Northern Ireland Assembly, 12 October 2021

358 contributions from 57 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Mr Andrew Muir has sought leave to present a public petition in accordance with Standing Order 22. The Member has up to three minutes in which to speak.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I present this petition, with over 1,000 signatures, calling on the Minister for Infrastructure to bring forward a comprehensive, detailed strategy to rapidly expand the public electric vehicle charging network in Northern Ireland.

In 2010, Northern Ireland's electric vehicle charging network was world leading, but, as more people turn to sustainable modes of transport, Northern Ireland has let its electric vehicle charging network fall to being the worst network of any region in the UK and Ireland.

A useful example of the atrocious state of our electric vehicle charging network and of why so many people have signed the petition can perhaps be found in the case of a driver who travelled to Omagh from Belfast, a three-hour round trip that would require him to charge his electric vehicle before returning home. As there are at least six different charging points in the town, that would not be an issue — or so he thought.

Before returning home, the driver went to the local leisure centre to charge up. He found one side of the charger already in use and the other taken up by a non-electric car that was parked in the space. The driver of that car moved to another space, but, in getting ready to charge, it became apparent that the charger on that side was broken. The driver then drove to the park-and-ride, located on the other side of the town. The charger there also appeared not to be working. A quick call to the Electricity Supply Board (ESB) confirmed that neither side was working, so he moved to another car park with a double charger. One side of the EV charger had been in use for over an hour and a half, and the free side was, again, not working. This takes our driver back to the leisure centre, where the other car was still charging and the free EV charge point was out of use. Staff at the centre directed him to another charger, but, with the sign on the gates of the car park saying that it could be locked any time after 5.30 pm, he decided that it was not worth the risk of getting locked in overnight. Once again, he went back to the leisure centre and waited for the charger there to become free. Finally, he made it home, four hours later than intended.

The improvement of chargers, having more chargers across Northern Ireland and standardised payment options need to be considered urgently. The lack of on-street or at-work charge points and the need for interest-free loans to encourage people to go electric must also be considered. I call on the Infrastructure Minister to listen to the hundreds of individuals who have signed the petition and take the crucial next steps to move Northern Ireland's electric vehicle charging network forward.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Normally, I would invite the Member to bring his petition to the Table and present it. However, in light of social distancing, I ask the Member to remain in his place and to make arrangements to submit the petition to my office electronically. I thank the Member for bringing the petition to the attention of the Assembly. Once received, I will forward the petition to the Minister for Infrastructure and send a copy to the Committee.

Private Members' Business

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

I beg to move

That the Second Stage of the Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) Bill [NIA 35/17-22] be agreed.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

In accordance with convention, the Business Committee has not allocated any time limits to the debate. I call on Ms Bailey to open the debate.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

Thank you. First, if possible, I reassure Members that the Bill is by no means a rushed response to the escalation of protests that we are seeing at hospitals, clinics and family-planning centres across Northern Ireland. It is a response to what I witnessed and experienced during my time as a volunteer at the Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast city centre. What I learned during that time was that the gatherings are not protests, at least, they are not protests as I understand them. What is happening on our streets is a very deliberate campaign of harassment and intimidation against women. During my time there, I was spat at and assaulted, I had holy water splashed on me and I was verbally abused. I saw one young woman who was so distressed that she ran into four lanes of oncoming traffic to try to escape the protesters. Another young woman, who was alone in the city, was filmed and threatened that the footage would be uploaded and broadcast on social media. They also threatened to report the scenes to the police.

The protests cause such distress to people and have unintended consequences on other building and premises users: staff, clients and anybody else who is trying to gain access. Every woman of childbearing age is targeted. Staff do not feel that they can carry out their duties safely; they are also recorded, threatened and intimidated. We are hearing now from health and social care trust staff that they have had to employ extra security personnel, put reinforced windows in premises, use blackouts on glass and install CCTV cameras. I have been working to produce the Bill since I was first elected back in 2016, and I am glad to have it debated today in the House.

I am also very well aware that there are many different views in the House on reproductive rights generally and abortion specifically, but I ask that Members do not distract themselves with their views on those issues and instead focus on what the Bill seeks to achieve, which is simply safe access to healthcare provision for all people and all staff. The Bill does not seek to remove anyone's right to protest, nor would I ever support such attempts under any circumstances. The Bill has been drafted with a very heavy focus on achieving a balance between competing rights and freedoms under the Human Rights Act 1998: the freedom of thought, conscience and religion under article 9 and the freedom of assembly and association under article 11. Both those rights are provided with limitations. Those limitations are stipulated as:

"No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."

The Bill achieves that balance.

I will give a brief overview of the Bill's clauses. I hope that Members have had time to read them. Clause 1 simply sets out the overview. The clause:

"requires the Department of Health to establish safe access zones".

It criminalises acts within the zones that prevent or impede access, or which influence, harass, alarm or distress those accessing the premises. Clause 2 stipulates the premises where abortions are carried out and sets the definition of protected premises as any premises where terminations are, or are proposed to be, legally carried out. Clause 3 is about:

"Premises where information, advice or counselling ... are provided".

That includes such premises within the definition of protected premises under the condition that the premises is a hospital or health and social care trust clinic that is used to provide medical services under the Health and Personal Social Services (NI) Order 1972 or is approved by the Department of Health for the purposes of the clause. Premises that provide information, advice or counselling on abortion are also deemed to be protected premises, as are premises whose operator requests them to be and which the Department of Health determines them to be. The Department of Health can make that determination only if it is reasonable to do so.

Clause 4 looks at protected persons. It stipulates that a "protected person" is anyone:

"attending protected premises for the purposes of— (a) accessing the treatment, information, advice or counselling ... (b) accompanying a person ... or (c) working in, or providing services to, the ... premises."

Clause 5 looks at the safe access zone. That extends to the premises, including all entrances and exits, and the public area outside and in the immediate vicinity, as designated by the Department of Health. That is designed to allow protected people to carry out their duties or access services safely without fear or intimidation and with the assurance of confidentiality.

Clause 6 goes into the offences. It makes it an offence in the safe access zone to influence a protected person or prevent or impede their access, or cause them harassment, alarm or distress. It stipulates that recording a protected person without their consent for the same purpose is also an offence. In addition, it creates a defence if a person:

"did not know, and had no reasonable way of knowing, that the protected person was in a safe access zone."

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

Certainly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member explain why clause 6 is at all necessary? Under legislation that presently exists, most notably the Protection from Harassment Order 1997, harassment is already a criminal offence, and under the Public Order Order 1987, disorderliness and all that goes with it is already a criminal offence. Where is the necessity to duplicate in the Bill?

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for the intervention. In my experience, the current harassment laws simply do not suffice.

Under current harassment laws, we have to have the one person targeting the same person on two or more occasions, and that person then reporting it to the police. In my experience, anybody who is accessing particular services will not report harassment to the police because they want to maintain their confidentiality, and the police struggle to enforce current harassment laws. We had another circumstance in which a member of staff from Informing Choices, formerly the Family Planning Association, was assaulted. The conviction was upheld, yet the person who assaulted the staff member is still allowed to protest at the doors, and the police feel that they cannot take action.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

Yes.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Surely, under the harassment Order, there is the capacity upon conviction — indeed, it does not even require a conviction — to have a restraining order. Therefore, that area is covered in respect of future activity. I struggle to understand why the Member is bringing a Bill to duplicate the law that already exists.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

I thank the Member, again, for his intervention. I go back to the fact that I do not believe that current law is able to tackle what is happening. On one occasion when I was assaulted, the assault was reported to the police. The person was arrested and investigated and, after six weeks of a restraining order and having a zone put on them, it was deemed that no further action could be taken because sufficient CCTV evidence could not be collected. Therefore that person was allowed to continue with the behaviour. Having listened to the police in my discussions with them over the years, I feel that the current harassment Order is not enough to allow people confidentiality and safe access to premises.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. Further to Mr Allister's intervention, will the Member explain why she is not taking the approach of strengthening the current harassment Order, which she has claimed is below the required standard, rather than tabling a private Member's Bill?

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for that. From my experience, I feel that this is needed for specific reasons, which, I hope, I have set out. We are seeing the escalation of targeted campaigns against women on the streets of Northern Ireland. That is why I have brought the Bill.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Having sat previously on the Justice Committee and currently on the Policing Board, I can state categorically that the current harassment laws do not suffice. Does the Member agree? It is well and good to talk about restraining orders, but if you speak to people about why we needed the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Bill, you will hear that restraining orders were part of the reason. They did not protect women and families from domestic abuse of any description. If someone is successful in getting a restraining order, they will find, very quickly, that the person can have them back in court, and there is a cost to that. It is important that we have laws that protect people, and not just what looks good on paper.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for her intervention. She is absolutely right. Using the harassment Order and reporting to the police take time, and, when people are trying to access healthcare, counselling or advice in emergency circumstances, it is not plausible to go down that avenue.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member take one more intervention?

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

Certainly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I am much obliged. I do not understand the distinction that the Member is making. Proof of any criminal offence takes time. There has to be a complaint, an investigation and a prosecution, and that prosecution will not be any quicker regardless of whether it arises under the Member's clause 6 or the harassment Order. There is nothing in the point that the Member is making about the need to get more instant remedy. The law is still the law; it still has to take its course. You cannot short-circuit it.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for that. Again, I go back to the situation of someone who is trying to access healthcare and is fearful about doing so, or prevented or intimated from doing so. They are not reporting to the police. They are leaving the area and not accessing the healthcare. The Bill is about creating safe zones for people to access healthcare so that they do not necessarily have to make a report to the police and go through that whole process. It is about accessing healthcare services that are provided in a number of places throughout Northern Ireland. It is nobody else's business what healthcare people need access to, so the view that women who should be able to access that healthcare confidentially should be expected to report incidents to the police and go through that process is completely untenable.

I turn to clause 7, which deals with the enforcement provisions. Those allow the PSNI to direct a person to leave or to remove a person from a safe access zone if it believes or thinks that the person is about to create an offence under clause 6(2) of the Bill. The police can direct people to cease recording under clause 6(3) and may use reasonable force to remove them, if necessary. Clause 7 also makes it an offence not to comply with removal or to resist it. That is punishable, on summary conviction, by a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.

Clause 8 sets out the procedure for designating a safe access zone. It stipulates that operators of premises notify the Department of Health that they wish to have a safe access zone. The Department of Health will then have eight weeks in which to create one. The Department must consult with operators, surrounding landowners and occupiers, the PSNI and other appropriate people to determine the extent of the safe zone. The Department can vary a safe zone after consultation or remove it if the operator no longer wishes for it to be there. It must also publish the extent of the safe access zone and any variations or revocations that it thinks appropriate.

Clause 9 deals with the exercise of functions. The Department must have regard to the safety and dignity of protected persons, their right to a private and family life under article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights and their right to manifest religious belief, their right to freedom of assembly, their right to freedom of expression and their right to protest, as I mentioned, under articles 9 to 11.

Clause 10 deals with monitoring. It requires the Department to publish annual reports on the effectiveness of safe access zones for protecting the safety and dignity of protected persons.

Clause 11 provides a brief interpretation, while clause 12 deals with commencement and provides that clauses 6 and 7 will come into effect three months after Royal Assent, if the Bill is enacted. Everything else would come into effect on the day after Royal Assent. Clause 13 is simply the Bill's short title.

Members, as I said, I feel that the Bill achieves a balance. If I could add anything else, it would be to reiterate the point that all people — every single citizen — have the right to access healthcare in confidence, without fear and without being intimidated. Staff also have the right to do their job without being abused or harassed. We would not accept that in any other circumstance. We would not accept it outside blood donation centres, so it should not be acceptable in this context.

The 2018 'Report of the inquiry concerning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland under article 8 of the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women' concluded that there had been:

"grave and systematic violations of rights under the Convention due to restrictive access to abortion for women and girls in Northern Ireland".

Among the specific articles of the convention that were found to have been violated were articles 10 and 12, as there had been a failure to protect from harassment by anti-abortion protestors women who were seeking sexual and reproductive healthcare services and information.

The inquiry report referred to the:

"impunity of anti-abortion protestors for assaults perpetrated against women seeking abortion."

I consulted widely and met many bodies during the drafting of the Bill, and, to date, no human rights or equality impacts have been raised; in fact, the Equality Commission has welcomed the Bill as providing further clarity and sees the opportunity for the Bill to have a positive equality impact, which is worth noting.

The Northern Ireland Office (NIO) did not move to introduce safe access zones or any other measures when it changed the abortion laws via Westminster back in October 2019. It said that it would keep an eye on the ongoing situation. I have met the Secretary of State on the issue, and he welcomes the move to follow through and finish what was not done back then. I urge the House to please step up and support the Bill.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the opportunity to make some initial remarks on behalf of the Health Committee outlining the Committee's consideration of the Bill before speaking as my party's health spokesperson.

As the Member outlined, this relatively short Bill of 13 clauses requires the Department to establish safe access zones around abortion clinics to protect the women who use the clinics and the staff who work in them and, indeed, in other healthcare services that are delivered in that area. The Bill makes it a criminal offence to harass people in a safe access zone around the clinics. During the Committee's consideration of the Severe Fetal Impairment Abortion (Amendment) Bill — the SFIA Bill — it took evidence from the trusts. The trusts' chief executives raised the issue of protests and highlighted their concerns for service users and staff. I will return to that a bit later.

The Bill has a number of policy objectives, including ensuring that women and others visiting or working in premises are not approached in an unsolicited manner, and prevents activities designed to cause distress or to deter a person from approaching the building. The Bill places obligations on the Department of Health to create safe access zones, to designate the extent of the zone, to consult on the zone and to publish an annual report highlighting the effectiveness of the safe access zones. It also creates a series of obligations on constables in relation to the monitoring and enforcing of safe access zones.

As I mentioned, during the Committee's consideration of the SFIA Bill, the issue came up in evidence a number of times. A number of those who submitted evidence highlighted the difficulties for women in accessing healthcare services. At our meeting on 8 July, we discussed the issue with the chief executives of the trusts. The Committee was concerned by the evidence that it heard from the chief executives on the number of reports that had been made to the PSNI and on the use of trust resources to improve security at trust premises.

