Terrorism (Protection of Premises) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 29 October 2024.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we begin, I have some rules to announce. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members could email speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
I beg to move,
That—
1. the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 29 October) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 29 October;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 31 October;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 5 November;
(d) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 12 November;
(e) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 14 November;
(f) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 19 November;
2. the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
TABLE
Date
Time
Witness
Tuesday 29 October
Until no later than 10.00 am
Figen Murray; Brendan Cox
Until no later than 10.20 am
Andy Burnham
Until no later than 10.50 am
National Association of Local Councils; Society of Local Council Clerks
Until no later than 11.25 am
Ambassador Theatre Group; The Royal Ballet and Opera
Until no later than 2.20 pm
Metropolitan Police Service
Until no later than 2.50 pm
Federation of Small Businesses; The Counter Terrorism Business Information Exchange (CTBIE)
Until no later than 3.10 pm
Sport and Recreation Alliance
Until no later than 3.40 pm
UKHospitality; The Night Time Industries Association
Until no later than 4.10 pm
The Concert Promoters Association; LIVE (Live Industry Venues & Entertainment Ltd)
Until no later than 4.30 pm
The Association of University Chief Security Officers
Until no later than 4.50 pm
Action with Communities in Rural England (ACRE)
Until no later than 5.10 pm
Home Office
3. proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 and 2; Schedules 1 and 2; Clauses 3 to 12; Schedule 3; Clauses 13 to 34; Schedule 4; Clauses 35 to 38; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
4. the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Thursday 19 November
I am delighted to serve under your chairship, Dame Siobhain. I look forward to detailed discussion of the provisions in the Bill with my hon. Friends on the Labour Benches and with the right hon. and hon. Members of the Opposition. On Second Reading, there was extensive agreement across the House about the merits of the Bill, not least among hon. Members who are now serving in Committee. I welcome that and trust that we will continue in that constructive spirit. I believe that the resolution before us will provide the Committee with enough time to scrutinise this important Bill and I invite the Committee to agree it.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We are now sitting in public again and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make declarations of interest in connection with the Bill? None do, so we will begin to hear oral evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I welcome our first witnesses this morning. The Committee and I are delighted that you are our first witnesses and I congratulate you on all your efforts in relation to the Bill. I will be grateful if you could introduce yourselves.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. We must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. This panel will have until 10 am, and I call the Minister to ask the first questions.
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q I extend a warm welcome to both witnesses, and I offer you the Committee’s thanks for your evidence this morning. I also take the opportunity to reiterate the tributes that I paid to you both on Second Reading. Your work has been incredibly impressive and inspiring and I know that the whole Committee and the wider House are hugely grateful for it. May I begin at the beginning and ask you both to say why you think we need this legislation and what its impact will be?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Shadow Minister, do you have any questions?
Thomas Tugendhat (Conservative, Tonbridge)
I have had the great privilege of meeting Figen and Brendan over many months on this, so I have no questions.
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
I reiterate your comments, Dame Siobhain, about the admiration we all hold for Figen and Brendan and for the campaigning that they have done. Figen is a constituent of mine and I know we are all very proud of her in Macclesfield. May I ask you, Figen, what you think is the most important element of this BillQ ?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Thank you both for coming; I echo the words of everyone else this morning so far. Are Q there any recommendations from the Manchester Arena inquiry that this Bill would not address?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Can I ask a bit more about the reaction of organisations that do fall in scope? Can you tell us a bit about what their experience has been, any teething problems that they have had and how they have adapted in Manchester as they have implemented itQ ?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Thank you.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
There are no further questions, so I thank both witnesses for their contributions this morning. We will move on to our next guest, who is Andy Burnham.
Examination of Witness
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We have until 10.20 am for this oral evidence session. Will the witness please introduce himself for the record?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q Good morning, Andy. It is always very good to see you. As the Mayor—perhaps I should call you “Mr Mayor”—you are uniquely well placed not only to understand the impact of the Manchester Arena bombing but, as is often the case in Greater Manchester, to be a real trailblazer in looking at what the impact of Martyn’s law might be on business. Could you say something about what you think will be the impact of the Bill on businesses, based on your experiences in Greater Manchester?
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q How have businesses reacted as Manchester has led the way on Martyn’s law? How onerous have they found it? What is the practical experience?
Linsey Farnsworth (Labour, Amber Valley)
It is clear that the approach in Manchester has been very collaborative with businesses, local authorities and the community. Do you have any thoughts on the guidance that could be given to local authorities about this Bill going forwardQ ?
Linsey Farnsworth (Labour, Amber Valley)
indicated assent.
