Great British Energy Bill
Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2024.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast—Big Brother, so watch your words.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Copies of written evidence will be made available on the desk in the Committee Room.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We are now sitting in public again and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, does any Member wish to make a declaration of interest in connection with the Bill?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
My husband is company secretary of Sheffield Renewables, a community energy project in Sheffield that generates energy.
Andrew Pakes (Labour/Co-operative, Peterborough)
This is registered, but I have been told to say it out loud: I am a member of the GMB, which is appearing before us later, and before the election I was the deputy general secretary of Prospect, which is also speaking to us this morning.
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
I am also a member of the GMB.
Michael Shanks (Labour, Rutherglen)
I am also a member of the GMB.
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
I am also a member of the GMB.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
I am also a member of the GMB.
Josh MacAlister (Labour, Whitehaven and Workington)
I am also a member of the GMB.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
I am not!
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
For full transparency, I am a member of Unison.
Examination of Witness
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We will begin by hearing oral evidence from Mr Juergen Maier, chair of Great British Energy and of Digital Catapult. Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind Members that all questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. It is a short and quite a narrow Bill, and if you stray I will tell you off, so do not stray in the first place. We must stick to the timings; for the first evidence session we have until 9.50 am.
Will the witness introduce himself for the record?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Good morning, Mr Maier, and thank you for joining us this morning. Congratulations on your appointment as chair of Great British Energy.
It was announced with great fanfare at the Labour party conference that the new headquarters of Great British Energy would be in Aberdeen. What does that actually mean? What will the HQ actually do? How many people will be employed at the HQ?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q The overarching aim of GB Energy is to speed up the transition to invest in new and emerging technologies. When your time as chair has ended and you look back, what will you judge as success?
Catherine Fookes (Labour, Monmouthshire)
Welcome, Mr Maier. It is great to meet you—thank you for coming before the Committee. In Monmouthshire, we have seen the benefit of a lot of community energy projects, such as solar power on the Bridges community centre in Monmouth. In Wales, we have also seen lots of hydro projects in community energy, such as Ynni Ogwen in Bangor. Can you share how you think the Bill’s provisions will support community energy projects in the whole of BritainQ and Wales?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Thank you for joining us this morning, Mr Maier. May I go back to your answer to a previous question? I do not think you quite clarified how many jobs would be in Aberdeen. If I picked you up correctly, you said that you expected those jobs to be operational engineering jobs. Could you elaborate on that? Could you give a steer or a little clarity on what you expect GB Energy to do in practice? The Bill states that the Secretary of State will provide clarity subsequently, but there is a lot of discourse in the public domain about what GB Energy will actually doQ .
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Am I okay to ask one more question, Chair?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
A quickie.
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q In that context, when do you expect GB Energy to bring down energy bills, as promised?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We are straying from the scope, yes. I call Torcuil Crichton.
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Q Good morning, Mr Maier. Following on from Catherine’s questions, can you highlight how GB Energy will involve communities in the renewable transition? What kind of benefits will there be? The Secretary of State spoke about a mandatory community benefit.
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
And economic benefit too, we hope.
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Good morning, Mr Maier. It is very good to see you here. I have some questions about the overall aims that the Bill and the company are trying to achieve. You have just said that it will be an enabler, so we have to imagine it as something that will happen before any contracts for difference are attributed. It is an enabler to make people and companies ready to bid into the CfDs, for example. Is that how you see the role? People are used to the status quo, and the CfDs have been very successful. Some companies are wondering how it is all going to fit togetherQ .
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
So—
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. Is this within the scope of the Bill? Our last question will be at 9.47 am, and four more Members have indicated that they wish to come in.
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Q Does the Bill give us enough clarity? How will other financial institutions, such as the UK Infrastructure Bank or the British Business Bank, support what GB Energy is trying to do? The Bill is very short, so I wonder whether there is enough scope within it to explain that to investors.
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Q I have one last question about the timeframes, which are very vague. The Bill states:
“The Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities for Great British Energy.”
Do you have any idea of when we can expect that statement to be laid before Parliament?
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Mr Maier, you have talked about how local communities will benefit from community energy; you mentioned floating offshore wind off the east coast of the United Kingdom. Down in Cornwall, we are very close to the Celtic sea opportunity, which is between us and Wales. Could you elaborate on the benefits, particularly the social benefits, that may come from the Celtic sea development in an area like Cornwall, which is one of the most deprived in the UKQ ?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. We are moving outside the scope of the Bill.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Good morning, Mr Maier. The Bill states that GB Energy will be involved in the supply and storage of clean energy. It goes on to say that clean energy is fromQ
“sources other than fossil fuels”.
Where is the cut-off? With things like blue hydrogen, there is a crossover: fossil fuels are involved, but the product is not necessarily what you would call a fossil fuel. Where does GB Energy come in?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
In that respect, we would still need fossil fuels—oil and gas—going forward to help the transition.
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Welcome, Mr Maier. It is good to hear your reassurances about communities being kept at the heart of this. You have told us about renewables, about offshore and about clean energy. As we have heard, it is a short Bill, but I would welcome your thoughts on what the Bill tells us about the objects and the strategic priorities of GB Energy and whether, in your view, it gives you enough detail to carry out your work.
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
Welcome, Mr Maier. The main thing for me is the public accountability of GB Energy. You are very clear that the Bill gives you strategic direction. How do you feel that it also provides for public accountability for the money being invested or co-investedQ ?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. That is the end of our first panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We will now hear oral evidence from Mika Minio-Paluello, who is the senior policy officer for industry and climate at the TUC, and Mike Clancy, who is the general secretary of the Prospect union. We have until 10.20 am for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce yourselves—and pronounce your name correctly, which I abjectly failed to do?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
I call the shadow Minister to ask the first question.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q I think it is fair to say that at the recent TUC congress some scepticism was expressed about the current Government’s plans for the energy sector, not least in respect of fears about the tens of thousands of jobs that are currently under threat in the oil and gas sector. How do you see GB Energy fitting into the overall piece when it comes to seeking to protect those jobs through the transition?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Do you have enough clarity thus far, through this Bill and the creation of GB Energy, to give confidence to those people in the sector who are worried about their jobs—
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. I do not think there is anything in the Bill about jobs, shadow Minister, so I am being steered by the Clerk to get you off the subject. Let us go to Olivia Blake.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Q My point follows on slightly. Do you think the Bill will help to ensure a just transition for UK workers? You hinted at that, but I wonder whether Mike Clancy has a comment.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. The Whips are saying there is something wrong with the mics—nobody can hear me either. You need to speak into the mic because nobody can hear what anyone is saying.
