland Act, to provide the Assembly with, or ensure that the Assembly is provided with, the property, staff and services required for the Assembly's purposes. The Commission develops a draft budget for each year to ensure that it can deliver all the services required by the Assembly. That draft budget is then scrutinised by the Audit Committee, which includes input from the Department of Finance to help to inform the Committee's scrutiny. The House agreed the Commission's three-year budget for 2022-25 on 23 February 2022. However, due to the significant changes in the planning context and economic climate since then, the Commission has updated its budget requirements for 2024-25. Those have been scrutinised and reported on by the Audit Committee, with the Committee's report being laid before the Assembly on 9 April 2024. That report informs today's debate.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker [Ms Ní Chuilín] in the Chair)

The motion and subsequent vote will enable the Assembly to determine the resources that the Commission will be given to enable the Assembly to carry out its legislative functions. Once agreed, the budget is notified to the Department of Finance for inclusion in any Budget presented by the Minister of Finance. Ordinarily, the Assembly will consider and approve the Commission's budget in advance of the Executive's expenditure proposals being considered and agreed. However, the timing of the Executive's 2024-25 Budget-setting process meant that that was not possible.

Turning to the figures in the Commission's draft 2024-25 budget, the total budget for 2024-25 is £58·453 million of resource departmental expenditure limit (DEL), which is an increase of £6·103 million from the original budget position; and £3·203 million for capital DEL, which is an increase of £2·198 million from the original budget position. The first category that is included in the Commission's budget is income. Next year, the Commission expects to receive income of £709,000. Of that, approximately £602,000 relates to the recovery of the cost of ministerial salaries from the Departments. The remainder relates to the recovery of salary costs for staff who were seconded to other public-sector entities. The second category is salaries and expenses paid to Members. That covers a range of areas, including Members' salaries, constituency office and support staff costs, travel and all other costs associated with Members. The total cost for Members for 2024-25 is £20·105 million. Salaries payable to Members, Ministers, Committee Chairs and members of the Commission were set by the independent financial review panel, otherwise known as IFRP, in the 2016 determination. The forecast for 2024-25 is £6·984 million. The Commission has not made any attempt to predict how Members' salaries might be impacted by the formation of a future remuneration board, as Members' salaries are not a matter for the Commission.

The amounts that Members can recover to meet the costs of running a constituency office, including the cost of rent, rates and support staff, is expected to total £12·708 million. The level of expenses recoverable for constituency office running costs has not been changed since 2016. The Assembly Commission proposes to publish a further determination later this year to make inflationary increases to those. The Commission also proposes to make additional constituency office staffing support available to Members who have a baby. While some provision for security-related costs is provided in the current determination, the budget includes additional funding specifically for security-related costs, totalling £360,000, given the security risks faced by Members and their staff working in constituency offices. Payments to Members in respect of travel costs are forecast to be £323,000 in 2024-25, including an inflationary increase, as those have not increased since 2016. Members' other costs include winding-up, resettlement and any ill-health retirement expenses that might occur. Those have been budgeted at £90,000.

The third major category in the Commission's budget covers salary payments for Commission staff and the administrative costs incurred to deliver the full range of services needed by the Assembly. Commission staff salary costs are forecast to be £23·867 million. That includes a modest increase of five staff related to an information systems scholarship programme and support for an internal project to replace legacy computer systems. The budget has been updated to reflect changes in pay scales to reflect the actual pay awards that have been implemented in each of the financial years since the original 2024-25 budget was agreed. An increase in employer's pension contributions for staff, as notified by Civil Service Pensions, is also included. That equates to £455,000. Administrative costs are forecast to be £10·214 million. Administration costs cover a wide range of expenditure items, including Committee expenses, the cost of drafting private Members' Bills, building rates, utility costs, repairs and maintenance costs, and third-party support for business-critical IT systems in areas such as broadcasting, catering and research.

The Commission is seeking to invest in updating and replacing a number of key systems, such as core financial and HR systems and Bill-drafting software. Those investment plans, along with a number of capital investment plans, reflect the fact that the Commission is relying on aging and legacy technology. Those investments will ensure that the Assembly is provided with and supported by robust, modern and secure systems.

As Members will be aware, a number of issues with water ingress in Parliament Buildings relate to the roof replacement project, which was completed in 2015. The Commission has issued legal proceedings against those who were contracted to undertake that work and is seeking recovery of the full costs of repair. Until recently, the Commission had refrained from undertaking the necessary remedial works on the basis of advice that that could prejudice its legal position. However, the legal position has now changed, and the Commission has commenced planning for remedial works to be taken forward. While the exact costs and timing of the repairs are still to be determined, an estimate of £1·8 million has been included in the 2024-25 budget proposals on the basis of prudence, although some of the costs may, in fact, fall into the subsequent year. The Commission also awaits an up-to-date estimate of those costs.

The next category is payments to parties under the financial assistance for political parties (FAPP) scheme 2016. The new FAPP scheme has been developed to reflect the recommendations of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee's report on the review of the settlement of entitlements for an official Opposition, which was agreed by the Assembly in the previous mandate. The new FAPP scheme has been laid in the Assembly, and a motion will be brought to the House tomorrow to approve it. The new scheme will provide additional funding to parties that enter Opposition, as well as making an inflationary increase to the overall funding that is provided under the scheme. The 2024-25 budget for the FAPP scheme is £1·028 million.

The penultimate category relates to depreciation charges, which are forecast at £3·948 million. That reflects the expenditure on capital in each of the proceeding years and is mostly due to the depreciation charge on the value of Parliament Buildings.

Finally, I turn to capital expenditure. The Commission has identified the need for a number of capital projects to be delivered in the 2024-25 year at a cost of £3·203 million. Some of the expenditure relates to projects that were originally budgeted for in earlier years, but that, for a number of business reasons, were deferred. The capital plan includes a project to deliver partial electronic access control, which will enhance security controls in Parliament Buildings, and a project to replace the existing legislation-drafting software, which is coming to the end of its useful life. That software is critical to supporting and delivering the legislative programme of the Assembly. Also included is expenditure to refresh the IT network and to replace the secure remote access, which allows Members and staff to connect to the Commission's network when they are away from Parliament Buildings. Work is planned on the internal Assembly information database, AIMS, which is pivotal in many procedural areas of work. That work will ensure that it continues to properly support the work of the Assembly.

On behalf of the Commission, I take the opportunity to record my sincere thanks to the Commission staff for the considerable efforts that they have made over recent months to facilitate the return of normal Assembly business at very short notice. There have been many challenges to deal with, and the staff should be recognised for their energy, commitment, resilience and dedication. With that, I commend the Commission's budget proposals for 2024-25 to the House.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Normally, the Audit Committee produces a full report outlining its deliberations on the draft budgets for the Assembly Commission, Audit Office and Public Services Ombudsman, but because of the tight time frame for the 2024-25 Budget process, the Committee reported by way of a letter that was sent to the Minister of Finance. It is that letter that is referenced in the motion.

Before I give some detail on the Committee's limited scrutiny of the Commission's budget, I want to outline the background to the Committee's approach. The Committee followed the approach of the predecessor Audit Committee. To reflect the constitutional independence of the Assembly from the Executive, a methodology was introduced in 2016 similar to that adopted by the Audit Committee in agreeing the Main Estimates for the Audit Office and the Public Services Ombudsman. The intention is that that additional Committee function will be codified before the end of the current mandate.

The Committee commenced its scrutiny of the Commission's indicative budget at its first meeting of the mandate on 6 March 2024. Obviously, that was not an ideal way to start the Committee's work, but the timescales for this year's Budget are tight. As Members will be aware, the Commission has a legal requirement to meet all costs associated with Members, including salaries, allowances, expenses, Members' staffing costs and pension contributions. Those budget elements are determination-driven and are not under the Commission's control. Officials advised the Committee that the Commission intends to bring forward new legislation to establish an independent remuneration board to determine Members' salaries to replace the former IFRP. Members should note that the budget for 2024-25 does not estimate the impact of future determinations once the board is established.

During the March evidence session with Commission officials, Committee members covered all aspects of the indicative budget for 2024-25. However, certain issues were explored in more detail, such as the cost of enhanced scrutiny, including the introduction of the new Windsor Framework Democratic Scrutiny Committee; Members' security, both personal and in constituency offices; the ongoing corporate systems review project; new software for drafting Bills; and the ongoing potential financial impact of roof repairs to Parliament Buildings.

The increase in resource DEL was, as predicted, mainly due to MLA constituency costs and party allowances. It also included an increase for secretariat staff salaries to reflect pay progression and ongoing recruitment. The increase in capital DEL was partly attributed to the replacement of the specialised legislative drafting software, as well as the replacement project for the IT support network. Members heard that other planned capital works are needed to address underinvestment in the fabric of the Building in previous years and viewed them as being necessary to face the challenge of a fully functioning Assembly. Works include the continuing enhancements to the Senate Chamber, the Long Gallery and the Blue Flax and visitors' restaurants. The Committee welcomes those projects and looks forward to seeing them being progressed as quickly as possible. The Committee was given further information from the Commission on the ongoing issues in relation to the remedial work that was required for the roof of Parliament Buildings. Members will be aware that that issue is now in litigation, and the Committee will seek updates about the potential impact on future budgets in due course.

In coming to its conclusion, the Committee was mindful of the wider public expenditure position but also of the need, now more than ever, for a well-resourced and fully functioning Assembly, as set out in its letter to the Minister of Finance. The Commission has a resource DEL budget of £58·4 million and a capital DEL budget of £3·2 million, and the Committee looks forward to working with it for the rest of the mandate.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I call Robbie Butler to make his winding-up speech on the motion. Robbie, you have 10 minutes.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank the proposer of the motion and the Member from the Audit Committee for their contributions. Given the recent debate on the Executive's expenditure proposals for 2024-25 and in the context of the significant wider public-sector budget constraints, it is crucial that the Assembly debates the Assembly Commission's budget today. That is because the resources that are made available to the Assembly Commission will be used to provide services to the Assembly and all its Members.

The provision of all the services that are required to carry out the Assembly's legislative, scrutiny and representative functions will remain the Assembly Commission's overarching objective. While the House agreed the Commission's three-year budget for 2022-25 on 23 February 2022, the significant changes in the planning context and the economic climate since then have to be recognised. It also has to be recognised that, in the absence of normal Assembly business during 2022-23 and most of 2023-24, investment by the Commission was indeed limited. The budget proposals presented today therefore reflect that, with significant investment planned to ensure that the Assembly is effectively and efficiently supported and is provided with robust, innovative, modern and secure systems in a modern working environment.

The Assembly Commission considers the budget for the year to be a reasonable estimate of the financial requirements needed to support the Assembly fully and to deliver the required services to its Members. The budget will enable the Assembly Commission to meet the necessary costs that will arise from staff costs, the running costs of the Building, the costs of delivering effective constituency services for our communities and the costs of investing in systems and infrastructure to ensure that they continue to meet the Assembly's needs. The budget also provides for the costs of repairing the roof of Parliament Buildings, but, as Ms Ennis has advised, the Commission has issued legal proceedings against those previously contracted to undertake roof replacement work and is seeking recovery of the full cost of repairs.

I will now briefly respond to the contribution made by the Chair of the Audit Committee, Mr Alan Chambers. He spoke about the compressed time frames. Those have had an added effect across all our Departments, and it is the same for the Commission. Perhaps a lack of detail was evident, and that is not normally the case. That places a pressure on scrutiny, and there was a need to ensure that we had the motion debated in today's plenary sitting.

