Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Public Bill Committee, 14 January 2025.

Clause 1 - Sale of tobacco etc

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

I remind the Committee that with this we are considering the following:

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

Before we were rudely disturbed by the weekend—I hope that all Members had a good one—we were coming to the conclusion of the debate on this grouping. I thank all hon. Members for their valuable contributions to discussions last week; I will continue to respond to the outstanding points raised in the previous sitting.

On the Windsor framework, we are proud to say that the Bill is UK-wide and has been developed in partnership, in full, with the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and Northern Ireland Executive. This Government, and I hope this House, intend the smoke-free generation policy to apply to all four nations.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I have a quick question for the Minister about some of his answers last week about the clause. He said that tobacco products would include bongs, and was quite passionate about that. But clause 48, which is meant to be read in relation to clause 1, defines “tobacco product” as something that contains tobacco. I have seen bongs made of glass, ceramics and various other things, but I have never seen one that contains tobacco. It is certainly easy to make one that does not contain tobacco. I am therefore interested in why the Minister believes that the Bill equates bongs and tobacco products.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for that. We will come on to those issues in more detail when we eventually reach those clauses, which given the rate of progress so far may be in the early hours of tomorrow morning, if Members decide so. The only reason why such paraphernalia is on display and legally sold is to consume tobacco, but we will get more information on that for her when we get to clause 45, which covers that issue.

I was talking about the Windsor framework. We believe that this policy is in accordance with our international obligations. In terms of what products are in scope, the Bill captures all tobacco products, including shisha, cigars and heated tobacco. That is because all tobacco products are harmful. There is no safe level of tobacco consumption. For example, tobacco smoke from cigars leads to the same types of disease as the smoke from cigarettes. In England alone, around five times as many people smoke other tobacco products, such as cigars, as did a decade ago, and children are a part of that increase. Shisha, to which the hon. Member for Windsor referred, also causes the same diseases as cigarettes, including cancer, respiratory diseases and cardiovascular diseases. The volume of smoke produced in the average 45-minute shisha session is estimated to be the same as around 25 cigarettes’-worth of tar, 11 cigarettes’-worth of carbon monoxide and two cigarettes’-worth of nicotine.

Finally, there is clear evidence about the toxicity of heated tobacco. The aerosol generated by heated tobacco also contains carcinogens, and there will be some risk to the health of anyone using those products. The crucial point is that, unlike with vapes, there is no evidence that heated tobacco supports smoking cessation. We must ensure that the Bill is future-proofed to include new or novel products, such as heated tobacco, to protect the public from the harms of tobacco use.

Although cigarettes are the most used form of tobacco, we do not want to create loopholes in the Bill so that the tobacco industry can pivot and continue addicting people to tobacco. As I said previously, the issue is about saying, “The market share you’ve got now is it. We are stopping the conveyor belt.” As we know, if we block one road, the tobacco industry finds another route through. We are making sure that the Bill is as watertight and future-proof as possible so that the tobacco industry can no longer continue to trade with another product that harms and addicts future generations.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I want to look specifically at clause 1(3), which relates to identity documents. In the previous sitting, the Minister said that he would have powers to change the list of identity documents; I think he was referring to clause 46. But at the moment the definition of identity documents is very tight; only the six listed are permitted. My hon. Friend the shadow Minister mentioned veterans cards, and this would be an ample opportunity to include those, as was the intention, because the definition is very strict—people will be able to use only the listed documents.

A further question that has been raised is that the list rules out digital forms of identification, as those listed are physical. I want to understand how retailers can best enforce the measures in practice.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I do not want to go over the arguments that I have already put to the Committee in an earlier sitting, but there is an ability to use other forms of identification, as I set out. We will be working with the retail industry during the long lead-in time to get in place procedures that retailers are confident with. They will be able to ask for veterans cards, for example.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

rose—

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

Can the hon. Lady let me finish answering the point she put to me? In fact, I have now forgotten the point she put to me—[Laughter.]

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I was talking from a legal perspective. Clause 1(3) is about what “identity document” means, which obviously means that those listed are the six that people are allowed to use. I take the point that later the Minister could introduce regulations to allow for veterans cards, but legally a retailer’s defence would have to be that they were shown what appeared to be an identity document, which means:

“(a) a passport,

(b) a UK driving licence,

(c) a driving licence issued by any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man,

(d) a European Union photocard driving licence, or

(e) an identity card issued by the Proof of Age Standards Scheme”.

The clause is very specific. Whatever the intention, the retailer would not technically be able to use having been shown a veterans card as a defence. Hence I am asking whether we should consider the issue at this point, rather than relying on the regulations mentioned in clause 46.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I stand by what I have already said. The intention is to work with the retail industry during the long lead-in time to get the mechanisms in place that allow them to adequately enforce the measures in the Bill. We do not want to get this wrong. I politely say to the hon. Lady, however, that in the first instance it is highly unlikely that a veteran born before 1 January 2009 will seek to purchase cigarettes or other tobacco products and be queried about their age. I will take on board what has been said and, if what I said earlier is incorrect, we can perhaps come back to the issue.

I want to come back to tobacco products because the point is crucial. We want to ensure that the tobacco industry has that conveyor belt cut-off. It is therefore rational for all the products that I have mentioned to be included in the smoke-free generation legislation. That will prevent anyone from taking up use of the products in the first place.

As I stated in my opening speech, I am grateful to the hon. Member for Windsor for bringing the discussion before the Committee, but while I appreciate his intention, it is not something the Government support. In relation to the amendments, I say to the Committee that the Government do not believe it is appropriate to establish a more lenient penalty regime for the offences, or to introduce a mandatory age-verification policy.

The clause seeks to change the age of sale for tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland so that no one born on or after 1 January 2009 will legally be sold those products. The Bill will be the biggest public health intervention in a generation, breaking the cycle of addiction and disadvantage, and putting us on track towards a smoke-free UK. For those reasons, I commend the clause to the Committee.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

On a point of order, Mr Dowd. May I ask a procedural question? I heard some Members shout, “Aye”, and some Members shout, “No”. In the previous session we recorded what Members said, but we have not done so this time. Can I inquire as to what the reason for that is? Last time there was a vote that was then recorded for Hansard, but that has not happened this time.

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

That is because a Division was not called. I made the decision that the Ayes had it in this particular case and that the Noes did not. If a Member wished to challenge that at the time and call a Division, they were free to do so. They did not—

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

How would they do that?

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

They would just indicate that they wished for a Division—keep shouting, in effect.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

Further to that point of order, Mr Dowd. I would like the chance to put my No on record, so I would appreciate a Division.

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

Regrettably, we have moved on.

Clause 2 - Purchase of tobacco etc on behalf of others

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I beg to move amendment 58, in clause 2, page 2, line 23, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”.

See explanatory statement to Amendment 59.

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 59, in clause 2, page 2, line 23, at end insert—

“(4A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or provides for a discretionary caution.”.

This amendment, together with Amendments 56, 57, and 58, prevents penalties under sections 1 and 2 beyond level 3 for a first offence and provides for a discretionary caution.

Amendment 75, in clause 69, page 36, line 31, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 76.

Amendment 76, in clause 69, page 36, line 31, at end insert—

“(4A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this Article is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a conditional caution.”

This amendment, together with Amendments 73, 74, and 75, prevents penalties for a first offence under Sections 68 and 69 being beyond level 3 and provides for a cautionary warning.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Amendments 58 and 59 seek to amend clause 2. Will we get the chance to debate clause 2 later, Mr Dowd?

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

Yes.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Amendments 58 and 59 go back to the principle of proportionality. I know the Minister gave his views on that last week, so I will not go on at length. But there is a difference between the individual shop assistant who may make an intentional error, and a shop that continues to repeatedly and recklessly sell to children or people who are too young to buy an age-restricted product. That is the principle of the amendments—[Interruption.]

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

Order. Can we be clear? If Members want to speak in the debate they should bob, just like in the Chamber. If you wish to intervene, Ms Jarvis—I assume you do, but I do not know—you could bring your request for the intervention to the person who is speaking.

Liz Jarvis (Liberal Democrat, Eastleigh)

Mr Dowd, I was just going to ask the shadow Minister to speak up because I cannot hear her at all.

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

Okay. I am sure the shadow Minister will note that.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

My apologies. I was explaining the principle behind Opposition amendments 58 and 59, which are in my name. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Eastleigh was present on Thursday afternoon. Clause 2 refers to a “person” but does not specify who that person is, and there is as yet no guidance. The Minister said that the person could be the shopkeeper, the shop worker, the chief executive officer or whoever trading standards decided was the right person.

The fines to deter or punish illegal behaviour would necessarily need to be significantly larger for a large corporation than for a young chap of 19 working a few hours in the corner shop on a Saturday afternoon, for whom some fines would be quite punitive. The amendments allow for first offences to be treated leniently, in comparison with repeat offences, and their aim is to encourage the Government to think more carefully about guidance. When the previous Bill was introduced last Easter by the Conservative Government, with very similar wording in many cases, that Government produced guidance on how those charges would be applied. I am trying to encourage the Government to do the same thing. That is the purpose of the amendments.

I will endeavour to speak a bit louder. I do not know whether the hearing loop is working—

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

It is not.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I apologise again for not speaking loudly enough.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for bringing this discussion to the Committee. As we have already argued, the amendments would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of purchasing tobacco, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone under age—commonly known as proxy purchasing. In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, the amendments would create an exception to the maximum penalty that a person could face for committing that offence, if it was the person’s first offence. The amendments would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable, on summary conviction,

“to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale”,

which is £1,000, or liable instead to a discretionary caution in England and Wales or to a conditional caution in Northern Ireland. That is one level lower than the fine for which someone who committed that offence would be liable under the current legislation in England and Wales—level 4, which is £2,500. It is two levels lower than in Northern Ireland, where the fine would be at level 5, which is £5,000.

The amendments would have a similar effect on first-time offences as amendments that we have already discussed. If the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself as the rationale for asking the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendment remains the same as that for amendments that we have already covered.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Amendments 75 and 76 have the same principle behind them, so I will not repeat myself. They relate to clause 69; as hon. Members will recall, clause 69 amends Northern Ireland legislation that is similar to the legislation in clause 2. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

There is a technical hitch with the sound. We will suspend to sort it out.

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

We are considering amendment 59 to clause 2, which was debated with amendment 58 to clause 2. Dr Johnson, have you decided whether you want to press amendment 59 to a Division?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

On a point of order, Mr Dowd, I just wanted to understand. In this morning’s groupings, which were sent by the Clerks, it appeared that not only amendments 58, 59, 75 and 76, but amendments 19 to 21 and 34 to 37 were to be debated before clause 2 stand part. Why were those latter amendments not called?

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

As I indicated, the point had already been debated, so it was my decision that we would move on.

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to consider clause 69 stand part.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

These clauses make it an offence in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for someone over the age of 18 to buy or attempt to buy tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers for someone born on or after 1 January 2009. That is called proxy purchasing. Clause 2 replaces the current offence under the Children and Families Act 2014 of someone aged 18 or over buying or attempting to buy tobacco products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone who is under 18 in England and Wales.

Clause 69 amends the offence of proxy purchasing in Northern Ireland to align to the change in the age of sale. That applies to tobacco products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers.

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

The Minister said that this measure was to prevent people from buying cigarettes, cigarette papers or tobacco products for people under the age of 18. Obviously, when the Bill is first passed, that will be true, but with every progressive year, it will prevent buying for people aged 19, 20, 21 and 22. Why has the Minister not made a differential in law to ensure that, once the Bill is in place, there is a separate and more serious offence of buying tobacco products for someone under 18, however far in the future, and a separate offence of buying them for an adult who is ineligible to have them?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point. The Bill ensures that no one over the age of 18 is legally able to purchase tobacco products on behalf of someone under the legal age of sale, and there is a differential over time there. The age of 18 was chosen as it avoids criminalising children. This measure applies to all adults, and it does not allow for any ambiguity in law in the future. For example, it captures a situation in which someone over the age of 18, but under the legal age of sale for tobacco, attempts to buy products for a child. This action would be restricted, and the liability would not only be on the person selling the tobacco product, but also on the adult attempting to buy that product for the child.

These clauses align proxy purchasing offences with the new age of sale restriction for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They provide a defence if a person charged with this offence can prove they had no reason to suspect that the person was born on or after 1 January 2009 or they can prove that they had no reason to believe that the other person intended to use the cigarette papers for smoking, which is in line with existing defences. These clauses are essential to ensure that there are no loopholes in the age of sale legislation, and they build on what works in the current age of sale legislation. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Clause 2 makes it an offence for a person aged 18 or over to make a proxy purchase of tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers for a person born on or after 1 January 2009. It essentially stops an older person going in and buying those products for a younger person, which we are aware has been happening for many years with both tobacco and alcohol. If found guilty, the person committing the offence faces a level 4 fine on the standard scale, which hon. Members will recall is £2,500.

The clause replaces the current offence under section 91 of the Children and Families Act of someone aged over 18 buying or attempting to buy tobacco products or cigarette papers on behalf of someone aged under 18 in England and Wales. In many ways, that seems a sensible consequence to clause 1. If we want it to be illegal for people born after a set date to have tobacco, it makes sense to ensure that people cannot buy it for them.

However, I have some questions, particularly in relation to cigarette papers. I did not particularly talk about cigarette papers in our discussion of clause 1 because they are more rightly talked about in relation to clause 2, which treats cigarette papers differently, in so far as it makes them illegal unless a person can prove that they are using them for something else. I looked into what that something else might be. I naively thought that cigarette papers were essentially just bits of paper of a particular thinness that could be rolled up and stuck together with a little gum arabic once somebody had rolled whatever they wanted to roll inside them; in fact, that turns out not to be the case because of the law.

The papers contain ethylene-vinyl acetate, which makes them more fire-resistant. The sad situation is that every year people smoke in bed or in their armchair, fall asleep and cause themselves burns, and sometimes even cause death or house fires. The ethylene-vinyl acetate—a sort of plastic—added to cigarette papers helps them to self-extinguish and reduces the risk of fires; we know that some particularly dreadful fires, such as the Kings Cross fire, are believed to have been caused by loose cigarettes.

The cigarette papers are essentially made from plant fibre, such as bamboo flax and rice, but they can be flavoured and coloured. In the evidence given to the Committee last Tuesday, we heard about the tobacco industry’s aim of ensuring that younger people are enticed by colours and flavours. A quick look at Amazon—other sellers are, of course, available—reveals that people can buy cigarette papers in a whole range of bright colours. People can also buy cigarette papers with pictures of cherries, apricots, bubbles and all sorts of things on them. I thought it was interesting that that has not been covered in relation to cigarette papers. Why give an exemption allowing them to continue to be sold when the reality is that they will continue to be used for rolling either illegal tobacco or other forms of illegal drug?

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

Is my hon. Friend saying that cigarette papers have a specific definition in law and therefore that the papers she talks about, which have chemicals to make them fire-resistant and so on, will be banned, or is she saying that the clause will ban anything that could be used as a cigarette paper within the law? If she does not know the answer, perhaps the Minister can pick that up when he responds.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Clause 48, which we obviously have not come on to yet, gives the interpretation of part 1 and all the definitions. The definition of cigarette papers in the Bill includes

“anything…to be used for encasing tobacco products or herbal smoking products for the purpose of enabling them to be smoked”.

Different chemicals are put in, believe it or not, to make the ash whiter—people are concerned, when they have burnt their cigarette, with the colour of the ash that has fallen from it, which seems remarkable to me. Calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate and titanium oxide can be added to affect the colour of not just the paper, but the ash produced. Seignette salts—sodium potassium tartrate and sodium citrate—are also added to make it burn faster, so that people go through cigarettes slightly more quickly. Then there is the glue of the acacia gum.

As far as I can tell, it is impossible to find out what is in the cigarette papers that one might wish to purchase; if one looks online, it is very hard to work out what is in them. I have seen medical reports of people allergic to the ingredients having: cheilitis, or inflammation of the lips; circumoral—around the mouth—inflammation; and finger dermatitis. If one is selling a ham sandwich, it is important to include the ingredients so that people know what it is in it, but it seems that for cigarette papers that is not the case and I am not entirely sure why. It is also the case that some commercially available papers contain copper, chromium and vanadium. As they burn, the pigments can lead to very high levels of exposure. These are not inexpensive; Amazon sells a random choice of eight flavours for £9.99. The issues are worth considering. It has been proposed that individual cigarette papers have on them a message saying “Smoking is bad for you” or something along those lines, but does that not involve adding further chemicals to the paper and therefore further risk?

Clause 2(3) states:

“It is a defence for a person charged with an offence”

of proxy purchasing

“to prove that they had no reason to suspect that the other person intended to use the papers for smoking”,

To which the somewhat obvious question is, “What on earth else would one use cigarette papers for?” With some trepidation, I asked Mr Google. Initially, all I could find was that they are used for smoking joints of cannabis, which did not seem to me a particularly good reason—the smoking of another illegal substance—for the Government to exclude them. Then I found out that some people use them for woodwind instruments. They place them underneath the key and press the key down, which allows extraneous water to be soaked up. They then release the key and pull the paper out. That helps to dry the instrument, prolong its life and prevent damage. Clarinet players—I did learn the clarinet but I did not know this; maybe that is why I was not so good at it—or players of the oboe, bassoon, flute or saxophone can buy cigarettes papers for that purpose.

The question of whether the Government need to provide an exemption for cigarette papers hinges on whether there is an alternative for the public to use for their woodwind instruments—and there is, of course. It is obvious in some respects that the market would provide one were cigarette papers banned. Connoisseurs of such instruments tell me that cigarette papers are not ideal to use for this purpose because of the additional, potentially toxic chemicals they contain—one is potentially inhaling bits of the chemicals back in—and because it is not ideal to get traces of the gum on one’s instrument. It is possible buy Superslick Pad and Yamaha cleaning papers. As far as I can tell, they do not contain toxic chemicals, because nobody would be interested in whether the ash burnt from them was white or otherwise since no one is going to set fire to them. Is it therefore really necessary to have a specific exemption for the use of cigarette papers for instruments, when in practice that is unlikely to be what they will be used for? There is an alternative and the most likely use—I think the Minister will understand this—is that they will be used for smoking joints.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I agree with everything my hon. Friend says. My first question was, “Well, what else they would be using cigarette papers for?” The second question—which maybe the Minister can answer—is about the level of proof. This comes up not only in clause 2(3), but elsewhere in clause 2. I know that the Minister will say, in relation to clause 2(3), that this is in line with legislation as it currently stands, but if we are tightening up on the whole, perhaps this is an area that we should consider tightening up further?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Indeed, it does seem contradictory, if not counterintuitive. It also leaves us with a bizarre situation where, were someone to be a bassoon player, for example, and they wished to buy these products to use for the alternative purpose of drying their keys, then they would have to get someone else to buy them because they would not be able to buy them themselves. For a child born after 1 January 2009 and learning to play such an instrument, either the market will need to provide another opportunity to buy such a product, or the child will need someone else to buy the product for them. That does not make sense. The rolling age of sale that we discussed in clause 1 means that, over time, the number of individuals wanting to buy the product for their instruments but not allowed to, compared to the number of people allowed to, would inevitably diminish. We would have a larger group of people trying to find an ever smaller group of people to buy their cigarette papers for them for that purpose. To some extent, it would be more sensible to remove subsection (3) all together because it creates a loophole that will be used almost entirely for illegal uses of these papers. There is a market already providing a reasonably priced alternative for people to use for their instruments—which in practice are better for instruments in any case.