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q Thank you both for coming. In relation to that specific point, which is also in the written evidence that you provided, you referenced Ørsted, EDF, Vattenfall and Statkraft. GB Energy will be capitalised with £1.6 billion per annum. How does that equate to the delivery of projects similar to those of Ørsted, EDF, Vattenfall and Statkraft? Is that not quite a leap?
Andrew Pakes (Labour/Co-operative, Peterborough)
Q Thank you both for coming in. This Bill and GB Energy are a hugely exciting return to public steering, which we have not seen before for our energy system. One of our big challenges, before we even start building new systems, is the skills shortage we face, and the real challenge we have had in nuclear, renewables and other forms of energy production. I ask you both: how do you feel the Bill can stimulate and relate to the need to develop skills, deliver new jobs and ensure skills development in different regions of the country as well as in traditional areas?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. The Clerk is saying that we are straying from the scope of the Bill. We are okay for time because we have until 10.20 am, but it is getting a bit hypothetical about what will happen on top of the Bill, which, I am being told, is not really allowed.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q This question is aimed at both of you. In terms of the job prospects for GB Energy, we have had figures such as 650,000 jobs, with 69,000 of those in Scotland as and when they come. However, I am sure that your members will be looking at not necessarily future jobs, but current jobs and the implication of the Bill for them. What would you like to see in the Bill to ensure that the jobs that are there today are protected? Do you think the Bill as it stands can and will impact them?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. Sorry, but I did tell off the shadow Minister for talking about jobs when they are not in the Bill. I think we are straying quite a fair distance away. We are meant to stick within the scope of the contents of the Bill. With that in mind, a brilliant example will be Josh MacAlister.
Josh MacAlister (Labour, Whitehaven and Workington)
Q Welcome to you both. Mike Clancy, this is a question for you. The Bill allows for future flexibility in the relationship between Great British Energy and Great British Nuclear, which is welcome. Can you share a bit about your and your members’ reflections on the Bill in relation to the establishment of Great British Nuclear under the last Government and any lessons for the autonomy and operation of GBE under this Government, as enabled by the Bill?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Q Good morning. I want to come back to clause 5 of the Bill, which is about the statement of strategic priorities. Most of what I have heard this morning is that we are a bit worried about there not being enough detail on certain things. Should there be more detail about the strategic priorities in the Bill, such as job creation, or should there be a precise timeline for when we can actually expect that? The whole purpose of the Bill is to speed up all that energy transition, and currently we do not know when we will see a statement. Is it important that we actually get some timelines in the Bill?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Thank you both. I really welcome hearing the views of trade unions in this session, especially about keeping workers at the heart of this. Do you think that GB Energy can help to drive the demand for skills and apprenticeships and prepare our workforce for a just transition?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. Just a reminder again that we are talking about what is in the Bill—not blue-sky thinking about what GB Energy might do and that kind of stuff.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q I think we are all agreed that
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”
should include nuclear energy—very important to your members, Mr Clancy. But to build on the point from the hon. Member for Whitehaven and Workington, I think there is a lack of clarity in the Bill at the minute over the operational independence and the autonomy of Great British Nuclear. Are you seeking that from the Government? Is it something that we should seek to have in the Bill as it moves through Committee?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q You have spoken eloquently and rightly about the energy transition, jobs, skills and STEM, but I have double checked and the Bill contains absolutely no detail about any of those things. Is that correct?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q But, for clarity, the things that have been spoken about in this context are not in the Bill. Similarly, is there anything within the Bill that gives you certainty that energy bills will be brought down by £300?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q Is it within the Bill though?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Are there any further questions from Members?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
If there is still time, I am happy to come back.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Well, we are not going to fill the time for the sake of it. If you have a genuine question—
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q With all due respect, asking a question is not just filling time; it is my job.
For full clarity, you have clarified that it is possible for these things to happen—I do not think anyone would disagree with that—but as it stands the Bill does not provide any certainty about any of those points.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. Is this a repeat of the previous question? I think—[Interruption.] Okay, there is a minute left. Go on.
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Again, just for clarity—because you pushed back and said that EDF brought down bills—there is nothing in this Bill, unless you tell me otherwise, that says that GB Energy will do likewise. Is that correct?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask this section of questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We will now hear oral evidence from our third panel. We have Shaun Spiers, executive director of Green Alliance, Ravi Gurumurthy, chief executive officer of Nesta, and Marc Hedin, head of UK and Ireland research at Aurora Energy Research. We have until 11 am for this session. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Andrew Pakes (Labour/Co-operative, Peterborough)
Q Thank you all for coming in. Could you tell us a bit more about how GB Energy might benefit from or support the ecosystem of innovation and research we have? We know the Bill is limited; we have had that discussion. I am interested in your thoughts on how what is in the Bill might stimulate the innovation and research that the three of you represent.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q My question is primarily to the Green Alliance. Shaun, what difference will GB Energy make to your analysis of the UK’s progress to date to decarbonise power generation?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
I am being reminded again that we should focus on what is in the Bill; I know we can extrapolate what might happen. Next we go to Olivia Blake.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Q I have a question about the fact that this is a public company, and it is really important that it is accountable to the public. Do you think that the Bill has sufficient detail about that accountability against its objectives and effectiveness?
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
Q My question was exactly on that point. Thank you all for coming here to present your evidence.
