Renters (Reform) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 14 November 2023.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Welcome to you all. Our proceedings are now public. We have to go through some formalities; we will then invite members of the public into the Committee Room, so we will be truly in public at that stage.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and will be circulated by email to Committee members.
Examination of Witnesses
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Welcome to the first evidence session of the Renters (Reform) Bill Committee. In particular, I welcome our first panel: Polly Neate, chief executive of Shelter; Dame Clare Moriarty, chief executive officer of Citizens Advice; and Darren Baxter, the principal policy adviser on housing and land for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. Let me say in passing, so that we are all aware, that the first panel has to end by 10.10 am.
Polly is online. Polly, if I ignore you, can you please make yourself known by waving at me or something? It is rather hard to communicate online sometimes, so if I am not calling you to say something, please let me know plainly.
Perhaps it would be helpful if the witnesses introduced themselves for the record.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Before I forget, let me ask members of the Committee whether they have any interests to declare. I am not sure whether the Chairman has to do so, but I own two buy-to-lets, not that that particularly matters.
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
I declare an interest in that I receive support, in particular as set out in my entry under category 2(a) on the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, from individuals with an interest in this area.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
I am a joint owner of a property that is let out for residential rent.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
I am also the joint owner of a property that is let out for rent.
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
I am an owner of a property let out for commercial rent.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Hansard has got all that, I hope.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
As per my entry on the register of interests, I receive some support from campaigning organisations that support my office and that campaign on this issue; and I have lodgers at my house.
Anna Firth (Conservative, Southend West)
Can I declare that I am also the joint owner of two properties that are let out, but are held in trust?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
Dean Russell (Conservative, Watford)
I do not know whether I need to declare this, but I rent, so I am not a homeowner. Hopefully, that means that I have a particular interest in this.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I think we all do, in one place or another, but that is probably not an interest to declare: it costs you money, rather than getting you any money.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
I am also a vice-president of the LGA.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
There being no further interests to declare, we will crack on with the evidence. I call the shadow Minister.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Gray.Q
I will start with section 21. This was the Government’s manifesto commitment and is in many ways the centrepiece of the legislation, but clause 67 of the Bill has always given Ministers discretion as to when the system is introduced. A two-stage transition has been advertised, but the Government have recently made it clear that they will not abolish section 21 until unspecified court reforms are in place. Could you give us your views on those? Specifically, have the Government been clear enough about what they mean by court reforms? What are the criteria by which improvements will be judged?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I should say at this stage that it is not necessary for all witnesses to answer all questions. Just answer those questions that you feel particularly interested in.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to our witnesses for giving evidence. I have two questions. First, how do you think the blanket bans will work to level the playing field for renters? Secondly, what is your opinion of the impact that these reforms may have on private rented sector supply?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Before we go on, may I reiterate that we will finish at 10.10 am precisely, even if someone is mid-sentence? Questions and answers should both be brief and to the point.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
The abolition of no-fault eviction will mean that there are other grounds for possession. Can I ask whether you consider that the wording of the Bill is sufficient to ensure that the grounds that exist will not lead, in some instances, to de facto no-fault evictions? In particular, can you tell us your views of the exceptions in relation to antisocial behaviourQ ? Are the measures robust enough to deal with such behaviour, as well as making sure that people are not evicted wrongly on those grounds?
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Building on what Mr Baxter was just saying and what Ms Neate said in her first comments, Shelter says Q that it has seen a huge rise in section 21 no-fault evictions over the past year or so. Is there a particular reason given by tenants for their evictions? Are you seeing a trend that is being used at this moment on section 21?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
If you can dig out that data and let the Committee have it formally, that will be very helpful.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q We have been talking about economic evictions. Currently, if someone approaches the rent tribunal, it can determine whether a rent goes up or down. Citizens Advice and Shelter are particularly likely to support tenants who go to that rent tribunal. Is there a danger that people will not want to risk it?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So you are saying that the Bill will create an atmosphere in which people will not need to take cases to the tribunal, because these things will be resolved before between tenant and landlord?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q There is a six-month protection from eviction with a new tenancy, but beyond that no other protections are afforded to people in terms of evictions. Should that be linked to rent rises, so that every time a rent rises, the six-month protection for no-fault eviction is restarted?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q How long should it be?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Should people be able to see the previous rents in that property through the property portal? Should tenants who are now in the property be able to say, “How much did the last tenants pay?”
