Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 25 February 2025.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We are now in public session and proceedings are being broadcast. Before I begin, I remind Members to switch their electronic devices off or to silent. Tea and coffee are forbidden.
We have three motions to consider: the programme motion on the amendment paper; a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication; and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private. In view of the tight timetable, hon. Members may wish to take those motions formally, without debate.
The Minister will move the programme motion standing in his name, which was discussed by the Programming Sub-Committee yesterday.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We are now in public session and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, do any hon. Members wish to declare interests that are pertinent to the Bill?
Michael Payne (Labour, Gedling)
I would like to declare an interest as a member of both Nottinghamshire county council and Gedling borough council, which are both responsible for administering benefits.
Michelle Welsh (Labour, Sherwood Forest)
Mine is exactly the same: I am a member of Gedling borough council and Nottinghamshire county council, which have responsibility for administering benefits.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
In the same vein, I am a member of Plymouth city council.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
I am a trustee/director of Southwark Charities, which provides accommodation for some older people who may be affected by the provisions of the Bill—a cursory reference, really.
Examination of Witnesses
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Professor Mark Button, Dr Rasha Kassem and Professor Michael Levi. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. It is vital that we stick to the timings, which are tight and which the Committee has agreed. This panel lasts until 10 past 10 at the outside. Could the witnesses briefly introduce themselves?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q
I will start by asking the panel a reasonably general question. What, in your experience, are the main limiting factors in investigating public sector fraud?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q I think all three of you have suggested, at least, that the PSFA would be a positive step in tackling some of those challenges. Are there any gaps where you think the legislation could or should have gone further? Is there something that should have been in there but seems to be missing?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q The Government’s impact assessment recognises that some will change their behaviours to circumvent checks. How easy do you think it would be to close the loopholes that allow some to get around the checks? Would that be a proportionate response?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q Can I come back in on the point about fraud and error, and the differentiation between organised fraud and fraud by individuals? Are you saying that needs to be more clearly defined? There is potentially a slight difference on the panel: Dr Kassem, you were saying that there needs to be greater clarity in the Bill, and Professor Levi, you were saying that some bits do not need to be in the Bill. Are you saying that they need to be in the guidance? I was a bit confused.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q To be clear, for example, if someone who has received child benefit fails to notify a change of circumstances when their child reaches 18, there is no suggestion that that would be considered fraud in this legislation?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q I think they know the date of birth of their child, but so does the Department for Work and Pensions. The distinction is whether that is an error relating to updating their record with the Department, or a deliberate act of fraud so that they can continue to receive a payment that they are not entitled to. My question is: are you saying that needs to be clearer in the legislation—or guidance, potentially, if we listen to Professor Levi?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q But sticking with that example, it is also an error on the Department’s part to continue making a payment when someone has reached an age where they are not entitled to receive it.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
So does that distinction need to be in there—that there needs to be the flexibility to treat this on an individual basis?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
But what if the 18-year-old went into work? The point is that the onus is on the individual to make clear the change in circumstances to the Department, but the Department also has the opportunity to question. In your case, you are showing that the Department has done that.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q Good luck to Mark’s son at university. I have one more question regarding Professor Levi’s point about previous experience and organisations being closed down because of appeals and things. Is there a need for this Bill to retain the flexibility in the potential to give bodies new powers over time when challenges arise in either recouping stolen money or challenging potentially fraudulent behaviour?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you very much for joining us today. I want to ask Dr Kassem a question, just for my own understanding. We have talked a lot about the definition of fraud and error and the Department’s approach to them. On the DWP side, to my knowledge, we are not planning to change the definitions of those within the scope of the Bill, but, clearly, we are taking new powers to enforce against them. Just out of interest, is there an academically accepted definition of fraud versus error that people work to, or is it ultimately a question of judgment?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you. I will just ask one more question; I am interested in your views on societal attitudes to fraud. Clearly, we have seen a significant increase in fraud and error within the DWP since the pandemic, with around £35 billion lost in total and upwards of £7 billion lost to fraud last year alone. We hear an awful lot about the changing attitudes that people have towards fraud. Is that something that you have seen, recognised and acknowledged? Are there other drivers that you think are behind those increased numbers?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q Thanks for bringing your significant experience to this discussion. My question builds on Dr Rasha Kassem’s point about the importance of oversight. That is something that we have taken very seriously in drafting the Bill and trying to ensure that independent oversight is built into every part. I am interested in the assessment of all the witnesses of the level of oversight that is built in. As we develop further work, guidance and training, is there anything we need to think about to continue to strengthen that?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q On the PSFA side, in order to recover debt, you would have to apply to a court. Does that answer that point or is there more to be done?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q The proposal is to have an independent chair that is completely independent of the PSFA and reports into Parliament. Do you think that answers that point?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
It is really reassuring to hear that because oversight is incredibly important to us. I have one more question, but I am happy to give way to others.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q May I come back in on the specific point of independent oversight as it pertains to the DWP element? Obviously, we intend to put in place an independent person to oversee the eligibility verification measure and then HMICFRS on both search and seizure and information gathering. Are you satisfied with that proposal for independent oversight on the DWP side, or are there things that you would ask us to consider beyond that?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q I will come in briefly, because I am conscious of the time. I was interested in what Professor Button was talking about—encouraging people to commit fraud, and the rise of online videos, TikTok and all that sort of thing—and I wonder whether you think that the Bill does enough to allow for going after people who choose do that. In essence, that is a fraud in itself. Also, is this a good example of where the distinction between fraud and error blurs? If there is no education about what fraud is, and people are watching lots of social media videos on how to defraud things, does that become error or is it fraud? I am interested in whether we are, inadvertently, not tackling the root issues through the Bill, and whether there is anything that we could do to make it tougher.