Following the briefing, the Committee wrote to the Department of Health, the Department of Justice, the PSNI and the trusts to ask what measures were being taken to address the issue. In its correspondence, the Committee recognised the right to lawful and peaceful protest but highlighted concerns that patients and staff may feel intimidated or harassed. In responding to that letter, the Minister of Health indicated his willingness to work with the Minister of Justice on that cross-cutting issue. The Minister also indicated that the development of a service specification model for the commissioning of abortion services was under way and that that work would take account of the need to provide those services in a way that protected patients and staff from obstruction or intimidation. The Minister of Justice indicated her willingness to bring forward legislative proposals to provide for exclusion zones but advised that legislation was not likely to be progressed in this mandate. The trusts provided information on protests and the action that each trust was taking to mitigate the impact on staff and patients at premises in which non-commissioned early medical abortion services were being provided.

The PSNI reported on engagement with trust staff and people who were engaged in protests. The Committee will publish all its correspondence on the issue alongside its report on the Severe Fetal Impairment Abortion (Amendment) Bill.

The Bill sponsor briefed the Committee on the principles of the Bill at its meeting last Thursday. She provided the Committee with an overview of the need for the Bill and the consultation that had been undertaken. She also provided her personal experiences of being a client escort with the Marie Stopes centre.

Members asked a number of questions during the briefing, including some on the definition of harassment and the need for further training for police to deal with those situations. There was a discussion about possible challenges to the legislation, the likelihood of a number of challenges being brought forward on safe access zones and the possible differences in interpretation by all those involved. The Member outlined that a legal challenge had been taken forward in England on safe access zones. Ms Bailey advised the Committee that the case was unsuccessful and that an appeal was lodged in the Supreme Court. Its decision was not to allow that challenge and to uphold the original decision.

Ms Bailey also outlined that there could be some costs following implementation of the Bill. She outlined that the comparable costs in Britain were approximately £250,000 a year and were largely legal costs to contest challenges. Members raised other issues during the briefing. Provided the Bill passes its Second Stage, the Committee looks forward to engaging with stakeholders and scrutinising the Bill in further detail.

I will now make a few remarks as Sinn Féin's health spokesperson. I thank Clare and acknowledge her first-hand experience with regard to this difficult issue, which we have all seen play out in front of our own eyes. We must recognise that there is an issue here and that we have a responsibility to engage to see how it might be moved forward.

The right to protest and the right of free speech are rights and values that I endorse. I also endorse the human right to access healthcare. I support that right for every patient in every circumstance. I endorse the right to go to work safely without fear of intimidation. It is the entitlement of every worker. I hope that Members agree with that.

The protests that we have seen at clinics in recent months infringe on the rights of others: those of patients who seek healthcare and those of workers who are trying to provide that care in a compassionate way. The protests are not always what anyone would describe as respectful. They are sometimes frightening and intimidatory, and they target vulnerable patients who are simply exercising their human right to access the healthcare that they need and to which they are entitled.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for taking an intervention. Does he agree that, first and foremost, what needs to be recognised by the House — this is where leadership comes from — is that it is a healthcare issue? If we talk in language that does not recognise that, we allow for that behaviour and for people to say that it is not a healthcare issue. We need to give leadership in the House.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for her intervention. I agree that it is certainly a healthcare issue. We must ensure that healthcare can be accessed and provided in a way that is free from intimidation.

We have heard that the protests are impacting on people who are dealing with really tough situations that at times involve the loss of a much-wanted baby. These are difficult decisions in difficult circumstances, and, indeed, even at times involve those who are struggling to carry a difficult pregnancy to term despite knowing that the result may be the loss of their child at or soon after birth.

The protests are also causing stress across trusts, with services having to be secured and sometimes moved from one site to another, causing additional expense and burden on trust staff, who are already hard-pressed. It is regrettable that we have to find a way to secure a patient's access to a healthcare procedure that they might need. It is also regrettable that workers are being harassed or intimidated when going to their place of work, in the course of which they provide healthcare to all. In often delicate and sensitive times in the lives of some women, they are being confronted by protests that use inflammatory and offensive imagery to traumatise and often re-traumatise and trigger patients.

I support the Bill and what it aims to do. It proposes to provide safe passage to workers and patients while recognising the rights of others to free speech and to assemble and protest.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Whilst the House is deeply divided on the issue of abortion, we can all stand four-square behind the need to tackle abuse against those entering health and social care premises. I want to make that very clear from the outset. Neither I nor my party support abuse or harassment. Therefore, the question facing us today is not whether we choose to address this form of wrongdoing but how we choose to address it.

That said, I am concerned that the Bill may represent a missed opportunity to crack down on specific and prevalent forms of threatening and abusive behaviour at these sites. Either by design or neglect, the criminal offences outlined in clause 6, as Mr Allister alluded to in an intervention, are vague and open-ended. The general offence would extend to any action deemed likely to directly or indirectly influence someone's decisions. Under the Bill, anything from a conversation to a leaflet would be deemed criminal. Notwithstanding whether such a definition would be enforceable in practice, that is an incredibly broad scope. Some Members will deem those who hold a pro-life stance as offensive, and others, like me, can consider a pro-abortion stance as equally offensive.

In 2018, the then United Kingdom Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, conducted an in-depth review into protest activities outside abortion clinics. The outcome was clear. He acknowledged that:

"introducing national buffer zones would not be a proportionate response".

Further in the report, the Home Secretary went on to describe the overwhelming type of activity that took place at such protests:

"The main activities reported to us that take place during protests include praying, displaying banners and handing out leaflets. There were relatively few reports of the more aggressive activities".

I, again, make it clear that neither I nor my party, nor the vast majority of pro-life advocates, have any common cause with those who engage in either aggressive —

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I will in a moment.

— or violent activities, and they should be pursued with the full rigour of the law. On that point, I will give way to the Chair.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for giving way. The Member references that very few protests cause concern, but will he acknowledge that the impact on each individual who is caught up in those very few cases is substantial and, perhaps, life-changing?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I absolutely understand and appreciate that, if somebody is confronted, whether on an issue that is personal to them or personal to somebody else, that can be a distressing circumstance. That is why I fundamentally believe that, if we are to address such harassment and such intimidating actions, we must use the proper legislative means and vehicle to ensure that we can weed out those instances, which the report highlights are very few, albeit, at the same time, concerning.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I will indeed, Mr Allister.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Does the Bill not, in fact, do the very opposite? Instead of weeding out the sinister and that which needs to be dealt with, it equates the very basic issue of lobbying and influencing with the more sinister acts. Clause 6(2) lists "influencing" as something that is now to be a criminal offence. We are going to criminalise the attempt to influence people, no matter how mildly, meekly, lawfully and orderly that is done. Is that not the real pernicious inroad of that clause?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank Mr Allister for his intervention. Those are the precise reasons, as well as the Bill's open-ended and vague nature and where it could go, that cause me and, indeed, my party concern. I will touch on those points further on in my contribution.

There are more appropriate avenues than the pursuit of a private Member's Bill of this nature to deal with such matters, including strengthening harassment laws or other legislation on harassment. There is a real risk that the clauses that constitute the main fabric of the Bill would unfairly restrict freedom of assembly, expression and religious belief as set out in articles 9, 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). It also risks setting a precedent for banning protected speech in other public settings. The Bill will have consequences, be they intended or unintended.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

Will the Member give way?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I will in a moment. I want to proceed at this stage, please.

Everyone has a right to free speech under the law. That right should never be taken for granted and must always be protected. Many Members, some of whom I have allowed to intervene today, say things I do not agree with, and I am sure they could say the same about me. We will have differences of opinion, but we must always protect the legitimate right to express that opinion.

At this point, I will give way to Mr Carroll.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he accept that there is no ultimate freedom of speech and that every element of freedom of speech comes with rights and responsibilities? You cannot just go out and offend certain organisations and minority groups. Does he recognise that the Bill only limits the right to give out certain material in a certain area? The images used by some anti-choice organisations, which I and many other people find offensive, will still be allowed to be displayed in towns and cities across the North. Does he accept that that will be the case even if the Bill proceeds?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his intervention. It is almost as though he had prior sight of my speech, because I am coming on to that point about responsibilities.

On the offensive nature, as he deems it, of the pro-life position and what those people argue for, the Member has to equally realise that many people from a pro-life perspective are deeply offended at the termination of the unborn. They feel so passionately about the issue that they believe it is their duty to stand up for the unborn, be it in democratic settings like this and in the community.

On the Member's point about rights and responsibilities, of course free speech is not an absolute. There are limitations prohibiting speech that incites violence, constitutes harassment or is defamatory, but there are laws to deal with that. Those should be any Member's first port of call, rather than a Bill of this nature, which, to my mind, would have dangerous and far-reaching consequences.

On a practical level, there is a risk that establishing buffer zones may only have the effect of displacing public order concerns away from the immediate vicinity of public or private premises to other access points at key junctions. What then?

Furthermore, the Bill is unlikely to ease operational pressures facing the PSNI as a result of any protest activity. Instead, in all likelihood, it would create further training requirements that are associated with new offences. Experiences from other jurisdictions indicate that the Bill's —.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member give way?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I will in a moment.

Experiences from other jurisdictions indicate that the Bill's arrangements are likely to be wrapped up in litigation from free speech activists for many years. That would place an extra strain on the public purse and would be a key consideration as the Department of Health aims to chart a course towards recovery and reform.

I will give way.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for taking an intervention. I am not aware of the PSNI raising any concerns about any training that it would have to undertake as result of the legislation, but if I am wrong on that, I am sure the sponsor of the Bill will correct me.

I am also a wee bit confused. Are you seriously suggesting that in any other circumstance where individuals need to access healthcare, whether it is cancer services, IVF services or whatever, we would be having this same conversation? I do not believe for one second that we would.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for her intervention. The Bill sponsor may come on to that point, but I am not aware of any PSNI representations in relation to the Bill. In fact, the original consultation on the Bill goes back to 2016; I am not aware of anything more recent than that, but the Bill sponsor can come on to that.

On the Member's second point, I will say this: please do not misrepresent what I am saying here today. We have to realise that the Bill, in itself, has potential far-reaching consequences for fundamental freedoms and values. It is not about pitting one section against another, whether that is to do with cancer services or other such hospital services, or, indeed, in other settings. In times past, we have seen some very dangerous protests outside PSNI recruitment centres, where dissident republicans have made death threats against potential PSNI recruits. We have to get back to the potential far-reaching consequences of the Bill rather than trying to pit one section against another.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I will not at this stage. I have given way quite generously.

The content of the Bill is what I am interested in, and I see that content as fundamentally flawed. We have to ask ourselves whether the objective of affording patients and staff appropriate protection would be best served, not by writing a blank cheque or by introducing what is, in my view, a regressive Bill that limits and restricts hard-fought basic freedoms and values that are as old as time, but by enhancing existing tools, including the law on harassment. Such an approach would have an established foundation and would not require either the extensive lead-in time or the costs that the Bill's arrangements would incur, nor, indeed, as was highlighted by Mr Allister, would they run the risk of duplication.

In a statement to BBC NI prior to this debate, Minister Swann said:

"It is for the Northern Ireland Assembly to determine whether the proposals set out in this bill will provide an effective means for protecting those rights, alongside the rights to freedom of assembly and expression."

The Health Minister is, of course, right in that regard. As for me and my party, we respectfully say that we do not feel that the proposals set out in the Bill are the most effective means to deal with harassment. For that reason, we will vote against it.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill as our party's health spokesperson and as the SDLP MLA for East Derry. I would like to thank Ms Bailey for bringing forward this important Bill. Recently, we have seen an increase in much-needed discussion of the harm and intimidation of and violence against women in our society. I feel that the Bill addresses a real part of that issue here in Northern Ireland: the worrying normalisation of harassment towards women who are seeking medical treatment. Let us be clear: no form of intimidation, harassment or violence has ever been, or ever will be, acceptable.

Many of these protests happen at places that offer family planning, counselling for those who have suffered miscarriages and a host of other services as well as terminations. This behaviour can be divided into two groups. The first includes protestors displaying banners and handing out leaflets; the second includes protestors handing out model fetuses displaying graphic images, following people, blocking their path and, as Ms Bailey mentioned, even assaulting them. One cannot begin to imagine the damaging and detrimental impact that this behaviour has had on patients and staff. Women who have just had a miscarriage are being forced to look at those images. This behaviour can leave patients distressed and has caused some to rebook their appointments, resulting in further delay, or to not follow medical advice in order to avoid the protestors.

I fully recognise that all anti-abortion activities outside those clinics can cause great distress, and I extend my sympathies to all those who are either going through or who have previously gone through that extremely difficult and personal process. I hope that Members agree with me that women have a fundamental right to privacy and dignity, especially when they are visiting a hospital at a very sensitive time when they are profoundly vulnerable. Let us be clear that that is not always women who are having a termination; it is often any women of childbearing age entering clinics.

I am aware that some see the argument as being complex or reject the Bill due to the nature of competing constitutional rights, but let us be clear: we respect the right to religious belief and the right to assembly. We do respect that, and we accept the right to protest.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree that there is nothing Christian or religious about shouting abuse at women or calling them murderers when you do not know their circumstances or what they have been through?

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the Member for her intervention. I wholeheartedly agree. Look back at the AIDS pandemic of the 1980s, for example. Many people protested outside AIDS clinics, saying that it was a "gay disease". That shows the level of disgust that I have towards the attitude shown outside those clinics. These are vulnerable individuals attending the clinics to seek healthcare and support. They deserve dignity and privacy when doing so. I thank the Member for her important intervention.

This is not about criminalising prayer. It is about preventing harm and promoting the safety and well-being of women who are trying to access healthcare. The SDLP supports the Bill.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

It is important to separate the proposed legislation, and this debate on that legislation, from our personal positions on abortion, whether pro-life or pro-choice. No connection should be made, either spoken or implied.

Protests outside trusts or charitable premises have been going on for some considerable time. Over recent weekends, we have seen that type of protest copied outside COVID vaccination hubs in a part of west Belfast. No matter what the protest is about, such behaviour cannot be condoned.

