Northern Ireland Assembly, 8 November 2021

294 contributions from 54 members. The official report.

Speaker's Business — Youth Assembly

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Before we move to the business in the Order Paper, I advise the House that the Youth Assembly met on Saturday morning. Obviously, due to the restrictions that remain in place, it was not possible to invite all Members or many others. I put on record my very sincere gratitude and thanks to all our officials, who did a tremendously professional job to support those young people and the many family members who joined their youngsters here to give them some support. By all accounts, the day went very well and was very successful. It augurs well for the work that the Commission has authorised to proceed under the guise of the Youth Assembly. I intend to provide a full report to the House fairly shortly to keep Members up to date with how the Youth Assembly is progressing.

Members' Statements

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

If Members wish to be called to make a statement, they should indicate that by continually rising in their place. Those Members who are called will have up to three minutes to make their statement. Members are reminded that statements will not be subject to debate or questioning, that interventions will not be taken, and that I will not take any points of order on this or any other matter until the item of business has finished.

Aisling Reilly (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Our responsibility as legislators is to create conditions that are fair and equitable for all our constituents. My private Member's Bill to abolish hospital car parking charges is about creating fair and just outcomes for our health and social care workers, who are burdened with an unfair additional tax because of sky-high car parking charges at their place of work. No health and social care worker should be paying to park their car as they head in to their work to care for our sick and elderly.

My Bill to abolish hospital car parking charges seeks to create fair and impartial treatment for our rural communities, who are often cut off through distance and poor public transport. There should be no inequality in the treatment of any of our constituents, rural or urban, as they try to access the healthcare facilities and treatments that they might need. Hospital car parking charges are causing patients and their families additional stress and anguish that could easily be avoided.

My private Member's Bill will put money back in the pockets of workers at the end of each week. The pandemic has taught us that we need to do everything that we can to make the lives of our health and social care workers easier and worry free. The provisions of my Bill will give relief to patients who face a health crisis and their families who do not need to be worrying about their ability to pay to park their car just to be with their loved one. My private Member's Bill to abolish car parking charges will create fairness and equality, which is what we are all here in the Assembly to strive for.

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

Forgive me for not rising. I thank Members from across the Chamber for their very kind sentiments and messages on the passing of my mother; they were greatly appreciated.

The subject that I want to talk about today is the value of early intervention in health, the benefit of that to the health service and to patients and the benefit of patients being proactive in their approach to their own health. I will use myself as an example. Just over a month ago, I developed a small cut on one of my toes, which led very quickly to an infection in my foot. I was admitted, first to the Ulster Hospital and then the Royal Victoria, and I am thankful for the care that I received in both those establishments and for the skill of the surgeon who operated on me. On the first day, I was diagnosed as a diabetic, having previously been undiagnosed. That led to a much more rapid spread of infection. I required an operation on my foot, which resulted in the amputation of one toe and the removal of infected tissue. That has meant that, for the next number of weeks, I will be in a wheelchair. Important as that is, had it not been for the skills of the staff in those institutions, it could have been a lot worse.

Reflecting on my own role, although they may not have been glaringly obvious, there were some signs of potential symptoms. I took a slightly negligent route by ignoring them and, as a lot of us tend to do, saw things happening to me and put them down to age, which was wishful thinking. As politicians, we are often accused, on social media and elsewhere, of being two-faced or hypocritical. This is an occasion on which I hold my hands up and admit that I am saying, "Do as I say and not as I did". I urge people to learn from my situation: if they have a concern over the development of symptoms of any level, they should not simply dismiss them and be negligent. Instead, they should take early action, because doing so is of deep benefit to the health service through saved costs down the line. Furthermore, for anybody who is in that position, whether it is diabetes or any other potential issue, early action could be critical to the extent of any injury to you and may ultimately save your life. Therefore, I urge people to not, as I said, do as I did and instead to learn from my lesson and ensure that they do as I say. Make sure that you make that early intervention, see your GP, go to the minor injuries unit and get things dealt with at an early stage. If you do that, there will be better consequences for you and the health service.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Thank you, Mr Weir, for that. We all sympathise with you on your circumstances.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I associate myself with your remarks to Mr Weir.

Last night in Rathcoole, a bus was burnt out. Men, apparently in their 40s, entered the bus, intimidated the driver, directed him and burnt the bus out. We can assume that that act was based on the same set of broad political motivations as other acts of a similar ilk.

It is a tragedy but is perhaps not surprising given the inflammatory rhetoric that has surrounded the issue this year, particularly from the UK Government and certain unionist politicians. That rhetoric has to stop, and it has to stop now, as do the actions of those who think that they can subvert the democratic process by using violence. It is totally wrong and unacceptable, and, as I said, it has to stop now.

First, it is important to state that what happened to the driver and what has happened to other bus drivers is totally unacceptable. I stand in solidarity with the driver, who, I am sure, is traumatised, and another driver was traumatised last week. It is totally unacceptable for them to be left in this situation.

Secondly, the driver of that bus served working-class communities in areas like Rathcoole and the Shankill. The people there need to get to school, to work and to doctors' appointments. It is shameful that, as a political act, people think that boarding a bus, burning it out and depriving working-class people of public transport is any form of acceptable political protest.

I am afraid, however, that we have to be honest about the context in which that happened. It happened in the context of increasingly inflamed rhetoric over the protocol. There is a set of complicated arrangements to manage our unique position post Brexit. What is the rest of the context? The rest of the context is that multiple polls now show increasing support for that complicated arrangement because people here recognise that we are a complex place, and Brexit has placed us in a uniquely complex and compromised position, so we need arrangements to reflect that.

Is it perfect? No, absolutely not. Nothing about the way that this place is governed is perfect. Nothing about Brexit is perfect, but those who amp up their rhetoric and tell people that their constitutional position or their rights are being infringed on the basis of that protocol need to reflect on their language. They also need to reflect on the fact that the democratic process allows for representation in this Chamber and discussion and negotiation around protocol mitigations, which are already happening between the UK and the EU.

The actions of the people who boarded that bus and torched it were unacceptable —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Time.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

— and the actions of those who seek to increase provocation, use inflammatory language —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Time, Member.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

— and do things like trigger article 16 are, I am afraid, making this situation worse.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Following on from the remarks of my friend from South Belfast, I rise to raise the very concerning issue of the remarks made at the weekend by a senior EU diplomat:

"We are ready for peace but prepared for war."

The use of such language not only is outrageous but follows a pattern of language and rhetoric used by EU officials and the likes of some Irish politicians who should know better, including Leo Varadkar and Simon Coveney, who regularly use images of facilities destroyed in attacks by republican terrorists as so-called evidence to support their desire for the creation of the protocol. We have seen today that those are entirely counterproductive acts that have undermined support for the Belfast Agreement.

My party leader spoke directly to the EU ambassador to the UK, Maroš Šefcovic, Simon Coveney and the Taoiseach about that very issue. He also stated to senior EU diplomats face to face, as have some of us here, that they must be mindful of rhetoric and megaphone diplomacy, particularly when they bypass elected representatives in Northern Ireland. It is inflammatory, to say the least, for EU officials to make such remarks. What is required is rational, fully inclusive dialogue that recognises that, for many, the protocol is not working and does not enjoy the support of quite a few of us in our society, and it is progressively poisoning the body politic here. That has to be the starting point.

Maroš Šefcovic has the opportunity today to address those issues directly. All Members of the Assembly should join us in asking him to do so. The people of Northern Ireland need solutions to the many problems caused by the protocol and not heightened tensions and the use of warlike rhetoric.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am grateful for the chance to wish our colleague Mr Weir a full and speedy recovery and to address the issue of recurring violence in Northern Ireland.

I cannot condemn strongly enough the latest violence on the streets, including a bus hijacking and burning in Rathcoole, close to my constituency, on Sunday evening. I pass on my support to the driver and passengers who were on that bus. Understandably, they will be traumatised by that deeply disturbing act of violence. Such incidents bring fear to local communities and tarnish onlookers' image of Northern Ireland. They also seriously undermine the good work that is being done by good people at community level in Rathcoole and elsewhere.

Like other recent outbreaks of violence, the latest incident is reported to have been connected to dissatisfaction with the Northern Ireland protocol. It follows similar attacks only last week. Members will recall that there was also similar violence at Easter this year, the effects of which still affect the communities where those incidents occurred. There appears to be increasing violence since the expiry of politically imposed deadlines with regard to the Northern Ireland protocol and issues around it.

For the sake of all communities, it is now crucial that political leaders dial down the rhetoric and focus on solutions, rather than setting deadlines or issuing ultimatums. Often, when political speeches or actions raise tensions, those tensions spill over and affect people who are trying to get on with their lives in their local areas. There has never been a greater need for political leaders to work together for satisfactory outcomes, avoid hype and end the blatant destruction of public assets. Those senseless acts of destruction, which could lead to death or serious injury, should be called out on every occasion. They must cease. The hijacking and burning of a bus achieve nothing. What they do is terrorise and frighten people who are just trying to earn a living, get home to their families or go about their daily business. I urge anyone with any information on the recent attacks to contact the police, directly or through Crimestoppers, to assist the cessation of these actions.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I join other Members in offering my best wishes and condolences to our colleague Peter Weir.

Thirty-four years ago today, one of the most appalling acts of IRA terrorism took place: the Poppy Day massacre in Enniskillen. Today, I think of the families of the 11 people who were killed immediately and the family of Ronnie Hill, who died some 13 years later. In that context, I was utterly appalled to read the comments of the Secretary of State in an interview with the PA news agency at the weekend, when he proclaimed, in support of an amnesty, that Troubles deaths were different. Troubles deaths were murder. Murder is murder. Amnesty, sadly, is, therefore, validation of murder. I utterly condemn those comments. On this day, I join in sympathy and thought with the many who are grieving in the Enniskillen area.

Last night, we saw a totally different level of violent incident at Rathcoole. That was utterly wrong. Violence is self-defeating, although it comes from within the community of Northern Ireland that saw a reward for violence through the Belfast Agreement. However, it is wrong. It is clear to me that the consequential burden on unionist politicians, I include myself, to ensure that there is no room or vacuum for such violence, is to pursue relentlessly the dismantling of the iniquitous protocol, which has wrought constitutional change. The High Court has decreed that it is incompatible with article 6 of the Act of Union 1800 in its denial of unfettered trade and is, therefore, impliedly repealed. There is no point in people like Mr O'Toole pretending that it has not made the constitutional change that it has made. It has transferred lawmaking powers from the United Kingdom to a foreign jurisdiction that is overseen by a foreign court. Of course it has made constitutional change.

Fundamentally, the flames have now been fanned by the belligerent, bellicose utterances of an EU official, when he talked about being:

"ready for peace but prepared for war."

Some time ago, the EU was the party lecturing everyone about how an international agreement could not be breached. It now threatens to set aside an international trade agreement when someone says that they might exercise a power already in the protocol, that of article 16.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member's time is up.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The sooner that article 16 is activated, the better. Not that it is the whole answer —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member's time is up.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— but it would at least be a declaration of proper intent to defend the —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member's time is up.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— integrity of the United Kingdom.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Thank you.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

First, I wish Mr Weir well, and I add my condolences on the passing of his mother.

I raise the issue of the disgraceful, racist attack on a family in Portadown last night. A group of youths gathered outside the home of Florentina Dimache, her children and her husband, and racially abused the family. They threw stones and other objects at their property and told them to "Go home". Let me tell those who were behind that attack that Florentina Dimache was home. Her home is in Ballyoran in Portadown. That is where she lives with her family. That is where her children go to school. That is where she and her husband go to work.

