Football Governance Bill
Public Bill Committee, 14 May 2024.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. Hansard colleagues will be grateful if Members email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. I also ask everybody present to switch any electronic devices they have to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings, although, obviously, water is provided on the tables. Members who may wish to take off their jackets are free to do so, because it is getting a bit warmer nowadays.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take these matters formally and without debate. I first call the Minister to move the programme motion in his name, which was agreed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for this Bill.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room, and will also be circulated to Members by email. We will now go into a private session to discuss the lines of questioning.
Examination of Witnesses
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interest in connection with this Bill?
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
I want to declare that I was chair of the fan-led review that led to this Bill.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
I sit on the management committee of the Spirit of Shankly football union for Liverpool football club.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
I am a trustee of The Sports Trust in Folkestone, which has previously received funding from the Football Foundation.
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
I am chair of the all-party parliamentary football club group, and we too receive sponsorship.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on football. I do not think it necessary to declare, but at least it is there on the record in case anyone wants to know that.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We will now hear oral evidence from Kieran Maguire, senior teacher in accountancy at the University of Liverpool, and Dr Christina Philippou, a principal lecturer in accounting, economics and finance at the University of Portsmouth. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I should like to remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. We will stick quite strictly to the timings in the programme motion, which the Committee has agreed. For this panel, we therefore have until approximately 10.10 am. I will give warning before this session finishes. Would the witnesses like to introduce themselves and say a few words before fielding questions from the Committee?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Good morning to you both, and thanks for joining us. By way of an opening question, the fan-led review of football governance concluded that the finances of many football clubs are fragile, which obviously puts them and their communities at risk. What do you believe are the sources of this financial difficultyQ ?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q The licensing system in the Bill focuses on the financial sustainability and governance of each individual club. Do you think that that will help to mitigate some of the more systemic weaknesses in the football pyramid that you have outlined, or do you feel that some of the issues will remain?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q How would you say football compares with other industries in terms of its funding model? Are they more reliant on owner funding, and if so what impact does that have on clubs?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Do you have any information, or any views, that you can share with the Committee on what percentage of revenue clubs should spend on wages in order to be sustainable versus the percentage that they actually spend? To elaborate on that, are there any trends on overspending, and does that vary across leagues and clubs?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Stephanie, if you have any other questions, I will bring you in a bit later. There are a lot of Members who have indicated that they want to ask questions.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q I have a question on the redistribution of money, which is one of the Football League’s principal concerns about the current model. From what you have said, is there not a danger that, despite redistributing more money into the Championship, those clubs will not necessarily get any better? They will probably just end up paying the players they have more than they do at the moment. Redistribution without some sort of control will just fuel inflation.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Do you agree that one of the reasons why we need the regulator is that we need a body with statutory powers to investigate clubs and use real transparency of powers to see what is going on? A lot of clubs that have failed have been reckless, and often they have been trading outside the rules of the leagues they are playing in anyway, but they have just been able to hide that fact until it is too late.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Briefly, I want to ask about club owners and the business plans of club owners. On your podcast, Kieran, you have recently been talking about Everton in particular. Would you look at a situation like that and say that if this is going to work and make a difference, it is scenarios like that that should be avoided? The checks on new owners’ backgrounds and their proof of finance should be robust enough to stop clubs getting into that kind of mess.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q Do you think parachute payments, as they currently exist, cause problems or provide solutions?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q Using your own words then, do you think it is right that that clumsy solution should be written into the Bill as a no-go area, which cannot be looked at by the regulator as part of the financial backstop?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q We are told that the regulator will still have some powers over parachute payments. Do you understand what they are and how they might work?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Can I just ask about—
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Clive, I will come back to you, but a lot of people want to get in.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
This is about the backstop—
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Clive, I want to bring the Minister in.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Fair enough.
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q We have heard some accusations that the Bill is over-regulation for football. What is your view on that?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q You gave us quite a lot of information about the financial situation in both the Premier League and the EFL, but what about the National League?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Is there anything in the Bill that imperils the financial sustainability and global success of the Premier League?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Touching on the global success, football fans play a huge part in that, and they are the unique selling point of the Premier League. The Bill talks about protecting heritage, and there are huge concerns at the moment about the pricing out of working-class people from football matches. How do ticket prices affect club revenue, compared with the broadcasting element? Is there a need for such price rises, as we have seen this year, for sustainability?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Essentially, are they in danger of killing the golden goose that is laying the egg? If we look at what has happened in Italy, with the empty stadiums and the broadcasting rights there, the Premier League is on the crest of a wave. Surely the football fans are absolutely integral to the success of the Premier League.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Should the regulator—
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Ian, we need to bring some more speakers in. Make this the last one.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Should the regulator have any ability to determine ticket prices to protect the unique heritage of football?
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q Given your collective expertise, how long would it take you to write an assessment of football—let us call it a state of game report? Given your insight over time into the finances of football, what would be a meaningful timeframe of review for that assessment?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
You mentioned very serious issues with the behaviour of some owners. I wonder if you could say how big a challenge this is for the game and how far you feel the Bill will go in tackling these potential problematic behavioursQ .
