Tobacco and Vapes Bill
Public Bill Committee, 30 April 2024.
(Morning)
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I will begin with a couple of preliminary announcements. Hansard would be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent. It goes without saying, and I can see that nobody is intending to do otherwise, but tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion. We will then consider a further motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication, and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope we can take these questions formally without debate.
Examination of witnesses
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We are now sitting in public again, and our proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, do any Members wish to declare their interests in connection with the Bill?
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
I chair the all-party parliamentary group on smoking and health.
Bambos Charalambous (Independent, Enfield, Southgate)
I do not know whether it is an actual declaration, but I did the Cancer Research 10k fun run in February—the winter run.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
That is more of a boast than a declaration of interest.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
I am an NHS consultant paediatrician, and a member of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
I am a practising psychologist, and I also chair the all-party parliamentary health group.
Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)
Sir George, do we have to declare our memberships of any groups? I am a member of the all-party parliamentary group for responsible vaping.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Well, whether it was required or not, you have now done it.
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
I am, too.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from Michelle Mitchell, the chief executive of Cancer Research UK, Deborah Arnott, the chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health, and Sheila Duffy, the chief executive of ASH Scotland. To begin with, I will call on Michelle Mitchell.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Witnesses may wish initially to introduce themselves or to make a presentation. I am open minded about that. I call Deborah Arnott.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Yes.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. Finally, I call on Sheila Duffy. Unnecessary though it may seem, I ask each of our witnesses to state your name and title for the record—you could do it now, Sheila. The other two witnesses could do it later.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. I now intend to take two questions each from the Opposition spokesperson and the Minister. Given that we have very restricted time, I impress upon the witnesses that they need to be very brief in their answers.
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
You will have seen on Second Reading that there is almost universal agreement on the basic point that smoking is bad, and that we want to see smoking rates come down and to have a smoke-free future. A lot of Members of Parliament raised other issues, especially about raising the age of sale. Can you explain why you support a complete ban as the right way to deliver a smoke-free future?Q
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Are you going to have just one question, or do you want to put two?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Do you want me to ask the second question now as well?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Yes, please.
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
My second question is on the point that Sheila raised. Clause 61 gives the Secretary of State powers to regulate on packaging, vaping or nicotine products. Clause 62 makes regulations for the Secretary of State to have powers on substances that may be included and the flavour of vaping. Do you believe that the measures in the Bill to prevent vapes appealing to children are likely to work, and where can we learn lessons to ensure their effectiveness?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Minister—your questions.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Do you want me to ask both questions now?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Yes.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Could you talk us through ASH’s assessment of the economic cost to the UK economy of smoking? Secondly, what is your view on the importance of restricting vaping for children?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Can we start with Sheila Duffy, please?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
In view of the pressure on time, I ask the two other witnesses, if they agree with what has already been said, to say so and then make any additional points that need to be made. Obviously, if you do not agree, that changes the nature of it.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q Would you state your latest research for the record, though? Obviously, this Committee is here to provide the evidence on the record.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Can I interrupt you there? The rules do not allow the use of props.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will overlook the fact that you have already used them.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. Michelle Mitchell—again, could you just make additional points that have not already been made?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. I will take two more questions from Members, one after the other.
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Public health messaging is most effective when it is simple. Should the restrictions on vaping being advertised on football shirts, for instance, be in line with those on tobacco advertising, and should there be similar restrictions on where people can vape as there are for smokingQ ?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
I want to ask about the passive effect of vaping. We know that if you are proximal to someone vaping you can smell the blueberry flavour, or whatever it is. Do you have any evidence on the passive health effects of vapes?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Could we start with Michelle Mitchell, please?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Is that the settled view of all three of you?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. I will take two more questions, from Kirsten Oswald and Bob Blackman.
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
To expand on a point made earlier, I wonder what more is necessary in terms of promotion and advertising action. I am very concerned about the matter of football strips and, indeed, sports stadiums being sponsored by vaping companies. The messages that that sends to the young people who are taking up vaping in such numbers is hugely problematic. It strikes me that within your areas of expertise there are probably other areas where we could extend what we are seeking to do here, in order that we do the best job possible of trying to close these loopholesQ .
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
All three witnesses have given support for the Bill. You have already suggested one change that could be made in terms of age verification, similar to the system in Scotland. Are there any other changes that you think should be implemented that could make the Bill stronger? One of the concerns that many of us have is that we get only a limited number of chances to deal with this challenge in primary legislation, so we need to get in as much as we can to make sure that we achieve the smoke-free England that we all want to see.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have five minutes left and I do not think there will be time for any further questions. I may have missed it, but I am not sure whether anybody responded to Rachel Maskell’s points. In responding, could you cover those as well?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Including where people can vape, yes.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
That would be helpful, thank you. We are up against the clock, but is there anything additional that either of the other two witnesses want to say very briefly?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you very much. Apologies that it was all a bit rushed, but the nature of these things is that we have to use the time as effectively as possible. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for their helpful evidence and guidance. We very much appreciate it.
