Armed Forces Commissioner Bill
Public Bill Committee, 10 December 2024.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will first consider the programme motion as on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions for the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take these matters formally, without debate.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and will be circulated to Members by email. We will now go into private session to discuss lines of questioning.
Examination of Witness
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Good morning. We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start to hear from our witnesses, do any Members wish to make declarations of interest in connection with the Bill?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
My son is in the Navy.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I think we can forgive you for that; thank you. We will now hear oral evidence from Mariette Hughes, the Service Complaints Ombudsman. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind the Committee that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings of the programme order that we agreed. For this panel, we have until 9.55 am. Will the witness introduce herself for the record and say a few words?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
A lot of Members are unused to Bill Committees, so if you want to speak, put up your hand in good time, the Clerk will let me know and we will get everyone in. I call Mark Francois.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Good morning, and thank you to the witness for your time today. You describe the Bill as “positive”. In your opinion, what are the main differences between your position and that of the commissioner, as proposed in the legislation? How do you see those as advantageousQ ?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q When you were doing your role, would you have preferred the opportunity to do the thematic reports envisaged in the Bill?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Lastly, what is your current backlog of complaints? We are working on the assumption that when the roles transition, anything that is metaphorically in your in-tray will transfer across to the commissioner. As of today, how many legacy cases—if we can call them that—do you envisage transferring across to the new organisation?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Having served on the Defence Committee and interviewed your predecessors, but not you, I commend you on that. Clearly, a lot of work has been done to catch up. There were hundreds before, so for the record, congratulations if you are down to just 30 live cases.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Thank you very much.
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Good morning, and thank you for joining us. On the point about transfer, how do you envisage the transfer of staff from the existing system operating? I have just a couple of little points after thatQ .
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q That is helpful. The Bill provides for the Secretary of State to provide additional staff. Do you envisage that being required very quickly, or do you think the current staff will be able to cope?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q Lastly, how do you envisage the new role working with the devolved Administrations? As a Scottish MP, I am thinking particularly of Scotland. How will the role interact with the veterans commissioners in place at the moment, and do you see any benefits from this role compared with the existing one?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Thank you, Mariette, for being with us today. Is it possible to go into the timeline of how we have got to this point? You talked about limited powers, and I completely agree with you. From your perspective, from raising those concerns with the MOD and Ministers, how have we got to this point where we are sitting here talking about the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill?Q
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q Thank you for your service and for doing what seems to be a great job in the circumstances. You alluded to the fact that this has been a long time coming, that you have been pushing for this and that there had previously been no backlog. The aim of the new Bill is to improve service licence conditions for service personnel. I have spoken to a number of them in my Portsmouth constituency, and one of the concerns, which you echoed, is that there seems to be a delta between the people who come forward and the things that happen. How do you see a change in the commissioner role improving things for those who come forward? Some service personnel say that they still have concerns around the trust and whether it will affect their career if they make a complaint.
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Can I ask for your views on the German armed forces commissioner? Obviously, this measure has been modelled on that.
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Q Do you think the German model will translate to the UK?
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Q What should we be learning from the German model to make improvements here?
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Thank you for joining us. The Ombudsman Association has questioned the use of the term “commissioner” in relation to this role, on the grounds that it is usually used for bodies with less influence. What are your views on thatQ ?
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Q What is your view of the comparison between the broad powers of an ombudsman and a commissioner in this scenario?
Lincoln Jopp (Conservative, Spelthorne)
I have two quick questions. First, you clearly laid out what is new under the commissioner set-up, the broader thematic, but it strikes me that it is an “access all areas” pass, a backstage laminate—“Go where you want.” Do you think the legislation as drafted constrains or directs you sufficiently? How would you set your agenda, given all that freedomQ ?
Lincoln Jopp (Conservative, Spelthorne)
Q My second question is, will you be applying?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Thank you, Mariette, for all the work that you and your team have been doing. As the shadow Minister mentioned, the transition in what SCOAF has been delivering has been quite remarkable. I want to continue that journey.
One of the key provisions for the Armed Forces Commissioner is their independence. In my mind, if they are not regarded as independent, it will not work in enabling people to raise concerns and issues with them. Could you talk us through how independence works in your current role, and how you feel an Armed Forces Commissioner independent from Government, Ministers and the chain of command might operate on a day-to-day basis?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q That is helpful, thank you. Related to the role’s independence is the approach you take to national security. A challenge of a Bill like this is that its powers are deliberately drawn very wide. You mentioned briefly what decisions you are taking. Could you talk us through how you assess national security in your current role? There is a legislative scrub of reports contained within the Bill, but it would be helpful for the commissioner and for Members to understand what you mean by national security when it is included in there. Could you talk us through how you would regard that at the moment?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Good. My final question is about the powers in the Bill about dismissing a commissioner in the event of their being incapacitated or unable to fulfil their job. Could you talk through how that would work? Currently, if you were not able to fulfil your duties, how would that work? Is there any difference between the framework that establishes your office and the commissioner’s office?
