Tobacco and Vapes Bill
Public Bill Committee, 7 January 2025.
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Good morning, everyone. Before we begin, I have a couple of preliminary announcements: Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members emailed their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.co.uk; please switch electronic devices to silent; and teas and coffees are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. Given the time available, I hope that we can take those matters formally, without a debate. I call the Minister to move the programme motion, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Copies of written evidence will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Committee members by email.
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
We are now sitting in public again and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start putting questions to the witnesses, do any Members wish to make declarations of interest in connection with the Bill?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
I am an NHS consultant paediatrician and a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.
Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
My mother has some shareholdings in British American Tobacco, but that links to my parents’ having worked for Imperial Tobacco 50 years ago.
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
I am an officer of the responsible vaping all-party parliamentary group.
Zubir Ahmed (Labour, Glasgow South West)
I declare an interest as an NHS transplant and vascular surgeon. My wife is a lung cancer doctor.
Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)
I declare an interest as a public health consultant and a member of the British Medical Association.
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
I declare an interest as a practising pharmacist. [Interruption.]
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
I cannot hear everything because of that noise, but I am co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health.
Jim Dickson (Labour, Dartford)
I declare an interest as vice chair of the APPG on smoking and health.
Examination of Witnesses
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Sorry about the distracting noise; we are trying to sort that out.
We will begin by hearing oral evidence from Professor Sir Chris Whitty, chief medical officer for England; Sir Francis Atherton, chief medical officer for Wales; Professor Sir Michael McBride, chief medical officer for Northern Ireland, who will participate via Zoom; and Professor Sir Gregor Ian Smith, chief medical officer for Scotland. We have until 10.25 am for this panel.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I thank the witnesses for coming along; we are interested to hear what you have to say about this Bill. For some time, I have been particularly concerned about children vaping. How will the restrictions on vapes in this Bill, particularly on colours, flavours and accessibility, help to reduce their appeal and accessibility to children?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
I apologise, but I think people are struggling to hear over the noise; I certainly am. Could everyone enunciate more clearly and speak a little louder?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Thank you; that is helpful. My other question is about the difference between indoor and outdoor exposure to smoke. In this country, we have had laws preventing smoking in certain indoor spaces for many years now. How does exposure to smoke inside differ from exposure to it outside? Imagine sitting next to someone smoking on a park bench and someone smoking at a neighbouring table in a restaurant—what are the comparative health risks between those two?
Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q You mentioned that 88% of the population do not smoke, and the numbers are now declining. Can I ask why you supported a generational ban as opposed to raising the age from 18 to 21 or even 25? It is predominantly younger people whom we want to stop smoking.
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
We cannot hear; we will come back to you in a moment.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Good morning, CMOs. I would like to ask about the additions to the Bill; it is of course a reincarnation, as Professor Whitty says, of an earlier Bill from the previous Government, although we have sought to go further. In your professional opinion, what impact will the additions to the Bill have in terms of public health benefits for the four nations?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Ministers and officials have worked really hard, across the four nations, to put together a piece of legislation that is relevant to all four nations. How important do you think it is that the Bill extends powers and responsibilities on public health across the four nations?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q I turn to two criticisms of the Bill raised on Second Reading. We have already touched on some of the libertarian arguments, but I would like to know whether you think the issue of choice is addressed by the Bill. Do you have any sympathy with the libertarian argument, or do you think that the Bill—tackling tobacco and child vaping—is something that the libertarian argument does not stand up against?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Sorry, Sir Chris, but before we go further, I am trying to establish whether Sir Michael McBride has contact with us yet. If you can speak, Sir Michael, then we will know whether we have connection. It is as simple as that, really.
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Q That is fine; we now have connection with mission control. Sir Chris, do you want to finish up?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Sir Michael, now that we have a connection with you, do you have any observations or comments to make in relation to any of the points that have been raised?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
I will go to Gregory Stafford first, and then I will move over to the Government side.
Gregory Stafford (Conservative, Farnham and Bordon)
Do you have any concerns about the impact of the Bill on vapes as a smoking cessation tool? As my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham said, vaping in children is abhorrent, and I am glad that the Bill is addressing that, but how can we ensure that, as a cessation tool, vapes remain part of the panoply of options for smokers who are trying to give up?Q
Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)
Q My question is around inequalities. How effective or otherwise do you think the Bill will be in reducing inequalities? Are there any areas of the UK that have specific challenges related to tackling smoking prevalence that you would like to highlight?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q Thank you for the evidence submissions so far. In your opinion, will the Bill’s restriction of flavours for vaping products prevent the appeal to children and ex-smokers, if they can no longer access such products?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q Comparatively, how addictive is nicotine in tobacco and vapes compared with other products? I seem to remember that it is harder to get off nicotine than methadone. Is that true?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q It is clear, from the comments made about display and advertising, that child vaping is an issue that needs to be tackled; I think it is an issue that many of our constituents and many people in the country recognise. Especially for adult smokers, do you believe that there will be any impact from the display and packaging restrictions on the effectiveness of vapes as a tobacco cessation tool?
Zubir Ahmed (Labour, Glasgow South West)
Q Thank you, Sir Chris—your anecdote about the vascular war resonates strongly with me as a practising vascular surgeon; many of my patients leave hospital with fewer legs than when they entered. The comment I want to make is on the chronic disease burden. As you all know, there is a rising epidemic of chronic disease in our country, and it will probably require various public health measures to get back under control. I wonder if I could ask you to comment on how you feel this legislation might impact on the chronic disease burden on the NHS going forward, not only in the short term but in the long term?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
I am sorry, Sir Chris. Just for the purposes of timekeeping, which is my job, we have about 20 minutes left and five people wish to ask questions, so can we keep the questions as tight as possible, and within reason the answers as well?
