Crime and Policing Bill
Public Bill Committee, 27 March 2025.
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we begin, I remind Members to switch electronic devices to silent, please. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
Today, we will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take those matters formally, without debate.
I first call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in her name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Good morning, Dr Allin-Khan. I am minded that we have a busy day ahead of us, so I will move the preliminary motions formally.
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
We are now sitting in public again and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interest in connection with the Bill?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
I declare my former occupation as a police officer. I am a member of NARPO, the National Association of Retired Police Officers.
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
If any interests are particularly relevant to a Member’s questioning or speech, they should declare them again at the appropriate time.
Examination of Witnesses
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
We will now hear oral evidence from the National Police Chiefs’ Council, the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales, and the Police Federation of England and Wales. We must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this session, we have until 12.15 pm. Will witnesses introduce themselves briefly for the record?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
This is a huge, broad Bill that brings forward lots of measures and powers. Hopefully, it is welcomed by the great men and women you represent. Having looked at the Bill, is there anything that you find concerning? Is there anything that it is possible to improve? More broadly, are there any measures that you would like to see added to itQ ?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Could you comment briefly on begging, which we saw brought forward before? What would you like to see if we do include anything to that end?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Entry without a warrant is drawn more narrowly in this Bill than it was in the Criminal Justice Bill. Do you think it gives you the tools you need to do the job? Are there any concerns about that?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Do you have any other comments on entry without a warrant being narrower in this Bill?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Thank you very much for giving evidence today. I want to follow up on the questions about allowing police to go in without a warrant to recover digital devices with tracking devices. The Bill refers to “reasonable grounds to believe”, which is the test that would have to be applied, and requires authorisation by an inspector. Does each of you believe that that is the appropriate test and authorisation level?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Does any other panel member want to comment?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
But do you think that inspector-level authorisation is the appropriate level?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Thank you. I want to talk about respect orders. The Bill will introduce respect orders for the most persistent adult offenders of antisocial behaviour. Can each of you say something about how these new measures will enable the police to tackle antisocial behaviour more effectively?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q The commitment to introducing 13,000 neighbourhood police officers to tackle some of this antisocial behaviour in communities, high streets and town centres links together quite well with that. Would you agree?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Mr Murphy, would you like to say something from the Police Superintendents Association?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Can I ask about the new offences for assaults on a retail worker and the £200 threshold being removed? How will both of those assist policing in dealing with the spike in shop thefts we have seen over the last few years?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Mr Murphy, do you have a view on this?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
May I ask Tiff Lynch about the proposed changes to the Independent Office for Police Conduct’s referral threshold? The view is that it will probably result in fewer referrals to the Crown Prosecution Service around misconduct. Why will that be beneficial?Q
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
So your view is that it will speed up proceedings.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
But you support the change in threshold.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Would either of the other members of the panel like to say anything on that?
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Thank you for joining us today to assist us with scrutiny of the Bill. I want to look at the clauses about concealing identity. ClausesQ 86 to 88 make it an offence for someone to conceal their identity at certain protests. The challenge on that is that Hongkongers in my constituency of Sutton and Cheam, who are attending protests in central London against Chinese transnational repression, are concerned that their identities will be monitored by the Chinese Communist party and then used to conduct repression on family and friends in Hong Kong and China.
Obviously, protesting—being able to exercise our rights in a democracy to demonstrate our displeasure with something—is incredibly important. What is your understanding of the definition of a protest? In what situations would these measures be imposed on a protest? How would somebody at one of those protests—the Chinese protests are a good example—be treated by officers if a designation was put in place and they were concealing their identities?
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Do you think the new powers in the Bill are necessary? Do they allow you to do the things that you wanted to be able to do at previous protests but were not able to?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
Many Members have caught my eye. I will only be able to get everybody in if Members keep their questions very brief.
David Burton-Sampson (Labour, Southend West and Leigh)
Chief Constable De Meyer, looking at knife crime, there is a new offence of possession of a knife or offensive weaponQ
“with intent to use unlawful violence”.
Can you explain how operationally that bridges the gap between the current legislation on simple possession and using a bladed article or offensive weapon to threaten or harm somebody? How is this going to help us to drive down knife crime?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
If the witnesses are in broad agreement, it is fine if only one person answers, unless there is something else you want to raise.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Mr Murphy, can I pick up on the point about under-18s and respect orders? What sort of age would it be beneficial for the age limit to be reduced to, if that is what you were saying? Is there a particular age group where we see prolific antisocial behaviour starting to become more apparent? Also, is the definition of antisocial behaviour in the Bill wide enough? Clause 1(2)(9) statesQ :
“‘anti-social behaviour’ means conduct that has caused, or is likely to cause, harassment, alarm or distress to any person.”
My direct question would be: is it therefore being restricted to just a “person”, or does it include instances of neighbourhood or property nuisance, where there is a large-scale impact but no single person can be identified as the recipient?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Q May I take a moment to thank the panel, and your colleagues, for your service and continued efforts in making our communities safer? It is important to recognise that. My question is on the measures that we are implementing to provide more protection against retribution for authorised firearms officers who are facing criminal proceedings for offences committed during their duties. Do you think the measures will reassure firearms officers that the Government value the unique and dangerous work that they do? Will the measures give them more confidence moving forward than the CPS has given them recently?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q We know that a small number of people are responsible for a huge volume of the crimes we are discussing. Do you believe there are sufficient powers to deal with hyper-prolific offenders and to imprison them? Do you think we should be doing anything in that space? I would also be interested in the views of the other two panel members on the 18, 16—whatever it might be—question.
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q In terms of hyper-prolific offenders, obviously a lot of time is being taken by a small number of people. Is there anything we can do in that space to make the job easier?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
Just a reminder that we need to keep things really short if we want to get everybody in. It may not be possible to do so.