Juliet Campbell (Labour, Broxtowe)
Thank you very much for joining us. In part of your introduction, you spoke about the number of complaints that you receive. Clearly, the number of complaints that you receive is lower than the number of valid complaints that probably should be made. How do you think that this role will encourage people who might not have actively come forward, such as people from LGBT backgrounds and non-UK personnel, and enable them to come forward and make those complaints?Q
Juliet Campbell (Labour, Broxtowe)
Q That leads on to my second question, which is about patterns and trends of complaints and whether this role will enable people to look at them, rather than waiting, as you said, and think, “Oh, I have got to be the person who comes forward.” How would you be able to address any patterns or trends that you see in complaints?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We have to finish at 9.55 am, but do you want to ask a very quick question, Amanda Martin? You have one minute.
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q One of the biggest changes is made by clause 3, which allows people outside the armed forces to make a complaint or raise a concern. Do you think that will be a good thing?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much. That brings us to the end of the time for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witness on behalf of the Committee. We will now move to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear oral evidence from Ted Arnold, senior public affairs and policy manager for Help for Heroes, and Angela Kitching, director of campaigns, policy and research for the Royal British Legion. For this panel we have until 10.40 am. Could the panel introduce themselves?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Good morning to both of you. Thank you for joining us. First, to the Royal British Legion, your briefing note makes a number of positive suggestions about the Bill. You say quite a bit about the armed forces covenant and the duty that that places upon Government and parliamentarians. How, if at all, do you think the new role of the commissioner will help to strengthen our obligations under the covenant?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q The Bill focuses on serving personnel; what, if anything, do you think the commissioner will be able to do for veterans? As drafted, the legislation does not give the commissioner much of a role in regard to veterans, and some people would argue that that is a lacuna in the Bill. What is what is the RBL’s perspective on that?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q I have one more question on that subject. One issue that cropped up on Second Reading was the proposed UK veterans commissioner and how, if at all, this commissioner would interact with that commissioner. It is not clear how much progress has been made on the veterans commissioner; what is the RBL’s perspective on that? Do you have any concerns about the rate of progress on the UK-wide veterans commissioner?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Let me turn to Help for Heroes. For the record, Mr Arnold, I had the privilege of knowing Bryn Parry, who is of course no longer with us. We still think of his widow, Emma. He was an exceptional man and he did a great thing.
What is Help for Heroes’ perspective on some of the veterans’ issues that I have just put to the RBL, please?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Lastly, on the veterans point, most local authorities, in accordance with the covenant, have appointed armed forces champions, but I think it is probably true to say—this is not a party political point—that that is very patchy across different local authorities. Some, bluntly, pay lip service but do not really make a lot of difference for veterans. Others really do go the extra mile, particularly in the allocation of social housing. What is your experience, as Help for Heroes, of how that system works at the local government level?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q I want to raise two points, and the first is mostly for Angela, from the issues you have been discussing in the focus groups. Do you feel that the terminology in clause 4 on general service welfare is appropriate and suitable for purpose? First of all, do you feel that the term “general service welfare” itself covers the correct areas? Similarly, in subsection (2) of new section 340IA, which the Bill will insert into the Armed Forces Act 2006, do we feel that words such as “may materially affect” welfare are the correct terminology? Do we feel that is sufficient?
In subsection (3) of that new section, do we feel that a “relevant family member” is correctly drawn? Further down, subsection (7) of the new section states that the Secretary of State will give the commissioner “reasonable assistance”. From the focus groups and the work you have done with your members, is there a feeling that that is the correct terminology? Will that capture everything that they feel the commissioner needs to be involved in, or is there any work that can be done to broaden or tighten some of those definitions?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q Related to that is new section 340IA in clause 4(2), which states:
“in the Commissioner’s opinion…may materially affect the welfare”.
