Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill
Public Bill Committee, 21 January 2025.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We are now sitting in public and proceedings are being broadcast. Today, we will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication, and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take these matters formally, without debate. I will first call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in her name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Examination of Witnesses
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We are now sitting in public again and the proceedings are being broadcast. Do any Members wish to make a declaration of interests?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
For the record, NAHT—National Association of Head Teachers—was my previous employer, before I came to this place.
Lizzi Collinge (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)
For the record, I am still a Lancashire county councillor. The council has responsibility for children’s services.
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Currently, I am a member of a union and was a workplace representative for a school before being elected.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
If any interests are particularly relevant to a Member’s question or speech, they should declare them again at the appropriate time.
We will now hear oral evidence from Dr Carol Homden, chief executive officer for Coram, and Anne Longfield, executive chair of the Centre for Young Lives. Will you briefly introduce yourselves and say a word or two about your work before we start any questioning?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you. We will start our questioning.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
The first question is for Dr HomdenQ . You talked about some of the things in the Bill that you would like to see amended. I wonder whether you could expand on that, and particularly your point about the timeliness of intervention.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
I have follow-up questions specifically about some of the measures in the Bill about family group decision making—a thing that a lot of people Q generally are very supportive of. My only slight concern about it is at what stage in the process that happens, and whether, if it is at the point where you are seeking a court order, that is possibly too late in the process, where it is no longer voluntary or consensual. I wonder whether you thought we should look at bringing that forward in the process, or—you mentioned young children—whether it is something that needs to happen much earlier, particularly for the under-twos and the particularly vulnerable child in dangerous households.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Do you share, Dr Homden, the concern that we should be very clear that this should not delay decision making?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
This is a reminder to Members that is important to catch the Clerk’s eye if you want to ask a question. We will try to get everybody in during the morning and give everybody the same crack of the whip. I will now call the Minister to ask questions.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q Good morning. The first question is to you, Carol. On introduction of the Bill, Coram said:
“This Bill presents a new opportunity for services and agencies supporting vulnerable children to work together and make this a reality.”
Will you outline the key measures that you feel support that in the Bill?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q What consideration have you given to the impact that creating a duty for safeguarding partners to make arrangements to establish multi-agency child protection teams will have?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q Anne, the Centre for Young Lives has welcomed the Bill, stating:
“It addresses issues we have been very concerned about over many years, including vulnerable children falling through the gaps and into danger.”
Will you elaborate on how you feel the Bill better protects children and keeps them safe?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
My main objective is to try to get all the Back Benchers in, so we want crisp questions. It is very important that everybody feels they can get in. I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
You have both referred to wellbeing. The Bill is called the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, but there is precious little in it on wellbeing. Other than measurement and making sure that children’s voices are at the forefront, what more can we be pressing the Government for on wellbeing in the Bill?Q
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Dr Homden, you have talked about the lack of provision for children with special educational needs. What do you make of the power in the Bill for local authorities to refuse parents the right to withdraw their children from a special school to home educate if they do not feel that the special school is meeting their children’s needs?
Lizzi Collinge (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)
Q Anne, you said that family group decision making can be fantastic if done well. What are your thoughts about how prescriptive the statutory guidance should be on the format of those family group decision meetings?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
You have enthused about family group decision making. Do you think it would be useful at other stages in the process, particularly in approaching families for unification at the point of discharge for care leavers?Q
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
I would like to ask about the requirement for local authorities to offer Staying Close. We have seen some success with that in Southampton, but from the direct work of both your organisations, do you think that the Staying Close offer meets the most pressing needs of care leavers, or are there other things that the Bill should consider?Q
Patrick Spencer (Conservative, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
Family group decision making is a well-evidenced practice, yet this Bill mandates it. Do we really need a Bill to mandate it, especially considering that a lot of children come into these situations when they are at risk of neglect from their carers? Cannot the virtue and the hope of this amendment, and the idea of family group decision making, be instructed through guidance? Does it need to be mandated through a Bill?Q
Patrick Spencer (Conservative, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
Q What about children who are at risk of neglect at the hands of the carer? Do you think family group decision making is an appropriate step that a child safeguarding team should be mandated to practise at that point?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Order. I am going to interrupt you there, as we still have two more people to get in.
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q It is clear that we need strong partnerships to stop children slipping through the cracks, which happens far too often. What do you think will be the impact of creating the duty of safeguarding for partnerships to establish the multi-agency child protection teams? What lessons must we learn?
David Baines (Labour, St Helens North)
In your view, are the measures in the Bill proportionate for improving child safeguarding and protecting children? Local authorities’ spend on looked-after children in the past decade or so has increased from about £3.5 billion to over £8 billion a year. Will the measures in the Bill help to address that and bring it down?Q
David Baines (Labour, St Helens North)
Q So your view is not that it goes too far, but that in some cases it does not go far enough?
