Employment Rights Bill
Public Bill Committee, 26 November 2024.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we begin, I remind Members to please switch electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication. Unless there are any objections, we will not sit in private to discuss how to go ahead with the questions; it is a waste of time. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take these matters formally.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Copies of the written evidence received by the Committee will be made available in the Committee Room.
We now come to the motion to sit in private. We have agreed not to, effectively, but I will give people the chance to object to the motion.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
If nobody objects, we will not sit in private before we start hearing from witnesses. Do any Members wish to make a declaration of interests in connection with the Bill?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
I refer to my declaration in Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a trade union member.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Thank you. It looks like we have a host of interests.
Michael Wheeler (Labour, Worsley and Eccles)
I also refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and my membership of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and GMB.
Anneliese Midgley (Labour, Knowsley)
I also refer to my declaration of interests. I am member of Unite and GMB.
Alison Hume (Labour, Scarborough and Whitby)
I also refer to my declaration of interests and my membership of Unison and the Writers’ Guild of Great Britain.
Jonathan Pearce (Labour, High Peak)
I also refer to my declaration of interests. I am a member of GMB.
Laurence Turner (Labour, Birmingham Northfield)
I draw people’s attention to my declarations in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I am also a member of the Unite and GMB trade unions.
Alex McIntyre (Labour, Gloucester)
I refer to my membership of the GMB and Community unions, and my previous membership of the Employment Lawyers Association.
Marie Tidball (Labour, Penistone and Stocksbridge)
I also refer to my declaration of interests. I am a member of the Community union, Unison and GMB.
Nia Griffith (Labour, Llanelli)
I also refer to my declaration of interests. I am a member of the USDAW trade union.
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
I also refer to my declaration of interests. I am a member of the Unison and Community trade unions.
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Mr Stringer, I do not think that I actually mentioned my trade union memberships. For the record, the individual unions are Unite and GMB.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Thank you, Minister. If any interests are particularly relevant to a Member’s questioning or speech, they should declare them again at the appropriate time.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Matthew Percival, the future of work director for the CBI, Jane Gratton, deputy director for policy for the British Chambers of Commerce, and Alex Hall-Chen, principal policy adviser on sustainability, skills and employment for the Institute of Directors, who is joining us virtually.
I remind Committee members that we must stick exactly to the timings in the programme motion. We have until 10.10 am for this panel, so timing is tight. Will the witnesses briefly introduce themselves?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Thank you. I turn to Greg Smith to ask the first question on behalf of the official Opposition.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Thank you, Mr Stringer, and good morning, witnesses. I always like to get down to the nitty gritty and the nuts and bolts of any legislation in front of us. This is quite a weighty Bill that makes significant changes to employment law. What do the organisations that you represent fear most in it?Q
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q I want to come back on this point, as it goes to the nub of any change to employment law. This does not mean that I am against employment law—I want to make that clear before anyone suggests otherwise. Alex, you mentioned the net impact of this legislation on the number of people in the United Kingdom in employment and the number of new jobs that will be created—or not, as the case may be—and you gave clear data from the 700 business leaders you spoke to. Could I ask the other two witnesses about your research among your members? What is your assessment of the likely impact of the Bill on job creation and job losses? Matthew, you talked about the risk of redundancy actually becoming greater as a result of some of the measures on fire and rehire. What is your assessment of the Bill’s impact on job numbers?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Good morning, everyone. You have mentioned quite a few surveys, but there are other surveys available that show high levels of support among managers and senior decision makers in businesses, with up to three quarters of managers supporting the measures in the Bill. Matthew, a number of the concerns you raised are the subject of live consultations, so I am sure you will be responding to those.
On a more general point, Jane in particular said that a lot of the businesses you represent do a lot of the things in the Bill already. Do you think it is important that we have a level playing field so that good businesses are encouraged to treat their staff properly?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
I can assure you of that, do not worry.
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Jane, you have said quite a lot in the past about the link between good employment protections and productivity, and the CBI has also said there is a case to be made for better security at work increasing productivity. Do you agree that the Bill has the potential to deliver on the idea that an increase in protections at work can help to increase productivity for employers?
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
I have a series of short questions. First, if the panellists were to put a stake in the ground on probationary periods, what timescale would you choose? What is a reasonable approach?Q
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q It has been said a number of times that this is almost a big bang approach around employment rights, where suddenly there are all these new rights appearing that people are having to deal with. What reflections might you have on a more staged approach to this, where it is implemented over a period of time so that employers are able to manage the new legislation?