In considering this legislation, we must balance competing rights. People have the right to hold a view strongly enough that they will stand on a picket line, carry placards or write irate letters to public representatives or to the media. Equally, however, people who are seeking medical advice or guidance are entitled to do so in an atmosphere that is not frightening or intimidating, especially when those people may be at the lowest and most vulnerable point in their lives.

The Bill requires the Department of Health to establish safe access zones around abortion clinics to protect the women using the clinics. It would become a criminal offence to harass people in a safe access area around those clinics. I am pleased that the Bill has not been definitive about the scope of these safe access areas, because different locations will obviously have different requirements. It is good that the Department will be able to call on the advice of people in those locations who will be best able to judge the extent of those safe access areas when they are created. No one should be obstructed or intimidated when accessing lawful healthcare services, for whatever reason. That includes staff working at such facilities.

Another behaviour that the Bill will prohibit is filming and recording people. Again, my party supports that.

We also cannot lose sight of the fact that some of the buildings where the clinics are conducted also house other businesses, offices or industries. Staff in those offices who may have suffered the loss of a baby through stillbirth, for instance, have to run the gauntlet of the placards, the pamphlets, the protest, the shouting and whatever. We cannot forget that. In all conscience, that cannot be right, and we cannot allow it.

In addition, although the right to assemble and express an opinion is an important freedom, it needs to be balanced against causing undue distress and disruption to any user of any service. The Bill is not about stopping freedom of speech but about stopping the practice, albeit in limited situations, of women being impeded or openly confronted when accessing such facilities.

The legislation will not stop people protesting. It will simply determine where they can carry out those protests. If groups or individuals feel moved to conduct a protest, in Belfast city centre or in the centre of any of our towns in Northern Ireland, they will be perfectly entitled to do so, as long as their protests are lawful and peaceful.

The police have a difficulty in dealing with such protests. We have seen that, and we have said that, at the moment, the laws are difficult for the police to interpret and act on. Safe access areas will provide police with absolute clarity on when they can intervene. We therefore especially welcome the proposal in the private Member's Bill to allow PSNI officers to direct a person to leave a place, or to remove a person from it, rather than prosecute.

The Ulster Unionist Party reserves the right to amend the Bill as it progresses, but we support its general thrust.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I support the principles of the Bill. I thank its sponsor, Ms Bailey, not only for introducing it but for her resilience in pursuing this legislative change over many years.

Safe access zones exist, in the words of the Queensland Law Reform Commission:

"to protect the safety and well-being, and respect the privacy and dignity, of people accessing"

health services, whatever those services may be.

One of the arguments made against the Bill is that safe access zones have generally not been put in place elsewhere, at least not as a result of legislation. In common law jurisdictions, however, they are not unknown. They exist in large parts of Australia and Canada and in some parts of the United States. Although the Irish Government appear to have reversed their initial plans to prioritise them in forthcoming legislation, and although they have not yet been pursued in other parts of the UK, there is legislation enabling them in the Isle of Man.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair)

The fact that Northern Ireland would be the first jurisdiction in the UK to legislate in this way speaks in favour of the Bill. Being in the vanguard of legislation that is about safety, well-being, privacy and dignity is exactly what the Assembly should be about. Nevertheless, going first in the UK also speaks to the complexity of the issue, and it is on the prioritisation of human dignity and the balance of human rights that I wish to focus my remarks.

First, to be clear, my reading of the Bill is that it would be an offence to harass people within a safe access zone. That means there will be protection for all and any involved, not just those seeking to access health services directly, although they are currently the obvious victims of harassment, but those who work in them and, for that matter, those who accompany anyone accessing the services. As has already been highlighted, we on the Health Committee have heard from the chief executives of the trusts about how damaging that harassment is to the morale of the staff working in those settings. The Department of Health is already obliged to consider protecting the people attending healthcare sites, and I will come back to that. The Justice Minister stands ready to support the Health Minister on that.

Secondly, the issue is fundamentally about an unsolicited approach, and particularly about activity that is designed to cause distress to people accessing sexual and reproductive health services, and thus it is about the assurance of their safety, well-being, privacy and dignity. Again, to be clear, we are talking about access to any sexual and reproductive health services, including counselling.

The description of the zones is self-explanatory. Notably, the ability for the Department to set up zones is similar to the law adopted in the Isle of Man in 2019, and I wish to emphasise why it is so important to protect the dignity of those accessing health services.

Although the Bill sponsor does not identify any equality impact — I think that, in fact, a positive equality impact is inherent in the Bill — the huge majority of people protected by the legislation will be women. Specifically, proportionately, they will often be women in crisis at a time of vulnerability. In other words, for me, the Bill serves to try to correct an existing inequality.

Dignity is part of this. It is a word that has come to be used in recognition that we all have a fundamental right to dignity. Let us not understate how far protesters go in some instances to act in defiance of that right. The verbal abuse alone is vicious and thoroughly undignified. Calling women "hoors" or "fallen women", particularly at such an evidently vulnerable time, is already beyond what any reasonable person would see as a dignified protest. Shouting that is targeted directly at women in particular, often through loudspeakers, is already beyond what any reasonable person would see as dignified protest. Physically blocking a footpath so as to deny women their right to pass is already beyond what any reasonable person would see as dignified protest. Such protests are designed to make women feel unsafe, to have no regard for their well-being, to deny their privacy and to do anything but maintain dignity.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

Yes, certainly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Has the Member read article 9 of the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987? It states:

"A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence".

The law is already there.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

In this case, we are strengthening the law and giving it particular relevance to this circumstance.

Far from the protests being dignified, women report feeling angry, uncomfortable, traumatised, scared, intimidated, upset, inadequate, unsettled and a raft of other emotions that are not just experienced at the time but can have a lasting impact on their mental well-being. We have spoken in the Chamber many times about the need to protect our citizens' well-being. Such protests, in other words, are specifically designed not to make a point but to cause harm. When people access healthcare, they should not have to run a gauntlet of hate and harm, for that is what is happening. I hope that it is clear to everyone in the Chamber, regardless of their opinion on abortion, that there can be no moral defence for a gauntlet of hate and harm. There is no justification for enabling it, no justification for participating in it and no justification for us in the Chamber to allow it to continue to happen.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. Will she accept that those who, in principle, disagree with the Bill are suggesting not that the crimes that she has outlined are not wrong but that there are alternative means by which the law can be applied, a point highlighted and, indeed, strengthened by Mr Allister?

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

Thank you. You mentioned Mr Allister, and I have responded to him. This is about the zones, not about denying people the right to protest. We are trying to protect the space through which women and those accompanying them have to travel.

Reasonable protest is not about intentionally trying to steal someone's dignity. The torrent of verbal abuse and the physical blockage of access is one thing, but another factor frequently reported as causing distress not just to those accessing healthcare but often to those who are just passers-by is the display of graphic imagery. As with the abuse and the blockage, it is designed specifically to cause harm and to steal dignity. It does not constitute a protest; it constitutes a direct attack on the dignity, privacy and well-being of the individual. In fact, it is harmful even beyond that. It is harmful to the general public. This is Baby Loss Awareness Week, and we know that a lot of women are very much focusing on their experience of miscarriage and that such imagery causes them great distress and offence. Although the Bill deals with photography as part of the offence, it does not deal with the graphic imagery that is central to the distress and harm caused. We will have to look at that, and the Bill sponsor is happy for the Health Committee to look at it.

Having established the importance of dignity and the need for change to ensure that women accessing healthcare can maintain dignity at all times, I turn to rights. Again, some of the unease about safe access zones in other jurisdictions comes down to the balance of rights. I understand that that balance is never easy, and that is why I urge Members to back the principles of the Bill today, so that the Committee can look at that issue in further detail. To be clear, however, setting up a gauntlet of hate and harm is not a right. The right to protest, like any other right, is not absolute; it comes with responsibility. Essentially, that responsibility is to behave reasonably. No one can argue that intentionally targeting women with abuse is behaving reasonably. The right to protest has to be considered and balanced in that context. There is, of course, a fundamental right to live free from abuse, intimidation and to have human dignity. That should never be balanced against the right to protest when such means are used.

There is also the right to access healthcare; indeed, the first legislation on the matter that we are considering today was passed in British Columbia on that exact premise. The law in New South Wales is also centred around that point. As I indicated, the Committee will have to consider some human rights aspects, perhaps most obviously around clause 4 and who exactly is protected. However, the principles are sound: the right to live free from intimidation; the fundamental right to dignity; the right to protest provided it is done reasonably and without breaching the rights of others; and the right to access healthcare. I strongly urge the Chamber to support that today.

I thank Ms Bailey, Informing Choices NI, Alliance for Choice and others who have campaigned over many years for the Bill. It has my full support.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I support the Bill. I congratulate Clare Bailey for bringing it before the Assembly and acknowledge the work of Alliance for Choice, Informing Choices and others who have campaigned on the issue. I acknowledge my party colleague Senator Paul Gavan, who has worked with other parties on the Together for Safety campaign in the Twenty-six Counties. He is in the process of introducing a similar Bill in that jurisdiction.

The Bill is simple. It is about compassion and empathy. It is about supporting women, protecting their right to access health and shielding people from abuse. Just last Tuesday, we had the recommendations from the truth recovery design panel, emanating from the report on mother-and-baby institutions in the North. It is a phenomenon that will for ever remain one of the darkest stains on Irish history and a stark reminder of how not to treat women, girls and children. The abuse to which people are subjected outside clinics while accessing the healthcare to which they are entitled is another element of the same misogyny and judgement that brought us those so-called homes. It is the same ignorance and stigma that sent women to England for decades and that still sends women to England.

What is it about other people's pregnancies that offers such fascination to so many? What is it that compels people to stand outside a health clinic and intimidate women whose stories they will never know or understand? Sinn Féin is a party of protest. We support the fundamental right to protest and recognise that people should be free to take to the streets and have their point heard. However, to dismiss or trivialise the harm caused by those groups or justify their actions by describing them as "protest" is a huge disservice. Their campaigns amount to the intimidation and bullying of people in vulnerable positions without any concern for their well-being.

This is Baby Loss Awareness Week, which is an opportunity for many to share stories that, perhaps, they have not spoken about before. Some may take comfort from the knowledge that they are not alone in their experience of miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy or stillbirth, losses that impact on everyone differently. It is said that one in four women will experience miscarriage, but it is still taboo and is still not spoken about openly. Many of those women will live their life without telling anyone or will tell someone and have their experience dismissed by a heartless comparison or a minimising of their loss. They will get a letter notifying them of their next scan appointment and have to ring a receptionist to explain that they do not need it any more. At family gatherings, they have to dodge questions from well-meaning but ignorant relatives about when they plan to start a family. They will get up and get on with it, acting as if everything is fine, feeling silly for feeling sad and choking back tears at advertisements for nappies. To go through that and then be exposed to a giant poster of a fetus in the womb, accompanied by a throng of people chanting slurs, is cruelty. That is for women who are safe in the knowledge that they would not or could not be criminalised and that there are no repercussions for them if seen accessing healthcare.

The so-called protesters have no regard for people's personal circumstances or the struggles that they have faced on their reproductive journeys. They openly target and attempt to shame women who need abortions, which is reprehensible, and their lack of compassion is further demonstrated by the fact that they do not care who else is caught in the crossfire. You cannot claim to care for the unborn while harassing expectant mothers. Imagine the heartbreak those placards and loudspeakers cause to the women who have been told that they will never conceive, who have suffered ectopic pregnancies, who have been there before but are pregnant again and are just waiting for the telltale cramp, terrified that they will lose another life. Imagine the prospective fathers who never got to live out their dreams of bedtime stories or walks in the park, worrying about their partners and the impact that a fertility battle is having. What must it be like for children walking to school or the shops or going into a clinic for a totally unrelated procedure; for teenagers accessing contraception for the first time, trying to be responsible but afraid of the consequences and unsure of themselves; and perhaps, most of all, for all the women out there, our friends, sisters, cousins and aunts who need or have needed a termination? The abuse is directed at them. It seeks to vilify and demonise them, and it is wrong. I commend the Bill to the House.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

As someone who believes that every life should be valued and respected, I say unequivocally that there is no place in our society for harassment or threatening or abusive behaviour against any individual accessing any health intervention or service; in particular, there is a need to ensure that those who are vulnerable, are in crisis or have suffered loss receive adequate protection under the law. Therefore, we have to consider the appropriate means to that end. On balance, I do not believe that the Bill is the right vehicle to secure the most robust protections from harassment or, in some case, criminal behaviour.

I formed that position for a number of reasons. First, it is our view that the aim of punishing and deterring such behaviour on health and social care premises could be realised via existing mechanisms in a way that better defends the fundamental freedoms of assembly and expression. There should be an acknowledgement that a majority of local pro-life campaigners act within the law. Therefore, there needs to be a targeted and narrow focus on rooting out offending among the small number of individuals who engage in such vile, threatening or violent behaviour. That could include tightening the current law on harassment.

The case for a catch-all ban on protest activity at assigned premises is further weakened by the ambiguity in the Bill. Clause 6 would establish a general offence against anyone intent on:

"(a) influencing a protected person, whether directly or indirectly, (b) preventing or impeding access by a protected person, or (c) causing harassment, alarm or distress to a protected person".

There is no clarity about what is deemed to constitute direct or indirect influence and no definition of "alarm or distress". The clause also includes no requirement for offending to be threatening, abusive or violent. That threshold is stipulated in other important legislation, including that on domestic abuse and coercive control. Does that set the bar too low for prosecution? Moreover, if somebody is prosecuted, are the conditions in clause 6 clear enough to make the offence operable by the courts?

There is also the threat that the model would set a precedent for an unfair restriction of fundamental freedoms in other situations. For instance, if influencing a person via a pamphlet outside premises where pregnancy advice is provided is deemed a criminal offence, is the next step to ban the distribution of literature on any topic in any public place or private space on the basis that it may cause alarm?