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q Do you feel then that the Bill goes far enough in tackling these issues?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q Dr Philippou, you describe a industry that is reliant on patronage. If I could remind you, Mr Maguire, you said that a collective inability to control costs characterises the industry. How do you reconcile the two? Is it the inability of owners to control costs? Is it the structure that has the problems? Is it actually an inability, or is it an ignorance of costs or an unwillingness to address them?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q I am curious, then, because the Bill itself is a regulatory Bill. It talks about a licence to operate owners and directors tests, but in some of your replies, you have suggested something much more interventionist—something that is much more warning people about things that will cause them a problem further down the line. Is what you are describing about a regulation of interests rather than simply a regulation of finance? If that is the case, does this Bill focused on finance actually manage to do that?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q Do you worry about the competitiveness of the bottom of the Premier League, particularly after three weak clubs were promoted? That relates to some of the questions that were asked earlier. Do you have any thoughts about a reasonable timeframe for approving a takeover?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q On the regulator’s powers, is it unusual to have a regulator that cannot decide to intervene until you have gone through a process, and will step in and do anything only after the parties have failed to reach agreement?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q So it is not the case that the regulator should be able to come in earlier?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence, and we will move on to the next panel. Thank you very much indeed.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Welcome to the new panel. We will now hear oral evidence from: Rick Parry, Chair of the English Football League; Richard Masters, Chief Executive of the Premier League; and Mark Ives, General Manager of the National League. For this session, we have until 11 am.
I call the first Member who wishes to ask questions, Stephanie Peacock.
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Thank you all for joining us. The reason we are here is that self-regulation of football has not worked, particularly in relation to financial sustainability. Obviously, therefore, the Government have introduced this Bill, which we support. One of the key parts of the Bill is the owners and directors tests. Do you think that the current owners and directors tests are fit for purpose? Does the Bill improve them? Will you continue with your own owners and directors tests when the regulator is conducting their tests? Those questions are to each member of the panel.
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Communications from the Premier League have stopped short of outright rejecting the Bill, but have warned against unintended consequences. Could you outline what those unintended consequences might be?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Do the Premier League’s own rules not specifically address the way money is invested into clubs? What is different, therefore, about the regulator monitoring this?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
I have one more question for all three of the panel.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I am going to move on to the Minister, as we are going to be short of time.
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q The regulator will have a duty to work with the leagues when they are exercising their regulatory functions and have regard to the existing rules within your leagues. How do you see that working in practice, and how are you reforming your own structures to ensure that regulation works effectively? You talked about unintended consequences, Richard—can I just push you to give the Committee a specific example of what those might be?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Richard Masters, at the beginning you raised some concerns about the checks on new owners. You said you wanted a process that was governed by objectivity and certainty—I think those were the words you used. A lot of people would look at the live example of Everton and 777 Partners and say that that does not look like a situation that is being governed by objectivity and certainty, and that it is the kind of case where the regulator may well have taken a different view from the Premier League and may well have rejected the takeover. Given your concerns about the regulator in this regard, and given that, after eight months, 777 has still not met the criteria that the Premier League has set, I would be interested to know why the Premier League has not rejected it.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q It would seem that there is a real role for the regulator here, because the regulator could make this a lot simpler by saying, “You demonstrate the proof of funds and where you’re raising those funds from, and until you can do that, the answer is going to be no. You can come to us when you’re ready.”
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q How would you respond if you were overruled? What would be the effect if the regulator took a different view from you?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q This question is for Rick Parry. Where a potential owner has a track record of being associated with clubs overseas that have got into difficulties, do you believe the Bill has enough powers to prevent that in future?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
Gentlemen, one thing thatQ has been raised is international investment and creating a level playing field with other leagues. Do you still have any particular concerns there? One of the previous witnesses we interviewed suggested that, at the moment, what we are doing is very light touch. Do you think that is still the case? Richard, perhaps I could ask you that first.
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
Q Thank you. Rick, is that also the case for the EFL?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
Q Thank you. Mark, at the moment, the regulator covers only the top five tiers—obviously, it is going to cover the National League, but not National League North or South, or below that. Do you think that is the right way forward? Do you think it should be wider, or do you think it should be narrower?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q I first put on the record that we thank you, Richard, for your support on tragedy chanting. You have been fantastic. I also put on the record my thanks to you, Rick, for accepting the 13,000 signatures we gave you in 2001, I think, to stop Liverpool moving from Anfield to Speke, which would have been a disaster for our heritage. That was without the Independent Football Regulator, so well done.
My question is about financial sustainability, the profit and sustainability rules, and the lack of authority within the scope of the Independent Football Regulator. All supporters want a predictable, transparent, principled, proportionate, fair and timely system. Richard, from a Premier League perspective, I think that if you speak to the supporters of the clubs—Everton or Forest—they do not feel as though they have had that. There has been lots of confusion about the whole process and how punishment has been meted out. Then there is what happened with Manchester City—115 charges, but nothing as yet. Why would we not want to protect the integrity of the process—and the Premier League and, when it comes to that, the EFL? Why would we not want to give to the Independent Football Regulator the ability to mete out punishment in a fair and transparent manner?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Order. While cases are pending, I ask Members to be careful about naming individual clubs in matters that may be sub judice.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Noted, Sir Mark.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q You feel that a good job has been done by the Premier League this season with regards to those clubs.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q On the scope of the regulator, Rick, would you concur with Richard’s opinion?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
You think it is down to the leagues.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
It is about making sure this is transparent, and there has to be confidence in the integrity of the process.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Ian, we are going to have to move on.