Examination of Witnesses
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from Dr Charmaine Griffiths, the chief executive of the British Heart Foundation, and Sarah Sleet, the chief executive officer of Asthma and Lung UK. We have until 10.40 am for this session. Could I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves and give their titles for the record? Then we will move into the questions.
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q You will know that the Government have a clear target to narrow the gap in healthy life expectancy between the highest and lowest areas in the next five years. Do you think that smoking rates are particularly high in certain parts of the country, and are the health benefits following the ban therefore likely to be more prevalent in some places than in others? That is my first question. Secondly, I am concerned about the huge rise in youth vaping in recent years. Are you concerned about the increase in vaping even among groups who have not previously smoked cigarettes?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will also take the Minister, and then we can answer both sets of questions together.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
I am also interested in the impact of smoking and vaping on children’s hearts and lungs in particular. I would very much appreciate hearing the professional assessment of you both of the particular vulnerability of children’s lungs and hearts, as compared with adults. I know that the Opposition spokesman and I share that grave concern, as do a number of colleagues. My second question is: do you expect the smoke-free generation policy to stop young people starting smoking?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I do not know which order you want to take the questions in.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Sarah, is there anything you wish to add to that?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. Can Members of the Committee who want to ask a question indicate so.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q I asked a specific question about children’s asthma and children’s heart damage. Could I urge our witnesses to respond to that question?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q I think the Minister was referring to vapes and the evidence based around the impact on growing lungs and hearts. Is there anything you would like to say about that before we move on?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q Clearly, smoking is far more harmful than vaping, but research by UCL has shown that there are DNA methylation changes linked to carcinogens from vaping in the oral cavity, which quite probably translates to the lungs as well. Should we be looking at this legislation not with the naiveté with which smoking was looked at in the past, but rather as taking advance steps to ensure that we do not see an inducement of lung disease in the future?
Steve Tuckwell (Conservative, Uxbridge and South Ruislip)
Could you take us through the impact second-hand smoking has on healthQ ?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Thank you. While the harms of vaping are becoming better understood, what do we know about the behaviours around vaping? I ask as an MP who represents the northern constituency of Copeland, where smoking levels are above the national average, where health inequalities are more prevalent, and where deprivation is also a factor. Are we seeing the same kind of mapping of deprivation in areas where people are starting to vape? Are we aware of copycat behaviour—children mimicking their parents or other people in their households—and are we starting to see some patterns in age groups starting to vape? That statistic—350 young people starting to smoke every day—is shocking. What do we know about vapingQ ?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
We have heardQ that this Bill covers tobacco and vaping, and we have talked quite a bit about the advertising and packaging of vapes. Do you think that we could go further in actually tackling tobacco, which is the biggest killer, around the advertising and packaging of tobacco and flavoured tobacco?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have time for another round of questions, if Members want.
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
Q I am grateful to you both for your comments so far. Would you say more about your thoughts on groups of people, particularly young people —this is a thing you will hear around the table—who are taking up vaping but have not previously smoked. Do the measures in the Bill go as far as you want in trying to prevent that from being the direction of travel?
Angela Richardson (Conservative, Guildford)
You have been quite clear that even though we do not yet have the evidence to understand the impacts of vaping, it is a very important cessation tool. Do you see a world in which it could be prescribed as a cessation tool, as opposed to being available as a retail productQ ?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I am going to take the Minister at this point, and then Preet Kaur Gill.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q Some people say that the smoking generation does not need to be raised a year higher every single year. Can you say for the record what your view is of that? Does it need to keep lifting each year?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
I understand that, but why?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q I want to ask about the information that is given to parents, especially if their children have never smoked but have taken up vaping. We know that a generation of children is becoming addicted to nicotine because products that have been classified as 0% nicotine do actually contain it. One of the parents that I spoke to asked, “Well, how many puffs are there in one vape? If my child has two or three of those in a day, what does that actually mean?” It is about the information on that sort of risk, and how we share that information with parents who are trying to address this issue with their children. Is there anything you want to say about that, and is there any research being done to look at that?
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q I want to follow up on something that both of you alluded to earlier in the evidence you have given. Is there any research beginning to form that suggests that, while vaping can be helpful for cessation, it might also be a gateway to smoking itself for young people?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I call Dr Caroline Johnson, and this will be the final question.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q In the Health Committee, of which I am a member, we heard evidence that some schoolchildren with lung diseases, such as asthma, were not able to visit school toilets during the day because the overwhelming smell of people vaping in there was triggering their asthma. Have you heard anything about that? Do you have any evidence about asthma in children or adults being triggered by vaping?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q Is that an absence of evidence, or does evidence exist but is inconclusive?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I thank the two witnesses for being not only concise, which enabled us to get through all the questions, but informative. I am sure we have benefited from the evidence you have given.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Q The third panel consists of Matthew Shanks, the chair of the Secondary Headteacher Reference Group, and Patrick Roach, general secretary of the NASUWT. We have until 11.10 am for this session. Will the two witnesses state their names and titles for the benefit of the record, please?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will move straight into the questions. Preet Kaur Gill will ask the first question, and then I will move to the Minister for her first question.