The Bill sponsor suggests that the legislation responds to a narrow problem, but that is not simple. It is not black and white, and there is a real risk of unintended consequences. Therefore, while I absolutely agree that there should be greater flexibility in the current criminal framework to crack down on threatening and abusive behaviour against anyone entering our Health and Social Care premises or, indeed, independent premises, we cannot take the issues in isolation. There should be an awareness that there are separate examples of unacceptable behaviour that need to be tackled. Upgrading the law on harassment would provide an opportunity to tackle all abuses in the round. It is for those reasons that, unfortunately, I cannot support the Bill at this stage.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I am pleased to support the Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) Bill, as it promises to protect the rights of patients who are accessing vital healthcare, often in the most traumatic circumstances. In recent months, it has been distressing to hear from patients who are being obstructed and harassed as they exercise their human right to access healthcare. Offensive images that are meant to cause hurt and distress do just that. They amount to the psychological and emotional abuse of patients. That is no way to exercise your right to protest or to free speech, nor does it show much respect for the rights of others, especially at such a vulnerable time in their life. While I support the right to free speech and the right to protest, I also support the notion that those rights should be exercised with respect and care. That has been said across the House today, but, unfortunately, in some circumstances, it is not always the case. While those freedoms and rights on free speech are important, they neither supersede patients' rights to get the healthcare that they need nor workers' rights to go to work safely and without distress.

In recent Health Committee briefings — the Committee Chair touched on this — we have learned that some services provided by clinics have now had to be moved because of the intimidatory nature of certain protests. Extra resources have also had to be spent on relocating some of those healthcare facilities. Obviously, that is an expense that the healthcare system can ill afford, because it is already under immense pressure. However, it is also important that patients and healthcare workers, regardless of funds or resources, can go about their treatment and their business safely. The Health Committee has heard evidence of trusts having to secure buildings, and, again, that is an additional cost. From health trusts, we have heard about patients and workers being confronted by offensive and traumatising images and slurs. We have also heard of protesters who have recorded and taken pictures of patients and workers as they enter and exit the clinics. Those behaviours are nothing to do with rights or freedoms; they are basically the intimidation and harassment of vulnerable people in many circumstances. The right to protest in a way that does not constitute harassment should absolutely be protected and provided for. However, the harassment of women outside medical facilities in an effort to physically, mentally or emotionally obstruct and restrain them from accessing services is not a legitimate form of protest.

Some Members mentioned in their interventions the fact that the protections in clause 6 already exist in law, but, as the Bill sponsor said a few times, clearly something is not working. Whatever the circumstances, if women and staff do not go down the route of reporting offending behaviour to the police, what more can the Assembly do to help prevent some of it and support those people? The system is not working. Paula touched on whether it is a case of enhancing those protections.

It is regrettable that we have to have this discussion and that safe zones are even necessary, but they have become necessary as a result of the pickets and protests that we have seen intimidating patients and staff. The situation that we are in needs to stop. People can protest in an appropriate place, not where services are being provided. Safe zone legislation has been introduced successfully in other countries. Passing the Bill would send a really important message that there is support for such legal provisions and protections here.

There has been a long history of shame and hyprocrisy — Emma touched on it too — about not just the issue of abortion and whether you are pro-life or pro-choice but women's health issues overall. It is right that we all look towards a system that will protect and respect women and, in this case, pregnant people in the choices that they will make, by not only providing safe and accessible services for them but safeguarding their privacy, which is really important. It is not acceptable that anyone should be made to feel unsafe or unsupported when accessing healthcare, no matter what that healthcare is. I am happy to support the Bill.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I support the Bill. I, too, commend Ms Bailey for bringing it to the House.

Let me be clear: this is a debate not about our personal views on abortion — I have pretty strong ones — but about affording people the right to access healthcare free from harassment and abuse. Safe access zones for those seeking information and services in relation to abortion are long overdue. Everyone has a right to protest, but to hinder access to healthcare is unconscionable. When anti-vax protesters distribute inaccurate information and block access to healthcare, there is widespread condemnation, including from the Health Minister, yet, when anti-choice protesters distribute misleading information and block access to healthcare, there is widespread silence. Both are unacceptable; both cause untold damage to our communities.

In my constituency of Foyle, there is a weekly show of intimidation at the health centre just up the street from my office. I have repeatedly raised the issue with the PSNI, and its response is always the same: it acknowledges the hurt that the behaviour causes to members of our community, but it does not have the legal powers to act on it. That is why the Bill is so vital: it lays down provisions that will help to protect people from these extremists — and they are extremists. I know that many Members who identify as "pro-life" would certainly distance themselves from their behaviour.

Alliance for Choice has gathered testimonies from people who have encountered the protesters. Let me paint a picture of what many women face as they try to access healthcare: signs of dismembered babies; shouts of "baby killer", "hoors" and "fallen women"; active blocking of the entrance to clinics and the whole pavement; non-stop shouting over a speaker; and being called "Antichrist". Now, let me share how that made people feel. One person said:

"I was so afraid of them that I got a taxi from the airport straight to the door of the clinic and got picked up to leave the same way".

Another said:

"I am a man, but I immediately thought of my daughter and other young women like her ... I am outraged and disgusted that these people are allowed to intimidate and bully pregnant women."

"Uncomfortable and trapped", said another:

"Frustrated that the police weren’t moving them along ... Extremely intimidated, i have ptsd from a complicated birth after i suffered a miscarriage and these images are so traumatising".

The shouting of slogans and the use of graphic imagery that distorts reality cause real psychological damage. It needs to stop. None of us knows the circumstances of those entering the clinics. It could be a woman who has suffered a miscarriage. It could be someone who is undergoing chemotherapy and is, sadly, infertile. It could be a woman whose baby was stolen in one of the mother-and-baby homes. Those are all traumatic experiences that could be painfully raked up by the actions of the people protesting outside our healthcare centres. The sad irony is that, even though the Western Trust's early medical abortion service has been suspended for six months now, the anti-abortion protests have continued to take place every Thursday afternoon in my constituency.

On the issue of suspension of the early abortion service in the Western Trust and the failure of the Minister to commission services, inaction from his Department has forced more than 100 women from the Western Trust area to travel to England or access pills online because they were not able to receive local abortion care. The fact that Informing Choices has recently withdrawn its central access point is a reminder of how precarious access is. Yes, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS) has filled the gap, but for how long? Why is our Health Department not taking responsibility for this? I cannot answer the former, but I can answer the latter: it is because the Minister of Health has refused to commission health services for women. He is the Health Minister, and he has a duty of care to the people of Northern Ireland. He cannot simply abdicate his responsibility and ignore the issue.

In truth, depressingly, I should not be surprised. We see that hands-off approach to a wide range of women's health issues. We see it with endometriosis treatment across Northern Ireland. We see lives needlessly being curtailed because of the failure to deliver appropriate, modern treatment for women. We see it with the lack of progress in transitioning to the far more sensitive and effective HPV primary screening that has been rolled out in the rest of the UK. Is anyone else getting a sense of déjà vu? Once again, we are receiving an inequitable level of healthcare in comparison with our sisters across the water. We see it with the abysmal access to contraceptive services through the Western Trust family planning service. In Derry, there is a nine-week waiting time, and nearly 600 patients are waiting to be seen. Yet again, there is no sense of urgency. Yet again, reproductive healthcare is being utterly neglected. Yet again, our citizens are being failed.

It was World Mental Health Day on Sunday, and MLAs from across the House were united in sharing messages on the importance of mental health support. The Bill is a chance to put those words into action. Safe access zones are a mental health issue. Patients and healthcare workers are routinely targeted with abuse and traumatised by anti-abortion protesters. Let us work together to put in place the necessary protections for patients and healthcare workers and protect their mental well-being. Let us support the Bill.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Cuirim fáilte roimh an deis labhairt ar an Bhille seo. Ba mhaith liom Clare Bailey a mholadh as an Bhille a thabhairt faoi bhráid an Tionóil. I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. I commend Clare Bailey for bringing it before the Assembly.

I do not think that anyone would disagree with the statement that it is absolutely disgraceful and unacceptable that women trying to access sexual or reproductive health services are being intimidated and abused, approached and solicited, without wanting to accept any of that. In no way do women, particularly those who might be vulnerable in the circumstances, need to have such things as "Murderer" screamed in their face.

There is no way that graphic material should be shoved in their face. That is totally unacceptable. I have heard Members say here today that law already exists to deal with that type of behaviour. Well, the law is not working. We should not be trying to strengthen any law for the sake of it, but, because it is not working, the law needs to be strengthened. That is what the Bill does. It creates safe access zones for women who want to access sexual and reproductive health services, and that is how it should be.

We have also heard about the right to free speech and the right to protest. Neither of those are absolute rights. No one has the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded cinema — absolutely not — and no one is allowed to protest right outside the front door of 10 Downing Street. There are reasons that rights such as the right to free speech and the right to protest are not absolute. It is therefore right that women who are trying to access healthcare should not have to run the gauntlet of intimidation and verbal abuse, of being filmed and photographed and of having their privacy undermined.

I heard Mr Allister make a point about the Public Order Act. It is not working. Is there anyone who can intervene now and explain to me how that law is working outside clinics that offer counselling, healthcare for women who are having miscarriages, and sexual and reproductive health services? Explain to me where the law is working.

I have some personal experience —.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

No. I have some personal experience —.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

So much for wanting an explanation.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Excuse me? Sorry?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Is the Member giving way?

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I have already answered the Member.

I have some personal experience from walking past the Marie Stopes clinic in Great Victoria Street one day. The Speaker and I were accosted by a number of protestors outside that building who asked us to stand with them in their protest. When we refused, we received verbal abuse that I could not repeat in the House. It was disgraceful and unacceptable. At the time, I could only but imagine the thoughts of vulnerable women who were going into that clinic and having to face that type of intimidation and abuse. It is totally and utterly unacceptable. The law is not working, and I thank Clare Bailey for introducing legislation so that safe access zones can be created for women who want to access health services without having to put up with the level of abuse that they currently have to put up with. I support the Bill.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I, too, welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Bill, which is a very important piece of legislation, If passed, the Bill will go a long way to helping deal with issues that I have been dealing with in my constituency for almost a year now as a result of the huge impact of the protests outside healthcare facilities on the many people who have been in touch with me. The experiences that other Members have detailed in the debate, which have been very disturbing to listen to, are very similar to those that I been listening to from people across my constituency. What women have been subjected to is totally wrong, and it is a really sad state of affairs that, in 2021, we are having to put in place legislation to protect women who are trying to access safe and legal healthcare to ensure that they do not have to run the gauntlet of protestors during what is often a very traumatic time in their life. We would be having a very different conversation if we were talking about men —I know that that will not go down well. Not only do those protests have an impact on women accessing abortion, who have, for whatever reason, had to make that very difficult decision and are feeling very vulnerable but, in my experience, they have also had a profound impact on the wider public who are accessing healthcare facilities for a variety of reasons. We need to take urgent, appropriate action to address that issue.

As I mentioned, since the start of this year, we have witnessed protesters gathering at John Mitchel Place Health Centre in Newry and outside Daisy Hill Hospital. They carry placards depicting distressing images and slogans, and they harass staff and patients as they attempt to access those sites. Although those individuals claim to be trying to help people, that is certainly not the experience of those who have come into contact with the protests. I am yet to see, as my colleague mentioned, any evidence of the positive impacts of their behaviour or the protests at any healthcare facilities across the board.

I fully support the right to assemble and free speech, and I disagree with the notion that the Bill prevents any of that. Nor do I agree with DUP comments that the Bill may lead to the banning of the distribution of leaflets or other information. There are plenty of examples of where exclusion zones apply to lobbying and protesting outside facilities.

Both healthcare sites that I referenced offer a wide range of services, including services for children, young people, adults, older people, people with disabilities and people with mental health conditions. All have been subjected to images, slogans, harassment and abuse, which has caused them stress and anxiety as they tried to access the healthcare that they need. I say that with authority because I have spoken to a wide range of people. I will put that in context by sharing some of the real-life experiences of staff, patients, parents and other members of the public who have contacted me to highlight how they have been made to feel as a result of the distressing scenes that they have been faced with. In particular, I have received numerous messages from staff working across both sites, all of whom have personal stories. Some described how they were recorded going to and from work and had to ask protesters to allow them to make their way into the facilities. Others reported being subjected to verbal abuse and harassment by some of those individuals while trying to provide a vital service to the public.

It is important to remind Members across the House of how we, over the past 18 months in particular, have lauded the excellent work of health and social care staff and the sacrifices that each and every one of them has made to keep us safe. I truly hope that we will be consistent in our approach and stand up for their right to access their work, free from harassment and distress.

One staff member described to me how she had experienced a horrific miscarriage last year and was now heavily pregnant again, which, obviously, is a very anxious time for any woman. She was becoming increasingly anxious, and being faced with those images and scenes was extremely triggering for her. She stated how she found herself being reduced to tears almost every single day in her work when she encountered those protesters. No one should be made to feel like that, not least in their place of work.

It is also important, as we talk in the context of COVID, to remember how many women, in particular, attended appointments alone due to the restrictions that were in place. Whether they were accessing abortion services, maternity services, counselling following a stillbirth or miscarriage, or any other healthcare service, doing so alone meant that the anxiety of all those people was heightened. In my area, they had the added stress of coming into contact with protesters who threw holy water at them; prayed for their sins, as they see them, over a loudspeaker; displayed disturbing images; and obstructed their path. That is traumatic, and it is totally unacceptable. I vividly recall a mother who contacted me in desperation — that is the only way in which I can describe it — because she wanted to have protesters removed from the gates of Daisy Hill Hospital in Newry. She highlighted just how difficult it was for her adult son, who suffers from severe mental health problems. He was traumatised each time that he attended his mental health appointments. She explicitly described the fear that she felt as a mother who had already lost one son to suicide due to the mental health issues that he faced. She stressed that she needed her remaining son to be able to access the help that he required free from distress so that she would not have to bury another child. Accessing healthcare should be a private matter, and no one — absolutely no one — has the right to interfere in someone else's life like this, regardless of their opinion or view.

