Renters (Reform) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 16 November 2023.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
Good morning. Is it the wish of the Committee that we go into a private session?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
I remind the Committee that Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members emailed their speaking notes. Please switch all electronic devices to silent. I am afraid that we cannot allow tea and coffee during sittings.
We are meeting today to continue hearing oral evidence relating to the Renters (Reform) Bill. Before we hear from today’s witnesses, does any Member wish to make any declaration of interest in connection with the Bill?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
I receive income support for my office to operate the all-party parliamentary group for renters and rental reform, and from renters’ organisations. I receive rent from a tenant in my personal home and am on the legal working group of a housing co-operative federation.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
I am the joint owner of a house that is rented out for residential lets, and I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
I am the joint owner of a commercially let property that is held in a pension fund.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
I am the joint owner of a property that is let out.
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
May I take your advice, Ms Fovargue? My understanding was that we only have to make our main declarations at our first meeting. Do we have to reiterate them each time?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
You will have to reiterate them each time.
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
In that case, I declare an interest: I receive support, in particular as set out in my entry under category 2(a) on the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, from individuals with an interest in this area.
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
I am a vice-president of the LGA and I let out a property.
Examination of Witness
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Judicaelle Hammond, director of policy and advice at the Country Land and Business Association. We have until 11.45 am; I remind all Members that matters should be limited to those within the scope of the Bill and that we have to stick to the timings. Could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Thank you for coming to give evidence to us. Your association and members have expressed concerns about the impact of measures in the Bill on rural businesses and communities. Could you give us some detail about those concerns and how you think any changes to the Bill might mitigate themQ 98?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q We all want a court system that works. We hope we will get one at some point! Separately from that, what are the particular concerns about the amended grounds for possession in the Bill? Can you give us a sense of what your members want the properties back for, if it is not one of the categories that, say, ground 1 or ground 1A allows for? Are we talking about the very real problem in coastal and rural communities of people switching over to short-term lets and second-home sales?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to our witness. You mentioned wanting to get a property back in case there is a problem with the tenancy. Do you welcome the changes that we are making to abolish fixed-term tenancies?
You further mentioned the CLA’s opinion on section 21. In terms of reforming the court system, what changes would you want to see before the CLA would be happy to see the abolition of section 21?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
I am afraid that this will have to be the last question to this witness, so could we please have a short question and answer?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q Could you expand a little on your concern about the way agricultural property can be repossessed to house an agricultural worker?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
I am afraid we are 40 seconds away from the end of the time allotted to the Committee to ask questions. Thank you very much, Ms Hammond, for coming to give evidence.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Helen Gordon, who is chief executive officer at Grainger. We have until 12 noon. Could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. You will no doubt touch on your wider concerns in answer to other questions, but I want to ask you specifically about student accommodation, in which I think Grainger has an interest. Am I right?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I have got that wrong; my apologies. In that case, could you expand on the concerns you touched on in your introduction about the grounds for possession and the notice period?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Would you accept that if the private rented sector is overhauled and improved, for example if we drive up standards, there should hopefully be a trend towards tenants not needing to move out after that minimum period, and we should have a system in which people have security and have less reason to stay in a property for only a short time?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to our witness. You are proposing that tenants should not be allowed to give notice to end the contract for the first six months. What would you say to someone who says that it is unfair for a landlord to be able to end a tenancy early, after less than six months, when a tenant is not able to end it early?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q On Tuesday, we discussed the antisocial behaviour grounds. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I have two quick questions. First, the Government are proposing a registration scheme for party flats and Airbnbs, and they are consulting on it at the moment. I understand your concerns, but how does the registration scheme fail to address them? Secondly, I am aware that Grainger has talked in the past about how it uses the consumer prices index and wage inflation to increase its rents, particularly for the build-to-rent market. Could you expand on whether it is still Grainger’s view that it is possible to use some sort of maximum capping clause on rent?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
And breaches of the lease are grounds for—
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
So you want it to be more explicit—
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
I think we are all talking about in-lease.
