Northern Ireland Assembly, 16 April 2024

313 contributions from 53 members. The official report.

Members' Statements

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Any Member who wishes to make a statement should rise in their place. You will have up to three minutes to make a statement. No interventions or points of order will be permitted until the item of business is finished.

Alex Easton (Independent, North Down)

I want to raise the shocking closure of the Bangor PSNI public enquiry office. It is one of 17 such offices to close right across Northern Ireland. What is particularly worrying about that is that North Down has a population of over 162,000 people and will have only one police station, which is in Newtownards, that is open to the public. That means that Bangor residents will have to make a 10-mile trip to an actual station when they need to give in documents or report a crime.

In North Down, we have a huge problem. We have seen the closure of Donaghadee police station. Holywood police station is no longer open to the public, and now we will be left with just the station in Newtownards. It is a deeply worrying situation. All that is happening to save £400,000. In the scheme of things, £400,000 is not a huge amount of money to keep all those enquiry offices open, so I implore the Justice Minister to contact the Finance Minister and to raise the issue at the Executive, because it would be a disaster for policing right across Northern Ireland if we could not keep those enquiry offices open.

I am also deeply worried about recruitment to the PSNI. There are hundreds of vacant PSNI officer posts. If we do not do something, we will have a difficult time in the future with proper policing, because we will not have enough police officers or stations.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Last week, a report by Fáilte Ireland concluded that the Wild Atlantic Way has had an economic impact worth €3 billion a year in tourism revenue to communities along the west coast of Ireland, led to the creation of an additional 35,000 jobs and supports 80,000 jobs in total. That is some positive impact for those communities.

The marketing of the Wild Atlantic Way stretches 2,500 km from Kinsale in County Cork up to Donegal, where it stops on the Donegal/Derry border. The Atlantic Ocean does not stop at Donegal, so I have to ask this: why should the Wild Atlantic Way? All of the promotional material that is used to attract visitors in international markets is designed and delivered by Tourism Ireland. The island is marketed as a whole to an international audience, so it makes perfect sense that major regional tourism experiences such as the Wild Atlantic Way should also reflect that by being cross-border in nature. There is a clear rationale for doing so, and it would undoubtedly help the North to develop further the economic potential of its tourism.

Why should we in the North miss such an opportunity as extending the Wild Atlantic Way from Donegal through Derry and the north coast and along the glens of Antrim to Belfast? The case for expanding the Wild Atlantic Way to incorporate the Causeway Coast and glens coastal route is compelling. With the likes of Dunluce Castle, the Carrick-a-Rede rope bridge and the Giant's Causeway, why should the local communities of Ballintoy, Ballycastle and Bushmills in my constituency not benefit from the boost that being marketed as part of the Wild Atlantic Way would bring, increasing visitor numbers and spend in the local economy and benefiting hospitality and tourism businesses, as well as the cafés, restaurants, pubs and tourist attractions in the likes of Cushendall, Cushendun and Glenariff?

The Fáilte Ireland report is a timely reminder of the successful impact that tourism can have on job creation for the local and wider economy, creating opportunities for people and communities to prosper and thrive. Extending the Wild Atlantic Way into the North is one such opportunity.

Gary Middleton (DUP, Foyle)

In just two days' time, 18 April will mark five years since the senseless, brutal and tragic murder of Lyra McKee in the Creggan area of Londonderry. That evening was one of utter turmoil. Many of us watched on with horror at the violence in the Creggan as rioting and scenes of destruction unfolded. Lyra, innocently watching those horrific scenes of utter recklessness alongside her neighbours and friends — she was described by her sister, Nichola, as one of the kindest, most beautiful souls ever to grace the world — was shot dead by a terrorist, so close to her family, her friends and her place of love and safety.

Those responsible for the violence on the evening on which Lyra was murdered and on many violent nights since do not speak for the wider community and the city that I am proud to represent. Only a few days after Lyra's murder, many people gathered at the Guildhall to join civic, religious and political leaders in condemnation. The then First Minister, Dame Arlene Foster, alongside Gregory Campbell MP and me, joined many in the Creggan standing in solidarity with people from all walks of life and backgrounds demanding peace and justice.

Sadly, although the police know the identity of the murderer, he continues to walk on the streets and remains free, not facing justice and protected by the anonymity that comes with a lack of charges being brought against him. Lyra's family and the community at large are unable to properly grieve or have any sense of justice, as they do not know who this person is. That is simply not good enough.

Members, it is imperative that we do not let Lyra's name be forgotten, five years on, on Thursday 18 April. As an Assembly, we must unite in our stance against terrorist activity, condemning the actions of illegal terrorist groups, masked gunmen and those who continue to choose to wreak havoc and destruction on communities and upset the peace that exists in them. Today, we as an Assembly remember Lyra with the hope that, one day soon, the terrorists involved in her murder will feel the full weight of justice.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

I rose in the Chamber a few weeks ago to congratulate local homegrown talent on their nominations for the BAFTAs and the Irish Film and Television Academy (IFTA) awards. Just last night, actress Laura Donnelly, who, incidentally, studied drama and theatre studies at the very same drama department as I did — that is my tenuous link — was nominated for an Olivier award, having previously won that prestigious award.

I hope that many were glued to the BBC last night, as I was, for the return of the amazing 'Blue Lights'. From Ballymena man Declan Lawn, the writer and producer, to Hannah McClean playing Jen, to the exceptional performance by Cushendun man Seamus O'Hara as Lee, the links to my constituency of North Antrim are strong, as Annie would say. However, as we celebrated World Art Day yesterday, that positivity was not felt right across the board in the arts sector. Notably, the Waterside Theatre announced its closure, with four staff being made redundant. It follows other production and theatre companies that have had to take similar action recently. For too long and too often, the arts sector has had to do too much for so little. Ironically — I am not being dramatic when I say this — we are on the precipice of the decimation of our arts sector. At last month's meeting of the all-party group on arts, we heard that artists with decades of experience are having to leave the sector because they cannot sustain both their families and their careers. Either that or they are moving across the border or across the water, where public expenditure on the arts massively dwarfs our pitiful offerings. Every Member in this Chamber will have heard those statistics.

Every time I reference the arts and arts funding on social media, I am met with, "But what about health? But what about social housing waiting lists? What about issues with our education system? Typical Alliance, focusing on the cushy arts". Let me be clear: this should not be an either/or endgame. The arts are not a hobby or a nice wee add-on to pass the time or even an interest solely of the middle classes any more. They are a key driver of economic success in Northern Ireland, contributing millions to our economy every year and employing over 3,500 people, yet the percentage of public funding that they receive is absolutely pitiful. The arts can be life-changing and, as I have seen with my own eyes, life-saving.

I am making a plea today to the Minister for Communities and the wider Executive to please give the arts a lifeline. Having had more than a decade of real-terms reductions in funding, it will be a death by a thousand cuts next time. A cut, no matter how small, will represent a huge swathe of shelved productions, artists moving elsewhere and a society bereft of those to tell their story.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

It will come as no surprise to the House that I rise again today to raise the important issue of the A5, particularly after another life was lost on the road last week. Oonagh Burns, aged 35, died on 7 April when travelling from Derry towards Strabane. She went off the road and sadly lost her life. Her death marks 50 people who have died on this treacherous road since 2007. Fifty deaths. Fifty families left with that pain and sense of tremendous loss. This month also marks the one-year anniversary of the terrible deaths of the three members of the McKane family, who died at the end of April last year on the Aughnacloy section of the A5. This road leaves devastation in its wake at every single stretch. There is no family in Tyrone and beyond that has not been touched to some degree by this road.

There are delays and delays and delays, and those delays are costing lives. We cannot afford any further delays. I do not stand here to make a political point; I stand here in desperation because, with every passing day, further lives are put at risk on the A5. Just this week, for the past three consecutive days, at three different sections of that road, there have been serious accidents. Three days in a row. People are desperate to see this road delivered, and the report from the public inquiry, which was very well attended, has been sitting with the Department for Infrastructure since November and with the Minister, John O'Dowd, since February. We need a decision, we need progress to be made and we need to ensure that this road is made safe.

I have listened to people online every time that I talk about this, and people are sick hearing me talk about it, but I am not going to give in until I see work begin on this road. It could be my family or anyone else's that is affected directly next. When I attended the wake of Oonagh Burns last week, her father said to me, "You never expect this to happen to your own family member, your own daughter".

I think of the Burns family today and of the community in Strabane, as we grieve another loss on that road. My plea to the House is this: whatever can be done must be done. We do not know how many more lives will be lost if we continue to see delays to work on that road.

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I raise a critical issue that significantly impacts on families in Derry, west Tyrone and other areas: access to social and affordable homes. Just last week, the Chartered Surveyors' report indicated a continued rise in house buyer enquiries and in house prices across the North, yet, as we see from the statistics, at least 46,500 households are on the social housing waiting list, 34,500 of which are deemed to be living in dire need and over 26,000 of which are statutorily homeless. Behind the statistics are tens of thousands of people who are unable to access housing. They live each day with the uncertainty and anxiety of homelessness.

In November 2020, on behalf of Sinn Féin, Carál Ní Chuilín outlined a vision and a plan for housing, with an emphasis on the urgent need for the revitalisation of the Housing Executive to enable our largest social housing landlord to start building again at scale. We consulted on the housing supply strategy, which advocated the building of well over 100,000 homes over the next 15 years, including 33,000 social homes in urban and rural communities across the North. Additionally, the Assembly delivered the Private Tenancies Act 2022, which was the first package of reform for the private rented sector to enhance the safety and security of renters.

We must now continue to work to enhance standards, deliver affordable rents and enhance security of housing, including consideration of tenancies of indefinite duration. We want to see real delivery for people on those issues and a focus on supporting our struggling homeowners and renters alike, alongside the prioritisation of ending long-term homelessness in our society. That should include the delivery of multi-annual budgeting and the expansion of homelessness services, including Housing First and projects such as Complex Lives in the north-west. Housebuilding projects must target areas such as Derry, where housing need is greatest, so that people who have been failed by the provision of housing for decades have the opportunity to live in their community.

I ask the Minister for Communities to publish the housing supply strategy urgently. I also ask for cross-departmental collaboration, with the support of our four-party coalition and the Opposition, on the prioritisation of housing. The British Government need to get serious about the investment in our public services that they must provide. That requires a new level of serious engagement on the assurances around securing the additional funding that is required for the Housing Executive not just to maintain its current stock but, crucially, to remove the historical debt and begin bringing new social and affordable homes to meet the level of need across all our communities.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I take the opportunity to celebrate Northern Ireland and the fabulous, unique tourism product that is its people. One man has shown that spirit of friendliness and hospitality as he weaves his way around on his circumnavigation of Northern Ireland: Timmy Mallett.

Timmy has a real zest for life. Over the past number of weeks, he has showcased Northern Ireland to his social media followers across the world in the most enthusiastic way. Going off the beaten track, he has spent his time acquainting himself with our history and way of life. He spent quite a bit of time in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Can you blame him? It really is one of the most beautiful parts of Northern Ireland. He has found a friend in John from 'The Impartial Reporter'. He has been to Belleek Pottery, and he has met the Archbishop of Armagh, Olga in the Derg Arms and our very own deputy First Minister. He has celebrated people the length and breadth of this place. He even showcased the work of Gerry from Northern Ireland Water, who was collecting samples from Lough Erne.

Northern Ireland is a place to visit. Who, 30 years ago, would have thought so? We have come a long way in opening our doors and showcasing ourselves to the world. We should support and encourage our tourism and hospitality sector in what are challenging circumstances.

Timmy has made me very proud of Northern Ireland over the past few weeks. He has showcased Northern Ireland in a way in which no tourism strategy ever could. I thank him for all the laughs and joy that he has spread on social media about Northern Ireland, even in the glorious rain.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am disappointed that Timmy Mallett did not invite me to meet him, but I will probably get over it.

I bring to Members' attention the closure of two police enquiry offices in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. The first is in Dungannon town, which is an extremely busy enquiry office. I cannot for the life of me understand why the plan is to close it. The second is in Lisnaskea in Fermanagh, which serves a huge rural area of south and east Fermanagh. People from Rosslea, Newtownbutler and Derrylin will have to plan significantly and travel a considerable distance to get to Enniskillen enquiry office, which is not open all of the time.

The decision is a huge drawback for the police and a huge blow to public confidence in policing. It is clearly a financial issue; there are letters that state that it is a financial decision. As well as being a blow to public confidence in the police, it is a blow to police officers, who feel a sense of, almost, disloyalty from their own organisation. They will not be able to provide that public-facing service to people in Fermanagh and South Tyrone.

The decision will leave one enquiry office in the large area of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, in Enniskillen. That is a huge drawback. I note that the police have indicated that the closures will take place. There will be no consultation on it. I am surprised that there will not be even a reasonable discussion with public representatives, the wider public and police officers about why the enquiry offices in those stations have been earmarked for closure.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

One of the headline sales pitches for the tainted Donaldson deal was, "Zero checks, zero paperwork". In that regard, the Windsor Framework (Implementation) Regulations were trumpeted as being the passage to that. Those regulations, which give the Secretary of State power to issue instructions to DAERA, came into effect last Friday. We still await the publication of those directions, which was promised in the legislation.

When one studies the regulations, it seems clear that the promise of zero paperwork is undeliverable. The regulations give power only to instruct DAERA, but DAERA is not the responsible authority. According to DAERA, HMRC is responsible for paperwork and customs declarations. Of course, that fits with the fact that that all arises from our subjection to a foreign EU customs code that operates on the basis that goods coming from GB are coming from a foreign territory into EU territory, namely Northern Ireland, hence the necessity for customs paperwork.

One will watch with interest to see whether the bold promise of zero checks and zero paperwork will be met. One will also look to see how the 5% minimum set forth in EU legislation will, allegedly, be overcome, or was it all just so much spin and hype? That seems to be the fundamental defining hallmark of the tainted Donaldson deal.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I want to highlight the significant increases in car insurance prices, which are crippling workers and families, many of whom are already struggling with the cost-of-living crisis. Over the past year, many people have seen their car insurance quotes increase at unprecedented rates, even if they have not had an accident, received a speeding fine or had a change in circumstances. Some drivers have been unfairly charged on the basis of a postcode lottery, with people in some constituencies being charged significantly more than others on the basis of their home address rather than their driving history.