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Should this information be public, or is it that before you sign the contract you should have access to the check so that you can quality-assure your landlord? I am trying to work out the levels. Are we saying that all this information should be out in the ether, or is there some sort of system that you are thinking about?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q Given that somebody is being evicted every 23 minutes through a section 21 no-fault eviction, should there be a timescale to abolish no-fault evictions? Would a clear timescale be helpful, particularly to the people concerned?
My second point is about prevention. What more needs to happen regarding the duties of local authorities and councils to people who are not evicted, given some of the current holes in the Bill?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q Building on the point about local authorities and their responsibilities to people who have been evicted, they are currently reporting intense pressure on their budgets because of the escalating number of people who have been evicted and made homeless. Could you build on what you would like to see in the Bill to protect those people? Do you think that ending no-fault evictions more rapidly would assist local authorities in managing the financial pressures of those homeless people?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Returning to possession grounds, concerns have been raised about new grounds 1, 1A and 6A and the changes to existing ground 14. I want to ask the witnesses a question about the new ground for possession 8A, which concerns repeated rent arrears. Do you think that that new ground is needed in any form, or should it be removed from the Bill? If it is to stay in the Bill, what changes might strengthen it to better protect tenants?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We have two minutes left. Who can do this in two minutes? Polly.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
And the others?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
That brings us to the end of our first panel of the morning. I thank Polly Neate, the chief executive of Shelter; Dame Clare Moriarty, chief executive officer of Citizens Advice; and Darren Baxter, principal policy adviser on housing and land for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. Thank you all very much for giving evidence to the Committee; it will be extremely useful and will be borne in mind during the Committee sittings that lie ahead of us.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
May I welcome our second panel of witnesses? For the record and for Hansard, can I ask you to introduce yourselves?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We have until precisely 10.55, at which stage we will call the session to order even if you are mid-sentence, so please be aware of the time.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q We asked the previous three witnesses a variety of questions and touched on the issue of supply. I want to ask these witnesses about that. Mr Beadle, I was intrigued to read the transcript of an industry webinar earlier this year, in which you said:
“Actually the truth is that while some landlords are leaving the sector, this sector is actually still increasing. That’s not terribly helpful to our argument, to be honest with you. But in the context of cost of living and rising costs we have to tell that story and link the two.”
Is it not the case that all the evidence would suggest that the sector is relatively stable, at about 20% of households, over recent years, and that it may even have grown, and that there is no evidence to suggest that we will see, as some claim, an exodus of landlords from the sector?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q May I turn to court improvements? We have discussed how the abolition of section 21 is now linked to them. Non-accelerated possessions are not taking significantly longer than the relevant guidelines stipulate, and possession claims are, in relative terms, one of the faster and better administered parts of the criminal justice system. Is that not the case? While we want the courts system to improve, possession cases are not the worst example of the state that the courts system is in. What improvements are you pressing for and telling the Government are required before chapter 1 of part 1 is introduced?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Very specifically, you have had access to No. 10. What are the x, y and z that you are going in and saying need to be in place before chapter 1 of part 1 can be introduced? What are the specific metrics, if you like, of court improvement that you are pressing for?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to members of the panel. You heard comments from the previous panel on antisocial behaviour. What do you think of the changes that the Government are introducing to the antisocial behaviour grounds? Do they strike the right balance, and ensure that landlords can evict tenants that cause significant disruption? Timothy, you mentioned students. Do you agree that the new possession ground for student landlords will be effective in supporting the operation of the student market?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Ben, you propose six months on both sides, but you seem to be suggesting that a student or someone would maliciously come in for a month, and then say, “I’m off.” Is it not the case that people look at the house and say, “This isn’t working for me. The house isn’t quite what I thought it was, or what I thought was advertised.” Perhaps it is very cold at night and expensive to heat. I am not saying that these are enforcement matters for the local authority; they are just things that would lead normal people to say, “I want out of this.” Also, people’s circumstances may change. Why should they, or their guarantor, be stuck with having to pay the bill for six months, when the accommodation might not be appropriate? Surely the best way of getting the market to improve its standards is to have the ability for someone to walk in, realise it is not a very good property, and walk out again.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Because the landlord has the power, and is renting the product out. The consumer is assessing whether they find that product useful. They have a very different relationship to the product, don’t they?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
We know that the Government have abandoned the EPC.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Order. Mr Russell-Moyle, we are asking questions, not having an argument.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Usually it is a dialogue, but anyway—
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
No, we do not want a dialogue. I am the Chair. We ask questions; witnesses answer questions. We take evidence. The arguments come later in Committee.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
I am just trying to tease this out.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
No, let us not tease anything out. Mr Douglas.