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Thank you, Chair, and I thank the witnesses for giving evidence today. First, is under-age smoking or vaping the bigger issue in schools today, and what is the impact on education, behaviour and so on? Secondly, will the measures in the Bill to restrict sales of vaping products to children under 18 work, in your opinion?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q Thank you so much for being here, and also particularly for the work that the NASUWT has done in terms of the impact on schools. Could you expand on that a bit further? I have done a couple of visits ahead of this Bill. I met enforcement officers, for example, who gave me anecdotal evidence that teachers say that pupils will return to the classroom with their eyes spinning and unable to concentrate because of the heady nature of whatever it is they have just been vaping or smoking. There was another anecdote about a school where children decided to drink the vape fluid and the school actually had to have a sort of emergency evacuation as a result of that.
Could you therefore expand on that, in terms of the specific health impacts and, at the one end, the ability of children to concentrate on the class when they are spaced out on vapes, and, at the other end, the very real risk to children from doing something stupid with a vape that was entirely unintended, with disastrous consequences?
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
Q I wonder if you can develop some of the points you have made, which have been very useful. I am hearing anecdotally about issues in schools where the addiction of children to these vapes is itself causing a problem, because the children are unable to sit in the classroom and have to go out to vape, with whatever excuse is made, so that they then feel able to come back to the classroom, such is the level of their addiction to these products. If I may go beyond that slightly, what are your views on the way these things are promoted—for instance, on our particular concern about vape companies advertising on sports strips and in sports stadiums, and the impact on the same young people who are so addicted?
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q I have been hearing from parents and schools in my constituency that they are very concerned that children are going out at lunchtime and spending their lunch money on vapes, so they are not having anything nutritious during the day. Is there any evidence that indicates that there might be a pattern developing in that respect that will have an impact on children’s physical health and wellbeing?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Four more people want to get in—actually, it has just gone up to five—and we have about 12 or 13 minutes left. It is unlikely that I will be able to get everybody in, but if Members put their questions as briefly as possible and witnesses respond as concisely as possible, I will try.
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q There is nothing magical about your 18th birthday, but the legislation clearly talks about 18 being a cut-off age. Would it assist if that age were heightened—for instance, it is 20 in Japan and 21 in California—not least because of the impact of nicotine and cannabis, which have been mentioned? I have been hearing about synthetic drugs as well.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
That is really helpful.
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Q You talked about the escalation whereby young people, possibly as young as 10, start by vaping and then go on to other tobacco substances. What further measures would be required, in your view? What further support would teachers need to explain the harm that young people are doing to themselves as a result of vaping and smoking?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Q Following on from Bob’s question, you are in a position to educate young people about the harms of tobacco. Is there a point here about educating young people about the harms, about the unscrupulous measures that the tobacco industry takes and about the horrific products that it is making? Young people are often interested in climate change and wider issues. These industries and organisations are having an impact across the whole world. It could be something that young people are interested in—not just for their health, but for the wider impact on their local communities and across the world. If we had more funding for education, maybe with a payer levy, those types of measures could be looked at. Is there any opportunity for that type of education in schools?
Angela Richardson (Conservative, Guildford)
Q This morning, in evidence from previous witnesses, we heard a lot about how vaping is a great smoking cessation tool, but there is not enough evidence about the harms of vaping. You have described social harms; you probably see health harms as well. You have surveyed people, and you have come to give evidence this morning. Have you been asked, outside this, for evidence of the harm from vaping to the young people you look after? Do you believe that the evidence gathering on whether vaping is harmful is going at a fast enough pace?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
A very brief final question from Dr Caroline Johnson. We have to finish at 10 past 11, so I ask the witnesses to bear that in mind.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I want to ask about flavourings because we have heard that flavourings may encourage some adults to switch. We know that where adults stop smoking using vapes, flavourings might prolong their addiction to vapes, and we know that flavourings entice children to vape. Some people say that we need to keep the flavours for the adults; some people say no flavours because they entice children. To govern is to choose, so which do you think is the most important—supporting adults to stop smoking or protecting children from starting vaping?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I thank the witnesses for giving us a very particular perspective that we have not previously heard about on how all this impacts on teaching and the education sector in general. We are grateful for that, and I am sure the Committee found it helpful.
Examination of witness
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Q We will now hear evidence from Paul Farmer, who is the chief executive of Age UK. This brief session will last only until 11.25 am, so the time will need to be snappily used. Mr Farmer, this seems unnecessary, but for the record can you simply state your name and title?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Welcome, Paul. It is good to have you here. My first question is simple and straightforward: what is Age UK’s view on the Bill?
My second question is this. I know that over-65s are much less likely to smoke. I have a constituent, Eric, who has suffered from a stroke and has suffered with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and is now a tobacco campaigner in his 80s. Why is this Bill important to the people Age UK works with?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q I really appreciate your being here—thank you. I would like to tackle the fact that young people tend not to consider either their own mortality or their health and wellbeing. The majority of young people tend to take those for granted, and yet there is a complete correlation: the age at which you take up smoking—or, indeed, vaping—is when you are young and feel pretty immortal, or are at least not concerned about later life.