In January, it was reported that the average car insurance price this year is £383 more expensive than last year, and those costs continue to surge. The average insurance policy for motorists here is now £1,000, which would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. That has a deep impact and knock-on effect on workers and families. I have heard countless examples of first-time drivers passing their test and then being unable to afford to get on to the road.

People struggle to pay those high insurance rates alongside high fuel prices and other costs. Insurers say that the increases are due to inflation and the cost of car parts and replacements. However, during the pandemic, when there was a dramatic drop in travel, we did not see insurers issue the same dramatic drop in insurance prices. The reality is that the insurance industry is making huge profits while workers and families struggle to cope with increasing costs.

Unfortunately, the Executive have no power over financial regulation. The Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulation Authority in Britain are responsible for challenging insurers on unfair hikes in insurance premiums. It is beyond time that those regulators held insurers to account. That needs to happen urgently.

The British Government should explore ways to alleviate the costs, such as reducing the 12% premium insurance tax that is being lumped into people's renewal quotes. Sinn Féin will continue to press the insurance industry on the spiralling prices and stand up for the people who are struggling to afford the costs.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

That brings to a conclusion Members' statements. I ask Members to take their ease before the next item of business while the Principal Deputy Speaker takes the Chair.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker [Ms Ní Chuilín] in the Chair)

Opposition Business

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I beg to move

That this Assembly acknowledges the findings of the recent Northern Ireland Audit Office report on child poverty that nearly half of all children living in relative poverty come from families with three or more children; recognises the pernicious role that the universal credit two-child limit has played in increasing the number of children in poverty; understands that the majority of those negatively impacted by the two-child limit are working families; notes that removing this limit is within the powers of the Northern Ireland Executive; believes that the consequences of childhood poverty far outweigh the cost of removing the cap; and calls on the Minister for Communities to present a plan before this Assembly to remove the two-child limit before the end of 2024.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. As an amendment has been selected and is published on the Marshalled List, the Business Committee has agreed that 15 minutes will be added to the total time for the debate.

Matthew, please open the debate on the motion.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. When we entered opposition in February and in the weeks since, we have consistently said that we want to be a constructive Opposition. Recognising the scale and long-term nature of the challenges facing the Executive, we seek to offer constructive accountability and solutions as well as robust challenge when necessary. We also want to use our platform as an Opposition to give a voice to people who have been failed by our politics. As a party with its roots in social justice campaigning, the SDLP is determined to use our Opposition platform to address the moral shame and blight of poverty.

Before I go on, I thank the Cliff Edge Coalition, its members and, indeed, all the campaign groups that have come to Parliament Buildings today to make their voice heard in support of our Opposition day and our motions.

Poverty levels in this society remain far too high, unconscionably so. That is most acutely the case with child poverty. A Northern Ireland Audit Office report recently found that one in five children in our society lives in poverty. Those statistics mask the reality of empty tummies and anxious children and parents. This is not solely a local phenomenon. Across the UK and further afield, the effects of more than a decade of austerity have combined with a post-pandemic spike in inflation to create a perfect storm of rising costs and suppressed incomes for the most vulnerable. However, while successive Tory Governments and their austerity agenda have squeezed welfare spending, without regard for the human consequences of doing so, it is wrong to imply, as some in the Chamber have done, that little can be done to alleviate or mitigate the pernicious effects of those policies.

Indeed, different parties in the Chamber have, at some points, wanted to give the Tories even more power to inflict harmful policies on the North, either by allowing them the power to legislate for welfare reform directly in Northern Ireland, allowing local hands to be washed clean of responsibility, or by boycotting ministerial office, as both main parties have done, so that the only people to take decisions for this region were those same Tory Ministers.

I note with some regret that although the Opposition is the smallest of the five main parties represented in the Chamber, we still have more MLAs in the Chamber now than the two main parties combined, which have nearly 60 MLAs between them. They may not want to give the Opposition day much credence but it would do them some credit if they gave the issue of poverty a little more respect instead of having such a paltry turnout.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

The Member raises an important point and I thank him for giving way. Maybe it is the case that the main parties' track record of failure on poverty and on resolving some of the problems is an embarrassment for them, and that is why they have not shown up in the Chamber. Does the Member agree?

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

As always, my colleague puts his case forcefully. There is an argument to be made there. However, we have a choice. Although we will make political points, I want to build some consensus on this issue in the Chamber. I also recognise that we are making the Communities Minister sit in the Chamber for an awful lot of today, as we did yesterday. I hope that we can make some progress in the debate. As I said, we have a choice.

Despite the political difficulties involved in getting there, Northern Ireland introduced a package of welfare mitigations that has, most experts acknowledge, mitigated some of the worst of austerity, though sadly not all of it. We have a clear template for how, when we turn up, do our jobs and make serious choices, we can improve the lives of people we serve. Therefore, the first item in our Opposition day package is a call on the Executive to remove the pernicious two-child limit on universal credit. That policy, introduced by the Tories in 2015, is an indefensible and direct punishment of children.

Our former leader John Hume often talked about the accident of birth in relation to identity. Of course, that accident of birth also applies to the family that a child is born into and, indeed, the order of their birth, but the effect of the two-child limit is to remove any additional support from that child if they are the third or subsequent birth, regardless of the objective need of the family. Of course, in Northern Ireland, the impact is disproportionately felt because of our larger family sizes.

It is also important to note that the policy affects working families too. The majority of households affected by the two-child limit are working families. The scale of the real loss to families is huge: a lower-income family in receipt of the child element of universal credit loses £3,200 per year for every third or subsequent child born after April 2017. The numbers of affected children is increasing year-on-year, making the effect of the policy evermore damaging. Of course, as the Resolution Foundation has pointed out, that is precisely the point of the policy.

A wide range of experts who have looked at this issue agree that the removal of the two-child limit from universal credit would be a hugely impactful and direct way of addressing child poverty. The review of welfare mitigations — created by the previous Communities Minister Deirdre Hargey and led by Les Allamby — found that virtually all the local stakeholders and campaigners that it engaged with highlighted the two-child limit as being a particular blight.

Listening to the debate yesterday, and the various arguments that were made for watering down the SDLP's call for specific timelines and a rigorous ring-fenced budget for child poverty, one could have been left with the impression that the making of an anti-poverty strategy was as mysterious as the third secret of Fatima or as impenetrable as the text of 'Finnegans Wake'. It was as if there was nothing we could do. While poverty, including child poverty, is multifaceted and touches on virtually every aspect of public policy, there are clear and deliverable interventions that we have the power to implement, which would make a real difference to people's lives. If we were to undo the effects of the two-child limit via policy, we would make the lives of many children and families better, raise many out of poverty and improve their life chances. That is hardly a bad use of the power that we have. We think that it would be a good day's work.

How much would it cost, and how would or should it be paid for? The Department's welfare mitigations panel consulted two different economic consultancies that costed ending the two-child limit in Northern Ireland at about £40 million a year. That is a significant recurring cost, but it is not insurmountable. Indeed, the Executive have already raised the vast majority of it — they have raised £30 million — via an increase in the regional rate. That funding could be directed towards paying for removing the two-child limit. There are other options that the Executive could look at, such as reforming the long-term generosity of the vacant property relief in the rates system. It is, of course, entirely right that we have a relief for vacant property, but our relief is particularly generous when compared with that across the water or over the border. Those are not definitive decisions, because they are not ours to make, but they are an example of what the Executive could look at to pay for the policy. We also subsidise non-existent long-haul flights from Belfast by paying the Treasury more than £2 million a year in hypothetically forgone air tax, despite there not being any long-haul flights from Northern Ireland.

Taken together, those measures could offer the means to pay for an essential intervention in our welfare system, end the pernicious two-child limit and start lifting children out of poverty. Of course, if Members from Executive parties wish to challenge or disagree with those suggested choices or options, they are more than welcome to tell us which choices they would be willing to make to pay for policies. As yet, we have seen precious little of that detail from the Executive parties amid more than a dozen motions promising action. Indeed, we may be the first party to propose a motion with a detailed explanation of how a measure could be paid for. It is ironic for an Opposition party to do that work.

Of course, the long-term cost of child poverty, be it through adult welfare, healthcare costs or, tragically, in the criminal justice system, far outweighs the cost of the intervention that we are proposing. Let me be clear on this: we regard a proposal for full mitigation of the two-child limit via a separate payment as being entirely consistent with the ask in the motion. Our preference would be for abolition, but we are not theological, so I hope that we can avoid turning the debate into a theological debate about the technicalities of mitigation versus abolition. If mitigation covered the total cost of the two-child limit, we would be up for that. We would prefer abolition, but, ultimately, what matters is the financial outcome for families, not the precise bureaucratic mechanism.

Let me touch briefly on the DUP amendment, which, I am afraid, we cannot support. Like the Alliance amendment yesterday, it seeks to water down the specificity of the motion and the policy commitment that we are asking for. It simply asks that the Minister "consider the merits" of the recommendations of the Allamby mitigations panel. To be honest, I had hoped and assumed that the Minister would do that as a bare minimum without the need for Assembly instruction. I am afraid that the amendment would render our motion wholly inadequate, so we cannot support it.

I do not go in for grandiose quotes, but there is a Franklin Roosevelt quote that always resonates with me, and it is —.

A Member

[Inaudible.]

[Laughter.]

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I do not actually, but this quote resonates with me. Roosevelt said:

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

There is no more important thing to do in politics or in public life than improve the life chances of those who are in need. With the motion, which proposes something that is not only transformative but affordable and practical, we all have that opportunity. Let us take that opportunity. I commend to the Assembly the motion to remove the two-child limit.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I call Brian Kingston to move the amendment.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

I beg to move

Leave out all after "Executive" and insert: "but would place serious and recurring constraints on public spending; further notes the recommendations of the independent advisory panel report 'Welfare Mitigations Review', including the proposal to offset the two-child limit by introducing a better start larger families payment; and calls on the Minister for Communities to consider the merits of this proposal when meeting his statutory obligation to produce a report on the current, and future, operation of welfare mitigation schemes by the end of this financial year."

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Brian. You will have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes. Brian, please lead the debate on the amendment.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

I start by thanking the Opposition party for the motion, the majority of which we support. However, as Mr O'Toole referenced, we wish to amend part of it, and I will explain the reason for that during my speech.

For context, the UK Government introduced the two-child policy in 2017, and, under the principle of parity, the same measures automatically applied in Northern Ireland. If the Assembly were to unilaterally abolish the two-child limit, it would mean funding those extra benefit payments out of the block grant that we receive, which would place considerable and recurring constraints on Executive spending for vital public services. The Opposition party is actively calling for our Executive to ring-fence funding in a host of other areas. How does it reasonably expect Ministers to fund the removal of the two-child limit on top of the other demands? Will it deprive our schools of that money? Will it put the pay rises for health workers on hold? Will it kick an affordable childcare policy into the long grass?

The Minister for Communities and the Executive have a duty to be fiscally responsible, given the current budgetary pressures and being mindful of the need to provide vital support to vulnerable and low-income households in every corner of our Province. The independent advisory panel report has provided a range of recommendations, including offsetting the two-child limit with a separate better start payment for larger families. It would be a dereliction of duty for the Minister and his officials not to consider the merits of those proposals in detail. That is the basis of our amendment.

We also point out that the Department for Communities is under a statutory obligation to produce a review of current welfare mitigations by the end of the financial year.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

Yes, I will, briefly.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

Does the Member agree that the rates of poverty and child poverty, particularly in his constituency, indicate that this is a crisis and that we cannot wait until the end of the financial year for that report? Does the Member agree that this needs to be brought forward with the utmost urgency, not just at the end of the financial year?

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

The aim is not to bring it forward at the end of the financial year, but it must be brought forward by then. Certainly, we all agree that, as the leader of the Opposition said, improving people's quality of life is what motivates all of us in politics, and it is what we all wish to do every day.

The Minister has already informed Members that any report produced will also present future proposals. It is important that we respect that process, provide space for intensive engagement with experts, stakeholders and claimants and resist the temptation to pre-empt the outcome. It is also worth noting that negotiations around a new fiscal framework are ongoing with the Treasury, and it would be counterproductive not to wait and assess the outcome of that process before making future decisions affecting those in receipt of universal credit and other benefits. Longer-term certainty on Budgets will be required to allow a strategic approach to all the Executive's priorities.

This is, essentially, a debate about where best to place our financial resources at a time when our front-line public services are experiencing massive shortfalls. We could not support redirecting tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of pounds from other much-needed front-line services in order to cover additional welfare benefits that are not funded by the Treasury. We make no apologies for seeking fairness for all families and for guarding funding for our vital public services.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the proposer of the motion for bringing it forward for debate. Clearly, addressing poverty and inequality is one of this institution's principal tasks in this mandate.

The two-child limit was a policy decision taken and implemented by the Tory Government in 2017: first, in child tax credits; and, secondly, following the introduction of universal credit in the North, it was applied to that as well.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Member give way?

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go ahead.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

You say that you are so careful and compassionate about child poverty, but to what extent do you accept responsibility, given that your party, the DUP and the Alliance Party handed over welfare powers to the cruel and tyrannical Tories?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Colm, you have an extra minute.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Thank you. I thank the Member for his intervention.

We believe that this policy discriminates against women and children, is a key driver of child poverty and disproportionately impacts on people here because of our larger family size. The inclusion of what has become known as the "rape clause" highlights just how wrong and unjust this policy is at every level. No child should be denied the financial support required to meet their essential needs.

We have called repeatedly for the British Government to scrap the policy, and we reiterate that call today.

