English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill
Public Bill Committee, 16 September 2025.
(Morning)
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Before we begin, I have a couple of preliminary announcements. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent. Just to be a real Grinch, tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take these matters formally and without debate. Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and will be circulated to members by email. I will first call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in her name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee of the Bill.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make any declaration of interest in connection with the Bill?
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I am a member of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council.
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
I declare that I used to be a parish councillor and, until March, a district councillor for Stratford-on-Avon.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
As per my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, I am a director of Localis think-tank, which has contributed evidence. I am also a parliamentary vice-president of the Local Government Association and for London Councils, which has also submitted evidence.
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I am a former councillor and I know lots of the witnesses from my previous role leader of Broxbourne council.
Maya Ellis (Labour, Ribble Valley)
I declare, as per my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, that I am a parish councillor.
Elsie Blundell (Labour, Heywood and Middleton North)
My husband is a sitting councillor on Rochdale borough council.
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Apologies for having a second go, but my husband is also a sitting councillor and I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
In case we do not get to it this afternoon, Donna Jones, one of the witnesses, is a personal friend of mine.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Thank you all for your forthright honesty. We will begin by hearing oral evidence from Councillor Sam Chapman-Allen, chair of the District Councils’ Network, and Justin Griggs, head of policy and communications for the National Association of Local Councils. I do not want to try to stop you before you have even started, but the panel will conclude at 9.55 am.
Examination of Witnesses
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Would the witnesses like to say a few words about themselves?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q This is a question for both of our witnesses. The title of the Bill is the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill. Both of you have very deep roots at community level in representing the voices of local people. Could you set out your views about how the measures in the Bill will impact on the ability of elected parish, district and borough councillors to exercise that power, control and voice on behalf of those residents and communities?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q Thank you very much to both the witnesses. It has been a helpful start. Councillor Chapman-Allen, you referred to the role of your constituent authorities in the planning system. We know that a big focus of the Government is around an increase in housing. What impact will that have on the ability of the overall system to deliver the necessary number of planning permissions and the necessary strategic planning—undertaking this extensive reorganisation, which involves, essentially, the abolition of most of those planning authorities at the same time?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q One of the issues that we aired in the debate when this subject first emerged on the Floor of the House was that at the Government’s chosen footprint of 500,000 minimum population, the Bill implies the abolition of 90% of the local elected representatives in each of those areas. I know the cross-party concerns about the risk of losing that community voice. With your experience at community, district and borough level, it would be helpful for you to spell out what you think is the impact of that potential democratic deficit, especially on contested issues such as planning.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q My first question is for Councillor Chapman-Allen. First, I should put on the record that the 500,000 number that has been cited is not fixed. The Government will prioritise making sure that there are clear links and that we have that democratic basis, so that communities feel connected to their local institutions. That is a priority for us and we will proceed on that basis.
Strategic authorities are made up of constituent local authorities, and at their best, where they work, it is based on partnership. Can Councillor Chapman-Allen give the Committee examples from among his membership, where strategic authorities already operate, of that collaboration among the constituent authorities, which will always have a key role, working in tandem with the mayor to deliver for communities?
I also have a question for Mr Griggs. The role of neighbourhoods and the connection between communities and the places where elected representatives serve is fundamental to what we are trying to do with the Bill. The part of the legislation on neighbourhood governance is looking to bolster and strengthen that. What are your views on how that will create new opportunities not only for community partnership working but, critically, for community voice and power?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Sorry to interrupt, Mr Griggs, but you are quite quietly spoken. Could you please speak up?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Order. I am sorry to intervene but unfortunately we are having some audio problems and need to stop until they can be resolved. It should be a few minutes.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We are back in public session. I apologise to members of the Committee, our witnesses and members of the public that we have had to relocate because of sound problems. The plan is to add the missed time to the end of the sitting, so we will end later than 11.25 am. We will allocate the correct amount of time to this panel, as a number of members of the Committee would very much like to ask you questions.
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
Q My question is for Mr Griggs. With the creation of new strategic authorities, there is a real risk that the voice of rural parishes will be subsumed by the priorities of large urban centres. What changes would you like to see to the Bill to make sure that parish and town councils in rural areas have a guaranteed voice within the new structures?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I am sorry, but this panel will finish at 10.14 am. Seven more Members want to ask questions, and we have six minutes.
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
Q I have a quick follow-up. I see that many parish and town councils are capable and eager to take on more responsibilities and deliver services, but I also see that some struggle to recruit enough councillors, especially in rural areas. How should the Bill recognise the different challenges that parish and town councils face with recruitment and building up resources?
Maya Ellis (Labour, Ribble Valley)
Q You mentioned how important town and parish councils are, and suggested that you would ideally like to see more parish councils. My question is on the neighbourhood governance proposals in the Bill. What do you make of them? What should they learn from the current structures of the town and parish councils? Based on your earlier comment, do you think that we should not have them, but should be looking at extending parish and town councils?
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Q In more urban areas, particularly those that have districts and do not have town or parish councils—I represent an area that did not have a neighbourhood review and does not have them—there is real potential for losing the civic and cultural identity of a place. Can you talk to what you think needs to change in who is the local face for a town or community?
Sam Carling (Labour, North West Cambridgeshire)
ThisQ is a question for Councillor Chapman-Allen about the balance of powers between councils and strategic authorities in the licensing space. A number of our district and unitary councils, including Peterborough and Huntingdonshire, in the area I represent are grappling with problems of taxi licensing, where taxis are potentially registering in nearby authorities with laxer regimes to avoid standards—
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Order. Sorry, Sam, but if the question is much longer, there will be no time for an answer.