Chris Law (Scottish National Party, Dundee Central)
A number of parts of the legislation have been removed, and some are obviously there for consultation. I wanted to ask you as a panel where you would like to see the Bill go further. What more ambition would you like to see in the Bill? Matthew, maybe we could start with you. I can see you have a bit of a blank stare at the moment.Q
Alex McIntyre (Labour, Gloucester)
Q I used to work on a zero-hours contract in the hospitality industry, as many do. Everyone who worked in that small business was on a zero-hours contract, which led to a situation where colleagues of mine would be on 60 hours one week and then given five hours the following week by the boss, who was doing that for personal reasons, frankly. I was a student at the time—I was growing up and at school—but they had a family and bills to pay. Would you not agree that there does need to be reform in a system that puts all the flexibility in the hands of the employer and none in the hands of the employees? Particularly on zero-hours contract reform, would you not agree that most seasonal businesses understand the seasonality of their business and, with some planning, would be able to put employees on permanent contracts for their baseline business throughout the year, but then use fixed-term contracts for the seasonal part of their year so that they had additional employees for the fixed term of their season?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
If the witnesses can be brief with their answers, we will fit one more question in.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Thank you. Very briefly—question and answers—Peter Bedford.
Peter Bedford (Conservative, Mid Leicestershire)
You mentioned the risks to recruitment and retention of staff. Specifically on youth unemployment and recruiting younger people, what impacts will this Bill have for your affected membersQ ?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask these witnesses questions. On behalf of the Committee, may I thank the three witnesses for giving us full and very clear answers? Thank you very much.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
We will now hear oral evidence from David Hale, head of public affairs at the Federation of Small Businesses, and Dom Hallas, executive director of Startup Coalition UK.
We must stick to the timings in the programme order that the Committee has agreed. For this session, we have until 10.40 am. Would the witnesses briefly introduce themselves for the record?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Good morning, gentlemen. In the last session, we heard evidence that this Bill could have a £5 billion-a-year impact, disproportionately impacting SMEs. Is that something that you both recognise as a risk of this legislation?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Sticking on that theme of flexibility, particularly from the start-up perspective, and thinking back to the post-2010, pre-pandemic period, a huge proportion of economic growth and the success of economic growth in that period was down to the growth in self-employment and people making that leap to set up their own business and become entrepreneurs.
Do you think the lack of flexibility, or making the rules more rigid, as this Bill does, and some of the factors that previous witnesses talked about—dissuading people to take on new hires and making the risk of new hires that much greater—will dissuade more people from choosing to leave payroll and start up on their own, whether through self-employment or registering a business?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Mr Hale, do you have a view on that perspective?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Clearly, this is quite a thick Bill; it has lots of measures in it. If you were able to change any element of it, what would be your top priority?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Minister.
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q I have some questions for Mr Hale. Previously, the Federation of Small Businesses supported the removal of the lower earnings limit for statutory sick pay, which is in the Bill. Do you support that today?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q As you are the one giving evidence, we are questioning you today. There will be plenty of time to go into detail. I want to touch on what you said about the process not being a good one. Is it about the level of engagement you are getting with Government officials? What is the issue? You mentioned that it has all been rushed. You will be aware that everything is being phased in over a couple of years. Could you expand on what the difficulty is with the process?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Dom, do you have anything to add?
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q In my constituency, there are a lot of small and medium-sized businesses. Will the two witnesses be kind enough to share whether they have seen any sectors that are particularly hard hit by the proposals, or any ameliorations to take account of that?
Michael Wheeler (Labour, Worsley and Eccles)
Q So far, we have heard an awful lot about flexibility and risk, from you and from previous panels. Would the panel accept that, currently, flexibility is too far in favour of the employer, that the risk is borne by the employee and that this Bill seeks to rebalance that? In which areas do you believe that the measures in the Bill do not work towards that?
Laurence Turner (Labour, Birmingham Northfield)
Q We heard quite a balanced account from the previous panel; there were measures in the Bill that they welcomed, alongside measures that they wanted to see changes to. Mr Hallas, I notice that you have said that gaps in employment law are becoming an increasing challenge. So I want to ask the same question to both of you: are there individual measures in the Bill that you welcome and, if so, what are they?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Anneliese Midgley is next. If we are brief with the question and answers, we will have time for one more question after this.