David Baines (Labour, St Helens North)
Q What about the overall spend?
Tom Hayes (Labour, Bournemouth East)
Before I was elected, I ran a domestic abuse and mental health charity, so I can definitely speak to the value of the mandate, even in a local authority setting, which was excellent. Anne, are the other measures in the Bill proportionate to the aim of driving local integration and making sure that the child is at the centre of all decision making?Q
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
We talked earlier about the measurement of wellbeing. There are surveys of children’s wellbeing by various organisations now: the Office of the Children’s Commissioner—your old office, Anne—does something, the King’s Trust does something, UNICEF has done an international survey and so on. What would the output of the surveys you envisage be used for?Q
Could you also say a word or two about the mental health of children and young people survey, wave 4 of which was most recently published by the NHS and the future of which is uncertain? Would you like to see that series of surveying and reporting carried on?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
That brings us to the end of this session. I thank our witnesses.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear oral evidence from two more witnesses. We must stick to the timings: this session must end at 10.30 am. Will you briefly introduce yourselves, please?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Thank you for coming. We have an important principle in local government called the new burdens doctrine, which is that if the Government put a burden on local government, they pay for it. Given the various new duties and obligations that the Bill will place on local government, do you agree that that principle should be followed and that local government should be funded to implement those duties? Secondly, what is your understanding of the current situation? Is funding being offered to implement the duties in the Bill?Q
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Would you like to see resourcing clearly specified in this Bill?Q
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
That is very helpful. Clause 18 provides for regulations to be made on agency workers and their pay. We would all like to spend less on all these different things, but even though we might be sympathetic to the ideas in the Bill, do you agree that if we just cap prices without taking action on supply, it will fail, because the underlying cause of the high prices has everything to do with supply and planning over time?Q
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Are there any other ways in which you would like to see the Bill amended?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q Thank you both for being witnesses before the Committee. A question to you both: what impact will the Bill have on children and their families entering, or at risk of entering, the children’s social care system?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q How do local authorities currently discharge their duty to ensure that children receive a suitable education? What impact will the measures in the Bill have on this?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q The register of children not in school is supported by many parties and organisations, but under clause 25 a huge amount of detailed information will be requested of parents. In your professional view, Andy, do you think your directors of children’s services need all this information to safeguard children? If so, why?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Ruth, the Bill gives the Secretary of State powers to implement, if necessary, profit capping on private providers of children’s care homes and fostering agencies. It is very clear that there is a huge amount of profiteering. Do you think that is the right way to go about tackling the issue, and what could it mean for sufficiency of places?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q With your experiences in mind, do you think it is right that local authorities that want to open new schools can currently only seek proposals for academies? Under the Bill, they will be able to invite proposals for other types of school. What implications do you think that will have for pupils?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q I want to ask about elective home education, but first, very quickly, we are going to legislate in this Bill for the provision of breakfast at primary schools. Has either of your organisations received any guarantees about the future of existing support for breakfast clubs in secondary schools, or the future of the holiday activities and food programme?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Forgive me, but that is a different question. We know what the legislation proposes for primary school breakfast, but my question was about whether you have heard anything—whether you have had any guarantees—about the future of existing support for breakfast clubs in secondary schools in underprivileged areas, or for the holiday activities and food programme.
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q Turning to elective home education, as Munira Wilson said, there is a great deal of detail in the Bill about information that will be required of parents—for example, the allocation of individual parents’ time dedicated to the education of that child, and so on. Andy, I think you rather diplomatically said that perhaps we needed some reflection on the text. I wondered if you might reflect out loud, and say if you think it goes into an unnecessary level of detail that might be considered rather onerous for parents who are home educating—sometimes in very difficult circumstances—and indeed for your colleagues in local government. Have you made an estimate of how much cost would come with this system?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q A question that often comes up with electively home-educating parents is about the support that is or is not available to them in their efforts. The Bill does make provision for support to those parents, but on page 55, it says:
“The advice and information to be provided is whatever the local authority considers fit”.
You mentioned a moment ago that there would be some benefit in having more consistency across the country. Would you give a few thoughts on what you think “fit” is in terms of that support? In particular, a question that often comes up from parents is about entry into examinations.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We still have six keen people wanting to come in, so can we have brief single questions and answers, please?
Lizzi Collinge (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)
Q I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that I am a corporate parent in Lancashire. I am interested in the powers on financial oversight and profit caps on residential children’s homes in particular. What impact do you foresee that having on the resources you have available to look after children?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q Clause 8 specifies that local authorities need to set out a local offer. You have talked about the need to avoid fragmentation, and about corporate responsibility across the country and across Departments. Would you like to see the Bill amended to require a national offer of support to care leavers, and what do you think should be in it?