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
I just want to go back to your point about these party flats. What the Government are consulting on now, which Lloyd referred to, should address that, and also the other consultation on the current 90 days in London. Can you explain what you meant about what Westminster City Council is doing? It has always done the 90 days since the Deregulation Act 2015. That is not just Westminster City Council; it is the whole of London.Q
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Q That is what the Government are doing under the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act 2023.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q On Tuesday, we heard from a number of representatives of renters and landlord associations that a minimum term would be helpful in some circumstances, whether or not that is a two-year minimum term to try to provide the security and build the communities you have described. Do you think that that would be a good idea? How might it work in practice, in terms of some of the notice periods people might be able to give and allowing flexibility for people whose circumstances change?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
I am afraid that this will probably be the last question to the witness, so can we have a short question and answer please?
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
Q Very briefly, then, can you tell us the current typical length of a tenancy in one of your properties? Has this Bill affected the pipeline for properties that you will develop in future?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
I call Mike Amesbury, very briefly.
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q What is your view of the proposed ombudsman for the private rented sector?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
As there are no further questions, I thank Ms Gordon for her evidence. We can now move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Richard Miller, the head of justice at the Law Society, and Nimrod Ben-Cnaan, head of policy and profile at the Law Centres Network. We have until 12.30 pm for this panel. Could you both introduce yourselves for the record, please?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Gentlemen, thank you for coming to give evidence. As you know, the Government have tied the enactment of chapter 1 of part 1 of the Bill to court improvements. The best sense we have of what they mean was set out in the response to the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee, which covers four target areas: digitisation; prioritisation of certain cases; improving bailiff recruitment and retention; and providing early legal advice and better signposting. Is that your understanding of what court improvements might mean, or are there things outside the scope of that? How would we measure that? What could we put in the Bill so that we have some specific metrics by which we are able to judge when the abolition of section 21 will happen and when chapter 1 of part 1 of the Bill will come into force? How do we determine when court reform is sufficiently advanced?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Just to be clear, do you agree with Mr Miller that we should introduce the new system and then look to improve the courts, or do you think that it would be fair to instead specify metrics for what we mean by improvement and then put a time period in place for it to happen?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to both our witnesses. This question is specifically for Mr Miller. I am a little confused by your argument, because you seem to be suggesting that we should implement the changes to section 21 before court reform, but you then say that the courts are currently overwhelmed and that there would be more contested cases, therefore overwhelming the courts even further, if we were to abolish section 21 straight away. Could you clarify the points that you are making about that? What could we do to improve the court system today, before we bring in the changes to section 21?
Then, on Nimrod’s point about resolving cases before they even get to court, which I think is really relevant, I would be keen to know how you think the ombudsman could be used in such dispute resolution.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Your point is specifically around digitisation, so it is not necessarily about court reform as a whole. Specifically on digitisation, do you think that we could do section 21 before that?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Could I just go back to the issue of advice and representation? You both made the point that there are strong arguments for tenants being represented. Will you tell us what those arguments are? In practical terms, what are the consequences at different levels—within the courts, and also going back to issues such as homelessness—of people not being represented and having advice? Can you give us an indication of how the level of service is spread out across the country? Are there particular places and areas where there are difficulties for tenants in getting representationQ ?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q You mentioned the problem that 42% of the population cannot access a legal aid provider in their area, and we heard earlier from another witness that there is a shortage of courts in parts of rural Britain. You have just described Merseyside, and I am not sure there is an obvious geographical disparity there, but do you see a geographical disparity between rural and urban areas, or in specific parts of the country where it is much harder to obtain legal aid?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q Do you think that both tenants and landlords are adversely impacted by that, or is it more the tenants or more the landlords?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Can I just say toQ Nimrod that I am greatly helped by South West London Law Centres in my constituency? I am very grateful for the work they do, particularly at the emergency and routine desk at Croydon county court. I can only imagine what that is like on a daily basis. Lots of very vulnerable tenants turn up with absolutely no advice, and the best advice I give to them is to get there really early and get to the front of the queue. I imagine all sorts of things happen to tenants and landlords in those courts that are not fair or reasonable, but because nobody is represented, or it is very difficult to get representation, it is difficult to avoid that.
On reforming the whole county court system, what can be done other than to resource it better and provide better advice to people? I can only imagine the amount of time-wasting going on because people are desperately in search of help. Currently, at Croydon county court, it takes 16 weeks on average to get a bailiff’s warrant after a possession order is secured. On the other end, we have the local authorities that are desperate to delay for as long as they can, because they do not have anywhere to put people. What is the resolution to that?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q There is concern about a number of the either amended or new grounds for possession. I want to ask you specifically about the changes made to ground 14 and what they might mean for courts on the ground—specifically the change in the Bill’s wording from “likely to cause” to “capable of causing”. What do you think that means on the ground? Is there any concern from the point of view of county courts about that change, and is there perhaps a need, if the change is made, for at least guidance to the courts on how you differentiate genuine antisocial behaviour from instances of domestic violence, mental health crises and so on?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for you. Thank you very much to both of you for attending and for the evidence that you have given.