Lauren Sullivan (Labour, Gravesham)
Thank you for joining us. What are your views on the new youth diversion orders and the youth injunctions, and how they can support with ASB in our communities?Q
Lauren Sullivan (Labour, Gravesham)
A bit of both. We have the youth injunctions, which could help with ASB in our communities, but how do the youth diversion orders intersect with that?
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
I will take the panel back briefly to the powers around face coverings in protests. Given that protests are often political in nature, does anyone on the panel see challenges presented by having to exercise that power—challenges around perceptions or accusations of political bias? What are your reflections on the challenges that having to exercise that power will create?Q
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
I am afraid this will probably have to be the last question to this set of witnesses.
Keir Mather (Labour, Selby)
Chief constable, I have a question referring back to the issues you raised about rural crime. It is becoming a particularly pernicious issue for communities, especially when it comes to things such as off-road bikes, fly-tipping and the theft of farm vehicle equipment. Can you speak to how the provisions in the Bill will allow police forces to better tackle rural crime as a wholeQ ?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
We can probably squeeze in one more quick question.
David Taylor (Labour, Hemel Hempstead)
I want to associate myself with what myQ hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean said and to thank you all for your service. Tiff, I have a question for you. When we met in January—I was very grateful for that briefing—part of what we discussed was neighbourhood policing, which is a key theme of the Bill. Have you done any assessment of the Bill’s effectiveness in helping neighbourhood policing?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses for their evidence.
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
We will now hear oral evidence from the right hon. Sir Robert Buckland KBE KC and Oliver Sells KC. Again, we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this evidence session, we will have until 12.45 pm. Those who want to ask questions should catch my eye. I will try to prioritise those I was not able to get in last time. Could the witnesses briefly introduce themselves for the record?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q It is very nice to see you again, Sir Robert. I will start by asking what you welcome in the Bill.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Thank you. Can I pick you up on the child criminal exploitation offence set out in the Bill? You said that you might have liked to see more. Could you expand on that?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Thank you; that is helpful. Could I ask you about the cuckooing offence as well? What is your view on that?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Mr Sells, could I ask you what you think about the measure in the Bill on SIM farms?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Thank you. You have given us lots of food for thought.
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Is there anything in the Bill that gives you cause for concern? We would obviously be interested in Robert’s views on that £200 threshold as well. Are there any measures that you would like to have seen in the Bill that you have not seen in it?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Amendments were tabled to the Criminal Justice Bill that would have seen it mandate a ban, a tag or a curfew for anybody responsible for three incidents of shoplifting or assault on a retail worker. What are your thoughts on that, as something that has been taken out of this Bill?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Could we do anything else to tackle the problem of hyper-prolific offenders—this small group of people who are responsible for a huge volume of offences?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q I realise I have been on my retail hobby horse. More broadly, do you have any other concerns about the Bill? Are there any measures you would like to see featured that are not featured?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
Thank you, Sir Robert. We have already used two thirds of the time allotted for our eminent witnesses. As time is fleeting, I request that people keep their contributions as short as possible so that we can cover the greatest amount of content and allow Committee members to ask a question.
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
I want to pick up on something Mr Sells said about Crown court backlogs. I have a constituent who is still waiting, two years after a serious sexual assault, and says that that timelapse has actually been more traumatic Q than the assault itself. You said you were concerned that low-value shoplifting might add to Crown court backlogs; are there other things in the Bill that may do that or, indeed, things you would like to see in it that would help to reduce court backlogs more generally?
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
Give it your best shot.
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Q Sir Robert, during your tenure as Justice Secretary you acknowledged that the number of people prosecuted and convicted for rapes had fallen to the lowest level since records began—including having more than halved in the space of three years—while the number of reported rapes was still increasing. What specific measures did the previous Government implement to address the shortcomings? Do you believe that those efforts were sufficient to meet the victims’ needs? How can the important work on the new measures that this Government have been pursuing be taken further?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q I have a quick question about how the definitions in the Bill might have an impact on the pressure relating to the number of cases that come to court. Largely, it is about the cases that need a level of subjectiveness—for example, where there is just judgment, or there are reasonable grounds for belief. If the definitions were tightened up, would, or could, that feed through to making sure that the right cases come to magistrates and other courts? Would that help the backlog, or would it put too much pressure back on the police on the ground, who are at the frontline?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
If he can keep it to a quick minute, I call Keir Mather.
Keir Mather (Labour, Selby)
Q Sir Robert, you have vast experience in understanding that large crime and policing Bills such as this one need intense co-operation between the criminal justice system, frontline officers, the prison service and the courts. From your experience in Government, do you have any lessons about how we can better improve that co-operation?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
Order. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses for their evidence.
Examination of Witness
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
We will now hear oral evidence from Spike Aware UK. Once again, we must stick to the timings in the programme motion. The Committee has agreed that, for this session, we will have until 1 o’clock. Could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q As you will have seen, we get lots of people in here who are very familiar with this place, and then every now and again we get people who are brave, committed and dedicated to making a change and making the world a better place. Thank you for coming and for all your campaigning on this issue. All power to your elbow.
How important are the measures in the Bill, and why? Is there anything that you think the Government should be doing beyond what is in the Bill?
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Thank you, Colin, for coming in today and, to echo the words of the shadow Minister, for all of the work that you do on this; it is really appreciated.
You mentioned that you welcome the clarification in the Bill, which will create a specific offence of spiking by using the word “spiking”. Can you expand on why that will make such a difference for victims? You mentioned some of the issues with the police using different types of offences. Why will it make such a difference to have a specific offence?