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q First, the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee has called for the creation of housing courts. I would like to know the panel’s opinion on that. Secondly, the new ombudsman does not cover letting agents at the moment. Again, I would like the panel’s assessment of that.
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
I did ask about housing courts.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q Theresa floated the idea of longer-term tenancies, which would provide security for landlords because they would know how long their tenant would be in there. Do you think that there would be significant uptake on those from renters given that the proposed solution—periodic tenancies—would give them as long as they wanted provided that there was not a reason for the landlord to evict them? Do you think that would provide the extra security that they need?
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Q Just to clarify, would you not allow the landlord to serve any of those types of no-fault evictions after six months?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I am interested in this. Are you saying that in the fixed period, the landlord would not be able to execute any eviction grounds, or just not grounds 1, 1A and 1B?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So 1 and 1A are basically the only protections. Is there a danger that this will become the default tenancy and landlords will not offer periodic tenancies, or would you require them to have an option and they would have to advertise both?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I asked this question of the last panel. Putting aside whether the six months is on both landlords and renters or one or the other, should there be a protection every time a rent increases that that six-month protection restarts, or it is the case that you can never get the protection back once the six months is done?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q In most assured shorthold tenancies at the moment, when you redo rent, you sign a new contract that then gives someone a six to 12-month protection. What we are now saying is, because it is rolling, that rent increase will just be within the rolling contract, so you are not then given the extended protection.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Yes. If we can get that, yes. [Laughter.]
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Ah, okay.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Unless there are any further questions from colleagues, I thank our three witnesses for their evidence, which will be very useful to the Committee in the deliberations that lie ahead.
I will ask the last set of witnesses to take the stand as soon as possible, without too much further delay, but just before our next panel, I ask Dean Russell to make a wee declaration of interests.
Dean Russell (Conservative, Watford)
Thank you, Chair. I just want to declare that my wife works part time at an estate agent that also does lettings.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Mr Gray, I should also have said that I sit on the legal working group for a radical housing co-operative association.
Gagan Mohindra (Conservative, South West Hertfordshire)
What is the radical bit about?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
That is its title; I did not choose it.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I am delighted to welcome our next panel to give evidence to us on this important Bill. Perhaps I could ask you both to introduce yourselves.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q With your leave, Mr Gray, I would like to ask each of the witnesses a separate question, if possible. First, to Paul on local authority capacity, the White Paper committed the Government to conducting a new burdens assessment into the reform proposals, assessing their impact on local government specifically and, where necessary, fully funding the additional cost of the new burdens placed on local councils. There is nothing on the face of the Bill or in the explanatory notes to that end. Could you set out your concerns about what the Bill does in terms of the new duties and new requirements placed on local authorities? Do they presently have the capacity for that? If not, what assurances do you need to seek from the Government?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We need to remain within the terms of the Bill.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Richard, on the landlord redress scheme, we have just had a discussion about whether the Bill is prescriptive enough on how the ombudsman would operate. I am taking it as a given that there will be one ombudsman, of whatever form—I know you have views on that. The Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to create an ombudsman, but it does not commit them to—it is a “may”, not a “must” power. If the ombudsman is set up, do you think the Bill needs to be more prescriptive about what the Government believe that ombudsman should do?