The proposer of the motion, in stating that removing this element of universal credit is within the powers of the Executive, knows and understands that what they are really asking for are mitigation measures. Members will be aware that social security, including universal credit, is devolved within the principle of parity, that any deviation from that parity requires agreement from the British Treasury and that the Executive must meet any associated costs from the block grant.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I appreciate the Committee Chair's giving way. I agree with everything that he has said. That is why, in my speech, I acknowledged every point that he has just made and offered a clear costing and a potential means for it to be paid.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am sure that the Member has indicated that he has come up with several ideas and that he will engage with the Executive on those ideas.

To be absolutely clear, Sinn Féin opposes the two-child limit and supports the call across the sector to offset it. We have consistently raised the issue and did so again in our submission to the welfare mitigations review led by Les Allamby. I commend Les and his panel for their work. It is no easy task to be asked to recommend what gaps in the social security safety net to narrow while acknowledging and understanding the limitations of the block grant, because the reality is that the Tory Government have eroded the social security system to such an extent that it has become difficult to even refer to it as a "safety net" any more. Furthermore, the impact of the historic underfunding of this institution and the current budgetary pressures make picking up the pieces of the human impact of Tory austerity policies increasingly challenging.

Finally, in considering the motion and the amendment, it is important to be realistic about the time frame and the budget required to ensure any form of mitigation introduced is sustainable in the long term. As work continues towards publishing an anti-poverty strategy, which we discussed yesterday, I implore the Minister for Communities to ensure that offsetting the two-child limit is included in that overarching strategy.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

This debate has much synergy with the debate yesterday about child poverty, and I thank the Opposition for bringing it forward. The recent findings of the Northern Ireland Audit Office report on child poverty and the Northern Ireland poverty and income inequality report have shone a light on a sobering reality. The rising number of children and families in Northern Ireland living in poverty is simply unacceptable, and we have agreed that.

The Audit Office report reveals that nearly half of children living in relative poverty come from families with three or more children. Those in larger families were already more vulnerable to deprivation even before this policy. We do not limit access to healthcare, education or public services by order of birth, so there is no justification for limiting access to social security, with £3,455 lost for each child born subsequent to the second, as recent figures have shown. The two-child benefit cap is a policy born out of callous disregard for the well-being of the most vulnerable people in society. It is penalising families for the number of children they have, punishing innocent children for circumstances far beyond their control and forcing women to disclose pregnancy as a result of rape. According to the Northern Ireland Anti-Poverty Network, this represents 45,000 children in Northern Ireland. That is 45,000 children whom the Tory Government deem irrelevant when it comes to meeting their essential needs of food on the plate and a roof over their heads. Let us be clear: it is a policy that flies in the face of compassion, empathy and basic human decency, although those are not words that I would associate with the current Tory Government anyway, to be honest.

It is also clear that the policy exacerbates gender disparities, with women disproportionately affected due to their higher share of childcare responsibilities. Additionally, we cannot overlook the fact that, until recently, reproductive choice in Northern Ireland was greatly impacted, leaving women in extremely difficult circumstances when faced with an unplanned third or subsequent pregnancy. Comprehensive research by the Centre for Analysis of Social Exclusion (CASE) has shown that there is no evidence that it has increased employment, which was the initial justification. It found that those who had larger families tended to have to care for their own children, citing barriers to childcare and logistics as some of the reasons why they are not economically active. Incidentally, this also links to the necessity for a fully resourced childcare strategy for Northern Ireland.

From an international perspective, none of the other developed countries that are members of the OECD limit the number of children eligible for means-tested family benefits; in fact, they increase with family size. We can be absolutely clear that this is not the type of policy that a developed country with the well-being of its citizens at heart should have in place. While we support the motion and I do not think, in good faith, that any of us would argue that penalising children for the size of their family is good policy and my colleagues Naomi Long and Stephen Farry have vociferously campaigned and voted against the policy at Westminster, we would like it to be noted that we are concerned about the cost implications of a blanket call for a removal of the two-child limit before that happens at Westminster and any legislation can be changed at that level. It would break parity with what is in place and therefore siphon already much-stretched finances into creating an IT system to deliver an alternative rather than into the pockets of families, where it is needed most. I heard some costings, but I did not hear from the Opposition what the implications of breaking parity — making that change — would be.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

Yes.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

The welfare mitigations review panel costed it at about £40 million a year. It then rises a bit. The Member for Strangford disagrees, but that is what is in the —.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

It does not include —.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

First, that is what is in the welfare mitigations review panel's report. We have explained how it would be paid for. It is important to say that we have not come forward with uncosted proposals, but I welcome the fact that the Alliance Party will support the motion.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Sian, you have an extra minute.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

While I agree that you made some reference to costings, the point was more about the infrastructure around removal before there is a change in legislation.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I appreciate the Member's giving way. I will have time to speak later, but, on that point, I thought that it would be useful for the House to have the updated cost for the next financial year, which will be £56·4 million, so it has gone up significantly. It is hard for us to estimate the cost, but the IT systems are additional to that. I make no comment but am giving that figure for the benefit of the House.

Sian Mulholland (Alliance, North Antrim)

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate the clarity on that.

We recognise the need for something urgent to happen. We know that we need to put money into the pockets of families as quickly as we can. As I said to the Member for North Belfast, this is a crisis. I ask the Minister to assess urgently the practical and fiscal implications of all options for IT and infrastructure and the cost of the mitigation.

In the same spirit, we welcome, in a lukewarm way, the amendment. We do not believe that this can wait for reporting on mitigation schemes. We absolutely want to see the adoption, not just the noting, of the independent advisory panel's recommendations in the welfare mitigations review, including, as was mentioned, the offsetting of the two-child limit by introducing the better start larger families payment. That welfare supplementary payment would mitigate in full the penalising of third and subsequent children and put money back in the pocket of those who need it. Ideally, we would like to see that put in place alongside further recommendations from the mitigations review, such as the better start grant that would support families at pinch points in a child's life, and, as per Alliance policy, we would like to see an additional child payment to vulnerable households to allow for the best start to a child's life.

I will repeat what I said yesterday: regardless of the approach that we take, the question should be not how much this will cost to do but how much it will cost not to do.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Today is my birthday. You will not believe it, but I am in my 30s. I have just turned 30.

[Laughter.]

On my birthday every year, I have a phone call with my mum. I was the first child of five. My mum tells the story of her going into labour 52 years ago, in 1972. The context of that is important, because I lived in a family that would probably have qualified under today's schemes for universal credit. At times, my mum and dad were in low-paid jobs, and, at times, they relied on social security. They did their very best, and they brought up five brilliant children — I credit my brother and sisters today, although I will not give their names — but, listening to my mum this morning, I was conscious that, of all the emotions that she went through when she brought me into the world, not one of them was, "Will I get the support? Will this be OK? Will I have more kids, and, if I have more kids, what will happen?". I am thinking about my three sisters. There was me and then my brother, and three sisters came along afterwards.

We have in place a draconian, bureaucratic system that puts a price on this society's ability to support families who are in greater need. We know that, in Northern Ireland, we have larger families than on the mainland. I hope that we have bigger families, because I love Northern Ireland and the people of Northern Ireland, and, on that matter and in that manner, we should support them.

In regard to the motion and the amendment, we will absolutely support the motion. There is obviously an issue with the time frame and the ambition of doing it; I add that as a caveat. We were minded to support the amendment, but I will be honest: I will have to listen to the debate further because Mr Kingston's word almost put me off supporting it, because it did not sound to me as though there was much consideration of the impact that this is having on families. I will now race through my speech, but I thought that it was important to give the lived context of that. I will have my ears open, particularly for the Minister's comments on the two-child limit. It is imperative that we consider the voices and experiences of the thousands of families, like my family, that would be affected by this. Recent data shows that over 45,000 children in Northern Ireland live in families impacted by the limit, and that is a stark reminder of the human toll of the bureaucratic decision that it was. Moreover, public sentiment regarding the policy is indeed clear. A resounding 64% of the population believe it to be "Very unfair" or "Unfair". Such widespread discontent underscores the moral imperative for action. In fact, a significant majority — 60% of the population — are in favour of abolishing the two-child limit altogether, and that is not merely a matter for political debate; it is a reflection of our collective conscience as a society in Northern Ireland.

The statistics laid bare by the Northern Ireland Audit Office report on child poverty further underscore the urgency of our response. Nearly half of the children living in relative poverty come from families with three or more children, a deeply troubling reality that demands our immediate attention.

At the heart of the issue lies the pernicious two-child limit embedded in universal credit. I use the word "pernicious" because, when I think back, it would have affected my family — my mum and dad. It is a policy that exacerbates poverty rather than alleviates it. Families impacted by the limit are denied vital support, pushing them more deeply into financial hardship, and let us not forget that the majority of those affected are hard-working families, striving to provide for their children in an increasingly challenging economic landscape, as Mr O'Toole referenced.

This is not just about numbers on a balance sheet. It is about the real and tangible consequences faced by families across our nation. It is about the child who goes to bed hungry because their family cannot afford a proper meal. It is about the parent who sacrifices their own well-being to ensure that their children have enough to eat. It is about the cycle of poverty that threatens to engulf generation after generation, robbing them of opportunities and hope, and we heard a lot about that yesterday during our debates.

The cost of inaction is simply too great to bear. The Northern Ireland Audit Office estimates the annual cost of child poverty in our region to be between £825 million and £1 billion, a staggering sum that represents not just economic loss but human suffering. However, we are not without solutions. Removing the two-child limit is within our power and within the jurisdiction of the Northern Ireland Executive. It is a moral imperative and a duty that we owe the most vulnerable members of society. The consequences of childhood poverty far outweigh any short-term financial considerations. Investing in our children today is an investment in our future, a future characterised by prosperity, equality and opportunity.

I pay tribute to the more than 100 organisations across Northern Ireland that have united to advocate mitigations in welfare reform, and I will address one final point. Guys, we really need to get the point where, when we talk about Tory austerity and underfunding, we all understand and come back to the fact that, when this place does not sit, it genuinely sickens the life out of me. Honestly, it is just a pure geg sometimes.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Member give way?

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Absolutely. Go ahead.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Article 27 of the UN Convention —.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Sorry, time is up.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

It was not up.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Excuse me, it is up, OK? Thank you.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

As happens when you get to this stage of a debate — I know that a few Members have spoken so far —.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

I will.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way just to let me finish my speech, if you do not mind? I just wanted to say this: we are a pure geg in here when we blame everybody else but this place does not sit for five years out of eight and we fail the people of Northern Ireland. Thank you very much, Kellie.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Kellie, you have an extra minute.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker.

When you get to this stage of a debate, quite a lot of people have talked about stats and figures and the different things that you can talk about, so I will move on from that.

Last week, the child element of universal credit increased to £3,455 per child for child 1 and child 2. What does that £3,455 pay for? It pays for their food. It pays for a child's clothes. It pays for part of the roof over their head, because we know that many people live in houses where their housing benefit does not cover the full rental costs. It pays for their extortionate school uniforms. If there is a school trip, it pays for that. It pays for so many things, so why do we say that child 1 and child 2 can have that but child 3, child 4 and child 5, as in Mr Butler's family, or child 6 or more cannot have that?

The Alliance Party absolutely agrees that the two-child limit is despicable and that it should be removed, but, as my colleague said, there are costs to the removal.

I grew up in a family very like Mr Butler's family. I had the added pleasure of a younger brother — I am the oldest — who had quite severe learning disabilities, and a younger sister. She would not have had any money. My brother's costs, because of the amount of disability that he had and the extra support that we, as a family, needed for him, would have meant that we were under pressure. We lived on benefits, and I had two parents who worked. Looking at this, I can say that to take away what support that there was for me and my brother, for any length of time, would have been unimaginable.

Minister, we will support your amendment. We detest the two-child limit, but we are going to support the amendment because I want a better start larger families payment. I am on the Committee for Communities, and I will hold your feet to the fire on this. Can the Minister tell the House how much the IT system is going to cost and how long it will take to put that system in place to make this a reality? If we jump before Westminster removes the two-child limit, what will the implications be for the House? I do not say that lightly, because, if I could get rid of the two-child limit tomorrow, I would gladly do so, but, pragmatically, I do not want to take the money out of the mouths of children who are already in poverty in Northern Ireland, and which has been counted on by so many people.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

Yes, I will.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I have suggested how we could pay for this. Obviously, we hope that a future UK Government change the policy at Westminster, but I think that it is affordable here. When she talks about taking it out of the mouths of children, what does she mean exactly? How would removing it ourselves, via mitigation or directly, do that?

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

This is Opposition day. There are lots of coulds and shoulds. I am not interested in coulds and shoulds. I want to make sure that people are not without money. Coulds and shoulds do not pay for somebody's school uniform or put food in a child's mouth. I need to absolutely know that, if we take a decision to do this before Westminster does it, we are not going to put people in a worse situation. I explained that when I spoke to the Cliff Edge Coalition, Action for Children and the British Association of Social Workers. I have spoken to everybody about this. Let us do this, but let us do it well; let us not put people in further poverty. That is why the Alliance Party is supporting the amendment. Asking the Communities Minister for:

"a plan before this Assembly to remove the two-child limit before the end of 2024"

is not enough for me. I want to see a payment coming forward.

Just as my colleague has concerns that the amendment is a bit wishy-washy, so do I, but, to be honest, it gives a better direction, and it gives something on which I, as a member of the Communities Committee, can work with the Minister to take forward.

A better start larger families payment by way of a Northern Ireland mitigation will mean that people here will not have to suffer from the loss of the £3,455 per child for the third child and subsequent children, but we need to know where that money is going to come from. If you divide £3,455 per child per year, that cost is £66·45 a week. Where are we going to get that money from? That money will need to come through as part of a coherent anti-poverty strategy in which all of the Executive have agreed to use the money to lift people out of poverty. I would back you on that, Minister, but I do not know whether the whole Executive would be willing to give up the money to allow it to happen. However, we need to do something. Having a better start larger families payment as a mitigation is what we need to do.