Anneliese Midgley (Labour, Knowsley)
Q My question is for Mr Hale. Can you confirm if the FSB has an HR service that it sells to its members, and if so, does that provide an incentive for you to talk up the impact of the Bill to your members?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Dom?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Thank you, David—you have expressed some quite strong views. My constituency of Stratford and Bow has over 12,500 registered business, of which over 5,000 would count as small businesses. I note that the FSB has a consultation open that closes today seeking the views of those businesses. I have not received representations from small businesses that reflect what you are saying, but I would be interested to see what the FSB’s consultation comes back with. My question is, with the Bill in its current state, how can the Government work with small businesses to support implementation measures?Q
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
It will have to be a one-sentence answer.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Order. I am sorry to interrupt you, but we have come to the end of the time allotted. On behalf of the Committee, I thank both witnesses for the evidence they have given this morning. Thank you very much.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Ben Willmott, head of public policy for the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development; Cathryn Moses-Stone, head of policy at the Chartered Management Institute; and Carly Cannings, founder of The Happy Business School. Once again, we must stick to the timings on the programme motion, so this session will have to end at 11.25 am. Will the witnesses briefly introduce themselves for the record?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Good morning to the witnesses. This is clearly a very large piece of legislation. Previous witnesses have said that perhaps it should be broken up. Do your organisations and those you represent think that it should be broken up? Is it too complicated? Is it putting too much on HR advisers, for example, in one swoop?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q What is enough time?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Carly?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q I have a final question on the upskilling of professionals, which Cathryn just mentioned, so that they can advise on the new measures coming in through both the Bill and the secondary legislation that will follow. What would be the cost burden and the impact on the whole sector to get into a position where it can give accurate and good advice when the Bill finally reaches the statute book? We can see the parliamentary maths: it will become an Act.
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Good morning, everyone. To pick up on the points you just raised, I reassure you that there will be continued dialogue before implementation.
I have a more general question about what you see as the current weaknesses in the employment rights sphere. What do we need to do to give people more protection and security at work? Do you think the Bill addresses that?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Thank you. I have a specific question for Cathryn, and the other two witnesses could also respond to it. First, though, I should say that the right to disconnect is not in the Bill.
Cathryn, you spoke about surveys with your managers and about the strong support for the Bill, and you said that there is nothing in the proposals that should alarm a responsible business. Given what you also said about the pace of implementation and the need to continue dialogue, if we get that right, would you still say there is nothing in the proposals that should alarm a responsible employer?
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q From Torbay to Tyneside, productivity in the British economy is the biggest challenge that we face. Cathryn has alluded to productivity a number of times during evidence. What opportunities do you see in the Bill for driving productivity and the culture change needed to drive that agenda through our workforce?
Chris Law (Scottish National Party, Dundee Central)
Q This is a question for the whole panel but, Carly, you mentioned that regulations here set the minimum standards. Does this Bill go far enough, and which bits would you like to see go further?
Nick Timothy (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Employment standards are obviously important and can contribute to higher productivity, but also, if you guarantee and legislate for certain standards, there will be trade-offs, because that brings cost and opportunity costs through lost time. Real improvements to productivity come from things like investment in tech and training.Q
May we explore the trade-offs a little? With this kind of legal framework, to what extent will managers be able to focus properly on the core purpose of their businesses, as opposed to compliance with the law? To what extent will managers be able to invest properly in training and new technologies to aid productivity, rather than have the costs set out in the impact assessment?
Michael Wheeler (Labour, Worsley and Eccles)
Q I want to drill down into something Ben talked about earlier: how can the Bill best meet its aims while supporting smaller businesses that might not have dedicated HR support? Carly, the Happy Business School describes itself as being
“on a mission to help organisations build people-centric workplace cultures, where happy people can thrive.”
Which measures in the Bill will be most transformative and help you in that mission?
Alison Hume (Labour, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Carly, you have experience in supporting businesses, including SMEs, to transform their processes and culture to become happy workplaces. How do you see the measures in the Bill making happier workplaces for people with disabilities and health conditions?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Carly, this question is to you as well. The number of questions coming to you reflects the fact that we need your mission to help us to be a happy, healthy, thriving workforce in Parliament. How can we use the Bill to communicate the measures available to businesses? We heard from a previous panel that businesses may not be aware of what is coming in. How can we use some of the transformative measures in the Bill to promote happy, healthy workplace cultures?
Marie Tidball (Labour, Penistone and Stocksbridge)
Q You have all spoken really comprehensively. Carly, I just want to push a bit more on what makes a happy employer. I was delighted to hear that you think the Bill will help raise that minimum floor and help employees. Again, you started to talk a bit there about how that then has an overall impact on the business. Could you really drill down for us on what it is that makes a happy employer?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Not very long, actually.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
I am going to move on to Anneliese Midgley for the last question very briefly, and with a brief answer.