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q The difference between the three leagues is quite striking, in terms of the levels of investment, the scale and the nature of the operations that individual clubs run, and the way that they fail. In the last session, we heard about two quite contrasting pictures of the regulator. Dr Philippou talked about the Bill providing for a very light-touch regulator, but Mr Maguire seemed to talk about something much more interventionist that monitors things and intervenes when problems might be about to occur or develop. I am curious about how each of you sees that balance playing out, and how important it is for your league. Perhaps I can start with you, Mr Masters.
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Sorry, just to be explicit, my question is whether you think that the regulator is there to control bad actors or whether the regulator is there to intervene when it sees that somebody is about to make a mistake.
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Mr Parry?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Thank you. Mr Ives?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q I want particularly to look at clause 55(2)(b), which you are probably all very familiar with. Could I ask for your view on that provision—the removal from the regulator’s backstop powers of the ability to look at parachute payments? Did you lobby Ministers to include it?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
So you lobbied to have that included.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q I expect the EFL has a different view?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q We had a very detailed submission from the EFL, explaining your understanding of the current distribution of media money within the EFL and the Premier League and what the challenges were. I do not think we have had anything similar from the Premier League, have we? You have not given us your understanding of the current position and what you would like to see it changed to, if you want to see any change?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
The EFL have given us their understanding of the current distribution of funding within the Premier League and the EFL, particularly around media funding, and what sort of changes they would like to see. I do not think we have had a submission from the Premier League identifying what your understanding of the position is and what changes, if any, you would like to see.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
So that is it? So you do not want to see any changes?Q
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We must move on, Clive.
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q The panel will appreciate that the UK has nuclear weapons and there is coding for what happens in the event of a catastrophic diplomatic failure. All that coding is well thought through but the outcome is never 100% certain, and he who pulls the trigger is not always going to be the winner. Do you appreciate that part 6 of the Bill is the nuclear equivalent for football? Do you also appreciate that, really, part 6 should never be triggered, and the only way it will be triggered is if there continues to be a catastrophic failure, between the parties on the panel, to come to a deal? Do you appreciate that part 6 has been written into the Bill because, frankly, you guys have not come to a deal?
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
That is part 6, yes.
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q Mark, I will come to you for your views but—with no disrespect—I would like to hear what Richard and Rick say.
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q Do you think it is a game of Russian roulette, though, Rick?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
The last question is to Rachel, because I think you are repeating yourself.
Rachel Hopkins (Labour, Luton South)
I will summarise my question, so each of you can reply about the state of the game report. How important is it? Are there any specific topics you think it should cover? Should it be initially within a certain timeframe, and subsequently, at what sort of intervalsQ ?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Q I will give the last minute to Rick and then Mark.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Order.
Examination of Witness
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We will now hear oral evidence from Kevin Miles, Chief Executive of the Football Supporters’ Association. Could the witness please introduce themselves for the record.
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Good morning, and welcome. The FSA has been lobbying for significant reform to football governance for years; do you think this Bill meets the challenge, and do you think it lives up to the fan-led review? As you have just referenced, you have had significant input into thatQ .
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q I am sure that your thanks will be much appreciated, and is echoed of course by the Committee. On the point about fans, I have some questions on that, about whether you think the measures are adequate enough. Do you think the Bill carves out enough space for the existing supporters trusts, and could you share a little about the value of those trusts with the Committee?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Are there any particular topics that you would expect fans to be consulted on but that the Bill does not require?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q First of all, thank you, Kevin, for what you said about the officials. You are absolutely right; they have been superb throughout this whole process. Thank you, too, for your engagement.
I remember when I was first appointed, the first meeting I had was with you and with other fans. It was clear from that meeting that some clubs do engagement extremely well and, as you have just alluded to, there are others that do it differently. Given that fan engagement is part of the licensing regime, do you think that that is going to be sufficient to bring about a significant impact on the quality of fan engagement that we are currently seeing across the board? That is, are we levelling up, to coin a phrase?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Kevin, on the regulatory principles, I have tabled an amendment saying that supporters and supporter organisations should be added to clause 8(b). Does the organisation you represent agree with that?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q I am happy to get that on the record. I welcome what you said about the ticket prices potentially being included in one of the clauses. I do not think we mentioned kick-off times, which can be changed at the drop of a hat, meaning that hotel bookings have to be cancelled and travel expenses cannot be returned. That is a hugely important element in lots of anger from football supporters. How do we ensure that this is included in the regulatory oversight?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Clubs have to produce a corporate governance report annually as part of their licensing agreement. Do you think there is scope there for the clubs to be required by the regulator to set out in that report what their policies for fan engagement are, and then the regulator would have the right to audit them on that?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q I have one other question. One of the biggest concerns for fans is when a club leaves its ground. That can be an extreme case, as in years ago with MK Dons and Wimbledon, which is probably something that could not happen again now. We have seen cases where you have a dispute between the ground owner—a third-party private company—and the club. We saw that problem with Coventry City a few years ago. That was a clear example of where the club says, “We can’t afford to pay the rent that the landlord wants to charge us. We think it’s extortionate”, and they have no option other than to move on. Under the Bill as drafted, if the club made a compelling case to say that sustainability required moving away from the ground, the regulator would sanction it even if the fans were against. Do we need a better mechanism in place to try to resolve these issues and get a fair settlement on rents for clubs to play in grounds, with a view to avoiding their having to move and enabling them to carry on and play where they are?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We move from the fans’ views to the person who started all this with the fan-led review—Tracey.