Catherine Atkinson (Labour, Derby North)
We heard in earlier evidence that spending on early intervention has reduced while crisis costs have significantly increased. What do you think will be the impact of early intervention, including family group decision making, primarily on outcomes but also, in the longer term, on costsQ ?
Patrick Spencer (Conservative, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
Q I completely agree on the need for stable safeguarding teams, and they are in the better interests of children, but can you completely rule out any risk that a statutory cap on the use of agency workers will lead to people leaving the profession?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Q With the requirement for registers of electively home-educated students, do you anticipate a sizeable decrease in the number of children missing education?
Tom Hayes (Labour, Bournemouth East)
Q Before the election I visited Linwood school’s Charminster site, and I spoke to a young girl with support needs around SEND. She told me about a meeting with a new social worker, who asked her how her parent was. She had to tell the social worker that her parent had died. That is just one of many examples of social workers who pick up new cases and do not have time to read notes. We have constant churn, and we know some of the human cost. Can you speculate about or estimate some of the financial savings from reinvesting into a permanent workforce the money that would be spent on local agency social workers? How much would local councils benefit from this measure?
Ian Sollom (Liberal Democrat, St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire)
You have mentioned a couple of times the change with elective home education from philosophy to reasons around the provision in schools. Do you have thoughts on what accountability there should be for schools? Ofsted currently inspects the schools, and it does not look at reasons why children might not be in school electively. Is there some mechanism that you see around that?Q
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We have 30 seconds. We have to stick to the programme motion; I am sorry.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much to our witnesses.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear oral evidence from Julie McCulloch, senior director of strategy, policy and professional development services at the Association of School and College Leaders, and Paul Whiteman, general secretary of the National Association of Head Teachers. You are very welcome. Do you both want to say a brief word of introduction?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Good morning, and thank you for coming. Julie, on your logistical questions, ASCL said in its statement that
“work will be needed to get these measures right…Further changes must be done with care and must not seem ideological.”
You talked about some of the issues that you want to see addressed as we amend the Bill. What are they?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Can I press you on that one? I do not understand from the Bill how breakfast clubs are supposed to work. Obviously, many primary schools already offer a breakfast club, and they charge for it. If you are now supposed to offer 30 minutes and a free breakfast—I think the going rate will be 60p in the first wave—how does that work with schools’ current charging arrangements? Are they allowed to charge before that period, so there will be both charging and a free session? Is that your understanding of what the Bill does?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q So you will have two tiers. What is your understanding of the position on secondary school breakfast clubs? Have you had any undertakings on the future of the free school breakfast programme that exists in secondary schools, or the holiday activities and food programme? Is it your understanding that there is secure funding for those things?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q You would welcome greater certainty about those things, presumably.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Is there anything else that you would like amended in the schools section of the Bill?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Do you think it is sometimes better to have a good professional person whom the head thinks is a good teacher, rather than no teacher at all?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q You can be a good teacher even if you do not have QTS. You can be the right person.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Do you have a sense that a large number of schools are not providing a broad and balanced education at the moment? Do you have a sense of how many schools are not following the national curriculum?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q What do you think the problem is that that measure is trying to solve?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q When it comes to school admissions, do you think the measures in the Bill will help local authorities to fulfil their statutory duties? Could you comment on how you think it will impact on children and schools?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q Great. From your experience, do you think it is important that a school’s individual circumstances are taken into account when you are determining the best and appropriate action to drive school improvement where a school may be under--performing, such as whether it is a maintained school? Do you consider that conversion to an academy by default might not always be in the best interests of every school and the children within it?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Leaving aside the register, looking at the schools part of the Bill—and knowing the challenges your members up and down the country face—do you think it has the right priorities in terms of the issues we need to be tackling across schools and colleges?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q You mention recruitment and retention as a key issue—we know that it is a massive issue —yet in a previous answer you said you were concerned that the qualified teacher status changes might reduce supply. In your professional judgment, what impact might the QTS measures and the constraints on pay and conditions have on recruitment and retention? What is it that you think will be beneficial for R&R?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Obviously, breakfast clubs are for primary schools, but hunger does not end at 11. Do either of you think that we should be extending provision of free school meals right up to 18?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q A quick question for Julie. You said it was not clear whether the Bill currently delivers a floor, not a ceiling. Would you welcome it if we all passed an amendment to make that very clear?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q What is the importance in the Bill of providing a clear legal basis for sharing information with the purpose of safeguarding and promoting the welfare of children?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q I did some rough calculations, and I think 3.1% of full-time equivalent teachers do not have QTS. In 2010, which happens to be the year the data series started, it was 3.2%. On pay and conditions, no one seems to have come forward with any widespread evidence of schools paying less than what might be this floor condition. In your estimation, what problem are the Government trying to solve with these two measures?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q Paul, you like to speculate—come on.
