Victims and Prisoners Bill
Public Bill Committee, 22 June 2023.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We are now sitting in public and proceedings are being broadcast. I call the Government Whip to move a motion to amend the programme order agreed on Tuesday. The purpose of the motion is to enable us to hear from a witness who was unable to give evidence on Tuesday because of technical difficulties.
Examination of Witnesses
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Right Rev. James Jones, chair of the Hillsborough Independent Panel, and Ken Sutton, who was adviser to the panel. I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme order that the Committee has agreed to. I welcome our witnesses and invite them to make a brief opening statement.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Mr Sutton, would you like to say anything?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
It is good to see you, Mr Sutton, and the Right Rev. James Jones; you were my constituent when you were Bishop of Liverpool, and we have had dealings over many years through our work on Hillsborough. It is good to see you bothQ164 . The Hillsborough Independent Panel was set up in 2010 and completed its work by 2012. It did a fantastic job of looking through many documents and setting out the truth that families had been searching for since 1989. Bishop, why was the panel able to do what numerous legal proceedings over the years appeared to fail to do? What was it about how you went about your work that meant that it was successful in difficult circumstances?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Did the panel have particular powers that ensured that the job could be done while maintaining the trust of the families, who of course, after 21 years, were disinclined to trust public authorities and investigations because so many of them previously had not come through with the facts?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Bishop James, you have said on record that you support the establishment of an independent public advocate. What would that person or persons do that would add to what happens in the aftermath of a disaster, which is that there are inquiries, possibly public ones, inquests if there have been fatalities, and possibly ongoing legal cases thereafter? What would the establishment of an independent public advocate add to that landscape?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q You have said that there should be a standing advocate, but do you have a view about who should call on the advocate to get involved in any particular circumstances? Should it be the standing advocate themselves? Should it be done only if the families ask for it? Or should the Secretary of State perhaps be the person to decide? Do you have a view about that?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q So independence is very important to the way in which you see these things. You will have had a chance to look at the Bill and its proposals. Do you think that Bill provides enough independence?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Are there powers or other roles that you think the advocate should have, apart from those you have already set out? For example, the Hillsborough Independent Panel had the power of data control, and could collect and look after all the information, which you duly did, before it was published. Do you recall that some of the Hillsborough families could be cynical about whether things were going to be revealed—until they were—because of the use of freedom of information, and because the Government could avoid handing out certain documents, which would give rise to suspicions about what was being held back? In the circumstances of Hillsborough, after many years, there were a lot of suspicions. Do you think that the independent public advocate has a role—and if so, what—in ensuring that those suspicions do not arise?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Do you think that the independent public advocate should have the power to appoint a panel like the Hillsborough Independent Panel to try to do the job that the panel did, which was to get at the truth, albeit many years later?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Could I just interrupt for a moment? We do not have a lot of time and we have quite long answers. Does anybody else want to ask a question? Would you mind if I interrupt, because I want to get other people in? Sir Oliver Heald and then Sarah Champion. Please can we have short answers?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
It is made clear in the Bill that the work of the independent public advocate is not to carry on a legal activity, but in the inquest that followed your work, it was clear that the inquest had learned a lot from what you had done, and made sure the witnesses were able to put forward their case. What would you like to say about the difference between the lawyer representing the families and the role of the independent public advocate in supporting them, and how the two mesh togetherQ ?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I think we got there. Oliver, do you want to ask one more?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
No, that was the point I wanted to get at. Thank you.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Thank you both very much for the evidence you have given. It has clarified in my mind what an independent public advocate is. Do you both feel that part 2 meets the objective that you think should be at the core of the role, or does it need work?Q
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
No, because it is not in front of me. Do you think that the Bill would get you the independence that you want, and give the families a voice?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Thank you very much.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Good morning. Do you think that the duty of candour should be extended to include public servants, so that they have to proactively tell the truth? Shall we start with you, Bishop?Q
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
It is not, but it could be included, so it is important to get your perspective. Ken?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Thank you very much.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
This may be my misunderstanding, but I want to ask about the argument for having a standing independent public advocate rather than somebody brought in to respond to a specific incident. I understand why you would want a standing IPA—if they are primed and ready, they can respond with more speed—but there is merit in having somebody dedicated to a particular incident, especially in awful circumstances where there are a number of different national incidents all at once.Q
Is it the proposal that a standing IPA would basically step aside once the specific IPA got involved? How do you see it all working in practice? That is what I cannot get my head around.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
It is basically doubling up.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Bishop?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Q Does either witness want to make any last comments?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Mr Sutton?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much for speaking so clearly to us on a very difficult subject. We are very grateful.