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
What logistical challenges do you foresee in implementing Martyn’s law currently, based on the implementations that you have already made, for small operating venues and venues that have limited staff and fundingQ ?
Connor Rand (Labour, Altrincham and Sale West)
The whole country saw how Greater Manchester came together after the arena bombings, and we have heard about the importance of not letting the memory of the event affect how we live our day-to-day lives. I wonder whether you can talk about the buy-in from local people and local communities. How important is it to the people of Greater Manchester and the city that lessons are learned and this legislation is implemented?Q
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q I would like to ask about the impact that you think the legislation will have on events. My constituency is in Edinburgh. We have the Edinburgh festival in August, where suddenly we have 5,000 events taking place in one month and 50,000 tickets being sold in venues across the city. How do you think this legislation will help cities like Edinburgh, where we have large-scale events—especially when they are distributed? I should also say that Edinburgh city council is very supportive of this legislation. It recognises its power.
Paul Waugh (Labour/Co-operative, Rochdale)
Thank you, Andy, and thanks also to Figen and Brendan. You all make a really powerful case for why strengthening security actually helps business—it is not just helping the public, but helping businesses to thrive because then they can attract people in a secure, safe environment. However, at the same time, some smaller, independent, live concert promoters, very small-scale people, are worried about the impact on them.Q
The reason Martyn went to this gig was the reason a lot of people go to gigs—they love music. You love music. Greater Manchester, and Manchester itself, is fantastic for music. Could you explain what is happening in Manchester locally to reassure some of those small-scale live music people, who are saying that this could put them out of business—“We’re not the big boys, we’re not the arena, how can we cope with this and make everyone feel safe without changing our way of life?” As Brendan said, not changing our way of life is ultimately the purpose of this legislation.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions, I thank Mayor Burnham for his evidence. We move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Q We have until 10.50 am. Can the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q Good morning to you both and thank you for giving evidence to the Committee.
My question is for Councillor Stevens. I know that you have had a long-standing interest in the process. As part of the pre-legislative scrutiny in the previous Parliament, I know that a number of concerns were raised around proportionality and thresholds, and also around the lack of clarity with regard to the regulator. I would be grateful for your view on the changes that have been made to the Bill since. Also, how receptive do you think local councillors will be to those changes?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q It was about the extent to which local councillors will be receptive to those changes.
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
Q Do you anticipate that certain types of community events or venues may struggle to meet the requirements due to the nature of their spaces, such as historic venues with limited security options?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q Could I ask about the responsibility being placed on specific officers? As we all know, in the days after a terrorist attack there is a lot of media attention and emotions are very high. What would it be like for the person responsible for compliance, or named as the one supposed to do something that might not be a very big part of their job or something that they had only received limited training for? What protections do you think would be in place for those officers to be prepared for that and to navigate that scenario?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q We have talked about the resourcefulness of town clerks. We have clerks in Scotland; I know the officers and they are very resourceful. I know local authority resourcing is a huge issue. Is this adding another layer of responsibility that you are concerned about, or is this another responsibility that is quite capable of being absorbed in the current broad resource envelope?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
It is reassuring to hear that. Thank you.
Ben Maguire (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
ThankQ you for giving evidence today. I represent a rural constituency, North Cornwall, which has 74 parish councils. I know from experience it can be really difficult to get parish councillors to stand for these positions. I am interested to get your views on how these new regulations may put off parish councillors from taking part in their local councils—if at all.
Ben Maguire (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
Q Sorry, what would be the costs?
Ben Maguire (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
In terms of training?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions from members of the Committee, I thank Councillor Stevens and Helen Ball for their evidence this morning. We will constitute the next panel.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
For this oral evidence session, we have until 11.25 am. Can the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Q Thank you all for coming. This question is open to all of you: what impact will the Bill have on your venues?
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
Q What particular challenges do you foresee in conducting regular risk assessments for venues that have changing expositions, seasonal events, shift working or flows?
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q Have you a view on the designation of the SIA as the regulator?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q We have talked a lot about the proportionality and opportunity costs that come with these changes. Could you say a bit about what it is like in your sector? If there were a terrorist attack, that would obviously be really awful for the venue and the people involved, but if the public more broadly did not feel safe going to venues, would that have an impact on your ability to operate? How sensitive is your sector to those fluctuations? Put another way, is the proportionality correct? The impact on your sector could be quite significant.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
As no other members of the Committee have questions, may I thank all our witnesses for their evidence this morning? That brings us to the end of our morning session. The Committee will continue taking oral evidence at 2 pm, here in the Boothroyd Room.