That is what we said in the House about the bedroom tax. What a disaster that was, but we could not afford to walk away from the bedroom tax, so we mitigated the costs. That is what we need to do with the two-child limit. Until such times as Westminster changes that, we put a mitigation in place so that we protect children and lift them out of poverty. Sadly, I do not believe that a Labour Government are going to do that. I am concerned that £56 million is only the start of the annual costs for this. The IT costs and the length of time that it would take to implement would mean that we would have a generation of children here who would not have that support because Northern Ireland would not be able to afford it. Therefore, I agree with the amendment, but I say this to the Minister: we are looking at you for this, and we are looking for movement forward on it.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Many aspects of Tory policy of the past 14 years have brought pain to working people, but, today, we are discussing a uniquely cruel and punitive policy. Since the introduction of the two-child limit, the Tories have insisted that it is designed to boost employment, yet it is perverse Tory social engineering that is designed to punish the most vulnerable, push families over the brink and force more and more children into abject poverty.

The facts speak for themselves. As a result of the two-child limit, families with a third child or more children born since 2017 are missing out on up to £3,500 per child. Over one fifth of families in the North have three or more children. If we continue as we are, more than half of the families across the UK with three or more children will be in poverty in five years' time. The two-child limit is the single biggest driver of child poverty across these islands, so much so that the United Nations has said that the UK is in violation of international law over poverty levels and is grossly underfunding universal credit.

We know that such policies have a devastating impact in Northern Ireland, not only, as has been said, because we have larger families here but because our rates of poverty would shame any other country. They should shame the Executive and they should shame the Assembly. One quarter of children here live in poverty. In my council area of Newry, Mourne and Down, we have the second highest rate of poverty in the North, with children making up 21% of the population. The area also has, at 26%, the joint highest child poverty rate in the North. The social inequalities that we see across the North and then reflected in other ways — for example, in health inequalities — become multigenerational. It becomes a cycle, with generation after generation trapped in poverty. As legislators, how do we help people to break that cycle of poverty?

Poverty is not a personal choice; it is a political choice. It is one that successive Tory Governments — at times, supported by parties here — have made. We certainly will not forget those parties who handed welfare powers back to the Tories 10 years ago. We will listen to hear whether they are crying today about the impacts of doing so. Children and families in Northern Ireland deserve much better than that. Children have the right in law to an adequate standard of living, including the right to social security. The two-child limit, or sibling penalty, runs totally contrary to that right, but it is not enough to just blame the Tories. My party's motion asks the Minister for Communities to present a plan before the Assembly to remove the limit; not to remove it overnight, but to set the direction for, once and for all, ending the poverty trap that has caused so much misery for so many people.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Member give way?

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Yes, of course.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member makes a fantastic point about misery. Does he agree that, for mothers who have conceived through rape, it is extremely re-traumatising to have to prove that their child was conceived through rape, and that that is just another reason why we must end the two-child limit and its horrific impact on mothers across the North?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Colin, you have an extra minute.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Thank you.

Absolutely. Sometimes, the consequences of a policy are completely forgotten. For the consequences in this case to include the re-traumatisation of victims of rape and other crimes is absolutely horrendous.

While he is at it, will the Minister also use the other levers that he has at his disposal to eradicate poverty, including working with his Executive colleagues to introduce proper childcare support? That was meant to be a day-1 matter for the Executive — the four-party Executive. What concrete action have we seen them take so far? A motion? A debate? Maybe a photo shoot? Without change to bring down childcare costs, more and more families will be pushed into poverty. No one should shirk their responsibility to act or blame the Tories without stepping up to do what they can do in this place. It is our duty to mitigate the worst impulses of the Tory Government for whatever time they have left.

In summary, the two-child limit is having a devastating impact on families right across Northern Ireland. It is within our gift to remove it, so I ask the Minister for Communities to get on with his job.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I hope that the DUP, Sinn Féin and Alliance Party MLAs who are sitting here are wholeheartedly ashamed of the role that they played in implementing this detested two-child limit. I would be ashamed to be a member of a party that voted through those rotten Tory welfare reforms, which have condemned so many children to a life of stark deprivation.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

Will the Member give way?

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I will give way, yes.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

I will just remind the Minister —.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

Member.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

Member; I am sorry, Gerry. I am giving you promotions. In the House of Commons on 31 January 2012, when the vote was taken, Naomi Long, who was an MP at that stage, voted against welfare reform.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gerry, you have an extra minute.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I remind the Member that, in 2014 or 2015, I think, in this Building — I was not here, and I do not think that she was either — her party, alongside the DUP and Sinn Féin, voted for welfare reform. You voted for it. I gave way to you, so I would appreciate it if you did not intervene again and shout at me when I am trying to speak.

This appalling attempt at social engineering has plunged too many families into poverty and should be repealed as a matter of course. Just yesterday, we debated child poverty. The statistics give only a partial picture of the hardship that has been wrought by the two-child limit, but it is important that we have them. Nearly half of all children who are living in relative poverty come from families with three or more children, and while nearly one in 10 children in the North live in households that are affected by the two-child limit — that is some 45,000 — it is important to mention the fact that over 4,000 of those children live in my constituency of West Belfast. That means that 16% of children are affected by the two-child limit in West Belfast, where at least 28·5% of children live in poverty.

You can see the damage that has been caused by this disastrous anti-working-class policy. It must be said that that is the harsh reality that has been imposed on our communities by Alliance, Sinn Féin, the DUP and, obviously, the Tories.

The research —.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the Member for giving way for the second time. Will he agree that the attendance in the House today by MLAs from the DUP, Sinn Féin and Alliance is disappointing given the nature of this important debate? Will he also agree that it is equally disappointing that Alliance, as it did in 2015, is once again acting as a mudguard for the two parties that are failing people?

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for his point. It is a valid one, because there is a bit of collective amnesia, and some spinning of history is being attempted in the debate. People should know better than that.

The research that was presented to us —.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I really need to make headway. If I have time, I will.

The research that was presented to the Assembly shows that the Executive have the power to scrap the two-child limit. More importantly, it shows that the parties that told us that there was no alternative to its implementation told a blatant spoof. Welfare reform and the two-child limit was a choice that the Assembly never had to make, but it chose to make it.

People Before Profit vociferously opposed a raft of Tory-designed welfare reforms, because we maintained that poverty in general, and child poverty specifically, does not have to exist in a society with colossal wealth. While letting the wealthy off the hook for billions in unpaid tax, the Tories, with the help of Stormont, brought forward policies to penalise the poor, the sick and the vulnerable. Indeed, according to one report:

"only the wealthy few, with the financial resilience to withstand all of life’s misfortunes without recourse to the benefits system, could ever responsibly decide to have more than two children."

What a rotten society we live in.

We know what it was about, and we will not forget the role that was played by Sinn Féin, the DUP and Alliance, which implemented welfare reforms, including the two-child limit, in a bid to devolve and cut corporation tax.

Communities across the North are clearly still feeling the harsh impact of those awful political decisions. I agree that we need to scrap the two-child limit. In our view, the entire welfare system is not fit for purpose. It has created a society where to be sick, unemployed or born working class has the potential to condemn you to a life of poverty.

People Before Profit wants the Executive to scrap the two-child limit — of course I do — but what I really want to hear today is a pledge from parties here and from the Minister that they will never again vote for or allow the British Government to roll out welfare reforms with similar intent. We have heard a lot from the Executive about tackling poverty. Welfare is a devolved matter, so I see no good reason why we cannot have a fairer system that allows children and all people to live with a bit of dignity.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I call the Minister for Communities, Mr Gordon Lyons, to respond to the debate. Minister, you have 15 minutes.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate, and I sincerely thank the Members from the SDLP for their Opposition motions. It is useful for us to have such conversations around what are really important issues, and I am pleased to take part in the debate.

I thought it strange that SDLP Members Mr O'Toole and Mr McCrossan indicated that attendance at debates shows the level of interest that parties have in the matter. The Member pointed towards the attendance of other parties in this place. I do not think that he can draw anything from the attendance of Members today, but, if he is to do that and if he continues down that line, that must mean that the SDLP has no interest in housing, because there was an Adjournment debate on housing last week in the Chamber, and not a single Member of the SDLP turned up. They may want to reconsider their thoughts on that issue.

There is no question that, over the past several years, we have seen significant challenges for people in Northern Ireland and, indeed, the rest of the UK, particularly for our most vulnerable. We have had the COVID-19 pandemic and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and we have seen food and energy prices increased to the highest levels in four decades. We know that those cost-of-living increases hit low-income households hardest. As Minister, I am committed to continuing the important work of my Department in providing support to those who are most in need.

I acknowledge the findings of the Audit Office's report on child poverty, and I acknowledge the scale of the problems that we face, with 18% of children living in relative poverty. As is highlighted in the report, growing up in poverty has lifelong implications, with children from poorer households being twice as likely to leave school with no GCSEs and those who attain five GCSEs being 24% less likely to get the top grades. That in turn leads to reduced earning potential and employment prospects in adulthood, and that is simply unacceptable. We must work together to give our children a better start and better opportunities not only to simply survive but to thrive and, importantly, to set them on a path to meet their full potential. We know that poverty is rarely caused by a single factor; indeed, the Audit Office report highlights the fact that low incomes, worklessness and the rising cost of living are all among the factors that significantly impact on child poverty.

The factors to alleviate child poverty in our society are also multifaceted, and our approach must be collective and committed. I am certainly committed to doing what I can to drive down the levels of child poverty in Northern Ireland and to working with Executive colleagues to ensure that children who have been affected by poverty are afforded the opportunity to live happy, healthy and productive lives.

The report, based on 2019 to 2020 data, reflects that almost half of children in relative poverty in Northern Ireland live in families with three or more children. The two-child limit will inevitably impact on claimants who have chosen to have larger families. My Department currently administers welfare mitigation schemes to alleviate the impact of specific changes to the social security system in Northern Ireland, such as the benefit cap and the bedroom tax, and the total budgetary requirement for the current mitigations package is £45 million for 2024-25. In October 2022, the independent advisory panel published the report of its welfare mitigations review, and it recommended creating new mitigation schemes, including the better start larger families payment, to offset the two-child limit.

I do not want the House to be in any doubt about my position on the two-child limit. I agree with what nearly every Member has said about that. From the research that has been done since then, the Government's ambitions have not even been met here. The policy has not led to the changes that they hoped for. There are issues with it. I am convinced of the problems that it causes. The issues around rape, for example, are particularly galling; it is horrendous to have to ask any parent to go through that. I do not support or defend the two-child limit in any way, and I do not think that it is of benefit to people in Northern Ireland.

I have to look at the cost of mitigating the two-child policy, however. As I set out earlier, the latest available estimate of the cost of mitigating it, if we were to take it on, is £56·4 million for this year. Kellie Armstrong asked about the total costs: unfortunately, I cannot give them. We have that figure of £56·4 million, which is the mitigation cost, but additional IT systems would need to be in place, and there would be ongoing staff costs. Mr McCrossan, in particular, has frequently raised the issue of staffing in my Department. I simply do not have those additional costs for the Member, but Kellie Armstrong will remember the debates that we had in the House during the previous mandate on the difficulties around IT systems in relation to parental bereavement leave and pay. It is not easy for us to do that in terms of the finance or the infrastructure required.

I think that the SDLP means the motion to mean something other than what it means. My understanding and a plain text reading of the motion is that the SDLP wants me to present a plan before the Assembly to remove the two-child limit before the end of 2024. I think that the leader of the Opposition wants me to present a plan before the end of this year, but, if the plain text reading is right, he actually wants me to remove the two-child limit before the end of 2024. That is simply not possible in terms of finance and, particularly, the IT infrastructure that would be necessary. I am committed to doing what I can to address the issue. Concerns have been expressed via the amendment that my colleagues tabled, but I can assure the Member that I am working at pace to bring the report forward as quickly as possible. Although the amendment asks me to bring it forward before the end of the financial year, I believe that I will be in a position to bring it before the end of the calendar year, if not sooner. I understand how important it is. My officials are currently —.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Minister give way?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I will, yes.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

The Minister mentioned our text. It asks him to bring a plan to remove the two-child limit before the end of 2024. The Minister's party colleague said that that was unaffordable. The Minister says that he will look at the panel review and bring forward a report by the end of 2024 but seems to be saying that he rules out action to remove the two-child limit. Is there not a contradiction, if the Minister is saying that he cannot afford it and that it will not happen? Why is he bringing forward a report in the first place, if he has prejudged its outcome, and why is our motion objectionable in that regard?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

My understanding is that the Member is asking me to remove the two-child limit this year. If the motion does not mean that but means what, I think, he actually means, which is to bring forward a plan to remove it, I cannot commit definitely to do so, because of the costs that I have outlined. I appreciate that the Member is trying to be a bit more mature than most opposition parties may be. He has tried to give evidence of where the funding would come from. He used the example of the non-domestic vacant rating, which, I think, he has spoken about before. We know how much that has brought in in the past: it alone would not cover the cost, and nor would the regional rate increase, which, I think, the Member's party was against. Certainly, his party leader complained about it on Twitter yesterday, and Mr McGrath has been particularly concerned about the rate rises in his area.

We cannot have it both ways. We cannot be opposed to regional rates or come to the House with four or five different ways in which that money could be spent and then ask for it to be spent on something else as well. I am trying to be up front and honest with Members by saying that yes, of course, I want to be in a position to remove the limit, but that I do not believe that we will be in a position to take it on ourselves, put in the legislative changes and pay for them. I want to look at that report in the round, however. I want to look at all the interventions and at how we can use the resources that we have to make sure that we tackle the issues that cause the greatest distress and hardship and contribute to poverty. Of course child poverty is a problem. I am wholly committed to playing my part in alleviating that, but I cannot support the motion as framed to remove the two-child policy by the end of this year.

Tackling poverty is, of course, a responsibility for the entire Executive. I know that I am going back over some of the points that were made in the debate yesterday, but it is worth repeating that we are working at pace on the development and implementation of an anti-poverty strategy. We are looking at how we, as an Executive, can best move that forward. I want to work with Executive colleagues to agree an anti-poverty strategy that is sustainable and deliverable, and the issues raised will form part of that.