Sam Carling (Labour, North West Cambridgeshire)
Sorry. Would you favour adding provisions to the Bill for strategic authorities to take over licensing powers to deal with that issue?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee and apologise for the disruption.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear evidence from Councillor Bev Craig, Labour group leader and vice-chair at the Local Government Association; Councillor Kevin Bentley, leader of Essex county council and Local Government Association senior vice-chair; and Councillor Matthew Hicks, chair of the County Councils Network. This panel will finish at 10.44 am.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q I have a question on accountability for all three panellists. With the proposals for the new mayoral roles and the reorganisation of local government, a key challenge will be ensuring that the mayor, on a large footprint, is accountable at a local level. There are different systems in place in London and Manchester, for example, which are probably the best-known mayoral authorities at the moment. I would be interested in your reflections on what you think works well, and on what challenges the Government might need to fix in this legislation to ensure the accountability is really effective.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q Councillor Hicks, your point about audit is probably a good entry point for my follow-up question. We are aware that a very large proportion, more than half, of education authorities have a council-killing debt associated with the high needs block in their dedicated schools grant. The Committee has received many representations about the indebtedness of some authorities in areas that are proposed to be part of these mayoral combined authorities. Do you feel that sufficient attention has been given, and that there is sufficient assurance in the system that those debts and deficits will not be a financial barrier to delivering the ambitions that you all share for the new authorities? If so, could you tell us a bit about that? If not, how could that be addressed?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I understand that Councillor Craig has to go fairly soon.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will definitely finish on time, subject to any more technical difficulties.
Maya Ellis (Labour, Ribble Valley)
Q My question is about the difference between the current number of strategic authorities, which are very urban, and the big swathe of coming strategic authorities, which are fairly rural. I am interested in how you see leadership evolving in those different areas. Are there ways in which this Bill needs to be strengthened to account for the different ways that those county and shire areas will be affected by becoming strategic authorities, compared with the urban developments we have had so far?
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Q Good morning, everybody. I want to go back to something that was touched on by the previous panel. We are going through simultaneous restructuring of local government and setting up the strategic authorities, and in her questions the Minister has outlined that the 500,000-people target for LGR was never a hard target; it was a soft target. That is not my recollection of when local authorities were approached in quite a speedy way to make sure we went through the LGR.
My question is for all three of you: has there been a change of emphasis on that target from the early conversations that you had with a Minister, albeit a previous one? Do you think there has been a change in Government emphasis on the size, and how has that added to the confusion and the challenges of setting up these strategic authorities as the Bill goes forward?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Sorry, I don’t want to interrupt, but I have seven Members who want to ask questions and we have about 13 minutes, so perhaps that could give some guidance.
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Q I have a quick follow-up question, particularly to Councillor Hicks: would it be fair to say that the policy on the local government reorganisation is a soft target, certainly, but it was portrayed as a hard target to local authority leaders at the time?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q I have a question for Councillors Bentley and Hicks first on unitarisation, and then, if I may, a question to Councillor Craig on strategic authorities. Obviously you are going through the process of working hard with colleagues to put together a proposal for unitarisation. I am really interested in your perspectives and insights about how you—because we are putting it in the hands of local areas to do the heavy lifting—and we get that right. Critically, we are not doing this for fun; we are doing it because we fundamentally believe it will drive better services and better outcomes. I am interested in your perspectives, from your individual areas, about the sorts of impact that you think we can deliver if we get this right.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q Councillor Craig, obviously Greater Manchester has been at the forefront of devolution and the development of mayoral strategic authorities; I had the pleasure of being there at the outset a decade and a half ago. I am interested in your take on the impact the difference and it has made on your communities and, critically, on the collaboration between constituent authorities and the mayor and the strategic authority. During the last panel, the concern was about the power, onus and importance of constituent authorities. I am interested in how it has worked in practice and what we can learn from that.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
A quick question to Councillor Hicks. In your role as chair of the County Council Network, have you had any discussions with or representations from Konsel Kernow, Cornwall Council? If you have, what is the nature of those discussions in relation to mayoral combined authoritiesQ ?
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Q This is a big question, but I know you need to give a quick answer. I think everyone is agreed, or most of us are agreed, that local government needs to reform urgently. Is this it? What is not in the Bill that should have been if we are going to do this properly? There is still an opportunity for us to do that.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions to this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear evidence from Catriona Riddell, the director of Catriona Riddell & Associates Ltd, and Ion Fletcher, the director of policy for finance and regulation at the British Property Federation. We will end this panel at 11.14 am.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q This question is to both witnesses. There are a number of different elements in the Bill on which you have relevant expertise, but can you give the Committee your view on the impact of the envisaged reorganisation on the planning system? What impact will the measures in the Bill about upward-only rent reviews have?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q I have a question for Mr Fletcher and then a question for both witnesses. You have expressed some reservations and concerns about the upward rent review. Is it fair to say that the position among your members is not unanimous? Mark Allan of Landsec, who I think was the previous president of the organisation, has said that he thinks the changes are favourable, and that the status quo is complex and suboptimal. It would be good to clarify that there is not a single position that thinks this is averse.
Northern Ireland went through a very similar reform about a decade and a half ago. I am interested in your assessment, because most people would look at that property market and think it works well. There was a transition, and it has ended up in a position that, most people would argue, is not just benign and effective but consistent with what we see in other countries. I am interested in your views, and then I will have a question for both of you.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q But if I may, Mr Fletcher, do you recognise that the UK is an outlier? What we are doing is moving to a system that is consistent with other major economies and works well. Commercial investors operate in those systems with no issues.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q We think that strategic planning and the role of strategic authorities within that are quite important—in the context of how we want to “build, baby, build”, to quote my boss, the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government. I am interested in your take on how, if we get this right, it will have an impact on the Bill, and critically, where you think we might need to go further to make sure that we are delivering the buildings and the growth that we need?