Jim Dickson (Labour, Dartford)
Q May I ask a question about some of the arguments from tobacco companies for heated products to be excluded from the tobacco regulations and the Bill—and presumably therefore the age of sale regulations. Would you have a view on whether that is a sensible proposal?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Sir Michael, you were nodding. Did you have any comment to make?
Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)
This is a question specifically on vapes. You mentioned earlier that because it is a new product, there is a lack of scientific consensus on the medium to long-term effects. Are we going to see publications around this over the next five to 10 years—maybe sooner? Presumably there have been clinical trials on these products. Can you tell me perhaps the difference between the two? I accept fully the tobacco legislation; my concern is the evidence base for the vapes, and the potential for a cobra effect, where we might see people go back to tobacco-based products because they are cheaper to purchase. The second piece of evidence for this is that in the Regulatory Policy Committee report it says that it expects a 12% reduction in vaping, in a similar trend to tobacco-based products. Is that a reasonable assumption, given that there has been a long-standing public awareness of tobacco, versus perhaps a lack of awareness around the complexities of vaping productsQ ?
Alex Barros-Curtis (Labour, Cardiff West)
Building on what my colleague and yourselves are talking about, specifically on vaping, I am trying to drill into your confidence levels on the flexibility in the legislation, which you have been talking about. As has been indicated—you have all talked very eloquently about it—there is not as much of an evidence base when it comes to vaping, for all the reasons you have outlined. If we think of a new car or a new product in the market, it will go through a lot of testing before it is put out there, in order to ensure it is safe. I recognise that in that regard, the genie is out of the bottle. However, the evidence underpinning vaping, as regards the integrity and safety of public health, is not as rigorous. Therefore, should the Bill not go further in terms of putting in more stringent requirements in that regard, until we have confidence in the impact on public health across all our four nationsQ ?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
We have one more question, which I am afraid is probably the last one to this set of witnesses, from Liz Jarvis.
Liz Jarvis (Liberal Democrat, Eastleigh)
I would like to understand more about how you think the gradual change in age of sale will affect tobacco and vaping behaviour, compared with increasing the age of sale in one go. If a child has an older sibling or someone who may be bringing the products into the home, or has older friends, I do not see how this will change the behaviour or the desire to try the productsQ .
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
I have about three minutes left, so I will ask Mary Kelly Foy to ask a very brief question with a very short answer, because we will be finishing spot on 10.25 am.
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Q Do you have any view on how restricting vapes in public places, which is obviously a very welcome power, should be implemented so that it does not deter smokers from switching to vapes and they do not relapse back into smoking cigarettes?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
I am afraid that that draws this particular session to a close. I thank our witnesses, Sir Chris Whitty, Sir Francis Atherton, Sir Gregor Smith and Sir Michael McBride, for their attendance and for their helpful contributions, and I thank Members for their helpful questions. Thank you very much.
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
We will now hear evidence from Hazel Cheeseman, chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health; Sheila Duffy, chief executive of ASH Scotland; Suzanne Cass, chief executive of ASH Wales; and Naomi Thompson, health improvement manager at Cancer Focus Northern Ireland. We have until 10.55 am for this panel. I call the first Member to ask a question—the Minister.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Good morning, all. As we know, this is a resurrected Bill from the previous Government, with additional measures. How do you think it compares with the previous iteration?Q
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
What impact have tobacco control measures had over time to date, and what impact do you expect this Bill to have in addition?Q
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Let me ask a question of Suzanne Cass. We heard from the CMO for Wales in the session before that the extension of smoke-free to outdoor places—such as outside hospitals, in playgrounds and outside schools—is already in place in Wales. What lessons do we need to learn from that?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
I call Caroline Johnson—apologies; I should have called you before the Minister.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q The current advice, which was reiterated by the chief medical officer in the last session, is that if you do not vape, do not vape, but that if you smoke, vaping may be a better alternative. How will the measures in the Bill make it easier or harder for that message to be conveyed to the public who smoke?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q How do you think the Bill will address health inequalities? We have heard that smoking is more prevalent among poorer individuals than among richer individuals. Will the Bill help address that?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q Do you think the introduction of a generational ban on smoking could cause an increase in the use of other nicotine products, such as vapes or smoke-free tobacco?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Can I just, as is my job, remind everybody that we are finishing at 10.55 am, which is in about 15 minutes or thereabouts? I have six people who wish to ask questions, so can I ask that the questions and responses are as tight as possible? Thanks.
Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)
Q Thank you so much to our witnesses for being here. I just want to take you back to a conversation you were having with a previous questioner about smoking cessation in hospitals. Could you give us your thoughts about vaping being available in hospitals, to allow people in hospitals who are quitting smoking, or who want to continue quitting, to continue vaping? Our CMOs talked about a smoke-free place being a vape-free place. What are your thoughts about vaping in hospitals—where it is a smoke-free place—and about access to vapes?
Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q I want to follow up on that point, because clause 12 of the Bill will actually include a ban on vending machines for vaping, but I know that there have been mental health trusts that have said that, actually, they would call for those to be exempted. Is that one of the exemptions that you would perhaps go for, and actually allow those vending machines in hospitals?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Q I notice in your submission that you have a recommendation:
“The government should make good on their pledge to publish a ‘roadmap to a smokefree country’…with a strong focus on tackling inequalities.”