Anneliese Midgley (Labour, Knowsley)
Q Cathryn, earlier you identified that the CMI said that a lot of good employers and good businesses have already adopted a lot of the measures in this Bill, and other panellists have identified that as well. Could you say a bit more about why you think good employers and businesses already practise a lot of the measures in this Bill?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Middleton South)
Thank you—that is a good point on which to finish. That brings us to the end of time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of the three witnesses before us in this sitting. I thank those witnesses for giving clear answers to the questions. The Committee will meet again this afternoon in the Boothroyd room.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I remind Members that questions are not limited to what is in the brief, but your questions must be within the scope of the Bill. In line with this morning’s session, for each panel of witnesses I propose to call the shadow Minister to ask the first question, then the Minister, and then the Liberal Democrat spokesperson. I will then go back and forth between the Government and Opposition sides. Anyone who wants to ask a question should catch my eye. We must stick to the cut-off times specified in the programme order, so I will interrupt questioning if necessary. I remind Members that they must declare any relevant interests both when speaking in Committee and when asking questions. We are being broadcast.
Before we start hearing from witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interests in connection with the Bill?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Vaz. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and to my membership of Unite and the GMB.
Nia Griffith (Labour, Llanelli)
I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and my membership of USDAW, the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers.
Michael Wheeler (Labour, Worsley and Eccles)
I refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and my membership of the GMB and USDAW.
Anneliese Midgley (Labour, Knowsley)
I refer to my declaration of interests and my membership of Unite and the GMB.
Alison Hume (Labour, Scarborough and Whitby)
I refer to my declaration of interests and my membership of Unison and the Writers’ Guild of Great Britain.
Jonathan Pearce (Labour, High Peak)
I refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I am a member of the GMB.
Laurence Turner (Labour, Birmingham Northfield)
I again refer to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and my membership of the GMB and Unite trade unions.
Alex McIntyre (Labour, Gloucester)
I am a member of the GMB and Community unions, and until the general election was a member of the Employment Lawyers Association.
Marie Tidball (Labour, Penistone and Stocksbridge)
I refer again to my declaration of interests and to my membership of the Community union, Unison and the GMB.
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
I refer Members to my declaration of interests and my membership of the GMB union.
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
I refer Members to my declaration of interests and to my membership of Unison and Community trade unions.
Examination of Witnesses
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from Allen Simpson, the deputy CEO of UKHospitality, and from Neil Carberry, chief executive of the Recruitment and Employment Confederation. We have until 2.30 pm for this panel. Would the witnesses introduce themselves briefly?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you very much. Greg Smith will ask the first question.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Thank you, Ms Vaz. It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair and to serve under your chairmanship.Q33
Good afternoon. May I start with Mr Simpson? UKHospitality has been quite critical of this Bill in the media and in a wider setting. You have just said you represent a very large number of people. Do you think after this Bill is passed and becomes an Act—I think we can safely assume it will, with the parliamentary arithmetic at the moment—there will be more, or fewer, people employed in hospitality in the United Kingdom?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Mr Carberry, I will come to you shortly, but Mr Simpson, to continue that theme: this is a pretty wide-ranging Bill with a lot of measures. Which of them do you think the Government have got wrong, which you would like to see either deleted or amended?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Can you give us a hint of the ambers? It is important that the Committee knows where different sectors are concerned.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q How many of the employees in the UK hospitality sector are currently on zero-hours contracts?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Have you had any feedback from your members on their willingness going forward to take on the very people you have just talked about—employees with caring responsibilities, students, people with complex situations in their lives who find a zero-hours contract useful—and whether some of them are reticent about taking people on in the new circumstances that this Bill would bring about?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Mr Carberry, if I can come to you, looking at those you represent, what is it in the Bill that you think is right, wrong or needs amendment?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Mr Simpson, can I take you back to your traffic light? We will go to amber, because you mentioned the notice of shift as an issue in the amber section. I am aware from the UKHospitality workforce strategy that there is a general view that the hoteliers charter is a model of good practice, which does require reasonable notice of shift. Could you explain a little more what your concerns are on that?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q That is helpful; thank you. I appreciate that we have not got much time, so I will ask just one more question, if that is all right, of Mr Carberry. Obviously your organisation prides itself on having members who absolutely comply with the standards set by law. Do you feel that the fair work agency will be a good vehicle to help drive up standards, and is there anything in particular that you would like to see it focus on?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q My first question is to Allen. I want to reflect on whether there is any differential in regional impact. London clearly has a very vibrant economy, whereas in parts of the world such as Torbay—where I am from—and the west country, it is not as vibrant. Do you see any difference in the impacts of this legislation regionally?
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q My second question is to you, Neil, although I do not know whether you will be able to answer it—I listen with interest. How could the legislation impact on employment opportunities for individuals who have a disability, whether that is a sensory, physical or learning disability?