Mike Reader (Labour, Northampton South)
CanQ I pick up on upward-only rent reviews? I recognise the points you made about consultation. The intention is primarily to focus on high streets. Do you think, with the way the legislation is written currently, it is focused on that narrow area, or is it broader? Could we see unintended consequences in things like—this is important to my constituency—logistics and advanced manufacturing?
Mike Reader (Labour, Northampton South)
Q As the Minister rightly said, we need to look at international comparators. These provisions were introduced in Ireland in 2010, and although there were very similar worries about an impact on the investment market, there has actually been very little impact. What do you think we can learn from how they are implemented in Ireland? Could the Bill be improved by adopting those learnings?
Mike Reader (Labour, Northampton South)
Q There are floors in Ireland, I think. I just want to ask quickly about planning, because there are new requirements for strategic authorities to set strategic plans and so on. Is the Bill clear enough to make sure that representative planning, representative surveys and so on are used, so that those plans represent the majority and not just the loudest voices?
Elsie Blundell (Labour, Heywood and Middleton North)
Q I have a question for Ms Riddell about housing. In recent years, there has been an erosion of accountability on local housing association boards, with local authority representation diminished. Should local authority members have a more pronounced, or even statutory, role on those boards to bolster democratic accountability, which might enable them to act as a conduit between the board and local people on the topic of local housing stock?
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
Q What consideration should be given to local nature recovery strategies when making planning decisions at a strategic level? How might that work in practice?
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Q I am pleased that you have mentioned the GLA, Ms Riddell, because it relates to a question that I want to ask you both.
Mr Fletcher, you are absolutely right to say that this, as well as local government reorganisation, was not in the governing party’s manifesto. I therefore think that it is right that we try to make the policy work as best we can through scrutiny mechanisms such as this Committee. In London, there are structural and spatial planning powers and business powers that are currently operable and invested in the GLA and the London mayoralty. For example, the GLA has a scrutinising mechanism and a housing role, and the mayor has business retention powers and spatial planning powers.
We have seen housing delivery fall under the current administration in London, and we have seen recent announcements that London is essentially a no-go investment area for many relevant organisations. Given the—I would argue—perceived failure in policy delivery in London, what lessons can we learn when the Government are attempting to replicate a structure in London that is not working elsewhere?
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Q I want to continue down the planning route. You mentioned utility companies earlier; I completely agree that we need to get them around the table. What about the NHS and health services? How well are they are getting around the table at the moment, and what do you think the Bill will do to strengthen that? Lots of people are not necessarily anti-development, but they are anti-development when it does not come with any services that the community needs.
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Q You mentioned earlier that you want to see some powers removed from councils and placed at a strategic level. I am completely against taking powers away from local councils, particularly in planning. Which powers do you think need to be removed from local councils and placed at the strategic mayoral level?
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Q You could currently do what you have just described without the Bill, could you not?
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
But you could do what you have described without the Bill; you do not need a strategic authority for it. If local authorities want to group together and do that under the county model, they could.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear evidence from Nick Plumb, policy director at Power to Change, and Robbie Whittaker, a member of the Football Supporters’ Association national council. This panel, and our morning sitting, will finish no later than 11.44 am.
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Q Welcome to the Committee. Communities will be able to nominate assets of community value that are of economic value. Nick, that is particularly relevant for the community businesses that you support. Can you say a little about how communities could use the new power, and whether there are resources that need to come with that power?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q Thank you for setting out how we are building on the community right to bid and the additional powers that are baked in to the legislation that will generally give communities the power to take over assets. One of the things that we have done a huge amount of work on over the past decade and a bit is building the capacity of our community organisations to be in the position to do this. I am interested in your take on the relationship with the neighbourhood governance powers in the Bill and the extent to which you think that this is an opportunity to build the capacity of some of our community organisations both to take over ownership but, critically, to have voice and power to change their places.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q Mr Whittaker, I want to pick up on the sporting asset of community value measures within the Bill. Obviously, sporting community assets are of huge value to our local communities, and I am interested in your view on whether the measures create a pathway to far greater community control and ownership of these assets.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Your answer, Mr Whittaker, made me consider whether I should declare that I am an AFC Wimbledon season ticket holder and a member of the Dons Trust.
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
Q My question is for Mr Whittaker. I have many grassroots sports clubs in my constituency, which provide youth teams, women’s teams and walking football sessions, so they are fundamental to community wellbeing and inspiring the next generation of sports people. That is especially true in rural areas. The new provisions for sporting assets of community value apply to sports grounds with spectator facilities. Should those provisions be extended to include grassroots sports clubs?
Maya Ellis (Labour, Ribble Valley)
Q Building on what you talked about before, in terms of neighbourhood governance, I am interested in what you feel should or could happen if things go wrong. Interestingly, we heard earlier an opinion that parish councils, for example, should be rolled out, whereas the Bill essentially proposes neighbourhood area committees or such like to be in places where they do not currently have town or parish councils. One of the challenges is that there is not a baked-in democracy and accountability in that. I appreciate that you want allowance of local variation and differences, but if things go wrong or sour in the community, as they sometimes do, how do you propose that we bake in some assurances into the Bill?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. That brings us to the end of the morning session. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm in Committee Room 8, where we are now, to continue taking oral evidence.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from Tracy Brabin, chair of UK Mayors and Mayor of West Yorkshire; Lord Houchen, Metro Mayor of the Tees Valley; and Donna Jones, Hampshire police and crime commissioner and mayoral candidate. We have until 2.40 pm for this panel.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Welcome to our witnesses—all of you are known to most Members here. From your experience running devolved authorities, what are the potential benefits and challenges of the Bill?Q37
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q A fairly straightforward question: what is your view on whether mayoral precepts should be limited? Should there be any constraints on their use to cover some of the debts currently held by some of the authorities that may be merged into what eventually emerge from this process as mayoral combined authorities?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Pithy answers, please.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q Let me start by thanking you for the support, encouragement and enthusiasm for what we are trying to do through the Bill. You are completely right that this is our baseline—our floor—and our ambition as a Government is to build on it. In that spirit, I want to pick up on the right to request that we are introducing through the Bill. I am interested in your views on how we can ensure that the right is as effective as possible in taking us on the journey of empowering our mayors to deliver for their communities.