I will comment on some of the speeches that we have heard today. I completely agree with what the Chairman of the Committee for Communities said about the impact of the policy. He was realistic about finding a way for us to offset sustainably the impact of the two-child limit. I also welcome the comments from Sian Mulholland in that regard. She took a sensible approach by recognising that it is not just about the cost of the mitigations but about the cost of the IT systems and the infrastructure. That is why it is important that we consider all the recommendations in the round. If we are to put additional resources into tackling poverty, I want to make sure that we spend them on people and not on IT systems, where possible. To be fair to the Opposition, however, I think that they realise that there does not need to be complete abolition and that, rather, mitigation is possible. I accept that.

I wish Robbie Butler a very happy birthday. I am glad that his mother still calls him on his birthday. I hope that he calls his mother as well and not just on his birthday. I recognise the points that he made about the impact that the policy has on larger families in particular. Other Members made similar points. We do not want to find ourselves in the position in which children are penalised simply because their parents have more children. Kellie Armstrong referred to that issue as well.

Mr McGrath mentioned the importance of childcare: that is a priority for the Executive. That we are not making announcements about it in the Chamber does not mean that the work is not ongoing. Paul Givan has taken on the issue from day 1. It has been a constant theme around the Executive table, and I look forward to progress being made.

Mr McGrath also made the point that tackling poverty is not simply about any one issue. Yes, the two-child limit is important, but this is about getting people into work; getting people better-paid jobs; making sure that people have appropriate childcare so that they can work; making sure that we address health inequalities; and making sure that people have warm homes in which to live. All of that contributes to the outcomes that we want to see, and that is what I am committed to doing. He told me to get on with the job: I assure him that that is exactly what I am doing, as I want to see the wider issue of child poverty sorted out. We need to address it. Doing that will take many different forms, and I look forward to making sure that we deliver.

In closing, I —.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

Will the Minister give way?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Yes, quickly.

Nuala McAllister (Alliance, Belfast North)

You mentioned all the different ways in which we can address poverty. I highlight something that was not mentioned in the debate today: while the Tory Government have ripped away the safety net from many families across Northern Ireland, many organisations in the charity and voluntary sectors have stepped up and provided the much-needed support that the Government should have provided. It is important to put it on record that we are grateful to the organisations that are knitted into our community for providing support where the Government have fallen down.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

If we did not have the voluntary and community sector in Northern Ireland, we would find ourselves in a horrendous situation. It holds so much together, and it has really borne the brunt of some of the spending constraints that have been in place in recent years, so I completely acknowledge and accept what the Member said. That ongoing support is vital, and if that support were to be taken away, it would put incredible strain on our public services. I join her in paying tribute to the sector.

I hope that Members can see what we are trying to do through the amendment. It is realistic, and I give the personal commitment that I will do everything that I can to address child poverty.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Minister. I call Brian Kingston to make a winding-up speech on the amendment. Brian, you have five minutes.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank all Members for their comments. We thank the SDLP, the Opposition party, for bringing the motion. Although we have proposed an amendment, I would point out to them that the majority of the wording of their motion will be kept. Our amendment is towards the end of the motion, and on the best way to address these issues. We agree with the SDLP that we acknowledge the findings of the Audit Office report on child poverty, that nearly half of children living in relative poverty come from families with three or more children. We recognise the pernicious role that the universal credit two-child limit has played in increasing the number of children in poverty, and we understand that the majority of those negatively impacted by the two-child limit are working families.

Through our amendment, instead of requiring the Minister to introduce the mitigation by the end of this financial year from the block grant from which we have to run public services in Northern Ireland, we are charting a way forward with a view to the better start larger families payment, and the recommendations regarding that.

We thank the other Members for their comments. Colm Gildernew spoke about other mitigation measures. He pointed out that the Executive have to meet the associated costs from the block grant, and that we needed to be realistic about costs and timescale. Sian Mulholland, likewise, was concerned about the cost implications of breaking parity with benefit funding from the Treasury. She said that she would give lukewarm recognition to the amendment, which we will accept in the circumstances.

[Laughter.]

Of course, we are dealing with an imperfect situation, and a rule that we all agree is punitive and is punishing larger families.

Robbie Butler said that the cost of inaction was too great to bear. Kellie Armstrong wanted to see the better start larger families payment actively brought forward, and said that she would be looking for evidence of that. She said that we needed certainty of the consequence of funding in the absence of Treasury funding and that the amendment at least gave better direction, and that Alliance would support it.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

OK, briefly.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I will be brief. Will the Member acknowledge that your amendment — the Alliance Party should be clear about this — does not call on the Minister to introduce a better start larger families payment? It asks that the Assembly:

"notes the recommendations of the independent advisory panel report"

including this proposal, and:

"calls on the Minister for Communities to consider the merits of this proposal".

Anyone in the Chamber who is saying or implying that the amendment creates a better start larger families payment or in any way obliges the Minister to introduce it is, I am afraid, codding people on. It is very lukewarm, to use a phrase.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

The problem is that the original proposal is looking for —

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Brian, you have an extra minute.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

— an in-year commitment during the financial year, a £56·4 million cost, plus IT and staff costs. These things have to be done in a way that is sustainable and within the finances that we have available. To find possibly £100 million in-year would be hugely damaging to other public services, and your party — all parties — are highlighting needs in the public sector. This is not ignoring the issue. It is trying to have a considered and planned way forward.

Colin McGrath said that the two-child limit was a uniquely cruel and punitive policy, and also mentioned that up to a quarter of children here are living in poverty. Gerry Carroll said that the entire benefits system is not fit for purpose and that, in his view, the Assembly should not implement any changes to the benefit system that are agreed at Westminster.

The Minister, in response, highlighted that the economic shocks of recent years have been experienced most by lower-income families. He is committed to doing what he can, through his Department, to drive down poverty levels so that children can live happy, healthy and productive lives. He pointed out that there are mitigations in place that cost £45 million per year. He highlighted the costs of ending the two-child limit at £56·4 million per annum, in addition to IT and staff costs. He said that he expects that the report that he requested will be brought back by the end of the calendar year, if not sooner. He also reiterated that he is wholly committed to reducing poverty and child poverty, as indeed is my entire party.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I call Mark Durkan to make a winding-up speech on the motion. Mark, you have 10 minutes.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

[Translation: Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker.]

Our unique position, growing housing crisis, low-wage economy, prevalence of larger families and high levels of people living with a disability mean that the impact of welfare reform has been more pronounced here. The need for mitigations was recognition that this policy was, and is, wrong. Social justice is a core founding principle of the SDLP, and I argue that the two-child cap, the biggest driver of poverty in the UK, is one of the biggest social justice challenges of our time. To stand idly by would contradict the essence of not just my party but that of the Assembly and Executive. This policy contradicts the principles of equality and fairness and cannot merely be mitigated — it must be abolished.

Since the introduction of welfare reform, compounded by the lack of a functioning Executive, we have seen an increase in child poverty rates, rising homelessness and a huge rise in the use of food banks. As of last April, 422,000 children were impacted by this cruel cap, a number that will rise massively given the recent migration of tax credit claims to universal credit. We are yet to feel the full punch of a policy that disproportionately impacts on single-parent households, chiefly single mothers. The UC migration will ensure that families with three or more children will be financially disadvantaged by £3,400 per year per child for their third child and every additional child, entrenching poverty as a daily reality for hundreds of thousands of children. Impact will differ from home to home: some will get it bad, and some will get it worse.

The impact is also being felt sharply by and across our local economy. Many in the Chamber were led to believe that the two-child cap, the benefit cap and the five-week wait under UC would be resolved under secondary welfare legislation. In 2021, Minister Deirdre Hargey assured me that they remained a priority consideration and would be progressed as a matter of urgency. The Sinn Féin/DUP-led Executive, however, failed people as they engaged in sham fights over mitigations. Now, Minister Lyons states that he has no plans to mitigate the two-child policy.

A Member

Will the Member give way?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Sorry, I do not really have time. I will come to you if I have time later on.

It is important to understand the events that got us here. The two-child limit was floated by then Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, among additional austerity-based welfare reform measures, as part of his post-election emergency Budget in July 2015. Osborne was, even then, deemed one of the most disastrous post-war Chancellors Britain had ever seen — too posh and too out of touch even for the Tories. His reforms were intended to encourage people into work and to cut the welfare bill. It is all very reminiscent of Victorian Poor Law, and I do not make the comparison flippantly. Those laws compelled the idle to work and perpetuated harmful, divisive stereotypes about the poor — the benefit scroungers — rather than setting sights on the big fish that continue to evade tax by the billion.

Some of this narrative was sadly parroted by the DUP at times and in places. I have to say that I am glad that they seem to have wised up, at least in that regard. Essentially, the Dickensian policies, founded by the Tory Government and rubber-stamped by the DUP, Sinn Féin and Alliance, have created a system whereby households in full-time work do not earn enough to support themselves.

I should point out for context that that was the Tory agenda that was in play at the very time when the Assembly voted to vest power in Westminster to inflict welfare reform on the North. The vote in 2015 by the DUP, Sinn Féin and Alliance was not just to acquiesce to the Welfare Reform Act 2012 but to fully endorse the entire suite of reforms — sorry, cuts — that were being driven by a Tory Government. They gave the big, bad Tory wolves the keys to the henhouse. The SDLP was the only party, both at Westminster and in the Assembly, that consistently voted against those reforms. Even Iain Duncan Smith resigned in 2016, claiming that universal credit was not achieving its intended aim of supporting working families and was not safeguarding people with disabilities.

I make no bones about it: the two-child cap is discriminatory by design. It disproportionately impacts on families from specific cultural and religious backgrounds, including Catholics and migrants. According to the Child Poverty Action Group, there are twice as many large poorer families here as there are in Scotland and the south-west of the UK. Colm Gildernew made those exact points and stated that his party continues to call for the UK to scrap the policy. Sinn Féin would have been better voting against it than standing with placards on the lawns of Westminster.

Despite those circumstances, Mr Lyons recently confirmed that no equality assessment has been carried out on the impact of the two-child cap on the North or on women specifically. It is unforgivable that such a profound policy change was accepted while Departments were blindfolded to the reality of its consequences in this region. As if the nature of the two-child policy was not odious enough, the rape clause, which was raised by, among others, Ms Mulholland and Mr McGrath, is an egregious example of insensitivity and injustice in policymaking. It forces women to disclose deeply traumatic experiences of sexual assault in order to access welfare support for a third child who has been conceived as a result of rape. That re-traumatises and dehumanises survivors. It also poses a greater ethical dilemma for social workers in the North than that faced by their GB counterparts, because, under section 5 of the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967, a social worker could face prosecution for not reporting a rape disclosed to them during a universal credit application. The policy therefore fails to safeguard not only women but the social work sector.

It is a policy that drives poverty and places the UK in violation of international law under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. If such reforms broke Britain, I fear that they will eviscerate the North. How can we, in good conscience, accept that as an example of effective policy? We have been elected to make this place work. That means making tough decisions, but not at the expense or to the detriment of the people whom we represent. We are under no illusion that funding the removal of the two-child policy will be easy. We estimate that it will cost in the region of £135 million in the first three years. That could be, as my colleagues have said, funded by using the rates increase and further reform of the rates system. In reference to a point that the Minister made, the more you increase rates — we are not looking to increase rates across the board — the more empty premises we will see.

We are open to exploring options alongside Departments and Executive parties. We tabled this motion to get the Executive to act, not to embarrass them for not acting, although it would be impossible to embarrass some of the parties here. I am disappointed but not surprised that the parties that enabled that punitive policy have circled the wagons. Alliance is voting for an amendment that Ms Armstrong described as being "wishy-washy" rather than taking a principled stand or even giving us a plan for how to put money back into people's purses now — wishy-washy indeed.

To not support our motion because of cost, when there have been no such concerns as Executive parties have passed motion after apple-pie motion that would see spending like we have not seen since 'Brewster's Millions', suggests that some have misunderstood the meaning of Opposition day. Sinn Féin Members seem to have gone into hiding, although I am glad that they seem to be in breach of their two-MLA limit.

Child poverty costs society an estimated £1 billion per year, but abolishing the two-child limit has been lauded as the most cost-effective way of reducing those costs and would immediately lift a quarter of a million children out of poverty. Inaction on the matter will cost us dearly. On balance, we cannot accept that scrapping this callous rule would place serious and recurring constraints on public spending. We will not, as you will not be surprised to hear, support the amendment, which calls on the Minister to have a wee think about the merits of maybe doing something this time next year.

I thank and put on record our party's thanks to all those who work so hard in the sector. Their commitment has been unwavering, and their work has at times been harrowing. We thank them.

Question put, That the amendment be made. The Assembly divided:

Ayes 69; Noes 10

AYES

Dr Archibald, Ms Armstrong, Mr Baker, Mr Beattie, Mr Blair, Mr Bradley, Ms Bradshaw, Mr Brett, Miss Brogan, Mr Brooks, Ms Brownlee, Mr Brown, Mr K Buchanan, Mr T Buchanan, Mr Buckley, Ms Bunting, Mr Butler, Mrs Cameron, Mr Chambers, Mr Clarke, Mr Delargy, Mr Dickson, Mrs Dillon, Mrs Dodds, Mr Donnelly, Mr Dunne, Ms Eastwood, Ms Egan, Mr Elliott, Ms Ennis, Mrs Erskine, Ms Ferguson, Ms Flynn, Ms Forsythe, Mr Frew, Mr Gildernew, Mr Givan, Miss Hargey, Mr Harvey, Mr Honeyford, Mr Irwin, Mr Kearney, Mr Kelly, Ms Kimmins, Mr Kingston, Mrs Little-Pengelly, Mr Lyons, Mr McAleer, Miss McAllister, Mr McGuigan, Mr McHugh, Miss McIlveen, Mr McReynolds, Mrs Mason, Mr Mathison, Mr Middleton, Mr Muir, Ms Mulholland, Ms Á Murphy, Mr C Murphy, Mr Nesbitt, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Miss Reilly, Mr Robinson, Mr Sheehan, Ms Sheerin, Mr Stewart, Mr Tennyson

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Brooks, Mr Kingston

NOES

Mr Carroll, Mr Durkan, Mr Easton, Ms Hunter, Mr McCrossan, Mr McGlone, Mr McGrath, Ms McLaughlin, Mr McNulty, Mr O'Toole

Tellers for the Noes: Mr McCrossan, Mr McGrath

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly acknowledges the findings of the recent Northern Ireland Audit Office report on child poverty that nearly half of all children living in relative poverty come from families with three or more children; recognises the pernicious role that the universal credit two-child limit has played in increasing the number of children in poverty; understands that the majority of those negatively impacted by the two-child limit are working families; notes that removing this limit is within the powers of the Northern Ireland Executive but would place serious and recurring constraints on public spending; further notes the recommendations of the independent advisory panel report 'Welfare Mitigations Review', including the proposal to offset the two-child limit by introducing a better start larger families payment; and calls on the Minister for Communities to consider the merits of this proposal when meeting his statutory obligation to produce a report on the current, and future, operation of welfare mitigation schemes by the end of this financial year.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Members, take your ease, please, until we change the top Table. Thank you.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Blair] in the Chair)

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Members, order —.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Mr Deputy Speaker, may I take this opportunity to apologise to the Chamber, yourself and, indeed, the Minister for my phone inadvertently going off in the previous debate?