Could you give us a view, as an Age UK representative, of the sort of advice that older people who have smoked all their lives and are now bearing the brunt of the decisions they took would give to those who argue, “It’s a matter of personal choice. Everyone should be free to smoke if they want”? What would an older person say to that young person?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q For the record, can you outline some of those experiences? Obviously this is a public evidence session and we are looking to make the strong case for this Bill.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
My last point: may I just pursue that—
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Very briefly.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q Thank you. Would that older person suffering those consequences say: “Yes, it was all a matter of free choice”?
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
Q Could you explain who “older people” are? Sadly, I recently recognised that that might include more of us than we might like to believe. We need to take that on board. What I am really interested in are the different demographic groups, and where you think there might be disproportionate levels of harm from tobacco and vaping within the groups of older people that you support.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I will attempt one final question from Dr Lisa Cameron. I simply make the point that the briefer the question, the more possibility there is that she will get an answer.
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q Thank you; I will be very brief. Do you think it is fair to describe older adults as having made a choice, when perhaps it was not an informed choice, given the misinformation and lack of evidence at the time that they made the choice to start smoking?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I thank the witness for his answers to the questions from Members, which were really helpful. They gave us not only the perspective of those who his organisation represents, but the intergenerational nature of their role in the world. That brings us to the end of this morning’s sitting. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm here in the Boothroyd room to continue taking oral evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We will now hear from Councillor David Fothergill, deputy chair of the Local Government Association, and Greg Fell, president of the Association of Directors of Public Health. We have until 2.30 pm for this session. I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record—I do not really need opening statements, because we will have plenty of questions for you, but if you want to add a sentence to your introduction, I will not object.
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Effective enforcement will be key to the success of part 1 of the Bill, yet some local authorities tell me that they do not have even a single full-time trading standards officer. The illicit market in vapes is substantial—in Birmingham, 17,000 illicit vapes were removed. Do you think that local authorities have the resource needed to enforce the new measures on age for the sale of tobacco, and the new regulations on vapesQ36 ?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q In what circumstances do you envision that local enforcement would not be enough and the Secretary of State would need to use the powers to intervene granted to her by the Bill? That is in clause 64.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q I appreciate you being here. Can you give me an idea of the LGA’s view of a licensing regime? That is not proposed in the Bill, but some people say that licensing would be a better alternative than the measures we are proposing here.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q You have already said that you do not think the penalties are high enough, but do you think that the enforcement rules as they are, with the proposals to change the packaging, move the location of vapes and so on, will make it easier or harder to enforce? Do you think that enforcement officers will have sufficient time to train and gear up to meet the challenge of the legislation?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
My question is for Greg Fell. The clarity and simplicity of knowing where you can smoke has meant that the universal principle of that bar has largely been applied, but it has not applied to vaping to date. Given that vapes contain not just nicotine but cannabis, Spice and other illicit substances, should the same restrictions be applied to vapingQ ?
Steve Tuckwell (Conservative, Uxbridge and South Ruislip)
The LGA has previously called for strict enforcement measures for those selling tobacco to those under-age. Do you think the Bill goes far enough in achieving thatQ ?
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
I have a question for Mr Fell. Obviously the Bill will cover shisha, so I would welcome your views on shisha smoking and whether there is more we can do within the Bill or in general to tighten up shisha smokingQ .
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
I thank you for covering the issue of age verification; I think it is important to have a similar scheme across the UK. The other issue relating to licensing is that there are potentially two ways of licensing. One is to add to the existing alcohol licensing regime, and the other is to have a separate regime for vaping and tobacco. Which would you prefer to operateQ if we were to introduce a licensing scheme?
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Q What is your view on the limitation of the number of premises that would be allowed to sell tobacco or vaping products?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
This is a question for Greg. It would be useful for the Committee and for people watching to hear your view on the impact of smoking and tobacco on public healthQ .
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
David, do you want to add anything?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Why do you support the complete ban as opposed to raising the age from 18 to 21, as many people often say? I know the Khan review has talked about not getting to a smoke-free future if we did that, but is there anything you would like to say about that?