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Thank you for that. One of the other things that you touched on—it was referenced by the previous witnesses—is the importance of not just making legislative change, but having a package of support available with the other agencies around it. What can you recommend beyond legislative changes—you mentioned A&E, but I am also thinking about training, guidance and so on—to really make sure that this is a package for spiking offences?
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Thank you again for coming along and for your campaigning. You must be proud that you have got this leap—this legislation—to try to combat some of the trauma that you experienced.
I have a broader question. Do the measures included in the Bill cover all the issues that you see around the offence? Do you think the Bill is a comprehensive measure to enable action to be taken to combat the horrible offence of spiking?
David Burton-Sampson (Labour, Southend West and Leigh)
Q I echo my colleagues in thanking you for all you do in this vital area. You rightly said that spiking affects everybody; unfortunately, it is something that men and women can be prone to. The Government have a target of halving the level of violence against women and girls, and this measure is hopefully part of that package. How important do you think it will be in halving violence against women and girls?
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
Q Looking at the purpose of why someone might spike, the Bill includes the words “injure”, “aggrieve” and “annoy”. From your experience, might somebody seek to spike for any other purpose that is not captured by, say, “annoy”, which is probably the broadest term?
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
Q Could there be something that might appear to have a more frivolous excuse—you talked about pranking—but that still needs to be captured by the Bill and may not be captured by the word “annoy”?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
I am afraid that this will probably have to be the final question to this witness.
Lauren Sullivan (Labour, Gravesham)
Q It was interesting to hear about experiences with A&E. Some of the drugs disappear from the bloodstream very quickly, so we are looking at timely diagnostic tests and a safeguarding duty to run those tests at A&E, perhaps immediately when people arrive. What are your thoughts on that?
Rosena Allin-Khan (Labour, Tooting)
That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witness for his evidence, which has been very helpful.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. First, and most important of all, if Members wish to remove their jackets, they may do so—those who have not already pre-empted the instruction.
I remind Members that questions are not limited to what is in the brief, but they must be within the scope of the Bill. In line with the morning sitting, for each panel of witnesses, I will call the shadow Minister to ask the first question, then the Minister, then the Liberal Democrat spokesman, and then box and cox backwards and forwards across the room. If anyone wishes to speak, please let me know—catch my eye; we are not mind readers—and we will do the best we can to accommodate everyone. We have to stick to the cut-off time specified in the programme resolution, so I will have no choice and will have to interrupt the questioning at the appropriate time.
I remind Members—we will do this in a moment—any relevant interests need to be declared, when speaking in Committee and tabling amendments. I am sorry to have to tell you that hot drinks are not permitted in the Committee Room. I did ask—I thought it was slightly more relaxed, but I am told I am wrong. They are certainly not permitted when the Committee is sitting.
Before we start hearing from witnesses, do any Members need to make a declaration of interest in connection with the Bill?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
I remind the Committee that I am a former police officer and current member of NARPO, the National Association of Retired Police Officers.
Examination of Witnesses
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, the Co-op Group and the British Retail Consortium. We have until 2.40 pm for this panel. Starting from my left, will you introduce yourselves for the record?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
I have a lot of history with this Bill and familiar faces to me. I am delighted to see the assault on a retail worker offence, but what more do you think we can do to protect retail workers? Do you have any thoughts on the Food and Drink Wholesale UK suggestion that we should have included a similar offence for wholesale workersQ42 ?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q As part of the Criminal Justice Bill there was a proposal that anybody responsible for three incidents of assaulting a retail worker or shoplifting should be mandatorily subjected to a curfew, a tag or a ban. Do you think there is a role for curfews, tags and bans in dealing with this problem?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Earlier we heard legal opinions about the fact that moving offences under £200 into triable either way could lead to significant delays. On prolific offenders coming time and again, it was suggested earlier that speedy justice is effective justice. Do you think it is important that justice is dealt out speedily in these cases, and should that play a part in our decision making?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Thank you very much for giving evidence today. How do you think shop workers will feel about the new provision on assaulting a retail worker? Will they feel reassured that there will be action if they are assaulted in the workplace?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q What about the presumption that in cases of assault on a retail worker, a criminal behaviour order will be attached? We have been talking about some of the measures that we think are important to put alongside a conviction. Do you support a criminal behaviour order that could, in effect, ban the individual from attending a particular area or a particular shop? Would that also help to reassure shop workers in particular?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
The majority of shop theft cases are heard in the magistrates court. Is it your understanding that they will continue to be heard in the magistrates court?Q
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Thank you very much for coming along. You will have to forgive me as I kind of wiggle around here a little bit. ClauseQ 14 is on assault of a retail worker, and goes on to define the place of work of a retail worker. Something that you mentioned, Mr Wynn, got me quite interested in talking about delivery drivers, and the clause does say that “‘premises’ include a…vehicle”, such as a food truck. To take, for example, a washing machine installation engineer working for a Currys, do you think that the Bill protects somebody like that, who is working for a retail firm but is actually in somebody’s home? Is that something that could be covered by the Bill, or that you would look to have covered by a Bill such as this?
David Burton-Sampson (Labour, Southend West and Leigh)
WhenQ we look at how we are moving forward, it is good to look at where we have come from. I think it was the coalition Government who included section 176 in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, which basically provided that low-value shop theft—that is, shop theft with a value of under £200—would be a summary-only offence. We know where that has taken us: we have little, if any, police attendance for those sorts of offences. What impact has that had on you and your members, and does the repealing of that £200 threshold give you better confidence that police will prioritise attendance at those types of theft?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Thank you. I do not think we are going to have time to allow every panel member to answer every question, so if Members could be kind enough to try to direct their questions, that would probably be helpful for everybody.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
I would just like to ask a bit more about the Scottish Act. We have mentioned that delivery drivers are included, but is there anything else in the Scottish equivalent that you think is working particularly well that is missing from this Bill and would be a good thing if it was replicatedQ ?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
All or any of you.