Specifically, in clause 29, there is a requirement to set out guidance on how the ombudsman redress scheme would work alongside local authorities, so that they have complementary but separate roles. What do you think that memorandum of understanding, as I suspect it will be, needs to look like? How do those roles not overlap in a way that duplicates duties?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to the panellists. Richard, what do you feel is currently working well in social housing redress that we need to ensure we bring over to the PRS?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q There is currently a system of selective licensing that some local authorities can do, but they have quite a high threshold of burden to demonstrate it and it requires the sign-off of the Secretary of State. Do you see the potential for allowing local authorities to remove those burdens and introduce selective licensing without Secretary of State sign-off, because of course the information will already be there in the portal?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
You could do ward by ward.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Thank you very much.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
Q That all sounds quite exciting, Paul, in terms of your being able to apply your finite resource as effectively as possible. At the moment, if you have a complaint about a property, you do not know whether that landlord owns 10 other properties in your area, and we anticipate that the portal will allow you to do that. Do you not see this as an exciting opportunity, contrary to the negative spin that you put on it at the start, to be able to more effectively manage the properties you have?
If I remember correctly, you and I met at a social housing decarbonisation fund demonstrator. With your decarbonising hat on, surely now you could have the opportunity to be able to communicate directly with landlords. You do not know who they are or where they are at the moment. You would be able to communicate with them directly and say, “The Government have this scheme. We can help you improve and replace your boiler,” and so on. There is no end of benefits, yet you seem to focus only on the negatives. Why is that?
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
You certainly did in your opening comments. It was all doom and gloom.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
But this helps you improve the use of them.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Order. Mr Hughes, we are asking questions; witnesses are giving evidence. We are not arguing.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
I am sorry, Mr Gray—no hectoring.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Richard, you are ready and willing to take on the ombudsperson duties in the Bill. At the moment there are myriad redress schemes for deposits in the private rented sector. You never know the outcomes of them because they are all kept secret. There is no case law built up, so you could have one redress scheme coming to a very different conclusion to the next redress scheme. The only way tenants can deal with that is by going to the courts directly. Do you think that the ombudsperson’s purview should be extended to include a right of appeal for the deposit redress schemes?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Perfect; thank you. We will await that.
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q The Government have confirmed that section 21 will not be abolished until the courts are reformed. What is your assessment of that? I will start with Mayor Paul and then move on to you, Richard, because you touched upon that.
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q The Select Committee advocated for specialist housing courts. What is your assessment of that? Would it help matters?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I want to ask a niche question about local authority investigatory and enforcement powers; I hope I explain myself clearly enough for you to understand. There is the issue we have discussed about the new duties and responsibilities in the Bill, which, assuming they are sufficiently resourced and supported, should work well, and which we support.
The White Paper also committed the Government to exploring and bolstering local authority enforcement to tackle a wider range of standards breaches. That is not in the Bill. We have a commitment in the King’s Speech, as one of three areas for the Government to bring forward amendments to make it easier for councils to target enforcement action and arm them with further enforcement powers. Could you speculate on what we might expect the Government to bring forward in that area? What would you like to see? Should we seek to weave into the Bill the more expansive measures outlined in the White Paper?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Does the ombudsperson have the right to initiate? You talked about seeing a pattern of behaviour, rather than waiting for the complaint to come to you. Do you have the right to initiate at the moment? I know that other ombudspeople do.Q
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Would it be useful?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Unless there are any more questions from colleagues on either side, I will thank the two witnesses on our final panel: Paul Dennett, the Mayor of Salford and member of the Local Government Association’s local infrastructure net zero board, and Richard Blakeway, the housing ombudsman for the Housing Ombudsman Service. Thank you both very much for your evidence.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear evidence from Ben Twomey, director of Generation Rent, and Sue James, chair of the Renters’ Reform Coalition. For this panel, we have until 2.30 pm. Can the witnesses please introduce themselves?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
Thank you very much.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Thank you to the witnesses for coming to give evidence to us. I want to start off with possession grounds. We have heard from the Government, and from a number of the witnesses this morning, about the need to strike the right balance between the interests of landlords and the interests of tenants. What are your views on the new and revised possession grounds in that regard, and specifically the ones we have heard some concerns about: grounds 1, 1A, 6, 7, 8A and 14Q38 ?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you to the witnesses. You have mentioned aspects of the Bill that need to be strengthened; what aspects do you welcome or think of as helpful? How do you think the private rented sector supply might be impacted by the reforms?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
I will ask two different questions, then. I will ask Sue about the delay that the Government propose with the courts. Earlier, we heard from the housing ombudsperson that he is willing to cover all of this, if the Government agreed, and that he could step in with transitional measures immediately on Royal Assent, so he was unclear about why there would need to be a delay on the abolition of section 21. Perhaps you could tell us why that is the case.Q
With Ben, I would like to probe no-fault evictions, which are very expensive for the person who is not at fault. They have to pay for removal costs, a new deposit and, very often, a month’s rent up front, which is very difficult for people. Are there any ways that could be ameliorated when it is no fault and the tenancy is being curtailed early, within two months?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Does the amendment to ground 14, the ground for possession for antisocial behaviour, strike the right balance? Or is this potentially another backroom approach to no-fault evictionsQ ?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Thank you.