Home would have been a much better place for those who were attacking the property, rather than out on the streets attacking a family at night, or at any other time. Ireland has a long history of people leaving these shores and establishing their home somewhere else, and we should recognise that. Those who were behind the attack obviously do not know the history of their community. That community has stood up to bigotry and sectarianism in the past, and it will not allow a group of individuals to terrorise or attack anyone in its midst.

I therefore appeal to anyone with information to bring it to the police. That same group of people has been involved in terrorising pensioners and other members of the community in the area. The fun is now over, and they have to be dealt with by the police. I commend the community groups, the youth workers, the Tir na nÓg GAA club, which is just around the corner from where the attack happened, and all who are involved in the improvement of our community in Portadown.

We have all tried to support that small group of people to divert them from what they are doing, but we can do no more, and it is over to the police to deal with them. I send this message of solidarity to Florentina and her family: we recognise that you are at home, we recognise you as a neighbour, and we want you to stay.

Deborah Erskine (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

First, I condemn those responsible for that attack and also those responsible for last night's attack in Rathcoole.

My good wishes go to my colleague Peter Weir during what is a difficult time for him.

I rise in memory of 12 innocent people who were callously murdered by the IRA 34 years ago on this day, 8 November 1987, while they attended a Remembrance Sunday service at Enniskillen cenotaph. Today, my thoughts are with the families of Bertha and Wesley Armstrong, Samuel Gault, Jessie and Kitchener Johnston, John Megaw, Edward Armstrong, Ronnie Hill, William and Agnes Mullan, Alberta Quinton and Marie Wilson for the pain that they will feel today and the pain that they have felt for the past 34 years, as they have waited for justice.

That day left many others with life-changing physical and mental scars. They lived, but their lives were never the same, with the injuries that they suffered being a daily reminder of the events of that day. The IRA targeted the victims while they gathered to honour those who fought to protect our freedoms. Thirty-four years on, the families have not received any justice against those callous and cowardly terrorists who carried out the atrocity. Closure comes in many forms, but, for many, it involves justice in a court of law. Lack of justice has made it more difficult for many of the families to move on. Today, with the Enniskillen victims in mind, I say to the Government that drawing a line under the past may be attractive to some, but, to the innocent victims to whom I have spoken, it is not.

Justice was corrupted on the day the prison gates were opened in 1998. Evil people were set free while their victims still suffered. Justice was corrupted when Sinn Féin and Tony Blair dreamt up the get-out-of-jail-free cards. To ever deny any victim access to justice is the ultimate insult to those who have suffered the most. I know that, as time passes, so does the chance of justice. However, allowing murderers to stop looking over their shoulder is not right on any level. It has taken us backwards, not forwards. It is immoral and flies in the face of the rule of law. Today, we remember the Enniskillen bomb victims. Today, we speak up for justice.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I take the opportunity to sympathise with Peter Weir on the death of his mother. I offer my sincere sympathies to Peter and the rest of the family. I also wish Peter a good and fulsome recovery.

I will speak about social security appeal tribunals. For those of us who have been at a tribunal, they can be traumatic and stressful for individuals. Indeed, many of the people that we represent — and some go on their own, which is even more difficult — have mental health issues, anxiety and troubles. It can be a very emotional and stressful occasion for them. The social security appeal tribunals are starting to resurrect themselves post COVID and post the difficulties and problems that we had in organising them. We have discovered that, especially for personal independence payment (PIP) and disability living allowance (DLA) appeal tribunals — DLA being for children — they have to prepare five copies of their medical records for the tribunal. It can be very difficult for anyone to get all that, and it can also be very expensive. Many of the people who are there with us, or on their own, have very limited means, so that in itself is a difficulty — how it is done, but also the cost of it being done. The people who are often on the lowest incomes are facing a surcharge to get their case heard at those social security appeal tribunals.

I wish to put that marker down here — I wish to raise the matter publicly — because anyone going in there on their own will find that extremely difficult. Many people with anxiety, even if they are represented, will find that to be a traumatic occasion as it is, even though the chair and panel members are very understanding and respectful of those people and their issues. Certainly, the imposition of further financial difficulties on people with limited resources needs to be put on record. I will be raising it with the Minister for Justice.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I will speak on behalf of the thousands of people across Northern Ireland who regularly experience migraines and yet have no protection under disability legislation. Migraines are a form of severe headache that can often be debilitating for sufferers. Around one in five women and one in 18 men are affected by migraines, usually beginning in early adulthood. The condition can prevent people from carrying out their normal activities, such as work or parental responsibilities, whilst common symptoms include nausea and vomiting. A migraine can seriously impact a person's life, often leaving the sufferer incapacitated and alone in a quiet, dark room.

In the rest of the UK, when the condition is frequent and severe, migraines are recognised as a disability under the Equality Act 2010. However, as the vast majority of that Act does not apply in Northern Ireland, migraine sufferers here are afforded no protection, as we remain governed by the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. Whilst its definition of a disabled person is similar to that in the Equality Act, it is more prescriptive and, in practice, excludes those with migraines. That means that the rights of an employee who regularly has migraines are effectively denied.

If an employer treats them less favourably as a result of their disability, there is no means of redress, and, under our current law, an employer is under no obligation to make reasonable adjustment by, for example, making a quiet room available. A person may be forced to struggle on for fear of dismissal.

The Alliance Party recognises that, for the past 10 years, people with disabilities here have not benefited from the enhanced protections that apply in the rest of the UK. That is why, for many years, my party has advocated a single equality Act for Northern Ireland. As Deputy Chair of the Ad Hoc Committee on a Bill of Rights, I have spoken with many organisations and activists, including those representing people who live with a disability, and it is clear that we have a lot of work to do on rights in Northern Ireland. A bill of rights is important work, but the road to equality would not end with its introduction.

As we approach our next mandate, we should all reflect on how we can best improve the lives of our constituents. With that in mind, I urge the next Executive to make an equality Bill a priority, not least for those who suffer from severe migraines.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

When I say that the Minister for Infrastructure presides over a crisis in our road network in South Down and across the Newry and Mourne area, I am not overstating the scale of the problem. The sum of £15,000 might seem like a lot of money, and it is, but in terms of what it gets you for road resurfacing, it is minuscule. It gets you about 3 feet. That is how much officials in the southern division have to spend on any resurfacing job, otherwise they would fall foul of the legal action over procurement that the Department has got itself tangled up in. That is really farcical, to be honest.

The road network in South Down and Newry is crumbling into disrepair. If anyone in the House thinks that I am exaggerating for effect, let me give you an example of the type of situation that we are dealing with. A family from Burren contacted me to say that, when they were bringing their young child home from hospital by ambulance, the hospital had to contact the PSNI, which had to cordon off Milltown Street in Burren so that the ambulance could avoid the myriad potholes and sunken manhole covers in order to get the child home safely. If I were the Minister for Infrastructure, I would be utterly ashamed to preside over a situation such as that.

My constituents deserve to know what the Minister and Department will do to end that farce. When will the people of South Down be assured that the Department has got to grips with the situation? Frankly, my constituents and the people of South Down deserve so much better.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I wish Peter Weir, who is my colleague and friend, all the best, although he has left the Chamber.

In the light of the recent whistle-blower investigation in the 'British Medical Journal' that revealed evidence of falsifying data in pivotal Pfizer COVID vaccine trials, the Health Minister should make a statement to the House on the action he can take to assuage the concerns of people who have taken the Pfizer vaccine.

I applauded the vaccine roll-out, but, somewhere along the way, I have witnessed the narrative change from one of promotion and encouragement to one of bullying and coercion, not least with the threats of mandatory vaccine and domestic COVID vaccine certification, that has created hesitancy and a deep distrust of Governments. The Health Minister should make a commitment in the House to abandon any plans that he may have to impose mandatory vaccines on workers and certification to discriminate against people that would prevent them using hospitality and services. At the very least, he should publish the evidence that demonstrates the positive health outcomes from both those measures.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I am very grateful because I know that we are over time, so I will not use too much of it. I extend to my colleague Peter Weir my deepest sympathies on the death of his mother and thank the Members of the House who have been in contact with me over the death of my wife's grandmother. May was a wonderful person, and we will miss her very much.

I want to discuss damp in Housing Executive properties. A home is somewhere where we should be comfortable, safe and feel protected in order to raise a family or live together. Yet, the experience of so many people not just in the city of Belfast but throughout Northern Ireland is one of having homes that are below standard and are absolutely riddled with damp. How often can all of us here testify to hearing the old refrain that comes when someone is sent out from the Housing Executive or housing association that it is simply condensation or mildew? How often have people who live in homes the walls of which are black with damp been told, "You need to open a few windows"? That is totally unacceptable in a modern society. Therefore, I flag up the issue.

Given the council area that the Minister for Communities and I represented and the constituency that we represent, I am certain that she could regale the House with stories similar to the ones that I relate. I take the opportunity not to hector or to try to score points but to flag up the issue and to encourage the Department to take a much closer look at it and to have more proactive involvement. In this day and age, people should not be living in homes like that.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That ends the time for Members' statements.

Assembly Business

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

I beg to move

That this Assembly takes note of the proposed changes to the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 as set out in the draft Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2021.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Business Committee has agreed that there will be no time limit for the debate. The proposer will have up to five minutes to propose the motion and up to five minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have up to three minutes.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 make provision in relation to the flying of flags at government buildings on specified days. Under the Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000, the Secretary of State has the power to make and amend such regulations. However, in doing so, the Secretary of State is required to refer draft proposed regulations to the Assembly. The Assembly must then report to the Secretary of State the views expressed in the Assembly during the debate on the proposed regulations by the date specified by the Secretary of State. That is the process. The Secretary of State has a duty to consider the Assembly's report and may amend the proposed regulations as a result of the report before laying the regulations for approval by resolution of each House of Parliament.

The Business Committee was made aware that the Secretary of State had written to the Speaker on 13 October 2021 advising that he intended to make three amendments to the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000. The initial date provided for the Assembly to report on its views was 27 October 2021. However, as that did not take account of the period of recess over Halloween, the Speaker requested that the deadline be extended. Subsequently, the Secretary of State extended it to 11 November. The Business Committee agreed to schedule the motion today to facilitate the Assembly in making its views known in time for a report to be provided to the Secretary of State by the later date.

The first of the proposed amendments will provide that the Union flag need not be flown on a designated day relating to a member of the royal family who has died. That will prevent the flag being flown in circumstances where there is not enough time to amend the regulations to address that occurrence. The second of the proposed amendments relates to plans following the death of the monarch and will allow for the Union flag to fly at full mast on the proclamation of a new monarch. The current regulations do not make that provision. The final proposed amendment removes His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh's birthday on 10 June and Her Majesty The Queen's wedding day, 20 November, as designated days, although 20 November will remain as a designated day for this year.

A copy of the proposed regulations was circulated to all Members last week and is available in hard copy in the Business Office. The Business Committee did not take a view on the proposals. Instead, in line with previous practice, the Business Committee agreed to table today's motion to create an opportunity for Members to consider the draft regulations. The Official Report of the debate will record the views expressed in the Assembly on the proposals.

I will now speak as a DUP MLA. We all know that death is an unavoidable part of life. The regulations and the preparations for the passing of our beloved monarch are necessary. It is important that the proper process is in place for that eventuality and the subsequent proclamation of our new king in what will be a time of immense sadness and mourning in our nation and across the world for a remarkable woman, her strength of character, her life that was led as an example and her historic reign.

Nevertheless, we trust that we are making the provisions far in advance and that it will be some time before they are necessary. In the interim, we wish Her Majesty a speedy recovery from her recent ill health. On this side of the House, we continue to pray with heart and voice that, in the words of the national anthem, she is:

"long to reign over us. God save the Queen."