Can you explain a little more your concerns? First, given that innovation needs to pivot, but also given that we are being asked to allow for the objects to be so broad to allow for flexibility within them, Shaun, can you explain a little more why you think there should be consultation on such broad objects? Secondly, can you discuss any concerns you may have around environmental requirements for what GB Energy is going to do? That is also absent at the moment from the objects of the Bill.
Josh MacAlister (Labour, Whitehaven and Workington)
Q This is a follow-up for Ravi Gurumurthy, on the theme of autonomy and flexibility for GBE. For this to be a success, there needs to be some appetite for risk taken by GBE. Historically, Government agencies have not been known for being particularly free to do that. The Bill intends to provide a degree of flexibility for GBE to operate and respond with autonomy and pace. Given the work that Nesta has done in this space, Ravi, can you say a little more about what gives you the confidence that the Bill sets that up in the right way?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q We have heard a lot about public investment and the importance of private investment for meeting net zero. Is there anything in the Bill that encourages you that the amount of public investment going in will attract the amount of private investment that is needed? We have to take this Bill in the round with other energy policies coming forward. How does it sit alongside those in ensuring that we continue to attract private investment into the energy sector?
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Q You anticipated my question. To pivot back, Ravi, you talked about innovation, and you talked, Shaun, about closing that 20% towards net zero. What can this Bill and GB Energy do to drive that private sector investment?
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Yes, what can the Bill and GB Energy itself do?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Q I want to come back to what Shaun said a little earlier about the slight risk of the great power that the Secretary of State has. Do you think that there should be some protection in the Bill for communities, so that they can have a say? We also know that quite a lot of the delivery of our new transition infrastructure might be delayed because communities are not entirely certain, for instance. Is there a risk, and should there be something in the Bill that protects communities, so that they can be confident they are part of the transition and are being listened to?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
So the Bill is sufficient in protecting communities?
Catherine Fookes (Labour, Monmouthshire)
Q Welcome to the participants. My question follows on beautifully from Shaun’s comments around community. How do we think that GB Energy can accelerate and drive investment in the development of community enterprise and community energy?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Thank you, panel. We have been hearing a lot today about the mission to make the UK a clean energy superpower, moving away from fossil fuels. I want to touch on something that Shaun, Marc and Ravi have all mentioned, about leadership, ambition and innovation. In your view, does the Bill give investors increased confidence to invest in the UK in the energy sector?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q Again, you have spoken very eloquently about the opportunities that may or may not exist under GB Energy, particularly with regard to the risk appetite that needs to be there. You have perhaps delved into some areas in relation to planning and Crown Estate; where they sit within the devolved competency of the Scottish Parliament. I will not ask you to comment on that because that would be deeply unfair, but what you and others have done is delve into the strategic priorities and what you think they could be. Do you think it is helpful or unhelpful that at this juncture we do not have a full understanding of what those strategic priorities are, given that the Bill is going through in its current form?
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q As a proud Cornishman, I am very excited about the reopening of our tin mines and our lithium mines. I was very pleased to hear you mention critical minerals. Can you elaborate a little on how you think GB Energy can support the UK’s domestic critical minerals industry?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We are straying quite far from the scope of the Bill. It is an interesting discussion, and it could carry on offline afterwards, but it is not within the scope of this Bill. Are there any more questions? If there are no further questions from Committee members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
Welcome to our fourth and final panel this morning. We will now hear oral evidence from Dan McGrail, CEO of RenewableUK, and Adam Berman, who is director of policy at Energy UK. For this session we have until 11.25 am. There are questions at 11.30 am in the Chamber—I have one myself.
Michael Shanks (Labour, Rutherglen)
I think a few of us have.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
A few of us have. Okay, if we finish early, we have more time to leg it over there. Please could the witnesses introduce themselves.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q For the record, can I say how nice it is to see Dan again? And also to thank you, Adam, and Emma for the support and, indeed, challenge you posed when I was sitting on the other side, talking through the Energy Bill last year. I ask of both the panellists: the strategic policies and plans are set out in the Bill—are they adequate for GB Energy and indeed the aims and ambitions of your organisations as you seek to see them progress?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Do you think there is enough provision in the Bill to allow for the Secretary of State to be publicly accountable for the decisions that he or she may take in the future, in regard to the concerns you have just raised?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Q I wanted to ask about the definition in the Bill on clean energy. Do either of you have any thoughts on whether that definition is clear enough?
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
Q To go back to the few organisations that you mentioned in connection with consultation, you got to devolved Administrations but I did not hear about local government. The Local Government Association has been pushing very hard and is keen for the place-makers—those who understand what demand will be, what the spatial strategies are and what land is available—to be part of the planning very early on. Do you agree that they should be included in the shortened consultation list?
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
Q May I follow up on that? We are looking at the governance side. We know that on the spatial side, we have the local energy action plan. Rather than taking an individual look, I am looking at how we ensure that where that spatial strategy happens, rather than talking about individual local community consultations, those who know about the place-making are brought into the energy planning early. I fear that leaving them out will once again endanger all the progress that has been made in local energy area planning. We just need a reference to it somehow.
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
We are getting away from the Bill a bit.
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Q Good morning, gentlemen. Dan, you have argued in the past that GB Energy should have a very focused mission. What is your view of the objects for GB Energy set out in clause 3?
Josh MacAlister (Labour, Whitehaven and Workington)
Q Dan McGrail, this is a question for you. What are the views of your private sector members about the role that GB Energy can play in de-risking investments and crowding in private sector investment? What are they saying at the moment?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Q We had a line of questioning around research and development. Do you think it is important that the Bill is future-proofed in that way—that GB Energy really focuses on those markets and those projects where the private investors would not come in behind? Is there any way in which the Bill could strengthen that? Research and innovation is probably one of the main focuses of what GB Energy can deliver successfully.
Catherine Fookes (Labour, Monmouthshire)
Q It is good to see you both. You were not here for the earlier sessions, but there were a lot of questions about whether there is enough detail in the Bill. Before I was an MP, I used to be the CEO of a charity; if the objects of that charity had gone into an incredible amount of detail telling me exactly what to do, it would have been very difficult 10 years down the line, when I joined the charity, to pivot and do what we did. I think you are absolutely right: we are hearing from every single witness that the Bill needs to be general enough to allow the business plan to be developed by the experts running the company. You are chiming with everyone else, which is interesting and good.