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
What are your views on the property portal that is being proposedQ ?
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Good.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q As we have you here and you have unique access to residents and organisations that represent residents, I wonder whether I could push you on some areas that are not covered in the Bill. Some of them were flagged in the White Paper and some were not, but they are a problem for renters every day—at least on the basis of my postbag—and we might deal with them in the Bill. I am thinking of things like guarantors, advanced rent and bidding wars, which we are hearing a lot about at the moment, particularly in the part of London that I represent. Could you speak about some of the potential solutions that we might look to work into the Bill?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
I call Helen Morgan. This will have to be the last question, I am afraid.
Helen Morgan (Liberal Democrat, North Shropshire)
Briefly, you mentioned the possibility of the attractiveness of longer-term tenancies without the six-month break point at which you can be evicted. Will you expand on that?Q
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted to the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witnesses, on behalf of the Committee.
Examination of Witness
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Francesca Albanese, director of policy and social change for Crisis. We have only until 2.45 pm for this panel, so please can we have short questions and shorter answers? Please can the witness introduce herself for the record?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q Does the abolition of shorthold tenancies with section 21 no-fault evictions give the protection that renters need? Is that sufficient?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q It does seem very vague. We in this room are all seemingly, according to that definition, capable of “causing anti-social behaviour”. On section 21, the Government are kicking the can down the road at the moment, and are talking about reforming the justice and court system. What is your assessment of that?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q I would be grateful for your views on abolishing fixed-term tenancies.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Yes.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Would you say that the reforms we are making give renters more confidence when looking to take out a new tenancy?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q The Government said in the King’s Speech that they wanted to bring forward amendments to prevent what is often called “No DSS” discrimination—“no benefits” discrimination. First, what are your thoughts on how that could be done effectively? Secondly, many people scrabble around to find a rent that is within local housing allowance, only to find that it goes above local housing allowance within a year. Should that be taken into account in the rent tribunal process to ensure that rents that were within local housing allowance remain within local housing allowance, so that people are not economically evicted?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
If there are no further questions from Members, I would like to thank our witness for her evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Ian Fletcher, director of real estate policy for the British Property Federation. We have until 3 o’clock for this panel. Could you introduce yourself for the record, please?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you for attending, Mr Fletcher. I want to ask you about build to rent. In terms of supply, build to rent is mainly catering to—let’s say—the top half of the market, rather than meeting mainstream supply. What do you think the impact of this Bill will be on the build-to-rent sector?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q You mentioned the decent homes standard. Could you elaborate on your thoughts on that?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
When the Bill was first presented, the British Property Federation indicated some concerns about the relationship between a minimum tenancy period and the growth of the short lets sector and that this might be an additional boost to it, and I just wonder where that came from. What is your evidence for that? Indeed, have you conducted an analysis of the growth of short lets, the factors driving that and the connection between this and the legislative frameworkQ ?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q I appreciate that that is your view. Is it actually based on research that you have done, or on an evidence base, or is this mostly anecdotal? Do you have other ideas as to how the different sectors might be able to bear down on that problem, particularly the illegal element of it?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Sorry to gently push you, but I ask again: is your view based on an actual report or evidence base, or is this anecdotal?
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
I have visited probably only four build-to-rent sites, but it feels to me that you are pitching slightly above the median. It also feels to me that, exactly as you described, the quality of the product is pretty good and therefore the opportunity for there being any mis-selling of what you are getting feels more limited than in the rest of the market, where I have seen egregious cases of people being mis-sold something.Q
It feels to me that it is likely that your tenants will stay and all the people who I have spoken to who provide this type of accommodation give me the feeling that the type of people that you are attracting and the type of property you are offering means that people do not walk in and walk back out again very quickly. I would imagine that lots of your tenancies last considerably—when I say “lots”, I mean that a very significant percentage of your tenancies last over a year.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
I loved it.
