Criminal Justice Bill
Public Bill Committee, 12 December 2023.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
We are now sitting in public and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we begin, I have a couple of preliminary announcements. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members emailed their speaking notes to them. Please switch off any electronic devices or turn them to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings—only water please.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take these matters formally. I first call the Minister or the Whip to move the programme motion, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and will be circulated to Members by email. We will now sit in private to discuss lines of questioning.
Examination of Witness
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
We are now sitting in public and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make any declarations of interest in connection with this Bill? No, okay.
We will now hear oral evidence from Chief Constable Gavin Stephens. Mr Stephens, you are very welcome. Thank you for joining us as Chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this panel, we have until 9.55 am. Would the witness introduce themselves for the record?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Thank you very much. I call Alex Norris.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Thank you for your time this morning, Chief Constable. Your colleagues in the NPCC generally have talked a lot in the past couple of years about the misconduct and disciplinary processes for officers. Clause 74 relates to that to some degree. What is the NPCC’s view on it?Q
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Is there anything on the NPCC wish list that you would have that would go further than what is in the Bill?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Do you have any general comments about the antisocial behaviour provisions in the Bill?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q I have one final question, if I may, Chair. Obviously, the purpose of legislation like this is that there will be new responsibilities and offences that come fundamentally to your members and their teams to enforce and to utilise those new powers. Do you have any concerns about your resourcing and ability to meet the new expectations?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Good morning, Gavin. Let me start by putting on record my thanks to you, as chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, and to all your colleagues in policing for the work that you and officers up and down the country do daily. You put yourselves in the line of danger to protect the rest of us, and I am sure that I speak for the whole Committee and the whole House when I put on record our thanks to you and to police officers up and down the country for the work that you do daily to keep the rest of us safe.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Let me move on to one or two of the provisions. You mentioned a moment ago the provisions concerning nuisance rough sleeping, and you rightly said that partnership working would be needed to ensure that people get the support that they need. Could you first just outline the kind of joint working that you would expect to happen to address that? Secondly, would you agree that where rough sleeping or begging is causing a nuisance to the public, it is reasonable to expect some action to be taken to prevent it?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Would you accept that antisocial behaviour in general is something that the public and Parliament expect police to act on?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q In relation to recovering stolen goods, members of the public often express surprise and frustration that when, for example, an iPhone is stolen and they can see where it is, the police do not necessarily go and retrieve it as quickly as the public would like and expect.
Would you agree that the warrantless powers of entry contained in the Bill, to enter premises to recover stolen goods where there is no other quick way of doing that and where there is a reasonable suspicion that the stolen goods are on the premises, will help the police to recover stolen goods and to arrest thieves who might otherwise go undetected and unpunished?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Thank you, Gavin. I have one more question. As you know, we have been debating retail crime a great deal. The retail crime action plan, which Chief Constable Amanda Blakeman, in consultation with the Government, published just a few weeks ago, was extremely welcome. One thing that we have debated in Parliament, including during the passage of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, which the hon. Member for Stockton South—I mean the hon. Member for Stockton North; we have to be very careful when referring to Stockton these days—and I remember very fondly was whether we needed a separate offence of assaulting a retail worker.
In that piece of legislation, we ended up not creating a separate offence and instead making it a statutory aggravating factor where the victim is a retail worker. From a policing point of view, do you consider that that provides adequate protection for retail workers? Do you think that there would be any benefit in creating a separate offence of assaulting a retail worker, or would you be concerned that, if you did that, you could then ask, “What about teachers? What about local councillors? What about minors?” and so on?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Thank you.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Before I bring Jess in, four further Members have caught my eye. You have nine minutes between you, so bear that in mind.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
MessageQ received.
To take you back to the conduct questions that you started with, are you satisfied with the current system in policing for finding bad conduct where it has occurred?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Okay, but are you convinced that the powers in this Bill and the intelligence that you have currently is enough to identify misconduct such as—I declare a special interest—sexual violence and domestic abuse in offices?Q
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I know the answer to this question, but I will ask it anyway. Do you know whether the findings in civil courts in our country of a case where, for example, a police officer is found, in a finding of fact hearing in the family court, to have raped his wife, would appear on your intelligence system?Q
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I guarantee you that it does not. Do you think that it would be helpful to have a repository of information from all of the courts in our land on safeguarding findings, such as on child abuse, for the police to access to ensure that conduct could be guaranteed?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Thank you.
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
OnQ the issue of rough sleeping, I totally get that the police need to work with partners. By the way, I would just like to say that Essex police are doing phenomenal work on this and many other issues in the Chelmsford city centre, using hotspots and grid policing and so on, but occasionally, even though we are trying to give people support, there are some people with complex needs who are still sleeping on the streets, and we sometimes have the issue that they are sleeping in the fire escape of a large store, for example, which causes danger to others. Are the powers in this Bill the sort of powers that you could use to gently request that that person sleeps in another venue, without blocking a fire escape?