I am from the north-east region, where we have high deprivation and high smoking prevalence. It is the only region that has a clear vision—if you like—and declaration from Fresh and the directors of public health for how to achieve a smoke-free country. Could you explain a bit more why we need that vision and that strategy going forward?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q By restricting vaping products in this Bill in the same ways that tobacco products are currently restricted—be that packaging, display or potentially flavourings, as we discussed with the CMOs earlier—do you think that this will lead to greater misconceptions by the public and, quite crucially, current smokers about the relative harm between the two products?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Thank you. I am afraid this will probably be the last question before the next panel of witnesses. Tristan Osborne, we have about two and a half minutes left.
Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q To go back to my earlier question on product displacement, which you have alluded to, you said there is concurrent evidence that people who are smoking are also vaping. Is there any evidence that there might be a cobra effect whereby, because we are banning disposable vapes, we are increasing the price of vaping, so you might then see people return to the product you were originally trying to get them off? Has there been any conversation in this space around what the evidence would be to show that the legislation is a success, beyond the overall reduction of smoking?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
I do apologise, but I have to bring the session to a close as the time has been used up. I am sorry for interrupting. I thank our witnesses Hazel Cheeseman, Sheila Duffy, Suzanne Cass and Naomi Thompson for their evidence, and I am grateful for the questions that have been asked.
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
We have the third panel of witnesses from now until 11.25 am. We will hear evidence from Dr Ian Walker, the executive director of policy at Cancer Research UK, and Sarah Sleet, the chief executive officer of Asthma and Lung UK.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q What effect do you think vapes have on the health and the lungs of young people? Do you think the Bill will help to reduce the take-up of vaping in children?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Smoking is a huge cause of cancers. Do you expect that this Bill will reduce the number of cases of cancer and increase the age of people who get cancer across the country?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Can you tell us about the evidence of the impacts of second-hand smoking on cancer in your case, Dr Walker, and on asthma and lung conditions in your case, Sarah? What difference do you think that the measures outlined in the Bill will have on those conditions?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q The Bill takes powers to introduce restrictions on vaping, which are obviously subject to consultation after the Bill receives Royal Assent. What factors do you think will need to be taken into consideration as part of that further consultation?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q In a nutshell, how important is it that the measures in the Bill are passed?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q Is there any research into passive vaping risks to bystanders, who do not have a choice if someone is vaping next to them?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q Do you believe that there is a substantial health impact on people working in certain sectors who unavoidably encounter second-hand smoke in the course of their employment? What impact will the measures in the Bill have on that?
Alex Barros-Curtis (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Some of the evidence that has been submitted referred to the gateway effect and how there is perhaps not the evidence to suggest that there is a transition from one to the other. Are your organisations still concerned about the increase in vaping among groups who have not previously smoked cigarettes?
Jim Dickson (Labour, Dartford)
Q Thank you for all your work to advocate for smoke-free legislation. Can I ask you about differential smoking rates across the country? Which parts of the country are likely to benefit most from this legislation as we see a decline in smoking rates and in tobacco use more generally?
Peter Dowd (Labour, Bootle)
Thank you very much. As there are no other questions from Members, let me thank the witnesses, Ian Walker from Cancer Research UK and Sarah Sleet from Asthma and Lung UK.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Andrew Gwynne wishes to move an amendment to the programme motion.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
I beg to move a manuscript amendment:
That the Order of the Committee of 7 January 2023 be varied by leaving out from “Aneurin Bevan University Health Board” to end of table and insert—
Tuesday 7 January
Until no later than 3.10 pm
Professor Linda Bauld OBE, Bruce and John Usher Chair in Public Health, University of Edinburgh
Tuesday 7 January
Until no later than 3.30 pm
National Trading Standards
Tuesday 7 January
Until no later than 3.50 pm
British Retail Consortium
Tuesday 7 January
Until no later than 4.10 pm
Department for Education’s Secondary Headteacher Reference Group
Tuesday 7 January
Until no later than 4.30 pm
Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency
Tuesday 7 January
Until no later than 5.00 pm
Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health; Royal College of General Practitioners
Tuesday 7 January
Until no later than 5.20 pm
Department of Health and Social Care
This amendment is in order to accommodate witness availability. It would take Professor Linda Bauld at 2.40 pm and move the witnesses representing the royal colleges to start at 4.30 pm. This will add an extra 10 minutes to the last two panels, concluding oral evidence at 5.20 pm.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I welcome the panel again, although I was not here for this morning’s sitting. We will now resume by hearing oral evidence from David Fothergill, chairman of the Local Government Association’s Community Wellbeing Board, Professor Tracy Daszkiewicz, executive director of public health and strategic partnerships and vice president of the faculty of public health at Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, and Alison Challenger, tobacco and vapes lead at the Association of Directors of Public Health.
For this panel, we have until 2.40 pm. The floor is now open to any members of the Committee who wish to ask questions, but we would traditionally ask the Opposition spokesperson to ask the first question, so, Dr Caroline Johnson, the floor is yours.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Thank you, Sir Mark, and welcome to the witnesses; thank you for coming today.Q39
My first question is: do the local authorities have the resources they need to enforce these measures, if brought in? If they do not, what further resources do they need?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q You have talked about time. Time can mean lots of different things—weeks, months, years. What sort of timeframe do you have in mind?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Thank you; that is really helpful. What about the new licensing scheme that local government needs to bring in? Do you feel you have the resources to do that? Will it give you the discretion you need in terms of the location of such sitesQ ?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Do you believe the measures in the Bill to prevent vapes appealing to children are likely to workQ ?
Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)
Thank you for coming to give evidence this afternoon. As we have two of my fellow public health colleagues giving evidence, could I ask what the general response to the Bill has been from the public health community? Are there any significant suggestions from the public health community of areas that we should consider furtherQ ?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q I thank the LGA for the support and engagement that we have had in drawing up the measures. Do you think that the Bill gives local authorities the right tools in relation smoking and vaping? How can we best work with colleagues in local government to get this right and ensure that it is workable on the ground?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Of course local government has been at the forefront of enforcing existing tobacco measures. What lessons can we learn from the experience of local government in terms of enforcement to date?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Professor Daszkiewicz—I hope I have pronounced that right—we heard earlier from the chief medical officer of Wales and from representatives of Action on Smoking and Health Wales about the extension of outdoor smoke-free spaces in Wales. What can we learn from the experiences of Wales in extending to schools, hospitals and children’s playgrounds?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q The measures in the Bill include the introduction of a licensing scheme for England, for Wales and for Northern Ireland. Scotland already has its own arrangements, which the Bill will seek to extend. What would you like to see from a licensing scheme?
Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)
My first question is on the enforcement element. We have had some correspondence and feedback that the £200 level is too low. I wonder whether councils or the Local Government Association have a view on the appropriate level. Conversely, if the level were too high, it would potentially damage high streets by loss of trade and shops closing because of fear. Is there a worry in the local government community that we could see high street shops closing as a result of enforcement? Again, those are some of the comments coming out of the correspondence we have receivedQ .
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Do you believe that the generational smoking ban might cause an increase in the use of other nicotine products such as vapes, smoke-free tobacco or even illicit productsQ ?
Danny Chambers (Liberal Democrat, Winchester)
You might not have the answer here, but do you have a rough estimate of what it costs the NHS financially to deal with passive smoking and second-hand smoking every yearQ ?
Danny Chambers (Liberal Democrat, Winchester)
Q I am assuming that from a public health point of view, looking at the epidemiology, certain communities and demographics will be more greatly affected by this. Is that something that you are mindful of? How do you see the Bill changing health inequalities?
Jim Dickson (Labour, Dartford)
This is to Councillor Fothergill. Are there any circumstances you can envisage where local enforcement would not be enough and the Secretary of State would need to utilise the powers granted in the Bill under clauses 130 and 131 to intervene?Q
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Can I ask a question to all of you? We know that the Bill will go a long way towards reducing health inequalities. In more deprived areas, which have the highest prevalence of smoking, will the Bill also have an impact on the economics of local communities?Q
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q We have touched on local variations. How do you think local variations should take into account the small variations in health inequalities that exist in different areas? You gave an example of a shop being the only shop in a village, but if that village was also an area of high deprivation, how should that affect the outcome?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence today, and we will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witness
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We will now hear oral evidence from Professor Linda Bauld, who is a Bruce and John Usher professor of public health and co-head of the centre for population health sciences at the University of Edinburgh. Thank you for being flexible and appearing earlier in today’s session. For this panel we have until 3.10 pm. If Members want to refer to Professor Bauld’s contribution and evidence, it will appear further on in your packs.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Thank you for coming today. You have been monitoring and evaluating tobacco control policy and stop smoking strategies for many years. Earlier this year, you said that you thought a variety of things could go wrong with the implementation of the tobacco and vapes legislation. We all want to see people’s health improve, so we want the legislation to be successful in achieving that aim. Could you explain what you meant by that and what areas you think could go wrong?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Another question I had was about the research you have done into the effect on pregnant women and children. We heard a little bit on that from the chief medical officers this morning. What effect do smoking and vaping have on the unborn baby and children?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q My final question is about the verification measures and Challenge 25, which we have heard has been successful in ensuring that children under the age of 18 are not sold such products.
I had a look at the evidence for how good people are at establishing how old somebody is. We are often told, “Don’t try to guess someone’s age—you can get yourself into a lot of hot water by doing that.” The research I found online showed that we are remarkably not very good at establishing how old somebody is. We are quite good at establishing if someone is of a similar age to ourselves, but beyond that, it is not that easy. What information do you have on the research in that field?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q The last time I was asked for ID —when I was trying to buy a bottle of champagne, an orchid and a punnet of strawberries in a major supermarket—I was 38, so it would seem we are not very good at working out how old people are, or some people are not. We are going to ask people to decide not just if someone is younger than 25, but potentially if they are younger than 45 or 35. Is that going to be difficult for people to do?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Welcome, Professor Bauld. What impact have tobacco control measures had on smoking rates over time? What impact do you expect this Bill to have?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q In an earlier answer that you gave to the shadow Minister, you talked about the two priorities of preventing new smoking and tackling youth vaping, alongside supporting the 6 million to quit. The Bill seeks to reduce youth vaping. How do you think we best achieve that while not deterring adult smokers from quitting?
Liz Jarvis (Liberal Democrat, Eastleigh)
Do you think the Bill goes far enough to protect children and young people from the harmful effects of tobacco and vapingQ ?
Zubir Ahmed (Labour, Glasgow South West)
Thank you, Professor Bauld, for sharing your extensive expertise with us today. I want to explore the intersection between poverty and health, and where you think the Bill will have an impact. We know that health outcomes are poorer where there are pockets of high deprivation, as in many areas of Scotland, including my constituency of Glasgow South West. What are your thoughts, both quantifiable and general, as to the impact of this legislation on those children and on those particularly deprived communitiesQ ?
Danny Chambers (Liberal Democrat, Winchester)
Q Dr Ahmed asked almost word for word what I was going to ask, but from a population medicine point of view, do you have a rough estimate of how much smoking is costing the NHS and how much would be saved if the measure was implemented properly?