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
Very.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q In some of the evidence to the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee, Grainger, a buy-to-let house builder, suggested that the triple-lock approach should be applied, whereby landlords are restricted so that they cannot raise rents by more than the lower of consumer price inflation or CPI, wage inflation or 5%. That was Grainger’s official position at the time.
I wonder whether you would support an idea that there should be some sort of matrix that prevents landlords from increasing rents above a certain level—that was nationally known, as it were, and that could be published by the Secretary of State, so that everyone had some security about what that ceiling is.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q What is the context?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Would you be against the idea of a nationally set ceiling?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So are you opposed to the Government’s proposed ceiling on market rents?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q The British Property Federation has said:
“The abolition of no-fault evictions needs to happen in tandem with…court reform.”
What indicator explicitly do you think should be hit for court reform to be sufficiently achieved?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Twenty-two weeks is for what, sorry?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q We have heard that within that period the court’s part is actually relatively strict; the bailiff’s part is the particular problem. Are you saying that it is the bailiff’s part that needs reform?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
If there are no further questions from Members, I would like to thank the witness for his evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Kate Henderson, chief executive of the National Housing Federation. We have until 3.15 pm for this panel. Please you introduce yourself for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you, Kate, for coming to give evidence. You are absolutely right: the Bill does have implications for social housing providers in a number of areas—tenancy reform and others. Could you speak to whether you think that the Bill strikes the right balance when it comes to those changes, first in general terms and then, specifically, on grounds for possession? The NHF has made the case for changes in a number of areas—for example, ground 1B to include transfer to another tenant as well as sale. Could you give us a sense as to why you think that those changes are required?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I think that you implied there that you might send us further evidence, but could you touch briefly on the rent increases point that you made earlier? I think that it was the first of your areas for clarification.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q We spoke to the housing ombudsman earlier. I am interested in your reflections on the social housing ombudsman, the creation of the new private rented sector ombudsman and what lessons can be learned.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q Apart from probationary tenancies, most social housing tenants have secure tenancies. You will be aware of the Bill’s amendments to ground 14 on antisocial behaviour. Given the experience of dealing with antisocial behaviour with secure tenancies, can any lessons be learned from the work that you do in the social sector?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Ground 14A relates to the situation in which a social landlord wishes to evict the perpetrator of domestic abuse, where the partner has fled. Very often, it requires the partner, not the perpetrator, to leave. Is the wording sufficient, or should there be some wording to allow possession even if the partner has not fled, and reallocate it to the partner? Very often the tenancy is in the name of the perpetrator.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q That would be much appreciated, so that we can get the right balance.
On ground 6, you said that you would quite like the ability for redevelopment. We know that there have been some very controversial repossessions over a state redevelopment that local authorities and housing associations have been part of. Tenants have often liked the security of knowing that they cannot just be given a few months’ notice, that they have to go through a process, and that they have the ability in the end to say, “No, this is my home.” Would giving that ability strike a balance that is not in favour of the tenant?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
So that is where an assured tenancy is being offered.
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q Is there anything else that should be in the Bill, or anything that concerns you about the Bill?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
If there are no further questions from members, let me thank the witness for her evidence and let us move on to the next panel.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
Good afternoon. We will now hear oral evidence from Henry Dawson from the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health. For this panel, we have until 3.30 pm. Will you please introduce yourself for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. Could I ask you about the decent homes standard? In what is, I must say, a very welcome move—we have been very clear about that—the Government have made it clear that they intend to require private rented homes to meet the decent homes standard, and have committed to bringing forward legislation, in their words, “at the earliest opportunity” to see that enacted.
I suppose I would like to probe what you think the consequences are if that legislation takes some years to deliver. How does the delay bear on the other reforms that this Bill enacts? How might we use the Bill to tie into that other legislative process? How does this Bill need to relate, if at all, to that forthcoming legislative decent homes standard for the PRS?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q It would be interesting to know your thoughts on the portal, and on how we can make the most use of it to support councils in taking enforcement measures.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q Can I go back to the decent homes issue? The repair and maintenance of properties is central to the issue of the security of tenants who are seeking to enforce their rights, and who sometimes have landlords act against them. How do you see the decent homes standard being enforced? How do you see the decent homes standard interacting with other overlapping measures and standards in law, and the tools available to environmental health officers?