Examination of Witness
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We come now to our fifth panel for the oral evidence session. We have until 2020. Can the assistant commissioner for specialist operations at the Metropolitan police, Matt Jukes, introduce himself to members of the panel?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I apologise, but I may have inadvertently given a date rather than a time. This panel lasts until 2.20 pm.
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q24 Assistant Commissioner, good afternoon. Thank you for appearing in front of the Committee today and more generally, thank you to you and your officers for the incredibly important work that you do to keep the public safe. It is hugely appreciated.
I am conscious that some, but not all, members of the Committee have spent quite a lot of time thinking about the nature of the threat that we face. You are supremely well placed, given your experience, to talk about the nature of the threat. I know that there will be limitations on what you can say. However, it would be incredibly helpful for the Committee if, based on your extensive experience of policing, you were able to say something about the nature of the terrorist threat that we face today and how that compares with, say, 10 years ago. Can you also say something about your assessment of the legislation we are dealing with and its benefits?
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Thank you for your remarks, which are useful to hear. Out of interest, looking back at terrorist attacks that have happened over the years, do you think the Bill could have made a difference if it had been in place?Q
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Thank you for your evidence. The independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, Jonathan Hall, said of the 2023 draft Bill that “careful attention” needs to be given to the risk ofQ
“displacing attacks from locations within scope of the Bill to a location out of scope”.
Do you want to comment on that? Then I will invite you to talk about thresholds, since you said that you had some thoughts on that.
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
That is really helpful. Thank you.
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
Assistant Commissioner, thank youQ . First, I associate myself with the words of the Minister earlier in thanking you and your colleagues in the wider service for your work. What is your view on the investigatory and enforcement powers in the Bill? Do you have any concerns about them?
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
You mentioned to the Home Affairs Committee that you would like to see a regulator in place that could provide intervention support and improved notices. Do you feel that the Security Industry Authority is the right regulatorQ ?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
A timely finish. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witness on behalf of the Committee.
Examination of Witnesses
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Thank you all. For this oral evidence session we have until 2.50 pm. Can the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q Thank you for attending; we are very grateful, not least because I know the Committee is particularly keen to hear from the business community, and your evidence this afternoon will be helpful to us. My question is for Mr Sharpley. I know you have huge experience in this area and that, as part of the pre-legislative scrutiny process, you appeared as a witness in front of the Home Affairs Committee back in June 2023. At that point, there were some concerns centred around capacity calculations, thresholds and the identity of the regulator. I am sure you will have seen that there have been extensive changes to the legislation over the intervening period. Has the clarity now in place around the types of procedures and measures that business would be required to implement provided some of the assurance you were seeking back in June 2023?
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q Mr Frost, can I ask you to talk a little bit about what the day-to-day impact would be on the stores that you are responsible for, in practical terms?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I call Sonia Cooper—sorry, Sonia Kumar. I’m making names and times up today! I apologise.
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
Q That is okay, I understood.
How do you anticipate Martyn’s law affecting customer experience, especially for small retailers who may not have visible security measures in place?
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
Yes, that is for all three of you.
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
Q Kind of. My question is more about the customer experience. You have spoken about the retailer point of view, but do you think there will be an effect on customer experience for those retailers, including small retailers, that do not have visible security measures?
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Q I echo the Minister’s comments and thank you for coming today; I really value the input of businesses. The Home Affairs Committee argued that the capacity figure of 100 for standard duty premises was “disproportionate” and “burdensome”. What impact do you think the new capacity—of 200, at the moment—will have on small businesses and micro-sized businesses? That question is for anyone.
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Yes.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence, and we will move on to the next panel.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
For this oral evidence session, we will have until 3.10 pm. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q Good afternoon, and thank you for appearing in front of the Committee; we appreciate it. I have a couple of reasonably specific questions. What are your views on the proposed changes to the Bill, particularly in relation to the change in capacity calculations, where responsible persons are now being asked to identify the number of people reasonably expected to be on the premises at the same time? We hope that you will welcome that.
Secondly, we would like to get a sense of your views on the proposed changes in relation to the addition of the “reasonably practicable” standard. Again, we hope you will welcome that change. Your sense of those two changes would be very much appreciated.
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
Q What unique challenges do you foresee for community-based sports venues, such as the community boxing club in Dudley, in conducting and obtaining regular risk assessments, given the varied events types, participants and demographics?
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Q Where premises are in the scope of the Bill, is it clear to you who the person responsible would be?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
As there are no further questions from Committee members, let me thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We have Kate Nicholls OBE, the chief executive of UKHospitality, in the Committee Room with us, and we are joined via Zoom by Mike Kill, the chief executive of the Night Time Industries Association. We have until 3.40 pm for this oral evidence session. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Good afternoon to you both. Thank you very much for appearing before the Committee today: you have a particularly valuable insight and we are looking forward to hearing from you.