Before I finish, I pay tribute to a small group of women in Newry who came together in light of the widespread public outrage on how women were and still are being treated at these sites and formed Supporting Women Newry. Week in, week out, whatever the weather, they stand in solidarity with women and families in Newry to try to make their experiences less traumatic as they access healthcare.

I thank Ms Bailey for bringing this important Bill to the House. I ask Members to put aside their personal views, take a humanitarian approach when considering what we are debating, and support the Bill for safe access zones for women.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I support the Bill at Second Stage. I thank my colleague for bringing it forward and for all the work that she has put into it over the past number of years. I will start by declaring what the Bill is not: it is not a Bill that removes the right to protest, congregation, religious expression or belief, or freedom of speech, and nor does it deal with reproductive healthcare itself. The Bill is about safety and preventing harassment and intimidation. It is also about access to a balance of competing rights. People are congregating outside a number of healthcare facilities here. As we heard, that can be threatening and intimidating to those entering the building, including the staff who have to run the gauntlet to access their place of work. Those people are not conducting a peaceful protest that is directed at people in elected office. If they were protesting against the law, as they see it, they could stand outside the seats of government, but they are not doing that every day. The sole purpose of their actions is to harass women who are accessing sexual and reproductive healthcare, and they have no regard to the reasons or motivation of the women for doing so.

These people target only women of what they perceive to be childbearing age, or those whom they deem to be involved. It does not matter if they are going into the building for work purposes or to access legal healthcare, contraception, other family planning matters or advice. They are all deemed to be legitimate targets by the people who congregate outside. They have been known to follow women and their families along the street, and they take photographs of individuals who have entered or exited the building without the person's permission or consent, and they then threaten to publish those photographs. As we know, intimidation reached such a level at one location that volunteers came forward to offer people the opportunity to be escorted into the building if they felt that they needed it. Ms Bailey was one of those volunteers. I thank her for that and for outlining her experiences.

I, too, was subjected to the behaviour that has been outlined. On one occasion when I went to the clinic for a meeting with staff members, I was grabbed by a woman holding a plastic doll as I approached the building. She confronted me, touched and pushed my arm, asked me whether I knew what my baby looked like and said that I would regret what I was going to do. Why is anyone harassed like that for entering a building for a meeting? On leaving the building, I was met by more people outside. One had a poster of a graphic image that would not be shown on TV before the watershed. I was followed down the street by a different lady who asked me if I was at a crisis point in my life and whether I needed her advice. The last thing that anybody at crisis point needs is the unsolicited harassment of a stranger and to be shouted at on the street. The last thing that anyone needs when entering their workplace is to be called a murderer. No one should have to endure such behaviour in accessing healthcare or their workplace. That level of discomfort should not be experienced by anyone.

It is a disgrace that that kind of behaviour goes on. We need to send a strong message that condemns that type of behaviour and that states that such behaviour will not be tolerated. Unsolicited approaches must not be made to anyone who is entering a registered pregnancy advisory bureau or clinic. Likewise, other activities that are designed to cause distress, such as filming, recording, so-called counselling and pamphlet distribution, must not happen.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

I thank the Member for giving way. It is distressing to hear what the Member experienced when she was conducting her legitimate business at a clinic.

She explained very vividly how she felt coming away from the clinic. Would she agree with me that we cannot start to imagine how a vulnerable person, at a very low or crisis point in their life, would feel getting the treatment that she received when she left that clinic?

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I complete agree: it is not for unsolicited strangers to offer so-called counselling services to anybody who is at a crisis point. That goes for anything, be it a healthcare matter or any matter or at all. There are plenty of support services out there, although there needs to be a lot more crisis support for people, should they need it.

Protest is not against the law. As we heard, everyone has a right to protest, and it is deeply embedded in our recent history as a method for change. Protest is a necessary and crucial part of our society, but the actions and images used by those groups and individuals and the words that they express to anyone entering or leaving those buildings are not acceptable. Protest should not mean intimidation or harassing behaviour, and those involved in those cases do not have the right to impede access to healthcare. I do not see that type of protest occurring outside GP surgeries or, indeed, in chemists or counselling offices. If it was, it would not be accepted and action would be taken. The behaviour amounts to harassment and intimidation, and a number of the people involved have even been charged with assault.

As Mr Allister and other Members will know, the harassment laws in Northern Ireland only cover actions that occur on two or more occasions. Mr Allister asked earlier about clause 6, and he will know only too well the inadequacy of the harassment laws. So will members of the Justice Committee, given that we are currently looking to strengthen harassment laws in the Protection from Stalking Bill, which is nearing the end of its Committee Stage. There must be a course of conduct involved, and clause 6 criminalises behaviour in a geographic location rather than dealing with perpetrators or potential victims. That is why it is needed and that is what makes it different from the harassment and stalking legislation in Northern Ireland.

Restraining orders were also mentioned. As we know, those are not sufficient, they are not open to everybody and they do not protect people from abuse or harassment in the way that would be needed in these cases. They also have to go through the courts system, and all Members will know the issues with that and the significant barriers that are in place. I understand that there has been only one successful conviction that was not overturned for an assault on an employee of a sexual and reproductive healthcare charity. However, that offender is still allowed to stand outside and continue their actions.

Perhaps that answers some of the questions that Members posed about the adequacies and inadequacies of the current law and why the Bill is needed. First, those entering a building for an appointment or consultation might not return, so the behaviour does not come under the protection of current harassment laws because it is not a course of conduct. The Justice Committee and the Assembly looked at that when they dealt with the Domestic Abuse and Civil Proceedings Act (Northern Ireland) 2021, and we ensured that a requirement for the activity to occur on one or more occasion was included in the Act for that reason. Secondly, the police do not come out to every incident that is reported to them. As we are aware, the Police Service is stretched and under extreme pressure to deal with other issues. Thirdly, without the Bill, the actions that can be taken are reactive and do not protect women from the present situation. Even if the harassment laws were strengthened, there would still need to be a course of conduct to meet the definition of harassment.

A proactive and preventive method is needed. The Bill, and showing support for it, would be an important step in realising that the harassment of anyone who is using any form of healthcare facility throughout Northern Ireland will not be tolerated. No matter what our opinions may be about certain aspects of sexual and reproductive healthcare services provision in the country, it is of the utmost importance that rights are protected and upheld. No matter what type of healthcare services people require, everyone should be free to access advice and services free from harassment and verbal and physical abuse.

The creation of safe access zones is a step forward that has been discussed and debated in the Commons and in council chambers across Northern Ireland. A recent motion passed unanimously in Belfast City Council following on from same in 2017. A similar motion passed in Derry City and Strabane District Council. Also in that year, Ards and North Down Borough Council voted on a motion from us to condemn all harassment and intimidation taking place outside facilities in Northern Ireland that offer reproductive healthcare. That included attempts to physically block access to facilities and filming and recording staff and clients entering and leaving the building. That passed unanimously at committee. I note that some Members of certain parties that sit on those councils are commenting on the Bill today, totally against what their members have done at council level.

We will not tolerate groups of people standing outside GP surgeries and chemists that provide prescriptions and healthcare advice and administer vaccination programmes, for example, so why do we not condemn the behaviour outside other clinics, which obviously affects women much more than men?

I thank my colleague for all her work on the Bill. It has taken years to get to this point, as she outlined, and I urge all Members to support the Bill progressing at Second Stage.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I wish to begin by refuting the suggestion that to oppose the Bill is to endorse harassment, abuse or violence. It is none of those things, and I absolutely throw back that slur, which has been cast at those of us who would dare to question the need for and the content of the Bill.

In that same vein, we have had many diversionary emotive presentations in support of the Bill, even to the point of calling, in aid, a distortion of Baby Loss Awareness Week. We are talking about abortion. We are talking about the ending of babies' lives, yet there are those in the Chamber who have sought to call, in aid, Baby Loss Awareness Week, which is about those who lost babies not through choice.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I appreciate the Member giving way. Will he acknowledge that some images that are often shared at those protests might compound that trauma in Baby Loss Awareness Week? I have been contacted by constituents who have suffered miscarriages and are not happy about those images. Will the Member acknowledge that?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I remind Members to make sure that their microphone is in front of them and to speak into it so that everything can be recorded by Hansard.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Those persons would not be protected by the Bill. The Bill's definition of "protected person" are those going into the facilities or accompanying those going into the facilities, so the point that the Member raises is a non-point in the context of the Bill.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member give way?

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I am being surrounded by requests. I will certainly. I will start with the lady, if that is not offensive.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for giving way. I ask the Member to consider what he has just said and to think about whether he understands for one second the circumstances of any woman who finds herself in the position of needing a termination. I also ask him to consider whether it is appropriate to comment as he has just done.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I consider all those things, and I consider that it is.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for giving way. Will he not consider for one moment that, in some cases, women going into those premises seeking a termination or advice on a termination have suffered miscarriage before and that part of the reason that they may be going in to seek that advice is because there are medical complications or personal reasons? Those are not different categories necessarily, and it is deeply and profoundly offensive to many women and families who suffer baby loss and sometimes have to make those very difficult choices later on.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

If a lady is going in to seek advice about complications in her pregnancy, she would be going to her GP or a hospital. I do not think she would be going to an abortion clinic.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

No, I need to make some progress. I am generally generous with allowing interventions, but I want to start. I have not even started my comments to any extent on the Bill.

I am not distracted from the fact that the Bill, like any Bill, requires rigorous scrutiny as to what it really seeks to do. One does not have to read very far into the Bill to detect the direction of travel. Clause 1(2) states:

"Acts within a safe access zone which may have the effect of preventing or impeding access to the premises, or influencing, harassing, alarming or distressing persons accessing the premises, are criminalised."

Let me read that again, focusing on one word:

"Acts within a safe access zone which may have the effect of ... influencing ... persons accessing the premises, are criminalised."

Think about that: the House is being invited to legislate that something that may — it does not have to, but it may — influence another person should be criminalised. Think of the distressed mother whose 14-year-old daughter finds herself pregnant and goes to a clinic to get an abortion. The distressed mother begs her not to go through with the abortion. This draft law says that the mother is the criminal. That is not where the state should go with regard to this matter.

If there is any doubt about that, turn to clause 6. Clause 6(2) states:

"It is an offence for D" —

that is the person who is not a protected person, the defendant; "D" the defendant —

"to do an act in a safe access zone with the intent of, or reckless as to whether it has the effect of — (a) influencing in connection with the protected person attending protected premises".

Yes, the distressed mother of the 14-year-old who is pregnant and goes for the abortion is criminalised because she has the intent to want to influence her daughter not to do it. How can that be right? Yet, that is what the draft law would do. Let us not forget that the protected person can, of course, be a minor or an adult. The draft law is directed at that 14-year-old girl as much as it is at the 24-year-old woman, yet we are picking on mothers who may be distressed by that situation and want to bring motherly influence to their daughters. If they follow them down to the clinic, pleading with them not to have the abortion, they become the criminal. There is nothing upright, proper or legitimate about that approach.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for giving way. I refer to his earlier comments. He has just outlined a particular situation or circumstance. He took umbrage with Members referring to the fact that it is Baby Loss Awareness Week. I ask him this again: can he say categorically that he understands the circumstances of every woman in the North of Ireland who seeks a termination? I do not think that he can. Therefore, how dare he criticise those women or suggest that some of them have not experienced loss?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Had the Member been listening, she would have heard me criticise those Members of the Northern Ireland legislative Assembly who abuse the very principle and ethos of Baby Loss Awareness Week in aid of the destruction of babies. That is what I criticised.

Think of another situation with regard to what the Bill actually means.

The direction of travel of the Bill is that it will soon be criminalised to have any view contrary to abortion, but let us take the example of someone who has a religious conscientious conviction about abortion. They decide that an abortion clinic is somewhere that they will go not to shout, not to lobby, not to block people but to hold up a poster. That poster might simply have the immortal words of the sixth commandment: "Thou shalt not kill". Under the Bill, because that is capable of influencing someone and causing them, as the protester intends, to stop and think, "Do I want to kill the baby in my womb?", and because it has the capacity to cause them to be influenced by that, the protester, doing nothing but holding up those few words, is a criminal. That is a preposterous proposal, yet it gives us an insight into the Bill.

The Bill is vindictive against freedom of expression. Freedom of expression is not just the right to express the palatable; equally, it is the right to express the unpalatable. Yet, the person who reminds the users of the facilities of what, in their view, is the cardinal and sacred position that "Thou shalt not kill" is the person who, in this case, is criminalised.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member for giving way. The Member's lack of self-awareness exasperates me when I listen to his contribution. Does the Member agree that harassment can be interpreted in many ways and that, for someone who has made that very difficult decision — one that they have probably deliberated on for days and nights for weeks and have not slept — that poster that he talks about may be interpreted as harassment, because it infringes their right to make a decision about their own body and to come to a conclusion that is not easy for any woman, something that he probably cannot have an understanding of? Does the Member agree?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

No, I do not. If the content of Holy Scripture is harassment, maybe it bears out the point that Holy Scripture should be a conscience-pricker in many avenues of life.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I thank Mr Allister for giving way. I just want to extend Ms Kimmins's point about harassment. The Member will be aware that current harassment law very much focuses on the person who is being harassed rather than the person who maybe thinks or does not think that they are doing the harassment. What does the Member say about that? Should people who are protesting have self-awareness around the potential that they are harassing, particularly if it is a repeated offence?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Let us deal with harassment. You draw me to a point that intrigues me about the Bill. Clause 1(2) talks about "influencing, harassing, alarming or distressing", and, again, clause 6(2) talks about "causing harassment, alarm or distress". Harassment is defined, but not in this Bill. Harassment is defined in the Protection from Harassment (Northern Ireland) Order 1997. What is harassment? Causing alarm or distress. So what does the Bill mean when it says "harassment, alarm or distress"? Is it just being tautologous? What does it mean when it says "harassment", since the very word "harassment" in our criminal law is already defined as "alarm or distress"? Yet, additionally, we have some ill-defined, undefined harassment in the Bill. When you go to the interpretation section, you see that "harassment" is not defined. No doubt, when the Bill sponsor is winding, she will tell us what harassment is, if it is not causing alarm or distress, which is the only definition of harassment in our law. If we are bringing in a new definition, what is it? It needs to be spelled out. The House is entitled to ask and to know the answer to that question.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I appreciate the Member giving way again. Does he acknowledge that, under the current definition of harassment, the focus is on what the victim feels as a result of the harassment? His point is about the protester. However, if we put this into the context of a potential harassment offence, does the Member recognise that that harassment is about the victim? The Member talked about distress: does he acknowledge the distress caused to the victim? This is not necessarily about what is defined in the Bill; it is about what is currently defined in law. The Member is trying to make a point about what the protester might do, but does he recognise that their actions may be an offence?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I have no issue with that. It is clear to me what the law means when it says cause "alarm or distress": it means "cause alarm or distress to a third party". Of course it does. That is not the issue here. The issue on that particular is that we now have this undefined perception of harassment that clearly does not mean "alarm or distress". If it did, the Bill would not have been drafted in that tautologous way. If it simply means "alarm or distress", you do not need the word "harassment". Clearly, it means more than "alarm or distress", hence the use of the word "harassment". What is that meaning? I do not know, because we are not told in the Bill.