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I rise to speak as a party representative, as opposed to a member of the Business Committee. I am conscious of the sensitive nature of the proposals outlined and their intentions and consequences.

I want to put a few notes on record. The flying of flags is clearly a sensitive issue in this society and can cause division. It can also be used to promote and honour someone, and we acknowledge that. There have been several attempts to bring in a process that all sections of our society can buy into. Unfortunately, those attempts have failed thus far. We have seen the latest version of that in the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition (FICT) process, though I accept that that might not have impacted on buildings such as this Building.

The proposals have come forward from the NIO and the British Government, who have failed to recognise the parity of esteem element of the Good Friday Agreement and to ensure that all in our society have a recognition and a buy-in and can see that their identity is honoured and protected in the symbolism that surrounds them. The NIO and the British Government have failed miserably at that. That has to be pointed out to Brandon Lewis. It is also worth noting that, in recent days, we have learned that the DUP is blocking a strategy for Irish language at the Executive. The British —

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I will, but I do not wish to get into a wrangle about it.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Nor do I. I will try to say this in the most sensitive way possible. This year, the party opposite refused to allow the placing of a stone in the grounds of this Building to commemorate the centenary of Northern Ireland, an event about which he and I disagree but that is important to a lot of people. The party opposite refused to light up the Building for the same event, while Downing Street was lit up. Again, I appreciate that the Member has a different view of the centenary from mine. The party opposite refused to allow so much as the planting of flowers in the grounds of the Stormont estate. I take the Member's view that people should be represented and that their identities should be treated with respect, but so should mine.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not wish to be diverted, because that might test the patience of the Ceann Comhairle. The mistake with the stone was that —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member has an extra minute.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

— the Member's party and other unionist parties brought forward a proposal and said, "This is how we are going to mark the centenary". There was no engagement with the national or republican parties in the Chamber at any stage about how to mark that event. If you want to tell someone why this state failed, the stone is a classic example. You came forward with a proposal and said, "We are doing this. It is nothing to do with you". If you had come to us and said, "We want to have a discussion about this", we could have come up with something. That is a different debate.

My point is this: the legislation on languages and identity that the Secretary of State was supposed to bring through Westminster has not been brought forward either. Those are important milestones that the Secretary of State has to reach to ensure that parity of esteem, as outlined in the Good Friday Agreement, is reached.

As I said at the start of my contribution, I am conscious that the royal family is a very important institution to many in this society. I note that the changes being made today relate to sad events in the past and future events that will also be sad. I do not wish to become embroiled in a dispute about that, but the Secretary of State has to step up to the mark in providing parity of esteem.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I am responding to the motion on behalf of the Alliance Party and do so as a party representative, not as a member of the Business Committee.

I begin by paying tribute to Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, who, alongside the Queen, had a strong interest in Northern Ireland and played an important role in building relationships and promoting reconciliation across Northern Ireland. Prince Philip also had a positive impact on many of our young people through their participation in the Duke of Edinburgh's Award scheme.

Amendments removing Prince Philip's birthday and Her Majesty The Queen's wedding day from the list of designated days for the flying of the Union flag are necessary arrangements that unfortunately need to be made. It is also a sad but important task to prepare for the death of a monarch, and the introduction of the further regulations will ensure that we are prepared for that sad moment.

The Alliance Party's policy on flags is well known by all in the Chamber and beyond. We will continue to support the flying of the Union flag on designated days, which is, in my personal view, a balanced position, respecting the current constitutional status of Northern Ireland and equality obligations. The Alliance Party stands for a shared society. We know that Northern Ireland works best when we acknowledge that views on issues such as flags, emblems and identity are complex and show respect for one another in discussions on those matters. Our stance on designated days is well known. We will continue to support them, and thus we support the regulations today.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I speak as a member of the SDLP, not as a member of the Commission. The regulations are not an unreasonable adjustment to the existing regulations. Nonetheless, as Mr O'Dowd said, they were done on a solo run by a previous Secretary of State, Peter Mandelson, and do not conform to the true spirit of paragraph 5 of the Good Friday Agreement.

We should encourage the use of emblems and symbols in public spaces to promote mutual respect and understanding, not to cause division. I hope that, through the publication of the FICT report, if it is ever published, we will see some work being done to improve understanding, so that we do not, as Séamus Mallon once said, poke each other in the eye over such matters. We have heard in recent days that what the public are most interested in is this place working together in the interests of all to tackle our waiting list crisis, housing and our economic COVID recovery. Let us hope that we can all turn our minds to those things, because, for too many years, it has been about poking each other in the eye.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The updating regulations were, of course, brought about because of the sad intervention of the death of the much loved Duke of Edinburgh and, looking forward, because of other changes in the royal family. The Secretary of State makes the regulations, and I want to put it on record that it is a matter of regret to me that he does not adopt and follow in this part of the United Kingdom the flag-flying policy that exists across GB.

The Assembly Commission has the discretion to include additional days for this Building. To me and to those whom I represent, it was a matter of regret and insult that, in the centenary year of Northern Ireland, the Assembly Commission did not have the grace to accede to the flying of the Union flag on one of the dates that mark the centenary: the original May date or the date of the first sitting of the Northern Ireland Parliament. Instead, we had the belligerent refusal of respect, which, as was mentioned, also manifested itself in the refusal to date of a centenary stone and even a rose bush in the gardens of Parliament Buildings.

I say to the Secretary of State that he should take the opportunity to include, as a standard day every year, a day to mark the centenary of the creation of Northern Ireland. That would be fitting and necessary to make good on the affirmations of the Secretary of State and the United Kingdom Government of their belief in and desire for Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom.

Why is our centenary not one of the dates marked in the annual calendar in respect of the flying of flags on public buildings? We know why it is not in this Building — because of the bigotry of Sinn Féin — but the Secretary of State has a responsibility to right that wrong by including that day in the regular regulations that apply.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I call Robbie Butler to conclude and make a winding-up speech. The Member has five minutes.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank all the Members who contributed to the debate. I intend to be brief in my conclusion.

The Business Committee's intention in tabling the motion was to give Members an opportunity to express their views on the proposed amendments to the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000. The Business Committee has not considered the proposals, and nor has it taken a view on them. As previously detailed, the Secretary of State wrote to the Speaker on 13 October 2021, asking that the Assembly consider the draft regulations. Following a request from the Speaker to extend the deadline, the Secretary of State asked for the Assembly to provide a report of its views by Thursday 11 November 2021. Consequently, in order to meet that deadline, the Business Committee was required to ensure that the Assembly had an opportunity to debate the proposals today.

Members have now had a chance to set out their views, and I do not intend to run through them again. The Official Report records those views. The Business Committee has been advised that you, Mr Speaker, will send a copy of the Official Report to the Secretary of State, who may then choose to amend the proposed regulations before laying them for approval by resolution of each House of Parliament. On behalf of the Business Committee, I ask all Members to support the motion.

I will speak briefly on behalf of the UIster Unionist Party. I echo the continued support and best wishes at this time for the speedy recovery of our monarch, Queen Elizabeth. I also pay tribute to Prince Philip, who selflessly supported and served the Queen, the royal family and, indeed, the United Kingdom throughout most of his life. The death of the Duke of Edinburgh brought a focus on the need to bring the regulations forward. I am also aware that the population of not only the UK but the world has become very much accustomed to the fragility of life during the COVID pandemic.

I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly takes note of the proposed changes to the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 as set out in the draft Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2021.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I invite Members to take their ease for a moment while we prepare for the next item in the Order Paper.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Stalford] in the Chair)

Ministerial Statement

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I have received notice from the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, Mr Edwin Poots, that he wishes to make a statement. Before I call the Minister, I remind Members in the Chamber that, in light of the social distancing being observed by parties, Mr Speaker's ruling that Members must be in the Chamber to hear a statement if they wish to ask a question has been relaxed. Members participating remotely must make sure that their name is on the speaking list if they want to be called. Members in the Chamber must also do this but may do so by rising in their place as well as notifying the Business Office or the Speaker's Table directly.

I remind Members to be concise in asking questions. This is not an opportunity for debate, and long introductions will not be allowed. In accordance with long-established procedure, points of order are not normally taken during a statement or the question period afterwards.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to talk to the House about the recent accreditation of Glenarm Forest as Northern Ireland's first Queen's Commonwealth Canopy (QCC) project, in which Northern Ireland will join a pan-Commonwealth network committed to saving one of the world's most important natural habitats: forests.

The QCC is a unique global network of sustainable forest conservation projects that involves all 54 countries of the Commonwealth in conserving and protecting forests for future generations. I am delighted to announce the successful accreditation of Glenarm Forest as Northern Ireland's first QCC project, which I had the privilege to launch on 25 October 2021 at Glenarm Forest. I also had the privilege of planting an oak tree there after a stiff walk up one of the glens.

Being part of the QCC requires a clear commitment to forest conservation objectives. The accreditation recognises that Glenarm Forest is now dedicated to sustainable forestry and its role in contributing to people's well-being and the enjoyment of the community now and for the generations to come. The accreditation of Glenarm Forest as a QCC forest is an ambitious 350-hectare initiative that will result in an increased opportunity to link people with the forest, create woodlands and promote the sustainability of woodlands for social, environmental and recreational tourism that will act as a catalyst for economic benefits for the area.

Glenarm Forest is ideally situated in the wider Glenarm Castle estate with its rich cultural history and historic woodland. The estate is steeped in a wealth of history, culture and heritage and attracts 100,000 visitors annually from all over the world. At the event, invited guests were able to savour the significance of the accreditation and the wonderful forest setting. The accreditation of the QCC initiative at Glenarm Forest is a result of innovative collaboration and partnership working between DAERA's Forest Service and Glenarm estate, with substantial contributions from a wide range of external and internal stakeholders.

As I mentioned, QCC forests are dedicated to conservation for communities and future generations. I very much welcome the participation of local people in developing the project. I acknowledge the work and support of those involved in achieving this accolade, in particular, Glenarm estate, Mid and East Antrim Borough Council, local community groups, staff and students from Seaview Integrated Primary School and the Glenarm QCC forest working group. The QCC forest project will help to raise awareness of the importance of forests to society and encourage landowners to plant woodlands in line with my Department's Forests for Our Future programme to plant 18 million trees by 2030.

The announcement of this achievement for Northern Ireland, highlighting the importance of conserving and protecting forests on a global scale, is particularly timely, with the UK hosting the twenty-sixth UN climate change Conference of the Parties (COP26) in Glasgow from 31 October to 12 November 2021. That significant summit aims to accelerate action towards the goals of the Paris agreement and the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.

The purpose of the statement is to recognise, rightly, the recent accreditation of Glenarm Forest as Northern Ireland's first QCC project. I am delighted for Northern Ireland that Glenarm Forest has joined the QCC network to conserve and protect forests for the benefit of communities and future generations. It creates a physical and lasting legacy of the Queen's leadership of the Commonwealth.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. He will know that, in the past, the island of Ireland was the most forested part of Europe, but, unfortunately, we now have the dubious distinction of being the least forested part. Some great initiatives are taking place at Dunmoyle and Altmore in my constituency; indeed, most recently, there are proposals on the table for Seskinore Forest.

Will the Minister outline what role the forest at Glenarm and, indeed, any other forest developments across the North can play in promoting and protecting biodiversity here?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Forests can become monocultures and not assist biodiversity, and that is why we need things that will help develop biodiversity. As we seek to tackle climate change, it is important that we ensure that biodiversity goes hand in hand with that and that we have a wide range of biodiversity. For example, Northern Ireland has far more hedgerows than probably anywhere else in the world — it certainly has the most across these islands — and that is a major asset to our biodiversity and for birds and other wildlife. It is something that we promote.