My question is about tidal power. I represent a Welsh constituency, Monmouthshire. We have the River Severn in the south of the constituency, which is a tidal river, and we have the Celtic sea. What opportunities will the Bill give to generate more tidal power?
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Clause 5(1) requires the Secretary of State to
“prepare a statement of strategic priorities”.
I have been listening carefully to the priorities on skills and innovation from your perspective. Let me ask you both: if you were Secretary of State, what would be your key strategic priorities be for the Bill?
Rupa Huq (Labour, Ealing Central and Acton)
If there are no further questions from Members, may I thank the witnesses for their evidence?
That brings us to the end of our morning sitting. We have had four panels with eight witnesses—thanks, everyone. The Committee will meet again in this Committee Room at 2 o’clock, when I will have turned into Sir Roger Gale.
(Afternoon)
Examination of Witnesses
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
The Committee will now hear oral evidence from Alistair McGirr, group head of policy and advocacy at SSE, and Tristan Zipfel, director of strategy at EDF Renewables. We have until 2.30 pm for this session. Will you be kind enough to introduce yourselves for the record, gentlemen?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Mr Zipfel, one of the disadvantages of having a geriatric Chairman is that my hearing is not as good as it used to be. But for everybody’s benefit and, most particularly, for the Hansard reporters, it might be helpful for you to speak up a little and be very clearly on microphone. I call the shadow Minister.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Good afternoon, gentlemen, and thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Clause 3 of the Bill, titled “Objects”, states that GBE’sQ50
“objects are restricted to facilitating…the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”
and must include
“measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
SSE and EDF Renewables are involved in both those objects right now, so how do you see the Bill and the creation of this company as either assisting or facilitating you in your objectives?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Thank you for those clear answers. It says under “Strategic priorities and plans”, which is clause 5 of the Bill:
“The Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities for Great British Energy.”
If you were the Secretary of State and were tasked with drawing up strategic priorities, what would they be?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q I will be brief, because I know that others want to come in. Mr McGirr, you specifically mentioned Berwick Bank and planning and consenting. Obviously, Berwick Bank is in Scotland, and planning and consenting is a devolved competence. Clause 5(4) states:
“The Secretary of State must consult the Scottish Ministers before including in a statement under this section anything which concerns a subject matter provision about which would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament”.
As a company that has heavily invested in Scotland, did you realise that there was detail in the Bill about how GB Energy will interact with the devolved Administrations, given that so many aspects of what it is seeking to achieve are competences of the devolved Administrations, specifically in Scotland?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I have three Members on my list already, and we have 15 minutes left, so please be short, sharp and to the point.
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
I will keep it short. Thank you both for your insights today. I would like to know what advantages other European countries have from a state-owned energy companyQ .
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Merci.
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
You talked about the objects within the scope of the law, about facilitating and encouraging, and about frontier innovation in technology and energy generation, but you also talked about de-risking. You did not mention onshore wind, so I am wondering whether that would lead also to onshore wind. There are also tidal programmes, such as the reef from Aberthaw to Minehead, that are stalled. Do you see these as part of helping to facilitate and de-risk within the scope of GB Energy, tooQ ?
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Welcome, gentlemen. In relation to clause 3(2)(a) andQ
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”,
you have welcomed state intervention and the role of GB Energy in that. How would you feel about communities taking a direct stake in your onshore and offshore developments—say, 20%, as they do in Denmark?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Thank you for answering our questions. In the morning sitting we struggled with the fact that although we all hope the Bill will do something, it has relatively little detail. We have already discussed the merits of not having too much detail, because then GB Energy would be hampered, Q and of having more detail. We have to try to find a balance in what we agree to in legislation. When you look at clause 4, are you content with the scope of the financial assistance provisions?
Catherine Fookes (Labour, Monmouthshire)
I welcome both witnesses to the Committee. Clause 5(5) states that the Secretary of State will consult Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland Ministers, so as a Welsh MP I am content—it sounds like you are, too—that our devolved Administrations will be consulted before things happen. I think it was Mr McGirr who said there were bound to be lots of projects in Scotland. I want to flag the fact that Wales is also extremely well placed to receive some of these projects in terms of hydro, tidal and wind energy. What in the Bill would help us to ensure that lots of the investment comes to Wales?Q
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Thank you for coming in, gents; it is always nice to hear positive things about Scotland.Q
In relation to some of the objects that are detailed in clause 3, I think we are all excited about the potential for the state to take a proactive role in the production of energy, but the Bill is quite clear that it is about
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
SSE is investing £40 billion in clean tech over the next 10 years, and EDF is investing £50 billion or so. How far do you think £1.6 billion can go, in real terms, given the breadth of the different things the Bill seeks to achieve?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We have a couple of minutes left.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Gentlemen, in relation to clause 3(2)(a), on the supply of clean energy, you have mentioned floating offshore wind, onshore wind and tidal; what do you think are the benefits of GB Energy for technologies such as solar, which is quite well advanced, and geothermalQ , which is quite important to us in Cornwall? There will be no requirement to consult a Cornish Minister about that.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Thank you. I apologise to Members who have not managed to ask all the questions they want to ask, but we are out of time on this panel. Mr Zipfel and Mr McGirr, I thank you very much on behalf of the Committee and the House for affording us the benefit of your opinions and your time.