I want to draw attention to one or two other things in the Bill. Clause 9 relates to the exercise of functions. This relates to the Department of Health:

"the Department must have regard to, amongst other things— (a) the safety and dignity of protected persons, (b) the right to respect for private and family life (c) the right to manifest religious belief, and the rights to freedom of assembly and expression, set out in Articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Convention, and in particular the right to protest."

We are told in clause 9 that the Department, in making its censorship zones etc, must have regard to "the right to protest". However, clause 8(2) states:

"Within eight weeks of receiving this notification, the Department must designate an area as a safe access zone."

There is no scope to be influenced by the right to protest about the manifestation of religious belief. That is expunged by clause 8(2). It is only in clause 9 for presentational purposes. If ever there was any doubt about that, paragraph 5 of the explanatory and financial memorandum could not be clearer:

"The Bill does not include provision for protestors."

There it is in black and white. The Bill is about expunging and oppressing protest. The Bill, for all the fancy words of clause 9 about having regard to the right to protest, is in the business of the very opposite.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. On that point, does he agree with me about the vague and open-ended nature of the Bill? He has articulately pointed out the Bill's contradictory nature, given that clause 9(c) refers to:

"the right to manifest religious belief, and the rights to freedom of assembly and expression, set out in Articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Convention".

Does he agree that that seems merely to be an afterthought, given the functions and provisions provided for in clause 6?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

It is clear that that is there to try to paper over the fact that the Bill is an all-out assault on freedom of expression and an all-out assault on the right to protest. The proof is in clause 8(2), where it says that the Department "must" make the order. Never mind what it has to have regard to notionally; it "must" make the order. The Bill is fraudulent in that respect in pretending that, in fact, the functions are exercised subject to clause 9. They are overridden by the compulsion of clause 8(2). That is the reality.

On that point, are we in a situation where we have no law to deal with this? We are not. I have already made that point in interventions. On the question of harassment, points can be made that there has to be a course of conduct, which is defined in the 1997 Order as more than one occasion. A simple answer to that is to remove the course of conduct requirement in the Harassment Order. If that is the problem, that is the solution, not a Bill that carries us way into the realms of making it unlawful to try to influence someone. That is the real nub of the objection to the Bill.

We have harassment laws. You can get a harassment injunction. You can have a restraining order under the Harassment Order, which is for future attention, to curb how someone can act in future. Those things, among many more, already exist.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Member for giving way. He has been generous with his time. Does his exact point about harassment law recognising that this needs to be a course of behaviour, as in more than one occasion, and his outlining of the restraining order requirements not point to the need for the Bill? You cannot have a restraining order on the basis of one instance of harassing behaviour; it is for future behaviour. In the instances that we are talking about, generally speaking, the women will not go back to the clinic.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

We have had justice amendment Bills before the House. Why did none of the Members, if they are exercised about this issue, table an amendment to the Harassment Order to remove the course of conduct requirement? That was the simple answer, and it would have had universal application, not just in respect of these protected premises. That was a far easier route to follow and one that was far less objectionable.

Of course, I also remind you that there are powers under article 5 of the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 whereby the police, in the proper circumstances, can forbid public gatherings at locations. Why are we reinventing the wheel? It is already a breach of the law to engage in offensive or malicious communications under the Communications Act 2003, never mind the public order definitions that also cover those manifestations.

We have the 1997 Protection from Harassment Order and the disorderly behaviour and public order offences in the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987 and all of that. Article 9 of the 1987 Order makes it an offence to use:

"written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting".

It is already there in article 9. In fact, for that, you can get a heavier sentence than what this Bill proposes: you can get six months in jail. Why does the Bill reinvent the wheel on those issues?

I remind the House that other responsible legislatures and Governments who have looked at the issue have come to a different conclusion from this private Member's Bill. The Home Office, having examined the issue in great detail, decided in, I think, 2018, that this was not the way to go. Scotland, which is often held up by some in the House as a great example of how to do devolution, decided not to have protection zones. We set a dangerous precedent in trying to impinge on other people's opinions.

The Bill really wants to establish censorship zones within which only the sponsor's approved set of values can be articulated. We do not need the sort of society where we are so oppressive of others' opinions that you created zones within which only the approved set of values can be expressed.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way on that point. Would he care to make reference to and elaborate on the fact that, while many in the House have articulated that this would apply only in a health trust setting, the wording of the Bill makes it much more vague and that its open and vague nature means that this could, in effect, spill out into other areas across towns and villages in Northern Ireland.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

One of the reasons for that is that there is no limitation on the potential extent of the censorship zone. There is none whatsoever. It could embrace a whole town, if that were relevant.

This Bill is an open invitation to the House to create censorship zones, because the people who would be within those zones want to express values and views that offend the Bill sponsor. Through the Bill, they wish to decree that views that are disagreeable to those such as the sponsor are so wrong that they must be forcibly driven from the public square. The essence of the censorship or exclusion zones is that those views are so disagreeable that they cannot be heard or even be displayed on a poster lest they have the effect of influencing someone. That is a flagrant attack on liberty and freedom of expression.

As I said, freedom of expression has to embrace the expression of the unpalatable and the palatable equally, otherwise it is meaningless. The logic and purport of the Bill is to suppress freedom of expression and to drive it from the public forum on the basis that it is disagreeable to the views of others. That is totalitarianism. That is not the liberty that many in the House proclaim a belief in from time to time.

I cannot support the Bill. It goes far too far and is far too oppressive of the rights of freedom of expression and protest, all in the interests of excluding anything but the pro-abortion view.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I support the Bill and offer my solidarity to those women who have been intimidated while trying to access reproductive healthcare. It is never acceptable to impede someone's access to healthcare, and it is even more condemnable when the kind of healthcare that they are accessing is already a source of great stigma and when it is likely that they have already overcome many barriers to get to that point.

I also want to thank and to quote Alliance for Choice, whose representatives have been unequivocally clear on this matter. It states that whatever your party or personal stance:

"It is completely unacceptable that women and pregnant people, their friends and families, and healthcare workers should be forced to run the gauntlet of abuse and harassment. This would not be tolerated for vasectomy or any other healthcare, reproductive and otherwise."

Some Members would do well to listen to that advice.

There have been claims from anti-choice organisations that the Bill is oppressive and that it attacks their right to assembly. It is clearly hypocritical that some organisations, with members who have been convicted of harassment outside some of those clinics and who brag about people not having seen harassment yet, to speak about oppressive measures. Those organisations have been deemed by judges to have been forcing any women of childbearing age to identify their reasons for entering a Marie Stopes clinic. As we heard already, they have thrown holy water at pro-choice activists. They gather in Newry on a weekly basis and they claim that women and their healthcare providers are guilty of murder. They hold giant, graphic images, which can be entirely traumatising for women who have had a crisis pregnancy or, indeed, a miscarriage. That behaviour is oppressive, and it is exactly those kinds of tactics that make the Bill necessary.

I will pick up on the point about the rights to assembly and protest. In my opinion, the Bill is not an attack on the right to protest. It is deeply unfortunate that safe access zones are necessary at all. However, they are necessary because of sustained campaigns of hatred and harassment that do not have some inalienable right to continue, even under the guise of protest.

I am an ardent defender of the right to protest, as many in the Chamber know. I defended Black Lives Matter protesters who were shamefully targeted by the PSNI. I have protested, over the years, for reproductive choice and will continue to do so. Those who stand on the other side of the debate, on the other side of the Chamber, are still free to protest and have their voices heard, but they should not be free to frighten, shame or chase anyone away from the door of a healthcare clinic. I ask this: where was the DUP last summer, when there were curbs on the right to protest for Black Lives Matter protesters? There was absolute silence. I hope that those in the House whose views on the issue of abortion oppose mine will have the same vigour when they challenge anti-vax protesters outside hospitals, but, somehow, I doubt it.

I want to return to the matter of people who have been targeted by those harassing campaigners. As has been said, not all of them are seeking an abortion. Some of them are family, friends or partners, and none of them should be subjected to such harassment and treatment. As is the case with many of the consequences of the lack of abortion access here, they have had to speak up and tell their stories, which can be incredibly difficult. I thank them for speaking out against those groups.

I turn my attention to the Minister of Health and all the members of the Executive in the Chamber. The fact that there is still such stigma around abortion is a direct consequence of the failure to deliver free, safe, legal and local access to abortion. It is one of the worst indictments of the kind of politics that dominate this place. Women and pregnant people are failed every day for the lack of services, basic information and support. It is an international shame, disgrace and embarrassment. I hope that the words of people who have suffered for crossing the thresholds of clinics in the North will give the Assembly some impetus to put those services in place.

I leave the last word to Informing Choices. They stated in their briefing:

"We are aware of clients who have been attending counselling, and sessions were proving beneficial, but the activities of individuals outside the building adversely affected them, and, as a result, they decided not to continue with counselling."

So, for all the nice words about mental health awareness, services and support, I remind Members of that comment. I will bear it in mind when I vote.

I thank Informing Choices, Alliance for Choice, and Clare Bailey for bringing this Bill. I support it, and urge other Members to do so as well.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I strongly support the Bill. I commend my colleague from South Belfast Clare Bailey for introducing it. She has been a stalwart on reproductive rights and associated issues in the Assembly and outside it. She deserves real credit for that.

Since I am one of the last to speak, though I am sure that the Bill's sponsor will probably want to talk about it, too, I will touch on the somewhat bizarre and occasionally hair-raising and offensive things that I have heard while waiting to speak.

One of the Members who spoke previously, Mr Allister, talked about the potential for the offence of malicious communication to be used in relation to protests. To be honest, I wonder whether his speech should be referred as a malicious communication because it contained many objectionable statements that will be deeply offensive, not just to people who are seeking terminations for whatever reason but, I am afraid, to women in general. I am conscious of my position as a man who stands up to talk about these things, knowing that I will never be in the position of a woman seeking to access these services and being harassed.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I will give way in one second. It is very important that, when we are speaking about these very sensitive matters, we do so with respect, understanding and decency. I give way briefly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

To add to the Member's opposition to freedom of expression, is he now proclaiming opposition to the privileges of the House?

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

No, I am not. I was merely commenting on his speech. Given his record of robust commentary and debate in the House, he would not want it any other way.

The point about protest can be dismissed relatively comprehensively. The Member who spoke previously, Mr Carroll, who does have a strong record of protest, registered his view that the Bill does not involve a significant infringement of the right to protest, and I agree with that for one very big reason. The Bill does not stop anyone protesting any issue. It does not stop anyone who objects to abortion provision in Northern Ireland or anywhere else protesting, but it stops them harassing women outside premises where either abortion services or advice on whether to seek an abortion are available. Let us bear in mind that this is not just about women who are going to access a termination itself but is about women, who are often very vulnerable, often young and often in very vulnerable positions, seeking advice and information. It is about preventing that harassment. Let us be absolutely clear that it does not infringe on anyone's right to protest anywhere else. If the issue is about the legal provision for abortion, I am strongly pro-choice and believe that, long before now, we should have provided in law for women's ability to seek full reproductive healthcare. However, if people want to protest that outside Parliament Buildings any day of the week, they are entitled to do it. That is the place to do it, because we are people who make laws. That is totally different from putting distressing, lurid images in front of people who are seeking services.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for giving way. Will he agree that the Bill is quite limited on where those posters, images, placards and whatever can be displayed? My understanding of the Bill is that the very offensive, damaging and traumatising images that adorn Belfast city centre and other places will still be allowed to exist, as much as I have deep opposition to their traumatic and offensive images.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Exactly. He is right, and, of course, that is why the Bill calls them "safe access zones". It is not about preventing the right to protest on that issue at all.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I will give way in one second.

I also want to address one other point that Mr Allister made, which is about the chilling effect on what he called the provision of "motherly" advice or close family members advising young women or trying to persuade young women not to go through with the procedures. Women in those positions are very vulnerable, but the idea that the Bill prevents any family member or friend having conversations or even, as he says, yes, suggesting that they do not proceed with the termination is completely false. There is nothing whatsoever in the Bill that prevents any family member talking to their family member. I will happily give way if Mr Allister can tell me where it outlaws people having conversations with family members.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Clause 6(2) refers to anyone who seeks to influence someone who is in one of these zones. That could well be the mother of a child. If it happens in the zone, you are not allowed to influence, no matter how motherly that influence might be.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I am glad that I let the Member make that intervention where he referred to the act happening inside one of the zones. Presumably, if the person is their mother, they either share the same house or can meet in a different premises that is not outside a clinic.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Member for giving way. I point out to other Members that in clause 4(b), which deals with protected persons, that is covered by:

"accompanying a person described in paragraph (a), at the invitation of that person".

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for that welcome intervention. It is absolutely critical to nail this point. There is nothing at all in the Bill that prevents family members having conversations with people who are seeking terminations. It simply creates safe access zones, which prevent women being harassed. Let us be clear about this: lots of the actions go beyond harassment at times. They are deeply unsettling and deeply threatening. Some of the most lurid and, at times, pretty exploitative and unpleasant images are used to intimidate and harass women.