We heard earlier from Mayor Andy Burnham, who was very positive about the impact that these measures are already having on the hospitality sector in Greater Manchester. I want to get a sense of whether that accords with your analysis of the impact of these measures on the hospitality sector nationally. It was very positive to hear the good news story from Greater Manchester, with the way it has been embraced by the hospitality businesses there, but it would be good to get your sense of whether there should be the same approach right around the country.
Sonia Kumar (Labour, Dudley)
Q How might the increased security requirements impact staffing for night-time venues, particularly with training and retaining part-time or seasonal workers? I think this question might be better for Mike.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions from members of the panel—
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Sorry, Ms McDonagh—I was going to ask a question.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Oh, gosh!
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q No, it is my fault. I wanted to just ask a quick question about penalties. Do our witnesses have any views on what is outlined around penalties?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Are there any other questions for the panel? I want to ensure I do not miss anybody again. If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
I understand that we may be so far ahead of ourselves that not all the witnesses for the next panel are here.
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Dame Siobhain, may I propose that we change the order of the panel of witnesses, while remaining within the provisions of the programme order?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Does anyone in the Committee object? No.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
For this evidence session, we have until 4.10 pm, so you could be answering questions for a very long time, Mr Leggett. Please could you introduce yourself for the record? Thank you for your flexibility.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I call the Minister.
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
I am happy to pass.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Okay. I call Tim Roca.
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q Mr Leggett, could you give your views on the change of the venue capacity threshold from 100 to 200?
Katie Lam (Conservative, Weald of Kent)
We have heard quite a lot today about the fiscal impact on businesses, the training and the timing, but many of the organisations the Bill will catch are run by volunteers. There certainly would have been more caught under the 100 threshold, but I am interested to hear your thoughts about the 200 threshold. What do you think the Bill will mean for those organisations? Do you have a sense of the challenges that might throw up?Q
Katie Lam (Conservative, Weald of Kent)
That would be helpful.
Paul Waugh (Labour/Co-operative, Rochdale)
What is your view on the enforcement powers of the regulator contained in the Bill?Q
Paul Waugh (Labour/Co-operative, Rochdale)
Q So is it fair to say that, because you are satisfied with the increase from 100 to 200, a lot of those concerns have fallen away?
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Q During its scrutiny of the previous draft Bill, the Home Affairs Committee argued that the purpose of the draft Bill was not clear. In your opinion, how clear is the purpose of the Bill in its current form?
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Q On the point you made earlier about those volunteer-led organisations being safe 365 days a year, how confident are you that those volunteers and community venues would be sufficiently prepared in the event of an attack? I am thinking about the recent horrible attacks that we saw in Southport, and what would have happened if there were mechanisms in place then. How confident are you, in your experience of those venues, that they would be prepared and equipped in the event of a similar horrific incident?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Thank you. If there are no further questions, I thank the witness for his evidence and his flexibility.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Our next witnesses are Jon Collins, chief executive of LIVE, and Melvin Benn, spokesman for the Concert Promoters Association. This is now panel 10 of the oral evidence session, and we have until 4.30 pm. Could the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
Q Good afternoon to you both, and thank you for appearing in front of the Committee. It is much appreciated. My question is for Mr Collins. First, thank you for your consistent and constructive approach throughout this process, which has been appreciated. On the basis that I suspect you might be asked some more general questions, I wanted to ask you a specific one: how do you see the legislation interacting with the events sector’s already established security procedures?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Can I follow up on that? That is very interesting —what would drive that kind of conflict? I am Scottish and represent a Scottish constituency, and sometimes some elements are devolved and some are not, so I know it can be difficult for organisations with a footprint across the UK to follow different regulations. Is that the level of conflict you are talking about, or is it more that they would be speaking at cross purposes and there needs to be harmonisation?Q
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q But the Bill does not introduce that conflict. If there was a conflict between getting people through the door very quickly or having them queueing outside—in a festival trying to make a decision —that sort of thought process already exists.
Paul Waugh (Labour/Co-operative, Rochdale)
Q I asked Andy Burnham this morning what protections there would be for smaller, live music venues, and to seek some reassurance about what happened in Manchester. He said that in Manchester, voluntary measures have worked very well. His solution is to hug people close, in terms of small venues—listen to them, ask them what they want and how they can make it viable, for both the public and the venues. He said that there would be low to zero costs for smaller venues of between 200 and 400 capacity. What is your assessment of that?