The final point is on the burden of proof. As a defence, someone purchasing the product on behalf of another has to prove they have no reason to suspect that the person was born on or after 1 January 2009. What does that really mean? Is that a reversal of the burden of proof? Is it saying a person has to prove their innocence rather than the state having to prove them guilty? In what circumstances would it apply? In what circumstances is it necessary for someone to buy cigarette papers, other than the oboe player or the saxophone player? I guess if someone in his or her 70s attends a corner shop but has forgotten their ID, they could ask somebody older to buy the papers for them; I guess that would be okay. They may find that they have come with a veterans card, thinking that they can use it because it is usable for voter ID, but that particular type of ID is not included; we have discussed widening the scope of those documents.

Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)

I understand that the term “cigarette paper” clearly indicates that the primary use for such an item is likely to be tobacco usage. However, it is not exclusive. As a model maker, I use cigarette papers in model making. I understand they are also used in art and in other activities. Although I am not suggesting that there are no alternative products to cigarette papers, it is not 100% exclusive. With respect, I think the clause refers to a person buying cigarette papers for another individual for a purpose other than smoking—if that can be proved. I accept what the hon. Lady is saying, but think she is stretching the point quite a lot.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I searched quite extensively for other uses of cigarette papers and had not come across that one; that is very interesting. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman thinks they need to have pictures on them—perhaps that helps with the art. I think there is still a difference in a cigarette paper that contains extra toxic chemicals to help it burn a particular colour, for example. I am not sure whether there is any particular art or model making application for having the cigarette paper with all the chemicals in, as opposed to any other type of paper that is produced for the purpose. Inevitably, the market would produce a non-cigarette paper for the purpose, which would reduce the amount of toxic chemicals that are used and therefore also the amount of toxic chemicals in our environment—given that, inevitably, once they finish being used, they get wasted.

The point stands that the papers themselves contain toxins that would not be required for any other uses, whether that be for models, art or music. Therefore, since such products are available on the market to buy separately from cigarette papers, though they may currently be slightly more expensive, the Minister may want to consider removing that exemption, because it inevitably creates a loophole for these products to be used for the smoking of illegal tobacco or a joint.

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

It is interesting—now that we have moved on to the alternative uses—to note that anyone who has ever had children knows that pipe cleaners are an essential part of any craft kit. Obviously, they can be used for cleaning a pipe, as well as making a spider or whatever else. The Minister has not sought to ban pipe cleaners in the same way. I wonder why he has picked out cigarette papers, which have alternative uses, but not pipe cleaners, which clearly have alternative uses as well.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

The hon. Gentleman is bringing back painful memories of trying to create things with pipe cleaners for my children, and trying to make them stand up straight when they simply are not quite that stiff—but some fun memories, too. Yes, I do see that they are used in art. That suggests another question. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but I presume that the Government have chosen to ban cigarette papers because they want to reduce the amount of people smoking illegal tobacco; it is also an opportunity to reduce the amount of availability of papers for smoking cannabis and other illegal products, but why have they not included filters?

For many years, the tobacco industry has implied that smoking through a filter is safer and many in the population believe that smoking through a filter is safer, but it is a single-use plastic—and I am sure the Minister is very worried about the environment and the use of single-use plastics. The previous Government banned quite a lot of single-use plastic items to reduce waste. The cigarette filter is the most littered item globally every year and it is a single-use plastic. It contains a cellulose acetate filter, which I am told is a plastic pollution. It also increases the risk of a particular form of lung cancer, because the tiny little itty bits of plastic are inhaled into the individual who is smoking. They also increase the way that people draw on a cigarette, which means they could take in more of the toxins when there is a filter than when there is not. Will the Minister discuss whether he plans to include filters on Report?

Let us look at international examples. In 2011, the United States said that all cigarette papers should have Food and Drug Administration approval for their ingredients. Is the Minister considering publishing the ingredients on the packet here in the UK, so that if they are to continue to be sold, people are aware of the toxins they contain? Further, where these products are being used for modelling or art purposes, perhaps such steps will start to reduce the number of toxins contained in them.

As part of clause 2 we are also going to discuss clause 69 stand part. Clause 69 substitutes for article 4A of the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978. That is, essentially, identical to clause 2, except for the fact that subsection (4) states someone guilty of an offence under the article is liable to a fine “not exceeding level 5”, whereas clause 2 says “not exceedingly level 4.” As the Minister is looking for consistency across the four countries of the United Kingdom, could he explain why he has chosen to have a lower level of fine for the proxy sales offence here than he has in Northern Ireland?

It should be noted that, although we have already discussed clause 50, that part of the Bill provides for legislation for proxy sales in Scotland, where the fine threshold is also set at level 5. I understand that the Minister is a fan of devolution, and wants devolved nations to be able to have different fines, so why has he chosen the fine level for this particular part of the country to be at level 4, which is lower than in Scotland and Northern Ireland? Additionally, section 5 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 says that it is illegal to buy, or attempt to buy, for oneself if under 18. Is it the Minister’s intention to amend that? That is my final question on clause 2.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I do not intend to go over the scope of the clause in great detail, because I think the principles largely flow form the principles of clause 1, but I will pick up on the cigarette paper point that my hon. Friend, the shadow Minister made, and talk about clause 2(3):

“It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section in respect of cigarette papers to prove that they had no reason to suspect that the other person intended to use the papers for smoking.”

I commend the shadow Minister’s researchers, because I can feel her thoroughness—I know a lot more about cigarette papers than I did an hour ago, and much more about cigarette papers than I thought there could possibly be to know, so she has answered some of my question.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am pleased that my hon. Friend has found today interesting. Does he also find it interesting that some of these papers that can currently be bought legally from major retailers in the United Kingdom are not just coloured and have designs on, but flavoured? That is clearly not necessary for someone using them for a model or artwork. They may make people smoke more, because they disguise the taste of the tobacco and make smoking more pleasant.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I believe that is the case, and it is something I did not know before today. My questions were along the lines of: is this not just paper, and, if so, why is it excluded in some sense? I was racking my brain for legitimate reasons, and, in her speech, the shadow Minister gave some legitimate reasons, whether that is the woodwind instruments, or the model making mentioned by the Member for Chatham and Aylesford. It seems to me that—even though I disagree with the principle of the Bill—those extra properties would not be necessary for those legitimate uses in this instance.

As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister said, the market should be able to make a difference. Clause 2(3) should be struck from the Bill, because it does not seem that there is a legitimate use for cigarette papers that would not be picked up in another way, shape or form if that subsection were removed. I understand from the guidance I received as a new Member on my first day here that I have to three days to table an amendment before discussion, but I would suggest the removal of subsection (3). Perhaps the Government will consider whether the provision should remain fully in the next iteration of the clause later in this process.

I also want to speak to the term “no reason to suspect”, because I am not clear where the burden of proof sits. If someone goes into a newsagent to order cigarette papers, the overwhelming likelihood is that they will use them to smoke cigarettes. I accept that other reasons exist, but is the shopkeeper supposed to ask? The Bill says “no reason to suspect”; I would expect shopkeepers to have every reason to suspect that people who buy cigarette papers smoke cigarettes. It seems a little woolly. What would the Minister expect the shopkeeper to do in those instances? Is he supposed to ask? If the person says, “I am using this for a woodwind instrument,” is that sufficient? If I were a person who wished to get around the law, I could pretty easily work out that that would get me around the clause.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I shall answer some of the points made, which were valid. To answer the shadow Minister, cigarette papers are within the scope of the existing legislation. They are included because burning them adds to the volume of smoke and because, with their bleaches and dyes, as she rightly set out, the range of toxicants in the smoke contributes to the additional risks to smokers.

On filters, I am sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s premise. Although cigarette filters have historically been marketed to make smoking safer, there is no evidence of that whatsoever. All tobacco products are harmful. However, as with all regulations, it is important that measures are considered fully and that the evidence base is there, with no unintended consequences. I do not want to give the tobacco industry the opportunity to greenwash and to say, “Not only are filters healthier for you, but they are healthier for the environment.” We absolutely do not want that. We have powers in part 5 of the Bill to restrict the flavours in cigarette papers, so the argument set out by the shadow Minister is covered. On single-use plastics, it is for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to legislate, and it already has powers that enable it to consult on single-use plastics in cigarette filters.

As we have heard, a number of relevant products—for example, pipe cleaners and cigarette papers—can be used for musical instruments, as well as for crafting, art, model making and a whole range of other uses. We do not want to restrict those uses; we want to make it more difficult for people to access such products for the provision of smoking. As we said when we discussed clause 1, we are not making the smoking of tobacco illegal; we are preventing the next generation from getting hooked. The restrictions therefore strike a proportionate balance. A current smoker will be able to smoke until the until the day they die. Although we will do everything we can to give them the opportunity to give up, they will be able to access the products legally, but the Bill will introduce restrictions on them.

We think we have got the balance right, but we will take away the arguments and consider them, because they are valid arguments about how a musician, or someone who wants to use them for crafting and modelling, will still able to access these products if they want to use them.

Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)

I have quick and pragmatic point about the different uses of cigarette papers. I am a mum and a saxophone player myself, and I suggest that other materials can be used in the place of cigarette papers. I appreciate the debate, but I do not think this is about a pragmatic use.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

That is precisely the point I was coming to. We will take the argument away because it is a reasonable argument, and we will perhaps consider returning to this issue on Report.

I know that the shadow Minister has every sympathy with the fact that cigarette papers are dangerous when used for the consumption of tobacco, which is what we want to bear down on. As I have said, there are powers in part 5 to restrict the flavours of cigarette papers, but we want to get the balance right so we will take the argument away and consider it.

Danny Chambers (Liberal Democrat, Winchester)

I am reticent to extend the discussion about cigarette papers; I was unaware it was possible to discuss something to such an extent. I am not legally trained, so I ask this for my own understanding as someone who is not a learned Member. If the exact same product was renamed and rebranded as model paper or musical instrument paper, would this law still apply to it?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

That is a good question. Of course, if it was to be used for the consumption of tobacco, it would come within the scope of the Bill. We have to be clear that many of these products have dual uses, as we have heard. I am as guilty as anybody of making pipe-cleaner characters for my children and grandchildren—grandchild, rather, because I have only one so far.

We want to make sure that those who want to continue smoking are able to do so, but that obvious restrictions and boundaries are put in place regarding the accessibility of these products, so that no child born after 1 January 2009 will ever legally be sold them.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank the Minister for engaging in this discussion, because although it is somewhat technical to discuss cigarette papers, it is important. The hon. Member for Worthing West made the key distinction, which is that it is about the ingredients that are in a product. It would be possible for the Minister to devise legislation that sought to ban cigarette papers, without preventing a market in a similar product that would be ineffective as a cigarette paper but useful for the average modeller.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

Perhaps we will return to that on Report. I have every sympathy with what the shadow Minister says. We do not want to prevent the legitimate use—indeed, a whole variety of uses—of these products, which is why we have the exemption in the Bill. If we are able to do what she suggests under the powers in the Bill, that would be great; if we can do only some of what she asks for in respect of flavours, that would go part of the way, and we will need to look at how we can strengthen that. If the shadow Minister can be a little patient, I think we can come back to this on Report.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

rose—

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

Order. I do not mind Members seeking clarification, but when the Minister has sat down we need to leave it at that.

Clause 3 - Tobacco vending machines

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 70 stand part.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

The clauses restate the ban on tobacco vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and extend it to include vending machines that sell cigarette papers. The prohibition came into force in 2011 in England and in 2012 in Wales and Northern Ireland. Under the amendments made by the Bill it will be an offence for a person with management or control of a premises to have a vending machine available for use from which tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarettes may be bought.

The prohibition was originally introduced because tobacco vending machines were largely unsupervised and allowed under-age access to tobacco. In 2010, 8% of 11 to 15-year-olds who regularly smoked said that vending machines were a usual source of cigarettes. The policy has successfully contributed to reducing smoking rates in young people and has been effective at enabling the age-of-sale restrictions to be implemented and enforced properly.

The existing legislation is consolidated in the Bill to replace the regulations that cover an automatic machine from which tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers may be bought. With all the restrictions that apply to such products covered in one Act, those who are affected by and who apply the legislation will find it easier to access them. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

As the Minister says, clause 3 outlaws the use of vending machines that sell tobacco or tobacco products, as well as herbal smoking products and cigarette papers. I note that there are no amendments to clause 3, presumably because it is somewhat settled and established law.

In the same way as vapes and other nicotine products, which we will come to later, vending machines make it much easier for people under the age of 18—or, under clause 1, those born after 1 January 2009—to buy age-restricted products that they are not legally allowed to purchase. They are self-service machines, so it is difficult to prove age and easy to get around if it is machine led. Historically, such machines have often been unsupervised by staff in a shop, thereby providing easy opportunities for younger people to buy from them.

It was coalition Government legislation—the Protection from Tobacco (Sales from Vending Machines) (England) Regulations 2010—that banned the sale of tobacco products from vending machines from 1 October 2011. That statutory instrument was made under section 3A of the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) Act 1991, which was inserted by section 22 of the Health Act 2009. That is a complex chain to follow, so having this clause where everything is in one place is much simpler. The clause also adds herbal smoking and cigarette paper vending machines to the legislation—on a personal level, I welcome that, for the reasons I have given already—and clarifies the penalty, which was more difficult to establish when looking at the previous trail of legislation.

However, the clause does change the terminology. Previously, it was illegal on the basis of sale “from an automatic machine”; the Bill talks about an “automatic machine from which” products “may be bought”. It seems that they are the same thing, but of course we heard repeatedly in evidence how the tobacco industry tries to get round these things.

I found a trail of people discussing online how to get round the vending machine legislation, which raised various questions. If I buy a product from a major retailer online, I can choose to get that delivered to my home, I can collect it from one of its stores, and I can also pick it up from our local Co-op, the local post office, or from a box with a keypad door, at the garage and in other locations. If one were to buy tobacco products, herbal smoking products, or cigarette papers using an online app, and collect them from a dispensing machine—an automatic machine that dispenses cigarettes—in a pub, would that be covered by this legislation, or is that a loophole that could be exploited? I would be interested in the Minister’s comments on that, because we have heard how inventive the industry is. Would it be possible for people to circumnavigate the Bill’s intent by creating a machine that does not sell the product but simply gives to a person the product they have already bought?

Clause 70 applies to Northern Ireland. It will insert into the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 the new article 4B, which is essentially the same as clause 3, so the same questions and comments apply. The only difference between the two clauses that I can see is that in Northern Ireland we have a level 5 offence, and in England and Wales we have a level 4 offence.

I wondered briefly why there was no clause for Scotland, but section 9 of the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 makes it illegal to have an automatic machine for the sale of tobacco products, regardless of whether the machine also sells other products, with a level 4 fine, so Members can be reassured that that is covered. I do not think the Minister answered this point in relation to the previous clause: clearly he chooses the fine levels for England and Wales in the Bill; why has he chosen to have the same penalty as Scotland but a lower penalty than that in Northern Ireland?

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Clause 3(1) says:

“A person commits an offence if the person has the management or control of premises on which a tobacco vending machine is available for use.”

My first point goes to the point my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made about the concept of that person, because that leads to some questions and confusion about where the liability sits. When it comes to the person who has management or control of the premises, we might expect there to be a landlord and a tenant, in which case perhaps the tenant has control legally under the terms of their lease. But if the landlord has a managing agent—the hint is in the name—could they be caught within the scope of the Bill if they have not done enough to prevent the machine from being on the property?

What about cases in which a landlord who is a licensor has a licensee? The concept is slightly different: it is not as official as a lease, but someone has the right to use the premises but not exclusive use or possession of the premises. We could potentially argue about who actually has the management and control of the property in that instance. It would be interesting to know whether in future landlords could be in trouble if they do not include in the lease a provision that bans the location and siting of a vending machine in the property. I do not think that would be where landlords currently stand, but that is perhaps worth considering. It seems pedantic but, knowing the way the legal system can go when people want to find defences, we do have to stress test the wording we use, so we need to examine the concept of a person having management and control.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

My hon. Friend is making a very important point that I had not fully considered: who is responsible where you have a larger corporation with a group of shops beneath? You have the board level, the regional managers, the local shop manager, the shift supervisor and then the shop worker, so who has the control? Is that something the Government have a fixed position on, or would each company individually need to prove who that was? If trading standards was prosecuting such an offence and chose the wrong individual, would the Government allow the corporation to get off scot-free?

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

My hon. Friend makes an incredibly valid point. It is something we are duty-bound to explore and test, to make sure we can avoid any problems with the roll-out and implementation of this.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

The nub of clause 3 is age verification. The reason the Minister and the Government do not want tobacco vending machines in operation is not that they do not want convenience for the customer, but rather that they want to make sure that people are of a suitable age under the law. Without somebody to check, that is a problem.

In my youth, I used to play snooker in what was the Minister’s constituency. There was a little area of the club, with a little gate, where the gambling machines were, and there was a tobacco vending machine in there. The only thing preventing us from going in there was honesty. Whereas it stopped me as a teenager, I do not suppose that it would have stopped adults in the same way—if you wanted to restrict adults from being a smoker in the future, that would not serve as a deterrent.

My question is about nicotine products, which I was hoping the Minister could come to, perhaps when he winds up. Nicotine products are defined separately from tobacco products in this legislation, so it would still be acceptable for things such as nicotine patches to be sold through vending machines. That does not sound unsensible, because it does not seem to me that people trying to evade this law would be attracted to nicotine products in the same way they might be to other tobacco cessation devices. Perhaps the Minister can comment on how he proposes to treat them when he winds up.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

Let me first say to the shadow Minister that we are aware of the new type of machines she mentioned, and we are concerned by their presence. The Department is looking to ensure that there are no loopholes in this legislation and that these machines, which may seek to bypass the age of sale restrictions, are not able to. Secondly, she has already answered the point about Scotland: the reason these measures do not appertain to Scotland is that Scotland already has legislation covering them.

To other Members, I say that we are overcomplicating this. As I said in opening, the clauses merely restate the existing ban on tobacco vending machines in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are consolidating the legislation to make it easier to understand the law but also to enforce it from one place—and that is it. This is the consolidation of existing powers that are working now.