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q Kevin, you have given a very eloquent and passionate explanation about why you would like to see the Bill improved for fans and the general supporter base. You have also made representations about your wider concerns, so I thought you might like the opportunity to explain some of those to the Committee.
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q It has been wonderful to hear the fans’ voice in what you have said and contributed previously to this whole process in bringing us to where we are. In the previous sessions, it has been quite interesting to hear how the English Football League and the National League, for example, were clearly feeling that it was, in what I think were Rick Parry’s words, an “unequal negotiation”. This Bill strikes me as trying to level the playing field, if you will pardon the pun, between different interest groups. Do you think the Bill gives you, as fans, the leverage to exert more control? I ask that because the Bill focuses heavily on finance. It includes other things such as heritage, but there is more to being a football fan than just the heritage. Do you think it gives you that leverage on those non-financial aspects as well?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
Q What would you say is the biggest concern of those who do not necessarily want to see greater fan engagement? Do you think those are reasonable concerns or are they overstated?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
I think it is the same with politicians.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions in this morning’s sitting. On behalf of the Committee, I would like to thank all our witnesses for their evidence. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm this afternoon in the Boothroyd Room to continue taking oral evidence. I ask Members to turn up five to 10 minutes early, just to sort out the lines of questioning.
(Afternoon)
Examination of Witnesses
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
We will now hear from Darryl Eales, chairman of Solihull Moors football club, and Steve Thompson MBE, managing director of Dagenham & Redbridge football club. We have until 2.30 pm for this panel. Would the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
Before I ask Members to put any questions, I declare an interest: I am the patron of my local football club, Southall football club.
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Thanks for joining us. By way of an opening question, do you have any thoughts or views on the regulator and its establishment? If a steer is helpful, what would or could the regulator do to ensure that clubs such as yours feel supported in a transition to regulation in this fashion?Q61
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q On the point about proportionality, do you think the Bill does enough to emphasise that the regulator’s approach will be proportionate and will attempt to understand the specific circumstances of clubs playing in the National League? I think you both mentioned that point, while Steve Thompson made the point about funding. How important is it to you that National League clubs can pay a lower levy than those in the upper divisions, and does the Bill go far enough to reassure you of that?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q I am aware of the time, because I know others want to come in, and I think that you have touched on what I am going to ask. Could you share with the Committee the sort of connection that your club has to the local community and fans and how important it is that your club listens to fans? Indeed, how does it carry out that listening?
Shaun Bailey (Conservative, West Bromwich West)
I want to touch more on the point about the proportionality of the Bill. I am looking at the part 5 duties. Do you think that this strikes a balance between regulating clubs like yours and making sure there is a framework, and allowing you to run your clubs in the way you need to? Darryl, Q if we take Solihull Moors as an example, you are a club that has come out of a merger, effectively, with other clubs and you have had to be agile in how you have done that. If you look at the journey you guys have been on, how do you think that you would have been impacted if this framework had been in place at the time?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
I was interested in what you said about artificial pitches, Mr Thompson, because in my constituency I have Folkestone Invicta, in the Isthmian League. From what I can see, the Bromley FC model is the sort of model, from a financial sustainability point of view, that a lot of clubs in tiers five, six and seven should be following, because you have not only community use, but paid use of the site every day of the week, rather than a match every fortnight. Do you think that this should be looked at as part of a sustainability issue rather than a football competition issue? Actually, the sustainability of clubs going up into the Football League might necessitate that they have those sorts of facilities, which they monetise throughout the year, and their removal is not just a flat cost but something that compromises their commercial performance across the boardQ .
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Obviously, the principal job of the regulator will be financial sustainability. Briefly, do you think one of the issues that we have is this? We have inherited a structure for how football is organised that puts clubs into certain divisions. You could say that there are financial issues at almost every step, as we go up and down, and that clubs in the bottom half of League One and in League Two probably have more in common with the National League clubs than they have with those in the Championship. Do you think there should be common rules that reflect clubs that are effectively community clubs? They will probably never be Premier League clubs, but they need a different kind of model of sustainability.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q It is inherent in what you said that the financial sustainability rules in the National League are more effective than those in Leagues One and Two.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
To pick up on what you said, Darryl, regarding the importance of grassroots football as the lifeblood of the game, is there anything that you feel is missing from the Bill to protect or enhance grassroots football?Q
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Would that be captured under heritage?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
It is, yes.