Sam Carling (Labour, North West Cambridgeshire)
I have a question for the whole panel, but first I would like to come on to something Mayor Brabin just said. I was really pleased you raised the issue of taxi licensing. We have a border problem around my area of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, where taxis register in certain councils because they have laxer standards. Do you think there is a case for adding something to this Bill to give mayoral authorities a role in that licensing process, or at least for making it one of the first things brought forward under the right to requestQ ?
Sam Carling (Labour, North West Cambridgeshire)
Q Thank you; that is really helpful. On to my main question: in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, our mayor announced that he intends to appoint as his planning commissioner a former leader of Peterborough city council, who is still a councillor, although currently in opposition. We have a democratic problem, where we have a commissioner who was denied a mandate, but has been brought in anyway. Is there a question here about how we ensure commissioners are accountable both to the public and to councils?
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
You are about to see that even though there was a south coast derby between Southampton and Portsmouth, we still can talk very politely, Ms Vaz—it was very boring, ending 0-0.Q
Welcome back, Mayor Brabin; I wanted to ask about some of the evidence we heard earlier from the District Councils’ Network. There was a concern that the legislation could undermine some of the traditional links between the public and their parish and town councils. I will ask for a brief answer, because I am aware that there are other Members who want to ask questions. For the two existing mayors, can you give an example of how you have managed to encapsulate the views of town and parish councils to help to guide you through your mayoral term, and whether there are any lessons that could be learned? Donna, have you started to think about how you will encapsulate that and make sure that people are listened to on a ground level politically?
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
I thought you might say that—thank you.
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I am really concerned about the movement of powers from police and crime commissioners to mayors, but more so about the moving of the fire and rescue services, which are given almost a passing mention in the Bill. I am fascinated to hear how you see this, as mayors who are already in place. Strategic authorities will cover multiple counties, multiple fire authorities and multiple police authorities, and all that will be vested in a single person. That feels like a real democratic deficit.Q
How do you understand those different areas? In my area, Wessex, there will be four counties, with two different police authorities and two different fire authorities, and the authority itself. It will all have to line up eventually. I am really concerned about how you can improve services for your residents, because that is what this is all about. It feels very remote when services such as police and fire might be very different in the New Forest compared with the centre of Portsmouth, the North York Moors or one of the cities.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Donna Jones, we have five minutes left for this panel.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We have one minute.
Mike Reader (Labour, Northampton South)
I will be very brief. The first programme has been in areas that were chosen on political consensus. There is a backstop in the Bill so that eventually the Government can form combined mayoral authorities. Do you think that the Bill should be more open to the Government forcing or pushing mayoral authorities where it is in the interest of the region or area? For example, in Northamptonshire, part of the Ox-Cam corridor, we Q have a south midlands devolution deal that fell apart because of political bickering. Should the Government step in when politics fails local people?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted. On behalf of the Committee, I thank all our witnesses for coming and answering the questions. We now move on to our next panel.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Andrew Goodacre, chief executive officer of the British Independent Retailers Association, and Allen Simpson, deputy chief executive of UKHospitality. For this panel we have until 3.10 pm.
Kevin McKenna (Labour, Sittingbourne and Sheppey)
Thank you for coming. I am very interested in the provisions around local growth plans and particularly how they affect your sectors. In the area I represent, Sittingbourne and Sheppey, there has been a feeling that we have been lacking, from the existing local authorities at both tiers, a real focus on growth locally. For instance, on the Isle of Sheppey, they are pulling together a local growth group and a local growth board. That is really important for the sense of place for areas that feel that they have already been overlooked. I am concerned that, in a big devolved settlement, that may still be a problem. I am also curious how that affects areas like the retail and hospitality sectors. Again, they may not be seen as major strategic-level elements of a growth plan, but actually they are fundamental, particularly for local communities. What are your takes on that?Q
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
What examples can the panel provide of effective relationships between retailers, hospitality businesses and local government? Can you also let us know whether those relationships work better at a local level, or can they be managed and led regionally?Q
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Can I just ask you to keep your answers fairly short? We have two very important questioners coming up. I call the Minister.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q Thank you, Ms Vaz. You have both campaigned to remove upward-only rent review clauses. Could you give us a sense of the negative impact that those clauses have had on your members, and, if we remove them, the impact that will have on both your members and the wider economy?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Before you answer, can I ask you to direct your answers to the speaker or the Chair, rather than to each other?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q To follow up on the point that you made around local growth, which is a big driver of everything that we are doing, what things should we think about in the context of local government and powers and resources in order to deal with the huge challenge that we have around reviving our high streets?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q At what level, or by what mechanism, do you think the views of local businesses, particularly smaller businesses, should be captured and used to influence the decision making of the new authorities that will come into being? I was very conscious listening to your descriptions that you very ably depicted some issues that those businesses might face. How do you make sure that the mayors, and the decision makers feeding into those mayors understand what the impact of those decisions will be, and take those views into account?