The hon. Member for Windsor is absolutely right when he says that we want to ensure that age of sale is absolutely enabled to be enforced. As he said, when he was playing snooker in my old constituency, he would have been able to purchase tobacco products from a vending machine, and it was basically on the basis of trust that people were able to do that. That is no longer acceptable. We are bringing in the age restrictions, and we therefore need to make sure that they are adhered to.

I do not wish to stray on to nicotine products, because those are subject to a debate further on in the Bill. However, the hon. Gentleman is right to draw a distinction in the way he has. That is why the whole Bill treats nicotine products separately to, and very differently from, tobacco products, for reasons we will get to in due course.

Clause 4 - Sale of unpackaged cigarettes

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 51 and 71 stand part.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

These clauses restate that it is an offence for tobacco retailers to sell cigarettes that are not in the original packaging they were supplied in. Selling unpackaged cigarettes is currently an offence in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and these clauses re-enact that offence. The prohibition was originally introduced to reduce smoking among children, because there was evidence that children were being sold single cigarettes. The clauses ensure that the sale of loose cigarettes continues to be prohibited and that cigarettes are sold in the appropriate packaging. I therefore commend the clauses to the Committee.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

As the Minister says, clause 4 makes it against the law to sell cigarettes that are not in their original packaging, so that individual or small amounts of cigarettes cannot be sold separately. That is in part because cigarette packets now have standardised formats, warnings and information designed to alert the smoker to the health problems caused by the smoking habit, and selling cigarettes outside the packets means the smoker avoids that information.

I asked the Minister earlier about proposals for warning notices about smoking on the cigarette paper itself, but I did not hear his thoughts. The notices might ensure that, were individual sales to happen despite the law, the warning would still be received by the child or smoker, but there is also the risk of adding additional chemicals to the paper. Where does he think the benefit or balance of risk lies in that respect?

Everywhere else the Bill makes it an offence for a “person” to do something, so why does the clause mention a “tobacco retailer” rather than a “person”? If the Minister does not wish cigarettes to be sold individually, why would it be more of an offence for a proper tobacco retailer to sell them individually than it would be for an individual who is not a tobacco retailer? Why the change in wording? I do not understand. If someone is not a tobacco retailer, it would clearly be illegal, because they would have no licence. Why not have this additional offence for the most reckless people, so that they can be dealt with more severely?

As the Minister says, the minimum pack size of 20 was brought forward in 2017, because it was felt that packs of 10 were closer to the level of pocket money and were encouraging the uptake of cigarettes by children. When we come to vaping, we will discuss the pocket money nature of some of these products.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

Certainly in my experience, the only reason people sell unpackaged cigarettes is to make them cheaper for schoolchildren, so I find it strange that subsection (2) states that the fine is level 3 on the standard scale. If I understand what my hon. Friend said in the last sitting about the standard scale, level 3 is lower than the level 4 fine for sale. A sale could have been in error, but unpackaging cigarettes to sell to schoolchildren seems deliberately malicious, so I am surprised that it is not treated more severely. Perhaps my hon. Friend can comment on that.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

My hon. Friend is right that the offence of selling a product to a person born on or after 1 January 2009 is something someone could do unintentionally. They could genuinely believe the ID in front of them, or that the person looked so significantly older that it was not even necessary to ask them for ID, whereas selling cigarettes outside the packaging requires the deliberate act of removing them from the packet and selling them individually, in a way that is not normally done. I think my hon. Friend is right, and it is perhaps surprising to have a deliberate act at a lower fine level than a potentially unintentional one.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Why are we limiting this to cigarettes? Forgive me, I am not an expert—I have never bought herbal smoking products—but if we are applying the same rules and we just want an outright ban, perhaps we should apply it generally, in case there are rule changes, to the sale of not only unpackaged cigarettes but unpackaged herbal smoking products. That would add further to the emphasis on changing the term from “a tobacco retailer” to “a person”, as my hon. Friend suggested.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank my hon. Friend for her contribution, and she is right to talk about the quantity. If the principle behind this clause is to ensure that the quantity of sale is such that it restricts younger people from purchasing these products with their pocket money, what consideration has the Minister given to the quantities of herbal cigarettes, or herbal smoking products, and cigarette papers, so that they would be purchased in quantities not easily accessible to young people?

On the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor about the fine levels, the fines are level 3, which in this case is consistent across the four nations of the United Kingdom. Clause 51 amends the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010 to add proposed new section 4E, which essentially has the same effect—it is different wording, but it has the same essential effect of banning the sale of loose cigarettes. Clause 71 adds proposed new section 4C, which is essentially the same as clause 4, to the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 to have the same effect. Again, it has the same fine, so there is some consistency across the four nations of the country, but I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments on the points I have raised.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I thank the hon. Lady for raising these matters. Again, it is a case of perhaps overcomplicating what the clause does. As with clause 3, clause 4 merely restates that it is an offence for tobacco retailers to sell cigarettes that are not in the original packaging they were supplied in. We are not talking about proxy purchasing, or somebody breaking up a packet of cigarettes and selling them as an individual; we are talking here about retailers. This practice used to be quite common, but thankfully, because of the measures that are already in place, it is already an offence and we are reaffirming that offence in the Bill.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

The Minister says that it has been illegal for some time and that is an offence to sell loose cigarettes, and of course it has been. However, we heard in evidence from the Royal College of Physicians last week that the sale of loose cigarettes to youngsters was still a problem—it is an entry way into cigarettes. Does the Minister have any comment on whether reaffirming the offence with this legislation will actually help to enforce it to any greater degree?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

Yes, I believe it will. Of course, this measure is not being taken in isolation, and it is not just a stand-alone measure. This is part of a whole package of tobacco control measures that form this part of the Bill. Taken together, these things will ensure that we drive down even further smoking prevalence in young people. However, we do not want to undo the legislation as it stands; we need it to be part and parcel of the whole raft of measures we are bringing forward.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I am concerned about whether we are accidentally and inadvertently creating a loophole here. If we are not going to ban someone from breaking down a cigarette packet and selling it, that is the way they will go about doing it. We should be going for consistency and tightness on this. I appreciate that that is the law as it stands, which is why we have applied it, but have we had the foresight to ensure that we do not create a loophole? It seems quite possible that we have.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

If the hon. Lady is not talking about retailers breaking up packets, which is illegal, she is talking, effectively, about proxy purchasing—an adult buying tobacco products for children, splitting up the packet and selling those products on. It is already an offence for those children to get cigarettes—whether a full packet or part of a packet—even if they are not from retailers. It is proxy purchasing, and we have already covered that.

The shadow Minister raised the issue of messaging on individual cigarettes. I am not sure whether she was under the misapprehension that it is not covered in the Bill. The Bill restates the existing power to make regulations on the appearance of tobacco products, including cigarette sticks. Not only that, but it goes further by extending the power to other products, including cigarette papers. Although we do not plan to introduce dissuasive cigarettes at this time, as we believe we already have strong health warnings in the existing measures, we will continue to monitor the situation. We do leave an open door to it, and the powers are there. We will, however, mandate pack inserts into cigarette packs. We believe that that is proportionate at this time, while not closing the door to going further.

Lastly, the shadow Minister noted that, in some cases, fines are consistent across the United Kingdom, but that, in others, there are differences. I am afraid that that is the result of the devolution settlement. We have built into the Bill the ability for all four nations to walk together on making our country smoke-free, but the levels at which fines are levied are entirely a matter for the devolved Administrations. That is why there is sometimes an inconsistency in fine levels.

Clause 5 - Age of sale notice at point of sale: England

Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 6, 55 and 72 stand part.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

Clauses 5, 6 and 72 replace the requirement for age of sale notices in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to reflect the new age of sale for tobacco products. Clause 55 provides Scottish Ministers with the power to set requirements about warning statements, which are notices that reflect the new age of sale requirements there. Age of sale notices are required under current legislation and must state in a prominent position:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone under the age of 18.”

The Bill will replace that requirement with a requirement for notices to reflect the new age of sale, stating:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009.”

The notices must comply with any requirements set out in regulations on the size or appearance of those notices. This updated wording on age of sale notices will support tobacco retailers in implementing the new age of sale restrictions by helping to clarify and underline them for customers and staff. I therefore commend these clauses to the Committee.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Clauses 5, 6, 55 and 72 make provision for age of sale notices. Clause 5(1) makes it clear on which premises the notices must be displayed. In some respects, that is obvious, but the fact that the Bill makes clear that the notices must be on the same premises where the tobacco is being sold is perhaps a sign that the Minister has the measure of the tobacco industry: if that was not clearly stipulated, there would be temptation to display the notices in head office or somewhere else where no one could see them. The fact that it is thought necessary to state what is blindingly obvious—that the notice must be displayed in the right place—is somewhat sad.

Subsection (3) deals with positioning. The statement that the notice must be prominent and readily visible at each point of sale is relevant to shops that have more than one till at the counter. One sometimes goes to the counter of a large supermarket, or similar, and sees a whole row of tills. It is therefore important that the signs are visible from all the tills, not just the one closest to the tobacco.

What the notice must say is provided for in subsection (2):

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009”.

That is clear, simple and informative, which is good. However, it does not mention cigarette papers or herbal smoking products. Why has the Minister chosen not to include the other items included in the rolling age of sale and the Government’s smoke-free generation on the notice for clarity? That is important because we heard in evidence, and have all read in the news, of examples where people who work in our retail sector have been treated in an abusive—sometimes violent—fashion or people have been very rude to them.

If the purpose of the notice is to be clear on what the law is, providing clarity that it also includes herbal smoking products and cigarette papers would enable the public to be aware of the law and the retailer to point to the sign and say, “I can’t do this—look.” The message as currently drafted does not do that, and that could cause shopkeepers or shop assistants more difficulty. I notice that under subsection (4), any aspect of the notices, including the appearance and wording, can be amended, so that could be done at a later date if the Minister feels that the shopkeepers’ evidence is that herbal smoking products and cigarette papers are proving a challenge. Why has he chosen not to do that at the outset?

Subsection (7) talks about a defence of having taken reasonable steps. I have two questions on that. First, is “It fell down and I hadn’t noticed, your honour” an adequate defence? How does the Minister envisage the reasonable steps defence? What are the reasonable steps? If the Government choose under subsection (4) to change the appearance or wording—perhaps if they discover it is inadequate in some way—what steps will need to be taken to ensure that all retailers are aware of those changes, and within what timeframe will retailers be expected to react to those changes?

The impact assessment says that the cost of putting up a new sign is not prohibitively expensive for an individual business—it is about £4 per retailer—but it means that there is an overall cost to small and micro-retailers of around £124,000 in England, and £143,000 in the UK. That is a cost to business overall, even if a small one to individual businesses. The impact assessment also notes the cost of staff training and awareness. There are an estimated 42,582 convenience stores in England, each with a store manager who would have to disseminate that information to the estimated 299,957 members of staff. Of those stores, 71% would be considered small or microbusinesses.

The cost of amending those things means that the Opposition invite the Minister to get the notice right the first time so costs are not incurred twice. There is an estimated cost of around £2 million in total on training. Although the cost to any one small or microbusiness is likely to be small—around £70 on average—that cost combined with £4 for a sign, at a time when small businesses are being squeezed by other budgetary measures the Government have brought in, is another potential straw to break the camel’s back.

The fine is at a level 3, and the person who carries on a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail is the person who is liable. But what does it mean to be

“a person who carries on a business involving the sale of tobacco products by retail”.

Is it the director of the business? Is it the store manager who is on duty that day? Is it the overall store manager, or is it the licence holder?

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

My hon. Friend has previously sought to amend the Bill in various places to add the qualifier “save for the first offence”. It seems to me that, particularly in the first instance, this could be a genuine oversight and that it would be appropriate for a council officer or someone from trading standards to simply bring it to the attention of store management and ask them to rectify it over a period of time. Does she think this clause should be tweaked in such a way, on the same principle on which that she has sought to amend other clauses?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am going to disagree with my hon. Friend on that point. There will be licensing for tobacco products, and part of the due diligence of setting up to sell such products includes familiarising oneself with the legislation as it stands and thus with the regulations around signage, buying and putting up the appropriate signs, and providing the appropriate training. The challenge occurs if the Government seek to amend the notice, at which point they would need to ensure that they had given adequate notice and information to the company to ensure that it had the time, resources and information to put up the correct signs.

Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)

On signs, if we accept the premise that the law is changed—as we have done in clause 1—to include a rolling scale with the date being 1 January 2009, signs will have to be updated in any event to reflect that. The current signs about being 18 would have to be removed. On the definition on the signs—tobacco products versus relevant products—is it not clearer to the public, who are going to be the purchasers of the products, if it is tobacco products? It does not preclude extra signage, which exists in many stores, of what can and cannot be purchased. While I accept the premise of the idea of relevant products versus tobacco products, for the public it would be clearer if it were tobacco products.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

The hon. Gentleman is right, of course, that those selling tobacco products legally now will need to change their signs to have the date of 1 January 2009 on them, as opposed to the age of 18, because that will be the law: that clause has now passed, and I expect that it will continue its passage through the House and the other place, because it has broad support among the public and within Parliament.

Yes, signs will need to be changed, so I suspect that the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford is arguing in defence of my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor. But I do think that if a shop has a licensed product for sale, it is their responsibility to ensure that they comply with the terms of the law around the selling of those products, particularly in relation to something like relevant signage. It is difficult to get the particular day wrong by accident, in the way that we can potentially misinterpret someone’s age—we are not very good at working that out, if one looks at research of the population. It is difficult to get something wrong when it is in black and white what needs to be done. I urge the Minister to ensure that the guidance on what this new signage should look like is clear and explicit to ensure that that is the case.

Clause 55 applies to Scotland and amends the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010. In this case, subsection (5) of section 8 of that Act, on the display of warning statements, is substituted. The clause provides a power for Scottish Ministers to regulate the size or appearance of the statement used or any other aspect of the notice. However, subsection (2)(a) to clause 8 of the 2010 Act states that the notice must contain the following statement:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone under the age of 18”.

I note that Scottish Ministers have the power to change that statement as part of the clause, but when does it come into force? The legislation for the signage will need to come into force before 1 January 2027 in order to apply to people who were born on 1 January 2009. If it is not brought in in time, they would have a few days in which they could access cigarettes legally but unintentionally. If the Scottish legislation is to mirror this, it will need amending before that. The Scottish Government are more than capable of amending the legislation, but it will take parliamentary time, and there will be a cost to the parliamentary time and the drafting; I suppose they will have to do it by regulation.

Why not do it now? Why not amend it in this legislation? It has been amended in various other parts of Scottish legislation, so why has this not be amended for signage? Why are we leaving it to be done as a separate piece of work? It seems inefficient, and I am sure that the Chancellor has advised the Minister that she is looking for any form of productivity gain and financially sensible use of money. Is it the Minister’s intention that all notices across the devolved nations be essentially the same? If it is, why not do it straight away?

Clause 6 talks about the Welsh age of sale signage. This is going to presumably be a bigger sign or a smaller print, because it needs to display the message in both English and Welsh. As for the size of the sign, even if one looks at the Bill as printed, which is in relatively small font, it is quite a long message. Obviously the word volume for the Welsh is double that because of the requirement for the bilingual notice.

Therefore, when developing guidance on the size of the notice, how will the Minister balance the need for it to be easily readable by someone at a relevant distance—that is, when they are standing at the till—with the need for it to be practical? If the retailer—perhaps a small retailer—is required to produce signs for not just the age for tobacco products but, potentially, the age for alcohol or other products, and is required to display signs for each of those individual notices and regulations, how will the Minister ensure that it is actually possible to display all the different signs in all the different right fonts? Would he consider that, if a retailer is selling a range of products that are age restricted, there could be signs that cover more than one product to make this clear to the public while not taking up all of the potential advertising and—

Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)

I just wanted to clarify something with the hon. Lady, because she is talking about the size of the signs in Wales, under clause 6, I think. Clause 6(4) says:

“The notice must comply with any requirements set out in regulations made by the Welsh Ministers”.

I presume that that is the response that she is looking for: the Welsh Ministers will absolutely be able to decide on the size of the signs.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank the hon. Lady for that.

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

My hon. Friend is making, I think, an important point about whether Ministers, either in England or in the devolved Administrations, can put signs together in order to reduce the burden on a business of having multiple, potentially confusing signs. I understand the point about devolution, but most ordinary people will look for a single regulated sign for this. I wonder whether there is any discussion—even if the Minister cannot legally enforce it within the Bill—about working in tandem with the relevant Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so that there can be a standardised sign, so that it is abundantly clear, whether someone is in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland, that that is the sign, and that it is both clear to consumers and it is clear to businesses what they are supposed to be displaying.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. It is of course correct that we have devolution, and the hon. Member for Worthing West is of course right that Welsh Ministers—in the same way as Scottish Ministers, and, as I will come to, Northern Irish Ministers—have the capacity to deal with changes to the signs, but it will be easier to have clarity. I am merely suggesting that the Minister could discuss these details with his devolved counterparts and put such measures on the face of the Bill now, rather than not do so and then require, for example, as I said before, the Scottish Ministers to then introduce an SI for something that could be changed much more cheaply with drafting now. It would require much less time and energy from the civil service in Scotland—and spend less taxpayers’ money—to achieve that.

I am interested by the comment from my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon about joint signs. The point I was making was about the display space: if someone has to put a lot of different signs up—particularly given that the Minister has shown reluctance on the principle of a nicotine-free generation, which I suspect is where we will end up—and we need to do that at a later date, we will end up with yet another sign with yet another date on it. There comes a point at which the amount of display space available to retailers starts to become smaller, given the required font size.

Before I finish, I have one more quick point, which is just to note that clause 72 is the Northern Irish equivalent added to the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978, so it is the same as clause 5, with the same effect.

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

I remind the Committee that with this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 6, 55 and 72 stand part.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

At first sight, the clause can appear to follow on naturally from the rest of the Bill, and in some sense it does, but I think it is important. We heard from shopkeepers in the evidence session last week, from the British Retail Consortium, and in the representations to us made in writing that it can be difficult for younger shopkeepers to hold the line on this, and they might be at the wrong end of unacceptable verbal abuse. In my view, the Bill will increase that risk.

With younger people often manning retail stands, in the future we might have 18 or 19-year-olds having to refuse to sell tobacco products to people a decade or so older than them. That will be increasingly challenging, even compared with the existing situation. I have spoken about being opposed to the principle of the Bill and finding it somewhat unworkable, but putting that to one side, I think that if we are to proceed with it, we have a particular obligation to make things as easy as possible for shopkeepers. I am sure that everyone agrees.

The language used, or proposed to be used, in the age of sale notice in subsection (2) is quite legalistic, being presented as:

“It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009”.