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q Moving on from that, how does fan engagement look in your club, and does the Bill add to or enhance it? What is your opinion? We sort of have fan engagement from the Premier League perspective, but what it is like at your level?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
First, thank you for all your engagements so far as we have been preparing the Bill. On the point about proportionality, you made good representations as we were preparing the Bill. I hope the Bill reflects that the amount of work you will have to do will be dependent on where you are in the pyramid.Q
If the Bill goes through, there will be a statutory regulator. What discussions have clubs had with the National League about whether it will row back and allow the statutory regulator to do the work so that there is no duplication?
Secondly, the independent experts we had in this morning said that clubs are looking in the rear-view mirror at the moment and that the advocacy-first approach means that there will be a real-time approach to analysis of clubs, which would be helpful for clubs. Do you agree?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Mr Eales, I was really struck by your comment that you question the motives of owners higher up the leagues. Something that came through strongly for me in this morning’s session was the differences between the leagues: differences in motives, if I understand you correctly; differences in the level of contact owners have with fans, which was a very important point that you made; and, I suspect, a difference in the closeness to the operations of the organisation.Q
I am interested in how clubs fail, too. This touches on what the Minister was just saying: where should the balance of the regulator fall? Should it simply issue licenses, have a fitness test for owners, and so on—take more of a “control the bad actors” approach—or should it be more interventionist and say, “We think there’s a problem here; we think there’s a mismanagement. They’re going to make a mistake, and it’s going to cause problems”? Where does the balance properly fall?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q You just said that clubs fail because of lack of money. That is not the case, is it?
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
We do not have much time left. Please be brief in your answer.
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time for this Committee to ask questions to this panel. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee. Thank you very much.
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
Q We will now hear from Ian Mather, the director of Cambridge United football club, and Sharon Brittan, the chair of Bolton Wanderers football club. We have until 3 pm for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Thank you, both, and good afternoon. Do you believe it costs more to remain competitive in League One this season compared with previous seasons, and if so, by how much? What are the reasons behind that, and what are the long-term effects that they might have on your club?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q I have one more question, but first a brief supplementary. Thanks for both your answers, but given the experience in Bolton in the past five years that you outlined —I think you used the phrase “dire circumstances”—what more could the Bill do to support your club in those circumstances?
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
With respect, we have many questions, so may we have brief answers?
Chris Green (Conservative, Bolton West)
Sharon, as the local Member of Parliament representing Bolton Wanderers, I just want to say that the transformation for local communities has been absolutely phenomenalQ —
Chris Green (Conservative, Bolton West)
I have some sense of this already, but does the Bill go far enough to empower the regulator in the distribution of funds?
Chris Green (Conservative, Bolton West)
Q This point will be brought to a head this coming Saturday. We do not know what the result will be—we can have our wishes—but most people on the outside will think going up a league is a phenomenal success that we should celebrate, whereas actually, it brings a bit of trauma, doesn’t it?
Chris Green (Conservative, Bolton West)
Q When we think about good business, with you coming in with those cultures and values from a healthy business environment, and that culture shock when you come into football, this is the divide that the football regulator Bill ought to be bridging.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
I want to focus on the point you just made. Obviously, Bolton had a terribly difficult time. If this Bill had been passed five or six years ago, would it have stopped Bolton getting into that mess, or is it that the financial distribution would still be needed to change the world in such a way?Q
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q You have described your situation at Cambridge, with an owner who is philanthropically putting a lot of money into your club. Where does a club go to if that suddenly stops?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
It will only increase on Saturday!
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Sharon, your passion is obvious, and I am sure that if the Clerks could craft an amendment to the Bill to have you cloned, we would all support it. Ian, you sort of answered this question, but I will ask it again: there has been a lot of scaremongering about the impact of the Bill and some of the unintended consequences—the duplication and so on—but is there anything in the Bill that you fear? That question is to both of you.Q
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
You have spoken so eloquently. I am looking at this from the perspective of my local club Reading, which has had very serious problems with the current owner. The previous owner was absolutely wonderful in creating a positive Q culture. My question is: how do we find more owners with the right intentions and motivation, and help them to play a bigger role?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q I think I have to ask this, given everything you have said in your very compelling evidence. How has Ipswich Town managed to do what you called the “near impossible”?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q You are saying that they had external investment that helped them to compete? Obviously, Luton has gone from League One to the Premier League, as has Brentford. What is the secret behind that? Is it the ownership money?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q But the three clubs I mentioned—Brentford, Luton and Ipswich—is it simply about owners putting in enough money to be able to compete, and without it they cannot? Is that really what has happened?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q I wish you well—I think you said the Premier League in three years for Bolton? I think that was the target you set yourself there for people.
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
We now hear from Tony Bloom MBE, chair and owner of Brighton and Hove Albion Football Club, and Steve Parish, co-owner and chair of Crystal Palace Football Club. We have until 3.30 pm for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce yourselves for the record?
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
Thanks.
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Good afternoon to you both: thank you for joining us. One of the factors that led to the fan-led review and, indeed, the Bill, was the European Super League proposal. Had that been successful, what would the impact have been on your club?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q In posing my second question, I would like to preface it with quotes from you both. Tony, in 2022 you told The Athletic:
“Not a lot irritates me in football...Maybe the governing bodies of FIFA and UEFA, who both regulate the game but also run tournaments. There’s a big conflict there.”