David Taylor (Labour, Hemel Hempstead)
I will direct my question to Paul—thanks for coming in. I want to pick up on what Christopher said about the impact that shoplifting has had and why removing this £200 is so important. To put it into context, I am grateful for the visit that the Co-operative enabled for me in my constituency. I was able to go to see a Co-op store. I was taken to a room at the back where I was shown CD after CD of footage of regular shoplifting by the same offenders, and yet very little had been done about it. What impact has that had on your profits over the years, and also on your staff’s moraleQ ?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Sorry about the lighting—we are just trying to see if we can find a shilling for the meter.
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
This is directed at any one of you on the panel. To take you back, an area where I think you all share the same opinion is that, under clause 16, theft from a shop should be triable either way, regardless of the value of goods—so below £200. I think the suggestion is that the police do not seem to be as responsive or as interested if it is a summary-only offence. I suggest that that is a policing issue and that the unintended consequence of removing the threshold could be to put low-value offences into the Crown court system, which is more expensive and with a longer backlog, and you might find the system is gamed another way. I am just inviting an opinion on whether a police policy issue might be the problem in terms of where they respond. A summary-only offence is still a crimeQ .
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
Q Just to clarify, I agree with you on that point. My problem is this idea that a summary-only offence is not really an offence at all so the police do not need to attend. I think we are all agreed on that: it is plainly an offence. My worry is that pushing things into the Crown court creates a whole load of other problems.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Mr Wynn, do you want to comment?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Thank you, Mr Gerrard, Mr Morris and Mr Wynn. We are indebted to you. Thank you very much indeed for your time. We are a couple of minutes early, but I am going to try to use that time to see if we can sort out the lighting. I do apologise. Thank you very much indeed.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I apologise in advance for the fact that we have some interesting lighting effects. We will work through it, one way or the other.
We are now going to hear oral evidence from the Victims’ Commissioner for England and Wales and the Suzy Lamplugh Trust. We have until 3.10 pm for this panel. Could the witnesses please identify themselves for the record?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Having read the Bill, is there anything that concerns you, anything you think we should be doing a bit more of, or any things that you would like to see in the Bill that are not in the Bill?Q
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Are stronger provisions needed to ensure that police and victims are informed when a sex offender changes their name?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q You said you had concerns, in particular about antisocial behaviour. Will you give us a bit more on that?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Suzy Bhaker, do you want to comment?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
That is fine. I just want to make sure that there is nothing you want to add.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Baroness Newlove, thank you for your report, issued at the end of last year, “Still living a nightmare”. In it, you particularly talked about people who were suffering from ASB, the support they needed and the review process. You have touched on this a little, but I would welcome your views on the role that the police and crime commissioner will play. What do you think about that? Do you think that that is the right thing to do? Do you welcome it?
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Q We have done a lot of work in my constituency on stalking legislation, due to some casework that we received. The Suzy Lamplugh Trust previously identified
“systemic issues with the police response to stalking”,
and I very much agree with that statement. To what extent do you think the measures in this Bill will address that? This is a bit open-ended, so I apologise, but do you think the Bill could go further in that respect, to improve the response of police around the country—my experience is in London—to prevent these hideous crimes from occurring in the first place?
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
That is an astonishingly low figure.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Order. Briefly, please, because we will be playing “Beat the clock” if we are not careful.
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Q That leads to a question about how the orders are working at the moment. You welcome extending them. Does that suggest that in the very small number of cases in which they are applied, they are working quite well?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I am afraid that I am going to have to ask for concise answers. It is important that we get the evidence on the record, so at the expense of some brevity, perhaps, if there are matters that in hindsight you wish to put on the record, feel free to write to us. I hope that, in that way, we may be able to have our cake and eat it.
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Suky, why do you feel that stalking protection orders would be more beneficial and effective and provide better protection to victims than restraining orders, which are currently given in these circumstances?
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q I have a quick question for you, Baroness Newlove, on the measures in the Bill around the offence of taking intimate images. Do you agree that the base offence, which has no requirement to prove intent, will allow better protection of victims who have intimate images taken of them without their consent?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q This question is probably best for Suky to answer. Do you consider that the provisions in the Bill and the Acts to which it relates, such as the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, are sufficient to cover all forms of stalking? For example, are they sufficient to cover online stalking, which is obviously becoming more prevalent? In 1997, the internet was a very different beast from what it is now.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Baroness Newlove, is there anything you think we should add?
Jo Platt (Labour/Co-operative, Leigh and Atherton)
Thank you for attending. I want to address the breach of protection orders. This question is more for Suky. I have been dealing with a case in Wigan, where the victim’s ex-partner committed the most heinous crime. Given that more than half of stalking victims are targeted by former intimate partners, do you think the Bill goes far enough in addressing breach of protection orders, or could it go further?Q
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Q Baroness Newlove, given that intimate image abuse disproportionately affects women and girls, how do you think the changes will specifically help to address the unique challenges that they face in seeking justice and support?
Louise Jones (Labour, North East Derbyshire)
Baroness Newlove, cuckooing is a pretty heinous crime that takes advantage of some very vulnerable victims. What impact do you think making cuckooing a specific offence will have on those victims?Q
David Burton-Sampson (Labour, Southend West and Leigh)
Q Again, this one is for you, Baroness Newlove. There is nothing more frustrating than having your device stolen and knowing where it is, yet the police being unable to act. Are you confident that the new powers in the Bill will give the police what they need to act in those situations where a device can be located?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Are there any further questions? We have a couple of minutes left.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q Regarding nudifying technology and other online tools that demean mainly women and girls, though they affect others as well, what do you think we can do to look at this further? Are there parts of the Bill where it should be addressed? In general, are we tackling this area sufficiently?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Ms Bhaker, you were nodding furiously—do you have anything to add?