Examination of Witness
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Jacky Peacock, who is the head of campaigns for the organisation Advice for Renters. We have until 12.45 pm for this panel. Could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you for coming to give evidence to us. Chapter 3 of part 2 sets up a new database as a prelude to the portal, and we very much welcome it. We think it is actually one of the more exciting aspects of the Bill that could really make a difference. Assuming you agree with that, do you think there are any ways in which we might want to amend the Bill to be more prescriptive about what the portal needs to do and what conditions those registering on the portal need to meet? Do you have any concerns about how the portal might potentially operate?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
Can I move on to the Minister?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you very much for giving up your time. I understand what you have already said, but what are your views on applying the decent homes standard to the private sector? We could pass this Bill tomorrow, and a tenant would not necessarily know how their rights had changed. Do you agree that the simple act of abolishing section 21 is likely to give tenants more confidence when applying for tenancies?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Most of the grounds at the moment are non-discretionary or mandatory, and a few are discretionary. Is that balance correct, or should tenants be able to make specific hardship claims around financial issues, for example, or delay an eviction based on selling the house? For instance, if the tenant were receiving cancer treatment, they might seek a delay for a few months. Could you tell me about that distinction? Would that create more work or less?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q Some tenants are keen and able to exercise the right to purchase. What are your views on how that relationship might work in terms of when grounds are sought for a property to be put up for sale?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Someone going through a no-fault eviction must pay the cost of moving. Should there be some sort of recompense? Earlier this week, it was suggested that the tenant could be exempt from paying, say, the last two months’ rent.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
Thank you for your evidence and time, Ms Peacock.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Jen Berezai, the co-founder of AdvoCATS. We have until 1 pm for this panel. Could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you for giving up your time to come and talk to us this afternoon. You will no doubt welcome clause 7. Do you have any concerns that landlords may attempt not to advertise or let to tenants with pets on the basis that, if they offer the tenancy, under the Bill they cannot unreasonably refuse the tenant the right to keep that pet? Relatedly, do you think the Bill is robust enough on what an unreasonable refusal might mean and how it is defined and used?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Do you think that there is a risk of discrimination, with landlords attempting to filter out pet owners so that they do not have to encounter the unreasonable refusal provision?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q What are your concerns around the Bill?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q My tenant has a dog, and I was not aware that pet damage insurance was available. How widely available is it? Is there a market for people to choose a reasonably priced pet damage insurance product? Notwithstanding the fact that presumably it will mature if there is a lot of demand for it, is it there now?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q One of the discretionary grounds for possession is deterioration of the property or its furnishings. Do you find that landlords use that ground where the pet has not been as well behaved as anticipated?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
It is discretionary, but that is helpful. Thank you.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
Q Jen, can I just say that I am a big fan of your work? I am delighted that this was included in the Bill. I appreciate that the Bill does not apply UK-wide, but we have about 35 million pets in the UK. We are a nation of animal lovers. Do landlords have a particular grievance with dogs as opposed to other pets? I occasionally babysit my daughter’s house rabbits, and they eat everything: the carpet, electric cables, anything they can get their hands on. Generally speaking, do landlords have an aversion to dogs?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q I have a quick question about insurance, which you touched on briefly. Who should pick up the tab: the landlords or the tenants? Should there be something on that in the Bill?