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q I think a lot of people see the measures in the Bill on flexibilities for schools, on academies and on the national curriculum as quite a dramatic change, or a dramatic undoing of reforms made to the school system over the course of multiple Governments over the last couple of decades. Paul, you said in your opening remarks that this is not “a revolution”. My question is: come the revolution, what should we expect to see in Labour’s next Bill?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I think that is not a terribly serious question, Damian. Darren, let us get on with it.
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
It is a serious question.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
It is not part of the Bill, and we have to stick to this Bill.
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
Q My question is about qualified teacher status, and the Bill is obviously about either having or working towards that. Do you think it is a reasonable expectation that, whatever your expertise and subject knowledge, if you are teaching, you are trained to teach? Do you think that remains a reasonable expectation?
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
Q My main question is about safeguarding. I know from experience that the good relationships between the different agencies, particularly schools and the local authorities, are forged locally, and therefore they depend on almost a bit of a lottery. Do you think that mandating will resolve that issue? Will that satisfy the leaders and the designated safeguarding leads who you speak to that they now have the position and the basis for a much stronger relationship through what is being mandated?
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
Q Are those expectations clear enough?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q The Bill talks about breakfast clubs, but says nothing about free school meals more widely. Would you like to see an expansion of eligibility for free school meals?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Could you elaborate on that?
David Baines (Labour, St Helens North)
Q I am sure that we would all agree that we want to see high standards in every school for every child, whether that is for academic attainment and achievement or for safeguarding outcomes. In your view—broadly speaking; we have limited time—does the Bill help or hinder the ambition of high and rising standards in every school for every child?
Patrick Spencer (Conservative, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
Q I want to talk about school improvement. Paul, I think you said earlier that you were confident in the RISE teams as a policy. When we FOI-ed commitments to the RISE teams, we found that the east of England, where my constituency is, will have four people from the RISE teams. We have thousands of schools, and probably hundreds that require improvement, yet only four people. Can you qualify why you have confidence in the RISE teams to deliver a school improvement offer? Can you also speak to what more could be done in the Bill to ensure that there is a proper school improvement offer?
Patrick Spencer (Conservative, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
Q Do you think school improvement is best delivered at the Department for Education in a big office somewhere, or in a school with people on location?
Patrick Spencer (Conservative, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
Q How do you see the role of local authorities with multi-academy trusts? Are they just replacing what was already going on?
Ian Sollom (Liberal Democrat, St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire)
Q I think I am quoting you correctly in saying that academisation was not a silver bullet. Could you elaborate on the factors that are in play where it has not worked in particular areas?
Ian Sollom (Liberal Democrat, St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire)
Q What is the difference with the maintained school if that is sitting quite isolated around other academies? It has not got that in-place support around it. How does that work effectively—is it better than re-brokering to another academy?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I thank our witnesses.
Examination of Witness
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear oral evidence from Jacky Tiotto, chief executive of CAFCASS—the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service. Please could you introduce yourself?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Good morning and thank you for coming. Clause 1 states:
“Before a local authority in England makes an application for an order”
it has to
“offer a family group decision-making meeting”.
Those meetings are generally a very good thing. They are in statutory guidance already, but I have two nagging worries as we move to mandate a good thing, as it were. The first is about pace. I worry that through people using the courts or their legal rights, some people will slow this down, or I worry that the local authority will sometimes worry about fulfilling this requirement when the priority should be the pace of getting a child away from a dangerous family. And I worry, on the other hand, that because we are saying that they should think about this and do more of these meetings just before they put an order in, you are at the point where the meeting is not going to be that useful because you are already not into a consensual process. We want to try and get local authorities to do this earlier more often. Do you have worries about the pace, particularly for very young, very vulnerable children? Could we amend the clause to try to address some of my nagging doubts?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q What is the average length of time?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Is a number of weeks a potentially dangerous thing?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q So if you had the power, you could get this Bill into exactly the way you would draft it. With lots of experience in this world, you would change it so that we moved this thing in clause 1, part 1, so that it was focused on the point where there are initial child protection conversations rather than being in addition to. That is incredibly helpful. Is there anything else you would do to amend the Bill?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q My real question is: what would you amend? We are trying to find out how we should change the Bill as it goes through.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
What would that look likeQ ? Do you have to do a case review?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q Jacky, thanks for presenting evidence to the Committee. I have two questions: one about local authorities, the second about kinship. On local authorities, what impact do you think mandating local authorities to offer a family group decision-making meeting will have on families and children?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q That is really helpful. On kinship then, you will be familiar with the independent review of children in social care and the recommendations around kinship carers receiving greater recognition and support. There are obviously a number of measures in the Bill in that regard. What impact do you think the Bill will have on kinship care and those who care for those in kinship?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q CAFCASS seeks to make sure that decisions are made in the best interests of the child, and that the child is heard. How child-centred do you think the legislation is as drafted, in particular with regards to family group decision making?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q The Bill as drafted says that the child “may” attend a meeting if the local authority deems it appropriate. Would you agree with me that it should be the default that the child should attend unless the local authority thinks it inappropriate?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Absolutely. Could I follow up on the Minister’s question on kinship? You say you support relatives being involved in looking after children. It is great that a local offer is going to be published by every local authority, but every local authority has a different offer, frankly. What more do we think we could be doing to ensure that more kinship carers can step up and support children who would otherwise end up in local authority care?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q I want to take a step back from where you would be involved. What do you think the impact will be of creating the duty of safeguarding partnership to make arrangements to establish a multi-agency child protection team?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q To follow up a little, do you think the Bill does enough to centre the voices of children ? You have talked particularly about that in terms of family decision making, but are there other aspects of the Bill where you would like to see amendments made?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q And Staying Close?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q What about the idea of expanding Staying Put in addition to the expansion of Staying Close?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q You would like to see that too.