Some Members

Shame.

[Laughter.]

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Thank you for that. I am sure that Members appreciate your clarification.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I beg to move

That this Assembly believes it is unacceptable that 290 people in Northern Ireland die each winter due to cold homes; accepts that the Warmer Healthier Homes fuel poverty strategy is over a decade old and is no longer fit for purpose; calls on the Executive to include a clear target for eradicating fuel poverty in the next Programme for Government; and further calls on the Minister for Communities to work with his Executive colleagues to establish a fuel poverty task force and to present an updated fuel poverty strategy before the end of this year, with specific commitments to introduce a cap on energy prices, system price protections for home heating oil customers and proposals for social tariffs to protect the most vulnerable.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes. Please, open the debate on the motion.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This is an important motion on eradicating fuel poverty. I begin by thanking the various groups that met with SDLP colleagues this morning, in the Great Hall, and others who we have been engaging with over the past number of months and, indeed, years on this very important issue. Those groups and charities are vital and do huge work in our communities to support the most vulnerable. They have been strong and powerful voices, particularly when this institution was not functioning for prolonged periods, and they have been extremely resilient in the face of considerable cuts and challenges to their own organisations, even though they have been advocating daily in the interests of ordinary people.

The issue is a huge challenge for society. We, as MLAs, continually — on a daily basis — hear the challenges that our constituents face in relation to fuel poverty and the rising costs of fuel, particularly of late, when we have seen energy companies drive their pricing through the roof, to the extent that it is entirely unaffordable and has had considerable adverse effects on ordinary people — not just the vulnerable, but working families who have been driven to the brink and who are very concerned about the issue. The Department for Communities has defined poverty as a household that spends more than 10% of its income on energy costs, but the Department's figures show that, in 2021, the rate of fuel poverty was 24%, which is about 179,000 households. That is up from 18% in 2018. Those figures from 2021 are from before we had a cost-of-living crisis. In 2021, when we were coming through the worst effects of the pandemic, the SDLP was talking loudly about the cost-of-living crisis that was about to hit hard. That is exactly what it did. Our people are reeling from its consequences and from how it has put them into significant financial difficulty with regard to the things that most people should, and normally would, take for granted.

In May 2022, the Consumer Council produced a report that claimed that the actual number suffering from fuel poverty could be as high as 34%, and the Fuel Poverty Coalition suggests that figures are closer to 40%. Those are damning figures. They are a hugely shocking and real insight into the challenges that exist in our constituencies. I do not think that any MLA would disagree about the consequences of such stark figures and the impacts that they have on our community. That same report states that around 30% of excess winter deaths in Northern Ireland can be attributed to cold homes. Indeed, as the motion outlines, it is estimated that 290 people in Northern Ireland die each winter as a result of cold homes.

As Members will know, the fuel poverty strategy is out of date. It has not been updated since 2011, when it was introduced by my former colleague the then social justice Minister Alex Attwood. We are now in 2024, some 13 years on. I am sure that Members will understand and appreciate that things have changed dramatically in society as a consequence of the ever-changing situation with rising costs for energy, food and every aspect of human life. That strategy is most certainly out of date and needs to be updated to reflect the challenges of today's society.

The truth is that, in 2024, many families in Northern Ireland are in fuel poverty, more so than ever before. That is a major challenge for the House, but it must be a priority for the Executive. Members have stood up and talked about the importance of looking after the public purse as its custodians. I appreciate that, but nothing is more important than dealing with poverty when people are struggling to make ends meet.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he share my concern that, when the Executive were down, parties made various day-1 commitments, for example, on an anti-poverty strategy, and, when they have had the chance to vote for those exact commitments, they have failed to do so? Does he share my concern about that double-speak?

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I agree with the Member. I could state a long list, but my time to say what I could on this particular issue is limited.

The truth is that, when people needed us, we were not here. The Executive could have helped and assisted countless families. Often, in the House, when it is easy to do so, we point to the Tories and their austerity agenda, but the truth is that simple things were not being done in the House, where they should have been done. People's lives and needs should have been prioritised, and vulnerable people continued to struggle. The truth is that the Executive have failed. They have failed when they have existed and they absolutely failed when they collapsed. As a consequence, people have suffered.

There are huge challenges for the North. We are hugely reliant on heating oil. Across the North, 68% of homes rely on it. Rural constituencies like mine are discriminated against. According to Consumer Council research, 82% of homes in those areas rely on home heating oil. The market is unregulated, so it is unchallengeable and, therefore, gets away with charging extortionate amounts of money, forcing people into more difficulty. As I have outlined, Northern Ireland experiences some of the highest energy prices in the UK. When we should have been in the House discussing and trying to deal with those exact problems, we were outside talking about them. Fuel poverty has been exacerbated for people because we were not here to even attempt to mitigate it in any way.

Housing stock is not efficient. It is clear from discussions in the House in recent weeks that there are huge concerns about the efficiency of housing stock. Only 63% had cavity wall insulation, and the housing stock was non-compliant with current industry standards. Only 481 Housing Executive homes have had cavity wall insulation works within the past five years. I am sure that people would agree that that is a ridiculous failing as well.

The working poor are the group that I would say are struggling most because, with the rising costs of inflation and the fact that wages have not gone up, they are being pushed further and further into poverty and struggle. Carers NI has flagged up that 31% of unpaid carers are cutting back on essentials, such as heating, and that rises to 42% of those who are on carer's allowance; people who save the public purse a fortune by looking after their loved ones or people in the community daily. Eighteen per cent of carers are struggling to afford utility bills. Those statistics are real-life examples of how people are struggling with the rising cost of living and as a consequence of the failure of the House to bring forward a strategy that would actually lay out a plan to deal with those challenges.

The SDLP supports the work of the Fuel Poverty Coalition and its call to help the worst off, prevent postcode lotteries and embed an emergency response. The SDLP would like to see an upgrade of the fuel poverty strategy before the end of this year. We need to see a plan. No one in the House would disagree with that, but it needs to happen now: we cannot just talk about it. We also want the strategy to include, as outlined in the motion, a cap on energy prices, price protections for home heating oil customers and social tariffs for the most vulnerable. We want to see an increase in the winter fuel payment, which has not increased since 2011. The Communities Minister has the power to review the rate of that payment. I appreciate the financial challenge, but that is a priority issue. I hope that the Minister will feel strongly, as I do, about that, and I urge him to review that rate.

We need a cross-departmental fuel poverty task force, with all-party support, to bring a laser-like focus to the issue. We also need a warm homes discount scheme, similar to the one that is available in England, which provides a £150 credit on your bill and is of benefit to low-income families in particular. We also want earlier notification of billing by utility companies to give people due notice, because they are being given those bills and all of a sudden are not able to pay them. On the issue of extortionate utility rates, I received a gas bill recently that said that my bill was about to be cut by 21%. How can they jump from one end to the other? It is entirely ridiculous how they have been able to punish the most vulnerable in our society. This place needs a new strategy to tackle fuel poverty. The current strategy, which is 13 years out of date, is no longer sufficient and has not been for some time. Minister, we need to get on with that important job.

I will conclude with a quote before commending the motion to the House:

"Overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity ... It is the protection of a fundamental human right, the right to dignity and a decent life."

That is a quote from Nelson Mandela, and it is very relevant to the people in our society who are struggling on a daily basis to make ends meet. We are elected to solve problems, and we can work collectively to do that. There is no greater challenge for our society than poverty and its impact on every aspect of our society.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the proposer of the motion for the opportunity to speak on the issue today. The cost of heating homes to a reasonable standard, like the two-child limit that we have just discussed, is another key driver of poverty. Our over-reliance on oil in the North, with limited alternative options, especially for rural dwellers, makes us particularly vulnerable to price rises. For people on low incomes, who are already paying a higher rate when they order smaller quantities, those price rises can be really difficult to absorb.

We saw the impact of that acutely when energy and food prices spiralled and we found ourselves firmly in a cost-of-living crisis. Many people turned down their heating temperatures to try to reduce usage, and others turned it off altogether, using it only when absolutely necessary or relying instead on blankets and small electric heaters. As we are all too aware, the climate in this part of the world means that there are very few months in any given year where some level of heating is not required. For too many people, that has meant, and it continues to mean, living in cold homes or cutting back on other essentials. That should not be a reality in this day and age, let alone a growing reality.

We know the implications of living in a cold home for people's physical and mental health, especially for young children, older people and those with pre-existing conditions, particularly if it is for a prolonged period. We also know that the final cost-of-living payment for people who were eligible was in February, which means that there is now less financial support available for those who have the least.

While energy costs have reduced slightly, they still remain high. I concur with the motion, which asks for an updated fuel poverty strategy. Schemes such as the affordable warmth scheme, and the boiler replacement scheme before it ended, have been extremely helpful in supporting people to improve their energy efficiency, but there is also a need for new, innovative, practical and sensible solutions. Those items listed in the motion are certainly worthy of consideration as part of that, but so too are solutions that ensure a just transition as focus turns towards decarbonisation, increasing our use of renewable energy and reducing the use of fossil fuels. A chairde,

[Translation: friends]

we need solutions that work for people in the private rented sector, who lack the agency to choose or change the type of heating system that they have and are, therefore, more limited in what they can do to increase their energy performance. In the short term, there has to be action on fuel prices or the financial support provided to offset them. That can be done by the British Government's redirecting into people's pockets the money that was raised by the windfall tax on the excess profits that were made by large energy companies. Ultimately, an updated fuel strategy needs to align with the overarching anti-poverty strategy, as poverty does not exist in isolation. We support the motion.

Brian Kingston (DUP, Belfast North)

The DUP fully endorses the need for a new long-term and cross-cutting approach to tackling fuel poverty. Rocketing energy prices have brought renewed focus to the crisis facing many, but, in truth, those problems have been building for some time. The Communities Minister is leading the process of preparing a new strategic approach to delivering real change in the fight against fuel poverty. Those ambitious plans will see the public consultation on a new strategy launch in the autumn. For context, the Housing Executive commissioned the Building Research Establishment (BRE) to model estimates of fuel poverty up to 2021. The study was published in October last year and concluded that there had been an increase in the rate of fuel poverty from 22% of households in 2016 to around 24% of households in 2021. That equated to an increase in the number of households in fuel poverty from 160,000 in 2016 to 179,000 in 2021. Overall, the combined effect of fuel price increases and energy efficiency improvements was a net increase in the mean household fuel costs of 8% between 2016 and 2021. The largest change in fuel prices was seen for electricity, with standard electricity prices increasing by 29% between 2016 and 2021.

It is clear that the 2011 strategy was somewhat overtaken by legislative developments on energy and climate change, and it is crucial that policy development takes account of those targets in a way that is fair and compassionate towards vulnerable and low-income households. Financial stress is not limited to those who are in receipt of benefits. In our low-income working households across Northern Ireland, which include many front-line workers, parents sometimes are forced to choose between whether to heat or eat or to go without so that their children's most basic needs can be met. That is not acceptable. The squeezed middle should not continue to miss out on multiple layers of support. That has to be addressed as part of the arrangements for any new energy efficiency scheme.

In the coming weeks and months, a series of workshops and focus groups will be held with stakeholders to dig deeper into what form the new strategy and scheme should take, nail down a definition of fuel poverty and discuss how and by whom any new interventions should be led. It is critical that there is close engagement and consultation with those who are personally affected by the existing affordable warmth scheme.

The proposal for a fuel poverty task force has been put forward in the motion with the best of intentions, but we are not convinced that it will provide added value, given that the Department has already set out a robust plan to engage and consult with communities, households, experts and stakeholders. Some events have already taken place in the consultation. Similarly, we are not persuaded that there is merit in prejudging the outcome of the consultation processes that have commenced by passing a motion in the House that dictates that policy such as a cap on energy prices must be part of the final strategy. That is counterproductive, and, whilst all ideas and proposals ought to be weighed up, we should not force the Executive or individual Ministers down a certain route until the consultation process has concluded.

The DUP is also clear that the development of a cross-cutting, all-of-government strategy to tackle fuel poverty over the next 10 years can be no substitute for effective and operable methods of providing emergency support to those households that need it most. It is appropriate to recognise the contribution of our membership of the United Kingdom to tackling fuel poverty. Despite being told that it could not and would not happen in the absence of the devolved institutions, households in Northern Ireland received a non-repayable payment totalling £600 last year to help with energy bills. In addition, the energy price guarantee in Northern Ireland reduced the typical household's fuel/energy bill by hundreds of pounds.

Let me be clear that, whilst I expressed misgivings about some aspects of the motion's wording, the DUP will support it.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Members, the Business Committee has arranged to meet at 1.00 pm today. I therefore propose, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The debate will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be Kellie Armstrong.

The debate stood suspended. The sitting was suspended at 12.56 pm.