Is the concern that that word choice creates the possibility almost of a bottleneck being artificially created?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q As I mentioned the ombudsman, can I ask how you think the Bill will work with the existing veterans commissioners, especially in Scotland, and how can we make sure this is applied equally across different parts of the United Kingdom?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q We briefly touched on family. It would be really interesting for the Committee to understand what you class as family, given that nowadays families come in all different shapes and sizes. Could you help us understand what your thoughts are on that?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q Would you rather see a broader principle of inclusion rather than exclusion when we are defining family members, so that people do not feel excluded from the process?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q What do you think the commissioner could do in advance to support personnel as they are serving, to help prevent some of the issues that we then see in veterans? Is there anything in the Bill that will help with that?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q You touched briefly on trust; it is really important that armed forces personnel should be able to have trust. How do you think the commissioner can be presented in such a way as to gain the trust of military personnel?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q One final question. The Bill makes no reference to the armed forces covenant. Do you think it should?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
I thank Angela and Ted for being here today. The title of the role is changing from “ombudsman” to “commissioner”. We previously heard that different perceptions come with those different titles. Do you think that moving to “commissioner” is a good change? If not, where are the limitations?
Andrew Ranger (Labour, Wrexham)
When people leave the armed forces, they state that morale is one of the biggest reasons for why they intend to leave. Do you think the commissioner’s appointment and the powers they will be given will have a direct impact on improving morale and therefore decrease the number of leavers in the forces?Q
Andrew Ranger (Labour, Wrexham)
Q What do you think would be a sensible timeframe in which we could say there had been a direct correlation between the commissioner being in place and seeing an improvement? What would be a timeframe to measure that over?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Thank you both for giving evidence. Can I take you back to independence and trust? Legislating for independence is one thing, but building trust in a system is quite different. Can you talk us through your expectations of how an Armed Forces Commissioner could build trust with armed forces personnel and—notwithstanding that their remit is predominantly people who are serving and their families—with the wider armed forces family as well?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Thank you for that. Secondly, in relation to the ability of armed forces personnel to raise issues, people in civilian roles have greater access to do that. Can you talk us through how you think it might work, being able to raise an issue that is outside the chain of command, but is still within what is, in our military, quite a hierarchical structure? Can you talk us through how organisations such as yours would be able to communicate the ways in which that could work, but which do not undermine discipline and military order, and which provide the opportunity for the commissioner to hear from people about their particular concerns?
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Q Thank you for joining us today. I recognise much of what you say about the challenges of service life through my experience in the armed forces parliamentary scheme and representing a garrison city, Colchester. We all hope that the Armed Forces Commissioner will help to address those challenges. We talked about how we might measure the impact of the commissioner role, but how might that impact be communicated? What role might your organisations play in helping to communicate that?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
That brings us to the end of the session. Thank you very much to our witnesses. We will go on to our next panel.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear oral evidence from Lieutenant General Sir Andrew Gregory, controller of SSAFA, the Armed Forces charity, and Lieutenant General Sir Nicholas Pope, chair of the Confederation of Service Charities. We have until 11.25 am for this panel. Could our witnesses introduce themselves, perhaps saying a bit about themselves and what they do?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Generals, good morning. Nick, could you give us some idea of how many service charities Cobseo now covers and some idea of the different topics? I know you have banded them together; how does that work? When you have done that, could you explain the charitable sector’s broad view—if it is possible for so many different charities, large and small, to have a collective view—of the Bill and any strengths and weaknesses therein? Please take it in those three parts.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q That is a good description of the breadth of the waterfront that Cobseo covers—thank you. Are there any particular strengths or weaknesses in the Bill that you, on behalf of Cobseo, would like to highlight to the Committee before we debate it on Thursday?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Thank you very much. General Gregory, could you answer a similar question on behalf of SSAFA? I am sure you looked at the Second Reading report, too; I know you are a very thorough chap. Are there any strengths or weaknesses in the Bill that you would like to highlight to the Committee?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Thank you very much.
Terry Jermy (Labour, South West Norfolk)
Sir Andrew, I work closely with SSAFA. You have some fantastic volunteers in Norfolk. Thank you for the work your organisation doesQ .
Terry Jermy (Labour, South West Norfolk)
Prior to my current role, I was a local councillor for a number of years. I worked with SSAFA to encourage people to come forward, first of all to raise an issue, but more often to formalise the issue. Encouraging people to go through that process was quite a barrier. Do you think these proposals will encourage people to be prepared to raise and formalise issues?