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
Q I am also a massive cat lover—thank you for the work that you and Cats Protection have been doing in this area. It strikes me that some of this is about landlord attitudes. Are there any other ways in which the Government could reassure landlords with regard to taking on tenants who have pets? Could there be guidance on the interpretation of the reasonableness clause? What are the other ways and mechanisms we can use to help landlords not to be so afraid to take on tenants with pets?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
As there are no further questions from Members, I thank our witness for coming to give evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
May I welcome our three witnesses to the first of several sessions this afternoon in which we are taking expert evidence on the Bill? We are now in public and our proceedings are being broadcast. Perhaps it would be easiest if the witnesses introduced themselves.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
I thank each of you for coming to give evidence to us. I have two questions. The first relates to the amended grounds for possession, which we have discussed numerous times in previous evidence sessions. There are concerns about the amended or new grounds, particularly the de facto no-fault grounds that remain. Can you give us your view on some of those? Should they be removed entirely, made discretionary, or tightened in a way that might better protect residents from loopholes, abuse and exploitation by a minority of landlords?Q135
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Who wants to go first?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Do not feel that you have to say anything, Mr Mullings, unless you have something different to say.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I am sorry to interrupt, but we have only 45 minutes and then I will cut you off even if you are mid-sentence. Saying that you agree with one another does not add to the Committee’s general understanding, so say different things and do not feel that all three of you have to answer all the questions.
Please go on. I rudely interrupted; I apologise.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Briefly, to follow up on clause 6, which revolves around challenging the amount or increase of rent, we have concerns that even with the expanded right to challenge, the tribunal system will not provide sufficient protection. Do you have any thoughts on how, leaving aside other options, that process might be tightened? For example, should the tribunal’s ability to award rents higher than what the landlord specifies be taken out of the Bill? Should there be other protections that allow renters to leave if they are served with that higher notice? Should they have another section 13 notice? I am keen to hear your views on how we might tighten clause 6.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to our panel of witnesses. We have spoken a few times about ground 8A. What would you say to someone who said that it is unfair for landlords to suffer multiple breaches of rent arrears? And on a completely separate thing from ground 8A, we are introducing a new ombudsman to the private rented sector. How do you think that ombudsman can work? Would you say that it can help to reduce the pressure on the court system?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Currently, the tribunal on rents is to make a determination of whether the rent could be reasonably expected to be made in the open market, and it therefore looks at new rents and not necessarily existing rents and other factors. There are some things that are disregarded and some things that the courts must have regard for. Is that enough, or should the courts have a stronger regard for other factors, in terms of a reasonable rent?Q
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Simon or Giles, do you have anything to add?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I suspect that the property portal will suddenly tell us that information, if it is collected. I also wanted to ask about deposits. At the moment, deposits are held in a deposit protection scheme. The deliberation as to whether or not it has been fairly withheld is done privately, and the only recourse is to appeal in the courts, which is quite a high burden. Is there a better way that some of those deposits could be handled? Could they be covered by the ombudsperson, or should there be a process whereby deposit disputes at least have to published? We do not even know the outcomes of deposit disputes at the moment.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So deposit complaints should be included in the property portal?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Simon?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Can I ask for your views on the Government’s intention to delay the abolition of section 21 pending court reform? You are all litigators. Is that necessary, given the present state of play? What do you think the delay might entail? What reforms would be required in order to ensure that the courts were meeting the standard that the Government are settingQ ?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Short answers are fine.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q We heard evidence this morning that suggested that the courts are currently overwhelmed and that the abolition of section 21 would increase contested cases. That is not your assessment?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q The Government dropped 111 pages of amendments on us on Tuesday evening, which is not particularly good practice—I will put that on the record—so you may not have had a chance to look through them, but if you have, do you have any thoughts about whether they address some of the deficiencies in the Bill that we and others have highlighted? My reading of the decent homes standard amendment is that it does most of what we want it to do; my reading of the “No DSS” amendment is that it does not. I wonder if you could flesh out a couple of the amendments that have been introduced and whether they do what is needed.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Maybe I could invite you all to share any further thoughts you have down the line.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
If you do, please write to the entire Committee.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
I want to pick up on the point about delays in the court process. We heard this morning that the president of the Law Society is concerned about the lack of access to legal aid and the fact that, because so many people are unable to access it, they will be disadvantaged in the court process. My first question is, what are your thoughts on that?Q
My second question is about clause 18 and local authorities no longer having a duty to help people when they have been made homeless. Shelter has said that the Bill does not specify when help to prevent homelessness should be available to private renters. Do you have a view on that and how it could be addressed?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I have three questions, if we can squeeze them in—I will get in as many as I can. Do tenants have enough power to enforce the measures in this Bill via rent repayment orders, and if not, where might we seek to reasonably apply them where they do not apply as the Bill is currently drafted?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
I suppose it was about their application—I think Mr Mullings has answered on whether they should be expanded in principle.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Can I ask about the portal? At the moment it is a broad framework of powers, and we think that there are requirements that should be woven into it. I am thinking, for example, of all the preconditions and requirements surrounding section 21 that will fall away. Do you think there should be other information as a condition in that portal that goes much further, such as previous applications for grounds of possession, or even rent levels under previous tenancies? How much information should be transparent and available to tenants, in your view, on the portal?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q I want to ask your views on the amendment to ground 14 on antisocial behaviour. What safeguards do you think would need to be incorporated to ensure that, for example, that does not lead to vulnerable people—people with mental health problems, or those experiencing domestic violence and so forth—being at risk?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thanks for that, Liz. We heard evidence this morning to suggest the contrary, as some build-to-let landlords were having to evict six or seven properties because of one that was causing antisocial behaviour. I guess that the whole thread through this Bill is about creating a system that is fair and balanced. Do you think that it is fair that a landlord would have to put up with a tenant creating antisocial behaviour and would potentially have to move other tenants on because they could not get that tenant out through the court process?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I thank our three witnesses: Simon Mullings, co-chair of the Housing Law Practitioners Association, Giles Peaker of Anthony Gold solicitors, and Liz Taylor KC of Garden Court chambers. Thank you all very much for giving us the benefit of your wisdom.