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q In your experience of researching fraud, how does this Bill compare to international best practice? Should we be considering anything else that you have seen that particularly works in other places?
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
Order. That brings us to the end of the allotted time for this panel. I thank the witnesses very much for their evidence. We will move to the next panel.
Examination of Witness
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear evidence from Helena Wood, director of public policy and strategic engagement at Cifas and a fellow of the Royal United Services Institute.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Welcome, Ms Wood. A lot of the discussion on the first panel was about the balance between effectiveness and proportionality. How well do you think the Bill as currently drafted strikes that balance?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q If we are looking at moving some of those standards on to the face of the Bill, for questions such as reasonableness, is there a recognised definition or test for reasonableness that you think could be incorporated into the Bill?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Given the extent and potential impact of those powers, is it your view that some further oversight or, potentially, appeal mechanism would be appropriate to help safeguard those interests?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q On your point about scope and the level of intrusion associated with the eligibility verification measure, you said you would like to see the power restricted to the most serious investigations. From our perspective, that would run contrary to what we are trying to achieve in capturing data that enables us to identify those who we had no idea were committing fraud or in receipt of an overpayment, albeit unwittingly. Is there another way you think we could achieve this?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Part of the reason that we do not have a specific intent to look at organised crime is that it makes up less than 10% of the fraud that we see in the Department—certainly of the overall fraud and error figures. I am reflecting on your comments about balance, but I am then hearing the questions about the efficacy of going to look directly into only one financial institution’s accounts.
My concern is about broadening the scope. We have taken significant steps, when set against previous proposals in this area, to narrow the scope of the Bill. For instance, we are initially looking only at the three benefits where we see the highest levels of fraud and error. Universal credit is obviously principal among those.
Does the work that we have done to narrow the scope reassure you at all when you look at the Bill—for example, the removal of the state pension and the restriction to only one financial institution? Clearly, without that, we would have to look at every single bank account in the country in detail and investigate why every single person in the country has £16,000, if we are unable to see across the full range of bank accounts that they have.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I will ask one more question about the systems that we have in place. What do you perceive as the principal weaknesses in the DWP’s current powers to detect fraud?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q We just heard that serious organised fraud is considered to be only 10% of what is taken from the Department at the moment. Do you think that the measures to give DWP investigators power of entry, search and seizure are the right approach to tackling that 10% of serious organised fraud that exists?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q You mentioned that the PSFA powers are used generally, but they have not been available to tackle fraud in the public sector outside of tax and welfare. What is your assessment of bringing those powers into this space? How effective will they be at tackling public sector fraud?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q Obviously, the provision in the Bill is to move the PSFA to be a statutory body, but as we were discussing earlier, built in for the current period is the oversight of an independent chair. Does that offer reassurance of that oversight in the meantime?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q You also talked about the importance of training. Part of the reason that we are starting off quite small is because the PSFA has broader powers than those under the DWP part of the Bill—for example, with the powers to levy fines, there will be authorised officers who have training and who have to apply to courts to use search warrants and so on. What are your thoughts on how we ensure that that training means that those 24 officers have the necessary expertise to be able to take on these powers?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Briefly, on the question of efficacy and scale, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has powers at the moment to request information from banks en masse. Given the experience we have within Government of doing that, and from what I can see, the lack of problem with it, I wonder whether you feel—
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
Order. Alas, that brings us to the end of the allotted time for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank Helena Wood for her evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear evidence from Kristin Jones, formerly of the Serious Fraud Office and the Crown Prosecution Service, and from Alex Rothwell, chief executive of the NHS Counter Fraud Authority. For this panel, we have until 11 o’clock.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Perhaps I can start with the same question that I asked Helena Wood in the last panel. How well do you think the Bill, as currently drafted, strikes the balance between effectiveness and proportionality?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Is that your view as well, Alex?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q A theme seems to be emerging from this morning’s witnesses that it is difficult to know whether the extensive powers in the Bill are proportionate without knowing how they will be exercised. Would you expect the details that are planned for the code of practice to be on the face of the legislation?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Perhaps a draft code before Parliament makes definitive decisions on the legislation.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Do you think that the measures in the Bill and the powers to update them are sufficiently flexible to respond to the changing nature of fraud that you have seen through your career and would expect to continue in the years ahead?Q