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Or stronger.
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Q Okay, but they are not doing it now, so they clearly do not have the power now. Will this give police the power to say, “No sleeping in this fire escape, which is putting hundreds of lives at risk if there is a fire”?
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Q Thank you. On the issue of retail crime, again, my local police have been doing some very good work on tackling shoplifting, including of smaller items, but sometimes, obviously, there is concern about assaults on shop workers. How do you currently tackle assaults on shop workers? Would having a specific offence of assaulting a shop worker make a difference, or would you then say that we need to have offences of assaulting a teacher or assaulting lots of other professions as well?
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Q Okay. From time to time, we get very serious issues in the night-time economy, with people being spiked. The concern is often raised that although spiking is covered by law, it is a very ancient law, and if one had a specific offence about spiking that was crystal clear, that would act as a deterrent to the spikers. What are your thoughts on that?
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Thank you.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
I remind Members to try to avoid asking the same questions, because we are limited for time with our witnesses. I call Mark Garnier.
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Chief Constable, thank you for coming. On this retail crime thing, obviously it is a big scourge—my congratulations to you on increasing arrest rates by, I think, 29%.Q
One complaint that I have heard from my local police is that, although they can come in, arrest people and charge people, and take them to court, quite often the retailer, who is the victim of the crime, may be reluctant, after a few instances to go to court and spend a day in court away from their shop. Then, quite possibly, it will be a suspended sentence and that criminal will be back in their shop the next day, after they have lost that day’s work. Does this Bill address any of those particular problems, and do you, in your capacity, find that a problem in securing prosecutions against retail criminals?
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Thank you very much.
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Good morning. I want to talk a bit about knife crime. I am sure all of us have constituents who have been a victim of knife crime or affected by it. Can you speak about the work you are doing to reduce knife crime and whether you think the provisions in the Bill will improve the situationQ ?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q So there would be an offence of being seen with a weapon, as opposed to actually carrying it and using it. Is that what you are saying?
Anna Firth (Conservative, Southend West)
On that point, the ability of the police to seize knives that may be lawfully held in private but that the police suspect may be used to threaten is now contained in clause 18. Is clause 18 going to be very beneficial to you operationally?Q
Anna Firth (Conservative, Southend West)
Q Coming to other areas of knife crime, can you give us some examples of how the new offence of possession of a knife or offensive weapon with intent to use in unlawful violence bridges the gap in legislation between simple possession and using a bladed article or offensive weapon to threaten or harm someone? How will that help the police to tackle knife crime in a more proactive manner?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witness for their evidence and we will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
We will now hear evidence from Graeme Biggar, director general of the National Crime Agency; Gregor McGill, director of legal service for the Crown Prosecution Service; and Baljit Ubhey, director of strategy and policy for the Crown Prosecution Service. For this panel, we have until 10.40 am. Welcome to you all, and thank you for joining us. I know I have just done it, but could you all please introduce yourselves for the record?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you, witnesses, for your time this morning; it is much appreciated. Graeme Biggar, clauses 1 to 8 relate to serious crime, theft or fraud. For us in this place, it can be a challenge to keep up with the new and novel tactics used particularly by organised crime enterprises globally, but also in this country. What are your reflections on those new provisions, and are they up to date enough to keep up with the changing challenges of organised crime?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Clauses 1 to 8.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
They deal with offences related to things used in serious crime, theft or fraud, such as SIM farms and 3D printers—the sorts of items that can be used in organised crime.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Just quickly, I have a question for colleagues from the Crown Prosecution Service. There are lots of new offences in this Bill. New offences mean new arrests, and new arrests should then lead to new charges and new cases. From a CPS point of view, how do you feel at the moment about resourcing and being able to take cases through speedily, and do you have any anxieties about new burdens and the extra support you might need in order to exercise those new burdens?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Graeme, thank you for all the work that you and your colleagues at the NCA do—and thank you also to the CPS for the work that you do prosecuting cases. Graeme, you mentioned in response to the shadow Minister, who covered many of the points I would have asked about, the articles used for serious and organised crime, including 3D printing templates for firearms. Do the clauses as drafted contain everything you would want to see in that regard? Are there any areas where the drafting could be improved or does this do the trick as it is drafted?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. There is a power in clause 21 to allow police and law enforcement, including the NCA, to access driving licence records to do a facial recognition search, which, anomalously, is currently quite difficult. When you get a crime scene image from CCTV or something like that, do you agree it would be useful to be able to do a facial recognition search across DVLA records as well as the other records that can currently be accessed?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Great. Can I just turn to the CPS? You probably heard us a moment ago asking Gavin Stephens about whether there is any merit in considering a separate stand-alone offence for assaulting a retail worker. Obviously, we made it a statutory aggravating factor in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which has really only just begun to come into force now. What is the view of the Crown Prosecution Service as to whether a separate offence is merited, or do you feel that we have an offence that covers it and continuously adding new groups of people through stand-alone offences might be counterproductive or unnecessary?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Yes—so the CPS would not be in favour of creating a stand-alone offence.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q No? Okay. Thank you very much indeed.