We have set a target of planting 18 million trees by 2030, and we have made a significant start on that. It is getting real traction out there and is being responded to positively. This is another boost for us, and having a forest here that has Queen's Commonwealth Canopy recognition enables us, as part of the Commonwealth, on the one hand, to demonstrate our thanks for the work of Her Majesty and, on the other hand, to do something for the future. That is why we are planting trees from which all our community can benefit.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement to the House. Does he agree that the initiative by Her Majesty further demonstrates the royal family's appreciation of nature, the need to tackle climate change and, indeed, the need to protect our environment?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Absolutely. His Royal Highness Prince Charles got a lot of criticism in the 1980s, but he was way ahead of his time on a series of issues. More recently, Prince William and Princess Kate led on the event that recognised things that people were doing to help our environment, and I was delighted that local people were identified for their work on renewable energies. We can be well placed, whether through tree planting, renewable energies or a series of other things, to do the right thing on the environment in order to ensure that we leave this world that we entered in a better state environmentally. That is a real goal for all of us.

Rosemary Barton (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. You referred to Glenarm Forest as Northern Ireland's first Queen's Commonwealth Canopy project. Do you have other locations identified for that project?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

This is the first. We are capable of applying for more. It is not an easy thing to achieve, and a considerable amount of work therefore has to be done to ensure that we are successful. We have been successful with this one, and I am happy that that is the case. We will look positively at whether we can identify other places that may be suitable and then work with the royal household to bring forward further Queen's Commonwealth Canopy projects in Northern Ireland.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for the information provided in the statement. In addition to the issues raised around the canopy scheme — we welcome the good news for the scenic town of Glenarm — are schemes such as those that try to address the provision of trees in urban streets being looked at? I ask that because, coincidentally, when the statement was first scheduled, a colleague on Belfast City Council raised the issue with me as a way of increasing forestation in our urban areas.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We have had a decent response from the councils, or some councils. I believe that Belfast City Council, for example, wants to plant one million trees, which would be hugely beneficial for the lungs of the city. I am supportive of the work of the councils. When it comes to streetscapes, DFI is obviously the lead Department, but, if there is anything that I can do to assist with such schemes, I will be happy to do it. Tree-lined streets really set a city off. The more of those we can have in Belfast or any other city, the better.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his statement. It was encouraging.

Minister, I take the opportunity of congratulating Ballysillan Primary School in my constituency, which recently received the Queen's Commonwealth Canopy tree for the city of Belfast. Along with a deputy lieutenant, Mr Dawson Stelfox, and some pupils, I was privileged to be involved in planting that tree.

As the chair of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association in Stormont, I welcome the announcement. It is great to see Northern Ireland joining the rest of the Commonwealth in such an initiative. Can the Minister outline the benefits that the initiative will have for the area around Glenarm and east Antrim in terms of the environment, tourism and, indeed, the local community?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Glenarm Castle currently receives about 100,000 visitors, and the forest is open for people to visit. When we take a run up the coast road, I would say, a lot of us have the habit of just driving through Glenarm, not realising that it is an absolute pearl of a location to stop at. I hope that the initiative will be a major incentive for Glenarm to be a go-to destination, not a drive-through destination, and that many hundreds of thousands of people will use that facility, not just 100,000.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Glenarm forest is a popular local asset, and the scheme will improve and enhance it to the benefit of locals and, indeed, those from further afield. I welcome the accreditation of the Queen's Commonwealth Canopy scheme. Many have been involved in the project, including the Glenarm Castle estate, councils, community groups and Seaview Integrated Primary School. Can the Minister advise what role his Department played? Can he give any pointers to others who might want to consider such a scheme for their local forest?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The idea was brought to me, and I suggested it to the chief executive of the Forest Service, John Joe O'Boyle — a citizen of the glens, by the way — who embraced it and took it forward. It was taken forward and led by the Department. All of the other organisations were brought in to assist with the project, and we were grateful to all those who participated. It was great to see the schoolchildren from Seaview Integrated Primary School planting a tree alongside the one that I planted. That was a demonstration of good cross-community working in that area to do something that will be of real benefit to the area. Having all the players involved would be critical for any other area that might want to take forward such a scheme.

Maurice Bradley (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his statement to the House. Minister, bearing it in mind that Northern Ireland is still one of the least tree-covered areas in GB or Europe, will the project protect ancient woodlands in the area and lead to increased woodland cover?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Yes. One of the things that will happen is that some of the coniferous trees in the woodland will be removed and broadleaf indigenous trees planted. That will lead to not just new planting but an enhancement of the existing woodland there. There is significant work to be done to ensure that it will be a quality facility and a quality woodland that will be around not for the next 20 years but for many hundreds of years.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Minister, I join Members in welcoming the Queen's Commonwealth Canopy accreditation for Glenarm Forest, which is in the constituency of East Antrim. I also acknowledge the number of visitors who go there and who will enjoy the forest many years into the future. Glenarm stands in stark contrast, however, to the situation at Woodburn Forest, which is also in East Antrim, where trees were removed to facilitate a futile attempt to explore for oil close to the public water supply; indeed, concern remains for the replacement trees at Woodburn, which are far from thriving. What action will you take, Minister, to protect and expand all our forests across Northern Ireland?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The issues at Woodburn predate my period as Minister. I would welcome any correspondence the Member might wish to contact me with. At this point, I have not received anything from him about Woodburn.

We have set out our target of 18 million additional trees being planted in forests across Northern Ireland. That is no small thing. Organisations are working extremely well with us. One of them is Northern Ireland Water, which may be criticised for other things, but, for what it is doing in planting trees and on renewable energy, I have to give it high praise, because its work is tremendous.

We have a course of work on forests. Over my period as Minister for the environment, we have invested considerable additional money in more trees and in the Forest Service. It is now a policy direction, and I hope that whoever holds the office in future decades will carry on with it.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I welcome the accolade and the opportunity for Glenarm. On a somewhat related matter, 'New Decade, New Approach' ('NDNA') ushered the Minister back into office. Amongst its many promises was reference to a project that it grandly titled the "Great Ulster Forest". What has become of that project? Indeed, what is it?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The "Great Ulster Forest" was never perceived to be one wood or one forest; it was to be a series of wooded areas across Northern Ireland. Of course, the work we have commenced on tree planting will greatly assist us in delivering on that NDNA commitment, and, indeed, we are working on it.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I am glad to see projects like this one receiving support. Does the Minister see afforestation having a role as part of the support for a just transition for many farming families?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Yes. I welcome the Member's seeking a just transition, and I hope he will help us to ensure that there is a just transition and will not be persuaded to do something different by people who do not understand agriculture.

On afforestation, we are looking at how we can support people to plant riparian boundaries and to plant out woodlands in areas that are not used as much on the farm so that the woodlands will have the least impact on the farm's production. There will also be opportunities for people to make the switch from food production to forestry, and we have supported people who have done that. It is about working with people in the agriculture sector to ensure that they get the right fit for what they do.

We must — all of us — ensure that we support our rural dwellers and, in doing so, support the agriculture community, which has contributed so much over the years to jobs, well-being and, indeed, the health of our environment. It has so much more to contribute. Farmers are not the environment's enemy but its friend. We should therefore not be the enemy of farmers.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

No other Members have risen in their place or indicated to me that they wish to ask a question, beyond those who already have.

Assembly Business

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I have been advised that no statement is available in relation to the British-Irish Council meeting. We will therefore move on, following a 15-minute suspension. Hopefully the Infrastructure Minister will be able to join us at that point.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, as Chair of the Committee for Infrastructure, I place on record that it is unacceptable that Members are in the House to hear a statement from the Infrastructure Minister and yet, to date, we have not received that statement, never mind that the business of the House has been impacted by a delay in that statement coming before the Assembly.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member has placed his remarks on the record, and they will be there for all time for everyone to see. It is important that all Ministers, regardless of their party affiliation, provide advance notification of the content of ministerial statements. That is a courtesy to the House. As I said, the Member's remarks are on the record.

The sitting was suspended at 1.16 pm and resumed at 1.33 pm.

Executive Committee Business

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

I beg to introduce the Support for Mortgage Interest etc (Security for Loans) Bill [NIA 42/17-22], which is a Bill to provide for loans under article 13 of the Welfare Reform and Work (Northern Ireland) Order 2016 to be charged on land and for the charges to be registrable in the Statutory Charges Register.

Bill passed First Stage and ordered to be printed.

Committee Business

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move

That, in accordance with Standing Order 33(4), the period referred to in Standing Order 33(2) be extended to 28 January 2022, in relation to the Committee Stage of the Adoption and Children Bill.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Business Committee has agreed that there should be no time limit on the debate. I call the Chairperson of the Committee for Health, Mr Colm Gildernew, to open the debate.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Adoption and Children Bill passed its Second Stage on 5 October 2021 and was referred on for Committee Stage the following working day. The purpose of the Bill is to reform adoption law in the North, to implement the proposals in the Adopting the Future strategy that require primary legislation and to amend the Children (NI) Order 1995 to improve outcomes for looked-after children and young people who have left care.

The Bill is large, with 160 clauses and five schedules. It is disappointing that the Committee has very limited time to consider such a detailed and large Bill. That is on top of scrutinising another five, possibly six, Bills. The Committee has received a number of written responses to the Bill and will begin oral evidence sessions on 25 November. As I mentioned previously, the Committee seeks the extension due to the extremely heavy workload that is in front of it and the size of the Bill. That workload means that the Committee must meet twice weekly in order to be able to consider all the evidence for those Bills and get them through Committee Stage before the end of January 2022. The Committee therefore requests an extension to 28 January 2022. That proposed extension would allow us as much time as possible for detailed consideration while balancing the consideration of other Bills. I commend the motion to the House.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Thank you, Mr Gildernew.

It has been brought to my attention that, at present, we do not have a quorum in the Chamber. I see that there are only seven of us: the magnificent seven.

Notice taken that 10 Members were not present. House counted, and, there being fewer than 10 Members present, the Principal Deputy Speaker ordered the Division Bells to be rung. Upon 10 Members being present —

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That, in accordance with Standing Order 33(4), the period referred to in Standing Order 33(2) be extended to 28 January 2022, in relation to the Committee Stage of the Adoption and Children Bill.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Members may take their ease for a few moments before we move on to the next item in the Order Paper.

Private Members' Business

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I beg to move

That the Second Stage of the Education (Curriculum) (CPR and AED) Bill [NIA 38/17-22] be agreed.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

In accordance with convention, the Business Committee has not allocated any time limit to the debate.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to address this packed House

[Laughter.]

I accept that it is lunchtime, and Members will note that the business has been changed around today.

In opening the Second Stage debate on the Bill, I pay particular tribute to the efforts of those who helped with its drafting, namely Fearghal McKinney and Denise McAnena from the British Heart Foundation (BHF). I also thank Clare and Melissa Doyle, a mother and daughter who spoke so powerfully at our public 'Listen In' event about their experience of CPR and its capacity to save lives.

In the past few hours, a group of students from St Mary's High School in Downpatrick has been in the Long Gallery learning those critical life-saving skills. Even some MLAs and party support staff have attended, such is the importance of the training. I thank my fellow MLAs Robbie Butler and Chris Lyttle, who co-sponsored that event for me.