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Picking up on a comment you made, Baroness Newlove, around resources and officers—while powers are all well and good, the challenge is having enough numbers to exercise them. Tiff Lynch made a comment about how resources are being used up by duties. How much do you agree that the focus on neighbourhood policing and the powers included in the Bill are only so useful if we have the officers and the numbers to exercise them? Do you see anything in the Bill that gives you confidence that will happen?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Suky Bhaker and Baroness Newlove, we are indebted to your expertise. Thank you for joining us.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We are now going to hear oral evidence from the Internet Watch Foundation and Action for Children. We have until 3.40 pm. Would the witnesses be kind enough to introduce themselves for the record?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
For the benefit of the Hansard reporter and the Chair, who is becoming increasingly hard of hearing, and as there is a lot of noise outside, I would be grateful if you could speak up just a little. Thank you.
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Having read the Bill, is there anything that concerns you or that you think we could improve upon, and are there any measures in this area that you would like to see added to the Bill?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
We would welcome anything you write to us.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I should explain that the first question is often an opportunity for witnesses to make a brief opening statement. Mr Sexton, if you wish, you are most welcome to do so.
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Are there any gaps that you can see in the legislation, or anything that needs tightening up to hit that need and that objective?
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Mr Sexton, the Bill introduces a number of new offences banning child sexual abuse imagery. One of the new offences is a specific offence targeting the administrators and moderators of CSA sites and groups. How prevalent are those groups,? Will the new criminal offence actually deter offenders from even establishing those sites?
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q One issue that has been raised with us is the idea that AI imagery of child sexual abuse does not impact real-world victims. Could you speak to that point? I think it is an important one to make and get on the record.
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
This question is probably best aimed at Action for Children. It is on a point that was raised in some of our Q written evidence about the proposed sentencing under the proposed child criminal exploitation offence compared with the Modern Slavery Act 2015. The proposed sentencing for child criminal exploitation is 10 years, which is much shorter than the penalty of up to life imprisonment under the Modern Slavery Act. That might create a perverse situation where you can be sentenced for child criminal exploitation and get much less than you would under the Modern Slavery Act. Do you have any views on that?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q I want to ask about criminal exploitation prevention orders. I noted what you said about the need to sanction the exploiters, but also to protect children. Can you say more about the protection that you want to see offered to children?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q So if a criminal offence was taken through the courts, you could make a criminal exploitation prevention order, and you are saying that there could also be a child exploitation order alongside that. That would all fit together.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Okay, that is interesting. In the past, the Modern Slavery Act has often been relied on to deal with these issues of exploitation of children. Do you think that having this stand-alone offence will deal with the problem that we have identified, which the Modern Slavery Act cannot tackle, with the exploitation of children and young people?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Q I have a question for Ms Maciver. How will the measures on child criminal exploitation help to ensure that there is a more effective and consistent response to it?
Alex Barros-Curtis (Labour, Cardiff West)
Mr Sexton, I want to go back to what you were saying about the administrators and moderators aspect, and needing to look at people in the chain. Could you talk a bit more about that? Is that people who host websites? I have another question for both of you—not to pre-empt what you are about to say—but presumably that will be not just domestic but international, so what could the Bill do, if anything, through partnerships and cross-agency working, both here and abroad, to target that issue?Q
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Any further questions? No. In that case, Ms Maciver and Mr Sexton, thank you for your evidence—the Committee is indebted to you.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Local Government Association and the leader of the Conservative group on the London Assembly. We have until not later than 4.10 pm for this panel. Could the witnesses please identify themselves for the record—ladies first?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Having read the Bill, is there anything that particularly concerns you? Is there anything you think we could improve on? Are there any measures that you would like to see in the Bill that are not there as it stands?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Before we proceed, for my benefit and that of the Hansard reporters, could you please speak up a little? There is a certain amount of background noise coming from outside, which makes it quite difficult to hear.
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q You beat me to it—I was about to talk about fly-tipping as there have been huge costs to local authorities across the country. What do you think of the Bill’s proposals? How could we go further and improve on it? At one point, there was a suggestion that you might give people penalty points on their driving licence if they use vehicles to dump things. What is your view on all of that? What do you think of the measures and how can we make the Bill stronger?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q On powers specifically, is there anything you need that you do not have that we might be able to provide?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Turning to the measures on the antisocial use of vehicles and being able to seize them without notice, the council and the police in my part of the world face a huge problem. What is your experience of that? Do you think we need to be doing more than we are doing in the Bill? I realise that this is not the only power that police and local government have to act on it, but what more can we do in that space?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q There are limitations on the ability of the police to seize them from places including private dwellings. Do you have a view on that?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q It is worth reflecting on the fact that there has been a lot of public order and protest legislation in the last few years. The previous Government agreed that they were going to have post-legislative scrutiny of the 2023 Act, which will happen from this year, as well as of some of the other public order legislation.
I want to ask the Local Government Association specifically about antisocial behaviour, the respect orders in the Bill, and the strengthening of some of the powers in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. What are your reflections on how increasing the respect orders and those other powers will help local authorities to deal with antisocial behaviour?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Thank you for that. You gave some interesting statistics there, so you are obviously already collating data in your local authority area. I assume that most local authority areas are collating data on ASB. I want to be clear: the intention is not to put further burdens on local government; it is to allow that data to be put together so that there is a clear picture of what is happening with ASB around the country. I assume that will not be too much of a burden.
