Criminal Justice Bill
Public Bill Committee, 14 December 2023.
(Morning)
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Good morning, everybody. We will start with the Opposition for the first five minutes, then go to the Ministers and then open questions up to others. Anybody not on the Front Bench who wants to ask a question, please signify—send up a rocket.
Examination of Witness
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
We start with Nick Smart, acting president of the Police Superintendents’ Association of England and Wales. Did you put in written evidence?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Okay. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Thank you for your time and expertise this morning. They are much appreciated.Q
The nuisance rough sleeping provisions in clauses 51 to 62 are likely to have an impact on police officers and the work that they have to do. Does the association have a view on that, and on its resourcing implications?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Do you have concerns that this will be one of those multifactorial societal problems that ends up with an enforcement-type approach, where we ask you to police our way out of what are deeper social challenges?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Do you have a view on the desirability of the provisions relating to the police, particularly clauses 73 and 74 on ethical policing and appeals to police appeals tribunals? Would you add anything to them?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Finally, you may have seen from the evidence we took on Tuesday that there is quite a lot of interest in vetting. I think we came out with more solutions, in different ways, than we had perhaps anticipated. Where do you sit on what is an appropriate vetting regime that is practical and that gives confidence to the public about the people who are protecting us?Q
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Can I pick up on the issues around police conduct? Clauses 73 and 74 create both a right and a duty on chief constables: a duty to oversee the duty of candour and the relevant code that will ensure it, and a right to submit an appeal of their own device. Is that consistent with feedback that you have heard from chief constables about how they could better manage their subordinates?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
In terms of the two things. Do you think that that is the range of tools that they need in order to better manage?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q There are some new powers in the Bill. The power relating to the seizure of bladed articles is consistent with powers that already exist, but is an expansion of them; there just needs to be a reasonable belief that the bladed article may be used in the commitment of a further crime. What is your view on that?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q In the past, have you heard that officers have had a reasonable suspicion but have found that they lacked the requisite power to act?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Right next to that in the Bill is clause 19, which relates to the power to enter premises without a warrant. Police can enter without a warrant when there is a reasonable suspicion that stolen goods are on the premises. Can you comment on that?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Do you have confidence that the threshold test of reasonable belief would be uniformly applied across police forces?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Finally, the new package of measures in clauses 65 to 71, which deal with antisocial behaviour, is an expansion of existing powers in the 2014 legislation, such as enabling the police to put in place a public safety protection order. What impact do you think that will have on the police’s ability to respond to antisocial behaviour?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q What about bringing the age limit down to bring in children of 10, up to adulthood?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
I would like to go back to the issue of knife crime, which I am particularly interested in. You mentioned clause 18, but are there any other measures Q in the Bill that will help to tackle knife crime? There was a recent national police initiative to tackle knife crime. Could you tell us how that went?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q Absolutely. And how did the operation go?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q That is fine. You said that the measures in the Bill are welcome. Are there any other measures that you would have liked to see in it that would help to tackle knife crime? I realise that it needs a holistic approach and that you need to work with others, but we can only give you the powers.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
We have plenty of time, so I would like to read you a quote. In the first evidence session on Tuesday, I asked Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales, what we could build on in the Bill. She said:Q
“Police-perpetrated domestic abuse related issues—and that means three key things to me. One is being more proactive about removing warrant cards if someone is under investigation for crimes relating to violence against women and girls or domestic abuse. The second is the specified offences that I believe should be listed that would constitute gross misconduct; again, I think they should be defined as domestic abuse, sexual harassment, assault and violence, so-called honour-based abuse, and stalking. The third is stronger provisions in relation to police vetting—requiring that every five years, and ensuring that if there is a change in force, police vetting takes place. Tightening up those provisions is not currently in the Bill and I think it should be.”––[Official Report, Criminal Justice Public Bill Committee, 12 December 2023; c. 24, Q55.]