Examination of Witness
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Lord Wills, welcome. You have been promoting a Bill in the House of Lords to establish a public advocate since 2014, I think. What are the differences between your Bill and the one that this Committee is scrutinising? Do you think that the current draft will achieve any of the aims that you were seeking to achieve with your Bill?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q You have said that the families should have agency and that transparency is important. Are things missing from the current draft that, if they were included, would improve matters and bring it a bit closer to the view you formed when drafting your own Bill?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q You were a Justice Minister when the Hillsborough independent panel was established, and you had to grapple with some of the issues about how it would work. My understanding is that that experience led you to believe that wider reform was needed. What lessons from your experience of helping to establish the parameters of the Hillsborough independent panel were reflected in your Bill? What gaps in how other disasters have been dealt with was your Bill designed to plug? What can we do to this Bill to make sure it does that wider job?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Thank you.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Lord Wills, do you agree with the idea of having a standing appointment rather than an appointment for a particular incident? Could you also explain how you see the independent public advocate? Is it an impartial person, as described by Ken Sutton, about the panel? What sort of person would it be in terms of qualifications and skills? Do you agree that this person should not be able to take part in legal activity? In other words, if they were at an inquest they would be there as an interested person but represented by a separate lawyer. Do you want to comment on that?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q If there were a following inquest, it is proposed that the independent public advocate would be an interested party but would not be able to carry on legal activity himself or herself; they would be represented. Do you agree with that?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Thank you very much.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Good afternoon, Lord Wills. We last met when you spoke to the Justice Committee, of which I am a member. Do you believe that the independent public advocate should have the ability to access all data, communications, documents and other information to avoid future cover-ups? If so, do you think that the Bill achieves that?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q You mentioned this point, and want to press you a little further. The Bill would require the Secretary of State to publish a copy of the report made by the independent public advocate in whatever manner they considered appropriate. What do you think about that measure, specifically the part about what they consider appropriate?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Lord Wills, thank you for all the work you have done in this field. I want to build on Janet’s point. You have repeated that the Bill gives the Secretary of State unfettered powers. On re-reading part 2, it strikes me that it does not say very much at all about the powers that the independent advocate would have. What would you like to see in the Bill?Q
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much for your evidence, Lord Wills. That concludes this session.
Examination of Witnesses
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Our next witnesses are Nick Hurd, the independent adviser to the Prime Minister on Grenfell, and Tim Suter, a solicitor at the Manchester Arena inquiry and the Hillsborough inquest. Welcome, Nick; you are appearing via Zoom. Who wants to lead off the questions? Is it Maria again?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
I am happy to, but I do not wish to monopolise.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
No, let’s hear from—
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
The expert.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you, Chair. Thank you for appearing, Mr Hurd and Mr Suter. Mr Hurd, will you set out what problems you came across in your role as adviser to the Prime Minister on Grenfell? As a former Minister and in that role, you must have had a lot of contact with families affected by disaster. In those roles, what has your experience been of the main problems in the aftermath of a terrible public disaster like that, which affects so many people, and what should we do to address them?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you. I will come to you in a minute, Mr Suter, because your role was slightly different. Mr Hurd, what do you think about transparency? Grenfell has not lasted 34 years like Hillsborough did, but time has passed and there is still a feeling that a lot is not known about what went on, inquiries are still ongoing and there has not been a definitive outcome. Do you feel that the independent public advocate as proposed in the Bill—or a version of that advocate if the proposals are amended—could offer something positive to stop the lack of trust and prevent families from feeling excluded, “done to” and that they are not being told the truth, which often happens in the aftermath of disasters?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you. Mr Suter, you have acted as solicitor to the Manchester Arena inquiry and have had professional involvement in the aftermath of a number of disasters. Do you have any general observations about the proposal for an independent public advocate? Given your experience, would it be helpful in your professional opinion?