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
We heard in an evidence session earlier about the challenges in schools, with children vaping in increasing numbers. There is an impact on their education because of their becoming addicted, and that causes challenges in their interactions with the learning process. Do you think that the measures in the Bill are sufficient to deal with that growing problem? Do you have a view on whether we have a handle on the quantum of that problem, and are the measures on advertising sufficient to try to remedy that?Q
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
If I may, Mr Fell, I will bring you back to the issue of passive vaping. You talked about there not being so much evidence on the harms of passive vaping compared with passive smoking, which is correct. Of course, smoking has been around much longer for the effects to be understood. However, there are papers, published in reliable journals such as Q The BMJ, saying that those people—in particular, young adults who do not smoke or vape—who are exposed to passive vaping do get an increase in bronchial symptoms.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q There are effects. One reason why a former Government brought in the ban on smoking in enclosed public spaces was so that people would not be forced to experience such a risk, either at work or socially, which was one that they did not want to take. Would you, as a director of public health, support a ban in enclosed spaces for vaping, too?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q If someone cannot smoke in a pub, why would not being able to vape in a pub make them smoke?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
David, do you want to add anything?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q Again, the question is to Greg Fell. We know that there is a risk around a transition between vaping and smoking. I understand that a paper will soon be published on that in Sweden. A York schools survey has shown that 42% of children think that vaping is as dangerous as smoking and that 17% think that vaping is more harmful than smoking. How are we going to avoid future risk around young people taking up smoking, even if that is in later life? They are young people, obviously, today, but I am talking about young people outside the age group for the year-on-year increase.
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Q One issue that was raised on Second Reading but which is not in the Bill at the moment is the practice, particularly by people originating from the Indian subcontinent, of chewing tobacco, particularly paan, and the fact that it can be bought in any place. There are no regulations on it; there is no control over what the product is or what the contents of the product are. What is the view on bringing some regulation in? It is questionable whether it can be within the scope of this Bill, but clearly that causes throat and mouth cancer in large numbers of people.
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
You do not? I am surprised.
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
That would be helpful.
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
I think we should have one.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q You made a very good case for the age of sale rising each year, but as the LGA, do you think that will be tricky for enforcement purposes? An argument is often made that if you were 40 and I was 41, we would go into a store and I would have to buy your cigarettes for you. What would you say to that as an argument for continuing with the smoke-free generation legislation?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
You don’t look it.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Greg, before I bring Andrea in again, you do not look 67 either. I want to get that on the record.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q I beg people to ask me my age when I am buying a drink, and they just will not.
The additional things—heated tobacco, shisha and so on—that come under this legislation include cigarette papers. We all know that they can be used for rolling joints and other purposes, and that cigarette papers contain carcinogens. However, some have quite a strong desire to exclude them—I do not know why. What is the view of the LGA and ADPH on that point?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We have two minutes left. Is anyone burning to ask the last question? We have had very clear evidence and it has been an excellent session, but is anyone sitting on a question they have not yet asked?
Angela Richardson (Conservative, Guildford)
Yes. Greg, I am picking up from the witnesses and evidence sessions we have had so far that there is almost an ideological feeling about vapes as a smoking cessation tool. You talked about the unintended consequences of people going back to smoking or not giving it up if we were to take a tougher line on vaping or the effects of vaping on others. I am slightly worried from a public health point of view: what if we discover that vaping is dreadful and we have taken the really strong stance of maybe not looking into it enough and giving it the urgency it needsQ ?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you very much, David and Greg, for an excellent session with some very clear evidence.
Examination of Witness
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We now move on to our next witness, Ailsa Rutter, who is the director of Fresh and Balance North East. I am looking forward to find out what that is. We have 20 minutes for this session. Ailsa, could you kindly introduce yourself for the record? By all means, add some more if you wish to, but the Committee will have plenty of questions for you.
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q My first question to you is, what is the impact of tobacco smoking on public health? Secondly, do you think the Bill’s measures to prevent vaping products from being sold to children will be successful? That is essentially clauses 61 and 62.
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q Thank you so much for being here and for all you do in the north-east. It is fantastic.
As you will know, rates of smoking during pregnancy in the north-east are some of the highest in the country. Do you think this legislation will help to reduce those very high numbers? The rate is somewhere in the region of 14% in the north-east.
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Q If there was one thing you could add to this Bill, what would it be?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Thank you, Ailsa, for all the work that you do up north in the north-east. I represent the north-west, Cumbria, which also has higher than national average rates of mothers saying that they are smoking at the point of birth—about 12.3%. I am told by our authority in Cumbria that about 3,500 hospital admissions, 74,000 GP appointments and 80,000 sick days are caused by smoking-related illnesses. But why not just do more of what you are doing in the north-east? Do you really need this Bill to tackle the problem?Q
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Q Thanks to Ailsa for everything that Fresh does in the north-east and for the wonderful results we have seen in the north-east, which is a very deprived area in places. I want to follow up on the question on evidence in vaping. Although there are still a few grey areas and unknowns about vapes, we know that vaping is much less harmful than tobacco. Crucially, it is a really important tool for those people who do smoke. What evidence does Fresh use to back up this argument? Do you feel there is a worry that if we focus too much in the Bill on youth vaping, we will leave behind those dependent, addicted and, very often, deprived smokers?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
It was about the use of vapes by heavily dependent smokers.
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Q In answer to my colleague, Nickie Aiken, you raised the primary issue of age verification. We get an opportunity to change the law on tobacco and vaping only once every 10 years or so, so it is quite important that we get as much in as we can. What other improvements would you like to make to the Bill to strengthen the argument you are putting, to get people to quit smoking or not even start in the first place?