Terry Jermy (Labour, South West Norfolk)
Q The word “commissioner” means different things to different people. Do you have any views on the use of that title and do you think it is appropriate?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q Flipping Terry’s question on its head, could it actually have negative implications in terms of culture in service life and usher in a new wave of complaining?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q On that point, how do you think the new role will be communicated downward, from a commanding officer to their service personnel? What level of severity do you think would warrant going to see the commissioner, and how do you think that would be communicated to soldiers?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q You touched on this, Sir Andrew, when you talked about the size of the job and the role. Do you think that the proposals for resourcing the commissioner’s office are adequate to fulfil those functions? You talked a lot about trust and transparency, and others have spoken about impact. To either of you, is there anything else we need to think about to make sure that the interaction between chain of command and the commissioner is coherent and successful?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q Thank you for coming. General Gregory, the armed forces are a tri-service, and there are slightly different cultures within that, and the Gurkhas as well. Do you feel that the role of the commissioner needs to be adapted slightly, in order to be trusted by service personnel?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q Given that SSAFA is such an old charity, you will have seen that the needs of military personnel have changed over the years. What do you think that will mean for the role of the commissioner?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q General, from your past experience with the ombudsman service, what would be your biggest ask of the commissioner in their new role?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q First, I thank SSAFA for the work it does in Fife. The work it has done, when I was a councillor and on an ongoing basis, has been incredible.
To pick up on something you mentioned earlier, SSAFA has been around for a very long time, so what do you see as some of the thematic issues that have existed with forces personnel over the years? Where do you think the commissioner should be looking first? Are there two or three things from those thematic areas that they could look at?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q On your point about shame factors around the Armed Forces in the past, do you see the role of the commissioner as being essentially proactive and preventive in heading those off?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q I am conscious of the time. Could you answer that question, and include the role that you feel your charities would have with the commissioner in heading off some of those issues on a more practical, day-to-day basis?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
May I interrupt you? We are running out of time, so will the Minister ask his questions?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Thank you for allowing me to interrupt, Sir Edward.
Wearing the hats from your previous roles, can I ask you to think about the unannounced visits power in the Bill? One of the bits that I feel strongly about is the ability of the commissioner to visit any base in the UK unannounced to look at general service-welfare matters. First, could you talk us through the effect that the commissioner having that power would have on how our military would address general service welfare matters in the broadest sense? Whether used or not, it would be a power that the commissioner had in their toolbox.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Brilliant. Secondly, one of the key parts of the legislation is something that we cannot actually legislate for: Parliament picking up the issues when the commissioner reports their findings and recommendations to it. Can you talk us through how your organisations’ roles will change in that situation? You will have the ability to say, “Here is a recommendation,” and the opportunity to say to parliamentarians of all parties and structures, “Shine a spotlight on this.” How will you behave differently when those reports are brought forward? How will that be different from when, say, the SCOAF reports, which do not enjoy large-scale parliamentary scrutiny, are brought forward?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I think we have to stop it there; otherwise, we will not finish on time. Thank you very much for your evidence, gentlemen.
(Afternoon)
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. We will now hear oral evidence from Abby Dryden, CEO of the Defence Medical Welfare Service. We have until 2.20 pm for this panel. Before I ask Abby to introduce herself, are there any declarations of interest?
Paul Holmes (Conservative, Hamble Valley)
Apologies, Mr Efford, for not announcing it this morning, but I am a trustee of the armed forces parliamentary scheme.
Examination of Witness
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
Q56 Abby, could you introduce yourself for the record, please?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Thank you for joining us this afternoon, Ms Dryden. We have asked a number of other witnesses who appeared before us this morning a similar question: could you give us your overview of the Bill from the DMWS perspective and tell us what advantages you think it might provide for service personnel and their families? Do you think there are any weaknesses in the Bill that could be improved when we debate it on Thursday? It is a very open questionQ .
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Following on from your answer, how do you think armed forces personnel and their families need to be better supported than they are at present?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q You mentioned special educational needs. Historically, it has been an issue that a service family may sometimes have to work for several years to get a statement for an SEN child. We now call it an education, health and care plan, but it was a statement in old money. It might take a family two years to get that from their local education authority. As an example, let us say it is the Wiltshire LEA if they are based at Tidworth. However, if they are then posted to Catterick, they have to go back to square one—or they did have to—in order to start that whole very painful journey again.
We are all constituency MPs here, so we all know how difficult it can be. It is not a partisan point at all. Has there been any progress on that issue at all over the past couple of years, and if not, is it an issue that we should raise on Thursday?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
One of the fundamental principles of the armed forces covenant is that there should be no disadvantage as a result of service.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
If you are saying that the situation has got a bit better, that is encouraging, but I think you are also implying that there is more work to be done. We might want to explore that on Thursday under the “General service welfare” part of the Bill.