Examination of Witness
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We will now have a series of quick evidence sessions of 15 minutes each with a series of learned witnesses, the first of whom is Ben Leonard, senior remote organiser and policy and research officer at ACORN, the union. Mr Leonard, will you introduce yourself?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q As a tenants’ union, you are in a unique position to give us some insight into the broad question of whether the Bill strikes the right balance between the interests of landlords and tenants. Can we open with that?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you for your evidence. How do you think the Bill will improve the experience for tenants? We have discussed section 21. Do you think that abolishing section 21 will give tenants more confidence in going for new rental agreements?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q That is what the Bill is trying to do. It is trying to prevent bad landlords, but bad tenants as well. One thing we are planning to introduce is a decent homes standard in the private rented sector. Is that something that you would welcome?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I have a few points, if I may. You mentioned that the property portal needs to be available to tenants, but their access to it is not explicit in the Bill. Is it your view that it should be available to tenants or to the wider public?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q The power of public pressure and the market might be more than the courts’ in that case. You have raised some of the fears about loopholes in grounds 1 and 1A. What protections could be put into 1 and 1A to make them work? Should there be a payment or other form of redress to the tenant if they are being evicted for no cause whatsoever?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q The second part was about whether there should be some sort of recompense for tenants who are moving out, even if it is legitimate that they are moving out, through no fault of their own.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q To explore that final point you made about not charging rent having issued a notice to vacate, when someone has gone through that process, for a landlord that would mean two months of not getting rent from the property plus three months when the property could not be let again through one of the section 8 grounds. In the event that the landlord was intending to sell the property, but was unable to sell it and had to go back to market to re-let it, they will have gone five months without rent. Do you think that is fair? I appreciate that we would both agree that we want to stop bad landlords, but for a good landlord who wanted to sell their property but was unable to, is that fair, to be in the situation where they have five months’ rent withheld?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q I want to ask you about the decision not to proceed with the proposal in the “A fairer private rented sector” White Paper on limiting the amount of rent that the landlord can ask for in advance. Is that an experience you found with the people you work with? You talked about frequent moves being very inconvenient, as well as extremely expensive.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Very quickly, Minister.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q I appreciate the evidence that you have given today. Do you have any concerns that some of the measures that you are talking about could potentially reduce the supply of homes? Therefore, the very people you want to protect, whom we all want to protect, tenants, would not be able to rent their homes.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Yes, if the Bill is too punitive.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Order. I am sorry. I feel I have to interrupt you, it being three o’clock. As Big Ben strikes, you have to stop speaking. I apologise for that. Mr Leonard, thank you very much for your evidence, which has been useful to the Committee and will be useful in the discussions that lie ahead.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We will now hear from Chloe Field.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you, Ms Field, for coming to give evidence to us. I have two related questions, which are quite broad, to get us into the issue. Do you think the Bill as it stands takes sufficient account of the particular needs of every aspect of the student market, which is not uniform? There are different people starting courses at different dates and people renting different types of houses. Do you think it takes account of that? Then, specifically on the Government amendment that was tabled on Tuesday for a new mandatory ground for possession for student houses in multiple occupation, do you have any concerns about that? How workable do you think that is?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q The Government have tabled an amendment that would create a ground 4A, which is what you were just talking about there. Have you had time to look at that and do you think it is tightly or too broadly drafted? Are there particular things, such as requiring accommodations to be rented by the university or something, that might give that level of protection, rather than it just being that there happen to be students in that house?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q A lot of the reforms in this Bill will advantage people who are in the property for a long period of time. They will be able to enforce their in-tenancy rent controls better, and will hopefully be able to take the landlord to task if it is not a decent home. When someone is there for only a year or two years, or whatever the time period is, that is much harder. Do you think there are things that should be put in the Bill to ensure speedy enforcement in some of these areas and the ability for students to seek redress?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
I have another question, but I do not want to hog all the questioning.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