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q You might not have read the details of the Bill, but if you have, do you have a view about whether the current draft would do that job? If you have concerns about it, do you have any views, given your experience, about what the Bill ought to say in order to make a difference?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Having a standing appointment or an office would mean that you could have speedy action. I was asking the previous witnesses whether they thought the role should be an impartial one, as the Hillsborough panel inquiry was. What sort of skills and qualifications should the person have? Do you agree that that person should not be able to undertake legal activity? For example, at an inquest, they would be an interested party and could be represented, but they would not be doing the representation themselves.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I should say, we do not have much time.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
I have just one more question, Chair, which will be very quick. Please go on, Mr Hurd.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q So you would not be in favour of clause 28.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Can I just ask you one final question, if there is time? One of the impressions I have had is that the Hillsborough Independent Panel report and the way it conducted its business affected the way in which the consequent and subsequent inquest was conducted. I know that Lord Goldring, who chaired that, went to great efforts to hear the voices of the victims and families. Would you agree with that? Do you think that, in fact, it has changed the nature of inquests of this sort?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q That was Dame Heather Hallett, wasn’t it?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We have three more people. We have Janet Daby, then Sarah Champion, then Jess Phillips.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Good afternoon. My questions are about legal aid, and whether it should be extended as non means-tested legal aid to all cases where there are mass fatalities and where public bodies are potentially at fault. I am interested in your opinion on that. Can we start with you, Tim?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Thank you, Tim. Would you agree on that, Nick, in terms of equality of arms and as a matter of right?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q I have a further question on the area of duty of candour. Do you believe that should be extended to public servants so that they must proactively tell the truth? Can I start with you, Nick?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Wonderful. Tim?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q So you are saying that the independent advocate should have the right to have access to the information, but the information should be held within the public body. Is that what you are saying?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I had better go to Jess now, because she has not had a question, and then Sarah.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I want to focus in on the trust that both of you have in the idea of the Secretary of State appointing the public advocate. It would be lovely to hear in this Committee some evidence from the victims commissioner; the Secretary of State is responsible for putting them in place, but they have not done so. Similarly, we have not had a human trafficking commissioner —from the Home Office—for more than a year. So do you have any concerns about the role of the Secretary of State in appointing this person—even if it is done at pace in certain cases?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q On the point that you made, Tim, about the person being a lawyer—as my colleague, Maria Eagle, pointed out, all the lawyers nodded—I am just wondering. I am somebody who has been a victim advocate who got to the truth my entire career and I do not have a law degree. Do you think that there is also potentially some need for special expertise in how to deal with, specifically, bereaved people and people who have suffered terrible abuses? I am thinking of big national disasters such as child abuse in children’s homes or something like that, where there is a big state actor. Do you think that there is potential for other skills to be important in that?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q A quick clarification—which Act is the 2005 Act that you referred to?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Got it. You mentioned under-18s. In clause 27, under-18s are mentioned twice. Subsection (4) refers to the advocate providing “support” to such persons, but subsection (5) says they “may not represent” such persons. What is the distinction between the two and why do you say the Bill does not go far enough?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q So what would you like to see?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q In terms of both getting to the truth and getting closure for those involved, how does having their representation help with that?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
If there are no further questions, that concludes this evidence session. Thank you very much, gentlemen.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear evidence from Ruth Davison, chief executive of Refuge, and from Ellen Miller, interim CEO of SafeLives. Ms Miller, thank you very much for coming; I know there was a problem on Tuesday, so thank you for coming in person.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q We do not have very long, so I will be as brief as possible.