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Do you have any concerns about the transition from the ombudsman to the new commissioner?Q
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Q Do you think anything is needed to ensure a successful handover?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Thank you for being with us today. I should imagine that many of the service personnel you deal with might be physically incapacitated or not of sound mind to be able to raise service complaints of their own accord. Would it be possible to explain the current process you have to raise those issues with the ombudsman? Under the Bill, can you see the process changing with a new commissionerQ ?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q Following on from that, are you trained to advise service personnel and families on creating a claim, or are you being advised completely by the chain of command?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q And the process that you have now, do you think it will still be fit for purpose when the commissioner comes in?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
You mentioned the issues you sometimes have with this highly mobile population. Do you see the commissioner helping or playing a role in some of those issues? In Scotland, we have recently seen how the moving of forces personnel has caused issues with healthcare and education. Is that something where you could imagine the commissioner playing a roleQ ?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
I want to understand how you view the overall welfare services offered by the military? How do you see the commissioner working to improve areas where you might feel that improvement is requiredQ ?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q I suspect I am about to be interrupted by the Division bell. However, thank you for joining us today. I understand that your organisation works not only with service personnel and veterans but with families. A key part of this legislation is enabling armed forces families to access the commissioner. Could you give us a sense of how the needs of families differ from those of armed forces personnel, who the commissioner provides for at the moment? How might the commissioner take a different perspective depending on which cohort they are looking at?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
Q Abby, do you have anything more to add to the answer you were giving to the Minister?
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Apologies for the interruption earlier. I want to refer back to an answer you gave my colleague David Reed when you suggested that you had not had to forward any issues to the ombudsman as previously constituted. Have you ever forwarded issues to other agencies on behalf of serving personnel or their families? What kind of agencies might they be?Q
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Q But referrals to other ombudsmen or commissioners has not traditionally been part of your role?
Examination of Witnesses
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
David, you want to make a declaration of interest.
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
I have a close family member who works for one of the charities here today.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
Okay. I am sure that has covered you. For the record, could all the witnesses please introduce themselves?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Colonel Doherty, in fairness to you, we should put it on the record that, in the military, liability has a different meaning from the one that it has in general English language usage. Thank you for your service. The first issue is just a branding point. A while back the Army Benevolent Fund had a bit of a rebrand as the Soldiers’ Charity, I think. Where are you on that?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q You have gone back to the status quo ante.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q You mentioned that you have 38 years of service, so you would be perfectly human to be thinking about pensions. There is very little reference to pensions in the Bill, but you could argue that if you are looking at issues of general service welfare, what happens to a service person’s pension is very important to them and their family. Do you think it a weakness in the Bill that it does not say much specifically about pensions? Would you like to see that specifically included?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Thank you. I think we all know that the Forces Pension Society is the Office for Budget Responsibility, if you like, of all military pensions issues, but as it is not here this afternoon, so forgive the question to you.
Can we switch to the Royal Air Force, please? Air Commodore Harper, you are probably too young to remember, sir, but in the cold war there was what was called the tactical evaluation process, or TACEVAL. It was a bit like a military Ofsted, and a team could turn up at an airbase—for example, RAF Brüggen in West Germany—say that world war three had just broken out and basically put the station through its paces for several days, and they would get an Ofsted-like score at the end.
It is not quite as severe as that, but the Armed Forces Commissioner has an Ofsted-like capability under the Bill to turn up unannounced, certainly within the UK; it is more complicated if it is abroad. Do you think that that power will be valuable in holding people to account and concentrating minds, and how often do you think the commissioner should use it?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
I was trying to be nice.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Some of your colleagues down the years have told me that knowing the TACEVAL team could turn up at almost any moment very much concentrated minds. It kept people sharp, is how one person put it to me. It is a slightly different situation here, but most people seem to think it is good to have those powers in the Bill.
We will move to the Royal Navy—apologies for leaving the senior service until last, Ms Harding. On the housing side, in my experience all three services tend to treat service housing slightly differently. From memory, quite a lot of service personnel live off base and tend to commute to their place of work. Quite a few of them actually buy a property rather than live in a quarter. Obviously, housing is one issue that the commissioner will look at. Are you happy that the powers in the Bill are sufficient for the commissioner to investigate that issue? I am thinking particularly about the ability to produce thematic reports, and housing is an obvious issue for an early report. Do you have a particular view on that?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q This is my last question. You mentioned SEND, which I think we have already agreed we might discuss on Thursday, because it is so important. Could you say a bit about the work that your charity has done on the SEND front?
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for your time this afternoon. All three of you will have seen much during your working lives and in the roles you have now, and had extensive conversations with service personnel. We are aware that there is an attrition rate from the service, low morale, dissatisfaction with the role and various issues to do with that. When we look at different surveys, key themes come out a number of times to do with accommodation, career prospects and family life.Q
The provision in clause 3 provides that service complaints can be made from people who are not necessarily service personnel, which is different from what happens with the ombudsman now. First, what are your thoughts on that? Secondly, one of the themes that has come through is the need for trust and transparency about the impact from anything that the new role does. How could that change enhance that?