Maya Ellis (Labour, Ribble Valley)
Both the industries that you represent rely on tourism. One of the things that has come up in discussions that I have had about local government reorganisation is the branding of an area. I just wondered about your thoughts—you have touched on bids and hospitality zones. By way of an example, my area of Ribble Valley is known for food and drink and for weddings. Ribble Valley borough council will disappear in local government reorganisation. One of the biggest fears about that seems to be about the branding of it. We have looked at things such as the English riviera in Torquay, and how they have created a bid to brand that. What are your thoughts on that? Do we have enough mechanisms to protect those brands within the UK, which may disappear as borough council areas, but your industries will still need?Q
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
If there are no further questions from Members, on behalf of the Committee, I thank both our witnesses for their evidence. We will now move on to the next panel.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Gareth Davies, Comptroller and Auditor General at the National Audit Office, and Bill Butler, chair of Public Sector Audit Appointments. For this panel, we have until 3.40 pm.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q I am interested in you giving us an assessment of the current system and the current state of the local audit regime. What your views are on the key benefits of us getting that system working right?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q Thank you, Mr Davies and Mr Butler, for setting out the gravity of the situation, the urgency and need to reform, and how the Local Audit Office is an important step. You both candidly made the point that it is necessary, but not sufficient. I am interested in what key building blocks are needed in addition. Obviously, we need to deal with the backlog—that is a given—but, alongside creating this institution, what are the top three things that the Committee should have in mind in order to deal with the problem we have today?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q I would like to ask you some questions about the risks you outlined in broad terms, and how they play out in the context of the devolution and reorganisation envisaged in the Bill. For the record, I was involved in launching public sector audit appointments some years ago.
In a local authority, there is the collection fund, which essentially covers all the income that it is due to collect, then there are pension schemes, the dedicated schools grant, the housing revenue account and the parking revenue account, where there are slightly variable legal ringfences. All of those pose risks and many of them are impacted by elements of the devolution proposals affecting who will be responsible for decision making and what that revenue might underpin in terms of borrowing or day-to-day expenditure. Will you give us a sense, from your experience, of what the risks are, what the potential opportunities are and where changes are needed to, for example, the ringfences, and your views on the inclusion of the dedicated schools grant in the annual, legal council tax-fixing process, which might help or hinder the proper management of some of those financial risks.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We heard that!
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q I have two questions that follow from that. On that last point, I know that CIPFA has argued that a much higher degree of consistency is needed in the way statutory balances are accounted for, and I am conscious that that can make millions of pounds of difference at an individual local authority level. I am interested in your views about how the new arrangement should or should not seek to constrain decision making in order to improve consistency.
Secondly, in respect of specific funds, in debates around devolution, it is often argued that, for example, there should be freedom to spend the proceeds of the parking revenue account beyond the current constraints—that the revenue, for example, should be used to prop up social care, or whatever it may be, in a way that it simply cannot within the current legal framework. Do you have any views about decisions or tweaks that the Bill should make to those arrangements, based on the risk and assurance issues you have outlined?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q What about the CIPFA guidance point? Can you address that?
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Q You have talked about policy issues, the lack of trust and the suspicion around transparency. I am sure we have all heard assumptions that things are going on in councils. What is your assessment of the possibly complementary role of local public accounts committees sitting alongside the Local Audit Office? Fundamentally, councils, health authorities and education are all intermingled—they are all spending public money. Do you have a view on whether this might be the time to go for that?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Do you agree with Gareth?
Andrew Cooper (Labour, Mid Cheshire)
The Bill will create several new mayoral combined authorities, and we might reasonably expect to see more mayoral development corporations created afterward. In recent years, there have been significant questions about the accountability and transparency of mayoral development corporations. Do you think you have sufficient powers currently? Will the Bill provide sufficient powers for the National Audit Office or the Local Audit Office to scrutinise mayoral development corporations properly, or should it be strengthened to clarify that mayoral development corporations should come under either yourselves or local audit?Q
Andrew Cooper (Labour, Mid Cheshire)
Q Do you believe that this Bill will do that?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
I want to press you slightly on the make-up of audit committees. Mr Davies said that it was not for him to say, but given the varied make-up of councils across the country, I do not think it would be too hard for you to say that an opposition councillor could be the chair, or something along those lines. In your experience, what makes a good audit committeeQ ?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We are going to finish.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you both very much for being the guardians of the public purse. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you again for your time and for all the work you do for us.
Examination of Witness
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Mark Stocks, head of public sector assurance at Grant Thornton UK. For this panel we have until 4 pm, unless we are interrupted by a vote—I am sorry about that, Mr Stocks.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q In the last panel, we got a sense of some of the challenges in the local government audit system. Clearly, multiple organisations currently oversee and regulate the audit sector. I am interested in your views on the impact that has had on the system more broadly. Aligned to that, the Government are introducing a set of local government audit reforms through the Bill. How do you see that impacting the private sector audit landscape?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q And in terms of the interaction with the private sector?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q I have a final question, if I may, Chair. We heard very clearly from the last panel that the reforms that were put in place are necessary but not sufficient, and that we need to think about how we build on things such as skills and capacity. From the perspective of someone at the coalface, what are the things that we need to get right? What should we reflect on as we take through these reforms in the Bill?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q The previous panel addressed some of the complexities of the local government finance landscape, with the different accounts and so on. I am interested in your perspective as someone from the audit sector that receives many of these contracts, first on the challenges involved in skilling up the sector with the necessary knowledge and training. I am also interested in your perspective on the standardisation question. I think we all understand that audit is sometimes more of an art than a science—sometimes the other way round. How do you end up with something where everybody understands what is expected of them, in the context of a high degree of transparency that often is not really there in the commercial sector? How do decisions to deviate from that standard impact on the wider perception of the state of that organisation?
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
Q Do you anticipate any issues in the working relationships between the new Local Audit Office and the local authorities it will audit?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. I will suspend the Committee for 10 minutes.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will continue this session for 10 minutes. We have 10 minutes’ extra time—no penalties.
Sam Carling (Labour, North West Cambridgeshire)
Q We have talked a lot about governance and the need to safeguard how financial procedures work on audit committees. I am interested in the flipside of that—in how we can protect taxpayer money through measures such as those in the devolution White Paper, including local public accounts committees. Could you give us your view on that?