Michael Wheeler (Labour, Worsley and Eccles)
Q This question is primarily for Allen and UKHospitality. How big of a challenge is retention in the hospitality sector? Do you agree with the Nationwide Caterers Association that one benefit of the measures in the Bill around guaranteed hours will be reduced staff turnover?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Before I call Nick Timothy, we do not have long left now, and other Members are indicating that they want to speak. Could questions be quick and answers be slightly shorter, too?
Nick Timothy (Conservative, West Suffolk)
My concern is for people who are more at the margins of the labour market. We have touched on this a bit, but I think it is really important that we understand that employing anybody has a risk. If you were to multiply the costs when things go wrong, the risk may not be taken in the first place. In the hospitality sector in my constituency, of which a lot is connected to horse racing, people are quite up front about the fact that headcounts are going to fall as a result of this, combined with the Budget. Can you give us a bit of quant and qual—an idea of the numbers who might not be employed as a result of these measures? Do you have any case studies or examples—of hoteliers, and so on—that might bring home the storyQ ?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
One last question.
Alison Hume (Labour, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q I have a question for you both. In 2023, there were 8,000 people working in the hospitality sector in my Scarborough and Whitby constituency. That is 20% of all employees, which is substantially higher than the average in the UK. In your view, do the Bill’s zero-hours contract clauses sufficiently cover seasonal work?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank both our witnesses for their evidence.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Good afternoon. We will now hear oral evidence from Jamie Cater, the senior policy manager for employment at Make UK, and Jim Bligh, the director of corporate affairs for the Food and Drink Federation. We have until 3 pm for this panel. Could the witnesses please briefly introduce themselves for the record?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Good afternoon, gentlemen. I will ask you the same questions I have asked most witnesses today. This is a thick Bill; there are lots of measures in it. In the interests of the people you represent in food, drink and manufacturing, which of those measures have the Government got wrong? Which are in the right ballpark, but should be amended? And which are right?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q We heard from witnesses in previous sessions that they worry that some measures in the Bill—on zero-hours contracts and some of the fire and rehire potential unintended consequences—will make some employers more reticent to take on a new hire, or to take a gamble on someone who might need a chance or second chance, or whatever it might be. Is that reflected in either of your sectors?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Good afternoon. I think you have generally been positive about the Bill, albeit with some caveats. How do you see the implementation of the Bill being of benefit to the businesses that you represent?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q You have both talked a little about the statutory probation periods, and I think you are more or less in the same place as us on how long they should be, albeit there is a bit of argument either side. Based on that, can I take it you agree that, as a matter of principle, removing the qualification period for unfair dismissal from two years is a good thing?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, Steve Darling.
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q Thank you for coming today. This is the same question for both representatives about my constituents in Torbay—a world of mostly small businesses. Do you have any reflections on how the Bill could be improved to be more supportive of small businesses?
Laurence Turner (Labour, Birmingham Northfield)
Q I want to ask you about the international dimension; I am thinking about manufacturing businesses. Do you have sites in other countries? Mondelēz Cadbury in south Birmingham comes to mind. Among your members that have exposure to different systems of employment law and labour market regulation, have you received any feedback on the Bill that is informed by a knowledge of different systems and practice?
Nick Timothy (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q The impact assessment says that the costs of the Bill are around £5 billion, but earlier we heard that that is actually probably an underestimate and it is likely to be a lot higher. Could you tell us a bit about where those costs will tend to fall for your sectors in particular and how they will relate to other challenges that businesses are going to face with the national insurance rise, the equalisation of the minimum wage and higher energy costs?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q I am an MP from Edinburgh, and obviously that is a university city; it is a city with a lot of tourism and hotels and hospitality, and we also have the festivals in August, so we see a lot of this kind of stuff. Looking around my constituency, I can see a real difference in how employers treat their staff, some of whom will be really impacted by this legislation, but a lot of whom will not be, because they are already above that.
I think, Mr Cater, you said that a lot of your organisations already go beyond the provisions that are based in this law. Do you think that the legislation could lead to more of a level playing field, where the organisations that are already treating their staff well are unaffected, but others would have to change and improve—a kind of levelling up in how people’s staff are treated?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We have a few seconds left.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. That brings us to the end of the allotted time for questions. I thank the two witnesses very much for their evidence.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from Gemma Griffin, vice-president of global crewing for DFDS, Martyn Gray, director of organising for Nautilus International, and Mick Lynch, general secretary of the RMT. We have until 3.40 pm for this panel. Could the witnesses briefly introduce themselves for the record?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you. I call Greg Smith, the Opposition spokesperson.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Good afternoon to the witnesses. When any wide-reaching legislation that is seeking to make a number of changes to employment law comes in, there are likely to be unintended consequences. I will put the question in two halves. To Ms Griffin and Mr Gray, do you see any unintended consequences that could damage your businesses or make you less likely to take on new staff? To Mr Lynch, who I suspect may come from the other side of the argument, do you think the Bill goes far enough?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q What about your ports-based staff—your land-based staff?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
But on the question about the unintended consequences of elements of the Bill—
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Yes.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Mr Gray?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Sure.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Do you have any views on the Bill’s provisions on trade union facility time?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I call the Minister, Justin Madders.