My next question is again for the CPS. In relation to the knife crime provisions, some of them are in this Bill and others are being taken forward via secondary legislation, of course; I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West for her campaigning on this issue. Do you feel that the new offence being created, of possession of a weapon with intent to use unlawful violence, is a helpful addition to the statute book and might enable those who intend to use serious violence but have not yet committed it to be given longer sentences?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q In relation to the firearms offence, do you find that in practice that has led to prosecutions with commensurately higher sentences?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. I have another question for the CPS. Can you give your views on serious crime prevention orders and say how we can make sure they are used as widely as possible?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q The creep-up in the standard is not a statutory issue, is it, because the statute is clear that it is the balance of probability? It is the way that it is being applied judicially, with all due respect, of course, to judicial independence.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Indeed. Parliament clearly considered that question in legislating and chose, deliberately and after consideration, to set the standard as the balance of probabilities, and one would expect the judges to apply that.
If I have time to do so, I would just like to ask a question to the NCA and to the CPS about the confiscation regime and the changes to that regime proposed in this Bill. I think that the Committee would be interested in hearing your assessment of the likely impact of the changes proposed in the Bill, particularly in clause 32.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q These provisions are referenced in clause 32, but that references schedule 4, which is 38 pages long—even by the standards of primary legislation, that is quite extensive. Have the NCA and the CPS studied the draft in detail, and are you content with it, or not?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q It does everything it needs to. This is your last chance to request changes. Are you content?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q So you welcome these changes on SCPOs.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. Same questions to the CPS on the confiscation provisions in schedule 4.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q To be expressly clear, may I confirm with you that the CPS has reviewed all 38 pages of schedule 4, and you are happy with them?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
And they are happy?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
That is a very good point, which we will undertake to take away to look at. It sounds like a very fair request. I will get on to it now.
Flick Drummond (Conservative, Meon Valley)
I am looking at clause 20, “Suspension of internet protocol addresses and internet domain names”, and schedule 3. Two thirds of online fraud and purchase scams are done through social media platforms. Do you think the Bill gives enough power to ensure that social media companies take those platforms down quickly enoughQ ?
Flick Drummond (Conservative, Meon Valley)
Q This will definitely make things like Meta, which I think most of it comes through, be able to access the domain names and take them down quickly.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Before I call the next question, I remind Members to catch my eye as early as possible. If you do not, I will give leeway to those who caught my eye earlier and you may not get in. I appreciate that points may occur to you as discussions develop, but it would be helpful for timing. I call Jess Phillips.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Specifically to the NCA, what is not in the Bill that would help your work? For example, I take a personal interest in the NCA’s work on people smuggling and human trafficking, and—no offence to the CPS—the woeful levels of conviction in that space. What is missing from the Bill that would help you?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Currently, there is no legal definition of adult sexual exploitation in our country, only child exploitation, and there is no strategy on adult sexual exploitation. What work does the NCA actually do in the space of huge grooming gangs, for example, or does it not matter when the people are over the age of consent?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q What about women from Britain?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I’ll take you on a night out, mate. I could show you it in every single part of the country.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So the NCA would not undertake work on large-scale criminal gangs in our country that are exploiting British adults?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Order. I remind you that you need to focus on the scope of the Bill rather than the general work of the agencies, not to in any way diminish the importance of the issue. Do you have any further questions, Jess?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I am done.
Anna Firth (Conservative, Southend West)
Q Back to knife crime and clause 10 of the Bill. As you know, clause 10 will introduce a higher maximum penalty for manufacturing, importing, supplying or selling offensive weapons such as zombie knives and flick knives, especially to under-18s—to children. Amazingly, at the moment the penalty for that is only six months, and it is a summary-only offence in the magistrates court. Under the Bill, it will become an indictable offence carrying a penalty of two years. Do you think that is a good change, which will lead to longer sentences? Because it is indictable, it will give the police more time to investigate these crimes, particularly when they are online sales using web app groups and so on, and it takes a lot longer to get the data.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Apologies to Vicky: I understand that you could not hear me, down at the bottom. If any Members cannot hear, please raise your hand to let me know and I will endeavour to speak up.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I have just one question for you, Mr Biggar. You were talking about child sex abuse material. I want to ask specifically about border services. At the NCA, have you encountered as a limiting factor the fact that border services cannot search electronic devices such as laptops and iPads for potential child sex abuse material, even when they have intelligence or evidence to suggest that a person entering or leaving the United Kingdom may be an offender in that way? Are you aware of that? If so, can you comment on it? Do not worry if the answer is no.