Sam Carling (Labour, North West Cambridgeshire)
Q That is useful. You talked about potentially having only one that perhaps has quite a big remit across the whole country. Do you think that would have enough time to do the work it would need to do, or is there a kind of midway point where perhaps you have regional committees or some other mechanism?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
If there are no further questions, on behalf of the Committee, I thank you for coming to give evidence, Mr Stocks.
Examination of Witnesses
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Zoë Billingham, director of IPPR North, and we welcome back Professor John Denham, professorial research fellow in the department of politics and international relations—that is a long title—at the University of Southampton and director of the Centre for English Identity and Politics. We will have until 4.40 pm for this panel.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q I want to talk a bit about the Bill, and I know you have publicly shown support for the direction of travel. I want to get your views on how important it is for us to be putting strategic authorities and our devolution framework on a statutory footing, in the way that we are for the first time, and what the impacts and implications are for the longevity and momentum that we are trying to create around devolution.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q If I can pick up on the point about scrutiny and accountability, there are two parts to my question. Some evidence has been raised in these sessions about the connection between people and communities and the mayors who serve them. We have had a decade and a half of this experiment, so I am interested in your views on whether the claim of a democratic deficit—which I do not buy—is about something genuine in the experience we have seen.
Secondly, we need to ensure strong scrutiny and accountability for any institution. We heard in the last session about some of the challenges with local government accountability and scrutiny. I am interested in your views on what we need to do to strengthen that and the provisions in the Bill to build on that.
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Hear, hear!
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Could that paper be sent to the secretariat and circulated around the Committee?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q I would like to ask you to enlarge on this subject. The point at which Professor Denham finished was a helpful starting place. I think we all share the desire to see that level of community empowerment. What is very striking, when we compare local government in all its forms in the UK with what is well established in other countries, is how little of it there is, relatively, and how few powers people in local authorities already have. One of the concerns we flagged is that the chosen footprint of half a million envisages, in shire England, the elimination of 90% of existing local councillors in one fell swoop. I am interested in how, in the context of a country that is already massively under-represented at local level, we can address that manifest democratic deficit in this process.
And to come to the point that both of you have touched on, the Bill as drafted assumes power upwards to mayors, and it introduces a raft of powers—in chapter after chapter of the Bill—whereby the Secretary of State will direct the mayor and the authority, requiring them to produce various strategies. In a country that is already very centralised anyway, how do we develop and encourage local leaders to come forward in a context where there will be significantly fewer roles for them to fulfil, and where those roles will be significantly more constrained than they have been used to?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I call Perran Moon.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Meur ras—thank you—Ms Vaz. Dohajydh da—good afternoon. I will declare straightaway that I am Cornish and my question is about Cornwall.Q
In order for Cornwall to access the highest level of devolution, as the Bill is drafted, it requires the Government to breach article 16 of the framework convention for the protection of national minorities. The Cornish are the only people in the UK that have national minority status but do not have access to the highest level of devolution. How flexible should the Government be when determining what powers different types of strategic authorities can exercise? Is there a case for exceptions in places such as Cornwall? I ask that you try to avoid the temptation to talk about identity—we can identify with lots of parts of the country and with football teams and pop bands—and talk more about national minority status.
Kevin McKenna (Labour, Sittingbourne and Sheppey)
Q My question is in a similar vein, building on a lot of the conversation so far. My constituency is an outlier in the south-east of England and in the county of Kent, which is likely to become a devolved authority. Sittingbourne and Sheerness are two properly industrial towns. They really stand out for the amount of manufacturing and manual jobs in the area, compared with the service industries that predominate in the rest of the county and the south-east, and that has a lot of effects. Over the years, a misunderstanding, or ignoring, within the county of Kent of the industrial nature of my towns has strengthened the inequality and the depth of deprivation in certain parts of my constituency.
One of the concerns that has been raised locally is that, by replicating the electoral and political structure of Kent and having Tunbridge Wells and Maidstone, which are very different types of towns, predominate the political nature of the mayoralty, we will just replicate the same problem and our needs in terms of economic development, and therefore social support and social economics, will be overridden. Effectively, we can be categorised as a little bit of the red wall in the south-east of England. One of the dangers to me is that we—
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. Is there a question?
Kevin McKenna (Labour, Sittingbourne and Sheppey)
Sorry, Ms Vaz—there is. What do you think we can do when setting up mayoral authorities to prevent aberrant areas—I say that in a very positive way—within a broader, more homogenous mayoral district from being neglected?
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I want talk about district councils. Lots of councils have gone through unitarisation, and when they come out the other side, lots of them set up area planning committees and delivery teams based on the old district boundaries. What is your view on the savings that might come through that process? I think there are hardly any.Q
On the democratic deficit, we are talking about getting rid of elected authorities. The response from you, Zoë, was, “Well, we can do some more consultation. We can have online meetings and votes at 16,” but how can any of that replicate a free and fair democratic election to a local council?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We can squeeze in one more quick question and answer.
Maya Ellis (Labour, Ribble Valley)
Q I am interested in community empowerment plans and accountability within them. I will read up on them more, but to Zoë’s point, to what extent do you feel that you need to require different communities, so that it is not just the people who shout loudest, and the standard people you go to in a community, who are heard? How do you make sure that the whole breadth of the community is heard?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the allotted time. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you both very much for your erudite evidence.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Richard Hebditch, coalition co-ordinator at the Better Planning Coalition, and Naomi Luhde-Thompson, member of the Better Planning Coalition steering group and director of rights community action at the Better Planning Coalition. We have until 5 pm for this panel.