Do you agree?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is helpful. Is there anything that the Bill Committee can do to improve this piece of legislation to assist police forces across the country in dealing with such issues?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
That is helpful, thank you.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Q We have a minute or two left. Do you want to share with the Committee anything you have not been asked about, but think would be helpful?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Can I ask you a follow-up question? If you remove the need for a warrant, do you not think that it is important to have some form of safeguard before the door is opened?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q But even in that 1%, would it not have a corrosive effect on public trust if an officer took the decision and then would not have been authorised?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
That is really helpful. Thank you very much, Mr Smart.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Thank you for your evidence. If there is anything you would like to add or that you feel you have missed when you go back on the tube, you can always write to the Clerk.
Examination of Witnesses
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
We welcome the three witnesses: Councillor Sue Woolley, Conservative lead at the Local Government Association and Safer and Stronger Communities; Emily Spurrell, a Police and Crime Commissioner and justice portfolio lead; and David Lloyd, a PCC and criminal justice portfolio lead. Can you start by introducing yourselves, please? We will start with David.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you for your time and the distances that you have come to be with us today; it is really valuable to us in our consideration. I will start where you finished, Commissioner Spurrell, on partnership. Can you give me your reflections on community safety partnerships and your experience of them? We can go from left to right as I look at the panel.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you for all those answers. I want to pick up on that final point. Clause 72 gives PCCs the ability to essentially say to the CSP, “This is what you should be prioritising,” and the CSP has to take that on board and, if it is not acceptable, come back in a formal process to say why not. I am not sure whether that is needed. You have talked about culture, mutual trust and realising that local government tackles the same problems as policing. Is the power necessary? As PCCs, is it one that you would expect to exercise? From a local government point of view, Councillor Woolley, would you be impressed if your PCC or Mayor was to exercise it with you?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Should that perhaps cut both ways? As you say, the PCC has a democratic mandate. The local authority does as well. It is elected differently, but it is still drawn from the people—of the people. Are you not concerned that it creates a power imbalance, where the PCC can make that mandate, but the other partners cannot?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Mr Lloyd, I want to go back to what you were saying at the beginning about your role in relation to the police—in standing up for victims. With the new powers that are extended to chief constables, and particularly the new duty of candour, how do you see the role of PCCs in ensuring that is effective?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I want to pick up on the repeal of the Vagrancy Act again. It is an ambition of this Bill to fill the gap that would otherwise be left by that Act, by addressing the nuisance element that may exist within those matters. Does this Bill provide a helpful tool for filling the gap that would otherwise be left by the repeal of the Vagrancy Act?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q To pin you down a bit more—please, any of you jump in—do you think there is a distinction between nuisance begging and nuisance rough sleeping? They are treated differently in the Act, but it sounds as if you are driving at two different things
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Councillor Woolley, given your role, do you have a view on that?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Thank you. That is very helpful. My final question is for Ms Spurrell—I have not asked her anything yet—and is about antisocial behaviour and the new power for a victim who is dissatisfied with the response to ask their local PCC to conduct a review. In the context of the work that you have done and how frequently antisocial behaviour occurs and how it is not always easy to tackle, how do you see that part of your role unfolding? Do you think it would be useful?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Do you think it is a meaningful enhancement of victims’ rights?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Thank you. That is all from me.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Q Do either of the Opposition spokesmen want to come back? No. Can each witness give me a couple of minutes on something you have not been asked about that you think ought to be in the Bill, or something you think is good in the Bill? Let us start with you, David.
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q I recognise that you are strategic rather than operational, all three of you. However, as you may have heard in the previous session, I am particularly interested in knife crime, as I am sure all of you are, as well. Are you content that the provisions in the Bill and the powers that they confer will make a difference in tackling knife crime? Is there anything else that you would have liked to have seen in the Bill to assist you in representing—well, in the case of the PCC, the people who elect you, and of course you, Sue, although I am sure that all of you are equally concerned about knife crime?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q Sue, you mentioned trading standards. Are you saying that you do not think they do have the powers? As a constituency MP, I have reported to the police the sale of these knives. They have then got trading standards involved, and trading standards went and seized vanloads of this stuff.