Examination of Witness
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We will now hear oral evidence from Dan Labbad, who is the chief executive officer of the Crown Estate. For this session, I am afraid that we have only until 2.50 pm. For the benefit of the record, Mr Labbad, could you introduce yourself?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Thank you for giving us your time this afternoon, Mr Labbad. How do you foresee the Bill and the creation of GB Energy impacting on the offices of the Crown Estate? In your answer, could you give some detail on the recent agreement between the Crown Estate and GB Energy, and what that will mean moving forward?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q We have spoken with previous guests this afternoon about the necessity for the Secretary of State and the Minister here to have strategic priorities and plans to engage with Scottish and Welsh Ministers and all the devolved Administrations. Obviously, the Crown Estate is an area that is devolved in Scotland. You said that within the market right now there are different plans, priorities and timescales and people are moving in different directions. How are you co-ordinating with Crown Estate Scotland to ensure that your work with GBE will be uniform and joined up across the United Kingdom? Otherwise, none of the targets will be met.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q In relation to clause 1(5), about the statement of strategic priorities, you just mentioned the Celtic sea round 5 tenders. I think I am correct in saying that they did not have any mandatory social value element. What would be your thoughts on social value being mandated as part of the strategic priorities for local coastal communities, particularly deprived areas such as Cornwall?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q GB Energy’s objectives as set out in the Bill make it quite clear that it is intent on becoming a producer, distributor, supplier and storer of energy, and to achieve that the Crown Estate will be absolutely crucial. Can you provide a little insight on the recent powers on borrowing provided to the Crown Estate, and how that will help you and GB Energy to meet the Bill’s aims?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Order. The issue of scope has raised its head again. I gently say that while this Chairman is not in the business of seeking to tell witnesses what they can and cannot say, he is in the business of making sure that Members, at least, stay within the scope.
Catherine Fookes (Labour, Monmouthshire)
Q Thank you, Chair; I will try to stay in scope. I was really pleased to read about the £2-million tidal energy project at Morlais off the coast of Ynys Môn. Clause 3(2)(d) talks about GB Energy improving the security of our energy supply here in the UK. Is that the kind of project that you see benefiting from and being supported by GB Energy?
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
Q We have heard how, working together with the Crown Estate, we could be accelerating GB Energy’s investments, particularly through accelerating the consenting process. It was reassuring to hear you say that there are multiple values and that you have a multiple delivery group, with environmental values being part of that, and how critical it is to have consultations around the environmental requirements.
Within the scope of the Bill, under clause 3, we also heard in evidence this morning the request that we seek a duty towards nature and nature recovery and the achievement of the Environment Act 2021. Would that provide the reassurance that while we are dealing with the climate emergency, we are not disregarding the nature emergency and the environmental value of the seabed and the sea?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
This will be the final question.
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
The aim of GB Energy, among other things, is to decarbonise the grid. The 2030 date has been thrown around. Practically, in terms of timescales, no matter what happens with GB Energy, the Crown Estate and land leases, it would not impact the Crown Estate’s ability to bring more wind farms online by 2030. What is in the Bill at the moment that can bring on the transition and help to decarbonise?Q
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I said that that would be the final question, but we have a couple of minutes left, so, very briefly, I call Torcuil Crichton.
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Q Hello, Mr Labbad. I realise that Crown Estate Scotland is devolved and under different jurisdiction, but it was in the water first, so to speak, with its Scotland licensing round. What lessons did the Crown Estate learn from that Scottish experience, in terms of what came out of it and co-investing in future with the UK Government?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Thank you. Mr Labbad, it may seem like a long way to have come for a very short period of time, but your evidence is extremely valuable to the Committee.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Good afternoon. We will now hear oral evidence from Josh Buckland, a partner at Flint Global. For this session, we have until 3.10 pm. Mr Buckland, will you identify yourself for the purposes of the record, please?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Thank you very much for joining us, Mr Buckland. Obviously you come from the perspective of a company that is investing—alongside others that are investing—in the future technologies that will guide us towards net zero and a clean future. One of the objects of Great British Energy, as clause 3 states, is that it should be involved in
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”.
Do you see the Bill and the creation of GBE as an assistance in unlocking private capital and the investment that we need in the new technologies, or are you worried, as some are, that this might be a blockage and get in the way of the private sector?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
I am interested to know whether there are any conditions that you would like to see put on the financial assistance provisions and their scope under clause 4, given your unique placement within the systemQ .
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Q Is there anything that you feel is missing from the Bill that would provide clarity, or do you think it will be covered in subsequent documentation?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q The Bill, as we have discussed, is pretty light on detail at the moment, which means it could be all things to all people or not offer enough answers to give any reassurance to anyone. From your clients’ point of view, is there a different mechanism that they would prefer? How could this public investment be used in a different manner to actually help drive and retain the private investment coming in at the moment? In other words, is this the best mechanism for keeping and driving investment?
Josh MacAlister (Labour, Whitehaven and Workington)
ItQ is good to hear you say that the Bill has the full range of mechanisms within it to mobilise capital. There has been a recurring theme today that the Bill should provide flexibility for future eventualities as the energy system changes dynamically. Do you have any reflections on the past 10 years, and looking ahead to the next 10 years, as to how the mechanisms that get chosen by the executive at GB Energy might have changed had it been in existence 10 years ago? Looking ahead as well, how might the mechanisms that it chooses change over time?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
FollowingQ on from what you were saying about uncertainties, and how we have the Bill but then there are all sorts of other questions, it is about creating certainties for us as legislators, to some extent, as well as for investors. Clause 5 says that
“the Secretary of State must prepare a statement of strategic priorities”.
Do you think that it would be important to have a timescale for that, so that we know when the Secretary of State is preparing the strategic priorities, and so that it happens quite quickly? That is something that we can do: put a possible time limit or timeframe into this Bill.
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Thank you, Josh. Prior to becoming an MP, I worked globally to advance climate action, so I know that there is best practice to learn from countries around the world. As a global corporation, have you seen comparable frameworks in other countries to support the transition?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I call Stephen Flynn.
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
My question has just been answered.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q My question is along similar lines. Thinking about attracting that capital investment, we are currently in a scenario where, in relation to clause 4, there is a need to de-risk some UK energy projects to unlock additional capital investment. Can you describe how you see the specific role of GB Energy in unlocking some of that capital investment?
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
Q Given your history as a civil servant and in government over the last years, one of the issues around governance under clause 5 was the level of scope and power given to the Secretary of State, without a review, being able to review, reverse or replace the statement. Given that in the past we have had the rolling back of commitments and that we are trying to create certainty for investment, do you have any reflections on whether there should be any kind of review before the Secretary of State can do anything? We are being asked to support this Bill’s being so broad and flexible that any change would be quite substantive. Is there any learning from the past where you would change the way that is described in the Bill?