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Alex, perhaps you could broaden out this discussion by explaining the specific challenges that the NHS faces in identifying and investigating fraud and recovering sums of money. Could you comment on how you expect the Bill to make a difference?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Do either of you think that anything is missing from the Bill that would help in the fight against fraud and would be appropriate in legislation like this?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I asked this question of the first panel, but I am interested, both in broad terms and specifically within the parameters of your role in the NHS, in whether you have seen changing attitudes to fraud in recent years. Obviously there are various public attitude surveys that would indicate that that is the case, but has there been an increasing prevalence of fraud that the NHS has had to contend with, and do you have any comments on general changes in attitudes?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I have one further question. In considering the Bill and discussing it with various people and stakeholder groups, the one thing that seems to come through incredibly strongly is the importance of data sharing, as the single biggest thing that we can improve to tackle fraud. My general question is: would you share that view? More specifically, are we not sharing data with or receiving data from any organisations at the moment that you think we should be and that would help us to tackle fraud, both in the DWP and across the public sector?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
I want to go back to the question on proportionality. The previous witness emphasised that she was concerned that the eligibility-verification powers might go beyond proportionality and risk additional intrusion. When you are commenting, are you commenting on those powers as well, or mainly on the other parts of the Bill?Q
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Yes. The other powers that you mentioned already exist and are being transferred to a new place where things are conducted. Eligibility verification in the form that it is written is quite novel.
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
As inquiries, but the difference is that we are talking about routine use.
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Yes. Would you care to comment on the eligibility-verification powers more specifically?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Were those last two comments more about the effectiveness of the legislation?
Michael Payne (Labour, Gedling)
Q Thank you both for sharing your experience and expertise with us this morning. It is estimated that there was about £5.4 billion-worth of fraud and error in temporary covid-19 schemes that were not run by HMRC. You will know that this is an area of significant public interest. The Public Accounts Committee said:
“It is very unlikely that most of the losses due to fraud and corruption”
during the pandemic
“will ever be recovered.”
How far do you agree with that statement? Do you think the new powers for the Public Sector Fraud Authority change the prospects?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q I am particularly interested in the work that the NHS serious fraud team is already doing. What specific challenges do you currently face in investigating fraud and recovering money that the Bill will help? Do you think there are gaps in what is being proposed that could be tweaked or amended?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q You have talked a little about the kind of police pressures that exist. I would be interested in both of your assessments, given your experience, of the police’s capacity and ability to investigate public sector fraud, and whether that means there is more of a need for civil powers.
Gill German (Labour, Clwyd North)
WeQ have talked about the increased public acceptability of fraud, and attitudes towards that, and indeed the social-media guides that are out there—the “how to” guides—that present it as a victimless crime. Along with improvements to investigative powers, what will the Bill’s very existence do to change that public narrative?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q I am interested in the point you made about future-proofing against future pandemics or crises. Can you both give us your reflections on what you learned from the covid pandemic? Do you feel the Bill addresses what we need to do to ensure that we do not end up with the level of fraud we saw during the pandemic?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q What do you see as the biggest current threats in terms of fraud against the public sector and—if we have time—how does the Bill address them?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
So the other half—the prevention side—has to accompany this.
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
I very much agree.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Alex, I have a final question regarding what you said earlier about the level of fraud you have seen remaining fairly static but you have increased your prevention measures. Which of the new measures you have stepped up have been particularly effective?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q Is the partnership with the PSFA that already exists working well?
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
Order. That brings us to the end of the allotted time for the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witnesses for their evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
For our final session this morning we will hear oral evidence from Anna Hall, corporate director of debt, and Christy McAleese, debt advice strategy and policy lead, both at the Money and Pensions Service.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q If you have been in the room, you will have heard a lot about the code of practice already. The Bill requires the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament a code of practice on the new recovery powers. What would you like to see in that code of conduct?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q Who should be consulted about putting together that code of conduct, or code of practice? Should the detail and the code of practice be included in the Bill?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q This question is on a slightly different tack. One of the powers in the Bill would disqualify a debtor from holding a driving licence. Is that likely to be an effective tool in getting people to engage and comply? Also, do you think the amount of time that that is for is long enough? It does not feel very long to me, given that it is supposed to be a deterrent. Do you think it is too long or too short, or should we just not look at this and use something else instead?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Anna, on your final point about engagement with customers, could you talk a bit about the partnership that the Department has with you and the MoneyHelper service, and the work that is done there to ensure that we seek to wrap appropriate advice and support around those who are indebted to the Department?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I am really encouraged by what you said about the engagement you have had with the Department on how we make the Bill workable and supported. I also very much agree with your comments about the support and encouragement available for people to reach out to MoneyHelper and other sites.