Danny Chambers (Liberal Democrat, Winchester)
That is well articulated. Thank you.
Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)
Q Thank you for coming along this afternoon. You mentioned the New Zealand case. Could you talk briefly, in case anybody does not know, about what happened and why the standards were dropped? What learnings might we take from that for our legislation?
John Whitby (Labour, Derbyshire Dales)
There are obviously going to be future health benefits and financial benefits but, realistically, based on what happened in New Zealand, how quickly are we going to feel the benefits, public health-wise and financially? It is going to take years for us to realise the benefits of the Bill.Q
Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q I have read some of your research from Edinburgh and have two questions relating to it. First, you said that in the research you undertook two years ago 40% of smokers thought that vaping was more harmful than cigarettes. What is the evidence base for that? Based on my understanding of the industry, and from elsewhere, that seems to be quite a high proportion.
Secondly, linking to the economic argument you made earlier, you are right that deprivation is key. There is more smoking in deprived communities. I have asked all the witnesses this question. Is there a concern that because of the concurrency of people vaping and smoking, the people who are doing both will move to an economically cheaper option—that is, pick up smoking again because vapes might become more expensive because of other measures that are introduced? Has that concern been raised in academia?
Alex Barros-Curtis (Labour, Cardiff West)
Thank you, Professor Bauld, for your evidence today. Reflecting on your wealth of experience in this area and your analysis of the Bill—with comparisons to our international partners and counterparts—are there any aspects of the Bill that you think could be further improved, noting, obviously, the difference between the previous Government’s version and this version? We heard one example from the previous panel, who talked about the fixed penalty notices. Is £200 too low a number? You may want to comment on that. But, generally, on the wider parts of the Bill, is there anything you think could be improved on to deliver the public health and other benefits that we have espoused in this session?Q
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Can I ask people to speak into the microphone if they can? We are often finding it difficult to pick things up, and the volume is on maximum as it is. Thanks.
Alex Barros-Curtis (Labour, Cardiff West)
That is really helpful. Thank you.
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q We have spoken a bit about the gradual change and about that preventing uptake, but how does the gradual change in the age of sale affect the impact on tobacco and vaping behaviour, compared with increasing the age of sale in one go? That is based on comments we have heard about the difficulty in asking people’s ages at 34 or 35—I think most people have no problem knowing I am old enough for most things nowadays.
Taiwo Owatemi (Labour, Coventry North West)
Q We have spoken briefly about this. Are you concerned that introducing a generational ban on cigarettes might cause other forms of tobacco use to increase among younger generations?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I call Jim Dickson.
Jim Dickson (Labour, Dartford)
I am fine, Sir Mark.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witness, Professor Bauld, for her contribution. We will move on to the sixth panel of witnesses.
Examination of Witnesses
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We will now hear oral evidence from Lord Michael Bichard, chair of National Trading Standards, and Wendy Martin, director of National Trading Standards. We have until 3.30 pm with this panel. As you can see, because both the earlier panels finished earlier than expected, we have a fair bit of extra time for these two witnesses, if they wish to use it or if Members wish to ask more questions.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Thank you for giving evidence this afternoon. Do you think that the penalties proposed by the legislation are too high or too low, or are they sufficient to act as a deterrent? What are your thoughts on that?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Wendy, do you have any thoughts—
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I do not think the microphones are working terribly well today. Wendy, do you have any thoughts on the size of the fines?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Then you welcome the concept of being able to say, “This is the first offence; this is an educational opportunity, rather than an opportunity for a penalty.”?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Can I ask you about the training available to staff and shops who are being asked to comply with this? We have heard of Challenge 25, where people are told, “If you think someone’s under 25, challenge them just to be on the safe side, because they might be under 18.”, and I have been challenged myself right to the age of 38 on such issues. In the event that someone makes a mistake, and you think they are reputable and genuine and it was just a mistake, and you want to provide them with training, is there training in how to recognise someone’s age? We are not going to just ask whether someone looks young; we are going to be starting to challenge people under 30, or under 35. It can be more challenging to identify how old people in middle age are compared with younger people. Is there any training available for people, in the event that they make mistakes?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q But if you are asking people to ask someone under 30 for their ID, for example, is there any training available to enable young—or old—shopkeepers to identify which people are likely to be under 30? Evidence suggests that people are quite bad at doing that.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Lord Bichard, you talked at the beginning of your remarks about resources. Do you think that trading standards have enough resources to implement the regulations and enforce them?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Thank you, that is a really helpful answer. We know that vapes are very difficult to dispose of and to recycle.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q I have a very similar question to the shadow Minister’s. She asked whether you are confident that trading standards will have the resources to enforce the measures in this Bill. My question is: are you confident that trading standards will have the right powers to enforce the measures in this Bill?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q One of the issues that came up on Second Reading and in the previous iteration of this Bill is that some people question whether moving to a smoke-free generation policy risks a growth in the black market and illicit trade. Does that accord with your experience of the illicit tobacco market and previous tobacco control measures?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Finally from me, in the previous iteration of this Bill, the fixed penalty notices were to be set at £100. There was criticism and concern from trading standards representatives, who advocated for increasing the value of the fixed penalty notice. Notwithstanding your answer to the shadow Minister’s question, do you think that doubling the fixed penalty notice to £200 strikes a better balance?