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q Because that is missing from this Bill.
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q What would you like to see, ideally?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q Or even beyond 21.
Catherine Atkinson (Labour, Derby North)
Q We have seen the number of children in care rising really significantly. Looking at the child protection measures, the kinship clauses and the family group conferencing, what do you feel the overall impact of Bill will be on the numbers of children in care?
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
Q The Bill proposes a number of measures on illegal children’s homes and a topic you have already mentioned a couple of times—deprivation of liberty, when that does not necessarily need to be in a secure children’s home. What are your reflections on how effective that is going to be in terms of protecting vulnerable children? Do you foresee in particular any impact on family court proceedings if there is now a different outcome in terms of what judges can decide?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Order. I am afraid that under the programme motion we have to end exactly on time. I apologise. Thank you very much, everybody.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Before we take evidence from further witnesses, we have a declaration of interest.
Lizzi Collinge (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)
I want to make the Committee aware that I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary humanist group. That may become relevant because of evidence submitted to the Committee.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Thank you. I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, but as I will not be making any comments, that may not be relevant.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Thank you for coming—welcome. I want to ask for your view on the second half of the Bill, on schools. We have heard a lot of criticism of it from the Confederation of School Trusts, some of our leading trusts and, indeed, a couple of Labour MPs. What is your view on the schools, rather than the wellbeing, part of the Bill?Q89
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q What do you think of the curtailment of academy freedoms in the Bill? It has now been published, so you have seen it, albeit that you were not talked to before. What do you think about the moves to scale back the academy programme, the end of academy orders, and LAs setting up new schools? If you were doing this, is that the direction you would want to go in?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Dame Siobhain McDonagh) has raised some concerns, as has the Confederation of School Trusts, about the end of academy orders and the fact that because academisation is no longer automatic, there will once again be the prospect of legal action, lots of community campaigns against these things, and potentially quite long delays. She said on Second Reading that children in those schools do not have time to wait. Do you agree with her?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q Dame Rachel, thank you for giving evidence to the Committee today. Returning to the benefits of the Bill, can you explain what you think the benefits of introducing a single unique identifier will be to the safeguarding of all children?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Dame Rachel, you said that you are meant to be the voice of children. I know you have made it your mission, through your various reports and surveys, to make sure that you amplify the voices of children. To what extent do you think their priorities and concerns are reflected in the Bill, and what more could we be doing to reflect them?Q
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Coming back to child protection, you mentioned Professor Jay, whom I also met last week. The unique identifier will help with data sharing if we can get the systems right, but she also felt that a child protection agency that had national standards for lots of bodies and made sure that children did not fall through the gaps was really important. The Bill does not include that. Would you support such a measure?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Several Members want to be called. I cannot call everybody.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
If I do not call you in this session, I will call you in a future one. Can we have questions to the point, so we can get on, please?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
I am sorry if this is a blunt question, but on 18 April 2022, you wrote an opinion piece for theQ Telegraph alongside Nadine Dorries, who was then the Culture Secretary. In that article, you said that the Conservative manifesto was “our manifesto”. Are giving evidence here today from your personal opinion or in your role, given that you called the 2019 Conservative manifesto “our manifesto”?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q So, to answer my question, you are giving evidence as the commissioner.
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Dame Rachel, can you talk a little about the register of children not in school? What is the irreducible core of what we need to know and what information should be gathered in those cases?Q
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
We will have one final, brief question—hopefully with a brief answer—from Darren Paffey.