The Commission has considered its requirement for the 2024-25 year, recognising that a significant element of its budget is non-discretionary. It relates to payments to Members, which are set out by the independent financial review panel or through a determination published by the Assembly Commission. The Commission is grateful to the Audit Committee for its work on scrutinising the Commission's budget for the period. The Commission seeks the Assembly's agreement to the budget amounts for resource DEL and capital DEL, as set out in the motion. I commend those amounts to the House.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly notes the report of the Audit Committee [NIA 17/22-27] on the scrutiny of the Assembly Commission’s budget for the financial year 2024-25, as laid before the Assembly on 9 April 2024; and agrees the Assembly Commission’s budget for 2024-25.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Members, please take your ease while we change the personnel at the top Table.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Dr Aiken] in the Chair)

Ministerial Statements

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I have received notice from the Minister of Education that he wishes to make a statement. Before I call the Minister, I remind Members that they must be concise in asking their questions. This is not an opportunity for debate, and long introductions will not be allowed.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

In compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following statement on the meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) in education sector format that was held on Wednesday 22 May 2024. The meeting took place in the Department of Education's Marlborough Street offices in Dublin and was chaired by Norma Foley TD, the Minister for Education for the Republic of Ireland. I attended the meeting along with Caoimhe Archibald, the Minister of Finance, who attended as the accompanying Minister, and Hildegarde Naughton TD, Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach. Caoimhe Archibald, the Minister of Finance, has agreed the statement and agreed for me to make it on our behalf.

The meeting was cordial and productive, and progress was made on a number of key issues, including the review of the work programme; special educational needs (SEN); school, youth and teacher exchanges; cooperation between education inspectorates; educational underachievement; and addressing climate change and loss of biodiversity in the education sector. The Council noted that officials from both Administrations have conducted a review of the work programme for the NSMC education sector. Ministers noted the outcome of the review and agreed the revised work programme for the sector.

Stephen Douthart, chief executive officer of Middletown Centre for Autism (MCA), and Rosemary Steen, vice-chair, provided Ministers with an overview of the work of the centre. Ministers welcomed the overall achievements of the MCA since 2021 and commended the valuable contribution that its range of services has made to the education of children with autism and to young people in both jurisdictions. Ministers welcomed Stephen Douthart, the new CEO, and Sheila Darling, the new chair. They thanked Jim Lennon, the previous interim CEO, and Rosemary Steen, the previous chair, for their work in supporting the centre. The Council noted the work being carried out by both Departments and the MCA to develop, extend and enhance the services of the centre across the island. Ministers welcomed the fact that both Departments and the centre were scoping the potential for expansion of the services at Middletown to meet emergent needs in both jurisdictions.

The Council noted the activity on pupil, youth, student and teacher exchanges on a North/South basis and the valuable experience that it has provided to those involved. Ministers welcomed the approval of funding under the PEACE PLUS programme under the Shared Learning Together heading, including for North/South school civic exchanges and under the youth mental health and well-being area. Ministers welcomed the proposals made by the two Education Departments and Mary Immaculate College, Limerick, to extend development and delivery of the teacher research exchange (T-REX) across both jurisdictions. The Council noted the work undertaken by the North/South Education and Training Standards Committee on endorsing undergraduate and postgraduate youth work programmes. The Council noted the work of the North/South youth work sector practice development hub in strengthening and developing sustainable North/South youth work sector relationships and enhancing the quality of the learning experience of young people participating in youth services across the island.

Ministers also welcomed the continuing collaborative work of the two education inspectorates and noted an update on inspection cooperation and engagement since 2021. They agreed that the respective inspectorates, along with their commissioning Departments, should explore the potential for funding to enable either or both inspectorates to be commissioned as the evaluators of choice or preferred evaluators and to provide a complete monitoring and quality assurance evaluation service to relevant projects and programmes.

Ministers welcomed the agreement in principle to commence a pilot cooperation programme in 2024 and 2025 to address educational disadvantage, supported by an allocation of €24 million from the Government of Ireland's Shared Island Fund, which is around £20 million. Ministers agreed that updates on the programme would be provided at future meetings. Ministers also welcomed the focus on addressing educational disadvantage included in the design of the new PEACE PLUS Shared Learning Together programme, related calls for which were published in 2023, and welcomed the recent positive funding announcements worth €13·3 million that have been made to date in respect of the programme.

The Council noted the climate change obligations in place in both jurisdictions. Ministers confirmed the Council's commitment to ongoing collaboration between jurisdictions involving curriculum development, shared teacher professional learning opportunities and shared resources that emphasise sustainability and environmental stewardship. Ministers agreed that that collaboration could extend to sharing knowledge and experience on improvements in the school estate and transportation fleet.

My officials and I look forward to continuing to work in the education sector.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, I welcome the statement. I note that, on educational underachievement, the pilot cooperation programme is due to begin in 2024 and 2025 with €24 million from the Irish Government's Shared Island unit and that further details will be provided in due course. With respect, we are in 2024 already. When do you expect to be able to come forward with more detail on how that will be deployed on a cross-border basis and how schools on the northern side of the border and, indeed, the sector can engage with that fund?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The funding is exclusively for Northern Ireland. I provided the detail in a written ministerial statement. I have already announced it. It was launched last week, and the details are in that. We are standing the programme up. There will be programme boards in every council area, and I would just refer the Minister to the written ministerial statement for an answer to his question.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I welcome the positive engagement that is taking place on an all-island basis, particularly on education. Tackling educational underachievement has to be a priority. Did the Minister have discussions with his Southern counterparts with regard to the Delivering Equality of Opportunity In Schools (DEIS) school model, and does he believe that it could be a template in the North to tackle educational disadvantage?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for his comments. Where learning can be gained from either jurisdiction, we need to make sure that we share it. Where there is opportunity to look at educational underachievement and disadvantage, I am very much up for doing that. The programme that we announced last week is significant in how it builds on the 'A Fair Start' report. Now that we have officially announced the programme, we will continue to develop the criteria for and outworkings of it. It will make a very real impact. It is about a whole-community response with not only schools but other organisations, which could be churches or youth organisations. It is about supporting parents as well. I am pleased to be able to roll the programme out, but it will partly be for the programme boards in each area to work through the exact details of how it will operate in order to ensure that it makes the kind of impact that we want. Where we can learn from other jurisdictions, we should do so.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

I welcome the Minister's focus on educational disadvantage and underattainment. I know that he plans to visit EastSide Learning in my constituency, which does so much great work in that area. Will the Minister provide further detail on how relevant organisations will be able to apply for and engage with the programme?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The primary focus is on educational underachievement. There is also an element to do with the teacher research exchange, or T-REX, that I talked about. In that scheme, there is a programme called Bringing Live Arts to Students and Teachers (BLAST), which takes a type of creative industry approach. It is about asking how we can increase creative and performing arts in schools.

The scheme is being taken forward now. In every local government area, there will be a scheme somewhere. There are 15 specific areas. Every parliamentary constituency in Belfast is covered, and, in that respect, East Belfast is included. I look forward to meeting representatives from EastSide Learning in due course to see how it can be part of the programmes that we want to take forward in the constituency of East Belfast.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Before I call Robbie Butler, I advise the Members who came in late that they will be called after the other Members. I do not want them to think that they are being excluded for any particular reason. They will be called.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his very welcome update. Minister, will you give us a bit more detail on the PEACE PLUS funds for the Shared Learning Together programme and the cross-border element? Will you also give us an update on the quantum of money available for shared education projects in Northern Ireland?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Out of the elements of PEACE PLUS funding that the Department of Education continues to take forward, the key one is reducing educational disadvantage. It is now called the RAISE programme. It is about raising levels of achievement for individuals, schools and communities. It will build on what was contained in the 'A Fair Start' report. It has been welcomed by those who were involved in that. That is one of the key funding issues from which we have been getting support.

I mentioned Middletown Centre for Autism in my statement, which is a centre of excellence. It provides support in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. What more could Middletown do, particularly around special needs and supporting other schools? There is real opportunity in that area, and it is one where, if we can do it across both countries, we should do so.

Cathy Mason (Sinn Féin, South Down)

It is very welcome that the Minister is engaging so positively with his counterparts in the South. I especially welcome the announcement about the Shared Island Fund. I am concerned that nowhere in South Down has been included in the RAISE programme. What criteria were used to inform decisions on locations for the project?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The criteria that were used are there and will be robust when it comes to questions about which areas were included. The programme includes 15 areas in Northern Ireland. We wanted to make sure that there was a geographical spread, and every local government authority is included. It may not extend to every parliamentary constituency in Northern Ireland, but there is a geographic spread. Educational underachievement is the key measurement that was used to identify areas that need the greatest amount of support because the programme is targeted at reducing educational underachievement. There were criteria to identify the number of areas in which work will be taken forward. There has to be a cut-off point. Not everywhere will benefit from the programme, but I ensured that every part of Northern Ireland had schemes in communities. Every local authority will be involved.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Minister, on North/South programmes, I read in the statement about common work programmes, teacher and pupil exchanges, pilot programmes, collaboration on inspectorates and funded programmes. When one looks at east-west programmes, one finds in your pretty threadbare 'Safeguarding the Union' document two lines about twinning arrangements between schools in Northern Ireland and GB. That is not much of a match, is it, Minister?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member, I know, will be pleased that I have been engaging east-west, and he will welcome that. Before the general election was called, I had met the UK Secretary of State for Education, Gillian Keegan, and the Schools Minister. Indeed, before the election was called, there was to have been a meeting of the Scottish, Welsh and English Ministers of Education and me, which I would have hosted here in Northern Ireland. The Member is right that we need to learn from all the jurisdictions that can help children here. Where I can get information from the Republic of Ireland, I absolutely will do so; equally, I want to make sure that we are supported in developing our education system by learning from Great Britain. I have been engaging on that, and I know that the Member will welcome my engagements on the east-west dimension.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I welcome the appointment of Sheila Darling as the chair of the Middletown centre. I worked with her on the board of governors of a school of which she was the principal. I know that she will deliver and help to support an expert service there.

Will there be specific support for groups to help them participate in the North/South youth exchange programmes? Having delivered programmes for 10 years on that front, I know that they are beneficial for communities in the North and in the South.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Let me give a more detailed answer to the Member on what support is available for exchanges, because best practice, shared learning and shared experiences benefit everybody who is involved in them. I will write to the Member specifically on what support there is for youth engagement.

Nick Mathison (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his statement, which is a welcome announcement. He will be aware that all research into best practice for place-based interventions shows that they work best when there is collaboration between Departments and the community and voluntary sector. How will the Minister ensure that he collaborates with Executive colleagues, the community and voluntary sector and other sources of funding to ensure that the interventions have maximum impact?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Chairman of the Education Committee raises an important point about collaboration in the Executive and in Departments. We have been doing that and have been getting support from Executive colleagues. As the programme boards are stood up, they take a whole-community approach. We need to make sure that key stakeholders in Departments are involved in that, because it is not solely about education. Making sure that we provide support for education in communities also has benefits for health and the criminal justice system, particularly where we are working in areas of disadvantage. The announcement was made last week, but it did not get covered. It may get covered now that the issue has been aired. It is a significant announcement of £20 million and of programmes that will be established across Northern Ireland that will benefit people, particularly where there is educational underachievement and disadvantage in our communities. That is to be welcomed.