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Q May I prompt you? We have heard from previous witnesses about licensing. The Minister has talked about warning messages in packs and individual cigarette papers. Would you support those measures?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you. There are four minutes left and three people have already caught my eye, so short questions and short answers please, colleagues.
Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)
It is always great to see youQ and your enthusiasm shows through. We are very grateful for what you do in the north-east with Fresh and Balance. Does there need to be some kind of balance—no pun intended—between education and enforcement in order to make this a successful campaign, and to make the Bill as successful as we all want it to be?
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
We heardQ this morning that some individuals and families had misinformation about vaping. We were given the example that, where the flavour is grapefruit or another fruity flavour, people might think that it is actually beneficial for children to be using vapes. Should we tackle those types of flavours and do more in terms of education, to make sure that families are aware that just because something has a fruity flavour, that does not necessarily mean that it is good for their health?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Order. I am sorry, but we have hit 2.50 pm. Caroline, I am sorry to you, too. We are not allowed to go over the time limit. Ailsa, thank you so much for your evidence; it has been absolutely first-class. We wish you well with all the important work.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We now turn to our next witness, Adrian Simpson, a policy adviser at the British Retail Consortium. Colleagues, we have until 3.10 pm for this session, which is 20 minutes—it flies by when the witnesses are so good. Caroline, you can have the first question after Preet if that would help you. Witness, would you please introduce yourself and say an additional sentence, and then we will throw lots of questions at you?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Hello Adrian. I know that ASH has done some surveys that show that the majority of small retailers are in support of age-of-sale legislation, and I know that the Association of Convenience Stores is equally supportive. Would you say that the retailers are broadly supportive of this Bill?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q As you know, as well as introducing the £100 fixed penalty notice, the Bill grants new powers to trading standards to make restricted premises orders and restricted sale orders. Do you think that those new powers get the balance right between providing an effective deterrent and proportionality, and do you think that, at £100, the spot fines are set at the right level?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Is there anything you want to say on the age-of-sale verification process?
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I want to ask you about the licensing regime. You have to have a licence to sell alcohol and tobacco, and some have suggested that you should have to have a licence to sell nicotine full stop because it is an addictive substance. That would mean that you would need to have a licence to sell vapes, partly as a way of making them less accessible to children in the places that they may be sold. Would you support that?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q Thank you so much for being here. You will be aware that, in putting together legislation, huge effort is made to be balanced and not excessive and to make it doable and achievable, nowhere more so than for those who are trying to enforce it.
May I press you a bit further on the point that Preet made about whether the fines are sufficient? You have said that it is a bit complicated and will require some lead-in time—which is obviously provided, with the 2027 date—to give appropriate training to shop staff. The quantum of the fine was intended to enable on-the-spot fines, rather than having lengthy litigation because the person who incurs the fine does not have the cash and needs to go away, may or may not pay it, may or may not have to be pursued, may or may not have to go to court, and so on. Understanding that there are different views on all sides, is the balance just about right or, if you could have put your own wish list together, are there things that you would have done differently?
Steve Tuckwell (Conservative, Uxbridge and South Ruislip)
Q Thank you for coming in this afternoon. It is a pleasure to hear your thoughts. What will be the challenges for retailers in enforcing the ban on sales?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q What conversations has the British Retail Consortium had with local authorities? They have a lot of data locally on the amount of illicit vapes or illicit tobacco being sold. They are already enforcing trading standards, so there should already be a level of awareness. What kinds of conversations have you been having with local authorities?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q You mentioned that your members are used to working with Challenge 25. Do you see the Bill working in the same way? As the age of the smoke-free generation rises from year to year, will your colleagues in the retail sector manage to look at two different customers and ask the one that they are concerned about to verify their age?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q You will have heard Mr Fothergill from the LGA saying that he has to show his bus pass every time he wants free transport. Do you feel that that is where the solution lies?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q May I just clarify, then, that your members support the uplift in age, year on year? As you will no doubt be aware, there are some who challenge that and say, “Well, it shouldn’t keep escalating,” but the British Retail Consortium does support the idea of the increase, year on year, of the smoke-free generation, as so many of our other expert witnesses have done today. Would that be right? I do not want to put words in your mouth.
Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)
Q I was just searching for a quote, which I think I cited in a debate last year, about a survey that had been commissioned about buying vapes. Out of the 28 vapes that were bought, 25 were illicit vapes. I presume that those are from places that are not responsible retailers—they clearly are irresponsible if they sell those. Are there a lot of retailers that do not subscribe to your organisation where this sort of thing could be occurring? If that is the case, how can we encourage them to become responsible retailers and join the consortium? What should be done? Do you try to reach out to retailers that you know are perhaps not the best and that you would like to see engage with your organisation to help to prevent this kind of illicit sale?
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q Do any of your members worry that they might get into some bother if they think that someone looks a bit older than they are, and they do not ask them for identification? I am just wondering what sort of training would be beneficial, because you mentioned that you were looking to put in place training prior to this going through.