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
The Bill seeks to move on from a fixation on structures and get back to outcomes and wellbeing. If I have understood your earlier comments, you welcome that. Do you think the Bill will sufficiently break that link between a child’s background and their future success? Do you believe that the measures will move us closer to that?Q
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
That brings us to the end of this session. I know there are other Members who want to get in; I will try to call you during the next session.
Examination of Witnesses
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Will the witnesses from Ofsted please introduce themselves?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Thank you for coming. I have some short questions that do not need particularly long answers. Have you found evidence that academy schools are not teaching a broad and balanced curriculum? Are you finding lots of academies not doing that?Q
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Is there a major problem with schools employing teachers without qualified teacher status? Are non-QTS teachers not up to scratch? Would you regard it as a red flag if a school were employing non-QTS teachers? Would it make you think, “We’re probably heading towards a bad result here”?Q
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Do you recognise that sometimes a school can bring someone in who might be at a later point in their career and be highly specialised—perhaps a great sportsman, an IT person or a scientist—and that if the headteacher takes the view that they would be a good person for teaching, as an alternative to having no teacher, that can be the right decision?Q
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
The Bill will remove the academy order. How will the intervention regime work in future? At the moment, the Ofsted handbook states thatQ
“if any key judgement is inadequate…we will place the school in a formal category of concern.”
How will that work in future? If a school is in the bottom tier of one of your new categories of assessment, what will happen?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Are we still waiting to hear what that intervention regime will look like?Q
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
It will help if those Members who wanted to ask a question last time but were not called indicate if they want to ask a question in this session.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q Is Ofsted pleased to see the measures in this Bill, in the round?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q You have already set out the impact that the Bill will have on Ofsted’s powers. I imagine that you spend a large proportion of your time worrying about the most vulnerable children in society. What do you think will be the impact of the Bill on those children who are most in need?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q You talked about the additional powers that you are being given, and you mentioned AP as an area where you would like it to go further. Is there anywhere else where you would like it to go further? Importantly, do you feel that Ofsted has the capacity and capability to deliver on all this? When I talk to local government, I often hear that there are quite a lot of delays with Ofsted.
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q I want to pick up on Neil’s question about the automatic intervention by Ofsted where, with a failing school, an academy order is put in place. I am just a bit perplexed by the timing of the Bill. Although I support the provision that it should not always be automatic, given that you are only just about to launch a consultation on your framework, and perhaps the Department around the accountability measures, are we moving too soon in the Bill before we have had the consultation on your new framework?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Sir Martyn, you mentioned in relation to Neil’s question that staff, not necessarily with qualified teacher status, can be a great supplement. I agree that they can be, but can you just clarify that that “supplement” means a supplement, not the main teacher for the whole academic year, year on year?Q
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Q Just to clarify, that is alongside fully qualified teachers, not instead of?
Patrick Spencer (Conservative, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)
That is an interesting point, Sir Martyn. You had the freedom to hire a teacher when you saw fit. We have just heard that the Government intend this Bill to be predominantly about setting and improving standards in our school system, but it does curtail certain freedoms for schools. Have you any thoughts on the freedoms that are being curtailed in this Bill? Also, in your experience at Ofsted, what are the components that are necessary and common when schools turn around and you see them improve?Q
Catherine Atkinson (Labour, Derby North)
We heard from the Children’s Commissioner that the number of children who are missing from education and at risk of child sexual exploitation has been getting worse. I am interested in your views as to why.Q
Catherine Atkinson (Labour, Derby North)
Q You were talking about “broad and balanced”. Given the 47% drop in arts subjects at GCSE, do you feel that more needs to be done to ensure that we have an even broader range of subjects that can be enjoyed?
Catherine Atkinson (Labour, Derby North)
I am very pleased to hear it.
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Thank you for being with us today, Sir Martyn. When your HMIs find academies or academy trusts significantly deviating from the national curriculum, what are the usual reasons and in what ways do they deviate?Q
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q When they do deviate, what do the reasons tend to be?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q What would be the impact, in the framework and in the inspection outcome, if the school were not following a broad and balanced curriculum?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q Finally, on the different subject of elective home education, quite a lot of detail is proposed in the Bill about the way the register of children not in school will work, including some requirements on the registration of providers of education to those individuals, whether that be online education or some other form of tutoring. How much consultation has there has been with Ofsted about the drawing up of those provisions?