On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) —

Oral Answers to Questions — Infrastructure

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

1. Mr Butler asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline how many vehicle damage claims due to road defects have been made to the Department in the past year. (AQO 279/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. During the financial year from 1 April 2023 to 31 March 2024, my Department received 4,878 roads-related vehicle damage claims. I should explain, however, that, although my Department has a statutory duty under article 8 of the Roads Order 1993 to maintain public roads, there is no automatic entitlement to compensation. My Department investigates and defends public liability claims, with every case turning on its own facts. In cases in which officials believe that the Department can raise a legal defence, claims will be defended. Since April 2019, there has been an upward trend in the number of roads-related public liability claims received by my Department. During the financial year from 1 April 2022 to 31 March 2023, 3,599 roads-related claims were received for property damage, personal injury and vehicle damage, whereas, during the financial year from 1 April 2023 to 31 March 2024, 5,643 claims were received.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his detailed answer. I am sure that he will agree that there is a worrying trend. Does he agree that the issue is not just road deterioration? Perhaps he can update us on his work to look at the quality of repairs, which do not seem to last these days. My inbox is receiving more and more worries in that regard.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Repairs are inspected, although, due to resource implications, not all of them are; I think that around 5% of them are inspected. There are two phases to repairs at the moment. Once a pothole or fault is reported to my Department, particularly through the weblink, it is allocated to a private contractor, which then takes liability for that damage. The contractor then carries out an immediate repair — a quick fix. It then has to return and carry out a full repair to that pothole to ensure that the work meets the standards of my Department. I am aware of concerns that have been raised by Members and by members of the public about the state of some repairs. It is an issue that I am discussing with my officials.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Minister recently provided evidence about private investigators investigating certain incidents. What is the exact extent of the work of those private investigators? Is it in relation to personal injury or vehicle damage? When does his Department employ those people?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

It is personal injury claims, and it is usually where a higher claim is involved. It is done only on the basis of legal advice; it is not done in every case. I have no role in it. It is down to legal advice, and officials take on board that legal advice when deciding whether a private investigator is required as they prepare a defence to a claim.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I bring the Minister back to a pothole that has been raised in the Chamber before: the notorious Northland Road "crater" pothole, which caused damage to a significant number of vehicles. Owners of those damaged vehicles are now being passed from pillar to post between DFI and Northern Ireland Water. If I follow this up with written correspondence to the Minister, will he look at the case so that those motorists are not penalised due to the lack of responsibility being taken by any Department?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am more than happy for the Member to write to me about that case. I will ask my officials to look into it to make sure that proper procedures are being followed.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

2. Mr Sheehan asked the Minister for Infrastructure for his assessment of the benefits of the Belfast Grand Central station at Weavers Cross to Belfast. (AQO 280/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The construction of the new Belfast Grand Central station is progressing well, with the first phase due to be operational in the autumn. The new station, including the associated public realm works, will be fully completed by the end of 2025. When completed, Belfast Grand Central station will be the largest integrated transport facility on the island. It will double the number of rail and bus stands and will cater for around 20 million passengers per year. In comparison, the present station accommodates approximately 7 million passengers per year. The scale of the project means that, in advance of the opening, there will be some disruption to existing rail services and some road closures to accommodate the works required. Throughout that time, Translink will keep its customers updated, and Belfast will remain open for business. The new station will include the Enterprise service, which will bring cross-border passengers into the heart of the city via a new hourly service to increase our connections North and South. The new station will help transform public transport by improving connectivity to support a modern, confident vision for Belfast and will act as a gateway to the entire island of Ireland.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra.

[Translation: I thank the Minister for his answer.]

Will the Minister tell us how the new transport hub or new station — whatever it is called — will help get people out of their cars and on to public transport?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. As part of the outline business case for the new station, it was forecast that bus and rail passengers would increase by 32% by 2030 compared with 2015. As passenger numbers rise, my Department will continue to keep the schedule of services under review as part of the review of Translink's performance under the public service agreement (PSA).

The revision of any schedule of services will need to consider the availability of funding and how best to increase the use of public transport at the time. The station, while planned a number of years ago, fits into the broader objectives of the Executive and, indeed, of the House in tackling the climate emergency. We will have a state-of-the-art station in the middle of Belfast that will allow passengers to travel in comfort not only in and out of Belfast but to other destinations.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Is the Minister in a position to outline the expected total cost of delivery of Belfast Grand Central station and to tell us whether there will be an anticipated or expected overspend?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The full business case was approved in November 2021 at a total cost of £295 million. The latest cost estimate is £340 million, which, as the Member will be aware, is £45 million higher. The vast majority of that cost increase is due to the extraordinary inflation that has impacted on all major capital projects. The project is due to be completed by quarter 4 of 2025, which is in line with the date indicated in the approved full business case.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

We are all excited about this development in South Belfast. When you visit it, the station is very impressive.

Minister, you mentioned connectivity: will you give us an insight into how the station will connect to the forthcoming south Belfast corridor for the Glider?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

All transport service planners in the Belfast area are aware that the new station is opening and of the opportunities that it will provide. The other transport services — Glider, Metro and Ulsterbus — are all connected in some way or another to the new station in order to provide an integrated travel solution.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, I am hugely excited about Grand Central. I welcome its development and pay tribute to the work of the previous Minister, Nichola Mallon, as well as to you, for delivering it. Given that we hope to have the Euros at a newly built Casement Park in a few years' time, are you looking at having additional capacity to serve the Euros and at putting on extra services from Grand Central to Balmoral and Finaghy to allow passengers to alight there and go to the matches?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Such plans will be an operational matter for Translink, but I am aware, as is Translink, of the huge opportunities that the Euros afford us and the influx of people that that will bring into our city. We want to ensure that we have public transport solutions, whether people are coming into Belfast Grand Central station or using the Glider and Metro services that are also available. There will be connectivity and plans in place for that hugely beneficial event, both for Belfast and across the North.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

The Executive have made commitments to improve the visibility of the Irish language. Activists and campaigners cannot be expected to play whack-a-mole with every new building on a case-by-case basis. Will you give a commitment to ensuring that a directive is issued to Translink to implement bilingual signage at all transport centres, including Weavers Cross?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My understanding is that I do not have the authority to issue a directive. My officials and I have been engaging with Translink on the matter. There is an opportunity for this state-of-the-art railway station to have signage in all the languages that represent the communities that it serves. I have encouraged Translink to do that, but it is a decision for Translink.

I am reviewing my Department's Irish language policy and ensuring that it is in line with the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and the upcoming Identity and Language Act so that we lead the way on that. However, this goes back to many aspects of planning: we have to ensure from the outset that our services cater for all the communities that they are there for. Unfortunately, there was a missed opportunity at the start, but there is also an opportunity to catch up.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

3. Ms Armstrong asked the Minister for Infrastructure for his assessment of his Department’s ability to achieve a reduction in emissions by the transport sector by 48% lower than the baseline by 2030. (AQO 281/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

One second. Apologies. The 48% target for 2030 quoted in the Climate Change Act 2022 is a target across all the climate sectors and is not a transport-sector-specific target. There are no specific target figures set for the transport sector.

My Department has been working closely with DAERA and other Departments on the preparation of a transport chapter and supporting the quantification work required for the climate action plan. That will outline how the transport sector will contribute to carbon budgets. Through that detailed work, my officials and I realise how challenging the targets will be for the transport sector, particularly regarding the scale of change needed. Decarbonising transport will require us all to think differently about how we travel and how we utilise zero-emissions technologies. However, as the Department lead for the transport sector, which is the second-largest emitting sector, I am working with my officials to better understand how we can decarbonise the transport sector in a balanced way and contribute to the interim targets and the net zero goal of 2050. My officials are currently developing a strong evidence base to inform the development of both the climate action plan and the transport sectoral plan in line with requirements under the 2022 Act.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister. A part of the transport sector is private cars. Will the Minister confirm how he will commit to exploring push policies that discourage private car usage in Belfast and other city centres and, indeed, large towns across Northern Ireland?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In my response to the previous question, on Grand Central station, I said that we had a state-of-the-art facility coming on board that will encourage people to a modal shift and to start using public transport. There will be a challenge in Belfast over the next number of weeks and months as a result of that development, and there is an opportunity now for the users of private cars to make that modal shift to public transport. Translink will provide more information on this as the situation develops. The clear message is that Belfast is open for business, but we want to ensure modal shift.

I am looking at all the options available to ensure that my Department reaches its climate change targets in line with its legal and moral obligations, working in conjunction with my Executive colleagues.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Will the Minister describe what his Department's approach is to decarbonising the transport system, le do thoil

[Translation: please]

?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member will be aware of the recent announcement on PEACE PLUS that we will be investing in an hourly service between Belfast and Dublin. That has been planned in such a way that we will be able to change those train sets to fully decarbonised transport systems, moving forward. We invest heavily in Translink in bringing forward zero-emissions and lower-emissions bus transport as well. That investment programme has been going on for a number of years, and I intend to continue it.

We want to see a change for private car usage where possible. As the Member represents a rural constituency, she will be acutely aware that families and businesses rely heavily on the private car. We want to ensure that they move to driving zero-emissions vehicles.

Keith Buchanan (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Staying on the emissions theme, as we speak, the transport sector — lorries and cars — sits in Cookstown, waiting to get through it, which will take approximately 30 minutes. As the public information scheme is on today, will you commit to delivering the Cookstown bypass or bring the train?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

There are opportunities with both elements. The all-Ireland strategic rail network plan will be published, hopefully, in the early summer, and I hope that that will allow for greater public connections in that area.

Yes, as the Member stated, there is a public event in Cookstown today, and I encourage as many local people as possible to attend and express their views through it. I have made a commitment to delivering a solution in that area. I want to hear the views of the public on the current plan before making a final decision on it. The bypass will provide huge opportunities that will allow the historic town of Cookstown to look at its active travel routes, how to provide a place plan for the town and how to make it more attractive — before you jump on me, I am not suggesting for one second that it is not attractive — to shoppers and others.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

4. Mr McGlone asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline how many planning application consultations NI Water has taken over six months to consider in the past two years. (AQO 282/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My Department does not produce a live count of planning consultation data in its published statutory consultation performance reports at present. However, my Department's statisticians will consider options for the production of live consultation reports, going forward.

The information available at this time confirms that NI Water has returned 85% or more of its statutory responses within the 21-day target in four of the last five published annual performance reports and reported its best performance to date — 97% of responses considered in time — in 2021-22. That level of performance has been achieved despite a high number of consultation requests, with approximately 3,500 received per year during that time.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for that detail. Perhaps we could establish whether there is more information around the level of delay that has been experienced by some people.

In a previous debate, the Minister referred to the need for or the use of pre-application discussions. Will he commit to providing extra resources to NI Water to facilitate that?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

That will be an operational decision for NI Water. In defence of NI Water, it is also facing severe financial constraints, as all other public services are, and is trying to deal with the pressures that that brings to bear.

Yes, pre-application discussions are vital. What is also vital — this has come up time and time again in discussions around planning applications — is the quality of the initial planning application. A significant percentage of the original applications are returned to applicants because they do not have the correct information or are not clear or because submissions are missing. I encourage anyone who is submitting a planning application to fully outline their case as much as possible. That will speed up their application and make the work of the statutory consultees, such as NI Water, much easier.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Does the Minister agree that there needs to be some form of penalty or sanction for the statutory bodies that do not meet the targets for planning consultation responses, given the adverse impact that such delays have on new developments and investment in Northern Ireland?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

With respect to the Member, that would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. We would be taking that money out of the public purse. All the statutory consultees are publicly funded, so, if we fined them, we would take money off them and make their job much more difficult. All the statutory consultees are under-resourced and understaffed. I am looking at my budget to see how I can support the organisations that are under my control.

We are also involved in the planning improvement process. As I said to Mr McGlone, it is vital that planning applications are properly fulfilled before they are submitted. We are looking at bringing forward legislation on the validation list, having learnt lessons from Belfast City Council. Measures are being taken to continue to make improvement in planning. I am not convinced that fining government bodies is the way forward.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

We know that time is of the essence in planning. Can the Minister detail what Northern Ireland Water has done to speed up its response times to planning consultations?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In June 2021, NI Water introduced new responses to the planning process. They provided not only a more robust response to planners but more information to inform planners of NI Water's decision-making process. As has been said by Mr McGlone and others, developers should always follow NI Water's three-step pre-development enquiry (PDE) process. Importantly for developers, PDEs are valid for 18 months from issue. The pre-development enquiry enables issues to be considered at an early stage with the aim of resolving them.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Does the Minister agree that there are significant economic constraints due to water and waste water infrastructure issues being raised at the planning stage. I think in particular about town centre regeneration and the fact that such restrictions have been placed on converting premises for, for example, hospitality purposes. The matter needs urgent attention.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes. There are definitely challenges with the financial framework within which NI Water has to operate. I am doing my best, as a Minister, to support NI Water. I am awaiting confirmation of my budget for the financial year, and I have engaged with my Executive colleagues on the matter. As I said during the debate on NI Water funding last week, we have to get the balance right. We have to ensure that we recognise the challenges and take them on head-on, but we also have to make sure that we do not send out a message that we are not open for business, because we are open for business. The pre-development engagement process has proved worthwhile for many who have engaged with NI Water to seek solutions in cases where there may be constrained areas.

I am not shying away from the challenges that NI Water faces, nor am I shying away from the challenges that they bring for the economy, but I also want to give a balanced message: we are open for business, so come and talk, and let us see what solutions we can find together.

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

5. Ms Ferguson asked the Minister for Infrastructure for his assessment of how regional transport plans change how people commute. (AQO 283/22-27)

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

9. Mr Gildernew asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on when the transport strategy will be published. (AQO 287/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 5 and 9 together.

Decarbonising transport represents the greatest challenge facing our transport network in recent times and will require public authorities and society to rethink our approach to travel. That provides an opportunity to reshape transport to better connect our towns and cities across the island and create healthier and more prosperous communities. To that end, I am working with my officials to bring forward a new transport strategy that I expect to consult on later this year. The strategy will provide an overarching framework to inform the Department's planning and delivery of transport infrastructure and services through to 2035.