Kate Nicholl (Alliance, Belfast South)

The Minister will be aware of the alarming figures for school attendance. I am curious to know how the RAISE programme will address attendance rates.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Absenteeism levels, particularly after COVID, have been a challenge across every sector. They are part of the reason why it is important that we keep schools open, because absenteeism is at its highest level since pre COVID. It got worse after COVID because of the lockdown measures that were put in place. I am concerned about absenteeism levels. We are working to address that, but we are living with a legacy of not having had schools open. We need to make sure that we can keep our schools open. Part of the reason why I welcomed the suspension of industrial action is that we were able to keep schools open today. That is vital, particularly for making sure that our special schools can stay open for our most vulnerable. Hopefully, I will have more to say on that at Question Time later this afternoon.

We need to address absenteeism. School' principals do incredible work. Some go to houses, driving their own vehicles, in order to try to find out how they can help children come to school. Absenteeism is particularly acute where there is disadvantage. That is why reducing educational underachievement through the RAISE programme, with its whole-community response that is aimed at getting people into school, will also have a benefit. If you are not in school or in the right setting — what other settings are there that can be useful in trying to encourage young people to engage in educational programmes? — you are not getting educated.

Danny Baker (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for his statement and for the continued positive working relationships between the Education Departments in the North and the South.

How exactly will children with special educational needs benefit from the introduction of the RAISE programme?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Where the programmes operate in communities, all the schools in those communities will be able to participate to varying degrees. Let us get the programme boards set up. A coordinator will be appointed in each area, and that will be an important role that will be co-designed in the communities. Templates can be followed, but, ultimately, we need local communities to take some ownership of the programme so that they can be part of it. It is about a whole-community response. In that respect, if a scheme is operating in an area, all the school settings should be able to participate in it.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Given the budgetary challenges that we face due to the persistent underfunding of our public services by successive British Governments, does the Minister expect there to be other opportunities for additional funding through the Shared Island unit to help to support the education system and its priorities?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We are significantly funded through the Treasury because of Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom, which is something that I welcome. Could we have more? Yes, we could. We are making that case, and ministerial colleagues have made it, to the Treasury. The interim fiscal framework helped with additional funding. As Minister, I still need to get on with the job with the resources that I have available to me, as challenging as that is. It will be difficult. Where there can be additional sources of funding that will benefit the children and young people of Northern Ireland, we should avail ourselves of them. If, as in this case, that comes from the Shared Island Fund, let us take that funding. The Government in the Republic of Ireland did not ask for any strings to be attached to the funding and did not ask to be part of the design of the programme; it was left entirely to the Department of Education and this Government to do that. If the Republic of Ireland's Government are able to support that, I welcome that. If there are opportunities for further support from the Republic of Ireland and through seeking to get the proper funding formula in place in the United Kingdom context, we need to do that and make sure that we properly resource our public services.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Thank you very much. I note that Justin McNulty has come into the Chamber. Unfortunately, Justin, you were not here for most of the statement and the rest of it, so I do not think that it would be fair to call you at this point.

That concludes questions to the Minister of Education. As we are running considerably ahead of time, by leave of the Assembly, I will suspend the sitting for approximately 15 minutes until 1.30 pm in order to allow the Health Minister to get himself ready and get the appropriate information to Members.

The sitting was suspended at 1.14 pm and resumed at 1.30 pm.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I have received notice from the Minister of Health that he wishes to make a statement. I want to say, however, that Standing Orders require Ministers to provide written copies of their statement at least 30 minutes in advance of its being made. Standing Order 18A(2) states:

"Where this has not been possible he ... shall state to the Assembly the reason."

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I begin by apologising for the tardy release of the statement. As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, the Order Paper indicated that I would not be on my feet until 4.00 pm. I was in a series of meetings, culminating in one with the Finance Minister, and I was unaware of the supreme efficiency with which the Chamber was discharging its business since it first sat earlier today.

Before I get into the subject of the Department of Health and health and social care, I offer my profound condolences to our colleague Colm Gildernew, who has so tragically lost his nephew. A very good friend of mine drowned 25 years ago this year, and it never leaves you. My thoughts are very much with Colm.

I am grateful to be able to come to the House at the earliest opportunity to offer Members a sense of my vision as Minister of Health. I assure Members that, having served in this place for 13 years, I am happy to affirm that the House is the ultimate authority and decision-making body of devolution, and I commit to giving it its place. As a minor example, I decided to make these remarks in the Chamber before speaking in any detail to the media, and I look forward to forging good relationships with the Health Committee, albeit my first act was to bring the Chamber to a standstill for a quarter of an hour.

I begin by offering profound thanks to my immediate predecessor, Robin Swann, who not once but twice stepped forward to undertake the enormous and multiple challenges of being Northern Ireland's Health Minister and providing stalwart leadership. I also acknowledge all those who came before Robin: Bairbre de Brún, who, like Robin, served two spells in office; Michael McGimpsey; Edwin Poots; Jim Wells; Simon Hamilton; and our current First Minister, Michelle O'Neill.

From the start, I state that I have no intention of engaging in criticism of any previous Health Minister, because I do not see how such criticism improves the prospects of a single patient. I am sure also that each and every one of them had at the forefront of their mind, as I will, improving patient outcomes, along with promoting and advancing a respectful, positive working environment for each and every member of the Health and Social Care (HSC) family.

I refuse to accept the fatalistic narrative coming from some that the National Health Service is spiralling towards inevitable failure. In three short words, my ambition is this: for better outcomes. Obstacles to better outcomes include short-term challenges, the current unprecedented funding shortfall, excessive waiting times and damage to public confidence, as well as a workforce that has suffered much too much from the regular absence of supportive leadership coming from this place.

Then comes my longer-term ambition, or what David Trimble famously called "the vision thing." In his speech accepting the Nobel Peace Prize with John Hume, David said:

"Some critics complain that I lack 'the vision thing'. But vision in its pure meaning is clear sight. That does not mean I have no dreams. I do."

So do I, and my "vision thing" goes like this: I invite Members to close their eyes, virtually, and imagine a blank map of Northern Ireland. Imagine that there is no health service. Imagine that there are no hospitals, GP surgeries or ambulances. The health map is blank. Now ask yourself a series of questions. First, do you want a health service? I am pretty sure that it is a yes to that from everybody. The next question is a little more challenging, and it is this: why do you want a health service? There are at least two answers to that: to heal the sick, and to keep healthy people healthy. Both of those are, of course, valid aspirations. Neither are they mutually exclusive. It is not one or the other; it is, of course, both. Immediately, however, we have introduced the question of balance. Balance will inevitably lead to a debate, a judgement call and an element of subjectivity. Even in an ideal world, in which we had limitless budgets and resources to keep people healthy, others would still get sick, so we would still need healthcare professionals, who would need facilities, equipment and medicines. I want to populate that blank map with the best projection of the ideal health service for today and tomorrow, including the people, the resources and, yes, the budget required to keep as many people healthy for as long as possible and offer whatever care and support they require. If we were to superimpose today's map of health provision, it is certain that you would not have a match. The long-term challenge is to figure out how to get from A to B in manageable and affordable steps. That is my "vision thing". That is my direction.

I say from the get-go that reform means many different things to many people, but it is primarily about securing better outcomes for our population by changing the way in which Health and Social Care works and meeting the needs of our population better. There are, of course, key enablers, such as developing the full range of roles in our workforce and using digital technology to improve the safety, quality and capacity of our system. It is not primarily about cutting costs or saving money, but if that is the by-product — in some cases, it should be — that is all well and good. Cutting costs is not the primary objective. In addition, I make it absolutely clear that it is not about closing hospitals.

Meanwhile, there is the here and now, which is my second great challenge. I have been asking myself a couple of key questions. Is the health and social care system in Northern Ireland the best that it can be in respect of the service that it delivers and its value for money? Are the people who are the health service — the doctors, nurses, social care staff, allied health professionals and the multitude of important support staff — as respected and rewarded as they should be? On the first point, the current 2024-25 Budget assessment, which was published last week, clearly indicates that the answer is no, in the service that is delivered. I shall return to the Budget in a moment. On the latter point, I promise that I shall value every single member of the HSC family who is working to deliver good outcomes for patients. Everybody working in our health service has a place, and every place should be valued. I want them to feel that they are making a positive difference and that they are appreciated and valued. I understand from my initial meetings with senior HSC figures and a number of the royal colleges that workforce planning and workforce remuneration are issues that continue to need urgent attention. I intend to build on Robin Swann's transformational work in that area.

For me, the job of Health Minister, which I am honoured and humbled to hold, is personal. My life, like those of so may others, has been bookended by health challenges that have been met by great people in good jobs in our health service. As a young man, I had significant breathing difficulties. I remember many sessions at the Ulster Hospital, trying to unblock my lungs. I hope that you accept that it is not a boast but a testament to the sheer brilliance of the health professionals who helped me that I left school with an Irish international athletics vest. OK, it is a boast.

In recent years, I developed a heart condition. I do not think that I am being melodramatic in stating that it was my GP who started a process that may well have saved my life. I stand here today with two stents, a pacemaker and a defibrillator, so some could call me the bionic Minister. My mother passed away in March 2020 in the Ulster Hospital after a short illness, from which I gained a huge insight into the professionals who are the health service. I saw a young doctor who perched herself on the edge of my mother's bed, took her hand and, with beautiful professionalism, made sure that Mum knew that she was not going to recover from her condition. What I did not see was the staff member who came back on rota after a week off and burst into tears when she saw how badly my mother had deteriorated in the intervening days. Those are two very different roles — a doctor and a member of catering staff — but both of them were totally committed to performing their roles in what they clearly and rightly define as "good jobs".

I have to say that I am glad that my mother passed away before I made one of the worst decisions of my life — the decision to disregard COVID regulations. I can only continue to repeat the apology that I offered at the time. As I said last week, it is a stain on my record that I cannot wash away.

As indicated, I have begun my conversations and consultations on the future of the health service in Northern Ireland. I have three years to make a difference. My key areas of focus should not be a surprise to those who know me. The most stubborn challenges are these: delivering reform; tackling waiting lists; investing in social care; addressing mental health; and confronting persistent health inequalities. Of course, those are not mutually exclusive categories, and they will need primary care and social care as much as they will need secondary care.

We have detailed plans in place for waiting lists, and where those have been funded, the proof is there that they work. I will continue to drive through those improvements forcefully, wherever and whenever possible. That includes reform, and reform needs funding that yields a long-term, irreversible impact. That needs, frankly, parallel funding to reduce lists and to ensure that they do not grow again by addressing the fundamental issue of closing the gap in demand versus capacity.

Sadly, the impact of cancer on our fellow citizens is growing, not least because people are living longer. It is projected that, by 2040, rates of cancer will rise by 45% among men and by 58% among women. I will pause for a moment to allow the House to think about how many family members, friends and constituents will be affected by that.

When I started campaigning for better mental health and well-being provision after first being elected in 2011, the response was, frankly, underwhelming. Some MLAs were not entirely convinced; many others simply did not get it. My motion to appoint a mental health champion was defeated in the House. I am happy to acknowledge that that has changed. The battle for awareness has been won. Now we need to fund the action plan to make a difference. Having spoken recently to the mental health champion, Professor Siobhán O'Neill, I know that the budget meets only one eighth of this year's delivery plan. Mental health is also a personal issue for me. My wife endured an episode of clinical depression many years ago. The answer was not merely pills and tablets; human engagement with skilled professionals was critical to her recovery.