May I also ask a question about enforcement, which is central to this issue? As we know, the enforcement record is very patchy in local government. In your view, why is that?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q You touched on your experience in Wales. We are aware that there are similar, but not necessarily identical, reforms in Wales. What lessons can we learn from the reforms implemented there?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Can I ask about the proposed property portal? Of course, some of the enforcement must be through local authorities, as you have just been talking about, but earlier we heard about the idea that, by using the property portal, tenants themselves could seek enforcement. The proposal was that, if a landlord has not met certain standards required for registration on the property portal, there would be rent repayment orders, so that the person who has been harmed is the person who benefits. What is your view, first, on the use of a property portal as a repository of all the information and, secondly, on the ability for tenants to take action rather than having to wait for the local authority?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q You suggested two things there. The first was that the period that applies to grounds 1 and 1A should be more than three months—perhaps six months to a year—to enable your enforcement.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
The second was that there needs to be some sort of amendment to allow you to give advice to and support tenants through the rent repayment order process.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
That needs an agreement between you, the portal and the housing ombudsperson.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witness for his evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Dr Julie Rugg, senior research fellow at the Centre for Housing Policy at the University of York, and from Professor Ken Gibb, professor in housing economics at the University of Glasgow, who joins us via video link. We have until 4 pm for this panel. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you both, and good afternoon. Given your extensive expertise in this area, could I ask a general question about whether the Bill strikes the right balance between the interests of landlords and the interests of tenants? I would like your thoughts specifically on the grounds for possession, linking the abolition of section 21 to “court improvements” unspecified, and other things that might, in your opinion, be missing from the Bill.
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you both. First, could you clarify your initial points? What effect do you think the reforms we are proposing would have on supply in the private rented sector? On a different tangent, what are your views on how we should strengthen councils’ enforcement powers to crack down on criminal landlords?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q Julie, your report from a few years ago was helpful in encouraging people to think about the private rented sector not as a homogeneous whole, but as having different markets within it. Given what you said, and with the Government—rightly, in my view—going ahead with abolishing section 21, I wonder what you think the impact will be on the different markets. What are the warnings there that you have just given us, in particular on the most vulnerable, at the lower end of the market? What safeguards could be introduced to ensure an adequate supply of decent accommodation for people entering the different layers of the market?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Dr Rugg, I want to follow up on the maladministration of universal credit, and some of the difficulties that landlords have had since the introduction of universal credit and the local housing allowance going from 50% to 30% and now probably to sub-20%, because of the cuts. We know that possession grounds 8 and 8A are about the failure to pay rent and about rent arrears. There are some weak protections around universal credit in that, but they are non-discretionary grounds in a court, so do you feel that that goes far enough to build the relationship that you were describing between landlord, universal credit and tenant, or could more be done in the legislation?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Should those two grounds be discretionary or mandatory, bearing in mind that often, through dialogue and discussion, a different outcome could be sought?
Mike Amesbury (Labour, Weaver Vale)
Q Would the proposed single private sector ombudsman provide sufficient and efficient redress for renters?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
If there are no further questions, I would like to thank both the witnesses very much for their evidence.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Fiona Rutherford, chief executive of JUSTICE, and Professor Christopher Hodges OBE, emeritus professor of justice systems at the centre for socio-legal studies at the University of Oxford. We have until 4.30 pm for this panel. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Thank you both for coming to give evidence. As you know, the Government have now explicitly tied the enactment of chapter 1 of part 1 of this Bill to the court reforms, and the concern is that the nature of those reforms is unspecified. To what extent do you think the court system, as it applies to matters in this Bill, needs improving? I ask that because the county court system is working relatively well vis-à-vis other parts of the criminal justice system; the guidelines are being met and the then Minister extolled the significant improvements that have been made in recent years.