Sarah Bool (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
To build on a point my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham made a moment ago, the Scottish Grocers’ Federation has indicated in some of the information it sent to us that, in its latest crime report, the most prevalent cause of threatening behaviour in stores is the refusal of sale and asking for proof of age. I am concerned about that rise in retail crime and what more can be done. I know that the education piece is needed, but is any thought being given to how we can further prevent some of these problems?Q
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q Thinking specifically about vapes, do you feel that this Bill goes far enough in providing tougher regulations and more resources for enforcement, while balancing the burden on businesses that probably have not had this level of regulation?
Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q I have two questions. First, on digital taxation, I understand that under the previous Government, in March, vapes were to become digitally registered—with a digital tax—which should make it easier to identify fraud and misaligned products effectively. Is there any commentary around the implementation of that? Have you seen that come forward? Are you working with HMRC on the sort of digital tax regime around that? Do you think that that is important, in your job, to reduce fraudulent products?
Secondly, in the United States, you can have products with up to 60 mg-worth of nicotine; that is a standard product in the United States. In the UK, it is 20 mg, or significantly less. Is there an awareness within trading standards of just how much we are potentially out of kilter with some of the key markets that we are aligned to? Our limit is significantly lower than those of other major economies, so do you think that we might therefore have a problem with products perhaps coming in from other sources that are not the same as tobacco? Is that a concern for your Department?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q Do you see any challenges in the enforcement of the advertising and display of vapes, in shops especially—in what we would class as more generic stores, rather than bespoke venues?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q Thank you. My second question digs into the illicit online vape market that you referred to. Is the issue more the structure of enforcement that you were discussing, or do you have any concern about online retailers’ age gating policies?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Q We heard from a previous witness that young people say that most of the advertising for vapes is in the shops. The Bill will bring in powers to regulate vapes, and that includes advertising. How do you envisage that the ban on advertising will be enforced on the high street, locally and in small shops?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Q I was basing that on what you said at the beginning—that trading standards had been cut by 50%—so I know that local authorities will struggle. I also know that although a penalty has been put in place, six months later that same shop will be doing exactly the same thing again. I guess the question is about the resourcing of trading standards—
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
One final quick question from Jim Dickson, before we have to go on to the next panel.
Jim Dickson (Labour, Dartford)
Q Tobacco companies, as we know, collect a pretty rich dataset on their sales. Do you think that requesting, or placing in legislation an obligation on them to publish, that sales data would be a useful tool for trading standards?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I thank both panellists for their evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witness
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We will now hear oral evidence from Inga Becker-Hansen, who is policy adviser for retail products at the British Retail Consortium. For this panel we have until 3.50 pm.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Thank you for coming this afternoon. What do you think will be the challenges facing business in implementing the new age of sale regulations?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Yes; what are the challenges in implementing the new regulations?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Can I ask about staff training? Once the legislation goes through, which we expect it to do, retailers up and down the country will need to ensure that their staff are properly trained to follow the law. One of the challenges they will have—not initially, but as it goes forward—is identifying how old individuals are. Are you aware of any training that helps staff members to identify which people are under, say, 30 or 40 years old?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Could I ask everybody to speak louder, please? The microphones are not very good at picking up the sound.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q One of my concerns is that it is quite difficult to identify how old somebody is. People can get themselves into trouble with the law by not being very good at identifying someone’s age, and it is going to get more difficult as this goes forward. Moving away from the age of sale, how will the licensing scheme affect retailers, particularly small retailers?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I call the Minister.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Welcome to the Committee. Can you outline the lessons from the introduction of previous tobacco control policies, for example on age of sale change, which we can consider as we introduce the measures in the Bill?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q On proof of age and identification, which do you think is more complex? Is it having to work out, on a daily basis, whether somebody is over the age of 18 from their date of birth, or is it just being able to see that they were born after 1 January 2009?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q I am not sure whether you understood the question that I was asking. If I have a piece of ID that shows clearly that I was born after 1 January 2009, that is very simple to understand. If I say I was born on 4 June 1974, it is obvious that I am over 18, but if it was 2004 rather than 1974, you would have to calculate in your head what my age is.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q From their ID, you would.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q How can Government best support retailers to implement the changes in the Bill?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q I can assure you that there will be consultation with the sector. What would you want to see from a licensing scheme? Are there any lessons from supporting the implementation of alcohol licensing, for example?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q We talked a little bit about the new licensing scheme’s impact on retailers, and you have talked about a level playing field. You say that large companies should have one licence across multiple branches. How does that balance the risk that these measures will disproportionately impact small and independent retailers, which will have to apply for a licence for every individual premises?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q From my point of view, if I had one shop, I would have a larger burden with an individual licence. If I had 1,000 shops, I would have the same burden. That does not seem to balance on the proportionality of it. Do you think the best way forward is to have one licence for large groups and one licence for small shops?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q I can understand how it would increase complexity for a large retail organisation, but I cannot understand how it will individually affect the confidence of an individual consumer who goes into that shop.
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q Would you like to explain how it would affect the confidence of the individual going into that shop?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q The only thing I would say to that is I can go into a small Tesco and it sells different things from the other small Tescos.
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q Do you believe the measures in the Bill,such as restrictions on advertisement, display and flavours, will prevent e-cigarettes from appealing to children?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q Could you articulate some of the challenges that the BRC may face with the restrictions on advertisement, display and flavours?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q It is clear that good retailers have an interest in making sure age verification schemes are followed. At the moment, there is clearly a concern about child vaping. I am obviously not asking you to comment from a public health angle, but do you think the problem of child vape access is coming predominantly from proxy sales—somebody over the age of 18 purchasing a vape, a tobacco product or another nicotine product and giving it to someone under the age of 18—or from under-age sales?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
The final question is from John Whitby.