Paul Waugh (Labour/Co-operative, Rochdale)
Q May I press you a little further? My question was about Andy Burnham’s assessment that it could be zero to low cost for smaller venues—we are talking about a capacity of 200 to 400. What is the average profit on a concert like that, if there even is any? What is your assessment of what the cost would be under this Bill? Are we talking about individual bag checks that would need to be funded? What are we talking about?
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q The Home Office’s estimated costs are just over £3,000 for the standard tier. We heard this morning from a number of witnesses about the exercises that Manchester has done with a really wide range of businesses there, all the way from Depot Mayfield, which has a capacity of more than 30,000, to small and medium-sized nightclubs, such as Matt and Phred’s, Band on the Wall and hotels. I was struck by the information I saw from Manchester city council saying that in those desktop exercises, it was unanimous that the financial impact and operational issues were not actually that onerous in the view of the people attending those sessions. I would say that that sounds quite positive. Can you comment on that?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q You are making a really interesting point. To follow up on that, do you accept that there are two categories of organisations? There will be some where the inspector will find that they are doing everything that they should be, so their costs will be low, but there will be some that are not—otherwise, there would be no need at all for this legislation—and costs will be involved there. That is the open-ended component.
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q That is from the point of view of your industry, but we are also talking about places of worship, schools and other places.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Examination of Witness
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
For this oral evidence session we have until 4.50 pm. I would be grateful if the witness introduced himself for the record.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I call the Minister to ask a question.
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley North)
I will leave that to others.
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q I worked in higher education, so I know that there are quite a lot of regulators already knocking around. I wondered what your view was about the SIA being designated as the regulator, as far as the legislation is concerned.
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
What is your view on what the Bill would look like in practice? Could you give us a bit of an overview of the reality of what it would look like on the ground for your sector, and how you judge the level of compliance and compliance risk you would be taking on board?Q
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Q In your view, does the Bill make it clear where the liabilities may lie between premises owners and event organisers?
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q I guess that in universities, lots of student unions run venues. Student unions are separate from, but part of, universities. What conversations have you had, or not had, with student union colleagues to make sure that they are aware of the legislation and its impact?
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
It does. Thank you.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witness for his evidence. We will move on to our next and final panel. Thank you very much.
Examination of Witnesses
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Minister. For this final panel, we have until 5.10 pm. Can the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Paul Waugh (Labour/Co-operative, Rochdale)
Q Minister, can you explain to us why you increased the standard tier capacity from 100 to 200? Can you answer some of the concerns raised this morning by both Figen Murray and Andy Burnham on that point?
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q Thank you for what you have set out. We have heard in the sessions about how some wanted to be at a lower threshold and some at a higher one. I can understand that you have to pick a number somewhere in between, so it makes sense in how you have set that out.
On compliance and how you are dealing with organisations that do not comply, obviously the hope would be that as many organisations as you come across are complying and doing this kind of thinking already. We have heard about how things like licensing regimes pretty much encourage a lot of organisations to do compliance. Can you talk about why you have set the threshold for non-compliance at that maximum and what the process was in deciding that?
Kirith Entwistle (Labour, Bolton North East)
Q How are the Government working with bodies within the scope of the Bill to plan and prepare for its implementation, and will there be enough time for organisations to prepare?
Katie Lam (Conservative, Weald of Kent)
Q Can I ask a bit more about “from time to time” and what we consider that to mean? I am thinking specifically about the fact that I have a few large churches in my constituency that might have one or two events a year when they might have 200 people present. Are they included or excluded?
Tim Roca (Labour, Macclesfield)
Q I want to ask specifically about compliance notices. Why does the offence of failing to comply with a compliance notice apply only to enhanced-duty premises?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Matt Bishop, do you still want to ask a question?
Matt Bishop (Labour, Forest of Dean)
No thank you, Dame Siobhain.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I call Chris Murray.
Chris Murray (Labour, Edinburgh East and Musselburgh)
Q You talked about the proposal for the SIA to be the regulator. Why did you choose the SIA as the regulator? How should an organisation respond when it perceives that there is a conflict between what the SIA is asking it to do and what other legal rules, such as licensing, ask it to do?
Katie Lam (Conservative, Weald of Kent)
Q I want to follow up on thresholds. If I understand this correctly, there was previously this idea of capacity, and that has been changed to this idea of reasonable expectation. If I ran a venue that had a capacity of 220 people, could I decide to only ever sell 195 tickets and I am not caught? Is that how this will work?
Katie Lam (Conservative, Weald of Kent)
Q But we have moved away from this literal idea of size and capacity.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the Minister and Ms Bartlett for their evidence. That brings us to the end of today’s session. The Committee will meet again at 11.30 am on Thursday to commence line-by-line consideration of the Bill.