Steve, in 2023 you were reported as saying:
“The people organising the tournaments and the people regulating them, and taxing those tournaments for the greater good, should be two different people.”
In the context of those quotes, are you pleased to see an independent regulator established that can help regulate football finances without a conflict of interest?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q I appreciate the point you are making, and obviously we are very supportive of the Premier League being incredibly successful, but half the clubs in the top five leagues are technically insolvent. The independent regulator is obviously here to try to deal with some of those issues. Very briefly and very simply, do you welcome the concept of an independent regulator?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q I want to ask Steve Parish first, and then I would welcome your comments, Tony. Steve, you referred to the danger of domination by the big clubs—I think you rightly alluded to the fact that in some ways the Premier League is a two-tier league. Is that not made worse by, effectively, a competition that sets its own rules and organises itself?
Within the Premier League board, you have all those big clubs. Would it be more effective to allow some of the enforcement and supervision of the league’s rules to be done by an independent regulator that is, if you like, separate from the politics of football? It is set up by Government, it is not open to being lobbied or cajoled, and it is not making decisions on the regulation of clubs that it has to trade off against other decisions that are taken by Premier League clubs about how they organise the affairs of their league.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Tony, do you have anything to add to that?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q If we passed an amendment to the Bill that made parachute payments illegal and they were scrapped, how would that affect your preparations for next season?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q I have a couple of issues to put to both of you. You have said that everything works well. I think most people would be in disbelief at hearing that statement, because we all can see problems in football right the way through. Individual clubs have had them. There are problems right through the leagues in terms of funding and insolvency. Both your clubs nearly got to the point of extinction. Can you not see the need for regulation to stop grounds being sold away from clubs and to stop clubs going into administration repeatedly and facing those problems?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q Is it not true that the Premier League actually has more money than any two other European leagues put together?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q Some might argue that the regulator is there to put backstop powers in place in general to try and stop that unsustainability of clubs going bust, when fans then have no team to support.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q It seems that both of you are arguing from a completely self-interested point of view. You are saying that, “It is terrible in the Premier League because the few at the top are rigging the system to suit themselves with the help of European competition, and we in the rest of the Premier League clubs find this unfair, and the distribution of resources ought to be fairer to us; however, when we look down to the EFL, we say we do not want parachute payments to end because that disadvantages Championship clubs, so we are happy to support that because it supports our friends in the Premier League”. Is all that self-interest?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q Should the regulator not have the power to do that?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q Tony, I was interested in the comments that you made a moment ago. You said that your concern about the regulations and the Bill is that your preference would be for the Premier League, EFL and National League to all work together for a solution for the future of football. Why has that not happened?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Let me finish my question. There has been talk of a regulator for a much shorter period than there have been issues relating to the historical problems in football; this has not just happened since the publication of the White Paper or the fan-led review. The reason why the fan-led review was brought in the first place was that a solution had not been brought by football. My question again is why that has not happened, because that is why we are here today—because football has not stepped up.
Turning to another thing that I want to talk about, I agree with you and I am glad to hear that you want to see the sustainability of clubs within the pyramid. The independent experts who we heard this morning said that the problem in the past was that too many clubs were looking in the rear-view mirror, whereas this Bill presents us with a real-time approach that will identify problems much earlier so that they can be addressed. Do you welcome that?
My final question is about fan engagement—to change the subject completely. I am interested in whether you think the Bill hits the right notes on that and what you do there, because I hear that you have an interesting approach as a club.
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q The first question was, why has football not sorted this out?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q You are both custodians of the clubs that you own, and bloody good ones, to be fair—you are two of the better ones. Would you not agree that if something happened to you and you had to walk away from them, having the regulator would mean that there was a better chance of getting two custodians like yourselves, and not like some we have seen previously? I am speaking about the experience of Liverpool, with Hicks and Gillett, and what is happening at Everton now. The status quo cannot prevail. For the benefit of your clubs, when you move on, do you not think that the regulator gives you a better chance of getting better owners?
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
I ask the witnesses to send their responses in writing, as I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Examination of Witness
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
We will now hear from David Newton of the Football Association. We have until 3.50 pm for this session. Will the witness please introduce himself for the record?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q One of the key parts of the Bill is the state of the game report. What value do you think it will have and what timescale should it be carried out within to be of most benefit?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Competition arrangements, such as the FA cup fixtures, do not fall within the scope of the Bill. Do you think that is the right choice, and why? Feel free to take this opportunity to add anything on the changes to FA cup replays and why they happened the way they did.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q One of the comments on the Football Bill is that it does not particularly mention players, and that the scope of the regulator is purely financial and about financial sustainability. The clubs also, as part of their licensing agreement with the regulator, have to produce a corporate governance report. Do you think the Football Association would have any objection if, as part of that governance report, the regulator asked clubs to demonstrate not only how they are financially sustainable but how they met all their other obligations?