Can you reflect on the way that we have structured the process for people to engage with the Department when they are notified that they owe us a debt? We have done everything that we can to structure that as a power of last resort. Do you think that that is as robust as it can be with the multiple points of contact, the attempt to agree a sustainable and affordable repayment plan, and the ability, even after we have agreed a deduction, for somebody to come back to the table and negotiate that with us? Is there anything else that you would like to see in that space, or do you think that that is robust in reassuring ourselves that it is a power of last resort?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Finally, Anna, you talked early on about the importance of everybody being treated fairly, and I absolutely agree. Would you accept that one of the principal drivers for us acting in this way is an inherent unfairness in the system at the moment, whereby we are able to directly deduct from benefit claimants and those paid through pay-as-you-earn, but not from those who receive their income in other ways? Do you think it is appropriate, from a fairness perspective, that we look to take powers to do that?
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
There being no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear evidence from Joshua Reddaway from the National Audit Office, and Richard Las from His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. We have until 2.30 pm.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
This question is for you, Joshua. As you no doubt know, the Bill will allow the Public Sector Fraud Authority to be established as a separate body from the Cabinet Office. Do you think that is the right approach, and what benefits will it bringQ51 ?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Having a separate organisation?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q Do you have an opinion on that?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q How far do you think the increased time limit that would be in place for investigating fraud related to the covid-19 schemes will improve recovery rates? That is a slightly different topic, but do you think those longer time limits mean that we are more able to recover that money?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
That would be great.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
Do you want to add anything, Mr Las?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you both for joining us today. I have an overarching question about the impact of the proposed modernisation of DWP processes and whether you think that that will improve the detection of fraud and error.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
All the powers pertaining to the DWP—the five principal areas in the DWP’s proposals—so information gathering, debt recovery, penalties reform, powers of search and seizure, and EVM.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I have one follow-up question to each of you separately, if that is okay. Joshua, you mentioned the challenge that we have at the moment in detecting capital fraud and our reliance on somebody’s word as the only real measure that we have in place to determine that. If we were not to pursue EVM, is there another way that we could assure ourselves, beyond just taking the word of a potential claimant that they do not have more than, for instance, £16,000 in their account?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you. Richard, you made a point around the existing powers that HMRC has had, since I think 2011, to request information on every interest-bearing bank account in the country, as I understand it. Could you explain what safeguards and oversight you have in place, because that feels like a similar bulk data exercise? Do you think the oversight that we are proposing to put in place alongside these powers is equivalent, or do these powers have more or less oversight than the powers that HMRC has enjoyed for 14 years?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Just for clarification, is there an independent oversight mechanism in place for the use of those powers?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q Thank you both for your evidence. First, to Joshua, on the NAO’s reports on fraud, the PSFA measures hopefully build on many of those recommendations. I would welcome your assessment of the PSFA measures in that light and of any areas where you think we should go further.
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q Yes, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. A massive role in prevention, professionalisation and raising the profile of fraud sits within that, but what is your analysis of how much the deterrent measures in the Bill will support that prevention agenda?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
That is a very helpful challenge.
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
To follow up on that point, the Bill is called the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill. Do you feel like there is enough built in to identify and deal with errors? As you say, systemic things may be uncovered that are causing errors or losses that are not in fact fraud. Does that get fed back? Would you like to see more in the Bill that systematises thatQ ?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Those are errors that might be mistaken for fraud, given their outcome of people paying less or—
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q It does. Do you think the Bill does enough to deal with that issue?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Okay. Even with that title?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Joshua, you spoke about the Bill’s dual powers, both prevention and recovery. I just wonder, is it possible to quantify or estimate a percentage or lump sum figure of how much is expected to be saved from people who know they can no longer attempt to fiddle by not declaring capital or multiple accounts? Are you able to put a figure on that, or would you look for implementation before working on figuresQ ?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q On how much this legislation will prevent people from trying to fiddle the system. There will be people who are aware of the new powers who then do not do it; that is the point you were talking about when it comes to prevention.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q The deterrent effect, yes.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Yes.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Q As the new powers are rolled out, where people attempt fraud and a recovery effort is made, that will be clear and quantifiable. Will you be able to put a figure on that? Will you be assessing in any way how much of a deterrent it has been to have the new powers, including the access to bank accounts, for example?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Of course.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Following on from one of my colleagues’ earlier questions, can I come back to the Bill’s ability to clamp down on and look at error? Would it be your view that in addition to identifying instances of capital fraud or of people living abroad or being abroad for longer than they should be, there is also the potential for the eligibility verification measure to capture overpayments? It would therefore ultimately have the benefit of reducing the level of debt that somebody might find themselves in were that to go undetected for a longer period of time.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q One more, if I may, Chair? Richard, one of the powers we intend to take is around search and seizure for the DWP when investigating serious and organised crime. That is a power that HMRC have had for some time. Can you reflect on what the benefits of that have been for HMRC’s operations, in terms of no longer needing to rely directly on the police to fulfil that function?