Five and a half years ago, I rose in the Chamber to make my maiden speech. The issue in hand then was illegal drugs. It was, and remains, my view that government has a crucial role to play in ensuring a joined-up approach to that issue. In the matter of drug prevention, education was key. I mention that by way of an introduction to the Second Stage of the Education (Curriculum) (CPR and AED) Bill, because, although it is indeed a health matter, it remains my firm view that education has a critical role to play.

The statistics are clear for all of us to see, and they are shocking. There are 1,400 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in the North each year, and fewer than one in 10 people will survive. Let us put that into perspective by looking at the Chamber. If we 90 MLAs were all to have a cardiac arrest, only nine of us would survive. That is what the numbers say.

Women are less likely to survive an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, because, across the world, they are less likely to receive CPR from a bystander. We therefore have a gender-based difference in out-of-hospital cardiac arrests. Studies from two years ago show that survival from the time of cardiac arrest to admission to hospital was 34% among women and 37% among men. From admission to discharge from hospital, the survival rate was 37% of women and 52% of men.

If we have learnt anything over the past two years, it is that our health service is a very precious thing. There is a duty on all of us to ensure that it is not overwhelmed. Those in our health service walk a fine line between ensuring its stability and its falling into chaos.

Of the 1,400 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests each year, 80% take place in the home. We know that our Ambulance Service plays a critical role in our health service, and it does so admirably, but it is stretched to its limit. If we look in particular at many rural areas in the North, including my constituency of South Down, we see that there have been many instances of individuals tragically dying because the ambulance simply could not reach them in time. That is not said to criticise the work of the Ambulance Service. Rather, it is said simply to illustrate the real pressure on our health service at this moment.

Each of us will agree that something deep-rooted in Health needs to change. Anything that we can do to ease the pressures on the service will be of benefit, whether that is preventative health care; active travel initiatives, such as those the Infrastructure Minister is bringing forward; or training a new generation in critical life-saving skills so that we are not totally dependent on an already stretched Ambulance Service when someone has a cardiac arrest.

In seeking to introduce this Bill, I looked at the example set in countries across the world. The examples are numerous, but the one I will focus on is that of Denmark. In 2005, Denmark launched a national effort to teach its residents to perform CPR to save people who suffer a cardiac arrest outside of hospital. The effort included mandatory training for elementary-school students, making it mandatory for drivers to learn those skills when applying for a driving licence, distributing instructional training kits, offering telephone guidance to bystanders and placing AEDs in more public places.

A study published in the 'New England Journal of Medicine' looked at out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in Denmark between 2001 and 2012. In that period, the out-of-hospital cardiac arrest numbers remained stable, but the percentage who survived to 30 days increased from 3·9% to 12·4%, with recipients of bystander CPR more likely to survive to that 30-day threshold. It is particularly interesting that the rate of bystander CPR increased from 66% to 80% and overall mortality decreased from 18% to 8%.

When we look at cardiac arrest, there is a further implication that must be considered, and that is the level of oxygen that gets to the brain. In the moments when someone has a cardiac arrest, every second that the brain loses oxygen is precious. If CPR is not administered and an AED is not accessible within three minutes, there will be a substantial lack of oxygen going to the brain, and that is called hypoxia. If CPR is not administered and an AED is not accessible within four minutes, that will cause anoxic brain injury, which is a total lack of oxygen to the brain. The resulting damage is potentially irreparable, so that, even should the patient recover from the cardiac arrest, they will potentially be left in a coma. Even if the patient is resuscitated, the hypoxia may have caused damage to their temporal lobe, causing memory loss. They may suffer muscle contractions, incontinence, impaired speech, changes in personality and further disorientation.

The result is someone who needs expensive additional care for much of their life, and all because a trained responder was unable to get to them within three minutes. The ripple effect of a cardiac arrest, and the precious time we have to respond, is extensive. However, the medical study that I referenced also discussed that issue. When looking to Denmark, the authors found that the risk of anoxic brain damage or nursing home admission was also significantly lower in those who received bystander CPR. The authors wrote that their finding:

"underscores the need to implement or improve strategies that help bystanders initiate CPR and strategies that facilitate public access to automated external defibrillators."

Before I return to the Danish example, it would be remiss not to note when discussing the provision of AEDs that the inventor of the portable AED was Professor Frank Pantridge, a Northern Irish physician and cardiologist. He has been called the father of emergency medicine, and he is surely someone that we can rightly pay tribute to.

Back to Denmark. Between 2006 and 2011, the number of registered AEDs in Denmark increased from approximately 3,000 to nearly 15,000. In Copenhagen, an AED registry was formed in 2007 which established a platform to register the location and accessibility of AEDs. The registry was expanded nationwide in 2010. That may all seem very technical and removed from our experience. However, it is actually practised in the North right now, in the beautiful seaside tourist location of Newcastle, in my South Down constituency.

Following the tragic death in 2017 of a local resident who had been struck by a car and died before an AED could be administered, the local Lions Club began a campaign to fundraise and purchase an AED so that that type of incident would not happen again. That incredible example of local grassroots community action resulted in the purchase of not one, two or three but 10 AEDs for the town, making it possibly the safest place in Ireland, should you require an AED. As in Denmark, there are local volunteers who register, monitor and organise the replacement or repair of the AEDs, should it be necessary.

A local community achieved that in under three years. While Members have just been treated to a science lesson in cardiac arrest, I do not want to move into a history lesson except suffice to say that those threatening to collapse these institutions should look at what can be achieved in under three years. Think of the lives that have been saved as a result and ask yourself honestly what those lives are worth to you.

I have given the raw statistics, and they speak for themselves. When we introduce CPR training and AED awareness to as many people as possible, the direct and indirect consequences are that we ease the pressure on our health service, reduce the number of people waiting for a hospital bed and, for those who would potentially have to adjust to a life in care in a care home, that is prevented and mental health is supported. Most importantly, though, we save lives.

The question is this: what are we to do? In bringing forward the legislation, I gave prior notice to the Education Committee and presented the Bill to it. I met Minister McIlveen and spoke to her about my intention to bring forward the Bill. I have witnessed phenomenal cross-party support, and I recognise that and express thanks to my party colleagues, who could not have been more supportive, and to all the parties I have engaged with so far, which have fully supported the intention of the Bill.

I say the "intention" because I appreciate and understand that, for the Minister, the outworking of the Bill is something the Department may struggle with. We are talking about introducing a mandatory element to our curriculum, and I appreciate that some are not comfortable with that. In saying that, I recognise that the Minister has issued a notice to all post-primary schools that it is the Department's expectation that those schools will all deliver CPR training through the curriculum at Key Stage 3. I applaud and welcome that. It is an important step, but, while it may be a step for the Department, it is not the giant leap we need. Politics is so often transitory. If we should see a future Education Minister who does not see things as the current Minister does, that expectation could be rolled over and we could be back to square one.

Further to that —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Yes.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I just want a little clarification. It is quite clear that, under article 7(2) of the 2006 Order, the Minister could by order do what the Member is looking for. Are you saying that there has been a refusal to do that? Would that not be a quicker route than the legislative one, which compels that which the Minister may be willing to do?

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Member for his intervention. The easiest way to put it is that, in working with the previous Education Minister — not to talk about somebody in their absence, but I will do it anyway — we were not making much progress with ministerial intervention to deliver it. The new Minister has introduced the request to schools to carry out this measure, but it has no legislative base. The Bill would provide the legislative base so that, regardless of who the Education Minister is, this skill must be taught in schools. It is that difference between its being asked for and its being a definite legislative requirement.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give away again?

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

If I really must.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Article 7(2) of the 2006 Order is pretty clear:

"The Department may by order specify, in relation to an area of learning and pupils in a key stage, such minimum content as it considers appropriate."

So, if the Minister is persuaded by your argument, she could do it by an order. Is that not correct?

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Thank you, Mr Allister. The keyword is "may". This Minister may, but the next Minister may not. If we put it in legislation so that a Minister must, it means that it will take place. That is different from its being an option. I applaud the current Minister for picking up the mantle and introducing this training in schools, but that could be reversed by a future Minister. If we have it in legislation, it cannot easily be reversed. Legislation would be required to undo what we are doing today.

Further to that, in preparing the legislation, consultation with the teaching unions has been carried out. I have not heard whether it is the Minister's expectation that that is being delivered, but, from my work with the unions, I know that they are happy that this would be included.

Allowing an opt-in system, even one that will form part of ETI inspections, remains just that: an opt-in system. Therefore, the Bill that I seek agreement on recognises and welcomes the step by the Education Minister, but it makes a leap that we need. In many ways, the two complement each other, and I hope that the Minister is able to support the Bill today. Should it pass this stage and eventually be enacted, it will mean that every part of these islands will have mandatory CPR training and AED awareness in schools. That would be greatly welcomed.

We all know that schools are stretched as it is. The needs of our children and young people are complex. Cognisant of that, I carried out an extensive eight-week consultation with the public to gain views on the Bill. The findings are as stark as the statistics that I have quoted in relation to cardiac arrests.

Nine hundred and eighty-three individuals responded to the online consultation. The respondents ranged from students of school age to parents, grandparents, guardians, school staff, medical professionals, sporting officials, and beyond. I will detail some of the responses to the survey in case any Member has concerns about the public's view of such a Bill.

Of the 983 responses, 963 think that it is important for young people to have knowledge of CPR skills and awareness of AEDs by the time they leave primary education; 979 think that it is important for young people to have knowledge of CPR skills and AEDs by the time they leave post-primary education; 903 think that pupils in post-primary schools should receive the training once a year, every year; 964 feel that the Government have a responsibility to ensure that that training is provided; and 929 feel that CPR training and AED awareness is as important as academic subjects or more important.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

That is a good point at which to suspend this item of business, because we have two minutes until Question Time to the Executive Office commences at 2.00 pm. Once we finish Question Time, the Member will be the first Member to speak when the debate resumes. Members, please allow for a change at the top Table.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — The Executive Office

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Questions 6, 7, 13 and 15 have been withdrawn.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

1. Mr Muir asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether consideration is being given to reopening the Travel Agents (Coronavirus) Financial Assistance Scheme 2021. (AQO 2664/17-22)

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

12. Mr Frew asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether all payments from the Travel Agents (Coronavirus) Financial Assistance Scheme 2021 have been paid out. (AQO 2675/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will answer questions 1 and 12 together.

The delivery of the Travel Agents (Coronavirus) Financial Assistance Scheme is now complete. It paid out £1·2 million of support to our travel agents who faced losses as a result of the pandemic. Payments have been made to all applicants who met the eligibility criteria of the scheme. The scheme was one element of a wider support package that was provided to businesses. An unprecedented range and volume of financial support has been provided throughout the COVID-19 period since March 2020. That has all been aimed at preventing businesses from closing and protecting as many jobs and livelihoods as possible.