Football clubs are not only licensed by the regulator. They are licensed by the Football Association as well. There are articles of association of the Football Association, which place responsibilities on all clubs. Do you think it would be good and proper due diligence for clubs to have to demonstrate through their corporate governance reporting how they meet all their obligations within football—to the FA, to their players and to the welfare standards they are expected to follow?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Would you want some assurance that the job of the regulator in this regard might be to request the information and check up on the clubs, but not to have a role in setting the welfare standards, which would be the remit of the competition organisers and the FA?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q That was perhaps not the best use of words. I meant if information was brought to the regulator, or if it had reasonable grounds to be concerned; its primary job would not be to check on those things, but it could relay that information back to you as the FA, which has investigatory powers of its own. It is more a question of whether, in principle, you think that those sorts of standards should be incorporated into the corporate governance standards that the regulator should set. That would simply be good practice.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q It has been mentioned that the remit of the regulator and the legislation is on things that do not matter to the FA, but do to the fans, such as the FA Cup. One of the objectives of the regulator is to safeguard the heritage of English football. Do you not think that the FA Cup is part of that heritage?
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q I think most fans would think that FA Cup replays were part of that heritage.
Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield South East)
Q Are you frustrated at the FA that, somehow, this great competition and its heritage are being undermined by the interests of a handful of clubs who are going to play European games? It is the top few clubs, again, driving what happens for everybody else.
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q We have heard, in these sessions and beforehand, about the scope of the Bill. Some feel it goes too far; some feel it does not go far enough. Can you talk about your perspective of its narrowness in terms of financial regulation, and why that matters in relation to the relationships and statutes that FIFA and UEFA have?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q To return briefly to the point that Clive made, there is enormous strength of feeling among many fans and clubs about the replays. What is the process for reviewing that decision?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q What will you be able to do for seasons in the future?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q I have to come back to this question about being custodians of heritage, because there is something really important here. Mr Parish said that money is pouring in from Europe. On the question of replays, the issue is that clubs are not going to play fewer games; they are going to play more games that are more valuable. It seems that in the decision that you have reached, you have looked at it purely transactionally: “We have a competition; we need to see results.” It is not even just about hope. You have cut out the match-day experience, the travelling to a new ground, and the stories that fathers tell sons and daughters over the years. Can you understand why fans, when they look at this decision, think that it should fall under the scope of a regulator?
Rachel Hopkins (Labour, Luton South)
On heritage, the Bill gives fans say over club colours and club crest, but the ultimate say on club names stays with the FA. That is based on existing FA rules, if I am correct?Q
Rachel Hopkins (Labour, Luton South)
Q Can you give us a bit more of an explanation as to why fans are not given any say over names in these rules?
Rachel Hopkins (Labour, Luton South)
Yes.
Rachel Hopkins (Labour, Luton South)
Q When you are collating those opinions to make important decisions such as that, how do you ensure that it is as accessible to fans as possible, and that there is a genuine emphasis on their involvement?
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q I have two quick questions. Are you content that the Bill preserves the FA’s position as the governing body for football in England, and are you content with your role as an official observer on the board? Secondly, in previous correspondence, the FA has been keen to ensure that there were no unintended consequences for women’s football. Are you satisfied that that is the case?
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
Q We will hear from Jane Purdon, the former CEO and director of Women in Football, who is now an ambassador for the same organisation. We have until 4.10 pm for this session. Will the witness please introduce herself for the record?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Do you think that the Government are right to exclude the women’s game from the scope of the regulator to start with? Do you think that it should be included in the future?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q You mentioned the Carney review. What progress do you think is being made on those recommendations? Is there enough legislative impetus behind the review?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Do you think there is a risk that clubs make asset transfers from the women’s game to the men’s game in order to become financially sustainable?
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q Good to see you, Jane. You are obviously involved in Women in Football, which is not always about women’s football. Do you think clubs are making enough progress in ensuring that there are more women on their boards and that there is greater diversity in the boardroom? What do you think the regulator should or could be involved in in the future?
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q Yes, the world of sport did not fall apart by having more women on boards. Going back to the game, when Charlton were relegated, one of the first things they did was ditch their women’s team. That is not unique; other clubs have done exactly the same. Should the club’s licensing requirements state that clubs have to continue their investment in the women’s game regardless of where they are in the leagues?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Following on from the previous question, I have asked different witnesses about the corporate governance statement that clubs are required to make. I think you touched on that. Do you think it would be appropriate for clubs to have to consider how they meet their wider obligations as part of that corporate governance statement? I think it would be relevant to the regulator if a club was seeking to meet its financial regulatory standards by trimming back on other things it should be doing.
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q Would you have a problem if it was merely a requirement for clubs? Clubs have certain obligations they are expected to meet by their competition organisers or by the Football Association, and as part of corporate governance they have an explanatory statement about how they do that?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q One final question. The commercial development of women’s football seems to be on an exciting path of growth. Where you have Premier League clubs that have men’s and women’s teams, do you think the club should be regulated—or do you think that they should be regulated separately because they are competing in different competitions?
Damian Collins (Conservative, Folkestone and Hythe)
Q I suppose ultimately, however it is done, we would want the same standards to apply to everyone. Clubs that have a men’s team and a women’s team should be regulated in the same way as clubs that just have a women’s team.
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q I am an MP from north Wales. The Football Association of Wales told me that girls drop out of football at teen age. That is the big cliff edge, and it is principally to do with facilities that are available, as it is a time when that is particularly important. What do you think are the biggest barriers to women participating in football?