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
Order. We have come to the end of the allotted time. I thank the witnesses for their evidence, and we will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witness
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear oral evidence from John Smart, formerly partner for forensics at Ernst & Young, who now sits on the Public Sector Fraud Authority’s advisory panel. We have until 2.50 pm.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
At theQ heart of this Bill is the establishment of the PSFA as a separate body outside the Cabinet Office. What do you see as the practical benefits that that move will bring? How will you better be able to serve the public sector?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q How would you see that independence interacting with the decision-making processes in the Bill, which largely rely on ministerial or departmental decisions in terms of the orders for information?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q This is very much a Bill of two halves, and many of the powers that will be given to the PSFA are equivalent to those that are being given to DWP investigators. The obvious difference is the use of reasonable force. Do you think that the nature of PSFA investigations means that that power will not really be required, or do you think that your powers should also include reasonable force?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q For a lot of the provisions in the Bill, those in receipt of orders potentially have a very short timeframe to comply with the demands.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Based on your experience with the PSFA so far, is that consistent with the length of time that, in most cases, it takes such organisations to reply to requests for information?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q The provisions of the Bill are not confined to financial institutions, are they?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q The legislation sets out a specific period of time for a lot of those powers, so would it be logical to assume that for some smaller businesses, it may take longer to comply than for multinational banks that are doing it regularly?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Obviously, you have not been involved in such direct investigations, but just to give us some idea of the quantum we are talking about, what period of time do you think would count as reasonably speedy, so that it would not endanger an investigation? Are we talking about days, weeks or months?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I have a very general question to open with. You will be more aware than I am of the changing nature of fraud and the increasing sophistication that we see from perpetrators. Do you agree, in general, that the DWP’s powers would need to be modernised in order to cope with that shift? Also, what are your views on the general provisions within the Bill, where it pertains to the DWP, to detect and prevent fraud?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q Based on your experience and the work that you are already doing with the PSFA, are there any gaps in the Bill? Is there anything that you think is not there that would help us to tackle fraud against public authorities, or do you think that as it stands, it is about as complete as you would want it to be?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q Given what you just said about the nature of the data that is already collected, could we avoid the fraud in the first place by sharing a lot of that information? If cross-departmental working is tightened up, might there be opportunities to flag fraud as soon as it starts to happen?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q Interestingly, one of the previous witnesses talked about powers that other countries have but we do not, which potentially would do exactly what you have just described. Are there any countries already doing something along the lines of what you just suggested it would be helpful for us to look at—perhaps not for this Bill, but in the future?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q As an adviser to the PSFA, you have seen the organisation grow. What is your assessment of where the PSFA is in tackling public sector frauds, and how the Bill moves us on?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q I have a question about the information-gathering powers and timings that builds on previous questions. The current proposal is that there will be a minimum of 10 days to gather information, but that that timeframe can be made longer in discussion with the business, and be made proportionate to its size. The business or organisation will be able to request a review of the timeframe if they feel it is too onerous. Is that a proportionate position in terms of information-gathering powers and safeguards?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q So it is about being explicit that that is a minimum and it can be extended, based on those conversations?
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
If there are no further questions, I thank John Smart for his evidence, and we will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear oral evidence from Eric Leenders and Daniel Cichocki, both from UK Finance. We have until 3.10 pm.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q What consultation has there been with industry to make sure that the eligibility verification measures are workable and that your members will know what is required of them?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Do banks have any sense of how many information notices and other applications they are likely to receive? Are there any expectations regarding the scale of the undertaking?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Do you have any idea what the additional man hours or potential cost burden could be for a typical bank in a typical year?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Presumably you agree with the previous witness that, in general, banks are reasonably well adapted to responding to such notices. Do you think that 10 days is reasonable for them?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Is there any measure of how long it currently takes banks to respond to information requests from Government, such as those from HMRC, under existing powers?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Are there any other areas where you think the Bill could approach things differently? Is anything missing that you think should be in the Bill?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you for joining us today, and for the engagement that we have had so far; it has been incredibly helpful and you have my assurance that it will continue. I would like to test the point that you have just set out on the POCA measure within EVM, as well as rolling that out more broadly. Clearly we want to ensure that the burdens on banks that arise as a result of the EVM measure, and any of the other measures, interplay in an acceptable manner with the broad range of duties that fall upon you, including the consumer duty. In the interest of transparency, could you set out for the Committee your other concerns regarding potential conflicts if we do not get things right as we construct the code of practice?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you. I am hopeful that, through the informal conversations and the formal consultation that we are required to have on the code of practice, we will be able to set this up in such a way that everything interplays in an acceptable way.
You briefly mentioned direct deduction orders. I know you have some concerns about the debt recovery power, and this is an opportunity for you to set them out. Is there anything you want to elaborate on beyond what you have just said about that element of the powers we are proposing?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q We are looking to set a limit so the DWP would be able to deduct a maximum of 40% of an individual’s total capital as a lump sum. Would that satisfy you, or would you like us to look at that further?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Are there any other issues in your consumer duties, particularly your duties towards vulnerable account holders, that you have raised with the Government? The Minister has helpfully asked you that question in general terms, but I thought there may be other issues.