Both as a broadcast journalist and when I served as a Commissioner for Victims and Survivors of the Troubles, I saw the horrific impact of poor mental health as a legacy of what we so euphemistically call "the Troubles". Again, if you take a map of the hotspots of the conflict, measured by bombings, shootings and murders, and you superimpose a contemporaneous map of hotspots for mental issue issues, measured by attempted and completed suicides and by drink and drug addictions, you will see a match. It is no accident that those hotspots are often areas of deprivation, where health inequalities are most pronounced. I am therefore working to develop an initiative that I expect to be able to announce in the very near future.

For me, health inequalities represent the overarching issue for so many of the critical challenges facing Health and Social Care. I do not want a two-tier system where timely access to treatments is the preserve of those who can afford to go private. I do not want to live in a society where those who live in deprived areas have such pronounced lower life expectancy, greater health struggles and worse outcomes. That, of course, is a challenge for all parts of government. I want to work with my ministerial colleagues and the resources that I have to develop a plan to do more to address health inequalities at a community level. I will bring back more detailed plans in due course.

In conclusion, I must return to the Budget. The main parties of the Assembly have all argued, with some success, that the UK Government should review our block grant and fund us based on need, rather than on population.

It is a matter of regret that, when it comes to the Department of Health's budget, need is not mentioned. The argument becomes, "But, sure, you are getting over half of the total funds."

We need to remember that health and social care is about the service to the public, not the party designation of the Health Minister. I knew, coming into the role, that the financial outlook was dire, but I have been stunned by the budget briefings that I have received. I encourage MLAs to engage with their respective trusts; the chief executives would welcome that.

I fear that the House or parts of it may not fully understand the consequences for healthcare. The stark reality is that, if I implement the current budget, the consequence will be that many patients will suffer harm. Indeed, I note the joint letter from the collective HSC chairs in which they state that the potential that some cutbacks:

"would impact damagingly on the whole community in Northern Ireland, particularly the most vulnerable."

I am afraid that I have added an unwelcome phrase to my lexicon in the last few days: joining the assessment of cuts with low, medium or high impact come cuts whose impact will be "catastrophic". Again, those are not my words or the words of my party: that is how our health trusts have categorised them.

In my first few days, I have met senior trust and departmental officials and have heard at first hand about the rigorous, ongoing work to deliver hundreds of millions of pounds' worth of savings that will have a low or medium impact. Of course, we will continue to strive to do more, but those savings are at an unprecedented level. They will be challenging to deliver and will have some impact on patients and service users. I warn MLAs that some will not be without significant controversy. Even then, my Department calculates a very significant gap once those savings are made, and the only way that the gap can be closed is to deliver a break-even budget through taking the high- and catastrophic- impact decisions. That is the reality of the Budget that the House passed less than a week ago. Those decisions would require reductions in acute beds, home care hours and care home beds, all having significant and sustained consequences for elective care, hospital discharges, patient flow, emergency department overcrowding and ambulance handover times. In short, catastrophic cuts will simply make the situation worse. Pressures on services and staff, already at severe levels, will be significantly intensified. It also means that, as we stand, there is no feasible route to affording pay awards.

I recognise that I must play my part, alongside all Executive colleagues, to help deliver a hugely challenging Budget, but, for that to work, they and the Members of the House also need to be willing to look at the real challenges facing Health and Social Care and, therefore, the most vulnerable in our society. Let me be clear: cuts with catastrophic impacts? Not on my watch.

Meanwhile, I am also actively planning for reform, building on the work already done, and will bring forward more detailed proposals as soon as I can. I have a dual purpose: to offer Members a realistic assessment of the challenges but to try to meet those challenges by working with them. The situation is far from ideal for my Department or that of any other Minister. As the novelist, Ivan Turgenev, puts it:

“If we wait for the moment when everything, absolutely everything is ready, we shall never begin.”

Deputy Speaker, I have begun.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I welcome him to his post and wish him well. As the Opposition, we continue our offer to work constructively with the Minister in his work.

The trusts are under serious pressure. As mentioned, the chief executive officers have today warned of catastrophic impacts with potential impacts on bed closures, operating lists, domiciliary care and nursing care packages. Is a plan being devised by the Minister, with his Executive colleagues, to deliver the finance that is needed to make sure that our trusts are fit for purpose going forward?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question and for his welcome, and I very much look forward to working with the Health Committee.

The Member asked about discussions that I have had with the Executive. He will understand that I have been in post for less than a week. I have met just one other Minister, and that was the Minister of Finance, whom I met earlier today. I impressed on her the fact that I want to work in a collective manner to deliver both for Health and a full Programme for Government. I have always been a fan of the idea of a results-based Programme for Government, and, in order to do that, we have to get out of departmental silos and think about cross-departmental working.

The one area that I discussed, albeit briefly, with the Minister of Finance this morning was the role of Health in trying to boost the economy. I think particularly of people who are economically inactive. As the Member will know, our rates of economic inactivity are shocking, at 26%-plus. There are a number of factors for that, one of which is the lack of accessible, affordable childcare, but top of the list of inhibitors for people being in a position where they are neither in nor seeking work is health issues, both physical and mental.

I look forward to early engagement with not only Minister Murphy but other Executive colleagues to look at what our priorities will be and at how we can all input our resources, thoughts and energies to make these things happen so that we can finish the mandate with Northern Ireland and its people in a better place than they were when we began it.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I welcome the Minister to his role and congratulate him. I look forward to working with you, Minister. I welcome the statement. Despite the difficult picture, there is a lot in the statement that is definitely encouraging, and I am keen to work with you on that in the time ahead.

Everyone is affected by this — our families, friends, neighbours and constituents — so it is in all our interests to get the best outcome. Your key priorities are positive, Minister. They are certainly what we would like to see done, but everything is underpinned by workforce. Can the Minister advise when we can expect to see a plan around workforce to bring those priorities forward?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Chair of the Committee. I enjoyed our engagement earlier today, and I very much welcome your good wishes, Chair.

On your specific question, I cannot give you a time frame, but I can certainly commit to trying to establish a time frame. I assure you that it is a priority for me. I have already met some of the trust chiefs and their financial directors, and it is clear to me that there are some really intractable problems with workforce. I think particularly of the Southern Trust and the Western Trust, which are closest to the border, the impact of Sláintecare and the fact that there are consultants, for example, who can easily migrate not a huge distance and certainly without spending an awful lot of time travelling to find themselves in a good post on the other side of the border earning considerably more money. It is not just about attracting the workforce; it is about making the environment attractive to people and making sure that the remuneration is as good as it can be. I want everyone who works in the health and social care sector to be as well paid as they can be.

There has been a debate in the Economy Committee and the Department about what constitutes a "good job". I was fearful that there might be a kind of elitist definition of that. I do not think that there will be, by the way. From my point of view, a good job is a job that means that, when you wake up, you look forward to going to work to do your shift, you feel valued, your terms and conditions are good and you feel that your job is worthwhile. That is a broad definition of what I would want every job to be for everybody working in the HSC in Northern Ireland. That needs a strategy, and, as I said, it will be a priority for me. I look forward to bringing it to the Committee in due course.

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

I congratulate Mr Nesbitt on his appointment. I also congratulate him on his vision and positivity. Across Northern Ireland, people want to hear from our Ministers about what they can deliver and not constantly about what they cannot deliver.

With that in mind, the Member will be aware that the Northern Ireland Children's Hospice is particularly close to my heart and the hearts of my constituents across North Belfast. The previous Health Minister refused to put in a bid for additional funding for that amazing charity, despite requests from the Finance Minister. Can the Health Minister give a commitment in the Chamber that he will look at exhausting all options to give the Northern Ireland Children's Hospice the funding that it needs?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for those comments and look forward to working with him in the remainder of the mandate. As I said, I came here because I wanted to give the House its place before engaging in any substantive way with the media. However, I hope that Members will understand that, as this is day five of my being in post, I am not down into the weeds and the great detail. I am still receiving pretty high-level briefings. It will be a short number of weeks before I am across the fine detail, so I am reluctant to make any substantive decisions. However, I understand that the Member asks me simply to commit to looking at it, rather than to come to a conclusion, and, on that basis, I am absolutely more than happy to make that commitment.

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. It is good to hear about his priorities for the rest of his tenure. We all want better outcomes, but everyone in the House knows that many serious issues require urgent attention.

I welcome the Minister's comments, particularly about avoiding the two-tier health system in Northern Ireland, but the reality is that that already exists. Many people across Northern Ireland, including my constituency of East Antrim, languish on waiting lists for years, while those who can afford to pay — some of them may be using huge amounts of their life savings or even borrowed money — are able to get timely treatment. That is a sad state of affairs and one that we should work to rectify.

The Minister will be aware of the workforce pressures and the ongoing industrial action, especially the upcoming second strike by junior doctors. I hope that the Minister will meet that group of workers urgently to try to avert that.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Will the Member come to his question, please?

Danny Donnelly (Alliance, East Antrim)

What is the Minister doing about community pharmacies? Twelve community pharmacies have closed in the past year due to financial pressures. It is vital that people are able to receive medication across Northern Ireland. I would like to hear the Minister's plans for community pharmacies, but I appreciate that he is only in the role a couple of days. As a Member of the Health Committee, I look forward to working with him.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I do not want to frustrate the Member by again saying that it is a little early for me to lay out a definitive plan, but, during the short period building up to taking over the Ministry, I visited a community pharmacy in Killyleagh, which is in my constituency, and got a good briefing from a practitioner on the issues and some suggestions for potential solutions.

With regard to what the Member said about tackling health inequalities, I am passionate about that subject. When people want a health service, we tend to go to that service: to a GP surgery, a hospital or some other facility. I am starting to pose this question to colleagues: to what extent can we reverse that direction of travel and take the facilities and resources to the community? Members will probably be aware that, during the COVID crisis, at times, the uptake of vaccinations was quite low, and people had to go to the likes of a GP surgery. When vaccinations were taken into the heart of the community, the uptake rate went up. There are precedents for what I am thinking about. I do not think that I am reinventing the wheel; it is more a question of emphasis. It is about making sure that people, particularly in communities that are perceived to be in areas of deprivation, get the services as close to where they live as possible and that those services are as accessible to them as possible. I suspect that that will make a real difference.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Questions on the Minister of Health's statement will continue after the question for urgent oral answer. I ask Members to take their ease. The next Member to speak on the Minister of Health's statement will be Mrs Dillon.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker [Ms Ní Chuilín] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Economy

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

It is time for questions to the Minister for the Economy. We will start with listed questions. Questions 1, 2, 4 and 8 have been withdrawn.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

3. Mr McGuigan asked the Minister for the Economy whether the eligibility criteria for the energy efficiency capital grant (EECG) will be kept under review. (AQO 497/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The energy efficiency capital grant was announced in early May and is open for applications across a wide range of businesses. The grant is aimed at helping businesses to reduce emissions and lower their energy demands through the installation of energy efficiency measures and renewable technologies. The application process is managed through an online digital portal that facilitates live tracking of enquiries and applications. Invest NI will report monthly on the scheme to my Department to help us to understand how delivery is progressing against policy objectives. Additionally, in the spirit of continual improvement, formal reviews of the scheme's progress after the first six months and at 12-month intervals thereafter have been built into the approval process, whereby all aspects of the enquiry, eligibility and application process will be reviewed and evaluated.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Ar a chéad dul síos, fáilte ar ais.

[Translation: First of all, welcome back.]

Minister, how will you ensure that the scheme will promote and advance regional balance?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member. I want to record my gratitude to my colleague Deirdre Hargey for stepping up in my absence and keeping momentum going in the Department.