Luke Taylor (Liberal Democrat, Sutton and Cheam)
Q It is good to see Neil, my ward councillor and council colleague in Sutton. I want to focus on the seizure of motor vehicles, which relates to an issue we have on our high street in Sutton, but I want to take a slightly different angle and ask whether Neil and Sara think the powers might go too far. Would the ability to seize vehicles without warning, and without an initial pushback on the behaviour, potentially give too much power to the police? Is there a risk of—I will not say “misuse”—over-policing? Do you have thoughts on that? Sutton is a good example but, Neil, your London Assembly seat also covers Croydon, where there might be slightly more rural issues. Sara, do you have any examples from the LGA area that you represent?
Keir Mather (Labour, Selby)
Thank you both for your evidence. Councillor Garratt, you remarked earlier about public order measures, protests and the concerns you have, quite rightly, about some of the protests we have seen in London. Can you speak to some of the specific provisions in the Bill, particularly those that create new criminal offences of concealing your identity at a protest, of climbing on specified war memorials, and of wearing or displaying articles in support of prescribed organisations? How do you think the practical application of some of these measures in London will help to deal with the public order concerns you mentioned?Q
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q I would like to look at the requirement to report where there is reasonable suspicion of child sexual abuse to, among others, local authorities. From your point of view, how do you think local authorities are set up to receive such reports? Do you think local authorities should get involved in that?
Lauren Sullivan (Labour, Gravesham)
I declare an interest: I am still a Kent county councillor, although I have resigned from Gravesham borough council.Q
With a council hat on, I want to look at fly-tipping. Gravesham borough council has issued 386 community protection warnings and about 50 fly-tipping fines, so there is definitely a growing issue with fly-tipping. Could I ask your advice? What do you think about some guidance, perhaps to courts, about recovery costs? We know that fly-tipping largely is organised crime, and there are costs in collecting the rubbish, often for private landowners; they are left to bear the brunt of the burden. Would guidance for courts—magistrates courts in particular—on recovering the costs of the crime be welcome?
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
Q In the light of my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam describing Croydon as rural, I point out that I am from a properly rural seat in Somerset. Fly-tipping gets mentioned to me a lot by farmers, partly because they often deal with it on their land and partly because they consider that many of the perpetrators are the kind of people who are committing wider rural crime. Sara, from the point of view of the LGA, which represents lots of more rural councils, do you feel that there is more the Bill could do to support councils in dealing with rural crime?
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
Thank you.
Louise Jones (Labour, North East Derbyshire)
Q The Bill introduces a new offence of cuckooing, and I am particularly interested in your opinion because, unfortunately, a lot of cuckooing takes place in council properties. Having lived on a street where cuckooing was going on, I have seen at first hand the impact on the wider neighbourhood as well. I am interested to get your views on how welcome the provision is and how effective it will be.
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
Q To the extent that it is relevant, I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in that I am a serving Isle of Wight councillor.
I want to take the panel back to clause 45(2) and the duty to report. I note that the police and local authorities are treated as interchangeable in the provision about who a person must report to. I invite any thoughts about that idea that the police and local authorities are somehow interchangeable and have similar skillsets. Councillor Conway referred to the training that would be needed with local authorities, but clearly there are so many different ways you could report. Although the police are used to reporting of criminal activity, the council does not routinely receive reports in that way. I invite either of you to comment on that slightly unexpected and unusual interchangeability of police and local authorities.
David Burton-Sampson (Labour, Southend West and Leigh)
Q My questions have been answered, but I will ask another while I have the floor. The Bill provides the ability to extend community safety accreditation schemes, basically allowing councils to take on more powers that would normally be available only to the police. Do you think that is a good thing for your local authorities?
David Taylor (Labour, Hemel Hempstead)
Q Councillor Conway, my ears pricked up when you talked about Clear, Hold, Build and the successes that you had had. That is a project that the police in my area, Hemel Hempstead, have been implementing in a particular neighbourhood called Grovehill. We are currently in the clear and hold phase. Given that you are ahead of us, I wonder whether you can share with the Committee some reflections on the build phase and some of the successes that you have had. Will you also reflect on how the Bill will help with the neighbourhood policing that is so central to these projects?
Alex Barros-Curtis (Labour, Cardiff West)
Returning briefly to mandatory reporting, as I understand it, the reference in clause 45(2) to
“a relevant police force or a relevant local authority”
is directly from the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse set of investigations. I believe that that is because of the typical provision of children’s social services in practice in England and Wales. It can be either/or, but obviously we need to ensure that there is a linkage between the two and that there is cross-reporting. I just want to check that that is not out of the norm—that, if a referral or reference was made at the moment, it would come into the local authority—and so, from your respective positions, putting this into law does not add an excessive burden on local authorities.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Councillor Garratt and Councillor Conway, thank you very much indeed for your time. The Committee is indebted to you.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We shall now hear oral evidence from police and crime commissioners, including the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. We have until 4.50 pm for this panel.
I am afraid we are having some difficulty in hearing this afternoon. It is not just me—I thought it was, but it is not—so if you could speak as loudly and as clearly as you can muster, that would be appreciated. Will the panel please identify themselves for the benefit of the record?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
That is excellent—we can hear you. Thank you very much.