Going back to Daniel’s earlier comment, can you clarify that you do not yet have a clue regarding the volume of requests? Have you been given some sort of estimate by the Government?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q To follow up directly on that, the Government have not really been clear yet which further benefits might be added to the workload in future. Are you happy that this is left open in the Bill?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Those are helpful things to know. Did you have any more to say about vulnerable customers? I know we have had some representations from disabled people, for example.
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Disabled people who receive direct payments have expressed some concern that there can be underspends and that these can build up. They have asked for a particular account to be ringfenced for that, and essentially not looked at in relation to these measures. Is that feasible? What is your lead time for knowing that you would need to do it? Would it need to go into the Bill initially?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q I echo the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston about the really strong level of engagement. I welcome the conversations that we have had and that I know are ongoing with our teams. On the PSFA side of the Bill, I heard what you said about potential exemptions, but are there any other areas that you would like us to work on in detail as we move forward?
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Thank you very much.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q We see that there has been a lack of robust assessment of business costs so far. The Government have been unable to say what the cost to the banks will be. Do you have any concerns about the costs or the other impacts on businesses in the sectors? I suppose the flip question of that is: do you think there should be incentives to get them to actually work with it? It feels to me like there is a huge amount of good faith here, in that banks are expected to bear the costs of providing this information, but are there unforeseen costs that we need to be concerned about as well?
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
There being no further questions, I thank our witnesses for their evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witness
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear from Ellen Lefley, senior lawyer at Justice. We have until half-past 3 o’clock.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q You will have heard our previous questions. We talked about the cost-benefit analysis for businesses in the private sector. In your Justice work, what is your assessment of the proportionality of that measures in the Bill that, in essence, tell financial institutions that they have to share that information with the DWP? What do you perceive as the cost-benefit of that?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q On eligibility verification, the Government have said that the final decision will always be made by a human. There is an aim to automate some things, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but do you feel reassured by the human element at the end of the process, so that people are not adversely affected by automation, or are you concerned that that will still not be far enough or good enough?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Your last point about stop and search and decisions being made purely based on protected characteristics speaks to what you said earlier about the perceived impact on disabled people. Are you suggesting that the eligibility-verification measure would directly discriminate against disabled people, or is it merely that disabled people make up a larger number of the cohort?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Would that be the case in any preventive measure that we took in pursuit of tackling benefit fraud that did not come about as a direct result of suspicion of fraud? With anything that we try to do with the entire cohort, would we be open to that accusation?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q What is your view on its proportionality as a direct response to what has been a £35 billion challenge for the Department since covid? Given the increase in prevalence of both fraud and error—particularly fraud, which is estimate to have cost upwards of £7 billion—do you think that is a material consideration when assessing proportionality?
Sally Jameson (Labour/Co-operative, Doncaster Central)
To follow on from the Minister, clearly there is a lot of nervousness from you about looking into people’s finances to detect fraud and error. From your perspective, what would be the alternative? The country cannot afford to lose another £35 billion, so we need to find a way to ensure that does not happen. Given the level of nervousness that you have shown, what would you suggest that we do instead?Q
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q That was since the pandemic. The overall figure is £35 billion, and last year it was £9.7 billion.
Charlie Dewhirst (Conservative, Bridlington and The Wolds)
The Information Commissioner has indicated that some of the areas of previous concern on the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill have been answered. Do you not share that position, and do you continue to have concerns in that area?Q
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q I want to stay on the artificial intelligence framework. You have spoken about the changes being made in the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. Other than the undertakings given by Ministers, what legal restrictions would there be on the operation of artificial intelligence in decision-making and investigation under this Bill?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q What recourse would individuals have who are adversely affected, whether it is by machine-made decision making or even human decision making?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Thank you very much.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
There being no further questions, I thank the witness for her evidence. We will now move on to the next panel.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear evidence from Mark Cheeseman OBE, chief executive of the Public Sector Fraud Authority. We have until 3.50 pm.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q I want to go back to a question that I asked Mr Smart earlier. One of the main measures in the Bill is to move the PSFA from the Cabinet Office to make it an independent body. What do you see as the practical benefits? How will the public sector benefit from that new status?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q That independence is balanced with many of the provisions in the Bill, particularly around the information notices and the other Cabinet Office parts of the Bill, which come down to decision making by the Minister for the Cabinet Office. How does the independence of the PSFA interrelate with the personal sign-offs required by a specific Minister?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q The provisions in the Bill are fairly vague about who can exercise those powers directly. Compared with the investigatory powers created and set out in other legislation, should we be a bit more specific about what that experience, those qualifications or that seniority looks like?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Is there a reason why it is not possible to refer to those standards in the legislation, if that is the accepted norm?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q How close do you feel we are to having at least an idea of what a code of practice would look like, based on the PSFA’s experience in its current form?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q For those of us who have been asked to make a decision on whether the powers in the legislation before us are reasonable and proportionate, as we have heard from one witness after another today, it is very difficult to make that decision without knowing how they will be carried out in practice. That obviously means knowing what will be in such a code.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
We saw this in other legislation under the previous Government. It is not uncommon for Ministers to give an undertaking that at least a draft code might be published before legislation returns to Parliament for final decisions to be made. I know this is, perhaps, a question to ask of Ministers in a future session, but what are your thoughts on developing a draft code that parliamentarians might be able to look at whilst making those decisions, given that the legislation is now well under way? Is that something that you feel is a long way away, or would it be possible to have at least an outline of a draft code in a reasonably short period of time? I accept that there will be developments as we learn with experience.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q In terms of the obligations on organisations that are issued with information notices, based on your current experience, how many of the organisations that you approach asking for information typically respond within 10 days?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q It is absolutely a minimum, but is it correct that varying from that minimum is at the discretion of the Minister?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Does a review of the Minister’s decision also then go back to the original decision maker?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q It is certainly a minimum, but a decision as to whether that is the right period of time is very much made within the organisation that is asking for the information, rather than there being any formal and independent process for the person responding to that request to be able to say, “Actually, we just can’t do this”.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q But I am right in saying that that will be at a systemic level, rather than being able to say, case by case, “That was the wrong decision, and I am changing that decision.”