Andrew Pakes (Labour/Co-operative, Peterborough)
Most of my professional background has been in workforce development in supply chains, ensuring that we can deliver. Even though we have had the conversation about the flexibility and the broadness of the objectives, I think this is still an ambitious piece of legislation that the Government are putting forward. I am interested in your reflections on the objectives and the financial assistance, and whether you think that in the country we currently have the supply chain or the skills to deliver on this ambition, or whether the Bill itself in containing these powers will be a catalyst to deliver on that ambition.Q
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Thank you very much indeed for your time this afternoon, Mr Buckland. The Committee is indebted to you.
Examination of Witnesses
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We are now going to hear oral evidence from Jack Norquoy, the director of communications and public affairs, Scottish Renewables, Myrtle Dawes, the chief executive officer of the Net Zero Technology Centre, and, I hope, from Olivia Powis, the chief executive of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association, although Ms Powis has been slightly delayed. We will proceed and hope that she is able to join us later. For this session we have until 3.50 pm. Please introduce yourselves for the benefit of the record.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
From one Scotsman to another—I call the shadow Minister.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Thank you, Sir Roger. Good afternoon and thank you for joining us today to help our deliberations on the Bill. My first question was going to be to Ms Powis, but I will expand on it to Ms Dawes to begin with. The Carbon Capture and Storage Association has written to the Committee expressing concern about the definition of technologies that GB Energy might be able to invest in and work on. It would like to see an extension of the definition from
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”,
to include technology that might be involved in carbon capture and storage. It is not set out clearly within the Bill that that is the case. Ms Dawes, as somebody who works with the companies involved in the extraction and production of fossil fuels in Aberdeen and the drive to transition to net zero, do you share the concern with the narrow prescription of what GB Energy will be allowed to invest in and be involved in?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Order. If I may interrupt, we have now been joined by Olivia Powis, who is chief executive of the Carbon Capture Association. For the benefit of the record and Hansard, could you identify yourself?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
There is no need to apologise; we understand the vagaries of travel in London and are grateful to you for joining us. Minister—shadow Minister, I beg your pardon—would you like to come back?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q It was the case once, Sir Roger.
Thank you for joining us, Ms Powis. I was going to ask about the concerns that your association has brought to our attention about the definitions in the Bill, particularly in clause 3, concerning the objects that GBE is restricted to facilitating, encouraging or participating in. Please could you expand on those, and also on your suggested changes to the Bill, about which you kindly wrote to us two weeks ago?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Ms Powis, do you suggest that if we do not make those changes to the Bill, it might be prohibitive to further investment in CCUS, or do you think that the words from the Secretary of State on announcing the Bill were enough to calm any jitters in your industry?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q This is a question to Ms Dawes and then to Mr Norquoy. You obviously represent two different types of energy companies. The Net Zero Technology Centre represents companies that are still very much involved in the North sea, although investing heavily in the next generation of technology that will get us to a cleaner future. How do you see this Bill, and the creation of GB Energy as a company, as helping to facilitate your work at the Net Zero Technology Centre? To Mr Norquoy, I ask the same question: how do you see it as assisting the members of your organisation, Scottish Renewables?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q This will be my last question, Chair, I promise. Mr Norquoy, you represent Scottish Renewables. In the past, there have been moments when the aims and objectives of the UK Government and those of the Scottish Government have not been entirely aligned. Your members operate in a devolved administrative area, Scotland. How content are you, given the provisions of the Bill, that GB Energy—an arm of the UK Government, a company established by the UK Government and answerable to the UK Secretary of State—will have the autonomy and power to work constructively with and under the auspices of the devolved Administration in Edinburgh?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q We have heard a great deal today, and rightly so, about the potential investment that GB Energy could make, whether that is in production, storage or generation and so on and so forth. I am particularly interested in the innovation space and in your experience with the Net Zero Technology Centre. Do you think that GB Energy’s focus should be on that, given the relatively small quantum that is available, or do you think that it should be broader and more focused on the de-risking of projects that might already be in the pipeline but might require assistance in relation to consent, planning or further capital investment?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Q I have two questions for Ms Powis. The first goes back to the definition. Before you arrived, Ms Dawes mentioned that she felt that it was covered in clause 3(2)(b). May I ask why you do not think that that sentence is sufficient to cover CCUS?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Q On CCUS, we want Great British Energy to have a broader portfolio once it is established—lots of witnesses today have said that. Where would you place CCUS, from a risky to a non-risky investment, for the £1.6 billion?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Ms Dawes and Mr Norquoy, have you anything to add?
Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat, South Cambridgeshire)
Q Mr Norquoy, you said in your opening remarks that businesses would like a little more assurance, which would perhaps come in the Secretary of State’s statement on the strategic priorities. You mentioned the objects. Part of the Committee’s debate at the moment is about how wide we make the objects. If there were any objects included, because it seemed to be indicated that that might be beneficial, what would they be?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
As nobody else on the panel wishes to respond, and there are no further questions, may I thank you for your evidence? We are very grateful to you for coming in.
Examination of Witness
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We will now take oral evidence from David Whitehouse, the chief executive of Offshore Energies UK. For this session, we have until 4.10 pm. Mr Whitehouse, for the benefit of the record, could you please identify yourself?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Thank you. I call the shadow Minister.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Thank you for joining us this afternoon, Mr Whitehouse. I think it is fair to say that OEUK has been somewhat sceptical, although it obviously wanted to work with the Government, about the overarching policies towards the energy sector, and specifically the sector you represent. Speaking specifically to this Bill and the establishment of Great British Energy, how do you see that company interacting with members of OEUK to deliver what we all want to achieve, which is greater energy security and a drive towards a cleaner net zero future?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Do you think this Bill will do that, Mr Whitehouse?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q We had the CCSA before us a few minutes ago, and there was some concern from its members about the objects in clause 3(2), which states that
“Great British Energy’s objects are restricted to facilitating…the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
Is there any concern from among your members that the stated objects will prevent GB Energy from partnering with or investing in some of those companies, given that they have an existing footprint in the oil and gas sector?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q I have one last question, if I may beg your patience, Sir Roger. Obviously, Mr Whitehouse, a lot of the members that you represent are in Aberdeen. In our very first piece of evidence this morning, we heard from Mr Juergen Maier, who is the new chair of GB Energy. It has been announced that the headquarters of GB Energy, established by this Bill, will be in Aberdeen. How important do you think that is, given the links that will have to be established to the existing energy sector and the importance of the supply chain to the success of GB Energy? How do you think the geographical location of the headquarters will affect the future success of the company, and indeed the energy sector in the UK?