While no consideration is being given to a further specific scheme for travel agents by TEO, the Executive have funded in full the Department for the Economy's comprehensive economic recovery action plan for this financial year. The Executive have also agreed the COVID recovery plan, which is designed to accelerate economic, health and societal recovery in order to deliver sustainable economic development for all.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the deputy First Minister for her response on the support for travel agents. The ability to travel safely around Northern Ireland is paramount. Will the deputy First Minister join me in condemning the hijacking of yet another bus last night, wishing the driver and passengers well and a speedy recovery from the horrendous incident, and calling for the rule of law to be upheld throughout Northern Ireland?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for his question. I absolutely concur with everything that he said. The burning of buses is totally unacceptable, whether it is in Newtownards, Rathcoole or anywhere else. I am sure that everybody in the Chamber wants to send our thoughts to the bus driver involved and those people who were also taken off the bus. It is dangerous and reckless activity, and it should be condemned by everybody across this society. There can be no going back. Today, we need calm and steady leadership. We need less sabre-rattling and more political leadership to ensure that that type of activity does not happen on our streets.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

There is no doubt that the money was very slow in getting to the people on the ground who needed it, not least the travel agents. Minister, what discussions are taking place with our sovereign Government in order to reassure travel agents and travellers that they will not be unnecessarily impeded from travelling and leaving these shores?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

A range of meetings is happening between our local Ministers and Ministers in Westminster. We also engage regularly with Scotland and Wales to try to find common ground on travel, particularly in relation to the common travel area. We understand that that sector has been really hard hit. The tourism sector as a whole has been really hard hit. I am glad to say that we have been able to support businesses somewhat. Obviously, we always want to do more, but, unfortunately, that is not always within our capacity. I am glad to say that we have reached out to over 165 travel agents who were able to avail themselves of the scheme and that money has all been paid out. A number of applications are perhaps still being assessed, but I am glad to say that that support has got out to the industry. We need to look at how we can help that industry going forward.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Why is the financial support for travel agents the responsibility of the Executive Office rather than the Department for the Economy?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I welcome the Member to her new role as TEO Committee Chair. I look forward to working with her.

The Executive Office took forward the scheme at a time when that sector was left out of every other scheme that had been developed. Sorry; it is unfair to say that. It was able to avail itself of a range of other supports that were offered. However, in this case, travel did not necessarily sit under the other Departments, and the Department for the Economy refused to bring forward a scheme, so the Executive Office stepped in to bring that forward.

Pádraig Delargy (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the joint First Minister for her update on the scheme. Can she detail what other support has been made available to the sector?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thanks for the question. As the Member and everybody else in the Chamber knows, we brought forward an unprecedented number of interventions and packages of financial support over the COVID pandemic period, particularly from March 2020. That included the delivery of business-related support that has provided more than £500 million of much-needed funds to support local businesses in all sectors and all occupations. Our primary aim was to help those businesses survive the pandemic and to protect as many jobs as possible.

On the specifics of the Member's question, some travel agents, as I said, were able to avail themselves of other schemes. We had the £10,000 small business support grant scheme, of which some were able to avail themselves; the £25,000 retail, hospitality, tourism and leisure grant scheme; the localised restrictions support scheme; the micro-business hardship fund; and, more recently, the COVID restrictions business support scheme. My colleague the Minister of Finance made available further top-up payments of £5,000 and £10,000 for businesses that had received grants during the first lockdown, and travel agencies operating in retail premises also benefited from the 100% rates holiday for 12 months, which was extended to the 2021-22 financial year.

We understand how challenging a time it has been for the wider economy, and the reverberations from that will no doubt be felt for years to come. We, as an Executive, are committed to making sure that we can protect the most vulnerable and are determined to drive forward the recovery plan, which will help to accelerate growth in our economy, as well as health and societal recovery.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I join the deputy First Minister in condemning the attacks on buses in Rathcoole and Newtownards. Will she join me in condemning the EU official who was quoted as saying that they are:

"prepared for peace but ready for war"?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Anybody who holds public office needs to be very careful about the language that they use. I note that the comment to which the Member refers is not attributed to anybody, so I do not where it came from. Language of that nature is not appropriate in any shape or form.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

2. Mr Dunne asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, further to the Historical Institutional Abuse inquiry report recommendations, for an update on contributions from six institutions toward the cost of the historical institutional abuse redress scheme. (AQO 2665/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The First Minister and I hosted a round-table discussion on 14 October with representatives of the six institutions identified in the Hart report as being responsible for systemic failings and asked to make appropriate contributions to the overall cost of the historical institutional abuse (HIA) redress scheme. The focus of the engagement was to progress discussions on contributions, seeking support from all representatives for a fair and equitable approach. The conversation was constructive and forward looking. The work will be taken forward at pace, with separate bilateral discussions with the respective institutions already under way. That is being led by our independent facilitator, Paul Sweeney.

Victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse have our full support. We are determined that they will receive the acknowledgement, support and redress that they deserve for the pain that they have lived with over many years. Acceptance of responsibility from all concerned and recognition of the harm caused are both crucial in helping victims and survivors to move forward with their lives. We have made good progress in the last year with redress payments being made to victims and survivors. We must continue the momentum towards the full implementation of the outstanding recommendations in the Hart report, including those on the contributions from the institutions.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the deputy First Minister for her answer. Can she provide an update on the review of the compensation process, as announced in July this year, to try to speed up the application process for survivors of such abuse and their families?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thank you for your question. I cannot remember whether I previously welcomed you to the Chamber. I just want to say that you are very welcome. I had a good working relationship with your father, and I hope that we can also share a good relationship.

You will be aware that, on 5 July, a motion was passed in the Assembly calling for a review of the redress process, and I was able to respond to that motion at that time. Eighteen months on, I support the importance of examining the experiences of the redress process and making improvements that are identified as being needed. Our officials have held a series of engagement meetings with the victims and survivors groups to discuss the terms of reference for the review. The draft terms of reference were shared with the groups for consideration in late October, followed by a short series of meetings and calls with key groups' representatives before the terms of reference were put to Ministers for approval.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Why have the victims of HIA still not received a public apology, and where do the blockages lie in that regard?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said in my initial answer, it is crucial that we continue to make progress on all those things, all of which are interlinked. I am pleased to report that significant progress is being made across the range of key recommendations. However, in consultation with the Commissioner for Survivors of Institutional Childhood Abuse (COSICA), officials are working on the proposals for the content and timing of a public apology, which builds on our understanding of the importance of approaching an apology with care and sensitivity and which roots it in the experience of HIA victims and survivors.

An apology project group has been established and is operational. The group discusses practical arrangements, with a focus on ensuring that victims and survivors are supported before, during and after the apology has been made. A number of engagements with representative groups took place during September and early October, and it is fair to say that those engagements were challenging but very constructive. Officials have also arranged meetings with representatives of the six relevant institutions and the Departments that were referenced in the Hart report. The engagements with the groups highlighted the need to consider how the review of the HIA redress process sits alongside apology delivery. It is our intention to work towards a timely apology being given to victims and survivors, and that means that Ministers can engage with victims and survivors in person in an appropriate and, most importantly, meaningful way.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for her comments on the apology in particular. Will she update the House on the work on historical clerical child sex abuse?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have information today only on the work that we are doing with the institutions. We have been engaging with the six institutions, which are Barnardo's, the De La Salle Order, the Sisters of Nazareth, the Sisters of St Louis, the Good Shepherd Sisters and the Irish Church Missions. I am really pleased to say that that work has been progressing well, but none of these things can be divorced from each other. The members of victims groups, who have been hurt in different ways or, perhaps, by different organisations, are watching what is happening across the board. I will provide a more detailed answer to the Member in writing.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

A lot of very powerful and wealthy institutions are responsible for institutional abuse. What legal powers do the Northern Ireland Executive have to compel such institutions to compensate victims?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We hope that we can get goodwill and that those institutions will work with the Executive. That work that is under way at the moment. I am glad to say that our independent facilitator is working with each of the six institutions individually, following on from the larger group meeting that we had. It is important that we get people to buy in to the fact that they have a responsibility to respond, with financial redress as well as the apology and everything else by way of support services. That very focused conversation is happening, and we expect to get a read-out of that over the next couple of weeks, after which we can progress to the next stage. I hope that we never have to reach for legal powers, but, if we do, so be it. I hope that we do not do that to victims and survivors and, certainly, that the institutions do not force us to do it.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

3. Mr Buckley asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what support is provided to those bereaved following the loss of a victim of a Troubles-related incident. (AQO 2666/17-22)

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

9. Ms Kimmins asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on discussions with the British Government regarding funding for the Troubles permanent disablement payment scheme. (AQO 2672/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will answer questions 3 and 9 together.

In relation to support for the bereaved, the First Minister and I are extremely sympathetic to the issues that affect bereaved victims and survivors, and we are very keen to address their needs and to acknowledge the ongoing loss that is felt by many people. We were delighted to be able to announce the reopening of the Victims and Survivors Service (VSS) scheme for bereaved victims in April, meaning that new VSS clients are able to access financial support. As of 27 October 2021, payments have been made to 3,470 individuals, 686 of whom were new clients.

In addition to that financial assistance, all victims and survivors have full access to the frameworks of services and supports that are designed to meet needs in relation to psychological therapies, persistent pain, disability support, education and training, and advocacy. We are committed to ensuring that the needs of all victims and survivors are met as part of the forthcoming new strategy for victims and survivors, and the needs of bereaved individuals will be fully considered as the strategy is developed.

In relation to the request for an update on discussions on funding for the victims' payments scheme for permanent disablement, it remains our shared view that adequate funding for the duration of the scheme should come from Westminster. In response to the NIO's refusal to contribute towards the funding of the scheme, the Finance Minister, on behalf of the Executive, commenced the dispute resolution process that is set out in the statement of funding policy. The process is ongoing, and no final decisions have been taken by Treasury. The Finance Minister will continue to make representations to the Treasury on behalf of the Executive in relation to the funding of the scheme. However, our argument remains clear: the NIO designed the scheme and legislated for it. The scheme that it designed was significantly broader in scope than what was agreed in the Stormont House Agreement. It has therefore imposed additional costs on the Executive that the NIO and the Treasury should cover.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

The Minister will be acutely aware of the hurt and distress that delays to the payment have caused to victims of Troubles-related incidents. Will the Minister assure the House that no further delay is anticipated for new applicants coming forward? Will she update the House on the progress of appointing a victims' commissioner?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

On the first point, I am glad to say that, despite our ongoing conversations with the Treasury, we have secured £19 million for the 2021-22 financial year. We have also established the £6·7 million set-up costs, so there is no delay in that whilst we pursue the dispute resolution process with the Treasury.

I am glad to say that we are making progress on the appointment of a new commissioner. The recruitment process is well under way. We expect a new commissioner to be appointed in the next three months. In the meantime, we recognise that continuity is important for victims and survivors, and we have ensured that interim arrangements are in place with the commission to allow the provision of continued support. The service will also continue to deliver its services to victims and survivors, which are tailored to individual needs.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the joint Minister for her update on the victims' payments scheme. Does the Minister agree that the British Government are not only reneging on their responsibilities for that scheme but continuing to renege on their responsibilities in regard to a legacy process for victims?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As the Member knows, in December 2014, a way forward for dealing with legacy was agreed by the main parties, the Irish Government and the British Government as part of the Stormont House Agreement. For the last seven years, the British Government have reneged on their commitments and blocked progress towards the establishment of the agreed legacy mechanisms. Victims have raised their concerns time and time again, yet the British Government remain tone deaf. Their proposals have been rejected not only locally by victims, NGOs and political parties but internationally by UN experts and the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights. The publication of the British Government's Command Paper in July was, without doubt, another slap in the face for victims. The Command Paper was rejected by the parties in the Chamber and by victims and survivors. Ultimately, it is all about delivering an amnesty for state forces, and the British Government proposal represents a full-frontal assault on the legal process and the administration of justice. If enacted in legislation, the proposals will place a statutory bar on the work of the Police Ombudsman and seek to halt inquests and civil cases. Members should be alert to the far-reaching implications of such decisions. In the interests of victims, the British Government need to bin their Command Paper, and we need to get back to the implementation of the Stormont House Agreement.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

The SDLP is on record as supporting a payment for bereaved families and survivors of the Troubles. It is my understanding, Minister, that the demand for the health service to access records is putting a huge drain on resources, particularly in mental health. Has that been brought to your attention as an additional financial requirement across health?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thanks to the Member for bringing that to my attention. If you can stick an email into the office, I am sure that we can look into that and establish whether it is in fact the case.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

From time to time, the deputy First Minister proclaims empathy with the hurt of victims, and, in the context of the hurt of IRA victims on the thirty-fourth anniversary of the horrendous Poppy Day massacre in Enniskillen, I have a fairly straightforward question that touches on the hurt of IRA victims. In the eyes of the deputy First Minister, was the attack in Enniskillen a terrorist attack?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

First, I acknowledge the human hurt and pain that were caused to all families who lost a loved one during the conflict, including all those who lost a loved one in Enniskillen. I absolutely sympathise with their loss. Across our entire community, each of us knows people who have lost a loved one and have suffered through grief. As I often say, all mothers' hurt and pain is the same. We live in a different Ireland now, and our focus should be on working together to ensure that the tragic events that happened in the past never happen again and that there is never any return to conflict.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

4. Mr G Kelly asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on their discussions with the Irish and British Governments and the European Union regarding post-Brexit arrangements. (AQO 2667/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

A Cheann Comhairle, with your permission, we will answer questions 4 and 7 together. Junior Minister Kearney will answer the questions.

Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

We continue to represent our respective positions in our engagement with the British Government and the EU to seek the best possible outcome for our citizens and businesses. Maroš Šefcovic met the leaders of the main political parties here in October, following the publication of the EU non-papers. The joint First Ministers met David Frost and Brandon Lewis, the Secretary of State, on 26 October to receive an update on their ongoing discussions with the European Union, during which they stressed the need for certainty and the importance of involving our officials in technical discussions aimed at developing solutions. It is intended that a further meeting will take place this week. Our officials also regularly engage with officials in the Irish Government to discuss matters of mutual interest.

The Executive remain committed to meaningful and timely engagement with the British Government and the EU to ensure that both are fully aware of the impacts of any solutions proposed and how they will work in practice for our community.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. The protocol provides necessary mitigations and protections against the negative effects of Brexit, and it is clear that many businesses now benefit from access to both the European and British markets. In the light of the comments, which the junior Minister mentioned, from the European Commission vice president Maroš Šefcovic about his talks with the British Government, can the Minister elaborate on the current situation?

Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhalta as a cheist. The Member will know that the protocol recognises the special status of this island and, in particular, this region. Its purpose was to prevent a hard border, to safeguard jobs and the all-island economy and, crucially, to protect the Good Friday Agreement. Significantly, as the Member mentioned, it also provides unique dual-market access for local businesses, manufacturers and our agri-food sector to the British single market and the European single market.

Yes, I am concerned after hearing Maroš Šefcovic say on Friday that he has seen no move from the British Government towards finding solutions on the smooth implementation of the protocol. He made comments about the British Government's potential triggering of article 16 to seek the renegotiation of the protocol, and that would have serious consequences and should ring alarm bells across the House, particularly at a time when the clear and unequivocal message from Members across the House, local businesses, the manufacturing sector, our farmers and wider civic society is about the need for stability, certainty and solutions.

The conduct of this British Government throughout the negotiations has been duplicitous and disgraceful. They have shown absolutely no regard for any of the citizens or any section of our society in the North or, indeed, for the democratically expressed wishes of the Assembly. I was struck by the comments of the former British Prime Minister John Major on Saturday. He said that —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Minister's time is up.

Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

— the triggering of article 16 is likely to have a price for all our society and that the approach being taken by the British Government towards the negotiations has:

"all the subtlety of a brick".

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, multiple polls have shown increased and increasing support for the protections provided by the protocol. The EU has published substantial and substantive proposals on easing mitigations.

[Interruption.]

I see that that is a cause of amusement for the First Minister. Leaving aside the actions of a small minority and the increasingly vocal and ramped-up rhetoric from some in the House, has a single business group or trade union asked the Executive Office to support the triggering of article 16?

Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhalta as an cheist a chur. No; in fact, our officials have advised that matters such as the European Court of Justice — the latest dead cat thrown on the table by the British Government — have not been raised with them. The Member mentioned it: recent polling carried out under the auspices of Queen's University and, more recently, the University of Liverpool indicates that there is general pragmatic contentment with the protocol and a recognition of its necessity.

Of course, as the Member and I will recognise, we would much rather not have a protocol, because we would much rather not have Brexit. The protocol was put in place to mitigate the worst effects of Brexit. We are dealing with a society that is adapting to the reality that we have the protocol. Our focus needs to be on ensuring its smooth implementation. The majority of people here accept the need for the protocol, and the tracking indicates that that trend will continue to grow in the time ahead.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Interestingly, the research from the University of Liverpool showed that very many people in Northern Ireland — indeed, the majority — want no barriers between Great Britain and Northern Ireland so that there are no barriers across our United Kingdom.

It has been estimated that the protocol has cost us £820 million so far. Will the junior Minister tell us why we are insistent on not calling out the EU for its intransigence as well?

Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I thank the Member for his question. Unlike some in the House, I take the view that we need to ensure that both the British Government and the European Commission and European Union work with us in a collegial way to ensure that there are no barriers to trade east-west or west-east and there should be no impediment to ensuring that local businesses maximise all of the opportunities provided by the British and European single markets.

I am sure that the Member is aware of this, but it is notable that, during the course of this year, INI has recorded 50 live enquiries from prospective foreign direct investors interested in investing in the North of Ireland. That compares with an average of something in the region of 22 expressions of interest a year between 2017 and 2020. We have work to do together to ensure that we reduce friction in trading issues and opportunities and that our businesses are poised to maximise the opportunities that are available to them in the time ahead.

As we are exchanging figures and statistics, I am sure that the Member is aware that the Office for Budget Responsibility now estimates that, on emerging trends, Brexit will cost the British state more than the pandemic.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Members, that ends the period for listed questions. We will move on to 15 minutes of topical questions. Question 3 has been withdrawn.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

T1. Mrs Dodds asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what the deputy First Minister, who will know and acknowledge that Her Majesty The Queen is much admired across the community in Northern Ireland, will do to ensure that, in 2022, Her Majesty's platinum jubilee, a remarkable event in her historical long service to the people in the kingdom, is recognised and rightly celebrated. (AQT 1741/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I will, of course, respect all those in our society who support the monarchy, and I will certainly respect their right to celebrate such an occasion. We in the Executive Office have had no discussion about the role, if any, that the Executive might play, but I absolutely support everybody else's right to support something. As you might expect, I am not a monarchist, but I respect those who are, because it is important to them.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

That kind of "mea culpa" from the First Minister — "it is not for me to decide or discuss" — just will not do. Her Majesty is an exceptionally important figure across Northern Ireland. We want to see her remarkable record of service celebrated and acknowledged. I accept that it is probably early days, but will the deputy First Minister commit to discussing in the Executive Office and, indeed, the wider Executive the establishment of a fund so that local communities can celebrate the platinum jubilee in a way that is fitting?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am happy to have conversations with anybody at any time, and this issue is no different from any other. I have met Queen Elizabeth. I have referred to her as "a very pleasant lady". She has played a significant role in and made a contribution to building the peace and, in particular, to building relationships between our two islands. That has been crucial, and I absolutely want to recognise that. It is early days, but let us have a conversation. I will be happy to do so.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

T2. Mr G Kelly asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether the deputy First Minister agrees that stable political institutions are essential as we continue to navigate our way through the pandemic and seek to hold our economic and social recovery. (AQT 1742/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes, I absolutely do. We have a way to travel to get to the other side of the pandemic, and we certainly have a huge task ahead of us in rebuilding our economy and helping workers, families and communities to face the challenges ahead. Our power-sharing institutions are crucial to all that.

The scale of the crisis that we faced with COVID was unprecedented. It impacted on almost every aspect of life here and necessitated a cross-departmental response in these institutions and across the island. That will undoubtedly be the case going forward and will, like stable power-sharing institutions, be critical and essential to our economic and social recovery.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagra. We are still in the midst of a global health crisis that has cost thousands of lives here and, indeed, throughout the world. Our communities and economy have faced unprecedented upheaval, while our health service remains under intense pressure. Clearly, stable and secure political institutions are necessary to face all that as we go forward. Does the Minister agree, then, that the irresponsible rhetoric that we have heard from the DUP leader translates on our streets into disgraceful attacks on police and the burning of buses? In the context of what the passengers on the buses had to go through, the driver who was threatened and the cars that have been burnt, is it not utterly irresponsible for DUP Ministers to boycott the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) while their party leader threatens to collapse the institutions?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member. All political leaders need to reflect carefully on the impact of their words and, indeed, their deeds. As I said, the burning of buses in Newtownards and Rathcoole and the threats made to the bus drivers were absolutely irresponsible and reckless. Some of the rhetoric that we have heard, particularly in relation to the protocol, is completely reckless. It is dangerous and often bears no resemblance to the reality that we all face. It is utterly appalling that we now see the dialling-up of the rhetoric and language translated into violence on our streets, where we have seen attacks on buses in the last number of weeks.

I am also conscious of the fact that there has been a deliberate strategy to bring those tensions into interface areas to heighten tensions even further. That approach is disgraceful and unacceptable. The DUP should not only condemn the violence but stop feeding the narrative that enflames and even encourages it. The unlawful boycotting of the NSMC is part of that, and so are the repeated threats to the institutions and the constant incitement in relation to the protocol. This is a time for responsible leadership and an end to reckless and damaging rhetoric, but it is also a time for calm and responsible leaders to step forward to reduce tensions and ensure that there is no escalation of violence on our streets.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

T4. Mr Dickson asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, in light of the fact that, last week, the Government announced funding for a community prosperity fund, which will be a pilot for the Shared Prosperity Fund that is to replace the European social funds in Northern Ireland, whether the deputy First Minister considers the way in which the fund has been operated to be a complete and utter slight, not only on her Department but all Departments in Northern Ireland. (AQT 1744/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thank you for that question. I do. That fund is one of a cohort of funds that are now being delivered directly. For a start, it undermines devolution, and it is not being delivered in tandem with our Programme for Government, the work that we are doing around recovery or our strategies and plans. It is unfortunate, to say the least, that that is the way it is happening. For example, how can we deliver a more prosperous and enhanced economy if funding through the block grant is continually reduced to put money into side pots that do not reflect the priorities that we have identified or the plans that the parties in the Executive have collectively brought forward?

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Given the deputy First Minister's response, how do the Executive plan to deal with applicants for funding? How do you intend to balance that funding between the organisations that the Assembly distributes funds to, particularly when the Executive has no say in the design, policy or direction of the fund?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Therein lies the problem. We do not have the ability to input into those schemes. The Finance Minister has taken that up directly with the Treasury on behalf of the Executive. He is working with his counterparts in Scotland and Wales, who face the scenarios that we face. We have to continue to challenge it. While, obviously, we always welcome funding, it has to be identified and spent on the priorities that we agree on collectively, not on things that somebody in Westminster decides on. We will remain focused on resolving that and finding a way to bring those things back under our decision-making powers.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

T5. Mr Buckley asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, in light of the fact that, interestingly, throughout Question Time, the deputy First Minister has talked about reckless and damaging language and the need to dial down the rhetoric, whether the deputy First Minister can explain how the words of the Sinn Féin President, Mary Lou McDonald, at the party’s ard-fheis, when she crassly declared, “the days of Fenians need not apply are over”, chime with the unionist outreach mantra that we hear much about from Sinn Fein in the media and in the House. (AQT 1745/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I have said to the Member before, as such a young man, he should be more focused on the future than he is on the past —

[Interruption.]

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

You are avoiding the question.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Patronising, too.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

He should be more interested in working with like-minded young people on these Benches to build a better future —

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Will you answer the question?