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Thank you, Ms Vaz. Good afternoon, everyone. Obviously we were all horrified at the way people were treated by P&O, and I think we share your critique that the previous Government’s response to that was not sufficient. Clearly, we are trying to address those issues in the Bill. Do you feel that it will be a good deterrent against employers basically calculating a financial issue as a way of trying to avoid their legal obligations on consultation?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q No, it is all very useful—thank you.
Let me pick up on something you said earlier, Mick, though others can answer as well if they want. You talked about injunctive relief as a potential solution to the threat of fire and rehire. We are consulting at the moment on measures including interim relief as a potential action that unions can take on behalf of their members. Can you say a little bit about why you would prefer injunctive relief, rather than interim relief?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Does anyone else want to respond?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q I would like to give a personal perspective. I feel that unfair employment laws can often fan the flames of tribalism. I look over the way at Europe, where there is a more consensual approach and a more collaborative culture. How could the Bill drive a more collaborative culture with employers and unions?
Anneliese Midgley (Labour, Knowsley)
Q I refer once again to the most high-profile case that we have seen in recent times, when P&O unlawfully sacked 800 workers, many of whom were your members and were impacted by that. At this morning’s evidence session, Matthew Percival from the CBI said:
“In the fire and rehire proposals, there is a risk that we might be making it easier to make people redundant than to change contracts”.
Do you agree?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I am going to try to get in three more Members in five minutes, but would you like to respond to that, Gemma?
Chris Law (Scottish National Party, Dundee Central)
I am focusing still on fire and rehire. Listening to the comments made in the last five minutes, I think the consensus is that we want to see the end of fire and rehire, and I completely support that. However, when you look at the detail of the Bill, there could well be a loophole to allow it to continue. There is a clause that says that there is an Q exception for those in “financial difficulties”. What are your thoughts on that? For example, who defines what the financial difficulties are and who decides how that is to be negotiated? For me, using the term “financial difficulties” is a loophole to enable any employer to say, “We are going to have to let you go in this circumstance.” Do you agree with that, or do you think more work needs to be done on it?
Peter Bedford (Conservative, Mid Leicestershire)
Mick, you mentioned that you felt there should be further legislation, which suggests that the Bill is falling short. Could you elaborate on what you would like to see the Government do if the Bill is falling shortQ ?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. I am sorry, but that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank all our witnesses for their evidence.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from Paul Nowak, general secretary of the TUC; Maggi Ferncombe, director of political strategy and transformation for Unison; Dave Moxham, deputy general secretary of the STUC; and Hannah Reed, co-ordinator of constitutional affairs for Unite. We have until 4.30 pm for this panel. I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves briefly for the record.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you. I call the shadow Minister, Greg Smith.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Thank you, Ms Vaz, and good afternoon to the witnesses. In the last session, it was suggested that this Bill might lead to the re-unionisation of the economy. Do you agree with that?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Before the other witnesses come in, the impact assessment suggests that the Bill will result in a £5 billion cost to business, and we heard this morning at a session with representatives from business that that was actually a lowball estimate. How do you work out that it might lead to increased wages if the cost on business is, in fact, going up?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q You used the term “working people”, which is something that some struggle to define. Can you define “working person”, and does that include someone who runs a business? Are they a working person?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q This is a question to all of you, off the back of the last answer. It was suggested during the last evidence session that this Bill does not go far enough. It is evident from the declarations made at the start of the sitting that the relationship between the trade union movement and the Labour party is symbiotic, so what more have you asked the Government to put into the Bill? Where do you want it to go further? Mick Lynch gave a very clear answer in the previous session. What are your respective unions’ greater asks of this Government?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Good afternoon, everyone. I want to start with a question to you, Paul. You have referenced this £13 billion benefit, which I think is from some recently published research by the TUC. Could you tell us a little more about what that will look like in terms of benefits to individuals?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q Thank you for that answer. You have certainly been able to quantify a lot of the evidence we have heard today about the benefits of the Bill. Does anyone want to add anything on the benefits to the economy and wider society?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q It seems clear that the RPC did not talk to any of you before producing its report. Can I ask you about something that came out in the evidence this morning? Some concern was expressed that where there is a recognition ballot and the numbers voting in it do not demonstrate a majority of workers in the workplace—it may be a simple majority of people who voted, but it is not an actual majority of workers—it may not be a true voice of the workforce. It was almost implicit that there will be another mechanism for that voice to be heard. I wondered if you had anything to say about those concerns.