Lincoln Jopp (Conservative, Spelthorne)
You will have seen the witness list for today, and you will notice that the only people we do not get to consult are the military chain of command because their views are, for constitutional reasons, vested in the Minister. I will ask the air commodore and the colonel to rewind a bit to when they were serving in the military as part of the chain of command on frontline operations; I know you both served time in Q the training base. Do you see the potential for the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill, as drafted, to erode the authority of the military chain of command?
Terry Jermy (Labour, South West Norfolk)
My question follows nicely on from that. Colonel Doherty, I was reading your CV in the paperwork and I was struck by the range of experience and the number of different locations that you have served in. I join colleagues in thanking you for that service; I was pleased to read that report. GivenQ your experience of active service, and now your new role—your experience on both sides—do you feel that the commissioner would be seen as sufficiently strong and independent to encourage people to come forward?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q I have a few questions. Colonel Doherty, you have travelled throughout the world during your career. You have been to Yemen, Kuwait, Afghanistan and various other places. How do you see the commissioner reaching military personnel serving in other parts of the world?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q Mandy, are there any particular challenges you see that naval communities face in contrast with the other services?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q Let me ask Air Commodore Harper the same question about the RAF. Do you see any particular challenges not seen in the other services?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Thank you all for all the work that you and your organisations do. One of the bits about this Bill that is a development of where we are currently is the ability for the commissioner to undertake thematic investigations into issues affecting the welfare of our people and their families.
Could you give us a flavour of the issues coming forward in the cohort that we are talking about in the Bill to your organisations and how you think shining a spotlight on some of those structural issues might be able to address some of the underlying causes? The purpose of the commissioner is, ideally, to assist in removing some of the barriers, obstacles and challenges that our service people and their families face. I would be interested to get your sense as to whether those structural issues have always been here or whether you have seen changes in recent years that need to be addressed by the commissioner.
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q I echo the thanks for all you do for your single services. This Bill proposes a lot of new powers for an Armed Forces Commissioner. If, down the line, after this commissioner comes in, you take umbrage at how they are conducting themselves, is there a clear line of escalation in the Bill through which you would be able to provide a complaint—either to the MOD or directly to Ministers?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q Would it be beneficial to have that in the Bill?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
No further questions, so I thank the three of you for giving evidence this afternoon. We will move on to our next panel.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
Welcome: will each of you introduce yourself for the record?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Having dealt with the three families’ federations when I was a Minister—admittedly, about a decade ago—I always found your input extremely valuable. I put that on the record this afternoon. I am sure that the Minister will echo my remarks.
You represent the families of service personnel and, as at the heart of the Bill are issues of general service welfare, may I give each of you an opportunity to raise your top two or three issues under that heading that you would like to see the commissioner produce early thematic reports on and to give us some idea why you picked those? This time, let us start with the senior service.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q That is fair. The Defence Committee has done quite a bit on service accommodation down the years, but I cannot recall—having served on it for seven years or so—ever doing something specific on that. That is probably to the Committee’s discredit, but I cannot remember us doing a report directly on that.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
The Royal Air Force, what about you? It will be interesting to see whether we have a hat trick. Will you give us your top one or two?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Anecdotally, if colleagues will forgive me, I remember going to RAF Digby about a decade ago, where there were some very highly-qualified communications specialists, who do important work, living in what were virtually demountables, to use a colloquial term. These people are massively employable in industry and then we wonder why they leave, so I sympathise with your raising that issue. Again, this is a bit of a hot button of mine, but you also mentioned educational need. Does that include special educational needs, and if so, could you elaborate on that slightly?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Perhaps I could take the liberty, Mr Efford, of asking the other two services whether they want to add anything on the SEN point. The Army tends to move around so much; I know that it is a particular issue when families move from garrison A to garrison B.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q I wrote a paper about retention, called “Stick or Twist?”, for a previous Prime Minister.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
The pressure on family life, as we have already heard today, is the single biggest reason why people leave, but when we went round a number of military bases, we found it was often an amalgam of reasons. Sometimes there would be a pressure cooker effect over several years, and then one thing might become, in colloquial English, the straw that broke the camel’s back. Sometimes it is that cocktail that just becomes a bit too much. Is that a fair characterisation? [Interruption.] I can see some heads nodding, so that still holds good five years on. Thank you very much. You have been generous with your time, Mr Efford—thank you.
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q I will start from the left and go to the Army first. It is nice to meet you, Collette, and thank you for coming. I want to understand what challenges you see with families getting the support they need, and how you think the commissioner will help to address those challenges in their role.