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I suspect Minister Gould will have the bulk of the questions for you, Mark, but I have a very general question. There has, understandably, been a lot of discussion and questions today about the balance between people’s privacy and being able to prevent fraud. What is your overall view on whether the Bill strikes the necessary balance between the two?
Michael Payne (Labour, Gedling)
Thank you for being with us, Mr Cheeseman. The National Audit Office put the amount of fraud and error outside the tax and benefits system at between £5 billion and £30 billion in 2023-24 alone. I wondered what your assessment, and the PSFA’s, is of the quantum of fraud against the public sector. Will you share a bit more about that with the CommitteeQ ?
Michael Payne (Labour, Gedling)
Q Throughout the previous witness sessions, there have been questions about concerns with respect to training for PSFA enforcement officers. I wondered whether you wanted to say anything more than you have already to the Committee about training for enforcement officers.
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q I want to build on the earlier line of questioning about Ministers’ sign-off. My under-standing is that the powers will be delegated to authorised officers and there will be no ministerial sign-off on any part of the investigation. That will rightly be separate. I think it would be helpful if you could clarify how that will work in practice.
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q And those authorised officers would make the decision about the timing to allow for information gathering; that would not be a ministerial decision.
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q Thank you. It would be helpful to hear from you about the work that the PSFA has been doing more broadly to consult, and to talk to other parts of the public sector and other experts, in developing this package and the thinking behind it.
Georgia Gould (Labour, Queen's Park and Maida Vale)
Q Concerns were raised earlier that the PSFA would take its eye off the ball on prevention and the wider area of work, and become an agency focused only on enforcement. It would be helpful if you could address and answer those concerns.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q This is possibly a slightly nuanced question, but there has been a lot of talk about the authorised officer role. To my mind, when you go from the Minister to the authorised officer, that feels like quite a big jump in title. It might be quite a small thing but, from your experience at the PSFA, does that terminology work when looking to expand beyond that, in terms of people’s understanding of how senior the people doing these investigations are? The word “officer” is often used, particularly in the public sector, to mean quite a junior role. How do we ensure that the public and people across the public sector understand how senior these people are? Does that need to be on the face of the Bill or in the code of practice? How would you look at that?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
There being no further questions, I thank the witness for his evidence and we will move on to the next panel.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear evidence from Jasleen Chaggar, the legal and policy officer at Big Brother Watch. We have until 4.10 pm.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q The Bill is sort of a move on from the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, which was introduced by the last Government. I know that the Information Commissioner had some concerns about the Bill’s previous iteration, and he has said that those concerns have roughly been addressed in this new Bill. Are you similarly reassured or do you have outstanding concerns about this piece of legislation?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q What would get you to a place of feeling more comfortable with those safeguards? A provision that you can use the data once and then you cannot use it again? Where would you need to see movement in order to get to a place where you were comfortable with the safeguards?
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Particularly in relation to bank account details and information on spending, and that sort of thing, which you just used as an example.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you for joining us. I have a couple of initial questions. You have neatly set out your position that there is no circumstance in which you would support the eligibility verification measure. I was interested when you said there are no other laws like this in the country. We heard from HMRC today about its ability to receive bulk data with regard to every interest-bearing bank account in the country, and it does that on a regular basis. How do you consider this power to be different from that one?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Can I just clarify, though? We have heard testimony from HMRC today that it receives bulk data on every interest-bearing account in the country, not only where there is suspicion. How do you perceive the power in the Bill, which you have described as unprecedented, to be distinct from those powers?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q To clarify, you accept that there are bulk data powers, but it is just a different cohort of people.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q It was not, but we will leave it there, because clearly you are not aware of the powers that I am referring to.