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Does anyone else want to come back on that one?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you. I would just say to the panel that we have lots of Members who want to ask questions, so please be brief, and do not necessarily repeat what everyone else has said. If you want to put in written evidence, you can do that too. I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, Steve Darling.
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q Thank you, Chair. This has been touched on before, but there is something I really want to understand, if anybody can address it: productivity is a big issue for the British economy, so are there any opportunities that you see in this Bill for driving a bit harder towards that goal?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Thank you, panel, for your thoughts and representations today. My constituency of Stratford and Bow has a rich history—I am sad that the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire is not here at the moment to listen to this part—and we are rooted in the fight for working people’s rights. It is the site of the 1888 London Bryant and May strike, better known as the matchgirls’ strike.
Paul, 136 years ago, Sarah Chapman was first elected as the TUC rep from the then-formed Matchmakers’ Union. She fought ardently for women’s rights, and she made great representations at the TUC for women’s rights, but it has been 136 years and there is still much more to do for women in the workplace. I am really pleased to see that the TUC has said that
“Labour’s Employment Rights Bill is so vital for women’s pay and equality.”
I am keen to hear your thoughts on why you think that is, and other reflections from the panel.
Chris Law (Scottish National Party, Dundee Central)
Q Following on from Mr Moxham’s comments, I wonder whether there are parts of this UK-wide Bill that give you concern for employment rights in devolved nations where devolved Governments already have responsibility for employment relations? Is it not time that employment law was devolved, as is supported by the STUC, TUC and Scottish Labour, and as already exists in Northern Ireland? That is not least because it will help to protect us from future Conservative Governments that may wish to repeal all the good legislation that is coming forward.
Marie Tidball (Labour, Penistone and Stocksbridge)
Q Why are the changes to statutory sick pay in the Bill so significant, and what opportunities do they bring for disabled workers and those who have long-term health conditions?
Nick Timothy (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q I have three very quick questions, which I think you can answer very quickly. You are obviously very pleased with the Bill, and I know that countervailing power is important and matters. First, would you characterise this as a fundamental act of rebalancing between capital and organised labour? Secondly, as the Bill was prepared, how was the relationship with the Department? How welcoming was it? Did Ministers ensure that you had an open door? Thirdly, I know you hope that the Bill means a more collaborative relationship with employers in the way that you have described, but obviously the right to withdraw your labour is a very powerful thing. Do you think there is a possibility that we will ultimately see more strikes as a result of the Bill?
Alex McIntyre (Labour, Gloucester)
Q We have heard a lot today from other witnesses about the benefits of the flexibility of zero-hours contracts to businesses. Could you tell us a little bit about the impact on your members of the uncertainty of zero-hours contracts?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you all for your evidence. We now move to the next panel.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from Jemima Olchawski, chief executive officer of the Fawcett Society, and Joeli Brearley, founder and CEO of Pregnant Then Screwed. We have until 5 pm for this panel. Could the witnesses briefly introduce themselves for the record?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you. I call the shadow Minister, Greg Smith.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Thank you for being with us. Can you give us your view on whether the Bill goes far enough to combat the issues that you campaign on, particularly women’s rights at work? Where would you like to see elements of it amended, either to make it stronger or to get rid of things that might have unintended consequences, and are you concerned about any particular areas of the Bill either not delivering what they say they will or delivering something completely different?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q I have just one question, mainly for Jemima, but you are welcome to chip in, Joeli. The Regulatory Policy Committee has suggested that there is no evidence base for third-party harassment. Do you have any thoughts on that criticism?
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q I visited Torquay girls’ grammar school in my constituency of Torbay some time ago, and met the head and some of the sixth-form students who were experiencing sexual harassment in the workplace throughout Torbay. Does the proposed legislation go far enough? I am particularly thinking of young people who may lack confidence. What could be built in to support them to call it out, so that it is not just seen—as other people might call it—as a bit of a banter or something like that? It is deeply hurtful and painful for those individuals, and the sooner we give them support the better. I welcome your reflections on how the Bill could be strengthened in this area.