That is a statement of fact. It mirrors what we see today, but it is very legal. I think it would benefit from being a bit more practical. For example—I think my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made this point—it is illegal to sell herbal smoking products, cigarette papers and not just cigarettes, but cigars. We might help our shopkeepers if we made the list a bit more practical, so that the shopkeeper could turn around to say, “Sorry, guvnor, but this is the law,” whereas with the Bill saying “tobacco products”, the verbal altercation might include, “These are not cigarettes, though.” Perhaps we should move away from legalistic language to help staff, especially younger members of staff. That is particularly necessary, given what seems to be a general coarsening in our society, I am afraid to say.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

The regulations will need to be enforced not just in a large supermarket, where the shop assistant has the benefit of a security guard and other—

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

Order. Will the hon. Lady speak through the Chair, please?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am sorry, Sir Mark. The regulations will need to be enforced whether one is a shop assistant in a small shop or in a large shop. In a large shop that sells tobacco, such as a large supermarket, one might have the benefit of a security guard, additional staff and many more people around. Alternatively, a 19-year-old might be trying to enforce the regulations on a Saturday evening in a rural shop many miles from the local police station, with no security guard or anyone else around.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

That is exactly the kind of situation I am thinking of. The language could be a bit more practical, less legal and it might aid that shopkeeper to point to an external source for validation.

I have two further points. One is a point of ignorance for me as a new Member, for which I apologise. I do not know what subsection (5) means when it says that

“Regulations under subsection (4) are subject to the negative resolution procedure.”

I hope someone can help me with that. Clause 6 is being taken together with clause 5, because clause 5 applies to England and clause 6 applies to Wales. To me, they appear to be exactly the same, apart from the age of sale notice described in clause 6(2) and the fact that clause 6 obviously also includes the Welsh version. I am going to take at face value that it says the same thing in Welsh, although I do not speak Welsh. It would be nice to clarify whether it is either/or whether it is both together. That is of interest.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I want to follow up on the points made on clause 5(3) and clause 6(3) in particular. Both specify that

“The notice must be displayed in a prominent position”.

I agree with many of the points my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor made about what that means in practice. In the information pack that we have been given, there is a quote from the Scottish Grocers’ Federation, which I want to read for the record. It explicitly states:

“In most convenience stores, space is at a premium and the suggested wording set out in UK Government proposals will require a significant surface area in order to be legible and accessible to all customers. The complexity of a moving ban will require very clear public messaging. Appropriate and mandatory signage is essential for good practice and the sale of age restricted items, SGF is concerned that multiple messages throughout the store relating to various product ranges and items could potentially create confusion and lead to challenging interactions between customers and staff.”

To protect our retailers, we must ensure that we enforce these regulations correctly. When making the regulations, the Secretary of State should take into account the voice of the retailers.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Mark. In responding to points that have been made, I want first to reiterate that these two clauses do not relate to enforcement; they concern the nature of the signage that will be required to be displayed. We can come to those other matters later in the Bill’s proceedings. I remind Opposition Members of what has been said in previous debates: we will use the very long lead-in time to engage fully with the retail sector to ensure that we get the delivery in shops right and to ensure that the Bill’s provisions can be implemented without any hiccups.

I also reiterate that we abhor any violence and abuse towards retail staff—or anybody else—and it is the intention of this Labour Government to introduce a new offence in this respect. Given the comments that have rightly been made in the course of this and earlier debates, I hope that it will command full support from all parts of the House.

The hon. Member for Windsor asked what is meant by “negative resolution procedure”. It is the procedure for the statutory instrument that will be have to be made to introduce these regulations. The fact that it is “negative” means purely that it will not require a parliamentary debate. It will be done through the usual secondary legislation processes.

There were questions about the nature of the clauses relating to different parts of the United Kingdom, and why we are approaching this with slightly different methods. I must say politely—particularly to the shadow Minister—that we have to respect the devolution settlement. These matters are entirely within the legislative competence of the devolved Administrations. Some things remain reserved for the UK Government, but for a lot of the measures in the Bill, the legislative competence rests with the devolved Administrations and their Parliaments.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I have at no point suggested that I do not respect the devolution that is in place. I made two remarks that reference devolution. One was about the different penalties that apply for the same offence in different parts of the United Kingdom. While I recognise that Ministers in other parts of the country have the competence to change the penalties to make them different from those that apply in England, it is clearly the Minister here who decides what the draft legislation should say with regards to the penalty in England. My questions focused on why he has chosen to make it different in England from other parts of the United Kingdom. Clearly, if the Northern Irish had chosen a higher penalty, it is up to him if he wishes to join them, or to have a lower penalty.

The other issue I have raised regarding devolution was in relation to clause 5. The Bill as drafted says that tobacco cannot be sold to people born on or after 1 January 2009, and much effort has gone into ensuring that that is replicated in Scottish legislation all the way through, even though the Scottish Parliament could do that itself if it wanted to. It makes sense to do it in one go here because that is more efficient in terms of both time and financial expenditure for civil servants across the country. So my question was why the Minister has chosen not to include in the Bill the change to the notice in clause 5, saying that tobacco cannot be sold to people under 18. Why not change that now?

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

This is a very long intervention.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am defending myself, as the Minister has accused me of something, Sir Mark.

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

I know, but please wind up.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am merely suggesting that changing the notice in clause 5 to

“born on or after 1 January 2009”

instead of “under 18” now would be more efficient, and help our Scottish colleagues, rather than implying they are not capable of doing so.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

Sir Mark, the hon. Lady protests too much here, because while it is true that she was questioning why, for example, the English fines could not be the rate of the Northern Irish fines, she was also pretty much calling for us to legislate for Scotland and Wales to bring consistency across the whole United Kingdom. Likewise with clause 5, she asks why we in this place are not legislating for Scotland in respect of the notices that will be displayed in Scotland. It is not our job to legislate where the Scottish Government do not want us to do so.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Will the Minister give way?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

No, I will answer the hon. Lady. My officials and I have been in contact throughout the production of this Bill with officials and Ministers in the devolved Administrations. I have had umpteen meetings personally with my counterparts in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, and there is an open offer. They are genuinely excited, Sir Mark, that we are able—as far as possible—to legislate with their consent to make smoke-free UK a reality, and we have sought to design this Bill in co-production with the devolved Administrations. None the less, there are some things that the devolved Administrations do not wish this Parliament to legislate on. For example, in respect of clause 5, on the notices, the Scottish Government have made it very clear that this is something they wish to do in their own way, in their own time, notwithstanding the fact that they have given us assurances that the measures will be in place to give enough time for retailers north of the border in Scotland to implement them. It is not for me to overrule the will of Scottish Ministers, who have the legislative competence to do this, if they do not wish this Parliament to do it on their behalf.

I hope that that answers future similar questions about the differences in different parts of the United Kingdom. We are legislating with the permission and consent of the three devolved Administration Governments, and we are not going to overstep. I have already said to my ministerial colleagues in other parts of the United Kingdom that if, during the course of the Bill through this House and the other place, they think, “That is not quite right and we need it to be amended,” or, “You know, it does make sense for Westminster to do it all in one go and do it for us,” we will respect that.

I have given Ministers my promise that if, as an afterthought, they want us to do some of this for them on their behalf during the Bill’s progress through its stages in both Houses, we will facilitate that. However, I am not going to overstep the powers given to me by the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Ministers to legislate on their behalf and to ensure that we have a United Kingdom-wide Bill that meets the separate and different needs, ambitions and expectations of our devolved settlement.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am grateful to the Minister for making clear that the reason that the text contained within the age of sale notice is not being amended at this stage is because Scottish Ministers have told him they would prefer to amend it themselves at a later date.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I am grateful for that, and if any offence was caused by my earlier comments, I apologise to the hon. Lady. We need to set out clearly that we are doing something quite ingenious, and that is only because of the goodwill and the desire of Ministers from different political backgrounds in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to get this legislation through the United Kingdom Parliament with the ability for them to then differ on consultations and other matters once the legislation is on the statute book. That would have been unheard of in years gone by, when relationships were not necessarily as good as they currently are between the devolved Administrations and the Westminster Government.

The same argument applies to clause 6. The sign will be a matter for Welsh Ministers. Although the framework of the sign is set down in the Bill for Wales, because that was how they wished us to approach it, any changes would be a matter for Welsh Ministers. The hon. Lady asked the hypothetical question whether, if we changed the notices again, there would be adequate consultation or time for retailers. We are not planning on making life difficult for retailers. We think that the wording here is the right wording. I do not take it to be legalistic and technical in the way that the hon. Member for Windsor seems to think it is. It is the same wording that applies now, with the exception that rather than talking about people “under the age of 18”, it will say

“anyone born on or before 1 January 2009”.

I think that is pretty clear.

The wording on the signage was tested during the public consultation in January, and more than 70% of respondents supported it. Many respondents noted that we need to mirror the existing wording to ensure accessibility. Other products are more niche and were not deemed to be necessary on the sign, but I think most people understand what a tobacco product is, and a cigar is certainly a tobacco product. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Clause 7 - Ban on manufacture of snus etc

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause 8 stand part.

Amendment 60, in clause 9, page 5, line 10, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 62.

Amendment 61, in clause 9, page 5, line 12, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 62.

Amendment 62, in clause 9, page 5, line 12, at end insert—

“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”

This amendment, together with Amendments 60 and 61, prevents penalties for a first offence under section 9 being a fine beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary caution.

Clause 9 stand part.

Clauses 56 and 57 stand part.

Amendment 70, in clause 58, page 29, line 19, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 72.

Amendment 71, in clause 58, page 29, line 21, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 72.

Amendment 72, in clause 58, page 29, line 21, at end insert—

“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under subsection (1) is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a recorded police warning.”

This amendment, together with Amendments 70 and 71, prevents penalties for a first offence under Section 58 (pertaining to restrictions on the possession of snus with an intent to supply in Scotland) being beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary recorded police warning.

Clause 58 stand part.

Clauses 73 and 74 stand part.

Amendment 77, in clause 75, page 39, line 19, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 79.

Amendment 78, in clause 75, page 39, line 21, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 79.

Amendment 79, in clause 75, page 39, line 21, at end insert—

“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this Article is liable to a to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or conditional caution.”

This amendment, together with Amendments 77 and 78, prevents penalties for a first offence under Section 75 (pertaining to restrictions on the possession with an intent to supply of snus in Northern Ireland) being beyond level 3 and provides for a conditional caution.

Clause 75 stand part.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I am grateful for the opportunity to open this debate. Amendments 60 to 62, 70 to 72 and 77 to 79 would create a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of possessing the relevant oral tobacco product, for example snus, with intent to supply it to another person in the course of business in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, by creating an exception to the maximum penalty that a person can face for committing that offence if it is their first offence.

The amendments would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable on summary conviction or indictment to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, which is £1,000, or provide instead for a discretionary caution in England and Wales, a recorded police warning in Scotland or a conditional caution in Northern Ireland. That is lower than the current maximum penalties, which are, on summary conviction, imprisonment for up to six months in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and 12 months in Scotland, a fine, or both; or, on conviction on indictment, imprisonment for up to two years, a fine, or both.

The amendments would remove the distinction between summary conviction and conviction on indictment for first-time offenders, meaning that the severity of the offence committed would not be taken into account in those cases as it would under current provisions. In creating a first-time offence, the amendments would have a similar effect to amendments that we have already discussed, so, if the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself, as my rationale for asking the shadow Minister to withdraw her amendment remains the same.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

This group of clauses and amendments all apply to snus, which we are trying to ban, so the first question is: what is snus? Snus is a tobacco product predominantly used in Sweden and, to an extent, in the USA. When the Health and Social Care Committee, which I was a member of in the last Parliament, visited Sweden at around the time the previous Tobacco and Vapes Bill was introduced, we saw shops with massive displays of different types, brands and flavours of snus, which came in small round pots similar to those that we see nicotine pouches in; they were mostly kept in the refrigerator.

Snus is produced using tobacco leaves, salt and alkalis such as sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate. The alkali is there to help the nicotine to be absorbed more easily into the mouth and therefore into the bloodstream of the person using the product. Producers also potentially add a flavouring. As we have seen in cigarette papers, flavourings are used to improve the palatability of tobacco products. The mixture of tobacco leaf, salt, alkalis and flavouring is ground up, steam-pasteurised to inhibit the growth of bacteria, and then supplied loose or in small pouches.

The loose form is a moist, powdery product, which I understand is rolled between one’s fingers to create a sort of cylinder shape known as a pinch. It is placed under the upper lip, where it is held for about 30 minutes while the nicotine is absorbed into the bloodstream. Its moist nature helps to facilitate the absorption of nicotine and makes the nicotine hit faster; it is absorbed more quickly than it would otherwise be.

The second way that snus can be supplied is in a small pouch resembling a very little teabag, which comes in two formats: original and white. The original version is a sachet of material that is kept moist and is brown in colour. Again, the moistness allows a quick release, but the tobacco product does not need rolling and pinching; it just needs putting into one’s mouth, and it stays in its little pouch. The white version is not in all cases white, but the genre is known as white snus. It has a milder taste and a slower release because the powder in the pouch is dry. The dryness means that one needs to get it moist in the mouth before it will dissolve across the membrane and give the nicotine hit, which means that the dry snus is a slower-release product than the original. The American snus is a lower moisture product, again provided in a variety of flavours to suit the customer.

Why did I and others not know what snus was? I am sure you are familiar with it, Sir Mark. This specific form of tobacco product has been banned in the UK for some time. It was banned by the Tobacco for Oral Use (Safety) Regulations 1992—I was still at school—and then EU tobacco products directive 2014/40 created a European-wide ban, which was incorporated into UK law by the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. The Committee might be interested to know that Sweden has a derogation specifically for snus under that EU regulation, so snus is still sold there, as I described.

Advocates of snus believe it is less harmful and causes less respiratory disease and less cancer than does an inhaled form of tobacco. They try to market it as an alternative to smoking that is less harmful. However, the evidence shows a risk of cancer, particularly of the cheek and gums. Perhaps that is not surprising, given where it is placed to be used. Oral squamous cell carcinoma, a form of cancer of the mouth, often occurs in the site at which snus is commonly placed. It has also been shown that snus causes increased blood pressure, particularly in females, and despite not being inhaled it can contribute to an increased rate of asthma.

Aside from all that, snus contains nicotine, which we know is addictive. Regardless of the form in which it is taken, it creates the addiction and cravings that rob people of the choice not to use the product, which the Minister spoke about so powerfully last week. It is important that we consider this carefully, because otherwise people will become addicted to snus as another form of nicotine.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

The shadow Minister is a doctor, so she is learned in this area, and she makes the case that snus is harmful in the same way as tobacco. What does she know of the relative harm? I am concerned that, in taking quite a studs-up and puritanical approach, we are taking away things that might not be as bad as cigarettes that could allow people to effectively tier down. Does she have any thoughts on that?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

That was the second question I considered when preparing for the debate on this clause. My first question was: what is snus? My second was: if it is a tobacco product, why is it treated differently? We have talked about all sorts of different tobacco products—cigarettes, cigars, snuff—yet this one has particularly robust regulation and a robust legal framework. The only reason I could find was that it is new, trendy and coming forward very quickly, and there were concerns that it would quickly take over the children’s market in the same way as vaping. That is the only suggestion I was able to find. I am sure the Minister will be able to help us to understand why snus is treated so robustly, although I am not sad to see that.

Clause 7 makes it an offence to manufacture oral tobacco products. Oral tobacco products are defined quite particularly as those that are for oral use but not intended to be inhaled or chewed, so they do not include chewing tobacco, which would be included under clause 1. They also have to be in either powder or particle form—as I said, they are in the form of ground tobacco. Currently, the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016 define “tobacco for oral use” similarly, as tobacco “intended for oral use”, not to be inhaled or chewed, and

“in powder or particulate form or any combination”,

whether presented in a

“sachet portion or a porous sachet, or in any other way”.

Regulation 17 provides for a UK-wide ban on the production and sale of snus. Schedule 6 to the Bill, which we will come to, will repeal that measure and replace it with clause 7.

I want to ask the Minister why it is an offence to manufacture oral tobacco products in the UK, and not an offence to manufacture other tobacco products. He has talked about the need for a smoke-free generation and his worries that smoking tobacco harms individuals’ health, wellbeing and ability to choose, but he has not chosen to ban the production of other tobacco products. I found that the last time an English-produced cigarette rolled off the production line was at the Horizon Imperial Tobacco factory in Nottingham in May 2016, and the last UK-made cigarette was produced at Japan Tobacco International’s plant in County Antrim in October 2017. He may feel that such a ban is unnecessary because we are not producing any tobacco products, but I am interested in his thoughts on the matter.

The penalty here is the most severe so far. We have had some debate about different clauses containing fines at levels 3, 4 and 5 on the standard scale, but this clause contains a much more severe penalty for a product that may or may not be less harmful than cigarettes, although it has not been suggested that it is much more harmful. The fine for breaching clause 7 on the ban on manufacture of snus is, on summary conviction, imprisonment of six months, a fine or both. Six months is based on the current upper limit in a magistrates court, but the Lord Chancellor announced in October last year a plan to increase the maximum penalty for a magistrates court to 12 months’ imprisonment, which would presumably apply to this Bill. I will be grateful if the Minister could clarify whether that is the case and whether there have been any convictions under the existing legislation. The penalty for conviction on indictment would be imprisonment not exceeding two years, a fine or both—again, quite severe penalties when compared with other aspects of the Bill and other tobacco products. I am interested to understand why.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am happy to give way—and to be promoted.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I apologise to my hon. Friend. I might have misunderstood, so may I clarify the intended purpose here? If snus is illegal under earlier regulations, what is this further provision? Is it to ensure that nicotine pouches are also caught? The UK has already banned the sale of all oral tobacco products, including snus, under the Tobacco for Oral Use (Safety) Regulations 1992, which implemented European Union directive 92/41. I am hoping for some clarity about that, but perhaps it will come from the Minister.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

My understanding—I am sure the Minister will leap to his feet to correct me if I am wrong—is that the Bill does not apply to nicotine pouches per se, because nicotine pouches do not contain tobacco. As I understand it, the brands we see in our local supermarket in similar round pots contain nicotine, and they are put in the mouth and absorbed in a similar way, but they are not tobacco products. As I read the Bill, clause 7 will not apply to them, and obviously they are not currently illegal, because they are widely sold.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I can easily clarify that point. The clause applies to relevant oral tobacco products, which are defined as tobacco products intended for oral use, not intended to be inhaled or chewed, and that consist wholly or partially of tobacco. It does not apply to tobacco-free nicotine pouches, which are sometimes informally referred to as snus; the Bill classes nicotine pouches as nicotine products.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank the Minister for clarifying that so comprehensively.

Clause 8 deals with the sale of snus. Clause 7 having made it an offence to manufacture snus, clause 8 bans the sale of snus, which it defines, in the same way as described by the Minister, as a “relevant oral tobacco product”. In wording that is slightly different from that in other clauses, clause 8 also describes the offence as not only to sell, but to

“offer or expose…for sale”.