On the question of regional balance for this scheme in particular, Invest NI will use the portal and closely monitor the enquiries and applications that are being received and approved across the region. That includes capturing and tracking live data on the geographical spread by council area and industry group. That data is fundamental for my Department to monitor and ensure that there is a better spatial and functional distribution of the grant across the region. Furthermore, Invest NI has a dedicated marketing plan for the EECG that can be tailored to meet local business needs, with a built-in flexible approach that will address any regional imbalances. A range of social media activities alongside continued engagement with key stakeholders will be monitored, and the marketing approach will be adapted to ensure that all business groups are informed of the opportunities that the grant presents.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

As question 4 has been withdrawn, I call Liz Kimmins.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

5. Ms Kimmins asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on the flood compensation payments. (AQO 499/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Local councils are responsible for making payments under the flood relief schemes funded by the Department for the Economy. There were 108 applications to the enhanced flood scheme across two councils. As of 3 June, the councils have issued letters of offer to 27 businesses, with a value of £1·601 million. To date, payments of £310,000 have been made to 22 businesses. Further payments will be made to businesses on receipt of a signed letter of offer and any required documentation to evidence costs.

There was a total of 82 applications to the flood hardship scheme across four councils. As of 3 June, hardship grants totalling £135,000 had been paid to 39 businesses.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I am delighted to see him back in his place after his absence.

We have heard of the delays in councils getting some of the funding out. To date, how much funding has the Department released to councils to fund the flood grant scheme?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Like the Member, I represent one of the areas where flooding occurred, so I know of the urgency of getting funding out to businesses. I hope that councils can make every effort to ensure that that happens quickly. I understand that there is a complex process of assessment and verification and a need to protect public funds. Ten million pounds was set aside for support. We hope to see as much of that as possible distributed within a short time. If there is anything left over, we will certainly examine ways in which we can continue to support businesses in the affected areas.

Andrew McMurray (Alliance, South Down)

My question has been answered, so I will withdraw it.

I would just like to welcome the Minister back. It is good to see him.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Minister, it is great to see you back on your feet. I am sure that your recent health scare was a big fright for you and your family.

I want to ask about issues around the distribution of flood grants by councils. Loretta Gallagher of Lorsha Design got an initial payment from the council, but it is now trying to get that back off her because not all of her business is on the ground floor. How can such issues on the distribution of the payments be resolved?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Of course, councils have a responsibility to protect public funding and make sure that funds are distributed appropriately. I would also like to ensure, however, that there is a degree of flexibility. At the outset of our engagement with the councils, we asked them to apply a degree of flexibility to ensure that they understand the real challenges that businesses have suffered as a consequence of the flooding incidents in Newry, Downpatrick and other places last October and that they approach the matter in a can-do way to make sure that they support businesses as best they can.

There is a requirement on businesses to provide evidence of loss and damage, and I hope that they can quickly get down to that. We want to see support getting out as quickly as possible to all the businesses that were affected.

Nick Mathison (Alliance, Strangford)

6. Mr Mathison asked the Minister for the Economy, further to the framework ‘Developing a more strategic approach to 14-19 Education and Training’, when will the agreed measures of success for the 14-19 landscape be published. (AQO 500/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The 14-19 framework is a joint endeavour between my Department and the Department of Education. The Minister of Education and I have met to discuss our approach to the work and our shared priorities, taking account of the current education and skills environment. As a first step, we have prioritised careers as a priority area for delivery and have tasked officials from our Departments to produce a joint programme of work. That indicates our commitment to collaboration in the interests of young people. On the wider framework, the Minister of Education and I will be considering how best to prioritise the other elements of the framework, building on that collaborative approach and using insights from stakeholders on the ground.

Nick Mathison (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be aware that a joint Economy and Education Committee met last week, at which officials from both Departments were clear that no action plan would be published in relation to the strand of work on careers advice that the Minister referred to. How can the Assembly hold your Department to account if there are no targets, benchmarks or outcomes against which to measure your work?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A report was published, I believe, when the Assembly was down, from which flowed an implementation plan. I think that that is what the Member is referring to. That was used for internal guidance for officials on how they brought that work forward. I understand that there were no plans to publish that, but I am sure, given that the officials came before both Committees, that they are keen to engage and to ensure that the Committees and, indeed, the Ministers who have tasked them with that area of joint responsibility are kept up to date on the progress that they are making.

We have been clear that we want to begin with careers. We want to ensure that careers advice is available to all young people in a consistent manner. We want that to be, if you like, a pathfinder to get that joint area of work up and running between the two Departments, which will be essential for young people. We are keen to develop that early and to push on with the rest of that agenda. We will be happy to keep you and the Committees updated on any progress.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I call Colin McGrath. No? OK.

I call Diane Dodds.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

7. Mrs Dodds asked the Minister for the Economy to outline what schemes are being made available to assist businesses to meet climate change targets. (AQO 501/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I recognise the need to assist businesses to meet our climate change targets. My Department is working with Invest NI to deliver financial support for businesses through a new scaled phase of its energy and resource efficiency programme. The main part of that programme is the energy efficiency capital grant scheme, which was announced in early May and is open for applications across a wide range of businesses that meet the scheme criteria. I have committed £40 million to the scheme, which will run until 2030, providing essential support for businesses to reduce emissions while also creating economic opportunities in the green economy.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister. It is really important that, in this aspect of the economy, Northern Ireland does not lose its competitive edge. It is equally important that consumers are not left to pay for climate change targets that are set in the House. What new programmes has the Minister bid for, and what bids have been accepted in relation to climate change targets?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said, the primary focus of that programme is the energy efficiency support grant. In the region of 600 applications have been received, a couple of hundred of which have already been processed. That scheme only opened in May, so you can see that there is a wide range of interest in it.

We also are engaging with the British Government on the investment zone, and we have already indicated that we would like to see the £150 million earmarked for that spent on green technology and green industry. We have an opportunity, if we harness it correctly, not only to create jobs and support innovation, thus creating new and better jobs, but to work on the areas of renewable energy. We live in a country that is high in wind resource and other sources of renewable energy, so we need to make sure that we get to a situation in which that can benefit business consumers and household consumers, thereby reducing our energy costs and the necessity to rely on fossil fuels and on an insecure demand, which tends to fluctuate.

Our opportunity to promote renewable electricity and renewable heat will benefit consumers and businesses alike. We have identified the £40 million that I have dedicated out of the Department and that £150 million, and we will continue to work on other areas, including the use of financial transactions capital (FTC) to support the net zero accelerator fund. We will work on all those areas to make sure not only that we create and improve jobs but that we reduce the costs to consumers and businesses.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I welcome the Minister back to his position.

Given the funding constraints imposed on us, can the Minister explain what he is doing to leverage alternative sources of funding for climate change schemes?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I mentioned, we are working with Invest NI and the Strategic Investment Board (SIB) to develop the net zero accelerator fund. It is intended to be a catalyst for attracting and complementing private investment in the green economy. We are also working with the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities (DLUHC) to establish the enhanced investment zone, which, as I said, is a fund of £150 million. We are in the process of co-designing that project for the North alongside the Department in London. Other available funding sources include the Industrial Energy Transformation Fund (IETF), PEACE PLUS and the Shared Island Fund (SIF), and it is important that businesses leverage that broader funding landscape, with a focus on reducing emissions and growing the green economy.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I also welcome the Minister back to his post. Climate change is delivering adverse weather events, such as the floods that we saw in Downpatrick. Is the Minister open to applications from the council to help promote and support footfall, which has been obliterated since that event last year?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The high street task force, which is responsible for a lot of those matters, is led by another Department, and the Department for the Economy makes a contribution to it. We are keen to work with all Departments to help the high street, particularly in areas that have been unexpectedly damaged. High streets are struggling in general with the economic conditions that we have, and Newry and Downpatrick in particular received a serious blow last autumn. While my primary focus is to make sure that councils deliver funding support for those affected by flooding, on the work of the high street task force in a broader sense, all Departments have a duty to try to understand the challenges facing our high streets and to provide cross-departmental support wherever we can.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

9. Mr Brooks asked the Minister for the Economy to outline the work that her Department is carrying out to ensure universities and further education colleges work together to offer qualifications that are not competitive but complementary to each other. (AQO 503/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I agree that our universities and colleges should work collaboratively to deliver the best outcomes for learners. It is also important to recognise that schools and community-based providers play an important role in ensuring a joined-up and effective education sector. In order to ensure that colleges and universities in particular work together in a complementary and not competitive manner, the tertiary education senior leaders' forum has been established. It provides a place for senior leaders from my Department, the Department of Education, further education colleges and higher education institutions to come together to consider strategic matters of common interest, including qualifications. The forum's core purpose is to foster greater collaboration among all those involved in education post compulsory school age and to help move towards a more coherent tertiary education sector.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I was glad to hear more about that at the concurrent Committee of the Committee for the Economy and Committee for Education last week. Will he agree that it is important that, while they offer a range of excellent courses, by making incursions into courses that have traditionally been served by our colleges, our universities do not undermine our excellent FE sector, which is vital for our economy?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

There may be a perception that universities are moving into that space at the expense of colleges. I think that work has been done to establish that that is not necessarily the case. We need to make sure, in a system in which we have very little money to spend — that is why the work between ourselves and the Department of Education across all these matters is important — that we use the resources that we have as best as we possibly can. The responsibility on us as Executive Ministers is to make sure that the system works for education for not just young people but, in terms of the public finances needed to run it, as seamlessly as possible so that we do not get duplication or contradiction but the most complementary system possible. That is why a forum such as this, and the joint work by both Departments, is important.

There is a drop-off. I am advised that we have the lowest numbers of that age cohort since the 1950s. That could explain some of the drop-off in college numbers. Nevertheless, we have a very good college estate and further education sector, and I want to see them fully utilised. We have a real challenge in getting people and skills into the workforce. The college sector is vital in delivering that. I have had discussions with it about that, and I want to make sure, in our joint work with the Education Department and that forum, that the entire system works in a complementary fashion rather than in a competitive one.

David Honeyford (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I welcome the Minister back and wish him good health going forward. Will the Minister give us an update on the reform of the delivery of further education?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The first priority when I came into office was to get the lecturers' pay issues resolved. I am glad that we were able to get that done. I have had a meeting with the principals of the colleges, and we will continue to bring that reform work forward. We want to make sure that we have a system that recognises the unique product of each college, their autonomy and the communities that they serve in a regional way across the North. We also want to make sure that it is coherent and cohesive and tackles some of the big issues that we have identified as problems within the economy, primarily skills and getting young people into education, offering pathways to people who have been out of the education or training system. The colleges are uniquely placed to do that. As I said in a previous answer, they have a good estate and a very good system, and we want to make sure that they are fully utilised. Currently, they are not fully utilised, so any reform that we bring to the fore will be about how we fully utilise those and make sure that colleges act most efficiently and deliver for the economy and for society.

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

On behalf of myself and the Committee, I welcome you back to office, Minister. I welcome your commitment to the FE sector and highlight your point that it is important that the sector and its campuses serve the communities in which they are located. In his recent discussion with college principals, did the Minister raise the importance of the Castlereagh campus of Belfast Met, something that my East Belfast colleagues continue to champion?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

At the joint meeting that I had with them, we did not get down to individual campuses, but I have had discussions. I met the Member's party leader in relation to the Castlereagh campus. I have had correspondence and issues raised with me by other elected representatives. I had the pleasure of visiting the college in the Member's constituency and chatting to the principal and senior staff there. We want to make sure that the system works well. There is a good offering there. There are very good facilities that are well located. We have resolved, and I hope that we continue to work to enhance, the role of and support for the people who work in that system, in the delivery of teaching but also throughout the system, to make sure, if you like, that we have a happy campus, and then to focus on the areas that we have outlined as priorities for the Department for the Economy, particularly in the areas of skills and training.