You talk about the inclusion of error, as well as fraud, in what we are attempting to do here. Do you accept that there is the potential, through the effective use of the eligibility verification measure, to detect overpayments through error sooner, thereby reducing any overpayment because it would come to light earlier?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you. I have a final question, which is about an assertion that you made towards the beginning of your contribution. As I understood it, you said that the eligibility verification measure was circular because if a flag was placed on an account, we could then just request the bank account statements. To clarify, do you accept that we are only able to utilise our information-gathering powers where there is a suspicion of fraud and, therefore, that it is not a mass power? It would only be where we had information that suggested that we needed to follow up on that because of a specific concern that had come to light.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I have one further question then, which is about the role that you perceive for banks and financial institutions in tackling fraud in the social security system. Could you ever countenance a scenario in which that would be of value and worth while?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Given that we have no way of knowing if somebody is in breach of the capital limit once they have given their word that that is not the case, how would you suggest that we detect that particular form of fraud where there is no suspicion of fraud because we do not know what somebody has in their bank account?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q What I am saying is that there would not be suspicion, because we would have absolutely no way of knowing. Is it your position that we should not attempt to address that issue, because there can never be a suspicion of what somebody has in their bank account without looking?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Thank you for coming along. I think we should ask you the same general questions that we have asked all the other witnesses who have given evidence today. Do you believe that the Bill is a proportionate way of dealing with fraud and error in the DWP? I think that has been put to you, but I want to be clear. Given the position that the Information Commissioner’s Office has more or less laid out—that it will need to see the code of conduct to feel reassured, and I think we have come to that conclusion from the evidence of a number of our guests today—would a sufficient code of conduct make you content with the Bill, or is there something particular in it that needs to go?
Siân Berry (Green, Brighton Pavilion)
Q Do you have anything more to say about what the unintended consequences of the Bill might be?
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
There being no further questions, I thank the witness for her evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
We will now hear oral evidence from Geoff Fimister, of the Campaign for Disability Justice, and Rick Burgess, from the Greater Manchester Disabled People’s Panel, who joins us via video link. For this panel, we have until 4.40 pm. I have introduced the witnesses already, so we will go straight to Rebecca Smith.
Rebecca Smith (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q Thank you, Chair, and thank you, gentlemen. We have heard quite a lot of concerns already this afternoon about the potential disproportionate impact on disabled people. It would be good to hear from you as disability campaigners—because we have kind of heard people talking on your behalf so far—about how you think the measures will affect disabled people, and what could be done to address the impacts that may result from the Bill.
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Could I come back on the last point you made, Rick, and the suggestion that this treats disabled people as a distinct part of the population under different rules and measures. The Bill targets the three benefits that have the highest levels of fraud and error at present: universal credit, pension credit and employment and support allowance. I would accept that there is a higher prevalence of people who are disabled in those cohorts, but this is not restricted exclusively to disabled people. Can you elaborate a little on how you feel that disabled people, in isolation, would be treated as a separate entity?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I would argue that we are accepting a different level of checking on the eligibility verification measure for everybody in receipt of those benefits. I would be perfectly happy to accept that there may be some indirect discrimination against disabled people by virtue of the fact that they are over-represented in the cohort, but are you suggesting that this would amount to direct discrimination?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Just to test that a little further, were we to do anything in the prevent space on fraud and error that sought to increase the safeguards and checks in place for all benefit claimants, is it your view that all of those would directly discriminate against disabled people because they are over-represented in the cohort?
Andrew Western (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
I will not ask any more questions, but I just say to Rick that I think it might be helpful for a follow-up conversation to take place. Without wishing to get into a protracted argument, there were some things that I did not recognise as part of the Bill, but clearly that is how people are feeling and how the people you represent are feeling. I am very happy to ask officials to pick up a conversation to go through the detail.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
There being no further questions, I thank the panel for their evidence, which was robustly delivered.
Desmond Swayne (Conservative, New Forest West)
For the final session, we have the Ministers in charge of the Bill. We have until 5 pm. You have been participating actively in the proceedings already, but could both of you please introduce yourselves for the record?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q A lot of the questions to witnesses today have revolved around the code of conduct. There are several parts of the Bill that refer to a code or codes of conduct. Can you give us an idea of how those will operate? Are we looking at a single code or multiple documents? What will their status be?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q Andrew, you have just come out of a period in opposition. You will understand the difficulty that this puts on Committee members being asked to consider legislation, fundamental aspects of which will depend on details in the code of practice. You seem to be suggesting that we will not see them until the House of Commons has completed all its stages.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q You say that you cannot bring forward the code at this point, because the Bill may change depending on amendments, yet you are able to bring forward a draft code ahead of the House of Lords Committee stage, where presumably, you will have rather less control over what amendments are passed. Surely if that argument were to hold at all, it would apply even more strongly to the House of Lords stages than to the House of Commons.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Kingswinford and South Staffordshire)
Q What role will Parliament have in scrutinising those codes of practice?