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Could each of you lay out what you think are the benefits of the Bill from a planning perspective? Are there lessons from London? We just listened to John Denham talking about how there is a gap at London level below the unitaries, but there is nothing in the Bill that is changing the way the boroughs are, and maybe that works; maybe it does not. Can you tell us more about that?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Naomi, do you have anything to add?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Others might. I want to move to duties. We see duties for health and health inequalities in the Bill already. Are there any other duties that you would like to see added, potentially in Committee or at the next stage?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q I have two questions, one at the strategic level and one at the community level. Obviously we are pushing through strategic planning powers for mayors. I am interested in your assessment, given your huge expertise, of whether that is the right function, and what we need to do to ensure that it delivers sustainable development, which is obviously our objective.
At the community level, we obviously want to build in a way that is sustainable, but we need to make sure that there is public consent. I am interested in how we ensure that strategic planning powers sit alongside community engagement and community consent to make sure that there is a whole place sense of the direction of travel and the development that needs to happen, in a way that builds public support.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q The Government will do our very best to make sure that chaos is not the thing that comes out of this set of reforms. I think most people would concede that the status quo is not optimal and therefore reform is required. The piece that I want to push back and follow up on is the need for public participation. That is the whole basis on which our planning system works, but there is something about accountability and the mandate that sits with the mayor. Ultimately, if people do not like the set of decisions that the mayor drives through a development plan, they can boot them out in an election, so there is a specific piece around the function of the mayor that means that they can hold that development plan and the public are able to hold the mayor to account.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q To pick up on the point about a democratic deficit, one of the things that has been much debated is that the Government have embarked on two major pieces of legislation: the Planning and Infrastructure Bill, and the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill. Both will have a huge impact on the policy area, particularly around housing. We know that housing delivery has collapsed, and part of the solution to that in the Planning and Infrastructure Bill is to strip out a lot of the environmental protections, which you have referred to. Then the devo Bill comes along and removes much of the community voice as well—for example, by reducing the number of planning applications that may be considered by a local planning committee. Can you tell us a little bit about how, perhaps in an ideal world or a more optimal world, that community voice could be secured behind the delivery of the types and number of homes that communities want, but in a way that best reflects the needs of those local communities and those areas?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Bullet points would be great.
Manuela Perteghella (Liberal Democrat, Stratford-on-Avon)
Q At the moment, we have a lot of expertise at district council level as the local planning authority. My own district council, Stratford-on-Avon district council, is now shaping the South Warwickshire local plan, so it has experience in plan making, planning policy and so on. With the demise of district councils, how can we be reassured that this expertise will be represented at the strategic authority level? Do you think that specific training should be introduced to support decision makers to make effective judgments on planning?
Mike Reader (Labour, Northampton South)
Q In your evidence, you noted that the Bill does not go far enough to address tackling climate change, restoring nature and tackling health inequalities. We heard the same from the Healthy Air Coalition. Naturally, it says that air quality needs to be picked up. UK100 also picked up that the Bill is quite silent on this. Would it be positive of the Government to be clearer on the requirements for strategic authorities on the climate and environment, to stop it becoming a political football for climate deniers and others who want to use it for political gain?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you. That brings us to the end of our time for this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you both very much for your evidence.
Examination of Witness
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Sacha Bedding MBE, chief executive of Wharton Trust and a member of Locality. For this panel, we have until 5.20 pm.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q My first question is about your views on how the community right to buy provision in the Bill will help communities to better make use of and take ownership of community assets.
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q To build on that, vibrant, strong communities and community organisations are critical to our vision and to taking advantage of the powers that we are providing through the Bill. I am interested in your views on the new duty on local authorities to make effective arrangements at the neighbourhood level. Also, with your vast experience in the sector, what is your sense of what we need to get right to ensure that we genuinely empower community organisations, when we know that they have the capacity to have a voice, representation and power for the communities they represent?
Miatta Fahnbulleh (Labour/Co-operative, Peckham)
Q You make the point about creating organisations and capacity that reflects the will and want of the people. A big part of that is diversity and representation. One of the challenges that we have had in the community sector is that it tends to be those parts of the community who have the social capital, the time and so on who are at the forefront of that. I am interested in your views on what we should be thinking about to ensure that whatever neighbourhood governance structures we create are genuinely representative and have that diversity of views and opinions to genuinely drive the will and want of the community.
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Q I absolutely support your comment about the reopening of the community improvement fund or similar, but last week we had the Museum of Broken Dreams downstairs, which showcased some incredible projects that had failed due to various issues. This Bill is a good start, but does it go far enough? For example, it is great to see supporting assets included, but are they the right ones? What about environmental assets—places within communities for nature and open space? Would they be something you would be interested in expanding to?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you very much, Mr Bedding, for coming down and for your evidence. I will suspend the Committee for 10 minutes, because our Minister has been sitting here and she has to give evidence next. We will resume at 5.20 pm.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. Thank you very much for agreeing to do it today when you were just sitting here listening to all the evidence; it is a tough day for you, Minister. For this panel, we have until 5.40 pm.
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Q Minister, welcome to your role. I know that you have not been in it for very long, so well done for getting through today; it has been a joint effort, I think. Do you think that you have inherited a disjointed mess from your predecessors? On the Planning and Infrastructure Bill, and now this Bill, all parties on the Committee—the Liberals, the Greens and us Conservatives—had concerns, quite frankly, about the disjointed nature of some of the reforms brought forward by this Government. For example, it is arguable that the Government are giving power to regional mayors, but taking power away from planning committees. There has been a hard target of half a million in local government reform, but now that is a soft target, and planning is being devolved, but also centralised on an unprecedented scale by the Government in the Planning and Infrastructure Bill.
I would like to angle in on two issues. I think it is fair to say that most witnesses today have said that there has been confusion and doubt about the benefits, and there have been some concerns about the disjointed nature of planning reforms. I do not think I have seen before a Government bring forward two major pieces of legislation that, maybe unintentionally, deliver completely different things.
My first question is: has your Department done any analysis or assessments on how much will be saved in local government from the unitarisation and devolution measures that you are introducing?