Lizzi Collinge (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)
Q I want to talk about unregulated schools and the register of children not in school. I have seen evidence outside the Committee that shows that there are serious concerns about poor education in unregulated settings, as well as abuse and neglect. If you have any comments about what the problem is that the Bill is trying to solve, I and other members of the Committee would like to hear them. How will the new powers relating to unregulated schools allow you to protect children at risk of harm, specifically? Will they be an improvement on the current powers that you have?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
On balance, do you welcome the provisions in the Bill to ensure that all schools follow the national curriculumQ ?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of this session, and we will move on to the next panel of witnesses.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
If Members did not get in for a question last time but indicate that they would like to this time, I will try to call them. We now have witnesses from a number of children’s organisations. Could you just begin by introducing yourselves, please?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Thank you. I will hand over to Neil O’Brien, the Opposition spokesperson.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Thank you for coming. Are there any things in the Bill that you think we should amend as it goes through? Are there things that you would like to improve further, or any ways that you would like us to change the Bill? Why don’t we start with Lynn?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Can you unpack that a little bit?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q Mark, getting straight to the point, are there any amendments that you would like to see?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q Thank you for being witnesses before the Committee today. My first question is to Mark and Lynn. Mark, you mentioned the benefits of breakfast clubs earlier. Could you say a bit more about what you think the benefits will be for families during a cost of living crisis?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q Thank you, Mark. I have a similar question to you, Lynn, but perhaps around the branded school uniform measures.
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q That is really helpful. Briefly—Katharine, what impact do you think the measures will have on care leavers and the support that they receive?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Now Lib Dem spokesperson Munira Wilson.
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Mark, you pointed out that this is a children’s wellbeing Bill but there is not actually much discussion about wellbeing in the Bill. You talked about a national wellbeing measurement. Beyond that, and if we had that data, could the Bill go further in terms of talking about the provision of services to support children’s wellbeing and mental health?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q Katharine, do you think we could go further with this Bill in terms of unregistered, unregulated accommodation for young people in care, which has been a topic of many a scandal in recent years?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
A number of Members want to get in. I ask Members to direct their question to whoever you think might be the most appropriate to answer it, and then if the other members of the panel say they agree, we will move forward. If they do not, of course they can say that.
Tom Hayes (Labour, Bournemouth East)
I think this question is for Mark. Before I was elected, for five years, I ran a service in support of survivors of child sexual abuse. Hearing the Children’s Commissioner say, just before you, that every report makes the same set of recommendations and at the heart of that is better multi-agency working, would you talk about the ways in which the Bill helps to drive that integration at a local level, and helps facilitate that multi-agency working to keep children safeQ ?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q Lynn, what is your view on the fact that the Bill does not contain provisions to give children equal protection from violence to adults?
Ellie Chowns (Green, North Herefordshire)
Q So you would like to see the Bill amended in that way?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q Keeping children safe and safeguarding are key priorities that you guys have a lot of expertise in. Many experts have talked about the widening attainment gap and the rising number of children out of school. Most of them are our most disadvantaged and vulnerable. What difference do you think the Bill’s provisions will make to those children on things such as admissions, the ability of local authorities to plan school places, and collaborative working across local authorities and across services, so that they have an appropriate and safe school place?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q I want to come back to breakfasts, if I may. I think this is a question for Mark. The Bill legislates for universal breakfast provision at primary school, but is silent on what happens at secondary school. We do not know what will happen. The Government have been asked, including by Government Back Benchers, to extend the provision to secondary school. They have made the point, which is not an unreasonable point, that you have to make choices in a resource-constrained world, and their choice is to go universal at primary, but with quite a small per child, per day cash allowance. Recognising the resource-constrained world, would you make that choice if you were in the same position, or would you say it was better to target according to how deprived an area is—not by individual child, but by area—regardless of the age of the child?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
It would be the whole school, as it is now under the school breakfast programme.
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q This is probably for Lynn or Katharine. In terms of trying to address mental health issues as they arise early on, before they become a crisis, following the change in Government, are you aware of any change in the approach towards mental health support in schools through mental health support teams for clusters of schools?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Finally, Darren Paffey. We have about 90 seconds left.
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
Q Clauses 13 and 14 make provision for the financial oversight of care providers, and clause 9 looks at better regional arrangements for accommodation. What are your views on how effective that will be in improving provision for the care of children?
Darren Paffey (Labour, Southampton Itchen)
Q To what extent does the regional co-operation deal with sufficiency?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
I understand that this session should run until 3.15 pm.