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Q May I ask the question I put to the previous witness about spiking? It comes up from time to time in the night-time economy in my constituency. If there were a modernisation of the law that made it very clear that spiking is a legal offence, could that act as a deterrent?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
If there is time, Chair, I would like to ask a couple of things.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Absolutely. There is time. So that Members are aware, we have until 10.37 am. Please make the most of our esteemed guests.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q There are some proposals in the Bill relating to attendance at sentencing hearings. I am mindful that somebody has to deliver the individual to the court. Are there potential pitfalls with that in the proposed legislation?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q We will put the question of how it will be managed to the Minister during the line-by-line scrutiny. We are supportive of the idea, but we want to understand how it can happen.
The Bill also proposes to transfer prisoners to foreign prisons. That will require international co-operation. I am interested to know whether the police or anybody else have any reservations about transferring people to foreign prisons.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Sorry, can I interrupt? What should the regulations say?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q They are political decisions, yes, but we face a situation where, as you mentioned, if somebody commits an offence or if a prisoner assaults a prison officer, the person will then be subject to Dutch law, if we are using the example of a Dutch prison—not British law.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
So, as you say, it is quite complicated.
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q I want to pick up on a question I asked the previous witness about prosecutions of retail criminals such as shoplifters and people who assault shop workers. One of the complaints I have had from the police in my constituency is that where they do make an arrest and bring a prosecution, two things happen. The first is that, more often than not, the criminal gets a suspended sentence and is then back to commit more crime the following day, which is very frustrating for the retailer. The other problem is that the retailer will have to give up a day to give evidence to the court; and quite often they work in a small, one or two-man or woman business. You have a loss of earnings for that retailer, who then suddenly finds the same criminals back in their shop the next day.
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q Baljit, you are nodding very enthusiastically. I will go to Mr McGill first and then Baljit. Generally, do you have any comments about that? Is it a well-known problem and does the Bill in any way come to help in that?
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q You end up with a negative spiral, where you have less enthusiasm from the victim to prosecute the crime. Baljit, do you want to leap in on that?
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q Are the courts letting down the CPS, the police and the victims?
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
That is helpful. Thank you.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
We will now hear oral evidence from Baroness Newlove and Nicole Jacobs. For this panel we have until 11.25 am. Welcome to you both. Would you please introduce yourselves for the record?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Good morning and thank you for being here this morning to give us your evidence. The Victims and Prisoners Bill is still very much alive in Parliament—some of us would have it improved considerably—but there are provisions in this particular Bill that affect victims. What are your general thoughts about how this Bill furthers the cause of victims?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q I could stop you there, but I am more interested now, as I hear you say that there are things that are not there. What are the things that we should be building on in Committee?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is very helpful. Baroness Newlove?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is very helpful. Could I refer you to clauses 11 and 12 on assisting serious self-harm? Do you think the provisions go far enough, or too far?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q You have both welcomed clauses 23 and 24 relating to aggravating factors. Do they go far enough?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is very helpful. Baroness, I wonder if I might ask you about the sentencing provisions in the Bill in relation to having defendants forcibly attend court. There are some victims who want to face their perpetrator in court, while others have different thoughts. What do you see as the positives and the downsides to those provisions?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I will start with the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. First, I want to provide some reassurance; statutory instruments are being used to implement more of Clare Wade’s recommendations, including both the mitigating and aggravating nature of the coercive control, depending on whether it is victim or perpetrator. On that note, could you comment specifically on the section 30 provisions that deal with the MAPPA management of someone who has a serious conviction of coercive control, so a sentence of longer than 12 months? Could you explain how you think that multi-agency arrangement will improve public protection on this issue?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q On that, the principal conclusion of Clare Wade’s report was that coercive control underpins most domestic abuse. Do you think that if there were consistency in the application of that, the MAPPA arrangements would ultimately catch the most serious domestic abuse offenders?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q You have already answered the question about domestic homicide at the end of a relationship. On a point of clarification, may I ask you about the right of the chief constable to appeal a subordinate’s disciplinary outcome? That is a highly irregular employment law arrangement. Can I clarify that I understood your answer correctly? I think you welcomed that right, but you said that PCC should have an ultimate oversight role in the event that there is deficiency down the chain. First, do you support that external right of appeal in principle? I cannot think of any other model whereby somebody else can appeal against your disciplinary. Secondly, can I clarify that you were saying that there should be an extra buffer?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Baroness Newlove, on the antisocial behaviour suite of legislative measures, I wanted to ask you about the clause 71 provisions:
“Reviews of responses to complaints about anti-social behaviour”.