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Q Thank you, Minister. On the point about 14 years of the last Government, the situation that was left by them was that planning committees, elected by local people, were still making decisions on behalf of the people who elected them. That is questionable under both aspects of the major legislation going forward.
Can I just drill down again, as you have not answered the question: has your Department done any analysis on estimated savings from the unitarisation of local authorities across England, and the devolution measures that you have put forward to the House today?
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Q Thank you, Minister. The Government’s stated aim is to unitarise every local authority in England, so I would have thought there would be some indication of the savings for the Government, because there is a set level for the number of layers of government across England—
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Mr Holmes, lots of Members want to speak.
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
I have one more question, if I may. We will move on, because it is clear that there was no assessment of the spending.
On 16 December 2024, the hon. Member for Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton (Jim McMahon) sent a letter to local authority leaders setting out a target of 500,000 people per local authority. On 3 June, he said that that was a set principle and that any local authority that wanted to go above or below it would need to set out a clear rationale. On 20 July, he said that he continued to be asked about the 500,000 target, indicating the concern and confusion among local government leaders. Do you think that the Government have behaved in the right way to ensure an efficient and streamlined consultation process for local government leaders in the country?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
If we keep our questions and answers short, everyone will get in. I call Perran Moon.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Meur ras—thank you, Chair. I am afraid it is Cornwall again, Minister. In 2016, commenting on the previous Government’s plans for redrawing boundaries, the Council of Europe’s advisory committee on the framework convention for the protection of national minorities said that
“Article 16 prohibits restricting the enjoyment of the rights of the Framework Convention in connection with the redrawing of borders.”
The Bill currently excludes Cornwall from accessing the highest level of devolution unless we compromise our national minority status. Is there an appetite in the Government, before we pass a Bill that breaches the framework convention, for making special provision in the Bill for Cornwall so that it can access the highest level of devolution without compromising our national minority status?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q I think we have established that the Department has not done an independent assessment of the financial impact of the reorganisation that has been described, so we do not know where we stand with that, but let me push for a little more clarity on the footprint. It is clear from the representations from local government leaders that the Government had previously given them the steer that unless their bid was for a footprint of around half a million, or had a very strong justification for why it was larger or smaller than that, the Government were unlikely to approve it. That was the evidence given to us by the previous Minister.
Clearly, a number of those authority areas are in the process of finalising their bids, and in some areas there is dispute at different levels of local authority as to what the footprint should be. Many of us will have been pleased to hear you say earlier, Minister, that that was flexible, in your view—that it was not intended to be a strong guideline, but was something where you were looking at a much greater level of latitude. So that we can have assurances in relation to the relevant groupings later in the Committee process, will you commit to all those local leaders—in particular any who have submitted a bid on the understanding that it had to be around that 500,000—that there will be the opportunity to revisit that if it was not dictated by their local circumstances and preferences but, in their minds, something required by the Government?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Can you come to the question, please?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
That is the question.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Just to check—
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. I really want to allow other Members to get in.
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
Q May I put a point of clarification? If there is no independent financial assessment, on what basis do the Government have a view that 500,000 is the most efficient size?
Vikki Slade (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Q Most areas that are currently undergoing local government reorganisation seem to be moving at pace to set up town and parish councils, if they do not have them, to protect their assets, protect their identity and retain local democratic accountability, because they are nervous about decisions being taken a long way away. That demonstrates how much they are valued. Yet places are not being supported to do so. There is no duty to co-operate with, include or consult with town and parish councils in the Bill. The funding for neighbourhood planning is gone, and I have had confirmation today that it is not coming back. There is no money to support the community right to buy. I believe that the desire for devolution is genuine, and we share it, but if you want to devolve to truly local people, you have to include and value the community level. Will you be open to reviewing the role of town and parish councils and how local people can truly get involved, either through town and parish councils or through community activism, rather than it being top-down?
Elsie Blundell (Labour, Heywood and Middleton North)
Q Thank you, Minister, for appearing before us today. In Rochdale borough, where I am an MP, we will never forget the appalling case of Awaab Ishak, who of course was the two-year-old toddler who lost his life as a result of the local housing association’s failures. This came after Rochdale Boroughwide Housing removed elected representatives from its board. They were the people who could voice the concerns of local people on the representative body. Do you agree that local councillors or the local authority should be represented on housing boards, and that their statutory role on those boards would only serve to strengthen the voices and protect the rights of tenants?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Minister, has today’s evidence shown a gap opening up, with the simultaneous creation of unitaries alongside these new mayoral bodies, in terms of real professional scrutiny, accountability and actual checks on these powerful new bodies between elections? In particular, will you look again at resourcing the scrutiny of the mayors and bringing in opposition-led scrutiny, which is what has existed successfully and constructively in London for 25 years now?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q My question was about resourcing. Have you had assurance that you will get some resources for this?
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Q Minister, we have heard a lot of evidence today about how metro mayors work in urban areas—we have heard some successful examples. However, we have hardly heard any evidence at all about metro mayors in the shires or in rural communities. How do you see the positives of metro mayors working in rural communities?
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Q How does that work in places such as Hertfordshire? In Hertfordshire we have about 15 towns, all of similar size, and hardly anyone moves between the towns. It is not like Manchester, where all the services are based in one centre and people cohabit around that. The shires are very different to the areas that you have just described.
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Q You have forced areas to come forward.
Lewis Cocking (Conservative, Broxbourne)
You have.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Mike Reader, you have a few seconds left.
Mike Reader (Labour, Northampton South)
Q I have already raised my points about the south midlands and particularly about devolution where it is in the interest of the country. Can we also have a conversation during this process about micromobility? We have Starship operating in Northampton. Robotics and automated delivery are not included in the provisions, but it would be great to see measures about them coming forward so that we can see growth in that area.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
That was a request and not a question.
We come to the end of today’s session. Minister, thank you very much; I know that it has been a hard day for you.