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q Sarah, a very similar question, because I know that you mentioned enabling families to thrive in communities of their choice. How do you feel the commissioner could work to support families to achieve that?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q Maria, the same question to you. You understand the difficulties and challenges that RAF families face. How can the commissioner help support that?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth Sutton and Devonport)
Q Thank you all for coming to provide us with evidence today. As Devonport’s MP I get lots of copies of Homeport from the Naval Families Federation for my constituency office, so thank you for all those that come through the post. For me the extension to families is a key part of the legislation, because it is the first time that we have had the acknowledgement of families in the Armed Forces Act with a real focus on their welfare needs.
I am interested to get your perspective on how you think an Armed Forces Commissioner’s office would deal with and seek to build trust with the families, because it is much easier for the commissioner to visit a base. If there is accommodation on site, that might be the case. But we know that not everyone who serves and their families live on bases. We explicitly exclude the commissioner from having a right to inspect someone’s home without notice, for very good and obvious reasons. But how do you think the commissioner should access and seek to get views from and be responsive to the needs of families? I know that will change depending on service and location and the barriers to get there. It is important that we have an understanding about what they are so we can seek to overcome them. Can you expand on that kind of challenge? Shall we go to the Navy first?
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Q Thank you for joining us this afternoon. One of the key functions of the new commissioner will be to promote
“the welfare of persons subject to service law and”—
this is a key phrase—“relevant family members”. That is left deliberately broad. What is your view on how a relevant family member might be defined?
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Q How do you envisage this Bill improving service life? You mentioned the importance of communications and getting the information to service personnel. How do you see your role in that?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q This question is to Sarah. You have mentioned the continuity of education allowance—CEA. This is a hot topic; the rates have just been released, and it is clear that the rates are not going to be enough to allow service personnel to keep their kids in certain schools. Is there a fear that in the transition from ombudsman to commissioner, such issues might fall through the cracks in the interim? What do you think can be done to make sure that their voices are heard as quickly as possible, because this issue is going to play out in the coming months?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q It does, thank you. May I open that question up to Maria and Collette—would you like to add any other points?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
If there are no more questions, let us thank our witnesses for coming and giving evidence this afternoon. Thank you very much. The star of the show is now going to take the floor.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
Minister, if you could give us your name, rank and serial number, we will get on.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q Francois, Lieutenant 523962—very, very rusty number. Minister, we will get into all the debates on Thursday, but I give you fair notice that, after the testimony of a number of people today, including the last panel, we are probably going to try to provoke a debate on special needs education under clause 3, when we get to that—just to give you and your officials time to prepare.
I have a couple of other questions on the Bill. You said something on Second Reading that was not entirely clear—I do not mean that critically; it is just the way that it came out. Is the commissioner still going to take up individual cases that have exhausted the service complaints process, in the way that the Service Complaints Ombudsman currently does, or is the commissioner going to concentrate generally on more thematic issues? If it is the latter and not the former, that is a big change. Could you clarify that?
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
Q To be really clear, is it both? If Corporal Atkins has exhausted the service complaints process but still feels deeply aggrieved and is convinced that it has not adequately dealt with his issue, he could still go to the commissioner, and the commissioner would have the discretion, just as the ombudsman always had, to take up Corporal Atkins’ complaint and look into it in more detail.
Mark Francois (Conservative, Rayleigh and Wickford)
That is pretty clear, so thank you for clarifying. I will stop there because I know you have only limited time for your panel and others will want to ask questions.
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Q It has all gone very quiet on the national veterans commissioner. All the devolved Governments have one; when will we get one here?
Michelle Scrogham (Labour, Barrow and Furness)
Q The commissioner can access unannounced any of the sites within the UK, but the Secretary of State has the power to restrict access. How will that work in practice?
Lincoln Jopp (Conservative, Spelthorne)
Q I am obliged to Maria Lyle for highlighting the issue about whether the commissioner will be a call centre or will produce big, thematic reports. The explanatory note to the Bill says:
“This Bill will establish an independent Commissioner to serve as a direct point of contact for Armed Forces personnel and their families.”
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
Mr Jopp, you were in the middle of a question.
Lincoln Jopp (Conservative, Spelthorne)
Q I was—well, I promise there was a question at the end of it. The point I was making was that the Bill and the explanatory note do not match, in as much as the explanatory note suggests three functions: first, taking on the existing ombudsman role; secondly, to act as a point of contact for all armed forces families; and, thirdly, the wider thematic piece. When I look at the Bill as drafted, however, I see two of those, namely the ombudsman duties and the thematic one. While loosely drawn, that will leave a lot to subsequent interpretation in order not to mismanage expectations. Having listened to the evidence today, do you agree?