The strategy will provide a vision for transport that will allow people to choose the most sustainable transport option for their journey, whatever its purpose. Central to achieving that vision will be understanding the needs and opportunities in individual communities. For example, creating more sustainable transport options in Newtownards or Belfast will not be the same as it is in Enniskillen or Ballymoney. That is why my Department is working with councils and stakeholders in communities to produce a new suite of local transport plans that are centred on local transport solutions. That will include a focus on improving active travel infrastructure, reflecting our commitment to that area in the Climate Change Act.

At the regional level, a new transport plan for the strategic transport network will seek to ensure that people are able to access employment, healthcare and other services and create balanced economic growth across the North. The regional plan will look to improve safety and maximise the potential of our strategic network, particularly for public transport.

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Thank you for the update thus far. Will you also update us on the steps that the Department has taken to improve active travel?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As part of a restructuring in my Department, a new unit has been created and supported to ensure that we are ready for the task of improving our expenditure on active travel. We are working with councils on their active travel plans as well. As the Member will be aware, we have to spend up to 10% of our budget on supporting active travel. Although not the primary reason for decarbonisation, active travel helps to improve people's health, mental health and well-being.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the transport plans support the city and growth deals?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The simple answer is yes. They are not only an integral part of the funding mechanism but a great way of working with councils. The local development plans of councils, as the Member is acutely aware, provide local democratic forums that know their communities better than anyone. It is about working in conjunction with the councils through their growth deals to ensure that we maximise investment and the progress towards ensuring that we have a transport system that is fit for the challenges of this century and the next one.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

In the transport strategy, we, obviously, want to see more decarbonisation of private cars. What plans do you have to introduce more electric vehicle charging points as part of the strategy, given that the lack of charging points is one of the biggest impediments to people buying electric vehicles.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Electric charging points in this jurisdiction are a commercial project and are driven forward by the commercial sector. I know that several companies are involved in that. My Department engages with them in order to ensure that there is an understanding of our planning system and that we overcome hurdles where we can. Obviously, each planning application has to be taken on its merits.

My Department simply does not have the funding for that project, but we are working with and encouraging the commercial sector to move forward with its programme.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

6. Mr McCrossan asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline when he will publish the recommendations of the report from the Planning Appeals Commission (PAC) on the public inquiry on the A5 western transport corridor. (AQO 284/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Since coming into office, I have made several statements on the A5 and, quite rightly, have been questioned about progress on the A5. My Department received a final advisory report from the Planning Appeals Commission on 31 October 2023 on the latest public inquiry on the project. I am fully briefed on current progress and the advisory recommendations from the PAC. My officials are working at pace on detailed consideration of the recommendations, and I hope to make an announcement on the project in the coming months. When I make the announcement, I will do so in accordance with all the relevant statutory procedures on the basis of all the evidence, representations and advice that I have received from officials and statutory agencies North and South, from members of the public and all other bodies that have participated in the process to date. I intend to release the content of the PAC report in full, together with my Department's response to each of the PAC recommendations, at the time of my announcement.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for that answer. Minister, I know that you will join me in offering your condolences to the family of Oonagh Burns from Strabane, who died last week on the A5. Fifty people have died on that road since 2007. I know that you agree that delays are leading to further deaths. Will the Minister update the House on what is delaying the publication of the report, given that it has been six months since it was handed to the Department?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I share the Member's condolences to the family of the latest victim on the A5. My responsibility in the matter bears heavily on me, I assure the Member.

The report, as I have said many times, is complex and detailed. Every line of that report will be scrutinised against my decision and my recommendation. I want to be assured beyond reasonable doubt that my officials and I, along with legal advice, have gone through it line by line and that I am living up to my statutory obligations before making any further announcement. The worst thing that we can do for those who have lost their life on the A5, their families and the communities that use it is make an announcement that is then overturned in the courts. I know that it is taking time and is frustrating — I understand that — but I want to get this one right.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

The Minister will be more than aware that the project has been delayed by legal challenges and that, sadly, legal challenges have resulted in delays that have cost lives, no longer ago than last week. Are the Minister and his Department expecting further legal challenges to the project?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I expect so, but, if legal challenges are being brought against me, I want a robust defence to be in place against them. Everyone has a right to access the courts to present their case. I understand the concerns of some in the farming community. As I have said in the House before, I am from a rural community, and I understand that grá

[Translation: love]

that the farmer has for their land.

I will use the example of the A4. I spoke to a farmer who lost a significant amount of land, and he said, "At the time I was opposed to it, but now I am proud that I did it". Since the A4 opened, two lives have been lost — that is too many — but we think of the death toll on that road beforehand, and that farmer said, "I am proud that I helped save those lives."

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Given the Minister's effusive endorsement of the project since coming into office, has he not prejudiced his ability to bring objectivity and independence to the ministerial decisions that he will be required to make?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The A5 has been a long-standing commitment of the Executive as part of previous Programmes for Government and under its flagship project. My decision-making process has to be about whether the current plan for the A5 meets all my statutory obligations. That is what I am studying. I cannot simply make a decision and say, "Because it is a flagship project, I can go ahead". It has to meet all the statutory obligations under which I operate, and that is why I am taking my time and being careful, going through it line by line to ensure that when I make my announcement, I do so on a sound basis.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

We move to topical questions.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

T1. Mr Durkan asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether he will consider the roll-out of a residents’ parking scheme in the Rosemount, Glen and Strand areas of Derry, close to the Magee campus of Ulster University. (AQT 181/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am aware of the concerns about parking in residential areas in the vicinity of colleges and universities such as the Magee campus of Ulster University. A review of residents' parking schemes that includes lessons learned from the Rugby Road scheme in the vicinity of Queen's University Belfast has been completed. The review will be used to establish the policy for such schemes going forward. Reports will be published when I have had the opportunity to fully consider the findings of the review.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I understood that no scheme in Derry would be progressed until the scheme in the Bogside had been progressed. Parking in the area continues to be a problem; in fact, it becomes more so. Does the Minister agree that it is unwise and unfair to delay progress on any and all residents' parking schemes because of difficulties in progressing the scheme in the Bogside?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

That is not my view of the situation, but I am happy to be corrected later by officials or whoever. My position on residents' parking schemes is that we have to move forward with best practice. While they may seem, on the face of it, to be a good idea — in many instances, they are a good idea — there are associated costs for my Department and, possibly, for residents. There are considerations such as how you lay out the scheme and how many cars per house are allowed to park. It is not as simple a proposal as it sounds at the outset, but there are lessons to be learned from the review, and I commit to the Member that I will respond to that in due course.

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

T2. Ms Egan asked the Minister for Infrastructure how he will address the fact that although NI Water recently completed improvements costing £4 million at the Brompton Road waste water pumping station, noticeably more sewage is going into the sea. (AQT 182/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am not aware of the specifics of the issue that the Member raises, but the Member will be aware of the recent discussion of NI Water's funding and of how and when it can discharge from its sewage works. It can discharge when the system is overcome with rainwater from drains, for example. I do not know how many incidents there have been in that case, but I am more than happy to follow up with the Member. In simple terms, we need to continue to invest in our waste water treatment works. We need to ensure that we meet all our environmental obligations. That is a huge challenge for my Department and the Executive

Connie Egan (Alliance, North Down)

Thank you, Minister. Part of the concern is that we do not know what volume of sewage is being discharged or the duration of the discharges. When will you install event duration monitors in waste water treatment works?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As part of the capital plan for NI Water, approximately 700 monitors will be installed. They will be targeted at reservoirs and swimming areas. They are starting to be rolled out and will give us a better picture of where the challenges are and where the incidents have been. We want to get to a point at which discharges are less frequent than they have been. That will require separation of foul water and rainwater drainage systems, which is a huge investment. We have started on that, but we have a long way to go.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Miss Hargey is not in her place.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T4. Mr Gildernew asked the Minister for Infrastructure to outline the benefits to biodiversity of reduced hedge trimming and grass cutting at this time of year. (AQT 184/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The benefits are huge, and my Department will continue to ensure that hedges and grass are cut at verges for road safety reasons. We have adopted a new policy from the previous time that I was in this Department, and we are now encouraging and allowing grass and flowers and biodiversity to thrive at our road verges.

Just before I came down to the Chamber, I took a walk outside. Members may have had the opportunity to walk around the perimeter of this Building. I think that the Assembly Commission has adopted a similar policy here. You can see the range of wildflowers and grasses that are now growing on the front lawn, which used to be trimmed like a snooker table. It is far more attractive, and it is more effective for biodiversity than it was previously.

A Member

What about the weeds?

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Minister, will you therefore launch a campaign to promote the benefits of biodiversity with the wider public?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes. When my Department was developing this programme, we engaged with Ulster Wildlife, and we will continue to do so. A Member said, "What about the weeds?" Yes, there is a balance to be got in all of this, but I think that, when the public understand why grass verges are growing and that it is not simply, "There is no money. They are not doing it. See them politicians, you could not trust them", but is about protecting and encouraging the biodiversity, not only in rural but in urban settings, they will be behind us on it.

Kate Nicholl (Alliance, Belfast South)

T5. Ms Nicholl asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether he will commit to a renewed road safety assessment, including traffic calming measures to address speeding, of the Ballynahinch Road at Carryduff, on which there was a serious road traffic collision at the weekend. (AQT 185/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Again, another tragedy on our roads, and my deepest sympathies to the family of the man who lost his life.

The section office is looking at that spot to see whether there is a way to improve safety for pedestrians and other road users. There are challenges at it. I think that there is quite a narrow footpath, and there may be a challenge in relation to disability access etc, but the office has taken a look at that. Obviously, the PSNI will have to investigate the cause of the accident and do its duties. It will also provide us with a report at that stage, which my officials will also learn from, moving forward.

Kate Nicholl (Alliance, Belfast South)

Thank you, Minister. The incident that I was referring to was a young woman who did not lose her life. It was another accident, but it was very harrowing for the family, and I think that we need to look at how we improve all measures. I welcome the fact that you are looking at this.

On improving other connectivity within the area, specifically cycling, cyclists who travel from Carryduff to Belfast are very nervous. Is that something that you can look at improving too, please?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Apologies for mistaking the incident.

Yes. Obviously, promoting active travel is vital. I have a legal obligation and a moral obligation to promote it, and cycleways are an ideal way of doing that. It is like any change: sometimes they bring challenges, and you have to convince the communities who live along the route and other road users, and also sometimes you have to engage with landowners to bring forward new routes, new greenways or whatever it may be. So, yes, I am committed to doing that, and we will continue to work with local elected representatives and the local council to improve that.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

T6. Ms Flynn asked the Minister for Infrastructure for an update on the greenway scheme in west Belfast. (AQT 186/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

There are a number of schemes progressing in Belfast, and, again, some are at a more advanced stage than others. I will give you the detail of those. Design work is ongoing for the majority of schemes in the Belfast cycling network, with short-term lists for delivery by the end of 2025. Designs of schemes need to be thorough if we want to deliver the highest-quality active travel infrastructure. There are a number of schemes: for instance, at Ravenhill Road, Dublin Road and Botanic Avenue in south Belfast; Lagmore Avenue greenway in west Belfast, which the Member will be aware of; Island Street and Sydenham greenway proposals in east Belfast; Limestone Road, Cavehill Road and other connections from north Belfast into the city. Working in conjunction with local communities and the councils, I am confident that we can move all these forward.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Thanks very much, Minister. Does the Minister agree with me that the active travel initiatives have positive mental health benefits for people, as well as benefits for physical health?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Without a doubt, and that has been proven over and over again. In my opinion, health is a collective responsibility for the Executive. Understandably, much of the focus is on acute and primary care, but if my Department can assist in improving citizens' quality of life, there is more chance of their not needing acute or primary care. Improving people's mental health through active travel has been proven beyond doubt.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Belfast South)

Topical question 7 has been withdrawn.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

T8. Mr Buckley asked the Minister for Infrastructure whether he and his departmental officials, who must be gravely concerned, have reassessed potential initiatives to improve safety on our roads, given that, during Question Time, we have heard many examples of tragic incidents on our roads, particularly in 2024, with single-vehicle collisions causing the death of more than one person and with figures in 2023 showing 69 deaths on our roads compared with 55 in 2022. (AQT 188/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes, I hope to be able to bring a renewed road safety strategy to the Executive in the next number of weeks, or perhaps into next month. The Member is right to highlight the fact that there has been an increase in the number of lives being lost on our roads. There has been an increase not only in multiple fatality incidents but in incidents in which a single life has been lost. I appeal to all road users, be they drivers, cyclists, motorcyclists or pedestrians, to be conscious of the fact that every action that they take on the road will define their fate or somebody else's fate. If they take the wrong decision, they or somebody else may not go home.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister. Trying to ensure that we can minimise the number of such incidents on our roads is something on which the House is united. I particularly think of some of the very effective advertisement campaigns that the Department has had in times past that have shown the harrowing impact of unsafe driving on our roads. Has the Minister given consideration to increasing the number of such advertisements? There seems to have been a decline in them. I ask him to comment on that.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am discussing that matter with my officials. Unfortunately, owing to budget constraints, the very effective road safety adverts that were on our televisions have not been on as frequently. Part of the engagement that I have had with my officials has been to look at what the most effective advertising forum or platform is to use, particularly for young people who are very vulnerable on our roads as drivers, pedestrians, cyclists or whatever. Using a digital platform is probably the most effective way in which to do it. I am talking to officials about how we can launch an advertising campaign across social media to ensure that we are getting the message out to those who are most vulnerable on our roads.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T9. Mrs Erskine asked the Minister for Infrastructure, with trying to get an MOT appointment still an issue for the public, to outline a timeline for the introduction of the measures that he referred to on 11 March in the Chamber, when he said, "I have asked officials to bring forward for my urgent consideration options", including "the introduction of temporary exemption certificates" and "biennial testing". (AQT 189/22-27)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for her question. I intend to make a statement to the Assembly before the end of this month in that regard.