It is that package of measures. Given your work on that, what could you say about that providing adequate coverage of some of the issues that victims have reported to you in the past?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Do you think the review-type arrangement—the engagement by the local policing body and more widely—is better at addressing, for the victim, that sense of their voice not being heard?Q
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q My final question is about the minimum age provisions in that. I know that the age of criminal responsibility begins at 10, but based on your work, was that an area where you found that antisocial behaviour was perpetrated a lot by youngsters in their teens?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Nicole, give the Committee an idea of the number of domestic abuse incidents a year.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
And then those that get reported to the police?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q One in five of those, so you can all do the maths quickly—because the Prime Minister tells us that that is important. Last year, the conviction figure on coercive control was 564, so we have gone from 2 million down to 564 that will be affected by this Bill. Of course, it only affects those over 12 months, so I think that is 10% of that 564. Is that correct?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So we are getting down to under 100 victims of domestic abuse actually affected by this Bill. I just want to make sure that I have got that right. Is that correct?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Yes. So, as you have said, the MATAC and Drive programmes, and actually what is going on in the Metropolitan police at the moment, look beyond a conviction rate. Therefore, actually, with this Bill, when we are talking about victims of domestic abuse with regard to MAPPA, I would say that a “drop in the ocean” would be an understatement, numbers-wise.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
It is about 56.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So would you like to see those in the Bill, rather than just this MAPPA situation?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q And, just to be clear, on the number of people who go on to murder, is it the group who would currently fall under MAPPA in, to use the Minister’s words, the “most serious” domestic abuse incidents who largely go on to murder their partners and children, or is it other perpetrators of domestic abuse?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Yes.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q On the vetting issue—I raised this with the chief constable who was in front of us earlier—you have eloquently said that the vetting of police officers should be taking place every five years rather than every 10 years, and I know that your offices have undertaken quite intricate work into the situation within the family courts. In the vetting of police officers, and, in fact, in the targeting of domestic abusers more broadly, do institutions such as the police or the courts use the evidence—proven evidence and found evidence in British courts, such as the family courts—in our criminal institutions and in the vetting of police officers?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So there is a situation in our country today where somebody could be found in the family court to have multiply sexually abused a child in that home, and that would not appear on the police’s vetting system.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Do we have any further questions? We have 12 more minutes, if anyone want to take the opportunity.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Baroness Newlove, although Nicole could undoubtedly answer this as well, in your work with victims of serious child sexual abuse, sexual violence, domestic abuse—in fact, any victim of any crime, specifically childhood abuse—what do you think the incidence is of those people ending up in the criminal justice system or, for example, with substance misuse issues, which may lead to homelessness?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q For women who are offenders, there is a pattern to the abuse they have suffered—all the research shows that in the high rates of, certainly, domestic and sexual violence in the prison population of women. As the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, how would you feel about those women being sent to a foreign country should they commit a crime?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
If there are no further questions, I would like to thank our witnesses, Baroness Newlove and Nicole Jacobs, for their evidence and for their time. That brings us to the end of the morning session, and the Committee will meet again at 2 pm here in the Boothroyd Room to continue taking oral evidence.
Angela Eagle (Labour, Wallasey)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. We will begin this afternoon’s session by hearing oral evidence from Harvey Redgrave and Rebecca Bryant OBE, who is with us virtually. We have until 2.45 pm for this panel, so please keep your eyes on the clock. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Angela Eagle (Labour, Wallasey)
I begin this evidence session by calling Alex Norris for the Opposition.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Good afternoon to both our witnesses; thank you for your time. Rebecca Bryant, you mentioned Resolve’s long-running interest in antisocial behaviour. Could you give us your views on the clauses in the Bill that relate to antisocial behaviour and whether there is anything you would add to them?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q76 May I come back to the point on the minimum age for community protection notices? When responding to the Government’s antisocial behaviour action plan, you talked about how we need to think about children as victims of antisocial behaviour—I think your phrase was “silent victims”. Could you briefly talk us through that?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Mr Redgrave, may I ask you a bit about some of the section 16 provisions about drug testing? You may be familiar with the ambition to give greater powers to test for controlled substances—class B and class C drugs—with a view to directing the person into appropriate treatment at an earlier stage; the idea is that that will intercept more serious offending further down the line. You have written something about this, for the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, I think—or, at least, the Institute has done so. Can you comment on the provision, and what is your view of a wider form of testing in police stations?
Angela Eagle (Labour, Wallasey)
Please try to speak up a bit.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I think that some of that is in the Sentencing Bill, which is running in tandem with this legislation.
The other question I wanted to ask is about Crest Advisory’s role in Baroness Casey’s review—again, if you were not personally involved in that, you can correct me. I think Crest Advisory played some role in supporting her review into the misconduct issues in the Met police, and there are two provisions in this Bill that at least partially respond to that. I would like to look at clause 73, which is on ethical policing and the duty of candour. In the light of your work with Baroness Casey, do you think it is important, and if so why? What does it answer in relation to her findings about failings in the Metropolitan police?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Do you think it is helpful then that the duty of candour, and what is required underneath it, will be set by the College of Policing? Do you think that will help ensure consistency?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q My final question on this topic is about the other highly irregular employment-law-type power in the Bill: the right conferred on a chief constable to appeal against a disciplinary outcome for one of their subordinates. I think we can put that in plain English: if they do not like an acquittal, essentially, they can submit an appeal. Do you think that is an appropriate power for a chief constable to hold? I think Baroness Casey dealt with that; I recall reading about senior officers who were unhappy about the fact that they suspected problematic people were still part of the team.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Okay, that is helpful. My final line of questioning is about one of the issues that has been debated in Parliament, not just in relation to this Bill but previously too. It was about having a stand-alone offence of assaulting a retail worker. I do not know whether you are familiar with the contours of that debate.