Andrew Jones (Conservative, Harrogate and Knaresborough)
May I pick up on a point that you made earlier, Councillor Woolley? It was about rough sleeping. You mentioned that this is often about dealing with people with very complex issues; often, having access to addiction services is critical, and progress is made by different agencies working together. I agree very strongly about how making progress and helping those on our streets is most important. Do the provisions in this Bill help or hinder that workQ ?
Andrew Jones (Conservative, Harrogate and Knaresborough)
Thank you.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Thank you very much, all three of you, for giving evidence to the Committee. I am sure that the Committee will find it useful when we go into line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill.
Examination of Witness
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
We now welcome Mark Fairhurst. Would you like to introduce yourself to start with?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Good afternoon, Mark. Thank you for giving up your time for us this afternoon. The stresses and strains within our prisons are well documented. Recent legislation has added to them with an increased demand for prison places. For the record, could you outline what is happening in our prison system that has led to the Government coming forward with the proposal to send prisoners abroad?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Did the Government consult the POA about their proposal? If they did, what was your response?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q The Government have put forward proposals on how we treat short sentences, and the presumption against short sentences, which I personally think is quite positive. How do you envisage that this proposal to send prisoners abroad would actually work? What issues will arise from that?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q I meant specifically sending British prisoners to see their sentence out in a foreign prison.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q You mentioned that sentencing could be part of the solution to the problem. I am struggling to think of alternative ideas to reduce the demand on our prison system. Perhaps the Government are right to send prisoners abroad if they can rent space.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q You just answered my next question. We cannot expand community provision if we do not have support in the community for defendants. What do you think will be the likely impact of the scheme on your members?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Everybody around the table will recognise the tremendous work that prison officers do, and the increase in stresses and strains that they are facing. We need to be able to deal with violence against prison officers as well. Your members play an important role in through-the-gate services, helping prisoners prepare for release. How does the scheme impact that? I think the idea is that the Government would bring prisoners back before final release, but does that work?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Thank you. I have one final question on a different subject. A provision in clause 22 of the Bill compels defendants to appear in court for sentencing. How does that affect your staff? You will not necessarily be transporting defendants, but in some cases you will be.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Thank you very much.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Can I pick up on that final point about getting defendants into the dock for sentencing? I am sure you are aware that the discretion as to whether that order will be made will sit with the judge, so there will be an assessment of the defendant’s conduct. If the judge deems that it is appropriate to bring the defendant into the dock, the parameters for the use of force will be a decision that remains with the prison authorities. Do you think that is the right approach?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I think that is under consideration, actually. I do not know whether you have experience of this, but I wanted to ask you about the fact that, certainly in the public perception, there have been a spate of cases—very serious cases, actually; you could probably go through the half dozen most high-profile offences of the last one or two years—where it seems that almost every defendant has declined to attend their sentencing hearing. Among the people you represent, is there a perception that that has now become something of a trend? Sorry, there is probably a better word than “trend”—has it become something of a prevailing behaviour?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Thank you; that is very helpful.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Q Mr Fairhurst, I asked our other witnesses if they wanted to volunteer any further information to the Committee that they had not been asked about. Are there any other points you would like to make to the Committee, while you are online, about how the Bill could be improved or any concerns you have?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
That is in the Sentencing Bill.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Thank you very much for your contribution, and have a good day.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Good afternoon. We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. We will now hear oral evidence from Kennedy Talbot KC, barrister at 33 Chancery Lane. For this panel, we have until 2.20 pm.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Sir Graham, I was hoping I might declare an interest at this stage. I am a member of USDAW—the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers—as is my wife, and the Committee has a witness from USDAW coming later.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Thank you very much; that is all recorded. Mr Talbot, may I ask you to introduce yourself?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Excellent. Thank you very much. We will start with shadow Minister Alex Norris.