John Whitby (Labour, Derbyshire Dales)
Q Do you think there is anything missing from the Bill that would be beneficial for retailers?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We can squeeze one more in if anybody wants to ask a question. I thank the witness for giving evidence.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We will now hear oral evidence from Matthew Shanks, who is the chair of the Secondary Headteacher Reference Group and chief executive of the Education South West multi-academy trust. For this panel, we have until 4.10 pm.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Good afternoon and welcome. We have heard in the past from headteachers and others about the challenges they have faced in schools with vaping in particular. Can you give us an update on the effects of vaping on children, in terms of school behaviour management, and on their education?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Is there an effect on their concentration or behaviour in class, for example?
It is difficult to prove what is in vapes. Again, there are instances of vapes containing illegal substances, but that is difficult to prove, because of their small size and where they can be secreted or hidden. There is evidence out there of drugs being contained in vapes—snus or Spice in the vapes—being quite addictive. Any kind of addiction leads to misbehaviour, particularly if you put that into secondary schools or among older children in primary schools.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Thank you—that is very helpful. We have heard another thing in the past—in fact, a teacher at one of my children’s schools, produced what looked like a small, pink highlighter pen. To all intents and purposes, it was a pink highlighter pen, but it was actually a vape. It is not clear to me why that would be marketed at the average 40-year-old male smoker who wants to stop—or, indeed, at a 25-year-old female smoker. Why does the vape need to be shaped like a highlighter? That does not make sense to me. It feels as if that is deliberately marketed at children, because it is easy to conceal in a pencil case, and the teachers and parents cannot tell it is there. To what extent do you think that the flavourings, shape and colour of some of the products make them more attractive to very young children?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I agree with you on that. To what extent will the Bill help to resolve, or at least alleviate, the problem of children vaping?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I have one final quick question on detectors. Some schools have tried detector devices to pick up vape vapour that is not picked up by smoke detectors. What are your thoughts on those? Are they effective and have they been useful to schools?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Will this Bill help with that?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q The shadow Minister is absolutely right to mention highlighter pens. You mentioned pen drives. There are examples of vapes that look like mobile phones. There are examples of vapes that are concealed within the hood strings of hoodies, so kids sucking on their hood strings are often vaping. It is clear that the industry is being very malicious in its approach to marketing vapes, which is why the Bill introduces a ban on advertising and sponsorship. Do you think that will have a material impact on dissuading children and young people from vaping?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q In terms of other measures in the Bill, advertising and sponsorship is one side of it, but another aspect will be bringing in regulations on flavours and packaging, subject to the Bill receiving Royal Assent. Do you think that will have an impact on youth vaping?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Clearly, smoking rates have declined considerably in children and young people and, indeed, the wider population, but do you see the progressive age of sale for smoking as being another important tool to help to create a healthier generation of children and young people?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Looking at the number of Members who wish to ask questions and the amount of time that we have left, I ask Members to be short in their questions and the panellist to be short in his answers.
Liz Jarvis (Liberal Democrat, Eastleigh)
Q One thing that I have picked up from my conversations with youth workers and police is that children are being given vapes outside school. For example, if they are not at school for any reason or if they are particularly susceptible or vulnerable to other influences, they might be given them in the playgrounds or wherever. Obviously you have the issue that it can be a gateway to county lines as well. How do you think this Bill will support education, encouraging children to turn away from vaping, and should the Bill be backed by a public health awareness campaign aimed specifically at children and young people?
Beccy Cooper (Labour, Worthing West)
Q Thank you for coming along this afternoon. I want to hear a little more about the online issue—children purchasing vapes or perhaps being influenced to purchase vapes there. Given your experience as a headteacher and working in schools, how influential do you think the online environment is? Would you like to see the Bill develop more to look at that as it goes forward?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q You have listed a couple of bits, but do you think there are any further measures that would help to limit the appeal of vapes to children and young people?
Tristan Osborne (Labour, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q My question is about price. In this Bill, we are looking to ban disposable vapes, which, as a former teacher myself, I used to see in toilet bowls and other exciting locations in secondary schools, sadly. Do you think that that is going to have a major impact in the form of kids perhaps not being able to afford these products, and so we will see a reduction? Do you think that the price differential is going to be an important factor?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q I have a quick question about flavours and colourings. I am trying to understand the predominant issue with reusable vapes. I am quite surprised to hear that refillable vapes are not an issue in schools. Could you expand on that?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
I meant that I was pretty surprised that they are such a predominant issue. I would have presumed that disposable vapes were the predominant issue.
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q Can you expand on whether those are more accessed in the classroom through proxy sales, such as a parent purchasing it for them, or whether you are seeing refillable vapes purchased to the same degree as disposables out in the community?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q I completely recognise that and I understand the issues. My final question is around your assertion that there should be packaging similar to cigarettes. Do you believe that plain packaging would be an appropriate balance, considering that it may potentially deter people?