David Baines (Labour, St Helens North)
Good afternoon. Can you tell us briefly, in your own words, about the urgency—in your view—or otherwise of the Bill? We all agree that your organisations do outstanding, amazing, essential work with vulnerable children and young people up and down the country. How has the landscape for children changed in the last decade? Have things got better for them or worse? Is the Bill needed or notQ ?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
I thank all the witnesses for coming today and giving evidence to the Committee. We now move on to our next panel.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
We now move on to representatives from the Churches. Could you begin by introducing yourselves, please?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Thank you both for coming. My first question is to you, Paul. The last Government promised to lift the cap on faith school admissions and Q consulted on doing just that. Is that something you would still like to happen and potentially be put into the Bill?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Do you have a timescale for when the Government are going on reply to that consultation?Q
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
I just wondered whether we might get an answer during the passage of the Bill. I have a question for both of you. There was a thought-provoking leader in the Q TES the other morning that talked about the lack of discussion in the Bill, as well as more generally, on discipline. The Bill is largely silent on discipline, even though we know it is one the biggest issues affecting teachers, and Teacher Tapp surveys show that it is a huge issue for teachers and many students as well. Do you have particular thoughts on what you would like to see in the Bill, or more broadly, on discipline that would improve your ability to run orderly schools and protect teachers? There are obviously things out there like behaviour hubs, the discipline survey and questions about alternative provision. You both have very deep experience across the whole piece, so I am interested in your thoughts about what we could be doing further in the Bill and more generally.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q One of the major changes in the Bill is the extension of the national curriculum, for the first time, to absolutely all schools. At the same time, the curriculum is being changed and rewritten. I have a high-level question and a specific one. The high-level one is about the different visions for our schools. One vision would stress the importance of diversity and argue that there are different ways of educating and that schools can and should do things differently. I do not know whether you buy into that vision.
My second, more specific question is whether there is anything you would have concerns about being in the curriculum. I am particularly thinking of religious education and topics like that. Are there ideas out there that you would be concerned about being forced into all schools?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
We do not want to go too far into the curriculum today, because it is not really part of the Bill.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Q Thank you for being here today. What is your assessment generally of the impact of the Bill on faith schools?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Q I want to pick up on the faith cap issue that the hon. Member for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston raised. The 50% faith cap for all new free schools was a policy put in place by the coalition Government. There are concerns that the provisions in this Bill to allow other providers to open new schools would mean that the faith cap does not apply to them. Nigel, I know you are on the record as saying that Church of England schools should be inclusive and serve the whole local community. What do you think will be the impact of losing that faith cap, and should we be putting in an amendment to ensure that the cap is in place for all new schools?
Munira Wilson (Liberal Democrat, Twickenham)
Nigel, I was interested that you said that 65% of small rural primaries are Church of England schools. The Bill’s provisions state that breakfast clubs will be a universal offering. Will those small rural primary schools have the capacity to deliver what is laid out in the legislation?Q
Lizzi Collinge (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)
I want to follow up on a couple of previous questions and make sure that I have clarity about something that I appreciate is complex. This is about faith selection, particularly in relation to clause 51. Do you expect that Church of England and Catholic schools—if you have any information about other faith groups, I welcome it, but I appreciate that you do not represent other faith groups—in the short, medium or long term will use the changes brought in by clause 51 to open new schools with 100% faith-based selection?Q
Lizzi Collinge (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)
Q May I clarify? In certain circumstances, yes, you would like to have schools with 100% place selection?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q I would like to go back to the curriculum—
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Order. Is that relevant to the Bill? As long as you relate it directly to the Bill—
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
I promise you, Mr Betts, that it will be relevant to the Bill. As Nigel I think rather charitably said, his schools would be “asked” to sign up to something without knowing what the something is—but I do not think they are going to be asked, Nigel; I think they are going to be told. You also said that we hope—I include myself in that “we”—that it will be a broad framework, which will allow everyone to do their distinctive thing, as they do today. That is a hope, but we do not know. For example, there is a movement to rebrand religious education as “world views”—does that make you nervous?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q To keep us both in order—
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Order. You will emphasise that this must relate to the Bill.
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
I will, absolutely. Do you feel any nervousness or concern about the removal of the safety valve that says academy schools can deviate from the national curriculum?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q RE is not the only sensitive subject; there is also English literature, history or RSHE. My question had a religious bent to it, but it was really about taking away that safety valve and that ability of academy trusts to say, “We are not going to follow precisely what has been set out.”
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q We have just talked a little about the admissions arrangements for VA and VC schools. You have also alluded to the fact that rolls are falling in many places—they are falling initially mostly in primary, but that will feed through. Are you concerned about the more directive nature of what will be available to councils and the position that that would put your schools in, particularly voluntary aided schools? On the question of new schools, as you rightly pointed out, Paul, it has always been possible to open a VA school—it is not a very well-known fact that some VA schools have opened. With this Bill, do you think it is more or less likely that in the near future you will be able to open more Catholic schools?
Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)
Q Forgive me—we are very short on time. I was talking about a council’s ability to stop a popular school expanding, for example. You both mentioned earlier that you have some really quite popular schools, and now the council will have much more an ability not to let that happen.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough, Oadby and Wigston)
Q I have a very specific question on small rural primary schools attempting to deliver breakfast clubs, potentially with a very small number of staff. What is your understanding of whether the time spent doing breakfast clubs will count as directed time?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Let us have a fairly quick answer. One other Member would like to ask a question as well.