No, you have another two minutes.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q At the moment, the student market seems to be moving towards a place where people have to choose their accommodation up to nine months before they move into it. Some people have welcomed that, but it does not seem to work very well for students. Does moving to a situation where the properties will not become available on the open market, apart from two months before the start, actually help or hinder students in selecting their accommodation without having to have done it months in advance?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So you think there should be some restrictions on universities?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I would like to go back to ground 4A being proposed by the Government. It makes it a very binary choice between there being students in the accommodation or no students in the accommodation. You have mentioned that many students live in mixed accommodation. Is there sometimes an advantage for students in being able to extend contracts when they become no longer a student to actually provide stability in local communities that are often saturated anyway?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Finally—we have a few more minutes—on Tuesday we heard that the two-month notice, meaning that someone can give notice and then move out within two months basically on the first day, could be bad for students because sometimes they do not get on with their flatmates. But when you force them together for two months, they then suck it up and get on with it. Is that a fair description of what happens, or would you describe it in a different way—that ability to move out if something has gone wrong very quickly?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Thank you very much for your evidence. That was Chloe Field, the vice-president for higher education for the National Union of Students. Very useful indeed, thank you.
Examination of Witnesses
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
May I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Before we go on, are you linked to the Nationwide Building Society?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
The reason I ask that is: are you personally based in Swindon or Wiltshire?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Swindon—fine. In that case, you are not a constituent of mine. Had you been, I would have been extra nice to you.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Surely not!
We have 45 minutes for this panel.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I have two questions, the first of which relates to standards. The Government have tabled an amendment introducing a version of the decent homes standard. I wondered what your thoughts were on that and, importantly, on the ability of local authorities to enforce it. I am thinking of part 3 of the Bill, which will put a general duty on local authorities in a number of areas. If we introduce the decent homes standard in the way that the Government have proposed, will it materially improve residences, and will local authorities be able to enforce it effectively?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Sorry, but what is HHSRS?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Do I take it from your answers that it is partly a resourcing point, but it is not just resourcing; it is the skills and capacity?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q On a completely different issue, we have spent a lot of time discussing chapter 1 of part 1—reforms to the tenancy structure, grounds for possession and so on—and relatively less on part 2, the ombudsman and the portal. Could you give us your general views on what the Bill does, on whether it is prescriptive enough and on what either or both of those things should look like in practice?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I think we have moved on. Let’s crack on with the Minister.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you, everyone, for your evidence so far.
Roz, do you think the portal addresses the problems that you see in the shadow rented sector, in so far as it brings it into the light by making people aware of where those landlords are, highlighting their bad practices?
Samantha, I am very interested in the assessments that the foundation has done in Scotland. What big lessons have been learned from them which could inform how we shape this Bill?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Yes, I think so, but also where this Bill is lacking and how we could strengthen it, based on your evidence from Scotland.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Is there anything in the Scotland reforms that you are pleased that we are not replicating?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Also, forgive me—I cannot remember which panellist mentioned Jacky Peacock earlier on, but she talked about this idea of an MOT in order to access the portal. Each of the panellists has mentioned that local authorities have struggled for resource. How would an MOT help? Who would verify such an MOT? I suppose, if we were to go down that route, it would mean local authorities facing even more burdens.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q The market is fragmented. Lots of rented property is owned by people who only have between one and four properties. Those people are essentially unprofessional, even if they are willing. I am worried about how they might slip through the gaps because, if they are not using a letting agent or a management service, they may be unaware of changes to the law or of how to register. How do you think we should address that so that landlords know what they need to do? How can we ensure that tenants know that they have access to this information and the right to challenge? I doubt some of those people are following what is going on in this Committee.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
To clarify, I do not mean that they are deliberately unprofessional. I just mean that they may not be on top of all the legislative changes.