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q But it is probably more difficult to tell whether someone is 35, 40 or 45 than whether someone is an older adult, going on a bus, or whether someone is a teenager rather than someone in their mid-20s. I am just wondering how that could work, in a sense, in terms of the training.
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
Q To follow on from that dialogue, it strikes me that a degree of social change will be needed, because it will have to become normal for you to go into a shop and provide whatever kind of ID. It seems to me unlikely that that will be a conversation that will centre on whether you look this age or a year older. Has that led you to any conversations with people who deal with things like bus passes or the voter ID that is required? Is the communication of that to the public—a different angle from the communication to the retail staff—something that you are working on?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Adrian, thank you so much for your evidence this afternoon. It has been clear and concise.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We will now move on to our next session—I am speaking slowly to allow John and Kate to find their way to their places.
To colleagues and anyone else tuning in, we are likely to have votes in the Chamber from about 3.30 pm or 3.45 pm—we are not quite sure; it is always fluid. That might do two things. It could curtail this session and prevent us from having the later sessions. Colleagues, in this session, in which we will hear extremely important evidence from the Chartered Trading Standards Institute, we might want to be concise for the first 20 minutes in case that dreadful bell goes and we all have to scarper. We will be voting four or five times and therefore not coming back. Let us get what we can from our two excellent witnesses.
Examination of Witnesses
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
John Herriman and Kate Pike, will you introduce yourselves, please?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Can you talk a little bit about your work on illicit vapes and tobacco, and talk us through how trading standards works and how you share information between the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, Border Force and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs? One thing that I am concerned about in Birmingham, for example, is the fact that 17,000 illicit vapes were removed by trading standards. The notification process sits with MHRA. Is there triangulation in the feeding back of that information, so that products can be removed? Can you say something about that?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q The Bill will ban the sale, rather than the import, of illicit vape products. Is that the right approach?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
John, did you want to say anything?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Finally from me, in your response to the Government’s “Creating a smokefree generation” consultation, you called for a fixed penalty notice of £200 and maybe the option of increasing that. Do you think that the fines and the monetary penalties in the Bill are appropriate?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q It is great to see you—thanks for coming today. I think you are saying that at the moment the fine is set at the right level. It is a really important issue: by no means do we want it to appear to be a cost of doing business. Our previous witness was suggesting that for some shop workers it is a very significant sum and is quite problematic for them, so perhaps there should be training in the first instance.
We have sought to get the right balance, with a £100 fine that can be reduced to £50 if it is paid on the spot. For any of us, a day when we have to dish out £50 because we have done something wrong is a significant bad day. On the other hand, there is an escalation process to criminal prosecution. I am really keen that we get the balance right up front, notwithstanding that there will be powers to change it. Can I press you a bit further: is this or is this not the right place to start?
Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)
Q It is clear to me, having done a visit with enforcement officers, that some so-called specialist vape shops and some newsagents just have the vapes next to the sweets. It is a free-for-all: you get your bubble gum and your vape there. Is that problematic? Will this legislation mean that enforcement officers shut them down? Will there be enough powers and resources to ensure that this can no longer happen?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q My big concern is the illicit trade around vapes. What further measures would be helpful in the legislation to enable you to do your job? Vapes are clearly a delivery mechanism. We have particularly focused on lung health; I am more concerned about the use of vapes for synthetic drugs, which are available in my community and, I am sure, elsewhere. What more can be done to ensure that we do not see the growth of illicit vapes on our street corners or in our shops?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q But a vape product looks like a vape product, in all its various kinds. That is really what I am getting at.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Colleagues, we might be voting fairly soon, so short questions, please, and concise answers.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q My question follows on from that of my colleague. Lincolnshire police measured what was in vapes confiscated from children in my constituency. They found chemicals like diethylene glycol diacetate, antifreeze, Steol-M, poster varnish and others. As I understand it, when they look at a vape in a box, one of the challenges for enforcers is being able to tell whether it is a real, legitimate vape that contains what it is supposed to contain or a fake vape that contains a whole load of nonsense and potentially harmful chemicals. How could the legislation help you with that?
Secondly, someone showed me on packets of cigarettes recently that there is a scannable code, and trading standards have a special scanner that they can scan that with. Would that sort of thing help on so-called legitimate vapes?
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
Q I do not know if others have had this experience, but I am aware that I am increasingly being advertised at online by products that, although I am not really sure what they are, are certainly connected or proximate to tobacco or vapes. That leads me to wonder whether there are any tobacco, vaping or other connected or related products that are not covered by this Bill, which you think perhaps should be.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q You are both very effectively articulating the complexity of your programme of work within trading standards, but 2027 seems like a terribly long timeframe. Given what we know about nicotine addiction and the outcomes, is it the right timeframe, and what will you need to be doing in that timeframe to achieve the deadline?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q You mentioned that trading standards has faced huge amounts of cuts, with many telling us that in some places there is not even a single trading standards officer. The enabling regulation and the powers within that will be really important, especially when making it clear what trading standards officers must look for when they go into a shop, how vapes are being marketed, and so on. The Government have already consulted on that. Do you think the Government should release that information now, so that they can work with you and do the preparatory work? What kind of timescales do you think there should be? We heard today from ASH that there is some evidence—for example, from Canada—around descriptors that we could already put in the Bill, or that we could implement immediately—why should we wait? Would it have been helpful to have some of that consultation around the enabling regulations already there?