I had to look up what that meant. To help the Committee, apparently, to offer or expose something for sale means to expose it to attract an offer of purchase from the public. Something is put in the shop window—in the same way as the bongs the Minister described in a shop window the other day—to be visible to a customer and the customer may then choose to make an offer for the purchase of the product, and the product is thereby exposed for sale. In essence, this provision will make putting these products in a shop window an offence.

I am interested to understand why the wording in clause 8 is different from that for all the other tobacco and nicotine products in the Bill, where that wording is not used. If the Minister could explain that, I will be grateful. Again, the defence offered by clause 8 is “all reasonable steps”, but I am not sure what such steps would be, so I will be grateful for clarification on that, too, please.

The penalties for disobeying clause 8 are quite severe. The penalty on summary conviction is

“imprisonment for a term not exceeding the general limit”

in a magistrates court, which is six months, potentially rising to 12 months based on what the Lord Chancellor has said over the past few months, or a fine—of how much, the Bill does not state, so perhaps the Minister could help with that—or both. On conviction on indictment, the penalty is

“imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, or a fine, or both.”

That means that we have a contradiction within the Bill. For virtually any other tobacco or nicotine products that may not be sold, but are sold by an offender, the offender is liable for a fine at level 3, 4 or 5, but clause 8—the sale of snus, as distinct from all other tobacco products—creates an offence that carries a penalty of significant imprisonment. I am not saying that that should not be the case, but I am interested to understand the rationale for the difference, because, notwithstanding any devolution differences, the decision on what to do in England and Wales is clearly for this Government and this Minister.

Clause 9 concerns possession with intent to supply in the course of business of a “relevant oral tobacco product”, as has been defined in clauses 7 and 8. I am interested in what is meant by “the course of business”. If one looks at section 4 of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, where possession with intent to supply is most readily thought of, it is the intent to supply it to another person. However, does “the course of business” imply that money must change hands? If one had the intent to supply to another without being paid, would that not be in “the course of business” and therefore be legal? Also, does the word “business” itself imply a properly regulated business? It could not be a properly regulated business in so far as it would be an illegal sale. Does the Minister therefore make a distinction between the product being sold from a business premises as opposed to being bought down the pub from an acquaintance?

Amendments 60, 61 and 62 to clause 9 basically look once again at the principle of proportionality. If, for example, we were to prosecute someone for the sale of cigarettes to a 19-year-old born on 1 January 2009, and it was that person’s first offence, we would give them a fine—so why would we wish to consider imprisoning somebody at the first offence for selling snus? The crime would appear to be somewhat similar but the penalty is very different. I do not intend to push the amendments to a vote, although other hon. Members may wish to, but they are designed to provoke debate on the proportionality of different offences, and the inconsistency between the penalties for different offences that may appear to be very similar. Amendments 60 and 61 insert the phrase

“save if it is a first offence”

and amendment 62 says:

“A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence…is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”

I will be interested in the Minister’s comments.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I am sorry if this is my ignorance as a new legislator, but clauses 7, 8 and 9 applied to England and Wales. However, clauses 56, 57 and 58 apply the same measures to Scotland, and then we have the same for Northern Ireland. In previous clauses, we have also seen that replicated for Wales. Does that mean that clauses 7, 8 and 9 apply to both England and Wales, and how come that devolution is treated differently? Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham knows the answer to that, or maybe the Minister could clarify.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank my hon. Friend for his point. I believe that the Bill specifies somewhere which clauses apply under which jurisdictions, but I cannot remember exactly which page that is on. I am sure the Minister in his summing up will be able to identify where my hon. Friend can look to review that, but some of the clauses will apply to different jurisdictions. Some will apply to the whole of the United Kingdom and others will apply to England and Wales, or England alone, depending on various different factors. My hon. Friend will be able to look at the relevant part of the Bill to find that out. My understanding is that clauses 7, 8 and 9 will apply in England and Wales, and I would be grateful if the Minister clarified that point in his summing up.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor has identified, clauses 56, 57 and 58 apply to Scotland; they essentially replicate clauses 7, 8 and 9. Clause 56 prevents the manufacture of snus, clause 57 prevents the sale of snus and clause 58 prevents the possession with intent to supply of snus. Amendments 70, 71 and 72 to clause 58 replicate amendments 60, 61 and 62 and say that there should be proportionality in relation to penalties.

I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that, in Scotland, the penalty is currently set at 12 months, rather than being tied to the highest penalty in a magistrates court. With reference to the Lord Chancellor’s remarks in October to change the upper limit for a penalty in a magistrates court from six to 12 months, I am interested to understand why the Minister has chosen differently from his devolved counterparts, who have chosen a fixed amount of time for their penalty—six months in Northern Ireland and 12 months in Scotland—while he has chosen to tie it to a moveable feast: the upper limit of the magistrates court, which can go up or down. Has he considered future changes, which may be relevant to how severe he feels the penalties should or should not be?

Clause 73 provides for the banning of the manufacture of snus in Northern Ireland, clause 74 prevents the sale of snus in Northern Ireland, and clause 75 prevents possession with the intent to supply of snus in Northern Ireland. The penalty there is limited to six months. There is some consistency across the United Kingdom in saying that the penalties for selling, manufacturing or supplying snus should be more severe than those for supplying other tobacco products, although I am interested to understand why, but there is no consistency on the penalties. The Minister essentially had a choice between six months in Northern Ireland and 12 months in Scotland, and he chose the moving magistrates court upper limit. Why?

Finally, amendments 77, 78 and 79 invite the Minister to consider the proportionality of the penalties, particularly in relation to people committing a first offence. Is it proportionate to send someone to prison for a first offence of selling snus but only to fine them £1,000 or so for selling cigarettes?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her comments. Although I appreciate her intention to establish greater leniency for first-time offenders, these amendments are not appropriate. Tobacco and vape offences must be taken seriously. We do not want to weaken the penalty regime for these offences, including offences relating to snus, by creating exceptions for first-time offenders or anyone who has committed these offences. We do not want to remove the ability of the court to issue a higher-level penalty, where that is viewed as proportionate for a particular case, for anyone convicted of these offences.

I turn to the shadow Minister’s comments on clauses 7 to 9, 56 to 58 and 73 to 75. Those clauses make it an offence to manufacture, sell or offer for sale, or possess with the intent to supply, a relevant oral tobacco product, such as snus, in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. A relevant oral tobacco product is something intended for oral use—the clue is in the name: it is not intended to be inhaled or chewed and it consists wholly or partly of tobacco in powder or particulate form. That includes snus.

As the shadow Minister rightly pointed out, snus has been banned in the UK and the EU since 1992. Snus was banned as it was a novel tobacco product that is harmful to health. Snus contains harmful compounds that have been demonstrated to cause cancer, including cancers of the mouth. The manufacture of snus with a view to the product being supplied for consumption in the United Kingdom or through the travel retail sector is currently banned, as she rightly pointed out, under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016. These clauses re-enact that ban on manufacture but, unlike the 2016 regulations, do not limit it to supplying the UK or travel retail sector. In effect, that extends the ban to include manufacturing snus for export. That simplifies enforcement and reduces the possibility of such harmful products being available within the United Kingdom.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

How many manufacturers in the UK are producing snus for export?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I will have to get back to the hon. Lady on that point. We will write to Committee members to update them, because I do not have that information to hand or in my mind.

As I was saying, the supply of snus for consumption in any part of the United Kingdom or through the travel retail sector is also already banned under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, and these clauses recast the existing ban as a general ban on sale. The ban on possession of snus for intent to supply support the ban on sale, while preserving the current position under the Tobacco and Related Products Regulations 2016, which allows possession of snus for personal use.

Under these clauses, it will not be an offence to possess snus for personal use or for personal gifting to friends and family; this is not about criminalising individuals who possess snus for personal use. These clauses maintain and simplify the ban, in place since 1992, on the sale of a harmful tobacco product. The clauses also make the prohibition on snus more comprehensive and make the legislation clearer and more accessible. We have no intention of allowing a banned and harmful product into the United Kingdom market. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

The hon. Lady asks about “all reasonable steps”. As we have already discussed, it will be for the discretion of trading standards as to whether all reasonable steps have been taken. As we know, they take a proportionate approach to these matters, and we know that their current procedures work. There is no expectation that they will not work with the legislation before us.

What would prevent a retailer from just giving some of these products to a customer, rather than selling them, to get round the law? Well, there is “brand promotion”, which includes free giveaways anyway. That covers all tobacco products—so it covers that situation.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank the Minister for going through the questions thoroughly. I did not want to risk his getting to the end of his speech without answering the question of why snus is treated differently from other forms of tobacco. Is it merely a historical artefact?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

The hon. Lady need not worry so much, because I have notes to clarify her points. Many people ask why we are banning snus but only gradually raising the age of sale for cigarettes, given that snus is less harmful than cigarettes. Consumption of any tobacco product is harmful. We heard that—[Interruption.]. We heard that very loudly and clearly from somebody upstairs, but also from the four chief medical officers. They made it very clear that there is no safe level of tobacco consumption and that tobacco is uniquely harmful as a product in whatever form it is consumed.

It is this Government’s policy to support people to quit all forms of tobacco. Snus has been banned in the UK and across the EU since 1992. It was banned because it was a harmful novel tobacco product at the time, and it still is. It was agreed to prevent this new harmful product from ever coming on to the market. Why on earth would we now decide to give the tobacco industry a get out of jail free card and allow a product that has never ever been allowed on the market in the United Kingdom to enter the marketplace, irrespective of the age of sale?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

To be clear, I am not suggesting that it should be on the market, as the Minister well knows, because I support both helping people using tobacco to quit and preventing people from starting to use tobacco. I merely want to understand why there is a difference in treatment. On the basis of what the Minister has said, why not make the penalties for cigarette sales the same as the robust penalties that already exist for snus sales? It is his choice.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

The hon. Lady teases me, Sir Mark, and I get her desire for scrutiny of the issue of fines and of the measures we will take to enforce these laws in England, where they stand at different rates to other parts of the United Kingdom. There are different rates for different products as well. If somebody wants consistency across the four nations and consistency of approach across all products, I get that—that is laudable—but we believe that the measures in the Bill are proportionate and workable. If they turn out not to be—if they turn out to be an incentive rather than a disincentive—Ministers can come back and can look at these things again.

On territorial extent, the earlier clauses refer to England and Wales and the later clauses to Scotland and Northern Ireland. As the shadow Minister pointed out to the hon. Member for Windsor, a full breakdown of the territorial extent of clauses can be found in the annexe of the explanatory notes to the Bill, which hopefully will then be able to clarify in his mind which bits are UK legislation, which bits are devolved legislation and which bits have territorial extent across England, England and Wales, Great Britain or the United Kingdom.

Clause 10 - Sale of vaping or nicotine products to under 18s

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I beg to move amendment 63, in clause 10, page 5, line 33, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 66.

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 64, in clause 10, page 5, line 33, at end insert—

“(4A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 66.

Clause stand part.

Clause 59 stand part.

Amendment 80, in clause 76, page 40, line 9, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 83.

Amendment 81, in clause 76, page 40, line 9, at end insert—

“(4A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this Article is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or conditional caution.”

See explanatory statement to Amendment 83.

Clause 76 stand part.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

The amendments in this group are similar to previous amendments and are designed to provoke debate on the proportionality of the offences. Like other such Opposition amendments, amendment 63 would amend clause 10 to add

“, save if it is a first offence”.

Amendment 64 would amend clause 10 by adding that if someone has admitted guilt of a first offence under the clause they are liable for a fine at level 3 of the standard scale of caution. We are making a suggestion that the Minister could consider more lenience for someone who commits such an offence for the first time as opposed to someone who recklessly and repeatedly flouts this important legislation.

Did you want me to discuss the whole of clause 10 at this point, Sir Mark?

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

The debate includes clause 10 stand part.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Clauses 1 to 9 of the Bill have predominantly dealt with tobacco products of varying kinds. Clause 10 moves on to the sale of vaping or nicotine products to under-18s, distinct from the measures on a smoke-free generation and the date of birth of 1 January 2009.

The first question is what are the vaping products of which we speak. Clause 48 deals with the interpretation and definitions within part 1. It defines a vape as

“a device which…vaporises substances, other than tobacco, for the purpose of inhalation through a mouthpiece”.

That applies whether it vaporises tobacco as well or not. It excludes medical devices, although we heard in evidence that no vapes are medically approved in the United Kingdom, and medicinal products that vaporise, including any aerosolisers. The clause also refers to an item that is intended to form part of a device, including anything to be attached to a vaping device with a view to imparting flavour. As the Government have already brought forward legislation to ban single-use vapes, it is important that individual components of reusable vapes are covered by the Bill.

A “vaping product” itself means a vape or vaping substance. A vaping substance means a substance other than tobacco that is intended to be vaporised by a vape. Vapes themselves can either contain nicotine or not and work essentially by heating up a liquid that creates a vapour to be inhaled. A nicotine vape typically contains nicotine, propylene glycol or vegetable glycerin, and flavourings, which we will come to discuss because of their importance in enticing children.

Nicotine products are also relevant to clause 10, on the sale of vaping or nicotine products. Clause 49 defines nicotine products as

“a device which is intended to enable nicotine to be delivered into the human body”,

part of a device that does that, or anything that contains nicotine. That is important because we have heard again and again how the industry will continually evolve to entrap people in a lifetime of nicotine addiction. This wide definition of anything containing nicotine helps to future-proof this legislation such that it does not have to be revisited again and again as the industry continues to evolve.

The main type of nicotine product currently on the market, other than vapes, is oral nicotine pouches from brands such as Velo and White Fox. These are a tobacco-free product placed between the lip and the gum for oral nicotine absorption. They are similar to Swedish snus, which we have discussed; they are pre-portioned pouches and they are produced in a variety of flavours. We have seen flavours such as lemonade razz and others that are designed with childlike descriptions, perhaps to influence children to use them. Certainly, when I talk to teachers, they say that they starting to see them used in the classroom. They look to parents very much like a small square of chewing gum, and some parents may not be aware of the hazards that these items pose.

The nicotine content within oral nicotine pouches can vary and is typically between 4 mg and 18 mg of oral nicotine per pouch. That is important; I have seen amendments suggesting that they should be limited 20 mg, but 20 mg is a lot. When we look at the amount of nicotine in a cigarette, we have to look not at the amount contained within it in its packet, but at how much is absorbed by the end user, the customer, when actually smoking it. The amount absorbed by the end user is much smaller than the amount in the cigarette. When brands imply that the amount within a pouch is similar to what is in a cigarette, they are talking about the amount within the cigarette itself, not how much the person smoking it will absorb from the cigarette.

The difference is quite marked: people may only take 1.2 mg from a cigarette when they smoke it in the usual way, so 18 mg in an oral nicotine pouch is an awful lot of nicotine. Some online retailers will sell products containing up to 150 mg of nicotine per pouch, with examples of flavours including black cherry, citrus and coffee. The release of nicotine from oral pouches is similar to, or faster than, from smokeless tobacco products and, given the Minister’s robust approach to snus and novel products designed to create addiction, I hope he will take a strong approach to these too.

Oral nicotine pouches sit alongside other novel nicotine products such as nicotine toothpicks and nicotine toothpaste that have emerged on the market. They are regulated under the General Product Safety Regulations 2005. Under those regulations, there is no age of sale requirement for retailers to impose. As such, individuals aged under 18 can legally purchase nicotine pouches, as opposed to tobacco and vaping products, which require all purchasers to be aged over 18. Clause 10 will help to deal with that.

Furthermore, oral nicotine pouches are not regulated by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, since no medical claims are made, and they are not an alternative to an authorised medicinal nicotine product—something like Nicorette gum, for example. I should note that some supermarkets have a voluntary age of sale; some supermarkets and larger retailers, or even smaller retailers, will voluntarily not sell these products to under-18s, but there currently is no legal requirement for them not to do it.

There is also no restriction on the amount of nicotine contained in an oral nicotine pouch under the current legislation, as such new products sold within the UK can contain levels of nicotine exceeding other nicotine or tobacco-based products such as cigarettes. We have heard about the addictive nature of nicotine; the higher amount transmitted so rapidly into the bloodstream is clearly stronger in its effect and therefore undesirable because it will remove people’s choice not to have those products.

What about the health impact? The health impact of nicotine is another reason why we need to invoke clause 10. Some people say, “If you take the nicotine out of the tobacco, maybe that will be safer.” However, it is safer but not safe. According to the impact assessment produced by the Government in response to the Bill, a recent scoping review found that oral nicotine pouches claimed to be less toxic than cigarettes and that they deliver comparable amounts of nicotine. However, the data for that review was mainly available from industry-funded studies. Despite potentially lower toxicity than cigarettes, oral nicotine pouches still contain nicotine, and that still has harmful effects.

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

My hon. Friend is right to highlight all the problems of vapes, especially for children, and the lack of evidence out there, other than that produced by the industry itself. Is she aware of any independent studies, either in the UK or abroad, that have done any substantive investigation into how harmful vapes are, either for adults or for children?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Last Tuesday, we heard in evidence from various medical sources, and both the Select Committee and our processor Bill Committee heard in evidence that nicotine is, of itself, harmful, and that the chemicals added to vapes are harmful. In some cases, they are extremely harmful. I will talk more about vaping chemicals later. Indeed, sometimes the products do not contain what they are expected to contain, and that can be worse still. I will return to that subject later, too.

Nicotine is highly addictive and can permanently affect the development of the adolescent brain. We have heard how the industry targets young people, and that is because the adolescent brain is particularly vulnerable. Nicotine can permanently affect its development. Nicotine also fulfils all the criteria for drug dependence. Giving it up is very difficult, and withdrawal symptoms can include cravings, irritability, anxiety, trouble concentrating, headaches and other mental symptoms. Symptoms associated with nicotine and dependence are often not recognised by novice smokers, particularly if they are young.

Danny Chambers (Liberal Democrat, Winchester)

On the subject of how nicotine affects the brain and brain development, one thing we have not really touched on—and we have touched on many physical health issues—is the incidence of smoking among people with mental health issues. One submission was from the Mental Health and Smoking Partnership, which said that 45% of people with a serious mental health issue smoke, and around 25% of people with clinical anxiety. It would stand to reason that the impact on a young person’s brain could also start to lead to serious mental health issues, as well as all the physical health and development issues.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the importance of managing nicotine dependence for those with mental health conditions. We know that smoking, in particular, is more likely to take place among people with mental health conditions or those who are in mental health in-patient units. I am sure we will go on to discuss the issue of vending machines.

Last May, in the previous Bill Committee, we heard evidence from the Mental Health Foundation about the myth that tobacco helps with anxiety, and how that myth needed busting. We also heard about the importance of giving extra support to people with mental health conditions to enable them to kick the habit of nicotine—whether that habit is smoking or vaping—because it will help both their physical and mental health. However, it can be more challenging for them to complete. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that important issue.