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

— trying to heal the wounds of the past, to build bridges that have been broken down —

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Like Mary Lou?

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

— and to look very much towards the future. I am future-focused. Society wants change. It wants to see progressive legislation tabled in this place. It wants to see an end to blockages. It wants to see us building a better society for everybody. The sentiment expressed by you and your party around "no nationalists need apply" does not wash. We are not going backwards. It is not 1969; it is 2021.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

It is not 1969, so I will bring the deputy First Minister back to 2012. When referencing discrimination, did the deputy First Minister or, indeed, Mary Lou have a word with her colleague, Conor Murphy? In 2012, he became the only Executive Minister ever to be found guilty of discrimination on the basis of religion, which, in that case, was against a Protestant. The tribunal said that, during Mr Murphy's time as Regional Development Minister between 2007 and 2011, there was:

"a material bias against the appointment of candidates from a Protestant background".

When it comes to representation on public bodies, are the days of "No Protestant need apply" over in Sinn Féin?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I repeat the words of my predecessor, Martin McGuinness: we have to govern by treating every citizen equally.

[Interruption.]

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order, Members.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It is not just about the citizens whom you represent but about all of our citizens. I encourage you to start looking towards the future instead of harking back to the past.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

T6. Mr McNulty asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what the joint First Minister will do and say to ease the pain of the families of the disappeared, given that, last Tuesday, All Souls’ Day, the families of the disappeared walked silently to the steps of this place, albeit no one from the joint First Minister’s party attended because that party continues to cheerlead the shadowy figures who abducted, tortured, murdered and secretly buried those loved ones, to lay a wreath and flowers in memory of their loved ones whose remains have been lost for decades — their annual All Souls’ Day walk shows respect, honour and reverence for their dead family members whose souls remain lost and continue to haunt the families. (AQT 1746/17-22)

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Are those families living in the past?

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I support all families in their quest for truth and justice. I want us to very much build on what has happened in the past. We have to help our society to heal if we are to be successful in moving to a better future. That includes all those who have lost a loved one. Our entire community suffered so much during the conflict. It is important that all of us, as political leaders, work together to build a better future. That includes getting closure for families and anyone who lost a loved one in the conflict.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I spoke to Oliver McVeigh on All Souls' Day last week. His brother Columba was abducted on Halloween night so many years ago. What will you, as joint First Minister, say to Oliver McVeigh? What will be done to ensure that his brother's remains will be found and given the dignity of a Catholic burial? What will you commit to doing? No more platitudes like, "We can do better. We can work together". What will you, as joint First Minister, do to give that man and his family some peace and peace to the families of the disappeared?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I would like your party to join me in ensuring that we have the full implementation of the political agreement that was devised by all parties and the two Governments: the Stormont House Agreement. That was agreed back in 2014, but here we are today and it still has not been implemented. The only closure that the British Government are interested in is covering up their role in the conflict. It is incumbent on all of us to build a better future. I will play my part, but that is a collective responsibility.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I call Jim Allister. There will not be time for a supplementary.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

T7. Mr Allister asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what message the deputy First Minister thinks that she has sent today to IRA victims by her refusal to say that the Enniskillen bombing — a massacre — was a terrorist act, and why would innocent victims not conclude that she and her party continue to endorse and justify that brutal, vicious, hideous murder and all else that went along with it. (AQT 1747/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said in my earlier answer, I acknowledge the hurt and pain that has been caused across our society. We are all obliged to build a better future and to help to heal the wounds of the past. However, the Chamber is not the place for inflammatory language from supposed grown-ups —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Was it a terrorist attack? Yes or no?

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

— like you and many others. Those who have engaged in recent weeks and months and perhaps even longer, in the Brexit debate, in sabre-rattling and inciting young people on to the streets —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Was it a terrorist attack?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

— while they stay cosy in their homes —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Minister, take your seat, please.

I do not want to have to curtail Members when they are involved in reasonable debate, but respect has to underpin all of our contributions. These issues are not easy; they are challenging and difficult. Members have a right to pose questions if they do so respectfully. They also have to give the people to whom they ask the questions time and respect to answer those questions. We will not listen to any more interruptions.

There is less than a minute left. Deputy First Minister.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have concluded. Thank you.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Members, take your ease for a moment or two, please.

Oral Answers to Questions — Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Questions 6 and 11 have been withdrawn.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

1. Mr O'Toole asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs what assessment he has made of the economic impact of increased food exports from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland and the EU single market. (AQO 2679/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am aware of statistical reports that show large increases in food exports between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland compared with 2020. Caution needs to be applied to comparisons with 2020 given the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic and its disruption to trade. The increase in trade with the Republic of Ireland is not surprising given the trade barriers that have been put in place between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, with the resulting disruption causing businesses difficulties in trading with, by far, our biggest market and having to seek alternative customers. Hence, I continue to seek the removal of all trade barriers within the United Kingdom for goods that are used in Northern Ireland.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, last week, you said that a proposed new UK/New Zealand trade deal poses "a very serious threat" to Northern Ireland farmers. You just acknowledged that exports from North to South — and, in many cases, I am sure, onwards to the wider European single market — have increased. Does it not therefore follow that Northern Ireland is benefiting from the protections of the protocol and will benefit from them to protect our farmers from what are, as you have said, very serious threats of the UK/New Zealand trade deal?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Our exports have also increased to Great Britain, and therefore exports are going quite well. One reason why exports from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland have increased is due to the difficulties that the Republic of Ireland has with importation from Great Britain. We do not want to be in a similar circumstance in which Northern Ireland has those difficulties with importation from Great Britain. We already have issues there, and it is not in the benefit of any of our constituents to have unnecessary trade barriers imposed between our main trading partner, Great Britain, and Northern Ireland. Therefore, businesses across Northern Ireland and across the community are saying to us that we need to remove those barriers. I hope that the Members opposite will join and assist us in supporting the removal of such barriers.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Does the Minister agree that the protocol barriers have caused a substantial diversion of trade, which is one of the proper grounds upon which article 16 of that same protocol can be triggered? If it is triggered, will the Minister undertake to, at that point, cease all checks at our ports that are being exercised under the protocol?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have engaged with my senior civil servants to indicate that they should be looking at the Command Paper that was produced in July as a means of moving forward on this issue. Trading barriers are not to our benefit, and the deployment of highly qualified veterinary staff and environmental health staff in that role takes them away from other important roles. Unnecessary checks should not be carried out at Northern Ireland seaports because of our juxtaposition to Great Britain. Therefore, that action needs to be addressed.

I remind the Member, even though he knows very well, that a different set of circumstances relating to live animals pre-existed Brexit and the protocol, and we need to take full cognisance of that as well.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

In the context of the increasing levels of North/South trade, will the Minister give a commitment to work with the agri-food sector to enable it to maximise the benefits of the protocol in being able to access the EU and the British market?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I assure the Member that, when it comes to selling goods, I will take pounds sterling, euros, dollars, yen or whatever it happens to be, and I will work with whoever wishes to acquire Northern Ireland's very well produced goods to make it as easy as possible for them to acquire those goods.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I make a declaration of interest as an ex-chief executive of the British Irish Chamber of Commerce. Has any analysis been done of the diversion of trade that has occurred? It is quite obvious that the reduction in the movement of goods between places like Holyhead and Liverpool to Dublin has, in some respects, been replicated by movements from Northern Ireland into the Irish Republic. Have you had an opportunity to talk to any of the major supermarket chains about that dislocation of the logistics chain and the fact that we have a circular economy that seems to be falling flat?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Yes, we have. Clearly, a lot of goods are coming through Northern Ireland's seaports as opposed to Dublin seaport because it is easier to get into the island of Ireland in that way. There has been a dislocation and less use of the land bridge to go to the Continent.

Our logistics firms have been doing some tremendous work on food security and food traceability. I believe that that work covers a lot of the issues that were talked about pre Brexit regarding tracing food from source right through to sale and everything in between. Ultimately, in due course, the standard of work will be used as a template right across the world. If Members have the opportunity to look at some of this, they will be pleasantly surprised and pleased at just how good we are at tracing all goods from the factory, during transit right through to their destination. If we ever get to the point of having an agreement with the European Union — I hope that, at some stage, the EU will be sensible about how best we can protect its single market — it will be able to identify the logistics work that is being done that will greatly assist in that.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

2. Mr Beggs asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs whether he will review the draft notice to approve marine licence ML 28_12 for the Islandmagee gas storage project and consent conditions of discharge TC041/20. (AQO 2680/17-22)

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

9. Mr Stewart asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs for an update on the application for a full marine construction licence for the Islandmagee gas storage project. (AQO 2687/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer questions 2 and 9 together. I am satisfied that all material considerations have been assessed by officials for the marine licence application, reviews of the discharge consent and abstraction licence for the proposed Islandmagee gas storage development. Therefore, I do not intend to review the decisions on the matter. Final licences were issued to the applicant on 5 November 2021. I am content that adequate mitigation has been identified to minimise the impacts of the project and has been incorporated into the conditions of the marine licence, discharge consent and abstraction licence, which will augment the existing mitigation in the planning permission.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The discharge licence speaks of 24,000 cubic metres per day, which is difficult to visualise. It has been estimated that that is equivalent to 10 20-ton loads of rock salt being deposited at that spot every hour for the next eight to nine years. How can the Minister be sure that that will not be detrimental to the sensitive ecosystem and, in particular, that solid deposits will not come with the concentrated brine that will gather in that area?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

At no time did I take anything to do with or interfere with any of the actual assessments that took place. I waited patiently, allowed civil servants and people with expertise, on their behalf, to carry out all those investigations, and I made a decision that was based on what was recommended to me by those officials. A number of in-depth assessments were made on the potential impacts of the project on the environment, including a detailed habitats regulations assessment (HRA), completed by DAERA, which considers the potential impacts of the project on the national site network and also the Portmuck area of special scientific interest (ASSI), Gobbins ASSI and Larne lough ASSI. The HRA was also reviewed by an independent third party. An environmental statement was prepared by the applicant. The chapters on avian and marine biodiversity, underwater noise and cumulative effects were updated in 2018-19, as was the brine dispersion model and accompanying third-party audit. That material has been made available to the public on the DAERA website.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. I share local people's real concerns about the potential environmental impacts of the project. Will the Minister confirm what measures are in place in the draft marine construction licence to require the developer to decommission in the event that the gas caverns are commenced but not completed or are not used for a period? Will the Minister ensure that any financial guarantee that is provided under the lease between Islandmagee Energy and the Crown Estate to manage any residual liabilities at the end of the lifespan of the gas caverns is to the benefit of his Department?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Islandmagee Energy Ltd is responsible for the safe decommissioning of the gas storage caverns at the end of the project's life and ensuring that arrangements are made in respect of any residual liabilities. The lease from the landowner, the Crown Estate, will require that an acceptable abandonment programme that is applicable to the works, including the arrangements for residual liabilities, is provided. The Crown Estate has indicated that works cannot commence below mean high water spring tide level until the issue is resolved. DAERA has included that information on the marine licence. DAERA will continue to engage with the Crown Estate to ensure that all conditions are satisfied. The company may require a new marine licence from DAERA to undertake the physical aspect of the decommissioning activity. At that stage, the impacts of decommissioning would be considered, and potential environmental impacts would be given full consideration.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I have heard the Minister's answers to the previous two questions. However, it simply beggars belief that a project of the size of the gas storage facility that is proposed for Islandmagee would not have a significant environmental impact in an area of special scientific interest that is surrounded by other ASSIs and conservation areas. Given the need to move away from the use of fossil fuels and the British Government's announcement that new gas boilers will be banned from 2035, does the Minister now accept that this project should be scrapped?