Alison Hume (Labour, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Ms Brearley, I have read that you will be leaving your role in the new year, so may I congratulate you on all you have achieved with your organisation, and on being the tremendous advocate you have been for the causes of women’s rights and equal work? When you look back at the journey that the conversation about gender equality has been on since you founded your organisation 10 years ago, do you feel that the steps in the Bill have the potential to make lasting progress?
Marie Tidball (Labour, Penistone and Stocksbridge)
Q Jemima, you described the Bill as a “win for women”. Why do you feel the measures in the Bill are so transformative, and how will they benefit working families, women and disabled women?
Chris Law (Scottish National Party, Dundee Central)
Q I wanted to explore something a bit more, Joeli, because my ears pricked up when you talked about non-disclosure agreements and the thousands that sign away the complete rights of women. Could you tell me a bit more about your research, and could you also tell us a bit about what lessons have been learned from Ireland? I really want to explore that.
Chris Law (Scottish National Party, Dundee Central)
Ninety per cent?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Thank you both for your representations. Joeli, I follow your work and have a lot of friends who have followed Pregnant Then Screwed—thank you. Jemima, I have read the Fawcett Society’s report on the gender pay gap, and heard your views here. Listening to you both today has put some new questions in my head on top of those that I already wanted to ask.
You have both talked about maternity provisions and what they could mean for the country. More broadly, what is the benefit to the economy and to businesses of having stronger maternity provisions as set out in the Bill?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Yes, maternity rights.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Order. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you both for your evidence. We now move to the next panel.
Examination of Witness
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
We will now hear evidence from Alasdair Reisner, CEO of the Civil Engineering Contractors Association. We have until 5.15 pm for this witness. Could you set out for the record who you are and your background?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
Thank you. I call the shadow Minister.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Good afternoon, and thank you for joining us for this session late in the day. The Bill is multifaceted. It has a lot of measures in it. It could rapidly become a Christmas tree Bill. What do those you represent see as the good elements of it? More significantly, what are the areas that perhaps need amendment or change to avoid unintended consequences, and what straightforwardly will not work for you?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Mid Buckinghamshire)
Q Do you have a view on how it would be best to structure change around specific single projects like the building of a railway station, which might take two, three or four years and then that is it; there is a cliff edge and the project is over? How would you best structure that?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Q I think you said you had the largest collective agreement in the country—congratulations on that. Could you tell us a bit more about what your members see as the advantages of that?
Justin Madders (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Bromborough)
Thank you.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Steve Darling (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)
Q Not that long ago, I met Sovereign Housing Association about developing more social rented housing in my constituency of Torbay. It shared that in the west of England, one of the biggest issues is the lack of medium-sized builders to help to deliver this good. I am sure that is the case elsewhere in the country as well. Do you see the Bill having a positive impact on developing those potential positive engines of change for our country, or having a negative impact? What would you change?
Laurence Turner (Labour, Birmingham Northfield)
I think it is common ground that there are productivity challenges in construction that are particular to the industry, as well as a historical fragmentation of employment relationships. Do you see any opportunities for marrying the levelling up of employment standards with productivity gains? The industry has done some very important work on mental health, and I want to put on the record my appreciation of CECA’s positive role in supporting it.Q
Laurence Turner (Labour, Birmingham Northfield)
Do you see opportunities for marrying the levelling up of employment standards with productivity gains in construction?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q I am particularly interested in how migration has affected the labour market. I know the construction industry has seen a lot of it, and there has certainly been a big public perception—whether it is true in reality is up for debate—that sectors that saw high levels of migration over the past 10 or 15 years also saw a degradation in working standards through the spread of zero-hours contracts, wage undercutting, and fire and rehire. Do you agree with that assessment—not that it is the case, but that there is that perception? Would strengthening workers’ rights as proposed in the Bill assure employees in your industry, who have a perception that global events—migration flows or changes in how capitalism works—affect them?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q The point was about the perception that that is the case. Do you think that measures such as this will help combat that perception?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
In the last minute, I call Jon Pearce.
Jonathan Pearce (Labour, High Peak)
Q You are probably the second or third witness who has raised the idea that the removal of the “one establishment” reference will require consultation with people who are not at risk of redundancy. I am interested in that interpretation, because you would need to consult only with affected employees and their representatives, so it would be only people who are at risk of redundancy or are to be made redundant. Could you clarify your understanding of that?
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
On behalf of the Committee, let me say thank you very much for your evidence. You are definitely not a tail-end Charlie.
Valerie Vaz (Labour, Walsall and Bloxwich)
That brings us to the end of today’s session. The Committee will meet again at 11.30 am on Thursday 28 November to continue hearing oral evidence on the Bill.