Returning to clause 10, a study considering the effects in adolescents of nicotine dependence after the initiation of smoking cigarettes found that the symptoms of nicotine dependence can appear only a few days after initiation. Given that oral nicotine pouches contain similar or higher levels of nicotine, similar symptoms may appear following initiation of oral nicotine pouch use, which is why it is particularly important for children that we pass clause 10 and ensure that children are protected from these nicotine products.

The industry, as we have heard many times, claims to self-regulate. Some larger shops and some of the more reputable smaller shops claim not to sell oral nicotine pouches to anyone under 18, but there is evidence that some retailers still do, and it is indeed legal to do so if they wish. There remains a threat of new entrants to the market who choose to allow those under the age of 18 to purchase them. That could create direct harm from the effects of nicotine and cause similar concerns around youth vaping.

Jim Dickson (Labour, Dartford)

I applaud the hon. Lady for her admirable history lesson on the background of vaping. Can I ask how it is relevant to what we are discussing in terms of the penalties and the sale of products?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

It is relevant because we are discussing a product in the UK that we are considering essentially doing away with, and banning completely for children. The hon. Gentleman may note that we discussed the history of tobacco when we debated clause 1, on tobacco, and no less than two Members of the hon. Gentleman’s own party talked about how interesting and relevant that was—[Interruption.] At least one of those individuals appeared very genuine.

Let me go back to Hon Lik, who invented the first e-cigarette as a way to cure his own smoking addiction and to try to prevent deaths such as his father’s from lung cancer—and we have talked much about the potential for smoking to cause lung cancer. The basic concept of mimicking smoking via vaporising liquids remains the same. The company he started was later bought as a subsidiary of Imperial Tobacco, which again demonstrates that the industry will continue to try, where it can, to be involved in nicotine addiction.

The World Health Organisation proclaims that it does not consider electronic cigarettes a legitimate smoking cessation aid. It demands that marketers immediately remove from their material any suggestion that it considers electronic cigarettes to be safe and effective. In 2011, the WHO released a report on e-cigarettes recommending that they be regulated in the same way as tobacco products. Clause 10 will do some of that, inasmuch as it will bring e-cigarettes in line with the legislation on tobacco products so that they cannot be sold to under-18s. However, it does not go so far as to bring it in line with the new smoke-free generation legislation. The Minister may wish to comment on why he has not done so.

In the last Bill, the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) tabled an amendment that would have included nicotine products in the smoke-free generation legislation, banning them for those born after 1 January 2009 rather than just for under-18s. Her concern, as I understand it, was that the industry would pivot to other forms of nicotine that did not contain tobacco, hook a new generation on them and use similar marketing techniques to hook them on a lifetime of nicotine addiction, as it once did with tobacco. The Minister could seek to avoid that by preventing non-medicinal products containing nicotine from being used by anyone born after 1 January 2009. That power is within his grasp. On a personal level—this is not necessarily my party’s view—I would like him to seize that power.

The sale of vaping products to under-18s is addressed in clause 10. One of the reasons for restricting the sale is the range of pulmonary and coronary conditions—lung and heart conditions—that can occur for people who vape. To help us to understand why they are so damaging, it is important to understand what is in vapes per se. This is not just about nicotine products; it is also about vaping products.

As I say, nicotine is an extremely addictive substance that disrupts brain development in adolescence. Because adolescence is a critical time for neural development, it makes young people particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of nicotine. Adolescence is marked by substantial neurodevelopment, including synaptic pruning and the maturing of the pre-frontal cortex, the part of the brain that governs decision making, impulse control and emotional regulation. Nicotine exposure during this period can disrupt those processes, leading to lasting cognitive and behavioural impairment. Research indicates that nicotine alters the neurotransmitter systems, noticeably those using acetylcholine and glutamate receptors, affecting the neural pathways essential for learning and memory development. Nicotine exposure during adolescence has been linked to deficits in attention, learning and impulse control. Studies have shown that adolescents using nicotine products exhibit diminished cognitive performance and are more prone to mood disorders, including depression and anxiety.

Another reason to get rid of these products, which relates to the point made by the hon. Member for Winchester, is that they can lead, in and of themselves, to problems with mental health. As hon. Members will know, these issues can adversely affect academic achievement—as we have heard from teachers’ evidence in the past and evidence to this Committee—and social interactions, potentially leading to broader physical challenges.

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

May I ask the shadow Minister to shorten her very interesting and detailed explanation of why nicotine and other substances are harmful and focus more on the legislation and less on the historical and scientific background?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

You will be pleased to know that I have concluded my remarks on history for now, Sir Mark, but with your leave, I want to talk about a couple of the chemicals that are found in vaping products. It is important for hon. Members to understand the reason for banning vaping products per se, as opposed to just nicotine products. There is a reason why both are included, rather than just one. That is why I wanted to discuss nicotine and its effects, as well as the effects of some other chemical constituents of the vaping product.

Propylene glycol is another main constituent of vapes. It is used in antifreeze, paint solvents and artificial smoke for fog machines and helps the vape to carry the nicotine and flavours to the user. When used in small amounts it is considered safe, but when used in high doses or over prolonged periods it can accumulate and cause lactic acidosis, depression of the nervous system and haemolysis, the destruction of red blood cells. When one’s red blood cells are destroyed, one becomes anaemic, which makes one tired and can make one very unwell.

Another component in some vapes is diethylene glycol, a toxic compound found in antifreeze that is associated with lung disease. It can be used as a sweetener, but it has resulted in many epidemics of poisoning since the early 20th century, perhaps most famously when it was found in wine and many bottles of wine had to be recalled. Believe it or not, some vapes also contain formaldehyde, which is classified as carcinogenic by the International Agency for Research on Cancer, showing once again that the products that clause 10 seeks to ban are not as benign as some may believe or as their pretty colours and flavours may suggest. It can also cause respiratory and skin irritation on exposure.

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

Order. May I ask the shadow Minister to cut down on some of the detail? Just tell us that it is harmful and give us the reason, without going through a full paragraph on every chemical.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am grateful for your guidance, Sir Mark. Other chemicals found in some vapes that can be harmful are acrolein, which is a herbicide, and diacetyl, which is found in flavours such as chocolate milk and toffee because it has a buttery taste. Another is benzene, which is found in car exhaust fumes and is a carcinogenic chemical that can cause such things as acute lymphoblastic leukaemia, chronic lymphocytic leukaemia, multiple myeloma and non-Hodgkin lymphoma—all conditions that we certainly do not want children, or indeed anyone, to get.

It is also worth noting that, because e-cigarette heaters contain a coil and cartridge with a metal component, the vapour can contain some heavy metals, including cadmium, which can cause chest pain, shortness of breath and cancer; nickel, which is carcinogenic; lead, which we know causes health problems; and chromium. That is a non-exhaustive list. My speech originally contained such a long list that I feared it would take up all the Committee’s time. I do not want to do that, Sir Mark, or to test your patience, but I want to emphasise that these findings come from the research that has been done on vapes so far. It took time for the scientific community to establish the fact that cigarettes and tobacco are harmful to health and the ways in which they are harmful. We are already finding the health challenges of vaping, so it is important for us to take these steps today.

On 8 February 2023, I presented the Disposable Electronic Cigarettes (Prohibition of Sale) Bill, a ten-minute rule Bill that highlighted the challenges that vapes pose to the environment and to children’s health. I am pleased that the Government have now taken steps to ban them. Things have progressed, and I am personally delighted that this Bill is before the House. It is important to see the progression of legislation on vapes, which is so important not only to me but to Parliament and the country.

On clause 10, it is already an offence to sell nicotine vaping products to under-18s in all parts of the UK, but it is not an offence to sell nicotine products to them. Currently, local authority trading standards in England can bring a prosecution under section 7 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 for the under-age sale of tobacco products or cigarette papers; magistrates courts can impose a fine of £2,500 on conviction and prevent the individual from selling those products for 12 months. Under the Proxy Purchasing of Tobacco, Nicotine Products etc. (Fixed Penalty Amount) Regulations 2015, trading standards officers can issue a fixed penalty notice of £90 to individuals for purchasing or attempting to purchase tobacco and nicotine products for someone under 18. However, it is the adult making or attempting to make the purchase who commits the offence, not the retailer.

There are currently no restrictions on giving away free samples of nicotine or non-nicotine vapes—for marketing purposes, for example—to children and young people, meaning those under the age of 18. In contrast, the free distribution of tobacco products is banned for all ages under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002. Vaping companies have come to Parliament and given away free vapes to Members of Parliament and staffers who wanted to receive them.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

We are talking specifically about under-18s. I disagree with some of the later regulations on vaping, but when it comes to under-18s being given vaping products, I am aligned with the Government. Does my hon. Friend agree that if companies are giving away free products to Members of Parliament and staffers who are over the age of 18—some of them may be smokers—they are actually supporting the Government’s aim of getting to a smoke-free generation, which is very different from what we see in clause 10? I agree with the Government’s aim.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I think my hon. Friend highlights something common across our party. Many members of our party are uncertain, as I understand my hon. Friend is, about the changes to tobacco legislation for adults with the competency to make risk-based decisions. I understand your points; I do not necessarily share them, but I understand them.

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

Order. Speak through the Chair, please.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Sorry. Equally, I note that the vast majority of Members across the House, both in my party and in other parties, strongly agree with clause 10 and the other clauses that seek to ensure that children do not have access to these products. If someone sells a vaping or nicotine product to a purchaser who is under the age of 18, it is an offence. Under clause 10(2), the seller can defend themselves on the basis

“that they were shown what appeared to be an identity document belonging to the purchaser and it confirmed the purchaser’s age as at least 18 years old, or…that they otherwise took all reasonable steps to avoid the commission of the offence.”

The Minister has talked about the simplicity of the smoke-free generation and his view that it is easier for shop workers to look at a piece of identification and establish whether someone’s birthday was before or after 1 January 2009 than to establish whether someone was born 18 years ago by doing the mathematics in their head from the person’s date of birth. That brings me again to the question of why we will not have a nicotine-free generation as well as a smoke-free generation. Would it be classed as a reasonable step? If a shop worker had asked for ID, taken the proper ID, as defined in clause 10(3), and done the mathematics wrong in their head, would they have taken all reasonable steps or would their arithmetic error mean that they were to all intents and purposes a criminal? I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments.

Acceptable identity documents for the purpose of buying nicotine or vaping products if one is over the age of 18 include a passport, a UK driving licence, a driving licence from the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, a European photocard driving licence or a proof-of-age standards scheme card with a hologram. During the discussions of voter ID, there was a debate about how many people had access to different forms of ID. Passports are reasonably expensive and not everyone drives a car, so how would someone who did not drive a car or have a passport provide ID? When it came to voter ID, the previous Government looked at a number of reliable sources of identification that could be used, which included the veterans card, certain travel documents and the like.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Recent announcements from the Home Office have confirmed that businesses will be able to legally accept the use of digital proof of age for alcohol products. I would like to see that approach extended to these products, to make the life of retailers easier as far as identification goes. It would be good to have further consistency and an extension of the definition of identity documents to allow for digital forms.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Digital ID is not something that I am particularly familiar with, but nevertheless it sounds sensible, where ID is reliable, reproducible, not easily faked and easily identifiable by staff. Broadening the forms of acceptable ID would ensure that when somebody is old enough to legally purchase a product, it is not excessively challenging for them to obtain an ID to do so. Clearly the Minister would want people to be able to buy age-restricted products if they are old enough, so I am interested to hear his view not only on my hon. Friend’s intervention about digital identification, but on veterans cards, bus passes and other cards that demonstrate the age of the user and include a photograph for added reliability.

Clause 10(4) states:

“A person who commits an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.”

On a personal level, selling vapes and nicotine products to children is a dreadful thing to do, as I am sure the chief medical officer has said. I am more than happy for the Minister to increase that fine if he wants to, but I am interested to understand why he has set it at that level. Notwithstanding any changes across the four nations, it is important that we look at the choices that the Minister has made. That is what we are here to scrutinise.

The problem that clause 10 seeks to address is vaping among children. Are children vaping? Yes, I am afraid to say that they are, in large quantities. The biggest report of which I am aware that looked specifically at rates of youth vaping was published in 2023 by Healthwatch Blackpool. It looked at over 4,000 children and found that just under a third of them—31%—said that they

“currently vape or sometimes vape”.

Of those children, 65%

“expressed a preference for fruity flavoured vapes”,

which we will deal with later in the Bill. There is clearly an issue that vapes are being directly marketed to children with bright, attractive colours. Some of the most popular flavours include bubble gum, cotton candy, strawberry ice cream and unicorn milkshake. What does unicorn milkshake taste like? I have no idea, but it is easy to see the appeal to children.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I support my hon. Friend wholeheartedly on restricting flavours aimed at children, which I think is the Minister’s intention, but does she agree that vape flavours that are being advertised more generally, so long as they are straightforward and descriptive, can help people to shake smoking and can be firmly aimed at adults? The Government should not restrict the flavours so generally that the smoking cessation tool is weakened.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am afraid that once again I have to disagree with my hon. Friend. I do not believe that those who advertise brightly coloured vapes shaped like highlighters or SpongeBob SquarePants, or flavoured as unicorn milkshake and green gummy bear, are advertising them for the consumption of adults. I do not doubt that there are some adult smokers in their 40s who enjoy the flavour of unicorn milkshake and green gummy bear—perhaps those flavours are nice—but I do not believe that adults are the target audience for that marketing at all.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

Perhaps I explained myself ineloquently —or maybe my hon. Friend was being mischievous in her characterisation. I agree with her wholeheartedly, but I would say that raspberry is a perfectly legitimate flavour for an upstanding vape seller to sell to an adult smoker as a cessation device. I would not want to go too hard on that so that we do not cut off that legitimate smoking cessation route.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank my hon. Friend for clarifying his intervention but, again, I am not sure about that.

Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)

Order. Flavours will come up later in the Bill. The question really is not pertinent to clause 10.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I will ask my hon. Friend about this point later.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

My hon. Friend can ask me later, when we come to the colours and flavours.

To summarise, clause 10 is an important clause that seeks to stop children getting hold of vapes and nicotine products and, in so doing, aims to reduce the number of children who get hooked on nicotine, which has very harmful effects, and who may even damage themselves using vapes. In one school in my constituency, eight children collapsed after using vaping products. Lincolnshire police examined five of the vapes confiscated from the school and found that they contained antifreeze, poster varnish and other chemicals such as trichloroethylene, 2-methoxyethyl acetate, Steol-M and diethylene glycol diacetate—some very harmful chemicals that have no legal place in vapes at all. Some of those chemicals are banned, but are nevertheless being put into these products.

Clause 59 is similar, but, given the principle of devolution, applies to Scotland. It provides for the same principle of an extension of offences to vaping and nicotine products, but does so in recognition of the fact that Scotland has different laws by amending the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010. It adds various substitutions to ensure that it is not possible to buy tobacco and vaping products in Scotland, in order to protect the children of Scotland.

Clause 76 provides continuity across the United Kingdom based on the principles of devolution in Northern Ireland and of working together to protect the interests of children. That is very important. The clause adds article 4H, on the sale of vaping and nicotine products, to the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978 after article 4G, which is itself inserted by clause 75. This provision essentially inserts the same provisions as those in clause 10, except that once again we see a higher penalty in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is clearly more concerned with punishing those who sell vaping and nicotine products to children than the Minister appears to be.

Amendments 63, 64, 80 and 81 look specifically at the proportionality of penalties and the balance in choosing them—whether they be as punitive as those in Northern Ireland, or those in place for snus for people who are reckless and do it often as opposed to those who have committed a first offence and do not do it so often.

New clause 10 refers to the age verification requirement for online sales, which we touched on this morning. The Minister seems to have thought this through carefully. The legislation provides for what to do in the event that products are being sold in shops, and looks at signage and how to prevent shops from selling tobacco. We also talked about how the industry will try to get around the provision and the fact that people are looking to provide an app to get around vending machines; whereby people would not buy these products from the vending machines but would buy them online and then collect them from the vending machine, so it would not be a vending machine but really a collection machine. That is a technicality, but it could allow people to sell products in a way that we do not wish them to.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I echo what my hon. Friend is saying, particularly in relation to online sales. I think we are all very aware that one aspect is being in the shop and physically trying to buy a product with ID; I take it from the ingenuity of our younger generation that they will always find ways around that, especially online, so we should perhaps give some further thought to how we can ensure that the companies are operating effectively—that there is robustness without over-regulation and that we have the methods to ensure that people are not following another loophole.

Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)

Order. Before we proceed, let me explain that Sir Mark has had to leave the Chair and I am taking over for the duration—for as long as you choose to sit. I have, however, been briefed, so I am sure that nobody in the room will seek to take advantage of a change of Chairman to cover the same subjects all over again.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

That is very kind of you, Sir Roger. It is good to see you in the Chair, and an honour to serve under your chairmanship again. As you have been briefed, we are discussing clause 10, the importance of banning the sale of vaping and nicotine products to children. We had just moved on to new clause 10, which is part of this group of amendments. It was tabled by the Opposition and looks at the online marketplace, because there is concern that the industry seeks every single workaround and loophole as creatively as possible. The new clause seeks to ensure that guidance is provided to prevent advantage from being taken in the online marketplace, particularly because we have seen adverts for “no ID” sales, which clearly are designed to entice children to buy products that they should not be able to get.

Subsection (4)(d) of the new clause talks about

“the form and content of notices…displayed on websites”,

so it looks at the messaging. I suppose that is the equivalent of clauses 5 and 6: “What should our billboard notice say?”

New clause 10(5) says:

“A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable…to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.”

The Minister may wish to change that—it was the opening point for that offence—but again there clearly needs to be a penalty for people who do sell in the online marketplace.

Subsection (6) says:

“Regulations under subsection (3) are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”

We did talk about the negative resolution procedure—my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor is temporarily not in his place—but essentially the affirmative resolution procedure means that regulations would require, I believe, a vote in the House to push them forward.

Just to clarify, subsection (7) says:

“In this section…‘the appropriate national authority’”,

which would be able to provide the regulations and produce the guidance, would be the Secretary of State in England and the Welsh Ministers in Wales.

The principle of this proposal is that vaping businesses that operate online should be subject to the same regulations, rules and laws, enforced with the same stringency and severity, as corner shops, supermarkets and the like.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I rise to speak in support of new clause 10, on banning those who are under 18 from vaping. Many know about the health risks of smoking. They see it as a bad habit and disgusting, as the children of my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon noted, but vapes are seen as being new age and social. Parents are in danger of encouraging vaping by buying something that they think is safer than smoking or drugs. We must be very careful about that, so this ban will be important in restricting sales. Children fear being excluded, so, through peer pressure, they are forced into vaping. We need to stamp out this practice.