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witness. We will move on.
Examination of Witnesses
Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)
We will now hear from Robert Sullivan, CEO of the Football Foundation; Niall Couper, CEO of Fair Game; and Simon Orriss, head of legal at Fair Game. We have until 4.40 pm for this session. Will the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q I will begin with a couple of questions for the Football Foundation, then I will direct some questions to Fair Game. The grassroots football in my constituency of Barnsley East is struggling, particularly with facilities and pitch. I know we have communicated about Wombwell Main and Wombwell Town. There is also Worsbrough FC. Is the experience that I have in Barnsley the same across the country? What more do you think the Bill could do to protect grassroots sport?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q On specific changes that could be made to the Bill to protect grassroots football, do you think that grassroots football should receive the excess money from the regulator—excess money in the sense that it has been gathered in interest, for example, rather than the consolidated fund? If it finds that it has that money, through whatever means, should it come to grassroots sport and what difference could that make?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Can I ask what you mean by unintended consequences?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q I appreciate that explanation. As the Member for Chatham and Aylesford outlined in one of the earlier sessions, it is hoped that it is a backstop and is not used, but it was helpful to have that clarification. As time is short, may I move briefly to question Fair Game? I know that other Members want to come in.
You have been campaigning for a long time on many of the matters that are addressed in the Bill. As a way of giving a view, are you pleased overall with the independent regulator that is proposed in the Bill, and do you have broader comments to add?
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Q Do you believe the Bill as it stands will ensure the appointments to the expert panel and the board of the regulator are free from vested interests? What kind of experts do you think should make up the expert panel?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q I chair the parliamentary football club and have often said that I am a terrible fan. I have never held a season ticket in my life, but I have played grassroots football, badly, for about 45 years. It is fantastic to see you here today, Mr Sullivan.
DCMS has done a brilliant job in making sure that money gets out to grassroots clubs. I have seen some in my own constituency, even though that is over the border in north Wales and comes via the Football Association of Wales.
You have just said something that I have written down—every MP has grassroots football clubs in their constituency. Potentially, every single MP here has an interest in voting to see money vired directly to grassroots football.
You make the point about the key transaction between the Premier League and the English Football League. I am curious, however, about how that might happen. Is the structure in place to cope with, suddenly, tens of thousands of projects across the UK? Is the FA—I will use the phrase— fit for use, in terms of distributing and monitoring that? What do you think needs to be done from your end of the telescope?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q You are telling me what is already there, which I understand. Could it cope with the massive uplift that would come from money coming through in the way that you wish?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
Q Mr Couper, do you have any comments on that?
Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)
If I ask more questions, the Whip will start getting nervous about amendments that I might want to lay down. I will just say that every community has churches, pubs and football clubs, and there is a good reason for asking these questions.
Rachel Hopkins (Labour, Luton South)
Q Can you give us an insight into why clubs benefit from having greater measures on equality, diversity and inclusion?
Rachel Hopkins (Labour, Luton South)
Q How do you think EDI can be best incorporated into the regulator’s regime without going out of the scope of the Bill?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
I have been looking at the regulations that UEFA and FIFA have on their involvement generally in the governance Q of football, and their requirements about what Governments can and cannot do. We have tried to be very careful with setting up the regulator. How do you feel that interacts with some of the changes that you would like to see? Is there a big barrier, or is there anything that you think could be changed on that level that might be useful? How do you feel that affects the scope of what we can achieve? Has that been a big problem for you, would you say?
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
Q I want to ask quickly about grassroots football. My constituency has benefited from the Football Foundation, as I think most people’s around the table have. What positive role do you see this as having in encouraging more partners to work with organisations such as yourself? Is the Independent Football Regulator in a good place to help drive that, or is this again something where we are looking at the overarching security of other organisations that are going to be the ones pushing it? Is there a role for the football regulator to do more with your organisation?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q Do you think the Bill does enough at the moment to ensure that fans have a meaningful say on what matters most to them? Also, are there areas where you would like to see the Bill go further, with further say for fans?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q I will ask a second question about grassroots football. I was thinking about this, because I have two kids who used to play and had regular problems with waterlogged pitches and other issues: how would you describe the state of grassroots pitches and provision across the country?
Tracey Crouch (Conservative, Chatham and Aylesford)
Q The original fan-led review had a transfer levy recommendation that was proposed to the panel by somebody from the Premier League. The Bill was not necessarily the right place to include that proposal but, presumably, given the fact that it was designed as a policy that would invest in grassroots sports, certainly further down the pyramid, is that something that you would still at some point be interested in seeing?
Ian Byrne (Labour, Liverpool, West Derby)
Q That is what Tracey proposed for the grassroots. This question is more to you, Robert. You do fantastic work, undoubtedly. Some of the Football Foundation hubs are magnificent—we have got four in Liverpool—but there is an issue around cost, and I am wondering whether that comes under regulation scope, as we go down the line with implementation. In an incident last year, an under-13 team was getting charged £194 an hour to use one of the hubs. That takes away totally the ability to play football. With the huge rise in the popularity of football through the women’s game and given the absolute need for the pitches, as you said, who will regulate the cost to ensure that they are affordable for every single person in the country?