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Q You probably heard the previous witnesses giving their views about a licensing scheme. From your members’ perspective, would that make the issue of where tobacco and vaping products can be sold more enforceable? You made a comment in relation to other tobacco products. I have raised the issue of chewing tobacco and paan, in particular, which does not come within the scope here but has no enforcement from Trading Standards at all. Do you see that happening in the future?
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Q And the attitude to paan and chewing tobacco?
Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)
Thank you.
Lisa Cameron (Conservative, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q This question is for John. You stated in the response to the Bill that enforcing the new age restriction will present its own challenges. What challenges do you foresee? Will the sector be penalised if it cannot tell the difference between a 35-year-old and a 40-year-old? How do you manage those intricacies?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
I think we have received that message very loud and very clear.
Steve Tuckwell (Conservative, Uxbridge and South Ruislip)
Q You may have touched on this in some of your previous answers, but are there any tobacco and vaping products that are not covered by the Bill but which you think should be?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q To come back to your answer about the track and trace that you have for tobacco, have you had any conversations with Border Force and the MHRA about perhaps doing this for vapes? As you said at the beginning, you did not imagine that the industry would grow in the way it actually has around illicit and illegal vapes.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Q There are no more questions around the table, so thank you to John and to Kate for your excellent and very clear evidence, and thank you for coming to see us.
Examination of Witness
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Colleagues, we have at least 10 minutes left—perhaps 10 or 15 minutes. We are now, by the science and wonder of technology, zooming up to Dundee, I think. We welcome Laura Young from the Centre for Water Law, Policy and Science at the University of Dundee, via Zoom. I am going to ask you to introduce yourself in a moment, Laura, and I will just say that when Division bells start ringing in about 10 or 15 minutes, we will all be dashing off. It will be nothing you have done wrong or something you have said that we don’t like; it is nothing at all like that. Laura, over to you, please.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you very much. You will hear first from your own Member of Parliament, Kirsten Oswald, who will ask the first question.
Kirsten Oswald (Scottish National Party, East Renfrewshire)
Q I have kept you as a constituent, Laura, despite your being away studying. I know that you will have handled conversations probably significantly better than the rest of us on the prevalence of vapes in all our communities, particularly in areas near schools and the coast, where they can lead to plastic pollution. Can you tell us what change you have seen over the last couple of years in terms of the numbers and explain why that is problematic to the environment ?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q Would you like to say a little more around how tobacco and vaping products impact the environment? There was an opportunity for the Government to do a lot more on cigarette butts. Do you want to say anything about that?
Preet Kaur Gill (Labour/Co-operative, Birmingham, Edgbaston)
Q What impact do you think the Bill will have on improving the environmental outcomes?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q You have expertly explained the concerns around plastic pollution from vapes, but what do we know so far about the impacts on nature and biodiversity from cigarette butts? Also, are you aware of any concerns about the air pollution risks on biodiversity from cigarettes?
Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)
Q The concerns about the environment are important, but the other issue about banning the use is that it sends out a message that vapes may not be safe. I know a lot of vaping companies are trying their best to see how vapes can be disposed of safely. They have these new vapes where they are disposable, but they are not single use. Do you think there could be any alternative to a ban? Do you think a ban might deter people from giving up smoking because they think that because vapes are banned, they are not good for you? It is a complicated discussion to have about what should be done. Do you want to comment on some of the things I have said?
Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)
I would just like to say that vaping is 95% safer than smoking.
Caroline Johnson (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)
Q I proposed a ten-minute rule Bill to ban disposable vapes last February, so I am delighted to see that the Government have brought in an statutory instrument to do exactly that. I am disappointed, but not surprised, to hear you say that industry is doing its best to circumnavigate the regulations before they are even brought in.
I have two questions. First, how do we ensure that the regulations are flexible enough for us to be able to stay ahead of such measures? Secondly, could you say a bit about the effect on wildlife? My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson) has talked about puppies picking these things up in their mouths and the danger they can pose if the puppies bite into them. Could you talk a bit more about the danger that they pose to wildlife when they are thrown away?
Mary Foy (Labour, City of Durham)
Q Just a very quick question: would you agree that this is symptomatic of the throwaway society that we live in? We have disposable vapes, plastic toys with happy meals and toasters—all small appliances that do not last long enough. They are all thrown away and are damaging the environment. I know that, in Durham, all sorts of electronic devices are thrown in the river, and that is interfering with wildlife.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
It is a fair question; it is not within scope of the Bill, but it is a fair question.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Laura, thank you so much for your evidence this afternoon. There are no more questions—we are about to zoom off and vote right now—but you have brought the subject to life with your very colourful descriptions. Thank you so much for that.
Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)
We apologise to the remaining witnesses, who we will try to squeeze in tomorrow.