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Q Mr Whitehouse, I hear what you say about the Bill and GB Energy being an opportunity, but I hear from some of your members that they think renewables are a threat. How can we change that language? To protect that world-class supply chain, what can the industry and GB Energy do to ensure that the supply chain and the jobs stay here?
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Some see them as a threat, not an opportunity.
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q In terms of the opportunities that exist in the Bill and GB Energy, would the appetite of your members for projects related to production or the generation of net zero energy be increased by the quantum that is available as part of GB Energy, which is relatively small in real terms—£1.3 billion per year, less the money that is already likely to be allocated to local plans and community projects—or by the ability to de-risk? If it is the latter, could you expand on your earlier answer?
Harriet Cross (Conservative, Gordon and Buchan)
Q The statement of strategic priorities set out in clause 5 does not have a timescale on it. I wonder how important it is from your members’ points of view that that timescale is narrowed down, particularly given that a lot of your members will be international companies. Obviously investment and personnel—that is, skills—flow abroad, and we cannot guarantee that they will wait for a strategic priorities document to come forward.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q In relation to clause 4, “Financial assistance”, you mentioned unlocking capital investment. Can you elaborate on specific areas where the de-risking of unlocking capital investment could be particularly relevant to GB Energy?
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On clause 3, you mentioned the supply chain. I totally agree with you about the value of the UK supply chain. You referred to the North sea a lot in relation to that, which I completely understand given your membership, but what about the other areas of the UK? I am particularly thinking of Wales and Cornwall where there is a huge renewable energy opportunity but where, perhaps, the supply chains have not yet been as well established as they are in the North sea. Could you comment on how we can fix that problem through GB Energy?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Q We have been round the houses several times today. We need to see whether we can add anything to the Bill, whether something is missing from it or whether a lot of this will become clearer once the Secretary of State prepares a statement of strategic priorities or we understand the governance structures—all that. You are identifying all the stuff to do with future development of technologies that we do not even know about.
There was a question this morning about whether the Bill should specify that GB Energy should look at the gap in financial markets when it comes to support for new technology companies that otherwise would not make it through the valleys of death. As I understand it, there are not enough financial products out there, from private equity, ordinary banks or other investment opportunities. Can we put anything in the Bill to make addressing that particular gap more of a priority?
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Not in this Bill?
Catherine Fookes (Labour, Monmouthshire)
Q Mr Whitehouse, you mentioned inclusivity; I think you were referring to including the different devolved Governments in the UK. But when it comes to skills and inclusivity, I am interested in the important work of getting more women and a greater diversity of people into this sector. I was really pleased to see Ms Dawes and Ms Powis give evidence earlier. I purposely did not ask them—the two women in the room—how to get more women into the sector, but how can we get greater inclusivity and diversity into the sector through the strategic plan for Great British Energy? This relates to clause 5(8)(a), so it is in scope.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Order. I think we can say that that is fairly close to being outside the scope of the Bill. I am absolutely confident that the next question will be within it.
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q Thank you, Sir Roger; I will do my best. Thank you, David, for your insights today. You talked earlier about the potential for GB Energy to be much more than an investment vehicle. In your opinion, what are the other barriers that GB Energy and the Government can break down to create an environment to accelerate the transition?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I apologise for the slight distraction at this end of the table. We have been trying to juggle timings in connection with the imminent Division.
As there are no further questions, Mr Whitehouse, may I thank you for your contribution? We are most grateful.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
We are likely to have a Division in the House, so I am afraid that we will have to ask you—if you have the time, Mr Prendergast—to allow us to go and vote and then come back if we have not finished your evidence session.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
You are most kind. With that in mind, we will now hear evidence from Andy Prendergast, who is the national secretary of the GMB. We have until 4.30 pm, in theory, but we may be interrupted. Mr Prendergast, for the benefit of the record could you identify yourself?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Thank you for taking the time to come and join us, Mr Prendergast. For the benefit of the Committee, could you elaborate on the overarching view of GMB members on the establishment of Great British Energy and on Government energy policy overall?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q In the case of the Methil yard in Scotland—I think it is Burntisland we are speaking about—the UK Government and, I think, the Scottish Government did attempt to save that yard and ensure that it works moving forward. I do not know how GB Energy would have been able to do much more, but I take your point that we need to build up the domestic supply chain and ensure that there are manufacturing jobs here.
Do you think that the aims and objects of this Bill go wide enough? Do you think that there is broad enough scope for the different technologies that GB Energy will have to invest in? We have heard the CCSA raise slight concerns that there might not be the scope for investment in carbon capture, for example, where a lot of new jobs are going to be created, and presumably a lot of those will be members of the GMB.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q I could not agree more. There will be 70,000 jobs created by SMRs alone over the next few years if we get it right. Would you like to see clarification in the Bill of the relationship with Great British Nuclear?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Absolutely. By the end of the year would be great.
Josh MacAlister (Labour, Whitehaven and Workington)
Q Welcome, Andy. Thousands of your members are at Sellafield, involved in one end of the energy system, doing brilliant work in the decommissioning field. You have touched on the relationship between GBN and GBE. The Bill does have flexibility for future involvement with nuclear. What I imagine the Government have tried to do, which I think the Bill achieves, is to get the relationship right so that GBN can continue with its programme of work without being disrupted, while opening the door in the future for a bringing together of the two endeavours. Does the GMB have views on how best to enable the multi-gigawatt-scale programmes in the future, and reflections on the experience with GBN today that would inform the Bill?