To the extent that the system still needs to be improved, what is your understanding of what the metrics are? My reading of the Government’s response to the Select Committee, what is in the White Paper and what was in the King’s Speech briefing notes is that there is a whole set of different metrics—end-to-end digitalisation, new digital processes, bailiffs and so on. How are we to know, because the concern is obviously that the abolition of section 21 could be years away, if we have court improvements that are undefined or are large in scope?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you, Professor Hodges, for your in-depth explanation of the benefits of the ombudsman. I wonder, Fiona, whether you have reflections on the ombudsman, particularly on some of the things that Christopher has just mentioned about how we get people to engage in the process and to engage in mediation and settling early, rather than getting lost in the court system.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Your comments there just provoked a thought. It might be too early to tell, but are there any lessons about signposting from the Social Housing (Regulation) Act 2023? We had the issue with that legislation, which we touched on earlier with Richard Blakeway, the ombudsman, about what the regulator can now do, which is to look at systemic things but also dip into cases. You have the ombudsman taking cases but has a view on the systemic side, so there is a potential conflict of interest. I think the Government are trying to get around that by saying to tenants, “Here’s where you go for each particular type of problem,” or “This is when you might go to the courts.” Are there any lessons from that, or anywhere else, where signposting has worked well, so that we can try, on the basis of this Bill, to send tenants to the right place in the first instance?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Just the one route?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q The amount that the ombudsperson can award is currently capped. Should the cap should exist, and if so, should it be fixed at £25,000, or should it be linked to another, more sensible amount, bearing in mind that that is a year’s rent on some properties?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So are you saying that for local authority enforcement, it should be easier for them to effectively de-list or bar someone on the property portal from re-renting that property?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So the property portal should be accessible for you to see that detail of it—potentially in public generally, or for the potential tenant?
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
Elaborating on that point, would you do that based on a landlord or based on the property itself? Would there not be a danger of evasion through the property group being put in someone else’s name, or using a different landlord, to escape that enforcementQ ?
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
Q I am just thinking that in terms of the aviation sector, which you gave the example of, it is very difficult to evade that—but I wonder whether in practice, with what you are describing, that would be easy to get around.
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
Q Then you have a different problem: if you sanction by property, the property essentially gets blacklisted. How do you switch that if it genuinely does change ownership?
Ben Spencer (Conservative, Runnymede and Weybridge)
Q Then you would need a separate database of people who are registered landlords.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Briefly on the breaches and penalties, how extensively do you think rent repayment orders should run through the Bill as a back-up? I am talking about the clause 9 and 10 breaches and the ombudsman portal registration breaches. Do you think we should have a much wider inclusion of rent repayment orders—probably as a final resort; we do not want to throw all the onus on tenants—as another deterrent?
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
If there are no further questions, I thank both witnesses for their evidence.
Examination of Witness
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from James Prestwich, the director of policy and external affairs at the Chartered Institute of Housing. We have until 4.45 pm for this panel. Welcome, James. Could you please introduce yourself?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q James, I will ask you this because I have seen you sitting at the back listening to all the other evidence, and you may well have seen what we did this morning. This is a very open question: after all that you have heard today, is there anything you want to highlight that we have not covered? Do you want to generally give us your views on what is good in the Bill, or what its defects and deficiencies are? I might come back with a further question about that.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Very quickly, specifically on ground 8A, which we discussed this morning, what is the view of the CIH on whether it should be removed from or remain in the Bill? If it should remain in the Bill, should it be made discretionary? Should it be tightened? What is your view on that new ground for possession?
Jacob Young (Conservative, Redcar)
Q Thank you, James; it is great credit to you for sticking through a lot of this. I thank the other witnesses who stayed and listened to some of the other responses. Obviously, a lot of these changes aim to professionalise the sector. I am keen to understand from your perspective what you see as the opportunities presented by the portal and how they can support landlords to better understand their responsibilities.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q You said that the two-month period seemed quite short, and four months might be preferable. We heard earlier about the cost of moving, as well as the difficulty. Where there are no-fault grounds, is there an argument that there should be some payment to the tenant? Alternatively, as Generation Rent suggested, once the no-fault eviction has been ordered, should no rent effectively be paid for those two months so that a tenant can leave at any time or can use that time to save up?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
That sounds a little inconclusive.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
You are saying you think work needs to be done but you are not quite sure of the solution yet.
Yvonne Fovargue (Labour, Makerfield)
If there are no further questions, I thank all the witnesses for the time and expertise that they have given with their evidence.