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q43 Thank you, Mr Talbot, for your time and expertise today. Given your admirable record in the proceeds of crime field, I am hoping that you might set out for the Committee what you think of proceeds of crime arrangements at the moment, and then, with particular reference to what is in clause 32, which is an attempt to more tightly define the purpose of confiscation under those arrangements, reflect on your view on that as well.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q What do you think about the clause 32 provision to try to tighten up the definition? Will that help to give clarity to the courts about what we are seeking with this legislation?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q You said two amendments. That was one.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I wanted to ask about the various forms of suspended account and suspended account schemes, which appear in schedule 5 to the Act to complement the confiscation provisions. Will you comment on them? Is that different from what you have currently? I am not an expert in this area.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q As a barrister, what do you think the kind of practical benefits of the confiscation measures will be?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
In the Bill.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Can you give me an idea of what those incentives might look like?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Do any other Members have questions for this witness? No. In that case, thank you very much, Mr Talbot, for your time and for assisting the Committee in the way you have.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We will now hear oral evidence from Paddy Lillis, general secretary of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers; Paul Gerrard, campaigns, public affairs and board secretariat director for the Co-op Group; and Helen Dickinson OBE, chief executive of the British Retail Consortium. We have until 3.05 pm for this panel. Please could you all introduce yourselves for the record?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q The panel will not be surprised to hear that I want to ask you questions about violence and abuse against retail workers and retail crime. The Bill does not have very much—or is silent—on the matter. Could you tell us about the scale of the challenge at the moment within your industry?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Paddy Lillis talked about the stand-alone offence in Scotland. You were a prominent campaigner for that. What assessment have you made of that, since its inception?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q It is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I have spoken with those on the witness panel quite a lot recently. For transparency’s sake, Paul and I have probably had five or maybe even 10 meetings in the last six months. Paddy, Helen and I met just yesterday to discuss this topic, together with the Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake).
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Exactly, a dry run. I will just make it clear at the start that we in Government and policing take this recent rise in shoplifting very seriously, as you know. It is my view that we should have a zero-tolerance approach to this offence. It is causing £1 billion of stock a year to be lost, and there are unacceptable levels of assaults against retail workers. I just want to put on record our unequivocal commitment to taking a zero-tolerance approach to this.
You referenced the retail crime action plan. Paul, you just said that you thought that the stand-alone offence in Scotland got increased attention from the police. In law, assaulting a retail worker is illegal, and since the passage of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, if the victim is a public-facing worker, that is statutorily an aggravating factor. You pointed to police attention as a benefit of introducing a separate offence. Just a couple of months ago, we all, except maybe Paddy, sat together at No. 10 Downing Street to launch the retail crime action plan. Do you agree that the commitments made in that plan, if operationalised—my expectation is that it will be, but we have to ensure that police do operationalise it—will deliver what you need, which is the police dealing with this comprehensively?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q On that point, do you think that Parliament sent a signal by making it a statutory aggravating factor if the victim was a public-facing worker? That includes retail workers. Do you feel that was helpful in signalling to retail workers, but also criminals and the wider public, that assault is not acceptable, and we take it very seriously?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Yes, okay; I understand your point of view. On your point about the police not attending 80% of cases, I think you said, in which your security staff have detained an offender, that is completely unacceptable. You would presumably welcome the commitment in the retail crime action plan to police always attending if an offender has been detained on the scene, if attendance is necessary to secure evidence, or if a retail worker has been assaulted. Those are important commitments, are they not?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q I understand the messaging point, but it would be no quicker to prosecute a stand-alone offence than common assault, actual bodily harm or grievous bodily harm. The process would be the same in all cases.
Paddy, perhaps I could turn to you to follow up on that point about tools. We discussed that a little yesterday, in our retail crime steering group meeting. One of the tools that both retailers and the police have at their disposal for identifying, arresting, and prosecuting offenders, and ultimately sending them to prison, is facial recognition. They can use it retrospectively, to catch offenders, and live, to identify prolific offenders who wander into a store. Do you want to share your views on the potential that that technology has to protect retail workers, and retail stores?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. On the point about data, we are looking at that separately from legislation. I accept that we need the data, as you say, Paddy.