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Having read the Bill, does anything concern you? Could anything be improved? Are there any measures that you would like to see in it that do not currently feature in it?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q On resource, there is a small number of people who commit a huge volume of crime —often low-level stuff. Could we do anything more to tackle the problem of those hyper-prolific offenders?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q I realise that different areas are affected very differently by the antisocial use of off-road bikes and e-bikes. My area is absolutely battered by the issue. The Bill makes changes to the Police Reform Act 2002, introducing the ability to seize a bike without notice, and there are obviously other powers, but what more could be done in that space, specifically on the ability to go into a private dwelling to seize one? When these bikes have been seized by the police, they are sometimes sold online to the people who were making use of them in the first place. Is anything else we could do to tackle that problem?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q The Bill makes a change to the Police Reform Act 2002, but my understanding is that there are no nationally compiled figures showing which powers are being used to seize bikes, and that the Road Traffic Act 1988 is actually allowing many people to seize bikes without the notice set out here, and probably more quickly, easily and efficiently. Does your force use the Police Reform Act, the Road Traffic Act or an array of all the above?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
This will be the final answer on this subject.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q I want to ask about antisocial behaviour, and particularly about the role that PCCs will take up under the Bill in the reviews that victims of antisocial behaviour can seek. As PCCs, what is your perspective on that? How might it assist with your work on supporting victims?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q May I ask about police accountability? The Bill also proposes changes to the Independent Office for Police Conduct’s referral threshold, and that may well result in fewer cases going to the CPS. As you are PCCs, what is your view of that and do you think that it will actually be beneficial?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q The Bill also provides that the IOPC can send cases to the CPS before the IOPC has concluded all its work. Do you have any views about that?
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
Q Ms Spurrell, you wondered whether we had talked about resources a lot, and it will not surprise you to learn that we have. I want to talk specifically about neighbourhood policing resources. In my local police force, we have seen a 20% drop in the number of police community support officers since 2023, and I know that my principal town of Frome currently has vacancies for PCSOs. Do you have a view on whether the Bill’s provisions, including well-intentioned measures such as the retail crime provisions, can be delivered with the neighbourhood policing that we currently have in place?
Louise Jones (Labour, North East Derbyshire)
Q In my constituency of North East Derbyshire, we have real issues with car theft, and in this Bill we have a couple of clauses affecting signal jammers. I am interested to hear your thoughts on how that will have a practical impact on preventing car theft.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q I want to reflect quickly on knife crime, and the Bill’s provisions on that. First, what are your comments on the clause to make it an offence to possess with the intent to cause unlawful violence? Do you think that is practically workable? How will that be enforced? More generally on tackling knife crime, what have you seen in your areas that has been good, bad or indifferent? Is there anything in particular missing from the Bill?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
I want briefly to touch on the police appeals tribunal. Police and crime commissioners up and down the country represent the public in holding forces and chief constables to account. In the context of public confidence in policing, how important is it that PCCs have an equivalent right of appeal to the police appeals tribunal?Q
David Burton-Sampson (Labour, Southend West and Leigh)
This is obviously a meaty Bill. There is a lot of really good stuff in here, and much of it will give new powers to existing police officers, to people across the force and to local authorities. As PFCCs or PCCs, you will have a key role in helping to ensure that the Bill is implemented, assuming it passes through Parliament. How confident do you feel about making sure that happens? It is pointless passing laws if they are not implemented on the ground.Q
Alex Barros-Curtis (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Returning briefly to police accountability, you already expressed support for what the Minister said about amending some of the restrictions, in terms of the thresholds for referral and for whether a final investigation has been completed. On placing the IOPC victims’ right to review scheme on a statutory footing, presumably you would support that to build public confidence in the IOPC and what it exists to do for the accountability of police forces in our country.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Gentlemen, lady, thank you very much indeed for your time and for your expertise, which are greatly appreciated.
Examination of Witness
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from Dr Lawrence Newport. We have until 5.05 pm for this witness. Dr Newport, could you identify yourself briefly for the record, please?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Having read the Bill, is there anything that concerns you or anything you think we could improve, or are there any measures that you would like to see in it Bill that do not currently feature in it?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q You did a very good job of illustrating the need for the ability to enter a house without a warrant. That proposal has been drafted in this Bill more narrowly than in the previous Bill. Do you think it will still meet that need?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Do you have any views on the approach to hyper-prolific offenders and how to ensure they are properly sanctioned?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q More generally on antisocial behaviour and some of the provisions in the Bill, do you support what respect orders could help to deliver in tackling antisocial behaviour in our communities?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Dr Newport, I do apologise for the lighting effects.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q I want to ask about respect orders and the fact that they are pitched to come in at age 18 and over. Given how much antisocial behaviour is by juveniles, what would your view be on reducing that age to 16, or whatever level you might think? Or do you think 18 is pitched about right?
Keir Mather (Labour, Selby)
Q Thank you very much for your evidence, Dr Newport. I want to look back to something that you said at the beginning of your remarks about encouraging citizens to use CCTV in their homes to better allow the police to prosecute crimes. One issue that does recur, even when CCTV is available in people’s homes and they can say to the police, “Look, I’ve got this here for you to be able to use to catch who perpetrated this burglary”, or whatever else, is that the CCTV is not always used in the way people would like. I wonder if you could speak to that.
I think there is also a bit of a regional inequality point. In my part of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, there is live access to CCTV in York. That can be important in allowing people to deal with crimes in the moment, as they find them, and to direct police forces to the right spot. In Selby, however, our CCTV looks like it comes out of the 1970s; it is too blurry and grainy to use half the time, and it poses major challenges for the police. Can you point to how those practical realities affect your earlier remarks?
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
Q Solving a set of issues in a given day depends on well-worded law that is targeted at the problem it is trying to solve. Can you share your views on backing that up with the appropriate resources, be it money or technology, for the police to be able to deliver on the law? Over the last decades, we have seen more and more criminal law come into being without necessarily the resource to back it up. Can you comment on the interplay between well-worded law and the resources for police to be able to act on it?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Any further questions? No. In that case, Dr Newport, thank you very much indeed for finding the time to talk to us. We are grateful for your evidence.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from the National Farmers Union of England and Wales. We have until 5.20 pm for this witness. Could you identify yourself for the record?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Good afternoon, Mr Durham. Thank you very much for joining us.