I will not go through all the clauses in detail because others have done, but, as I said, I have gone through the Bill and am comfortable that it properly balances the right of women to seek reproductive healthcare —.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I will give way in a second, because I promised to, Ms Bunting.

The Bill properly balances the right of women to seek reproductive healthcare and the right to freedom of expression and protest. Those are both rights that need to be upheld.

It is also worth saying that the right of women to seek reproductive healthcare has been denied in this society for decades. It ill behoves those who now complain about the right to freedom of assembly, free speech and protest to talk about rights, given the systematic denial of women's rights to seek the basic reproductive healthcare that existed in other parts of, yes, the United Kingdom. Some of those same people are very good at reminding us about the rights attached to citizenship of the United Kingdom, but they did not want rights for women in this place for a long time. Women now have those rights, and they should be able to access them without harassment and threat.

I will give way to Ms Bunting.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order. The Business Committee has arranged to meet at 1.00 pm. I, therefore, propose, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time. There will then be a question for urgent oral answer. After that, we will return to the debate, and I will invite Mr O'Toole to continue his contribution.

The debate stood suspended. The sitting was suspended at 1.01 pm.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Stalford] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Economy

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Questions 4 and 13 have been grouped.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

1. Miss Woods asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on his Department's work to implement the Executive commitments in New Decade, New Approach (NDNA) that relate to employment rights. (AQO 2565/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

My Department's economic recovery action plan continues to help us to protect jobs and keep people in employment. As we continue to reopen our economy, protecting jobs is my immediate priority. Members will agree that that is an important employment protection in its own right.

In terms of employment law, my Department has, of necessity, prioritised those actions that protect those most immediately affected by the pandemic. To date, those have included making legislation to ensure that family-related leave, redundancy and other statutory payments for employees were based on normal pay, rather than furlough pay. My Department also legislated to extend to all workers vital health and safety protections that previously applied only to employees. Looking ahead, my focus is on progressing the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill. That will be an important new employment right for parents who sadly suffer the loss of a child or stillbirth.

I am aware of commitments made in New Decade, New Approach that relate to employment rights. The unprecedented impact of the COVID crisis has meant it has simply not been possible to progress all of those. While Northern Ireland already has a robust framework of employment rights, my Department will consider those issues as part of a wider review of employment rights issues in the next mandate.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer, but the New Decade, New Approach agreement stated that:

"the Executive should commit to becoming a Living Wage employer",

ban zero-hours contracts and introduce an:

"Age, Goods and Facilities and Services Bill"

to ensure that no worker is discriminated against because of their age. Does the Minister agree with me that a 17-year-old doing the same job as a 24-year-old should be paid the same wage? When can Members expect to scrutinise the age, goods and facilities and services Bill that will ensure that no worker is discriminated against because of their age?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I certainly understand the points that the Member has made, and I hope that she can understand the difficulties that we have had in progressing some of this legislation during this mandate as a result of the huge amount of time that was taken up dealing with the crisis and the immediate issues that we faced.

In particular, I am aware of the commitments that were made in relation to zero-hours contracts. The huge upset caused by the pandemic slowed those down. Although flexibility in the labour market can have a positive benefit for many workers and businesses, there are clearly instances where the misuse of contracts like those can be deeply unfair to workers. I will want to give detailed consideration to this matter. At this stage, any actions to regulate the use of zero-hours contracts could only be taken forward following a public consultation and the approval of any new legislation by the Assembly.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

It is very disappointing to see a lack of legislation coming through from the Minister with regard to workers' rights. Minister, as I understand it, your party colleagues and previous Ministers refused to engage directly with or meet NICICTU, which represents 250,000 workers here. Will you commit, if you have not already, to meeting NICICTU to hear what improvements in employment legislation can be brought forward in this and the next mandate?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I hope that the Member will recognise that we have not been able to make the progression on some of the employment issues in this mandate that we had hoped to, again, because of the COVID crisis. I am always happy for either myself or my officials to meet those who want to discuss potential legislative changes. If invitations are received, I or my officials will be happy to attend.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Minister, you spoke about workers on zero-hours contracts. There are around 11,000 people on zero-hours contracts in the North with no certainty about their income or hours. You said that there is a commitment to addressing that in the New Decade, New Approach agreement and that a public consultation will need to be done in order for legislation to be changed. I intend to introduce a private Member's Bill (PMB) on the issue. I have done the public consultation. Will you give a commitment to supporting my private Member's Bill when it comes to the House?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

As I said, not only do we need to do our public consultation but other work needs to be carried out. It is a New Decade, New Approach commitment, but I am of the view that the time taken up dealing with the COVID pandemic made it difficult for us to progress it. I am sure that it will be at the top of the agenda in the next mandate, however.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

Minister, you touched on the effects that the pandemic is having on workers. When will we see a change to the "Work from home" message? Never mind the economic effects in our town and city centres, working from home is having an effect on many workers' mental health.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Absolutely. I have continued to raise the issue with Executive colleagues. It is important that the guidance reflect where our businesses are at the moment. A lot of them want to begin a phased return to the workplace. I certainly do not believe it to be the case that 100% of businesses want to send office staff back for 100% of the time. When it comes to office working, we will continue to see hybrid working in place for some time. Although productivity has remained high among those who are working from home, creativity is damaged through not being able to interact with other people in the workplace. It can be particularly difficult for those who are starting a new job and have to do so by working from home. It is a different matter for those already working for a company.

Numerous companies that I met have impressed on me that they want to see a change to that guidance. I am pleased that, on Thursday, the Executive agreed that, with appropriate mitigations, a gradual increase in blended working would be reasonable. That is the point at which most businesses that are looking for the guidance to be changed are. As I said, they do not want everybody to go back at once, but they do want the opportunity to begin the process of bringing people back to the workplace, and I certainly support that.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Minister, what action are you and your Department taking to introduce a low pay commission for Northern Ireland?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The Member will be aware of the commitments in New Decade, New Approach on national minimum wage powers and the potential devolution of those powers. Minimum wage issues are currently a reserved matter, and that is an issue for the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. The national minimum wage is currently set on a UK-wide basis, but it is regularly reviewed.

The UK Government have said that their intention is for national minimum wage rates to achieve the target of 60% of median earnings by 2024. We have not yet been able to conduct an assessment of the implications of devolving those powers. It is an issue that we will want to look at, however. I am encouraged by wage growth in Northern Ireland and by the skills and talents of our people that contribute to better jobs coming to Northern Ireland, but we need to focus on making sure that everybody gets the pay that they deserve.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

2. Ms Hunter asked the Minister for the Economy to outline the preparations that his Department made to address the shortage of HGV drivers as a result of Brexit. (AQO 2566/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

If you pick up any newspaper, you will see that there is a shortage of HGV drivers in, for example, Germany, Poland, the Republic of Ireland and even the United States of America. Some of the countries affected are still in the European Union, while some have never been in the European Union. I therefore ask the Member why she attributes the shortage to Brexit, when it is happening in countries right across Europe and, indeed, the world.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for questioning me at Question Time. When I spoke to HGV and LGV representatives on the ground, they raised their concerns with me, and that is why I ask the question on their behalf.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I did not get a question there, but I am certainly happy to outline the situation across Europe. There are estimated shortages of 124,000 drivers in Poland, between 45,000 and 60,000 drivers in Germany and around 43,000 in France. It is not a Brexit issue. In fact, the one way in which Brexit affects the situation here in Northern Ireland — we have had representations from people saying so — is through the additional paperwork and hassle caused by the protocol. Those additional burdens are causing a lot of people not to want to have to make the journey across the Irish Sea. If we want to address that issue, addressing the protocol would be helpful.

We have to focus on the fundamental issues as well, which are largely the pay and working conditions of those who operate in that sector. If we want to tackle the problem, we have to understand it in the first place. That means focusing on the issues that actually matter.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Minister, in a letter of 27 September to the AERA Committee, you wrote:

"the Home Office has to date shown no appetite for any relaxation of visa rules".

That is the problem emanating from Brexit. In light of your words, do you agree that the British Government have no plans to fix the crisis, which not only affects HGV drivers but is a problem for a number of industries, particularly the agri-food industry here in the North? It results from a hard Brexit immigration policy. Do you agree that the British Government care more about that than the economy in the North of Ireland?

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Before I call the Minister, I remind Members that half an hour is available for questions. Please, can we have questions, not speeches?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The Member fails to understand what I said to Ms Hunter, which was that a combination of issues is causing the problems that we see. All those issues, in all the ways in which they have been manifested, need to be addressed. From speaking to the industry, first and foremost, we want working conditions to improve so that it becomes an attractive industry for people to come into in the first place.

To address wider labour market issues, yes, flexibility is needed in the system. I want to see that, and the AERA Minister and I have engaged in correspondence with the Home Secretary about it. We need to understand, however, that a combination of issues is causing the problems in the wider labour market. For HGV drivers in particular, working conditions are the problem, and those are what we need to address.

Stephen Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Given that it is, indeed, a global problem, does the Minister agree that one practical, local solution to help to address the backlog of HGV driver tests would be to amend the trailer test requirements in line with those in Great Britain? That would help to free up more examiners to carry out the main tests rather than the small trailer tests. Unfortunately, the Infrastructure Minister swiftly dismissed that idea last week.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Yes, we could take that action, and it would be one remedy to some of the problems that we face. In the year before the pandemic, 2019, around 3,000 HGV tests took place. In 2020, obviously because of the pandemic, the number was, I think, under 300. That was a massive reduction in an industry in which there was already a decrease in the number of drivers coming forward. Testing is one part of it. Testing has increased over the past few months, but we are dealing with such a big backlog of people whom we are trying to bring forward that we need to consider all options. I agree with the Member's point, however.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

At last week's Infrastructure Committee meeting, a major local haulier indicated that east-west payloads on trailers were at only 50% to 60% of the trailer capacity and that, frequently, journeys required an extra overnight stop because of the bureaucracy associated with the protocol. What assessment has been made of the additional cost to business in Northern Ireland of moving goods from GB? Furthermore, how many additional HGV drivers are required to meet the demands of the transport industry?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Any fettering of trade, any additional paperwork and any additional bureaucracy leads to trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland being slowed down, so of course it will add cost. I have spoken to business owners who have had to take on extra employees to deal with the mountains of paperwork that they have to fill out that they did not have to fill out prior to the protocol. Of course costs will increase as a result of the protocol arrangements, and of course they make it more difficult for those in the haulage industry. It is wrong for others to dismiss the protocol as not being a factor in the haulage industry's problem because it is contributing to it. It is completely understandable that some people in the industry will say that they do not want to have to deal with the potential extra overnight stays, which the Member mentioned. That is why the issue needs to be addressed.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Perhaps the Minister could urge Mr McGuigan to keep up, because on 25 September Her Majesty's Government announced an extra 500 visas for HGV drivers. Is there any allocation to Northern Ireland? How will we see a ripple effect from that?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

My understanding is that it is done on a UK-wide basis and that there is not a particular allocation for Northern Ireland.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

3. Mr Harvey asked the Minister for the Economy whether his Department will consider increasing the wage of apprentices due to the increased cost of living. (AQO 2567/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The national minimum wage, including that for apprenticeships, is a reserved matter, with policy responsibility resting with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. The national minimum wage apprenticeship rate does not apply to higher level apprentices. My focus, however, is on growing high-quality apprenticeships, including higher level apprenticeships that lead to high-quality, well-paid and resilient careers.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

Minister, what steps is your Department taking to encourage more people into trade apprenticeships?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for his question. My Department has put in place a package of financial support to encourage employers to return apprentices from furlough through to successful completion of their framework and recruit new apprentices. Information on the apprenticeship return, retain and result scheme and new apprentice recruitment schemes can be found on nibusinessinfo.co.uk.

Employer-led sectoral partnerships operate across various sectors of the economy and are central to the development of the apprenticeship frameworks, from level 2 to level 8, to ensure that they meet the current and future needs of industry in Northern Ireland. For example, the level 3 apprenticeship in IT was recently expanded to include pathways in cybersecurity and digital forensics to reflect the growing demand for skilled workers in those fields. In addition to that, my officials continue to work on extending all age criteria to non-economic priority sectors and the development of public-sector apprenticeships.

Caoimhe Archibald (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

The Minister will be aware that one of the things impacting on the cost of living is the big increase in energy costs, which are associated mostly, although not solely, with the increase in gas prices. Further price increases are predicted in the near future. Does the Minister agree that we need to see a greater intervention from the British Government through funding that is commensurate with the increases to mitigate the rise in the cost of living for workers, families and businesses?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Absolutely. I recognise the impact that those world market increases are having not only on businesses in Northern Ireland but on consumers. I am concerned about the impact that that will have, especially as time goes on. We are certainly in a very uncertain time. Later this week, I will meet my counterpart, the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.

We can also do things here to help. The Department for Communities takes the lead on fuel poverty issues, and, in my Department, we focus on energy efficiency, which is really important. We should all be aware of that because using less energy will contribute to lower energy costs.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

I support any call for additional apprenticeships and for them to pay a fair living wage.

There appears, from speaking to businesses and apprentices currently in the system, to be a backlog because those who have completed the paper-based educational side of the apprenticeship are unable to finish the vocational one due to the impacts of COVID. Are you aware of the issue, Minister? What is being done to alleviate the backlog?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

We are aware of the issue. We want to encourage people to take on apprentices and make sure that they are able to complete their training. The apprenticeship return, retain and result scheme was developed to reduce the risk of apprentices being made redundant. In total, £3,700 per apprentice is available to employers over three incentive payments. The first one is the return element of £500 per furloughed apprentice. The retain element is a maximum of £2,000 over the course of four months, and the result element is £1,200 for successful full framework achievement of a returned apprentice.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

As I said at the start, questions 4 and 13 have been grouped.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

4. Mrs Cameron asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on the holiday at home voucher scheme. (AQO 2568/17-22)

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

13. Mr Storey asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on the delivery of the economic recovery action plan. (AQO 2577/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I wish to group questions 4 and 13 together for answer and avail myself of the extra minute to answer.