Helen, we talked about the new commitment in the retail crime action plan on the police to always attend in the circumstances that I mentioned, in order to address the issues that Paul quite rightly pointed to. For the Committee’s benefit, can you talk a bit about the way that we—the Government, policing and the retail community, particularly the British Retail Consortium—can work together to make sure that the commitments in the action plan are delivered in practice?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you, Helen. We will certainly do that. We want a zero-tolerance approach, so that there is not an escalation, as there has been in America, caused or enabled by ultra-liberal policing policies. We want zero tolerance, and we will definitely work with you and the retail sector to ensure that the action plan is delivered, including by ensuring that the police can produce the right data. Thank you for your help in the meantime.
I have just one more question. On the issue of the stand-alone offence, which has come up again and again, we have talked about the data point, and there may be other ways of addressing it. One question that will come up as we debate this issue is that if we create a separate offence for retail workers—we already have a separate offence for assaulting emergency workers, of course—what do we say when the teaching unions say, “Can we have a separate offence of assaulting a teacher?”, the transport unions say, “Can we please have a separate offence of assaulting a bus or tube driver?”, or someone says, “Can we have a separate offence of assaulting someone under the age of 18?” A lot of groups have claims that are just as valid and strong as yours. Will we end up with 50 stand-alone offences—for teachers, bus drivers, train drivers and so on?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q We have done this already in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. As I said earlier, we have made it a statutory aggravating factor if the victim of an assault is a public-facing worker, and that of course includes retail workers. Do you accept that that is special enhanced protection, because your sentence will be longer if you assault a retail worker?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
I will certainly continue to work with you all, regardless of the details in the Bill, to get the retail crime action plan fully implemented and bring into force a zero-tolerance approach. I think we all agree that that is necessary, and I will do everything possible to ensure that the police deliver that operationally. Thank you for your work in this area, and I look forward to keeping on working with you.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q One of our witnesses on Tuesday—it has completely escaped my mind which one—said it was very important that retailers did their part of the job too in ensuring that shops were safe environments to work in and not easy to steal from. I want to give Helen and Paul in particular the right to reply on that, because I thought you might want to.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
I am interested in the answer that Helen gave to the Minister about why retail workers should be a special case. I wonder if you would speak a little more about that. My understanding is that attacks on teachers, doctors, leisure staff, pub staff or whatever have not increased in particular in recent times, whereas we have seen this tremendous surge not only in organised crime in shops, but in assaults on retail workers.Q
The reason why the Government—rightly—responded to proposed changes for emergency workers was that we had seen a huge increase in activity: attacks on vehicles, on people, and everything else associated with that. Helen, would you like to talk a little bit more about that, and just clarify that it is also your understanding that it has soared in the retail sector, whereas some of the other categories that the Minister referred to have, in fact, remained relatively static?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q I think you have—I am quite content with that.
Paul, in your earlier evidence, you talked about the difference that you believe the change has made in Scotland. I think you said that there was a 60% arrest rate. I think it is probably in single figures south of the border. How much of that do you think is due to the law change, and how much is maybe a change in police policy, or the fact that police numbers have increased a little in Scotland?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Even in England, we saw a huge cut in the number of police officers across the country since 2010. At least we are getting back to a point now where we actually have more police officers again. Do you think that is actually going to make a difference, and might it lead to more activity in shops—the retail world—than it might have done otherwise?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
That is helpful, thank you.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Are there any other questions?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Only to put on record that we actually have record police numbers now. It is not getting back towards the peak; the peak has been exceeded by about 3,500—
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
You do not have to give evidence!
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
That is on the record. In that case, I thank the witnesses for their time and for their very open and full answers.