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Having read the Bill, is there anything that concerns you or anything you would seek for us to improve? Are there any measures that you would like to see in the Bill that are not currently in it?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q The financial penalties for fly-tipping have gone up, and changes to guidance are now coming in. Is there anything else you think we could be doing in that space? Previously, it was suggested that those responsible for fly-tipping should incur points on their driving licences. Is there anything else you think we can do in that space, and what do you think of that proposal?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q There are measures in the Bill around the seizure of vehicles that are used antisocially. Do you have any views on that, or is there anything else you think should be done in that space?
Keir Mather (Labour, Selby)
Q Thank you for coming to give evidence today, Mr Durham. Rural crime absolutely blights communities across my rural North Yorkshire constituency, and a lot of the measures in the Bill will make a difference, whether they are to deal with off-road bikes, the theft of equipment from farm vehicles or fly-tipping. However, the substance of the law matters in its application, and a big challenge that we have in the Selby district is cross-border crime: criminals will perpetrate some of these acts on one side of a border and slip across to South Yorkshire or West Yorkshire and evade detection by the police. Does the NFU have a view on how we can take some of these provisions but operationalise them in a cross-border way to make sure that these criminals are brought to justice?
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
Q I represent Frome and East Somerset, which has a large number of NFU members and farmers, who I meet a lot. They tell me frequently that they do not bother reporting rural crime, because they just do not think there is any value in doing so or that it will ever be resolved, which massively frustrates the local rural crime PCSO, because she never gets the intelligence she needs about what is happening. From an NFU point of view, do you feel there is enough in the Bill on rural crime to reassure farmers that the Government are taking their concerns seriously, and that, if they report rural crime, something will be done about it?
Louise Jones (Labour, North East Derbyshire)
Q Farmers in my constituency of North East Derbyshire tell me that they have a frustrating issue with off-road bikes often being used across their land. Do you think the Bill goes far enough with the new powers to seize those vehicles?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q Missing from the Bill is anything to do with livestock theft or worrying. Do you consider those to be covered sufficiently in other legislation, or would you like to see something included in the Bill to recognise that that is a huge issue for farmers and rural landowners? I do not want to diminish theft from a shop in any way, but the value of a cow or sheep is significant. Should that be better represented in the Bill?
Keir Mather (Labour, Selby)
Q I want to ask about the confidence that individual farmers will have in these measures. We are in an unenviable situation at the moment. Farmers in my constituency deal with criminality frequently, and they have to step up themselves and put themselves in danger. I was speaking to a farmer in Brotherton the other month who had chased a gang of people on off-road bikes across his farm, putting himself at personal risk and danger. Do you think that, if implemented correctly, these measures will provide individual farmers with reassurance that they will not have to put themselves in similar danger in the future?
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
Q May I take you back to fly-tipping? We heard earlier how it is a problem for local authorities, but they are clearly more resourced than private landowners, who often own the sites where rubbish is dumped. Is there any opportunity missed in the Bill to try to tackle fly-tipping, particularly for people who, through no fault of their own, have waste dumped on their private property?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Mr Durham, thank you for joining us and for so ably expressing the concerns of the National Farmers Union of England and Wales. We are most grateful to you.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from the group Stand with Hong Kong. We have until 5.35 pm for this witness. Could you please identify yourself for the record?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q Having read the Bill, is there anything that concerns you that could be improved? Are there any measures you would like to see in it that are not currently in it?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Ms Yeung, I certainly do not wish to be discourteous, and neither do I wish in any way to make light of the very real concerns you are expressing, but could I ask you to relate your answer very specifically to the question that was asked: how can the Bill be improved or amended to address some of the issues that are of concern to you?
Matt Vickers (Conservative, Stockton West)
Q The challenge for the Government is that a huge amount of money is spent managing protests in this country. In London, we spent around £53 million managing pro-Palestinian protests. Some of the measures are designed to aid the police in managing protests and protecting the public from people who would do them harm. How do you think we can best balance the need to allow peaceful protest with the need to prevent disruption and prevent people from using face coverings to avoid being detained by the police?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q I listened very carefully and am very concerned by what you have said, but I want to highlight that the provisions in the Bill, specifically clauses 86 to 88, do not apply to all protests. It is not a blanket provision that says, “You can’t hide your face at a protest.” Clause 87 is designed only for those purposes where a senior police officer reasonably believes that a protest is
“likely to involve or has involved”
the commission of criminal offences. Having set that out, do you have a different view on that clause?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q But do you accept that we are a rules-based country with the rule of law and that there are checks and balances on the police?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
That is why we are very specific in what the clause says. It is not a blanket ban on hiding your face if you feel that you have to; it applies only if a senior police officer believes there is going to be the commission of offences.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
Q Just to be clear, are you saying that you should not be able to stop someone from covering their face at any protest? Is that your position?
Anna Sabine (Liberal Democrat, Frome and East Somerset)
Q I think you are doing really well, Ms Yeung; thank you for coming in. Just a quick question, although I probably know the answer: can I assume that your concerns about face coverings would also apply to the use of live facial recognition technology for protests?
Joe Robertson (Conservative, Isle of Wight East)
Q I appreciate that this is not a debate between elected Members, but I am not entirely sure from that exchange with the Minister whether the witness got the idea that face coverings would be banned only if there was a suspicion of a crime. There is a defence here for using face coverings to protect someone’s health or for “religious observance”. Perhaps Ms Yeung is looking for another type of defence whereby if someone believes they are under political threat—perhaps from a Government or organisation abroad—that would be a fair defence for wanting to protect their identity. I wonder whether she might comment on that possibility.