Euan Stainbank (Labour, Falkirk)
Q I think you have come back to my initial point about refillable vapes and a distinction between the way they are displayed in shops and how disposables are displayed. I am severely concerned that children are being presented with a wall of candy, but I see that being more predominantly disposable vapes—or highlighter pens, as they were described.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I thank Matthew Shanks for his evidence today. It has been very interesting and stimulating for those of us who do not know much about vapes. I am sure we will take a lot of what he said into consideration in our deliberations.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Now that things have settled a bit, I welcome Dr Laura Squire OBE, from whom we will now hear evidence. She is chief healthcare quality and access officer for the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. For this panel, we have until 4.30 pm, which is obviously 20 minutes.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Welcome to the Committee, and thank you for coming. I want to ask you about the approval process that vapes go through. People say, “This has MHRA approval,” or “This has an MHRA tick,” and they may therefore think it is safe because you have “medicines” in your title. Could you briefly lay out your processes for regulating items such as vapes for commercial sale? How does that differ from medical devices regulation, which is the larger part of your business?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q You have explained that they are very different roles: in one, there is a level of safety that is checked; in the other, the manufacturers just notify that they are following the basic level of rules. When a customer buys a product, do you think that the suggestion that it is MHRA-approved leads the customer to believe that there is some evidence that it has been medically checked in some way by some higher competent authority, when that actually has not happened? In fact, would it be better for some other organisation to do this work, or for there to be a different name when the lower-level process has taken place?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Welcome to the Committee, Dr Squire. I will ask two questions specifically about the notification scheme, which you very helpfully outlined to the Committee in your response to the shadow Minister. First, what do you think are the most pressing issues with the current notification scheme that you would like to see addressed in a new registration scheme?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q What do you see as the main differences between the current notification scheme and the scheme that the Bill creates powers to establish?
Taiwo Owatemi (Labour, Coventry North West)
Q What effect do you think the Bill will have on the number of vaping products that the MHRA will have to approve through its licensing route?
Taiwo Owatemi (Labour, Coventry North West)
Q Yes, for medicine licensing.
Taiwo Owatemi (Labour, Coventry North West)
Q May I ask one more question? What is the MHRA’s capacity to handle the increased workload that the new legislation will require?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q When we give a new medicine to somebody, we give them advice and explain what it is and what it is safe to do with it. When people get vapes, do they get the right level of information and advice about what that product actually is and about the risks?
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q I thought you said that there are no licensed products on the market?
Zubir Ahmed (Labour, Glasgow South West)
Q Thank you, Dr Squire, for being with us. The Royal College of Physicians has called for manufacturers to limit the production of toxic substances and for the MHRA to independently verify some of the contents of e-cigarettes. Do you think that that can be achieved through the measures in the Bill as it stands?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I think Mr Al-Hassan wants to come back in.
Sadik Al-Hassan (Labour, North Somerset)
Q Thank you, Chair. In a couple of your answers it seemed that you were almost putting the point that maybe a vape should be a medicinal product. Is that the view of the MHRA?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Are there any more questions to this panellist? If not, I thank Dr Squire on behalf of the Committee. I am sure that a lot of your evidence will be taken into consideration.
Examination of Witnesses
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
For this panel we have Professor Steve Turner, the president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, and Professor Sanjay Agrawal, the special adviser on tobacco at the Royal College of Physicians. We have until 4.50 pm for this panel.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Thank you and welcome. I reiterate that I am a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. My first question is about the medical harms of vaping. We know that these products are relatively new and that it took quite a long time to establish how harmful smoking was. What do we know about harms that vaping may cause to children who have never smoked?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q We have heard a bit today about the marketing of vapes and the flexibility of industry to maintain its market of nicotine-addicted people. Do you think that the Bill is sufficiently flexible? For example, we have seen nicotine pouches becoming more popular with children, and we have started to see them advertised in bright colours and flavours, such as groovy grape and witty spearmint, and in the same patterns that we saw with vaping, which have been described today. Is the Bill future-proof enough to stop those sorts of activities?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Professor Agrawal, do you have anything to contribute about the effects of vaping on older people?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I want to ask you about flavours, given your experience of people who are trying to quit. There has been some debate about restricting flavours, and how flavours entice children but, perhaps, help adults. When I first met somebody from the industry, I asked them about flavours and they told me that when somebody uses another quitting aid to stop smoking, they will use the quitting aid, then stop the quitting aid, and then they are not using any products, buying anything or making any revenue for the companies. However, when somebody has a choice of flavours, they do not just give up smoking; they transfer their addiction to another product, which they then to continue to buy because it is enjoyable to vape these different flavours and to choose different flavours at different times if they get bored. Is that something that you see in your clinical practice? How do vapes compare with nicotine patches, gums or other inhalation devices that just provide nicotine in terms of, first, giving up smoking and, secondly, persisting with a new habit?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q That leaves the Government with a difficult choice, does it not? At the moment, there are a whole plethora of flavours. You can make the descriptions boring very easily but, if you are going to choose a small range of flavours, the intent will presumably be to choose the ones containing those chemicals that are thought to be the least harmful. Is there evidence that would enable you to choose which flavours may, or may not, be less harmful?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Okay, but you do not have specific evidence that compares flavours. Say the popular flavours are cherry and raspberry—you do not have anything that says which is safer.
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q Welcome to the Committee, and I thank you both for your time. In answer to the shadow Minister, you have outlined some of the early impacts of vaping that we are seeing in patients. But I am interested in smoking—tobacco is a killer. Following on from the evidence this morning from the CMOs from across the UK, what impacts of smoking do you see in your patients—I include second-hand smoking in that analysis—and what difference do you think the measures in the Bill will make?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q The extension of smoke-free legislation to outdoor settings is of course subject to consultation, but in England we have made it very clear that we will be consulting on children’s playgrounds, schools and hospitals. Some have argued that the current public health test, which is in the 2006-07 legislation, should be applied going forward. Given that children’s playgrounds would almost certainly not meet that threshold, what is your argument in terms of protecting children from the harms of second-hand smoke?
Andrew Gwynne (Labour/Co-operative, Gorton and Denton)
Q The Bill seeks to reduce youth vaping. How do you think we can best achieve that while not deterring adult smokers from quitting?