I have no doubt that there will be individual issues arising among Members about pieces of the estate within various colleges. We want to work through that, but we need a cohesive forum and support for the colleges themselves to get forward with the work that they are doing. I am happy to talk to them about individual areas around some parts of the campuses that have question marks.

Nick Mathison (Alliance, Strangford)

When will the Minister respond to the recommendations from the independent review of education in relation to FE and HE?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Across nearly all Departments, when Ministers came into office, our primary focus was to ensure that we resolved public-sector pay issues. With the exception of the Department of Education — I understand, however, that there will be, hopefully, some progress with the schools this week — those issues, by and large, have been resolved.

I met representatives from the colleges and talked to them about the issue of reform and the report on them that was done. We intend to bring that work forward now, but we want to ensure that it is not an individual or isolated piece of work. We have an education system in which we have joint responsibility for the 14- to 19-year-old cohort, but we have a responsibility on either side of that as well. I want to make sure that our system is as coherent and cohesive as possible and that it serves all of the community as well as our economic needs in the time ahead.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

10. Mr Beattie asked the Minister for the Economy to outline what consideration she has given to reviewing tuition fees (AQO 504/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have no intention of increasing tuition fees, given that our students already face considerable cost-of-living pressures and that many take on significant debt to access higher education. I am committed to working with the higher education sector to embed sustainable funding arrangements that enable the sector to thrive and create more opportunities for our students.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister. I am glad that you have made a recovery and are back with us today. University application numbers are due to rise by 20% by 2030. What is the plan to increase student places?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We want to see an increase; I have stated that as a desired outcome. The simple answer of placing the burden of the cost of that on students is unfair, because we are in a cost-of-living crisis and are putting thousands and thousands of young people into significant debt just so they can go through higher education. I have committed to working with our institutions to try to see whether we can increase numbers without placing the burden directly on students. Of course, had we more money in the system and a better settlement for our public finances, there would be more opportunities to support more places. My focus is on trying to find ways to work creatively with the educational institutions to grow student numbers. Although there are people who want to leave these shores to go to other places for their university experience, we want to make sure that the many young people who want to stay here have the ability to do so.

Pádraig Delargy (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Will the Minister ensure that the maximum student number (MaSN) cap will not impact the expansion of the Magee campus?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Executive parties made a commitment in the New Decade, New Approach agreement to get the numbers at the Magee campus up to 10,000. I intend to operate to that plan. I discussed with representatives from the universities and, since coming back very recently, with officials the ways in which we can work to ensure that the numbers are increased. It clearly will be a focus. It was an Executive commitment, but it is my responsibility to deliver on it. That is what I intend to do.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

Welcome back, Minister. Will you give us a timeline for the review of student support? When will it be completed, and when will recommendations be made?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We have just got our budgets. We have to analyse what we have. We recognise that we do not have as much as we wanted. Every Department is in the same position. I am sure that you have heard that from other Ministers already today. We do not have the amount of funding that we would like, but, nonetheless, we will continue to provide support for students. We managed to find funding in-year to supplement that support. I am analysing how I can spread my limited budget throughout the various areas of my Department and equality-testing that as well. Once I have done that, I will be able to make announcement about how much support can go towards student support. Following that, there will be some advice on how people can access it.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, it is good to have you back. I agree that we do not want to see any extra burdens on our hard-pressed students. It is also the case that we export an entire university's worth of young people from these shores every year. Many of them want to go, but too many do not want to go, and they do not come back. It is a structural problem in our economy. We have heard a lot about task forces and study groups, but will there be specific actions in the Programme for Government (PFG) on how we will increase student places in our society? Will that be in the PFG?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The easiest way to do that is to have more money. If the Member agrees with me that it is unfair to place that burden on young people, who get themselves in significant debt just to have the benefit of accessing higher education, the easiest thing to do is to increase the funding available to support them. Of course, that is a different conversation to have with the Government in London. I look forward to seeing the Programme for Government being delivered very soon. I am not of the view that purdah should apply in the way that it has been applied to many things. I would like to see the Programme for Government advanced more quickly than that. The Executive have a collective commitment to growing the economy; increasing the number of people who access further and higher education institutions and skills and who remain here is surely a strong way to continue to grow our economy.

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Question 8 — or, rather, 11.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

It is definitely question 11. Minister.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I would rather answer question 8.

[Laughter.]

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

11. Ms Ferguson asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on the Ulster University Magee taskforce. (AQO 505/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I established the independent task force in March under the leadership of Stephen Kelly and Nicola Skelly. The group has met twice, receiving presentations from Ulster University (UU) and Derry City and Strabane District Council. Local business leaders also led a task force discussion on future skills needs in the north-west. The next task force meeting will take place this Wednesday and will be attended by representatives of the local community and by the special envoy for economic affairs, Joe Kennedy. The expansion of the Magee campus to 10,000 students was a commitment in 'New Decade, New Approach' and is key to promoting regional balance, in line with my economic plans. As Minister, I intend to see that commitment delivered.

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his answer. What additional funding has the Department allocated to Magee for expansion in 2024-25?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A total funding package of £152 million has been committed for the expansion of Magee. That includes previously announced funding of £38 million from the Shared Island Fund for a new teaching block, city deals and a future fund as well as investment from the university's reserves. For the next financial year, the Department includes up to £4·1 million resource and up to £14·7 million capital for Magee expansion activities.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The task force will produce a paper in September. The funds that are in place do not take into consideration recommendations that may come from the task force. Minister, are you confident that you will have money to put towards the expansion?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That will require us to engage with UU. The task force will have oversight of and input to a more detailed plan on the allocation of that funding. It will be made available in the financial year to take forward opportunities to expand the Magee campus by developing the infrastructure and increasing student numbers. As the Member rightly said, the task force will come forward with a plan in September. It is aware of the figures that we have been talking about. If it has a different approach, I am happy to listen to that and to try to secure the additional funding. The Member will recognise, as, I am sure, will members of the Committee, the limitations on the funding that we had. Nonetheless, the commitment remains for the expansion of Magee. I see that as an Executive priority, and it is my duty to deliver on it.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

12. Mr T Buchanan asked the Minister for the Economy to outline what level of business support her Department will provide to the childcare sector. (AQO 506/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Provision of high-quality, affordable childcare is a priority for the Executive. On 23 May, the Education Minister outlined a package of measures for early learning and childcare that has been agreed by the Executive. One element of the package is a targeted business support scheme for childcare providers to assist those in financial difficulty and in areas where the demand for childcare exceeds supply. The Executive have initially earmarked £2 million for that purpose. Invest NI has nominated an official to work with my officials and the Department of Education on the design of the scheme. The involvement of my Department and Invest NI will be important to ensure alignment with other business support interventions and compliance with state subsidy requirements.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his response. He will know the importance of the childcare sector in our communities. Will the business support scheme be a one-off or will it be on a recurrent basis?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

A quick response, Minister.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Executive's clear intention is to provide affordable childcare. That is of benefit not only to families, individuals and communities but to the economy, because it allows people to return to work. The Executive have therefore made not a one-off commitment but a commitment over the years, and I sincerely hope that, once we get the schemes started, we will follow them through with the funding necessary to make sure that people can continue to avail themselves of affordable childcare.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Perfect timing. That ends the period for listed questions. We will now move to 15 minutes of topical questions. Questions 2 and 10 have been withdrawn.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

T1. Ms McLaughlin asked the Minister, given that the Assembly is looking forward to scrutinising the subregional economic action plan to be published in September, whether he will ensure that the objectives and actions of the plan do not relate solely to Invest NI. (AQT 331/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The intention behind the subregional action plan is to ensure that we get all the actors in each area to come together to identify the needs of that area. Some of that may be Invest NI work, some of it may be for the Department for the Economy and some of it may be for other Departments. We want to ensure that local areas get some resource, get the necessary structures in place and find their voice in order that they can represent the economic interests of those regions to the centre. I anticipate that the centre will respond accordingly to the needs that have been identified. That work is clearly about democratising local economic impact and ensuring that those voices are clearly heard and that there is resource to match the requirements in each area.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for that answer. I know that he appreciates that a functioning Invest NI alone does not represent regional balance and that it has a much wider remit than that and is about not just his Department, as other Departments have to come in beside him to commit money and resources with him in order to really deliver deep and meaningful regional balance that will have good outcomes. I welcome the Minister's commitment to that. Rather than ask another question, I will say that I know that this is an ongoing issue that needs to be resolved quickly in this mandate.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

T3. Mr Irwin asked the Minister what measures he will take to reduce the number of young people in Newry and Armagh who are not in education, employment or training (NEET). (AQT 333/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I recognise that one of the greatest challenges that we have is getting people who have fallen through the cracks in the system back into training and education. Previously, support for those programmes — I am sure that the Member is aware, as I am, of many groups that work effectively on that in our constituency — came through European funding. That funding ended with Brexit and was not replaced by the Government in London. The Department has been trying to find ways to supplement that funding. Some of those groups received funding through the Levelling Up Fund or Shared Prosperity Fund, but those will also come to a cliff edge in the near future.

We want to ensure that the groups that assist young people to come back into the education system, achieve necessary skills or, indeed, achieve confidence in themselves in going out to work are supported to do that. That is a challenge, because the funding has been lost to us. We will, however, continue to work with the Departments in London to ensure that we get better, more reliable access to some of the funding from the Shared Prosperity Fund and the Levelling Up Fund so that we can give certainty to those groups and to all the young people who are in need of support in education and training.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his response. Does he accept that the recent figures showing that 14,000 16-to-24-year-olds in Northern Ireland are not in employment, training or education are too high?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Yes, they are. Many of us who have been here for many years, as the Member and I have been, pride ourselves on having a world-class education system. It is world-class for those it works for, but, unfortunately, there are far too many people it does not work for. In the situation that we are in, with almost full employment but a high level of economic inactivity, that is clearly an area that, we have to ensure, gets some attention. I would like to see that number reduced and young people, particularly from areas of deprivation, be they rural or urban, having opportunities to upskill, get education, find their way in the workforce and get decently paid jobs and a sense of fulfilment out of the work that they get so that they can live better lives. It is a challenge for all of us to support not just the economy but those young people.

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

T4. Ms Egan asked the Minister, having welcomed him back to the Chamber, what work his Department is doing to support part-time learners in further and higher education. (AQT 334/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

There is a range of support packages in those areas. We have to take our lead from the colleges and universities on the numbers. As with all such anticipatory programmes, it is hard to see what the needs will be over the course of the year. We generally manage to supplement the funding for them. A month or two ago, we were able to announce additional money for student hardship support schemes to try to ensure that people can access them. It is a little like the issue with jobs, training and skills in that we have to make part-time courses and part-time entry into the workforce available, because it is a big challenge for people to go immediately from being completely reliant on a benefits or welfare system back into education or from being in a caring role with complete responsibility for children or others in their home back into full-time training or education.

We all have to understand the accessibility issues. Part-time courses need to be available and accessible to people, and people need to be supported in entering them. Similarly, in the world of work, we need to ensure that employers operate part-time, accessible entry levels. While we are working out what our budget will allow us to do in the year ahead, it is something that we provide support for, and we will provide as much as we can.