Children are often confused about vaping. The problem is that they get an accidental addition to nicotine and struggle to pay attention in school, which has a negative impact not just on them but on their classmates. Apparently, children vape to deal with stress and anxiety—they are almost self-medicating, which is appalling. It is right that we protect our children by introducing this offence.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

My hon. Friend talks about children self-medicating, but are they not making the situation worse? The use of vapes and nicotine products may exacerbate, rather than ease, any mental health symptoms that they have.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Absolutely. Unlike my hon. Friend, I am not a medical professional, but I wholeheartedly agree that it is a self-perpetuating cycle, and we need to stop it as soon as possible to protect children.

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I want to make two points about this part of the Bill. First, I support new clause 10, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham. It is essential that we close off all avenues for children to purchase vapes. In the Bill, the Government have done a very good job of dealing with physical retailers, but there is a gap in relation to online retailers. I hope the Minister is minded to support the new clause, either when we come to a vote on it in a few moments, or by inserting something similar into the Bill on Report to ensure we close off online retailers.

In my opinion, online retailers are more dangerous than physical shops. A child—especially a very young child—has to depart from their guardian or their adult to go and buy something in a shop, whereas they can purchase products online on their phone or computer in the comfort of their own home, and it is very difficult for a parent or a senior person in their family to spot that. We know that that is where a number of children and young people are getting these products, so we have to close off that avenue.

My second point is about a more fundamental issue with the clause itself. My hon. Friend the shadow Minister has said this quite extensively, but it bears repeating so that we get some answers from the Minister. It does not seem obvious why the Government decided to ban vapes for anyone under the age of 18, whereas for other tobacco products it is for anyone born on or after 1 January 2009. I completely accept that vapes can be used as a smoking cessation tool; it is important that they are used in that way.

When we come on to vending machines, there are medical settings in which people require some form of intervention to help to stop smoking, and we should be looking at that. However, it is not beyond the wit of the Bill’s drafting to apply 1 January 2009 to tobacco products, and then to create an exemption specifically for smoking cessation. I want to understand why the Minister has decided to make this distinction. Does he not see the potential risks in doing so? Hopefully, we all want people not to be addicted to any products that are harmful to them, but both retailers and consumers, when faced with two sets of rules for very similar products, could become confused and accidently fall foul of the law. Because of that confusion, the law might not be enforced as the Minister would like it to be. I very much hope the Minister addresses those two points in his closing remarks on these clauses.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

rose—

Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)

Order. Forgive me, I have only just taken over as Chair, but the hon. Gentleman was not in the room for a chunk of this debate. Is that correct?

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

It is, Sir Roger. I went to the toilet.

Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)

In that case, I do not think it is quite appropriate for the hon. Gentleman to speak. I will allow him to speak very briefly, but I do mean brief.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I disagree with the Government on some of the clauses dealing with vaping, but I will come to those later, when it is more appropriate. I agree with what the Government are trying to do in clauses 10, 11 and 12 to toughen things up for under-18s. To that end, I encourage them to support new clause 10, tabled by the shadow Minister, which tries to make purchasing more difficult for under-18s online. We talked earlier about the principle of vending machines, which is addressed in clause 12 and by trying to ensure age verification when there is no one else present. It seems to me that new clause 10 is entirely in line with that, so I hope the Minister might consider supporting it.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

It is good to see you back in the Chair, Sir Roger. Before addressing these amendments, the respective clauses and the proposed new clause, I want to make it clear that I will be using the generic term “vapes or vaping products” throughout to refer to vapes, e-cigarettes or nicotine vapour products. Likewise, I will use the term “nicotine products” to refer to consumer nicotine products, such as nicotine pouches. I am not referring to licensed nicotine-based medicines, which will not be further restricted by the Bill.

Under clause 10 it will continue to be an offence to sell a nicotine vape to a person who is under the age of 18 in England and Wales, and anyone who is found guilty of the offence will be liable to pay a fine of up to £2,500 if convicted. It is a defence if the person can prove they were shown what appeared to be an identity document belonging to the purchaser that showed they were over 18, or that they otherwise took all reasonable steps to avoid committing an offence. The clause also extends this age of sale restriction to consumer nicotine products and non-nicotine vapes, as we know that children are accessing those products. There are currently no age of sale restrictions on those products, and non-nicotine vapes can easily have nicotine solutions manually added to them.

Clause 59 refers to Scotland and extends existing offences in Scotland for selling vaping products to under-18s, proxy purchases on behalf of under-18s, and failure to operate an age verification policy related to vaping products, so nicotine products are also covered in those offences. By amending that legislation, we will align the approach across the United Kingdom, which is the wish of the devolved Administrations. The clause amends Scottish legislation by replacing the term “nicotine vapour products” with the term “vaping products”, thus aligning the definitions across the UK.

Another of the changes to Scottish legislation in this clause makes it an offence for any person managing or controlling a premises to have a prohibited vending machine available for use. This effectively maintains the existing prohibition in Scotland on vending machines selling vaping and tobacco products; indeed, it extends it to include machines from which nicotine products, herbal smoking products and cigarette papers can be purchased. Again, this aligns the approach across the UK.

Clause 76 applies similar measures in Northern Ireland to those in England and Wales, meaning that it will be an offence to sell a vaping or nicotine product to a person in Northern Ireland under the age of 18, thereby expanding current Northern Ireland legislation to cover all vaping products and nicotine products. Anyone convicted of the offence will be liable to a pay a fine of up to £5,000. All these measures for England, Scotland and Northern Ireland will come into force six months after the Bill receives Royal Assent, to give retailers time to introduce them.

These clauses will play an important role in ensuring that we can tackle youth vaping successfully. They provide businesses with certainty as to who they may legally sell products to, and they reinforce our health advice that children should never vape.

However, the amendments tabled by the shadow Minister would undermine that approach by creating a more lenient penalty regime for the offence of selling vaping or nicotine products to someone under age. They would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would either be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale—that is, a fine of £1,000—or be given a caution instead. Level 3 is one level lower than the level 4 fine of £2,500 that someone who commits this offence is liable to under the current legislation.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

The Minister knows me well enough to understand that I would never seek more lenient penalties for those selling vapes to children; there is no excuse for selling vapes to children. However, I am concerned that there may be sales in the online marketplace that are not adequately covered by the regulations as they are currently drafted. The principle of new clause 10 was to ensure that such offences are properly covered, so I would be grateful for his reassurance in that regard.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I will come to that; I am just spelling out why I am concerned about the consequences of the shadow Minister’s proposals in the amendment, because they would lead to more lenient penalties for those committing an offence for the first time than they are liable to under the current legislation. Again, like the amendments that we have already discussed, the effect would be to create a first-time offence, and if the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself, as the rationale for my asking the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendment remains the same.

The shadow Minister’s new clause 10 would introduce an offence in England and Wales for businesses selling vaping products online without applying an age verification policy. It would therefore create a requirement for businesses selling vaping products online to take steps to establish and ensure that any customer attempting to purchase those products online was above the age of 18.

Although I am incredibly sympathetic to the shadow Minister’s intentions, as I said earlier, the Bill already makes it an offence in England and Wales to sell a vaping or nicotine product to anyone under the age of 18. As with in-person retail, online retailers must take all reasonable steps to avoid selling vaping products to anyone under age. Alongside the Bill, we are exploring how we can enhance online age verification to further tackle online under-age sales. The office for digital identities and attributes, which sits within the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, is creating a framework of standards and governance, underpinned by legislation, which will enable the widespread use of trusted digital identity services. We are working closely with DSIT to consider how its work to enable the use of digital identities can best support retailers selling tobacco and vapes, whether online or in-person. It is for those reasons that I commend clauses 10, 59 and 76.

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

I may have missed the Minister’s explanation, but why has he decided not to have the incremental increase for vapes when he has it for smoking? Does he feel that there is something fundamentally different about vapes, beyond the smoking cessation element, that could have been an exemption from the progressive age range that he has for tobacco?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

The hon. Gentleman should panic not; I had not quite come to the end of my contribution. I was merely saying that it is for those reasons that I commend clause 10, clause 59 and clause 76 to the Committee.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

rose—

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

If the hon. Lady will allow me to first answer her hon. Friend, it may well be that I answer her thoughts in the course of answering him. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that there is a difference here between our approach to tobacco and to vapes. The hon. Lady—the shadow Minister—has, rightly, always been, and will continue to be, a doughty campaigner for a nicotine-free generation and for a smoke-free generation. That may well be where we end up at some stage in the future. However, we believe that the measures in the Bill are entirely appropriate and proportionate. We are not planning to raise the age of sale for vapes in a similar way to that for tobacco; let me explain why.

Tobacco is a uniquely harmful product. No other consumer product kills two thirds of its users. It is therefore entirely appropriate to create a smoke-free generation, as we are seeking to do in this legislation, and to gradually phase out tobacco so that it is a thing of history. Although vaping is not harm-free—I will come on to the harms in due course—it is less harmful than smoking and, currently, we do not believe that a generational age of sale restriction on vapes would be an appropriate response to the current evidence in relation to health harms. Instead, the Bill contains strong measures to stop the promotion and the blatant advertising of vapes to children, and so bring about definitive and positive change to stop future generations from becoming hooked on nicotine.

It may well be, over the course of the coming years, that greater evidence emerges about the harms of nicotine. Lots of studies of vaping are taking place and it may well be that we have to take further action; that is why the measures in the Bill are permissive. The tobacco industry has often, after having one route closed off to it, sought an alternative route to maintain market share and market presence. It may well be that the vaping industry employs exactly the same tactics—all the evidence so far would suggest that it does. That is why the measures in the Bill are not just proportionate for the here and now but future-proof, so that Ministers can come back to Parliament, on a whole range of issues, and seek to close off other routes.

I would hope that, with that explanation, the hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon understands that there is a very big difference between tobacco and vaping. However, we reserve the right to return to Parliament and to utilise the powers in this Bill, should we be granted them, to ensure that, if there is evidence of harms, we can immediately respond to those.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I commend the Minister on making the evidence-based point about the difference between a smoke-free generation and a nicotine-free generation. Does he agree—I think he does, given the comments he has just made—that there are some somewhat sweeping powers here, which could be used to come back and ask for more legislation against vaping companies? Does he agree that that potential lack of certainty for legitimate vaping businesses might impede investment in this space, which is actually contributing to the benefit of a smoke-free generation?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

There is nothing in the Bill that we are proposing to do that will restrict the legitimate sale of vapes. As a Government, we recognise that vapes have been used, and continue to be used, as a stop smoking tool. Our advice remains very clear: vapes are not harm free. We do not yet know the full extent of the harm, but as we heard from the chief medical officers from the four nations, it is unlikely that they are harm free. Indeed, there is limited evidence showing some harms, and there are lots of studies and research taking place to ascertain what the long-term impacts of vaping might be.

Our advice remains clear: if a person has never smoked, not smoking, and not vaping, is the best thing. If a person has smoked, vaping is safer than smoking, but it is not risk-free, and as a smoking cessation tool, it has proven to be successful for some. We do not want children to ever take up vaping—ever, and not in adulthood, either. Vaping is for people who have been smokers who want to give up; vapes are a safer product than tobacco.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank the Minister for clearly explaining that children should never vape. In fact, if children are smoking and wish to quit, they can get support from their GP and others, but they should not use vaping, because vaping is bad for children.

To take the Minister back to my question about new clause 10, before he took the two previous interventions, he said that he is working with DSIT to provide regulations and legislation that would cover new clause 10 and ensure that online sellers of age-restricted products are obliged to check a person’s age before selling them. Will he advise when he expects such regulations to be available? Will they be in time for his smoke-free generation in a couple of years’ time?

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I absolutely hope that the measures will be worked on at pace and will be available for that. Officials from the Department of Health and Social Care are working closely with colleagues in DSIT to ensure that these matters are included in the online age verification legislation that it is seeking to introduce.

A couple of other points were raised in the course of the debate. On the issue of fines and why there are inconsistencies, I do not wish to over-labour the point, but the maximum fines that the shadow Minister quoted are consistent with existing tobacco and vapes legislation. We believe they are proportionate to the severity of the offences. There is a bit of a pushmi-pullyu argument here, because on the one hand we have had amendments that seek to have more lenient penalties, and on the other, arguments for harsher penalties. We believe that the current fine levels in England are appropriate, which is why we are remaining with them. It is for trading standards to take a proportionate approach to enforcement, deciding the appropriate action to take for a given case to achieve compliance based on the evidence before it.

On TikTok and advertising, I understand that the Advertising Standards Agency has issued an enforcement notice to vaping companies and brands instructing them to stop any advertising on TikTok. To date, it has reported around 300 posts, approximately 80% of which predated the notice to TikTok for removal.

On the issue of enforcement with physical sales, and online sales with age verification, it was interesting that in the evidence session we heard from National Trading Standards that it has undertaken test purchasing both in brick and mortar premises and online and that the failure rate in brick and mortar premises was 26%, compared with 10% online. We do not want any breaches of the law, but that puts into context that the current issues tend to be on the ground rather than online—although we need to cover all bases. I ask the shadow Minister to withdraw her amendments and proposed new clause.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am grateful to the Minister for providing the extra information. Amendments 63, 64, 81 and 80 were designed once again to provoke debate on the coherency of the penalties across the different clauses of the Bill. Sometimes the penalties are different for the same offence and, inexplicably, sometimes they are the same for different offences that perhaps one would expect them to be different for. However, I will not press those amendments to a vote, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Clause 11 - PURCHASE OF VAPING OR NICOTINE PRODUCTS ON BEHALF OF UNDER 18S

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I beg to move amendment 65, in clause 11, page 6, line 5, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”.

See explanatory statement to Amendment 66.

Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 66, in clause 11, page 6, line 5, at end insert—

“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a caution.”.

This amendment, together with Amendment 63, 64, and 65, prevents penalties for a first offence under sections 10 and 11 being beyond level 3 and provides for a discretionary caution.

Clause stand part.

Amendment 82, in clause 77, page 40, line 22, at end insert

“, save if it is a first offence.”.

See explanatory statement to Amendment 83.

Amendment 83, in clause 77, page 40, line 22, at end insert—

“(3A) A person who has admitted guilt of a first offence under this Article is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale or a conditional caution.”.

This amendment, together with amendments 80, 81, and 82, prevent penalties for a first offence under sections 76 and 77 (pertaining to age of sale restrictions for vaping and nicotine products in Northern Ireland) beyond level 3 and provides for a caution.

Clause 77 stand part.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Amendments 65 and 66 apply to clause 11. In line with other Opposition amendments tabled to various clauses of this Bill, they seek to provoke debate on the coherency of the penalties. They encourage the Minister to look in detail at those penalties before Report—specifically, to consider the differences between the shop worker, the shopkeeper and the shop owner in terms of the level of fine required, and also to consider the individual who inadvertently commits an offence on one occasion versus the person or company that deliberately and repeatedly flouts the law and require different handling.

Amendment 65 amends clause 11 to add at the end of page 6, line 5,

“, save if it is a first offence.”,

while amendment 66 inserts:

“A person who has admitted guilt”—

that is, a person who has owned up—

“of a first offence under this section is liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale”.

I think I have explained what those are for.

Clause 11 makes it a criminal offence for a person aged 18 or over to purchase, or attempt to purchase, a vaping or nicotine product on behalf of someone who is under the age of 18—essentially stopping adults from buying vapes for kids. Clearly, buying things for children that are so potentially harmful to them is not the action of a responsible adult.

If a person is charged with this offence, they can defend themselves by saying that they had no reason to suspect that the person they were buying for was under 18. It is not really clear to me when that sort of a situation would occur. If someone is under 18, it should be fairly obvious that they are quite young. Any responsible adult who knew the child would have an idea of how old they were, and any responsible adult who did not know the child would surely guess that there was a risk in buying something for someone who looked young, in case they were under 18 and incriminated themselves. I understand why the defence is there, but I am not really sure how it would be used. The Minister may be able to enlighten us further.

A person found guilty in relation to this offence is liable to a fine up to level 4 on the standard scale, which amounts to £2,500. This clause is very important, because we must stop children getting access to vapes. Popular culture tells us that vapes are very accessible to children. For example, we were all glued to our screens—I know we were in the Johnson household—watching Luke Littler, the recent BBC young sports personality of the year, win the PDC world darts championship. It was fabulous to see someone so young achieve such an amazing feat.

Luke Littler won half a million pounds, which is a wonderful thing for that young gentleman, but he reportedly said that he would celebrate by vaping. Of course, he is actually a 17-year-old young man, despite his great achievements. He is a sports prodigy, a national hero, and a wonderful example to young people of what can be achieved at a young age, but presumably, until he turns 18 very soon, he will need someone else to buy vapes for him. That will be illegal under the new law.

On a more serious note, we know through the various different reports that on county lines, where people are selling drugs, they are often giving vapes to children as a way of enticing them into feeling that they are favoured by those adults. They are using children’s addiction to nicotine and desire for further vapes, and for access to further vapes, as part of a grooming process to get them into dreadful situations with county lines. Clause 11, which prevents children’s access to vaping and nicotine products via a proxy adult, is a very sensible measure that I will support.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her support. Clause 11 means that it will be an offence for a person aged 18 or over to buy, or attempt to buy, a vaping or nicotine product on behalf of a person who is under the age of 18 in England and Wales. The clause replaces the existing restrictions, which only apply to nicotine vapes.

Similarly, for Northern Ireland, clause 77 means that it will be an offence for a person aged 18 or over to buy, or attempt to buy, a vaping or nicotine product on behalf of a person who is under the age of 18 in Northern Ireland. The clause replaces the existing restrictions that only apply to nicotine vapes and extends them to non-nicotine vapes and nicotine products such as nicotine pouches. Anyone convicted of the offence would be liable to a fine of up to £5,000. Both of these clauses contain the defence for those charged that, if they can prove they had no reason to suspect the person they were buying the product for was under 18, that would be considered.

Vaping is less harmful than smoking, and can be an effective quit aid for adult smokers, but vapes are never recommended for children. The active ingredient in most vapes and all consumer nicotine products is nicotine, which when inhaled is a highly addictive drug. Nicotine in vapes can cause addiction, and this is particularly acute for adolescents while their brains are still developing. It can also increase the risk of developing other conditions such as respiratory disease.

Giving up nicotine is very difficult, and withdrawal symptoms can include cravings, irritability, anxiety, trouble concentrating—it sounds like this Committee, Sir Roger—headaches and other mental symptoms. The long-term health harms of colours and flavours when inhaled are unknown, but they are very unlikely to be beneficial. Enforcement is a vital part of protecting children from these harms.

I turn now to the amendments, which would create a more lenient penalty regime for purchasing vaping or nicotine products on behalf of someone under age, known as proxy purchasing, in England and Wales and in Northern Ireland. It would create an exception to the maximum penalty a person can face for committing this offence if it is this person’s first offence. It would establish that someone who admits to committing an offence for the first time would be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale—£1,000—or be given a caution instead. That is one level lower than the fine that someone who commits this offence is liable to under the current legislation, which allows a level 4 fine of £2,500. This has a similar effect to amendments we have already discussed. Therefore, if the Committee is content, I will not repeat myself, as the rationale for asking the shadow Minister to withdraw the amendment remains the same.