Examination of Witness
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Clare Wade KC, the independent reviewer of domestic homicide sentencing. We have until 3.25 pm for this panel. Can you introduce yourself for the record, please?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Good afternoon, Clare. Thank you for being here today to give evidence, and for the tremendous work you do in this particular space. We have heard your name crop up time and again because of the work you have done, so we do appreciate that. We have seen a few changes to legislation in relation to the sentencing of those responsible for domestic homicide. How does the Bill do more in that space?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is very helpful. In our evidence on Tuesday, Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, spoke of your report. She welcomed the measures that were included in the Bill, but she went on to say that she lamented those recommendations that had been excluded and believed that your package of recommendations should have been taken as a whole. What do you think the Committee needs to add to the Bill to fully recognise the importance of your work and get this right?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is pretty comprehensive. Can I ask you about clauses 23 and 24 and the aggravating factors in relation to grooming and the end of a relationship? Do those clauses go far enough?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Clause 30 addresses assessing and managing the risks posed by the coercive behaviour of offenders. It refers to an “intimate or family relationship”. Do you think the wording of that clause is clear enough? We were just talking about clarity around grooming, and I agree with you there. Is the wording of clause 30 and the reference to “intimate or family relationship” too wide? Or do you think it is okay?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q I am particularly interested in the “intimate relationship”, because that can take many different forms.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Fair enough.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is helpful; thank you. This is perhaps not your bag, but clauses 11 and 12 address the offence of encouraging and assisting serious self-harm by a victim. Would you hazard a comment on whether those clauses are fit for purpose?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Alex, I will let the Minister ask some questions for now, but there may be a moment to come back to you afterwards.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Okay, fair enough.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I just want to say that I thought that your review was absolutely excellent, and it has contributed in a really profound way to the way we talk about these issues in Government. Following the passage of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, it has been probably the most critical piece of work that has been produced for the benefit of Ministers. I reread it before you came, and I was just so impressed by how comprehensive and detailed it was.
We all know that you are, of course, supportive of the clause 24 provision, which mirrors what you recommended, but I wanted to ask you about some of the things that you have just said. You said in your report that you found that coercive control underpins all domestic abuse. I think that you also made reference to the fact that there is now a consultation happening on minimum sentences in two regards. The first is in relation to whether any killing—any domestic homicide, to use your language—where there has been coercive control should attract a minimum sentence. I think that that goes a bit wider than anything that you put in your review. I will ask you about that first, and then I will go on to the second part.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Please correct me if I am wrong, but am I right in saying that that was a response to the Ben Kinsella case in 2008?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I worked a bit with Carole Gould; I think that you referred to her when you gave the example of her daughter’s case. Would you also agree that, in a way, it served to obfuscate what we would wish to say about some of these killings, because it creates this artificial distinction with what I think are more like gang-related crimes?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I will not use up all the time. I could ask you a lot of questions, but I will ask you a couple on what you were saying about strangulation. You will recall that one area of your report, your conclusions at paragraphs 8.2 and 8.3, was about the “rough sex” manslaughter issue. You looked at more than 100 cases relevant to that, and you were dealing with the starting point. There were two issues really. There was the culpability categorisation that the judge had found in those cases. Am I right in saying that you thought a starting point was appropriate for cases of that nature?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q It is automatically high risk, and it is not understood that way by judges.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I want to ask you one final question. The Ministry of Justice has written to the Sentencing Council about the culpability issue we have just been discussing. The Sentencing Council’s reply was that these cases should always be viewed as high culpability, but we know that they are not always. Are you able to comment on that? I would say that it is a source of tension at the moment.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q There are a number where they are viewed in the category below: category C.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Especially as the victim cannot give evidence.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q I was grateful that you were able to comment on the issues around self-harm. The Bill also covers policing. Do you have a view on the way the Bill treats police-perpetrated domestic abuse issues, the specified offences in relation to gross misconduct, and the requirement of vetting? It may not be your bag.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
That is very helpful—thank you.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witness on behalf of the Committee. The Committee will meet again at 11.30 am on Thursday 11 January to commence line-by-line consideration of the Bill.