It has been eight months since the launch of the economic recovery action plan and six months since the Executive agreed to provide an additional £287 million to help to deliver the actions that are set out in the plan. During that time, we have continued to listen to feedback and work collaboratively with our delivery partners. Thanks to that strong collaborative effort, 40 of the 58 actions that we had planned to do at the time of the launch are now in progress or have been completed.

The holiday at home voucher scheme is one of the remaining 18 actions that are yet to be implemented. The proposal was focused on stimulating demand from residents to holiday at home in support of the local tourism industry. The economic recovery action plan recognised at the outset the need to adapt to changing economic conditions. The suitability of the intervention is being considered in the context of the levels of consumer demand that were experienced over the summer and the impact of the high street scheme.

The high street scheme is another key, Spend Local component of the plan. It is aimed at reorientating people towards our local retailers and hospitality and leisure sectors. The scheme opened to applicants on 27 September. I am delighted with the unprecedented number of people who have already applied. I am also delighted that the first cards have issued in the past week. That is great news for all our local businesses that will benefit from the roll-out of the scheme.

I hope that Members will agree that significant progress has been made against the actions that were set out in the economic recovery action plan. It also important that the plan continues to evolve. We have been able to scale up our offering of support where the demand and benefit has been high. We have also been able to add new actions to aid the economic recovery journey.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. The tourism sector has been one of the sectors hardest hit by the pandemic. What steps is the Minister taking to help the sector to move forward?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The proposed holiday at home voucher is just one of a number of steps that we have taken to support the tourism sector and help it to recover from the effects of the pandemic. Those steps were set out in the tourism recovery action plan, which was launched by my predecessor, Diane Dodds. Additional funding has been provided to support Tourism NI and Tourism Ireland for heavyweight marketing campaigns throughout the United Kingdom and Ireland to stimulate demand for short breaks and areas of high-value tourism, such as business events, golf and cruises.

I have also supported significant funding programmes for a number of sectors across the industry, and for product and industry development. In addition, we are supporting the tourism and hospitality sector through a range of skills programmes and interventions, including masterclasses, leadership and management training, skills-focused offerings for managers in those important sectors, and a new skills intervention programme. All those training and development actions have been designed in partnership with local hospitality and tourism representatives and business leaders.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far and for the work that he has done to ensure that the issues of concern to us all in our constituencies, particularly in terms of economic recovery, are addressed.

In an earlier comment, he mentioned the changing environment. Obviously, we are subject to the current crisis in fuel prices and so on, as we have heard about. What flexibility is there in the schemes to ensure that the Department can respond in a way that is meaningful to the economy?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The first thing to highlight is that we worked on the economic recovery action plan with those in the industry in order to make sure that we were responsive to their needs. I have just noticed that my predecessor is behind me. She will know about the work that went into the plan. The furlough scheme was hugely important in keeping people in employment, but we know that it has now passed. We are continuing to work to make sure that people are supported as much as possible. A number of things have been put into action to support jobs and improve skills so that people can be not only reskilled but upskilled. The skills focus programme, for example, is offering fully funded upskilling for employees, including those who were furloughed. We also provide opportunities to help people reskill, change careers and move into new and better job opportunities. That is why the plan is so important and why we are working in collaboration with industry and business leaders and representatives to make sure that it is agile and responsive to their needs.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

In your answers, Minister, you discussed the holiday at home voucher scheme, and you said that you would consider it again. When it was first announced, concerns were raised about its delivery on a first come, first served basis, as that may discriminate against low-income families and those with poor internet connectivity. Have you addressed those concerns?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

It is certainly the case that we will not be able to give or offer the holiday at home voucher to everybody in Northern Ireland as we have done with the Spend Local card. It is difficult to find a way to give out these vouchers other than on a first come, first served basis. I do not think that — I certainly hope that this is not the case — someone's background or whether they are in an area of advantage or disadvantage would prohibit them being able to apply.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

When does the scheme go live? What are the exact qualifying criteria?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

We are still working with industry to try to find the optimal time for its release. We have the Spend Local card in place, and we do not think that it would be appropriate to bring this one in at the same time. We will be working with industry to work out when the scheme can come in to bring the maximum benefit. Where eligibility is concerned, we are proposing that the vouchers will be able to be used at accommodation, attractions and experiences that are registered with the We're Good to Go scheme.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

One of the business sectors that has often been in contact with me is travel agents. They have been badly affected by the pandemic. What does the Minister's Department propose to do to assist them in the months ahead?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

A number of representatives of that industry have been in contact with me. The Executive put through a really useful scheme for that industry that was administered earlier this year. It would be appropriate to extend that scheme. The First Minister and deputy First Minister have the details of the scheme, having previously administered it, and I would certainly be supportive of any proposal that would help the sector at this time. Tourism was among the first sectors to be impacted and the last to be able to recover. That is even more the case for travel agents here in Northern Ireland. It is, therefore, appropriate that we consider how that extra support can be given to them.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

5. Ms P Bradley asked the Minister for the Economy whether his Department has considered increasing the number of places on the higher-level apprentices supply chain and logistics programme. (AQO 2569/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

My Department's apprenticeship provision, including higher-level apprenticeships, is demand-led. Cohort numbers are based on forecasts submitted by training providers. Where demand exceeds the approved numbers, training providers can contact my Department to request additional places. To date, any such request has been approved.

My Department has been working hard to grow apprenticeship provision that is in line with the needs of our economy. The introduction of the new higher-level apprenticeship in supply chain and logistics, which is delivered by Northern Regional College, is testament to that. Another new higher-level apprenticeship in transport and supply chain management has been approved for delivery by South West College, which will support employers in that locality. The new higher-level apprenticeships will deliver the relevant skills and provide high-quality career opportunities in an important and growing sector.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I will allow a five-second supplementary question and a 10-second response.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

Will it be open to those who want to change careers?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

We hope that we can progress that.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Well done. Excellent. That is more like it. Chop-chop. We now move on to topical questions.

Áine Murphy (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T1. Ms Á Murphy asked the Minister for the Economy to outline how many premises in Fermanagh have been provided with a full broadband connection through Project Stratum, given that the Fermanagh area continues to suffer from the digital divide, and a lack of decent broadband is disruptive to workers, businesses and students. (AQT 1671/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Unfortunately, I do not have those figures here. I am delighted that we were able to allocate £165 million to Project Stratum as a result of the Democratic Unionist Party and Conservative Party confidence-and-supply agreement. I will be happy to write to the Member with the details of the number of properties.

Áine Murphy (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I have received calls from deeply frustrated constituents whose premises will, unfortunately, miss out on the Project Stratum roll-out. In total, 572 eligible premises in Fermanagh and South Tyrone will miss out. That is the highest figure across all constituencies. When will the premises that have been left behind by the project have their broadband connection improved?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I hope that the Member will understand that I do not have dates that I can give to her today. I understand how important the issue is to many people living in rural areas, and I understand how it contributes to disadvantage. If we want to make sure that people are prepared for the jobs of the future, it is absolutely essential that we have a digital spine in Northern Ireland and that people have digital capability. That is why I have been working with the Minister of Education to see how we can make ICT compulsory at GCSE level. It is essential that our young people have those skills. I recognise, however, that it is very difficult for a young person to build those up if they do not have the broadband access at home. My Department is doing everything that it can to make sure that we achieve that.

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

T2. Ms Ferguson asked the Minister for the Economy for his assessment of the rising cost of energy, particularly the increase in wholesale gas prices. (AQT 1672/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

As I have already said, I am very concerned about the increases that we have seen in the cost of energy. That has a direct implication for not only consumers and individuals in Northern Ireland but businesses. It affects the cost of doing business, and that is passed on to the consumer. I share the sentiments that have been expressed across the House about the impact that that will have on families and businesses right across Northern Ireland.

Ciara Ferguson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his response. How do the Minister and his Department intend to respond to the rising costs of fossil fuels, including oil, which many people here rely on to heat their homes, and the impact of the costs, which are passed on to people in their homes and/or businesses?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The Executive can respond in a number of ways. As I said to other Members, the Department for the Economy has responsibility for energy efficiency, and I want to make sure that we do all that we can for the population and for businesses to conserve our energy and be as efficient as possible. However, the responsibility for fuel poverty rests with the Department for Communities. When I was made aware of the increases in the costs of gas and electricity that were coming, I raised those issues directly at the Executive with the Minister for Communities, Deirdre Hargey. I look forward to seeing what proposals she can bring forward to help to alleviate the problem.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

T3. Ms McLaughlin asked the Minister for the Economy how many jobs he has announced in Derry this year, given that today’s employment stats show that 5·9% of working-age adults, including 7·6% of working-age men, in Derry are on a claimant count register. (AQT 1673/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The Member will be aware of the work that Invest NI does in her constituency. She will be aware that there is a regional office there that is working hard to attract investment — with considerable success, I have to say. In the past five years, the —.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Sorry, Minister. The issue is that —.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

No, no. The Member has asked her question, and the Minister's answer will be heard. The Member has the opportunity to come back to the Minister with a supplementary question, and I have no doubt that she will.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I did not hear what she said anyway, but I will continue.

In the past five years, the assistance per head of population in the Member's council area has been £427. That is £427 per head of population. For context, that is above Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council; Ards and North Down Borough Council; Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon Borough Council; Causeway Coast and Glens Borough Council; Fermanagh and Omagh District Council; Lisburn and Castlereagh City Council; Mid and East Antrim Borough Council; Mid Ulster District Council; and Newry, Mourne and Down District Council. In fact, only one place has attracted more assistance per head, and that is Belfast. In fact, one of the lowest amounts has gone to Mid and East Antrim, so, if anybody should be complaining, it is me.

I look forward to the Member's supplementary question.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Minister, you still did not answer my question: I asked how many job announcements you had made this year. You did not answer that. However, you have announced 1,600 jobs in Belfast this year. Why have the DUP Minister and his predecessors constantly neglected Foyle for jobs and university provision? What are you going to do about the unemployment crisis in my constituency? What is your response? How many jobs have you announced? You are not answering the questions; you are making snide remarks —

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member will resume her seat.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

— and being arrogant towards the people of Foyle —

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Order.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

— who do not deserve it.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Order. That is completely unacceptable behaviour. The Member has asked no fewer than five or six questions. When a Member is asked to resume their seat, they resume their seat. The Minister can answer whichever questions he chooses from the vast catalogue that was provided.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I take exception to the claim that I made any snide remark. I have simply set out the situation, which is that there has been an incredible amount of investment in the Member's constituency. It is second only to Belfast in terms of council areas. By the way, it is not the DUP or any DUP Minister who decides where jobs go; investors do that. As the Member can see, we have provided assistance there. I suggest to the Member that perhaps her approach is not helping very much and that she might want to work with others to address the issue.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

T4. Mr Durkan asked the Minister for the Economy for an update on his Department’s consideration of the business case for a support scheme for the coach and private tour industry, as set out in its tourism recovery action plan. (AQT 1674/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Of course, when it comes to the coach industry, the question would be best addressed to the Minister for Infrastructure as the Minister responsible.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The industry is referred to specifically in the Department for the Economy's tourism recovery action plan, hence I have asked the Minister the question. Previously, the Infrastructure Minister has had to step in to support the industry. It is my understanding that the Infrastructure Minister awaits a response from the Economy Minister on what his Department's plans are now. Does the Minister intend to respond to the Infrastructure Minister? Will he do so quickly, so that the industry can get the clarity and the support that it requires?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

As the Member said, the Minister for Infrastructure provided that support in the past, and, as a result, I think that she will be best placed to do so again. She has the details and the data and is best placed to deliver. I hope that that answer is helpful to the Member. I appreciate his tone and approach, which is a lot more conducive to business than that of his constituency colleague who came before.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

T5. Mr Harvey asked the Minister for the Economy to outline his plans for tourism recovery. (AQT 1675/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The tourism action plan has been well received by the industry, but, first and foremost, we need to continue to see an easing of the restrictions that are still in place, because they create a drag. I spent yesterday with Tourism Ireland. It was good of that body to set up a meeting with tour operators, as I was able to hear at first hand about the impact that the restrictions continue to have, particularly on tourist confidence, not just in the UK but further afield. The first thing to do is to make sure that we do as much as we can to restore that confidence in Northern Ireland.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

Minister, I am sure that you have lots of plans for future engagement with the tourism sector.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Absolutely. The key to the Department's successes over the past number of months has been collaboration with the sector. We had fantastic collaboration with industry on 10X Economy, and that created a really successful strategy document. It is the same with the energy strategy and the tourism recovery action plan. I take that collaboration very seriously, and I want to listen to what people say. One of the benefits of Northern Ireland being a smaller place is that it gives us the ability to be agile in responding to the needs of the sector. It is really important that we are responsive in that way and that we listen to the sector's concerns. In particular, it was useful for me to hear yesterday about the emerging markets that are coming to Northern Ireland, especially from the Middle East. We can see the emerging trends, so it is about working with those partners so that we, as a Government, can best respond to them.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

T6. Mr McGlone asked the Minister for the Economy whether, in relation to the Spend Local prepaid card, he is aware of any technical difficulties with the software that is used at payment terminals. (AQT 1676/17-22)

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

There have been isolated instances of people not being able to use their card in certain businesses, largely the larger multinationals that are registered in GB, because of a coding issue with the card. That number has been very small, however, and we have found a fix.

I am absolutely delighted with the success of the scheme so far. I can confirm that, as of yesterday, 161,000 cards had been delivered and another 50,000 were ready to be shipped. I can also confirm to the House that, although I have no special privileges, I have been able to get my Spend Local card. It is a little smaller than the one that I was going around with in the summer, but it is great that we will have the cards delivered across Northern Ireland to be spent in local independent retailers, on hospitality, on entertainment, on leisure and on other services. Over 1·2 million people have now applied, and over one million of them have been verified. That is good news for the businesses across Northern Ireland that suffered so much during the lockdown.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for that. I go back to the question of making sure that the software on the terminals is being updated. Can he advise what facility there is in the Department if businesses require additional information in order to access the required updates?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The changes will be made automatically. It is an issue not with the card terminals but with the coding. As always, however, if people have issues or concerns about anything to do with the high street stimulus scheme, there is a helpline and an email address that they can contact, and their concerns will be addressed.