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

Thank you, Minister. I am conscious that you mentioned this in your answer, but what support in accessing part-time learning courses can your Department provide specifically for people with disabilities, caring responsibilities or long-term illnesses?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am happy to work with the colleges and universities to ensure that they do all that they can to allow people to come into education. They design some of their facilities around the courses that they operate, but they have to be conscious that the people who are furthest from our education system and employment are people who suffer from illnesses or disabilities. They are often the people who end up with the worst elements or conditions of work, and I intend to introduce a good jobs Bill in this mandate to try to address some of those issues. I absolutely accept that, in the first instance, people require access to training. I will continue to work with the colleges and universities to ensure that they understand that they need to make learning as accessible as possible.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

T5. Miss Brogan asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on the closure of the renewable heat incentive (RHI) scheme, as agreed as part of the New Decade, New Approach agreement. (AQT 335/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have been attempting to secure Executive agreement on the future of the RHI scheme since 4 April. However, to date, it has not been allowed on to the Executive agenda. That is delaying participants' receipt of an uplift in their tariff. It also puts at risk the orderly closure of the scheme, as Ofgem has provided a final termination notice. Ofgem will continue to administer delivery of the scheme only until its absolute backstop of 30 April 2026. I hope that the Executive are allowed to discuss and decide on those issues so that participants can receive appropriate payments and we can close the scheme in an orderly manner, in line with the agreed Executive priority.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. In closing the scheme, will you ensure that participants are fairly compensated?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That is the plan. From the court rulings, there was a sense that the court wanted to ensure that people were treated fairly. Many people entered the scheme on the basis of a genuine attempt to avail themselves of a support that was there for them. We have to ensure that people are treated fairly, but we first have to get to a stage at which the Executive agree on what we are going to do about this. This is not a problem that I created; it is a problem that I inherited. I am trying to bring, as was agreed, some degree of closure to it. It is frustrating for me that we cannot even have a discussion of it in the Executive. I urge those who have been holding us up to allow the Executive to deal with the problem so that we can move on in line with the views of the court.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

T6. Dr Aiken asked the Minister for the Economy, after welcoming him back to his rightful place and declaring an interest as the incoming chair of the all-party group on aerospace, defence and space, which Members will agree is a good title, to state, given the challenges that he is aware that the growing aerospace sector in Northern Ireland faces, not least in the skills agenda, what priority he expects Invest NI to give to the aerospace, defence and space sectors, bearing in mind their likely growth in the next couple of years. (AQT 336/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

It is incumbent on Invest and the Department to identify areas of priority, particularly clusters. The Member is quite right: there is a growing cluster with some big players, but a lot of small and medium enterprises are involved in advancing the sector. Aerospace touches on the areas of good jobs and productivity, in that there is a lot of innovation and growth in the sector, and it is in line with the priorities that I have set in the Department. Also, with quite a lot of the firms scattered across the North, it offers regional balance. We all operate within a limited budgetary framework, including Invest NI, but we have tried to identify sectors with opportunities for growth. I concur with the Member's view that there are clear opportunities for growth in the sector.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will the Minister, therefore, when he looks at his diary, commit to coming to the Farnborough International Airshow, where Northern Ireland will highlight its wares at a series of events? It would be excellent if the Minister were able to find himself there.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am invited to a lot of events, as the Member will be aware. It is a question of juggling the diary to make sure that I can go to as many as I possibly can while retaining a focus on the work that I need to do in the Department. I am always content to consider any invitations that come to me to make sure that I do my best to support all our businesses across the North.

Áine Murphy (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T7. Ms Á Murphy asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on the first meeting of the social enterprise task force. (AQT 337/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The first meeting of the social enterprise co-design group was on 31 May. I was able to attend the meeting briefly, which I was pleased to do. The group is highly motivated to see strategic support for the sector and used the first meeting as an opportunity to share its experience and wealth of knowledge. There was an understanding that the focus should be on trading, scaling and supply chain collaboration. The objectives will work towards making social enterprises more sustainable without relying on funding and allowing the sector to meet the expectations of social value.

It was noted that work is already being done to support the sector but that it is fragmented, making it difficult for social enterprises to access. The next step will be to identify potential barriers and what current supports are available. That exercise will show gaps in areas where we can implement short-term actions and ensure that there is no duplication. Officials agreed to bring a draft paper to the next meeting, which is on 27 June.

Áine Murphy (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Minister, will you provide information on the group set up by the Department to develop the credit union movement?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A meeting of that group took place a few weeks ago when my colleague Deirdre Hargey was at the helm of the Department for the Economy. It was important to come together to see the opportunities that the credit union has to support our economic plans to support regional balance, create good jobs, increase productivity and tackle issues around net zero. The Irish League of Credit Unions has a manifesto, and, in many ways, that sets the context for the working group, but the Department's work does not need to be limited to that. My colleague requested that officials provide regular updates from the working group that has been established, and I will follow through on that.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Robin Swann is not in his place. I call John Blair.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

T9. Mr Blair asked the Minister, after welcoming him back and wishing him well, for an update on the work of the green energy skills industry reference group. (AQT 339/22-27)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As we have said many times here, the issue of skills is huge. The big attraction, particularly for foreign investors, is our people and their skills. The biggest challenge that we currently have is how to do that. There is a range of engagement across a lot of sectors by, for example, the Skills Council and the reference group, and there is a report from Matrix on the current and future skills that are required. We continue to engage across the Department and with the various institutions that work to provide support, including businesses. The challenge is the lack of funding to support skills programmes, but we intend to work as best we can with all those advocates to provide the necessary level for our people.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Will the September 2024 deadline for the green skills action plan be brought forward, given the urgent nature of the plan and the issue?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Minister, a very quick response.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We have had several reports from different groups, and we have had a lot of engagement on the matter. Our big challenge is trying to find the resource from the Department to match the ambition that exists, but there have been examples of good practice. For instance, the manufacturing sector in the mid-Ulster cluster engages with the colleges and schools to ensure that their focus is there. We need to ensure that everybody in the area of skills — schools, colleges, the Department of Education, the private sector and all those who have an interest, such as the groups that get funded through the various programmes for assisting young people — is complementing each other rather than focusing on the same area, tripping over each other and stepping on each other's toes. We want to make sure that the limited amount of money that we have goes as far as it possibly can to try to support that area of work.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

That ends questions to the Minister for the Economy. Please take your ease for one moment.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Education

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Questions 10, 12 and 15 have been withdrawn.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

1. Ms McLaughlin asked the Minister of Education to outline his plans to meet the growing demand for integrated education places. (AQO 510/22-27)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Education in Northern Ireland is based on the key and guiding principle, established in our law, that children are educated, as far as possible, in accordance with the wishes of their parents. Diversity and choice are a strength, not a weakness, of our education system. Every child, every school and every sector is important and valued in our education system. Integrated education, which provides opportunities for children and young people from different community backgrounds to learn together, has an important role to play in that process. The number of pupils accessing integrated education continues to grow. Over 27,000 pupils in Northern Ireland are enrolled in 71 integrated schools. Over 6,000 additional places have been created in the past 10 years.

To measure, assess and aim to meet demand for integrated education, my Department will include societal-level questions on demand and the factors that parents consider when making school-admission decisions in the annual Northern Ireland life and times survey; assess and monitor parental demand for integrated education, as expressed through school admission preferences via the Education Authority's (EA) school admissions portal; use the EA's school admissions portal to obtain permission from parents to be surveyed regarding their school admission preferences; and, annually, carry out a Northern Ireland-wide survey of such parents to assess and monitor demand for integrated education. The Department will also carry out ad hoc local surveys of parents to further assess and monitor demand, as required; consider the outcomes of parental ballots for transformation carried out by Electoral Reform Services; and consider any other relevant survey data available.

Where demand is identified through that structured and systematic analysis, I will ensure that the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE) and the EA, as the arm’s-length bodies that are charged with promoting integrated education and providing sufficient places to meet parental preference respectively, work with their partners across the education sector to meet that demand.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. Your Department's implementation strategy for integrated education does not set any targets for the growth of integrated education or tell us how much money you are going to spend. However, your actions have told us that you are not serious about integrated education, because you have taken away £150 million of capital spend on integrated education. Will you explain how we can reach realistic targets if we are not setting them in the strategy?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have been successful in identifying £150 million for the Strule campus in Omagh. The Member may wish to take the issue up with Mr McCrossan, who has advocated very well for his constituency to ensure that six new schools are developed in that area as part of a shared educational programme. I was also successful in placing into my conventional capital programme the integrated schools that were part of the Fresh Start programme. Last week, I announced that Bangor Central Integrated Primary School and Millennium Integrated Primary School were moving forward and getting funding. I am not sure where the Member gets her information from, but those are the facts. I am treating all sectors equitably. No one sector will get preferential treatment over another: I will treat them all fairly.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

Will the Minister explain the level of capital spend on integrated schools over the past five years and how it compares with the percentage of children who attend integrated schools?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There has been significant spend over the past five years, amounting to £92·7 million. That represents approximately 22% of all major works expenditure across the schools' estate in that period, and I am sure that the Member will agree that, with only 8% of pupils attending an integrated school, that highlights the significant additional investment that integrated schools have received compared with other school sectors.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

Clause 9 of the Integrated Education Act 2022 states that the integrated education strategy action plan must include "targets" and "measurable benchmarks". Can we get a justification for why the Department has moved away from that and towards an outcomes-based approach instead?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am happy to provide precise detail to that question, but what I say to Members is this: I have visited schools from various sectors, and, although some may not have "integrated" officially in their title, there are controlled schools that are more integrated than some that are officially designated as being integrated.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have said this before, but the inference drawn that somehow other school sectors do not provide an integrated form of education is not right and is disrespectful to those schools.

I was at a school in Upper Bann with my colleague Diane Dodds. There are over 21 newcomers in that school environment. I was at another school where there are 18 different nationalities, all within the controlled sector. Those are integrated and diverse schools, but they do not have the word "integrated" in their official title.

Members, particularly in the Alliance Party, need to get off the particular issue of wanting preferential treatment for one sector. If you want to be a community for all, try including everybody.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

2. Mr Brett asked the Minister of Education for an update on the major capital works scheme at Seaview Primary School, North Belfast. (AQO 511/22-27)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Seaview Primary School project is in the early stages of development, with an integrated consultant team (ICT) having been appointed for the project in November 2023. The ICT is undertaking a technical feasibility study to explore options and costs for providing suitable accommodation for the school, and it is anticipated that a report will be submitted to the Department for consideration in the coming months. Once the technical feasibility study report has been examined and approved by the Department, a business case will be completed that will identify the preferred option to be taken forward.

Phillip Brett (DUP, Belfast North)

Delivering the new school at Seaview will be vital for the local community. Just as important as our school buildings, however, are those who work in them. I particularly think of our non-teaching support staff. I know that the Minister shares my commitment to ensuring that they receive the pay and grading review that they need. Will he provide an update on his work to secure those vital funds for the sector?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I can update the House on the progress that has been made. Last week, I engaged with the unions directly. I spent a number of hours with the team and stood up officials from my Department, and we made progress over the weekend. I engaged directly with the Finance Minister, and we identified a way forward that, I believe, can lead to a successful resolution.

The unions decided not to proceed with their industrial action today. It was important to have schools open, particularly special schools, where children and young people with complex needs require a regular form of access to the school environment. Strike action is particularly disruptive to the most vulnerable. We also had students sitting GCSE maths today, and there was concern that we would not be able to have that exam proceed for everybody. Everyone in the House will agree that for those young people who have worked so hard not to have the opportunity to sit that exam would have been unacceptable. I am therefore pleased that we did not have strike action today.