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Sam, I was interested in what you were saying about maggots falling out of cracked ceilings. I was a councillor for a long time and a cabinet member responsible for public protection. That included environmental health. I was regularly shocked by how often tenants lived in such dreadful conditions until someone said, “You should report that to environmental health,” and then there would be a notice to improve. Surely there are protections now, but tenants do not know about the Environmental Protection Act 1990 or the Housing Act. This Bill will strengthen things like that, but what can we do to improve people’s knowledge of the fact that they can still go to environmental health to get their housing sorted?Q
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Q Do you think that that will change under this?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q Can we go back to the issue of illegal evictions? Roz, you said that there is a lack of data in that area, which is absolutely right. Your organisation, probably more than almost any other, has a wealth of anecdotal information about what is happening. What can you tell us about the trends and characteristics? Is there any sense that some people pursue that route because of the problems in the court system? We have had quite a lot of discussion—other witnesses may have a view on this—about the proposed delay because of the problems in the court system, and some witnesses were very clear that there are no justifications for delay. What does your experience tell us about that, and what have you picked up about the reasons for such evictions?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q We have spoken a lot about data and the portal in this session. How do you think we can use that data to judge the effectiveness of the reforms? Going back to our discussion about lessons learnt, in 10 years’ time we will need look back on this and are, “Where were the improvements that we could have made differently?” How do you think we can use the data to help to shape that thinking?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
As there are no further questions from colleagues, I thank our three witnesses for their evidence: Samantha Stewart, chief executive of Nationwide; Linda Cobb, services manager for DASH; and Roz Spencer, director of Safer Renting.
Examination of Witness
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We theoretically have until 4.15 pm, but it is unlikely that we will use all that time. If we finish earlier, we can all go off and have a cup of tea. Mr Munro, could you introduce yourself for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I have two quick questions. The National Residential Landlords Association has called for the selective licensing of landlords to be abolished. Do you think it falls away if the portal operates in a particular way, or will elements of selective licensing still need to be in place to augment the portal if the local area in question chooses that? I am thinking of space standards and other things that the portal might not necessarily cater to.
Secondly, is the Bill missing something by not incorporating any regulation of property agents? Are we missing an opportunity to incorporate the recommendations set out by Lord Best’s working group in or alongside this legislation in some form?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q I am interested in your view on the principle of blanket bans and the measures we are taking in the Bill to stop them.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q It seems difficult to enforce blanket bans. Is there any way forward in which these bits of information are not disclosed and cannot be asked about in any form, directly or indirectly, until after a tenancy has been verbally agreed?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q On standing enforcement, a lot of local authorities use the selective licensing resource to help to pay for their enforcement. Is there an argument—perhaps the opposite argument from the one made by my colleague—that the property portal could allow the roll-out of selective licensing more freely in all places where there is then, in effect, a small charge for enforcement?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q We touched on rent repayment orders previously, where tenants are motivated to take their own enforcement because they could receive their own rent. Could those offer an option to relieve local authorities from having to enforce some of the more minor cases and allow them to focus on the most egregious breaches?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Do you think the property portal might provide an opportunity not just for information holding, but for information dissemination?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Some of us push very hard for citizenship lessons and wider lessons like that in schools, but that is another debate. You might not know about this, but when the deposit protection scheme was rolled out, there was a big information campaign with local authorities and with charities and non-governmental organisations to inform tenants about their ability to get rent repayment orders if deposits were not secured. That seems to me to work very well. Do you have any views on and learnings from that process?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q I just want to go back to that point. Earlier, I used the word “unprofessional”. What I meant was amateur rather than negligent or wilfully reckless. There are a lot of accidental landlords out there—I am talking about people who do not use a letting agent. They will need to be aware of their responsibilities under this legislation. Who do you think is the right person to manage the information campaign to ensure that they are aware? Is that the local authority? Is it the charitable sector? Who should be ensuring that landlords are aware of their responsibilities under this new legislation?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
As colleagues have no further questions, I would like to thank you very much indeed, Mr Munro, for giving evidence to the Committee. Your words will stay with us as we consider the Bill line by line, starting from next week.