We heard from the Crown Prosecution Service this morning, and it said that it did not think such an offence was necessary because the mechanics of an assault charge apply anyway—obviously, with actual bodily harm and grievous bodily harm, if that should arise. There is also a statutory aggravating factor for assaulting a retail worker. Do you have a view on this? If you do, could you set out what it is and why?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Just to be clear, is your view basically that the police response needs to be more uniform, rather than we need a distinct offence?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Okay. That is all from me.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q I would like to ask Rebecca Bryant some further questions about the antisocial behaviour and nuisance begging and rough sleeping measures.
Rebecca, thank you for joining us this afternoon. In response to the shadow Minister, you raised questions about reducing the minimum age for community protection notices from 16 to 10, which is enclosed within clause 67 of the Bill. Do you agree that bringing 10 to 15-year-olds into the scope of CPNs provides an opportunity to halt a path into criminality that might otherwise occur? Combined with that, there is an opportunity to make other interventions to try to prevent the young person from getting into crime.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Those interventions are likely to be tried prior to the use of a CPN. Do you not agree that a CPN would be a welcome alternative to prosecution in the more extreme cases?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. I would like to move on to the nuisance begging and nuisance rough sleeping measures. First, do you support the plans to implement the repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824, and do you agree that repealing that Act potentially leaves some gaps in the law? I would like your views on the nuisance begging and nuisance rough sleeping provisions in clauses 38 to 62, which are designed to replace the 1824 Act measures where nuisance is being caused, but not otherwise.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Thank you, Rebecca. Those are all my questions.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Harvey, do you think that there is the capacity for police forces across the country to drug-test everybody who comes through their doorsQ ?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So if this law passes, it will not be able to be enacted?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Never assume, Harvey. So currently, across the policing estate in our country, this would not be able to happen.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Okay. As the conversation was about Louise Casey’s review, I was remembering some of the highlighted things in that review—testing samples left in fridges with sandwiches and things. I cannot say I have noted that the police estate across the country could cope with anything like this law, so I just wanted to check. Going back to Louise Casey’s review and the issue of vetting and suspension, do you think that what is in the Bill is enough?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Okay. Have you seen evidence that where police officers are suspected of violence against women and girls or child abuse they should be suspended from duty, not just put on paper-based activities?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q You would agree that they should be suspended, as a teacher would be.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Okay. But currently that is not in the Bill.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Please feel free.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So you think there might be a legislative solution by writing that into primary legislation or secondary legislation.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I will crack on with that, then.
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Rebecca, when you were talking about clause 67 and the CPNs, I think you suggested at the beginning of your comments that this was not a unanimous view from your members. Is that correctQ ?
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
It is not a unanimous view from your members.
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Q I just asked a very simple question: were your members unanimously opposed to this measure? And you said no, it is not unanimous—correct?
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Thank you.
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
I have a question for Harvey—a point of clarification, really. You mentioned that you did not think that there was any need to increase the sentence for shoplifting; you thought that it just needed to be applied more uniformly. Is that rightQ ?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q I think the Minister started by asking about the creation of a new stand-alone offence of assaulting a retail worker. By association with your previous answer, do you think that that is unnecessary, or do you think it would be a helpful deterrent?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q Sorry to interrupt, but are you saying that all assaults on retail workers tend to be associated with shoplifting?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q Thank you. Rebecca, can I follow up on Vicky Ford’s question? You made it clear that opposition to reducing the age to 10 was not unanimous. There were some people who thought that 14 might be more appropriate. Were there any who thought it should go up?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q So it is really just a question of finding the right level. Is that correct?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q Okay. The problem is that between the ages of 10 and 16 there is a vast range of maturity, shall we say. Presumably, if some discretion were exercised, it might well be an appropriate measure for some 10-year-olds but not for others. Would you agree?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Q Finally, with an understanding of everything that you have just said, do you think that the measure proposed will be detrimental, or is it just unnecessary?
Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)
Thank you very much.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Rebecca, I am really interested in the stuff about 10-year-olds. You said that if there were a situation in which one of these orders would be applicable, there would be other issues in that child’s life that were affecting their behaviours and everything else. What would be better than imposing this sort of order on a child of 10?Q
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Would you accept that a family that has a child with challenges in his or her life may not be the best equipped to ensure that the child adheres to any order placed on them, and the child may therefore end up in the criminal end of the business rather than the supported end of the business?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
That is very helpful. Thank you.