I can update the House further that we engaged this morning with the unions. It was a very positive meeting, and the Education Authority is contacting schools to advise them that strike action should not be taking place tomorrow, but the unions are still going through their official processes. We are, however, now operating on the assumption that schools will be able to open as normal tomorrow.

We will continue to work on the finer details. Support staff in our classrooms, in our catering teams and who drive our buses are incredibly important. I deeply value the work that they do. It is vital that the pay and grading dispute is resolved and that we engage with Treasury, but also look to our own resources in the Assembly, to find a way forward. I will continue to work constructively with the unions until we get to a permanent solution.

Kate Nicholl (Alliance, Belfast South)

Minister, my son was delighted that the boss of all schools visited his nursery last week. When does the Minister hope that building work will begin at Millennium Integrated Primary School, which was part of the capital builds announcement for 2024-25?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The capital builds announcement last week was positive. It demonstrates that the Executive can work together, even with the difficult financial constraints within which we operate. Eight new school builds — seven primary and one post-primary — were announced, of which Millennium Integrated Primary School was one. That allows us to move to securing a tendering process, which will lead to contract. Millennium Integrated Primary School is at a very advanced stage. There is no further obstacle in our moving forward to construction. I cannot give the Member the precise date on which a digger will arrive on site, but we are taking that forward.

I know that that announcement was particularly welcomed by those schools. Millennium Integrated Primary School was one that was unfairly caught in the Treasury process around Fresh Start. I am pleased that we were able to step in and take that forward.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

3. Mr Chambers asked the Minister of Education whether his Department collects data from schools in relation to bullying. (AQO 512/22-27)

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

6. Ms Egan asked the Minister of Education to outline his plans to commission research into bullying in schools. (AQO 515/22-27)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Mr Speaker, with your permission, I will answer questions 3 and 6 together.

The Addressing Bullying in Schools Act 2016 came into operation on 1 September 2021. The Act has three core parts: it provides a common definition of "bullying"; establishes a new duty for schools to record all incidents of bullying, including their motivation and outcome; and requires boards of governors to take responsibility for the development, implementation, monitoring and periodic review of their schools' anti-bullying policies. Concerns were raised during the public consultation on the legislative proposals that led to the Act that any such data that was held by the Department of Education or the Education Authority would be subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and therefore could potentially allow external organisations to create bullying league tables. The then Education Minister subsequently stated that there were no plans to collect or publish any information in relation to bullying incidents. The Department has therefore not directly collated data from schools in relation to bullying incidents.

Following initial information and training offers, the Department established the addressing bullying in schools implementation team (ABSIT) in September 2022. The data is held by ABSIT within EA in its response to referrals. Between September 2022 and March 2024, ABSIT responded to 577 referrals relating to bullying-type behaviour. The team has provided specific support to schools with regard to 185 significant bullying-type cases and delivered training to 147 school leadership teams and bespoke training to 110 school governors. Since its launch in January 2024, level 1 foundation training on the Act has been completed by 3,848 educationalists.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Minister, thank you for that answer. Does the Minister anticipate the data being used to develop a universal approach across all schools to tackling bullying, or does he believe that a tailored solution in individual schools is the best way forward?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We need to make sure that, where there is best practice, we disseminate it. That is something that, of course, we will want to do and facilitate. I have outlined how we have been making efforts to address those issues. Often, schools are best placed, with the right kind of support, which needs to be consistent across Northern Ireland, to resolve those issues. However, where we can identify best practice, it is important that we disseminate that information.

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

Minister, research from Cara-Friend shows that 68% of pupils in secondary school who are LGBTQ+ are bullied due to their sexual orientation or gender identity. What plans do you and your Department have to tackle homophobic and transphobic bullying in schools?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

All forms of bullying are wrong. Bullying in respect of one's sexual orientation is wrong. It is important that schools address that issue alongside other forms of bullying that take place. Of course, my Department will continue, with the Education Authority, to support schools when it comes to addressing bullying behaviour, which is unacceptable in our school system.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his commitment to tackling bullying. Is there best practice in other jurisdictions that we can learn from, particularly on the ever-increasing rise of cyberbullying, which impacts on children and young people so much more, given that it can take place beyond school opening hours?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Department will collect data from other jurisdictions and further research will be carried out on the issue. Where we identify alternative methods that we are not already using to address the issues, we will learn from them. Data on bullying experiences among children and young people has been gathered by Governments in England, Wales and Scotland through a range of health, well-being and crime surveys. However, our understanding is that data on bullying-type behaviour is an issue just to disseminate.

The answer is yes. We will carry out further research to identify other international approaches to managing the problem.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Minister, in relation to your answer to the previous question, further research will not cut it in addressing bullying in schools, specifically on social media platforms. We know that children are dying because of bullying behaviours on those platforms. What communications have you and your Department had with those companies to outline their responsibilities, given that their platforms are havens for bullies and bullying behaviours, which are having a devastating impact on the children and young people who are on the receiving end?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It is about actions and further research to make sure that, where the actions that we are taking can be improved, they are improved. It is not an either/or. We are doing far more than just doing research on the issue. I outlined the measures and the impacts that we have already had in trying to support schools.

The Member raises an important issue about online social media abuse. Children, in particular, given their sensitive age, are much more vulnerable to that than adults, and it can be devastating for adults as well. It is vital that we support schools as they manage the issues around online communication and social media posts. All of that can be difficult to do. What I can do to support schools I will do. Where we can have research to provide better-informed practices, we will do that to help inform how we address those issues.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

4. Mr Blair asked the Minister of Education whether he plans to increase the school uniform grant for 2024-25. (AQO 513/22-27)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The school uniform grant is available to offer financial support to low-income families as a contribution towards the costs of school uniforms. The Education Authority was able to uplift its school uniform grant rate by 20% in 2022-23 following an additional allocation of funding by the previous Minister of Education. Severe budgetary pressures mean that it has not been possible to allocate additional funding to the Education Authority to implement a further rise in the rate of the uniform grant for the 2024-25 academic year.

I recognise that higher rates of uniform grant are available in other parts of the United Kingdom. I would obviously like to be able to allocate additional funding to the Education Authority that would enable a rise in the uniform grant. However, that can only be done when the funding is available to do so. While recognising that the rate of the uniform grant is one way to reduce the impact of uniform costs on low-income families, I believe that schools seeking to minimise the costs of their uniform can potentially be of even greater benefit. Schools should therefore endeavour to align their school uniform requirements with the Department's guidance circular that encourages them to keep school uniform costs to a minimum.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. He almost referred to the fact that it is disappointing news.

Given that addressing the extortionate costs of school uniforms was identified as a key priority when the Minister took up office and that, I understand, officials had previously worked on fairly detailed proposals, why has it taken so long to bring forward a consultation on the issue?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member rightly raises my desire to address the issue. On the matter of placing the current guidance on a statutory footing, I have engaged with schools through letters to principals reminding them of the circular and appealing to them to follow it. The overwhelming majority of schools follow that guidance, but we need all schools to follow it. A public consultation will be launched within weeks, before the end of this period of the Assembly's timetable — before it breaks for the recess. That will seek the public's views on placing it on a statutory footing. As part of that, we will also seek views on a cost cap.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, three months ago, the Assembly debated a motion that called for many of the actions that you are now talking about. Can you be specific? You said that the consultation will be launched, hopefully, before recess. Can you give a timeline for when you want the guidance to be put into statute? Will it be by the end of this year or the end of the mandate? When, precisely?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Obviously, I will not be able to have the guidance placed on a statutory footing for this September. Many schools have already engaged with retailers and the supply chain. We will not, therefore, be able to do that. However, I was able to remind schools to follow the guidance, and the overwhelming majority are doing that. I want to have it on a statutory footing for the commencement of the following academic year, so that there is a statutory basis for it. Of course, we need to work out how to monitor that and what role, potentially, the inspectorate could have in ensuring that the legislation passed by the House is given effect. It is one thing to place something on a statutory footing; it is another thing to monitor and, ultimately, enforce that. How you do that and what the sanction would be are things that need to be worked out as part of the consultation process and then the legislative process, when the Bill is introduced to the Assembly.

David Brooks (DUP, Belfast East)

The Minister mentioned the rates elsewhere in the UK and said that, in some places, the rates are higher. Can he give any further details on how the rate here compares with other parts of the UK and the Republic of Ireland?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

On comparators, in England, many local authorities do not offer uniform grants, and, for those that do, there can be considerable variation in the level of support. It can vary from £30 to £160. In Scotland, there is a minimum level uniform grant of £120 per child at primary school and £150 per child at post-primary level. Wales has a school essentials grant that is aimed towards supporting parents with uniform costs but also costs for sports kits and IT equipment. That is £125 per pupil or £200 for pupils in post-primary.

A range of support measures exists. There is no uniform approach — pardon the pun — in how the costs are calculated and what the payments go towards. We have our own scheme. It was a DUP Education Minister who increased it by 20%. It had stood still for nearly a decade with no increase, until my predecessor, Michelle McIlveen, addressed the issue. I have indicated my desire to do more, but it requires the Department of Education to have the resources available to it for us to do more.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

5. Mrs Dodds asked the Minister of Education whether he will include the school enhancement programme within his capital budget programme. (AQO 514/22-27)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Executive Budget provides the Department with a capital budget of £254 million for 2024-25, which is an increase of over £80 million on last year’s opening position. That additional funding has allowed me to release seven school enhancement programmes in addition to the major new capital bids that were announced. The school enhancement programmes include Carniny Primary School, Kilronan School, Lurgan Model Integrated Primary School, St John’s Primary School in Kingsisland, St Kevin’s College, St Malachy’s College and St Mary’s Primary School in Barr.

Budget is available to progress all other school enhancement projects through design and planning to the pre-tender stage. A decision to release those to tender and construction will then be taken, depending on budget availability at the time. Whilst the additional funding is extremely positive and welcome, the Department continues to face significant capital pressures, particularly for special educational needs (SEN) placements. Therefore, difficult decisions will continue to be required on prioritisation.

My vision is that every child is educated in a high-quality learning environment, and the school enhancement programme is key to delivering on that by providing significant improvements to a school's teaching and learning facilities. It is a high-impact and relatively low-cost programme that can make a lasting improvement to a school. I will continue to make the case for increased investment in the education estate to ensure that every child can enjoy the benefits of improved teaching and learning facilities.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister. You referenced that we recently visited some schools in Upper Bann, one of which was Carrick Primary School. You rightly talked about 21 languages being spoken in a really diverse, inclusive school. However, that school has been waiting for five years for a business case for a school enhancement programme, and that is clearly an unacceptably long wait. I know that you took —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Question, please.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

— cognisance of that. Can the Minister tell us what he can do, with the Education Authority, to shorten that time frame in order to allow schools to proceed to the point where they are eligible for funding?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member rightly makes the point about the time that it takes for projects to go through the various stages until they are at the point of being able to move into that tender/construction phase. It is a frustration that I share and one that the principal of Carrick Primary School — the Member had me at that school — and other principals have articulated to me. Obviously, we need to look at the processes and at how we can make going through the various stages more efficient and expediting that. Officials in my Department are looking at that work with the Education Authority, and it is ultimately for the Education Authority to plan out the school estate, particularly for controlled schools, and to make sure that the support is there. I need to support the Education Authority in discharging its responsibilities effectively for our schools.