It is for these reasons that I commend clauses 11 and 77 to the Committee, and ask that the hon. Lady withdraw her amendments.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Amendments 65, 66, 82 and 83 were specifically there to provoke debate on the coherency of the penalty portfolio across the Bill. The Minister has clarified his position on that. It is very important that we see those who are selling vapes to children or, in the case of clause 11, buying vapes for children, appropriately deterred from doing so or appropriately punished. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Clause 12 - Vaping and nicotine product vending machines

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I beg to move amendment 96, in clause 12, page 6, line 8, at end insert—

“(1A) The offence set out in subsection (1) does not apply to vending machines that are located within specialised mental health units that provide care for mental health patients.”

Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause stand part.

Clause 78 stand part.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

This amendment states:

“The offence set out in subsection (1) does not apply to vending machines that are located within specialised mental health units that provide care for mental health patients.”

I tabled this amendment on the basis of the evidence provided to us. I put on record that the Committee received a letter by Peter Terry, a

“Smoke Free lead in a large Mental Health Trust in the North West of England”.

In his letter, he says,

“As you may be aware the success of hospitals and Trusts becoming smokefree environments (especially Mental Health units) is particularly challenging. Mental Health service users due to their conditions have little or no motivation to stop smoking. On the units of my trust the prevalence of smoking is consistently between 70-77%.”

He goes on to say:

“To ensure we allow service users who are hospitalized a safer way to manage their nicotine addiction...my Trust would require Vending machines. These would allow service users to purchase a closed pod system device, which is a lot less harmful than tobacco smoking. On admission they would be offered either free NRT products or to purchase a vape as described above.”

He is asking that we make an exemption.

The exemption was also supported in another submission from the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough NHS foundation trust. Ben Kingsbury, the tobacco dependency lead in that trust, wrote to express his concerns over the ban on the sale of vapes from vending machines. He indicated that his trust had installed vending machines back in May 2024

“to ensure that vapes are available to staff and patients at all times.”

He stated:

“Since installation of the vending machines in our Trust we have had over 2400 individual vends. Each vend represents a staff or service user making a positive decision to improve their health. 2400 individual vends in just 6 months represents a saving to the Trust of around £12,000.”

He argued:

“Removing the machines will reduce patients’ independence in buying their own devices while in hospital and will have a financial implication to our Trust, as wards would be expected to fund more vapes.”

He was also concerned that

“a lack of vape provision on our Trust premises may result in patients returning to smoking”,

which I am sure we all agree we do not wish to be the result. He also asked that we consider the financial implications, as well as health and wellbeing of service users, by implementing the exemption.

We can all empathise with those who are admitted to mental health units. They may have difficult and complex conditions that they need to work through, and coping with a potential addiction may be too much for them. There may be a logic to listen to the voices of the experts—especially if we end up having smoke-free places around hospitals and how that will work out—asking us to allow a mechanism to help someone with smoking cessation.

The Minister himself has just said that vaping can be good to help someone quit, but if they do not have access to a vape they may face difficulties such as cravings, anxiety, trouble concentrating and all the other elements that go with it, including potentially going back to smoking tobacco in its pure form. Taking away the option from those in mental health units will only make their recovery harder, longer and more expensive for the NHS. I heartedly commend to all members of the Committee that we all consider this amendment thoroughly, to ensure that we are not doing additional harm by taking an aggressive approach in this regard.

Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire for moving the amendment. One thing we have seen across the debate thus far, and indeed during oral evidence, is that we have been led by the evidence—the Minister has clearly said that. The evidence that my hon. Friend has provided is from medical experts. These are not vape peddlers or people from the industry, or people who want to make a quick buck out of those who are addicted to nicotine. These are health professionals who are trying to ensure that there is a balance between what is absolutely right—we do not want to see people vaping—and the reality of the situation in medical settings, especially in mental health settings, where the ability for patients to have a certain amount of autonomy is often vital to their mental recovery.

My hon. Friend also made the valid point that if we remove smoking and tobacco products from in and around hospitals, which is a suggestion in the Bill that I think I support, we must ensure that those who are addicted—and we accept that it is an addiction—are dealt with appropriately. Obviously, in most regular acute trusts, that would be dealt with through a nicotine patch, but for mental health services, as I said, the requirement for autonomy should sometimes outweigh the functional nature of a nicotine patch. Indeed, my understanding is that nicotine patches do not work for everyone, because some of the addiction is in the holding as well as the imbibing.

I welcome the Minister’s response. As I have said to him on previous amendments, even if he is not happy with the precise wording my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire has put forward, I hope that he can bring in some kind of exemption on Report, so that the medical professionals who have written to us are satisfied that their concerns have been heard?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Amendment 96 and clause 12 relate to vaping and nicotine product vending machines. I support the clause; indeed, if one looks at proceedings on the previous, Conservative iteration of the Bill from earlier this year, one will see that new clause 4, which was signed by just under 40 Members proposed a ban on vaping product vending machines, and the lead name was mine. I was concerned that vending machines would be used by children to obtain vaping and nicotine products. That loophole in the law that would make it easy—as we have seen with cigarettes in the past—for youngsters to circumvent the age-restricted product legislation designed to protect them, by allowing them to buy things from a machine that was not checking how old they were. I am therefore clearly supportive of this legislation.

Clause 12 makes it an offence for a person who manages or controls a premises to have a vending machine that sells vaping or nicotine products—

“an automatic machine from which”

vaping or nicotine products “may be bought”. Again, I ask the Minister to look at the principle of machines “from which” these products “may be bought” and to reconsider the wording to ensure that the industry cannot sell products using an app or online platform that can then be collected from a dispensing machine, in the same way as someone might buy something off a retailer and collect it from another retailer or a lock box collection point.

Banning the sale of vaping products, nicotine products and cigarette papers from vending machines would, by virtue of the various clauses in the Bill, including clauses 12 and 17, be a UK-wide provision. That would be beneficial because it would have consistency across the UK in a positive direction. The clause introduces a new offence, as there are currently no restrictions on the use of vaping or nicotine product vending machines in the UK, in the way that there is with tobacco vending machines. This is a new offence, and in my view a welcome one.

Self-service vending machines provide an anonymous, unregulated environment where individuals under the legal age could otherwise purchase vaping or nicotine products without any face-to-face interaction with a retailer, clearly increasing the risk of under-age sales. The offence will come into force six months after Royal Assent, which means that premises that currently contain a vape or nicotine product vending machine will have time to remove it or to stock it with a product that can legitimately be sold to younger people.

The primary rationale behind the restriction on vape vending machines is to reduce vaping rates, particularly among minors and children. The Government’s aims, as I understand them, are to protect young people from the harmful effects of vaping by limiting their access to vaping and nicotine products. Vape or nicotine product vending machines, which may also be used for pouches, are seen as a mechanism to bypass the responsibility of retail staff in ensuring that restrictions are met, contributing to increased sales.

The fine is level 4 on the standard scale, which is similar to that for selling over the counter. That makes sense to me, but I want to ask the Minister who qualifies as a person who manages or controls a premises? If it is a tenanted property, does that mean the landlord or the tenant who has control of the premises? If it is a larger retailer, such as a large supermarket, who controls those premises? Who takes the blame there? Is it the person who was on shift as the supervisor? Is it the store manager? On a more general basis, is it the regional manager or the managing director of the company? Who is responsible for managing and controlling those premises? The Minister needs to provide guidance on that so that people understand their responsibilities and so that, in the event a crime is committed and a vending machine is put in place, fingers are not pointed in every direction, making it impossible to work out whose responsibility and fault it was, such that nobody is held to account for the breach.

The Department of Health and Social Care has produced an impact assessment for the Bill, and paragraph 477 says:

“Regulating vape flavours, packaging, and presentation, as well as point of sale displays, and banning vending machines which sell vapes and nicotine products is expected to reduce the number of people taking up vaping, and therefore it is expected that there will be environmental benefits from reduced litter from vaping products.”

The clause will therefore benefit the health of not just our children but the environment in which they live and grow.

Paragraph 781 of the impact assessment highlights the following information about vending machines and under-age sales:

“A survey conducted by ASH”—

which gave evidence to our Committee last week—

“found that 6.6% of 11–17-year-olds who currently vape used machines as a source of vapes.”

Given that vaping vending machines are not currently that common, that seems quite a high figure. Without a ban and the implementation of the clause, that figure will surely increase.

Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)

I appreciate the point that the hon. Lady is making and those that other Members have made. As I understand it, we already have a law that bans people from purchasing vapes from a customer-managed vending machine. The only vending machines that should be selling vapes are managed by someone else. Can I just clarify that that is the case, because I think there is some confusion about how people are getting these vapes at hospitals and particularly in mental health settings? I have a concern about that because it puts vulnerable people, in a sense, with an addictive product. Can I just clarify that vending machines for vapes are currently not allowed in this country, except where they are not individually customer operated?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I will come to amendment 96 and the mental health aspect shortly, but I will deal with the clause first, which makes sure that these vending machines are not available. At the moment, one can buy nicotine products in a vending machine where those exist. As I said, the ASH survey showed that 6.6% of 11 to 17-year-olds who currently vape have access to vapes through a vending machine, so this is happening in the UK already. The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say earlier that, until this Bill passes, it is not illegal to sell nicotine products to children. Some responsible retailers have a voluntary scheme for not selling to under-18s, but it is not a legal requirement. Some irresponsible sellers do sell vapes to children.

Paragraph 782 of the impact assessment says:

“There is limited evidence presented on the number and locations of vape vending machines, however it is suggested by online retailers that they are currently predominantly placed in locations such as nightclubs, bars and pubs. It is anticipated that”

without this legislation

“the market will develop further and vape vending machines will become more prevalent in other locations such as supermarkets, train/bus stations and other locations accessible to under-18s.”

In my mind’s eye, I remember recently seeing a vape in a vending machine alongside sweets; I just cannot quite remember where it was, but it was certainly somewhere that was easily accessible to people.

The aim of the clause is to protect children and to ensure that vending machines—commonly found dispensing food and drink in child-friendly establishments such as canteens and leisure centres, and easily used by young people—are not available. The machines protect anon—anonymity; I might have to put my teeth in, Sir Mark—

Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)

It is catching!

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

It is catching—it is the time of day, I think.

Paragraph 787 of the impact assessment says:

“We know that one of the main reasons children take up vaping is due to peer pressure…It is therefore worth considering that instances of vape vending machines in easily accessible areas might be an enabler for those who would not otherwise seek out a vape or who would be deterred by having to speak to an adult”.

Children would have to seek out an adult to make a purchase, because they have to go to a till or counter to get the vapes. Under the new legislation, that adult would look for ID, while a vending machine would provide a circumnavigation, so this is a sensible clause.

Most of us recognise that the vending machines currently selling disposable vapes have a finite lifetime, because this Government have banned them in the future under a statutory instrument in the competence of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. However, British American Tobacco has already stated that it is working on a product to sell the Velo brand—one of its nicotine pouches—via “age-gated vending machines” and is hiring for the product. Again, that is taken from the impact assessment.

That further highlights the need for a blanket ban on vending machines, particularly given that, as things stand, they are clearly advertising tools for vaping. Wherever the machines are placed, they are visible to the consumer, and the consumer needs to know what is in the vending machine in order to choose what to buy. Given the regulations appearing later in the Bill, we will be looking at the display of such products. It therefore seems nonsensical to have restrictions on the display of products, but to allow vending machines, which allow the display of products, in contravention of that. One aim of the Bill is to ensure that non-smokers do not begin vaping and get hooked on nicotine. These provisions strengthen that through age verification and on the marketing front.

Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Mark. Based on the behaviour of vape companies now, which is similar to that of tobacco companies previously, this proposal would allow further expansion of vending machines and further display on vending machines in more and more places. Is that the point that the hon. Member is making?

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

In essence, in relation to clause 12, yes. I do not think that vending machines including tobacco and nicotine products or vapes are a good idea, and I moved a new clause for inclusion in the previous Bill because a ban on nicotine and vaping products in vending machines had not been included at the outset. Without such a measure, we will see an expansion of vending machines as a way of selling products to children and getting children addicted. It will be done as a way of making products more available to adults, but its effect will be that the products are more available to children. I do not want to see such products available to children, because they are clearly harmful for them. All the medical evidence we have had states that clearly.

With regard to individuals in mental health hospitals, some may be there as voluntary patients, and some under a mental health section. When someone’s liberty has been taken from them because they are being treated for a mental health condition, we need to be careful that we are not restricting them in other ways in which we would not restrict other people. That is a fair point to make.

We also have to be mindful of the staff. As we go through the Bill, the Minister will rightly be looking at exposure to vaping inside hospitals and at extending the tobacco regulations that limit smoking in public indoor places to cover vaping in indoor public spaces. Indeed, he and you, Sir Roger, will have seen the signs placed in the Tea Room by the Speaker, who rightly wants to see that we do not have vaping there. The public do not want vaping in their tea rooms or in the public domain either, so that is the right thing to do. We need to consider that there are staff and other patients in mental health hospitals who may not wish to vape and should not be inadvertently and unnecessarily exposed to vaping products.

I do not support the idea that 2,400 vends means that this is a positive choice. For some of these people, vaping may have been a positive change from smoking, but for others it may have been a decision to vape.

Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I appreciate that; those were the words of the NHS trusts themselves when they talked about positive decisions. We cannot always be sure exactly why someone made that decision, but we have to hope in the first instance that that move away from smoking would turn into vaping and, ultimately, into a smoke-free generation.

I am minded to tighten the wording of my amendment on Report to ensure that the vending machines are in those mental health units for the purpose of facilitating smoke-free policies and smoking cessation, because I do not necessarily want nurses and those working in those units to be exposed to any unnecessary products. When we are dealing with addiction, we all appreciate how difficult it is, and I want to ensure that a process is in place that means that we deal with both the mental health issues patients are dealing with and the addiction in a suitable and balanced fashion.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I know my hon. Friend’s heart is in a good place when she thinks about how we can protect individual mental health patients who also have an addiction to nicotine. She said that having no vapes on the hospital site could lead to patients taking up smoking, but there are of course no cigarettes on the hospital site either. I do not support the idea that the removal of one product will automatically lead to the use of another unavailable product.

If a member of the Committee, for example, wanted to leave the room now and go and get some vapes, they would need to leave the House, go and find a shop, and purchase them, and the same is true of an average patient: they would have to leave their home, find a shop, buy their vapes and come home again. The availability of a vaping vending machine on a ward in a mental health hospital would make vapes much more available to an individual and much more proximal than they would be under normal circumstances, which may lead to a greater consumption of nicotine than would be the case if the vapes had to be accessed elsewhere.

As we have mentioned repeatedly, nicotine is a very addictive drug, and I will not reiterate that beyond saying that if one is in a hospital unit and unable to leave because one is on a section, and one is used to using nicotine, the cravings would be extremely unpleasant and the withdrawal could be very nasty indeed. With that in mind, we wish to ensure that those individuals are cared for, and I know that the Minister wants to ensure that they are cared for too, but I remind the Committee that other nicotine replacements are available.

Several treatments are available from shops and pharmacies to help to beat the addiction, and those are available on prescription to individuals currently residing in a mental health unit, voluntarily or otherwise. Essentially, they are nicotine replacement therapies, by which I mean a proper medicine, as opposed to a consumer product, that provides somebody with a low level of nicotine without the tar, carbon monoxide and other poisonous chemicals present in tobacco smoke. They help to reduce unpleasant withdrawal effects, such as bad moods and cravings, and may affect mental health treatment too. They can be bought from pharmacies and shops, but a doctor can prescribe them and NHS stop-smoking services can provide them, and they are available in a whole range of forms. There are skin patches that provide a slower release, chewing gum and little inhalators that look like a small plastic cigarette. There are tablets, oral strips, lozenges, and nasal and mouth sprays.

There is a huge variety of different nicotine replacement therapies. Some, such as the inhalators, gums and sprays, act quickly to provide nicotine, and some, such as the patches, release nicotine slowly. The treatment depends on the stage of craving and the stage of giving up that somebody is at, and on what is most suitable for them. Sometimes patients find that the best way to use nicotine replacement therapy is to have a low-dose patch that is worn all the time, with top-ups from a gum, inhalator or nasal spray if they have particular cravings. Treatment with such nicotine replacement therapy usually lasts eight to 12 weeks before the dose is reduced and eventually stopped.

Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

That is different from vaping, which seems to be a swap, rather than a swap to stop. A stop is less likely to occur with a vape that has cherry flavours and such like than it is with proper medical nicotine replacement therapy, which does not contain those added enticements. Nicotine replacements are available for children as well as adults, if there are paediatric patients, and also for pregnant and breastfeeding women. A doctor can advise on which is most suitable.

The chief executive of the Mental Health Foundation, Mark Rowland, gave evidence to the previous Bill Committee on the issue of mental health patients and the effects of nicotine. He said:

“I was saying earlier on that this myth about smoking appeasing the symptoms of anxiety and stress does not come about by accident. It has been purported by the tobacco industry. The tobacco industry has deliberately commissioned research into the proposed impacts of smoking, looking for some sort of consequence for relieving long-term stress. You are absolutely right that it is not just a myth, but a pernicious myth, because it does exactly the opposite. The only thing that smoking does is relieve the immediate symptoms of nicotine withdrawal, deepening the addiction. We know now that it exacerbates the symptoms of poor mental health across the population, particularly for common mental health disorders, as well as serious mental illness. We now see that there is a causal relationship between smoking and mental health.”––[Official Report, Tobacco and Vapes Public Bill Committee, 1 May 2024; c. 114-115, Q176.]

On the basis of that and other evidence, I would say that individuals who have mental health problems need, if anything, greater protection from the nicotine and tobacco industry rather than exemptions and fewer protections. I will therefore not support my hon. Friend’s amendment 96, however well intentioned it is, but I will support the vending machines clause and the associated clause 78, which makes similar provision for Northern Ireland.

Jack Rankin (Conservative, Windsor)

I supported clauses 10 and 11 because I agree with the Government that under no circumstances should children be taking up vaping. I was heartened by the Minister’s comments on the principle of clause 10, the general point about evidence and balance when it came to vaping, and treating vaping differently from cigarettes and tobacco products.

However, I cannot quite go along with the Government on clause 12, because there they have the balance slightly wrong. I accept that vape vending machines should be prohibited, for the same reason that tobacco and cigarette vending machines were prohibited: vending machines cannot provide for age verification. That balance is well struck. However, I do not support the related measure for nicotine product vending machines. The Minister may seek to correct me, but I am not aware that any of the products described by the shadow Minister, such as nicotine patches and gum, is used recreationally or is attractive to children.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.