Josh MacAlister (Labour, Whitehaven and Workington)
Thank you. I think I should have declared an interest at the start of that question as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on nuclear energy.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Thank you. That is a matter of record, and I gently advise any other Members who have a similar interest to declare it.
Wera Hobhouse (Liberal Democrat, Bath)
Q It is good to hear from you again, Andy—we had a discussion a few weeks ago. At the beginning of your remarks today you said, as others have said, that GB Energy should not just be an investment vehicle; it should be so much more. We have to deal with this Bill and see whether it will meet the ambitions of your members for GB Energy to be more than just an investment vehicle. Is there anywhere in the Bill where you think, “Hmm—there’s a gap where this could be emphasised to make sure that GB Energy doesn’t become just an investment vehicle?”
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
Q Thank you, Andy: you have spoken very clearly. If I have picked you up correctly, you expressed a modicum of concern about the quantum that runs alongside the Bill to support its potential strategic investments. Could you perhaps elaborate on that more? Secondly, regarding clause 3(2)(c) on energy efficiency, is GMB of the view that GB Energy will bring down energy bills?
Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)
It was about the quantum that is available. You referred to IRA and the EU’s corresponding investment. The quantum for GB Energy is £8.3 billion over the course of five years, or £1.6 billion per year. Do you think that is sufficient to meet the objectives laid out in the Bill?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Q I have two questions. First, how important do you think it is to have clause 3(2)(d)—
“measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy”—
in the Bill for your members, given the global situation in which we find ourselves? Secondly, which of the objects in the Bill will have the most impact, or in what ways will the Bill have an impact on your members?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Order.
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Mr Prendergast, I am sorry that you were interrupted. It was very good of you to stay. I believe I am right in saying that Ms Blake had a second question.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield Hallam)
Before we were interrupted, my second question was about what the biggest impact of the Bill will be on your members. I do not think we have covered that.Q
Andrew Pakes (Labour/Co-operative, Peterborough)
It is good to have you in, Andy. Do you think there should be anything in the Bill and its priorities on workforce development? Having worked in the sector alongside GMB colleagues, my experience is that lots of these new companies set up, but do not recognise trade unions and do not have the quality of work that we have seen previously in the power and industry sectors, particularly in renewables and others. Indeed, some of the renewables companies, despite Q being divisions of existing larger companies that do recognise unions, have set up without recognition. What do you think the role is of the Bill, or its strategic priorities, in ensuring we get the right terms and conditions for the new workforce, as we have for existing workforces?
Uma Kumaran (Labour, Stratford and Bow)
Q I declare an interest as a proud member of the GMB. Thanks, Andy. The transition is one that we all care about, and it needs to be a just transition that takes local communities with us. In your opinion, what more can the Government do to ensure that workers and jobs are kept at the heart of the GB Energy Bill?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I call Perran Moon.
Perran Moon (Labour, Camborne and Redruth)
My question has been answered.
Torcuil Crichton (Labour, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)
Q Thank you, Andy, for your impressive evidence. I also declare an interest as a member of the GMB. You welcome the Bill, possibly the prescription part for renewables, but what would you write in that prescription part to ensure that the workforce is involved and that we retain that workforce as we move to green energy away from oil and gas?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Mr Prendergast, thank you very much indeed for your patience and for answering our questions this afternoon. The Committee is indebted to you. I am most grateful.
Would the Minister leading on the Bill like to meta-morphose himself and take the witness stand?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Michael Shanks MP, Minister for Energy at the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero. For this session, we think we have until about 5.05 pm. Mr Shanks, could I ask you to identify yourself for the benefit of the record?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Good afternoon, Minister—we have obviously not seen enough of each other today. When you were introducing this Bill on the Floor of the House, you said:
“There will be a range of projects, in some of which we will certainly have the controlling stake, and some of which we might help to get over the line, but in every single project there will be a return for the British taxpayer.” —[Official Report, 26 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 939.]
We have already talked about how GB Energy will be important—almost the key partner in investing in riskier technologies. How can you guarantee that every single project will have a return for the British taxpayer?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q You can see why the interpretation of what you said might lend itself to the understanding that what is returned to the taxpayer is a monetary value from every single project being invested in. Are you clarifying that today? You are not standing by that statement.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q In the context of the Bill—the objects, the financial assistance and the strategic priorities and plans—it is quite clear that you are seeking to develop a company in the mould of an Ørsted or an EDF. I just quoted you on the target of 2030 for the decarbonisation of the grid. Some of the other witnesses have said that it will take 10 to 15 years and many billions of pounds more than has already been allocated to GB Energy even to begin to compete with an EDF or an Ørsted. How on earth will this company assist on that journey to 2030 decarbonisation if it will take as long as some of the other witnesses have said to begin to compete?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q You are absolutely right in what you say. Some of these companies—EDF, Ørsted, Equinor, Vattenfall—are fantastic companies. It should be noted that while EDF returned for the French taxpayer, it was also bailed out by the French Government to the tune of about €20 billion last year. I hope we do not get into a similar situation with GB Energy.
Moving on, some concern has been raised today that there has not been very much clarification, or that there is some confusion, over the status, operational independence and autonomy of Great British Nuclear within GB Energy. I wondered if you might expand on that and maybe think about putting something in the Bill regarding Great British Nuclear and its relationship with Great British Energy.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
I agree with you entirely on what you said about Great British Nuclear. Sir Roger, I think we should note that the Minister has just credited the former Government with something. I think it is the first time—
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q This is my very last question, Sir Roger, as you will be pleased to hear. Earlier on, Juergen Maier, the chair of GB Energy, committed the headquarters in Aberdeen to employing in the region of hundreds of people—he did say over 1,000 people—in time. Will you be drawn on any specific numbers of people who will be based at the headquarters in Aberdeen?
Roger Gale (Conservative, Herne Bay and Sandwich)
I understand that that was out of order this morning, but you got your answer in the end.