Lincoln Jopp (Conservative, Spelthorne)
Q I have another question. Two of the three witnesses identified the risk of the legislation eroding the authority of the military chain of command, but one said that he had had a good session with you and come away convinced that it would not do so. Will you enlighten us as to how you managed to convince the general, while the more junior officers were more sceptical?
Lincoln Jopp (Conservative, Spelthorne)
We might return to that on Thursday, but thank you.
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q Minister, you mentioned ensuring that issues are handled and dealt with, and you said that previously issues had fallen away and not been taken up by the MOD. Would that not make it more sensible to have a duty on the face of the Bill for the MOD to respond to commissioner reports to ensure that action can be taken? Could you comment a little on that?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q If someone is dissatisfied with the outcome that they have received from the commissioner, is there a way they can appeal it? I think we covered this earlier with other witnesses, when I expressed concern about the decision on whether someone is materially affected being in the hands of the commissioner. What if there is a situation in which someone does not feel that their case has been taken up or that their issue has not been raised? Is there any kind of redress for them to go beyond that and determine why that is the case or to complain in any way?
Graeme Downie (Labour, Dunfermline and Dollar)
Q Finally, I have a question, which I raised on Second Reading, about the relationship with the devolved Administrations where there are devolved areas such as health. How do you envisage the commissioner working with the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and across England?
David Reed (Conservative, Exmouth and Exeter East)
Q Minister, it was clear from Second Reading that there is broad cross-party support for this piece of legislation. From your perspective, how did this Bill come to be? How has it been brought to Parliament so quickly? Who were the dominant voices in forming the nuance of this Bill? We heard from the current Service Complaints Ombudsman that a demand signal did not come from her office, and although it was one of the points on her wish list, it was not one of the main points. It would be interesting to hear from you how this Bill came to be. Secondly, while I have your attention, a point was raised around the single service charities having a clear route to lodge complaints, if needs be, against the new commissioner. It would be good to see whether there is support for that, and whether we can add that to the Bill in the coming days.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
We are up against time, so slightly briefer answers would be welcome.
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Q You may know that from a previous life I have an unusual, and possibly unhealthy, interest in comparing the powers of commissioners and ombudsmen. Why are we creating a new commissioner when we might have upped the powers of the existing ombudsman?
Pam Cox (Labour, Colchester)
Q I have one brief follow-up. I note your comments about refreshing the contract between the nation and those who serve. Given that, why have you not included a duty for the MOD to respond to the commissioner’s reports?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q We would all like to see a strong and independent commissioner—a real champion for the armed forces. What certainty can we gain that the Secretary of State’s powers, as set out in the Bill, will not undermine the commissioner’s independence?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q We would all like the Bill’s provisions to be accessible to all service personnel. How can the Secretary of State ensure that it will be accessible to everyone, including reservists, female personnel, the LGBTQ+ community, and non-UK, black and minority ethnic personnel?
Helen Maguire (Liberal Democrat, Epsom and Ewell)
Q One final question, if I may. The chain of command has been raised quite a few times by different individuals and in questioning. How do you see the commissioner interacting with the chain of command in practice, to ensure that it is successful?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
Briefly, please.
Amanda Martin (Labour, Portsmouth North)
Q We have heard about the erosion of the contract and that the same issues are raised time and time again. On top of that, the MOD has already produced several independent although non-binding reports to Parliament—Haythornthwaite, Kerslake, Sheldon, Etherton, Atherton. What makes this different? How and why will this make a difference?
Terry Jermy (Labour, South West Norfolk)
Q In the very first witness comments, I was struck by the observation that, because the current ombudsman role is funded by the Government, there is perhaps an acknowledgment that that weakens the role’s independence. Of course, the new commissioner will be funded by the Government as well. Are you aware of that concern? I appreciate Helen Maguire’s comments about independence. Are you confident that there are sufficient safeguards around independence to encourage people to come forward?
Juliet Campbell (Labour, Broxtowe)
A few of the witnesses today have spoken about “relevant family members” and the fact that that has not been defined in the Bill. Why did the Bill not adopt the existing armed forces covenant definition, which may have made it a little easierQ ?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
I call Andrew Ranger—quickly, please.
Andrew Ranger (Labour, Wrexham)
Armed Forces Commissioner is an important role, and they need to get to the information and the people that they need. Q What enforcement mechanism will be available to them if people do not co-operate?
Andrew Ranger (Labour, Wrexham)
Q Very briefly, how quickly do you expect to have the commissioner up and running in post?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham and Chislehurst)
With perfect timing, that concludes our session.