Angela Eagle (Labour, Wallasey)
Thank you. It looks like there are no further questions from Members. I thank the witnesses for their evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Angela Eagle (Labour, Wallasey)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Andy Marsh and Andy Cooke. We potentially have until 3.30 pm for this panel. Would the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you both for your time this afternoon. Andy Marsh, I would like to start with you. The point about vetting has come up frequently. You may have heard it in the previous panel, and you may be aware that we also discussed it this morning. What is the College’s view on vetting?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q I might come to you, Andy Cooke, in a second for your reflections on that, but very briefly, when you write up your expectations, are you likely to put a new time limit on the period of vetting or do you have an alternative way of doing that?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Do you think that is technologically possible?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Andy Cooke, is the inspectorate of a similar mind to the College on this?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Andy Cooke, clause 19 allows entry, search and seizure without a warrant under certain circumstances. Do you have any concerns over that power and how we can have confidence that it is being exercised properly?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Thank you very much.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Welcome Andy Marsh and Andy Cooke. Let me take the opportunity to say thank you for all the work you and your teams do supporting policing across England and Wales. It is very much appreciated by all of us, both in Government and in Parliament.
Andy Marsh, can I continue the line of questioning about the warrantless power of entry where it is necessary to recover stolen goods when there is no time to get a warrant? Andy Cooke just mentioned that the inspectorate would keep a close eye on whether that power, if granted by Parliament, is being exercised properly. Could you confirm for the Committee’s benefit whether you would in due course, if this were passed, produce some authorised professional practice to make sure that police forces exercise the power in a way that is responsible?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q So do you, like Andy Cooke, support the inclusion of this measure in the Bill?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q And are you confident that, with the right guidance and inspection regime, it can be implemented in a reasonable and proportionate way?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. Let me ask Andy Marsh again, about the statutory ethical policing code contained in clause 73, which includes a statutory duty of candour, which was one of Bishop James Jones’s recommendations following Hillsborough. Can you tell the Committee what kind of impact you think that will have on police conduct in general and, specifically, the duty of candour going forward?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Great, thank you. May I ask Andy Cooke and Andy Marsh each in turn a question which has arisen a few times, both in this Committee’s proceedings today but also over the last year or two? It relates to the question of whether there should or should not be a separate offence for the assault of a retail worker.
As you know, we made assaulting a public-facing worker a statutory aggravating factor for other assault offences in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. We have already created a separate offence of assaulting emergency workers. Some people now say that we should have a separate offence for assaulting a retail worker, to give it more prominence. Others say, “Well, where do you draw the line?” You could have an offence for assaulting a teacher, a local councillor—and so it might go on. What is your opinion about whether there is any use in creating that separate, stand-alone offence?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Before Andy Marsh answers the same question, you referred to the recently published retail crime action plan, which Chief Constable Amanda Blakeman authored in close consultation with me as Police Minister and with the Home Office. You highlighted the unacceptably low charge rates, which I agree with. What level of confidence do you have that that retail crime action plan will deliver those results? To what extent will you be able to follow that up in your regular PEEL inspections and your “all reasonable lines of inquiry” thematic next spring to make sure that that action plan, which is good on paper, is actually delivered in practice and delivers the results, which are more detections and arrests?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q I completely agree, as you know. Without the zero-tolerance approach, there is a risk of escalation. Andy Marsh, may I put the same question to you about the utility or not of a separate offence?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q It is not a proposal; it is from the Government—it is an idea that has been floated from time to time.
Moving on to a proposal contained in clause 21, which relates to giving police access to driver licence records—particularly the photograph—which currently are only readily accessible for road traffic purposes. The idea is that they can be used for facial recognition searches, where an image is retrieved from a crime scene from CCTV. That might include a shoplifting offence. This would make the DVLA driving licence database searchable by the police, in the same way that other databases are, including for facial recognition purposes. In your view, both Andy Marsh and Andy Cooke, would that assist the police in investigations? Is that a measure you would support?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Excellent. My final question relates to clause 74, which is concerned with the appeal mechanism after a misconduct hearing. At the moment, if an officer is dismissed by the panel—which remains an independent-majority panel with the chief chairing it—the officer who has been dismissed can appeal to the police appeal tribunals. If the officer is left in post, however, there is no appeal the other way, so if the chief constable wants to sack the officer for misconduct and disagrees with the panel, there is no right of appeal. This clause would introduce such a right of appeal.
Do you agree with the Met Commissioner, Sir Mark Rowley, in saying that this measure will help chief constables better to manage their workforce and root out officers guilty of misconduct where appropriate and where necessary?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Good. Thank you.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q My first question is to Andy Marsh on the issue of vetting, which he very eloquently said needs to be a constant. Do you not think, then, that there needs to be at least some guideline in law about the regularity of that vetting?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Okay. What sort of timeframe would you put on that hard period?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Ten years is currently the suggested—
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So currently, even if we were to legislate that the vetting had to be improved—
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
And it is currently not available.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Difficult choices would have to be made in order to ensure that vetting was happening. I appreciate your honesty.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Automated.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Database, AI and so on.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Of course. You talk about there being an automated system. I have asked everybody who has sat in front of me today this question. Currently there is no crossover between behaviours found in courts in the United Kingdom; so in family courts, in civil courts in our country, that would not currently be being used in the vetting. Let’s say a domestic abuser was found to be a multiple domestic abuser of various different women, in the family courts in this country. Would that come up in your vetting?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
The answer is no. I do know.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Except that less than one in five people come forward to the criminal justice system.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Okay. Excepting the four in five that don’t come forward.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Okay. But an automated system that had all of that data on it for vetting would be helpful?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q What is your view on the suspension issue? I have unfortunately heard of a case where a police officer was suspended for safeguarding concerns, shall we say, and was put on paper-based duty, and the thing they were doing was the vetting. Do you think that officers who are under suspicion of issues of domestic abuse, sexual abuse, child abuse and safeguarding-related crimes should be suspended?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Go for it, mate.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q But it would be very easy for a professional person to initially triage such a case, for example, and do some very clear due diligence about somebody’s mental ill health, the likelihood and the timings. If there were any sort of case to be investigated and answered, do you not think that the person should then be suspended?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I too will give you—
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Of course, of course. It is funny that often it is only on this issue that there are only grey areas. A police officer in my police force—in West Midlands police—was put on light duties after he was considered a risk to children, and he used that to access the data. He went on to abuse, and has since been convicted of abusing, around 19 teenage boys. He used the powers of being put on desk duties in the police force to do that.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I am afraid that I could probably come up with many more examples similar to that. You do not think that, in those circumstances, there should be a suspension.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q On the basis of it being currently treated on its merits, which we cannot necessarily legislate for, how many do you think are being suspended, left in police forces on separate duties, such as vetting, or, of those on that sort of suspension—as was the case in I think the Metropolitan police; it was definitely a police force—are training the new officers?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Okay. That would be very helpful, thank you. Confidence that anything can be implemented is undoubtedly vital. Your eBay example was a good one. You stated that you were confident that all this could be implemented; however, you just said that the police would need to write a cheque, or that a massive cheque would have to be written for some of the ethics and standards things. If everything in the Bill were implemented—I invite you to comment, for example on how you think the drugs testing would be rolled out—how it is possible that everything will be implemented at the same time as prioritising violence against women and girls crimes in every force? How will it be implemented so that confidence is not lost?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Oh, specifically—apologies. Do you think that everything in the Bill could be implemented?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Such as?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
There is currently not the capacity available to do that.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I didn’t think there was. Okay, thank you.
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Andy Marsh, can I continue with you? I have an observation, following on from Jess Phillips, about what sounds like a nightmare, where you were accused of rape by somebody. Just as an observation, were that to happen to a Member of Parliament, you might find yourself being asked to stay away from the House. You might lose the Whip from the party you are a member of. It is an interesting observation that in this place, there is almost a presumption of guilt before anything else when it comes to this type of crime, where in theory Members of Parliament can have access to vulnerable people. It is an interesting dichotomy, I suppose, that where the police have access to vulnerable people the whole time there could be this same problem. As I say, that is more of an observation than me necessarily asking you to respond to itQ —
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q It is about the response to the standards of conduct; it is not necessarily the standards of behaviour, but the response to them and how Parliament responds.
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q No, no—I wasn’t trying to suggest there was a soft attitude. I was just trying to say that there are lots of different examples.
I wanted to follow on from Minister Philp’s questions earlier about powers of entry, because I was fascinated by your response. You mentioned that you might see that somebody obviously has an iPhone in their house—it has been stolen and then found on the Find My iPhone app, so there is very hard evidence that it is definitely there, but a police officer cannot do anything about that. You mentioned similarly a bicycle that could be for sale—a daughter’s bicycle for sale on eBay, for instance. You talked about how you would give guidance to police officers on how they go about enforcing this, but I came away slightly more confused; this is more me as a layman, trying to understand how you go about doing your business.
What struck me is that at the one end of the scale through the Find My iPhone app, you are looking directly at a bleep that says, “This phone is in the front bedroom of this bloke’s house in Walthamstow” or wherever—other constituencies are available. You know for a fact that it is there because the electronic signature is there. If someone has a bicycle up on eBay, it is probably there because that is where the person is advertising it from, but you do not necessarily know for sure. At the other end of the scale, you have a hunch that somebody may have some stolen goods in their house, but you would obviously then get a search warrant. If you are writing the guidance, how do you find the point at which one side is very clearly, and the other is very clearly not, eligible for the powers of entry?
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q There are different forces across the country. Some could be a bit more punchy about it, and some could be a bit more reticent about it, but eventually through legal testing in the courts you would come to a—
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q No, I am sure that is the case.
Andy Cooke, there will be a number of people who are going to be worried that the police may take advantage of these powers in order to get around the trouble of getting a search warrant. How would you reassure my constituents that that is not going to be the case and that we can be confident that this is going to be used for the legitimate reasons, which I am sure Andy Marsh will lay out? How can we be confident that that is not going to be broken?
Mark Garnier (Conservative, Wyre Forest)
Q And you are both confident it will be safe.