First and foremost I suppose, could you could give a brief assessment of whether you think what is currently in the Bill will make a big difference to the victims that you support—victims of domestic violence and, in lots of cases, sexual violence?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q On that specific point, do you think it would be important to put explicitly in the Bill that the victims code and all the rights that come with it should apply to anybody even if they do not report?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
To pick up on that point, do you think that they need to also be enforceable with victims of domestic abuse going through the family court?Q
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Ellen—now we can finally hear you.Q
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Oh, I will.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
On the independent domestic violence adviser and independent sexual violence adviser clauses in the Bill, SafeLives is obviously the organisation that at one time, called Caada—Co-ordinated Action Against Domestic Abuse—was the absolute pioneer of the IDVA position. There has been quite a lot of discussion against the idea that the definition of an IDVA and ISVA is the be-all and end-all.Q
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q Ellen, you talk about having teeth, but what does that look like? We have seen suggestions that police officers have their pay docked, for example, if they do not enforce the code. What do you mean by that? What does enforcement look like?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you for what you are bringing to the table, and for what you do in your daily lives. Ruth, you spoke about the event at the beginning of the week with some of your service users. In the Bill, the victims code compels each criminal justice body to take reasonable steps to promote awareness. Is that enough?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q It is usually the police who are the frontline staff that people go to first. Do they know about the victims code?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q I have two very quick questions, if I may, Chair. I am grateful that the Minister has tabled amendments around counselling notes. You were talking about the chilling effect of not having the firewall. I do not know if you have seen the Minister’s amendments, but why should it not be automatic that counselling notes are used or accessed by police?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Thank you.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We have to finish exactly on time—it is in the programme motion.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q I can do that. Very briefly, Ruth—because I am really interested in this—you are not suggesting that there should be a ban on disclosure, but that it should be a judge’s decision. Is that right?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Very short answer.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Ruth, you mentioned a culturally-specific disadvantage there already. What would you like to see in the Bill regarding cultural sensitivity and culturally-specific—
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Very quick answer.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Order. Thank you very much for taking the trouble to come in person. I know you have come a long way, but it is a lot better when people come in person. Thank you so much.
Examination of Witness
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We are now sitting in public again, and the proceedings are being broadcast. We now hear oral evidence from Jenni Hicks, a Hillsborough justice campaigner. Good afternoon, and thank you for coming. Do you want to say anything briefly at the start or do you just want to take questions?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Q212 Yes—tell us about your story.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I am afraid we only have half an hour. Why don’t we just take questions—then perhaps you can add some points. Is that all right?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Who should they be accountable toQ ?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
We cannot have a dialogue here.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We are very grateful to you—this is a very moving testimony and you have had the most appalling experience—but we cannot have a general conversation; we have to have set questions. Can I now ask Maria Miller to ask her questions?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
That’s all right—we quite understand.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Sorry—Maria Eagle. I do not know why; I was thinking of someone else.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
It is fine. I have been called some names in my time—usually Angela.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
It is quite a moving afternoon, so it is difficult to concentrate.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Absolutely. May I begin by thanking Jenni Hicks for coming today? I will just say to the Committee that she is my constituent. She was one of the first people who came to see me when I was elected in 1997, and here we still are, trying to sort things out.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
I am just making it clear that I do know the witness.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Jenni, you have set out your appalling experience, and I know that you could say a lot more about what has happened over the years. If an independent public advocate had been in place at the time of Hillsborough, what difference might that have made to your experience as a family?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Am I right in thinking that, from an early stage with Hillsborough, the legal proceedings became very adversarial and the public authorities started trying to blame anybody else but themselves, which in this instance was your relatives and the survivors of the disaster?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q What impact did that have on you as a bereaved family member? What impact did that have on the other families?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q You fought over so many years against almost impossible odds and you have made progress. However, with the public authorities over the years and the court cases that have happened, have you ever felt supported as family members? One of the things about a public advocate is that they can provide some support to families. Was that anything that you got in your early experience following the disaster?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q So you felt on your own.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally from me, Jenni, because I am sure colleagues will want to ask questions, do you think it is important that families caught up in this way in future disasters have some kind of capacity to have an impact and have agency, and can get an independent public advocate involved—if one is there, if the statute passes—and get somebody involved who is seen as on their side and can help them?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Thank you.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Thank you for coming today and sharing your experiences. I know how painful that will have been. I was at the University of Sheffield at the time of the Hillsborough disaster and one of my friends also died in that tragedy. I recognise very much from what you are saying the experience that other friends and families had at that time. I pay huge tribute to you for the massive amount of work that you have done to try to make sure there is justice for the families and friends of those who were bereaved. Thank you for everything you have doneQ .
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q What sort of person do you think the independent public advocate should be to avoid that injustice being repeated? Is there a type of person you have in mind? For example, should it be a lawyer or a different type of person who has had different types of experience, so that you and people in the future would get the support they really needed?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q So you welcome the idea of having a panel of people with different skills and different experiences, so that everybody is able to contribute together.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Do you think there is also a role for the families of those who were bereaved at Hillsborough in helping to shape the more precise definition of what the independent public advocate should do and the way they do it, because tragically you have a unique experience?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Ms Eagle asked you how you think an independent public advocate would have helped you and the other families who were bereaved at Hillsborough. You talked a little bit about getting access to the papers that were involved.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Could you say a little about what you felt you really needed at the time, in those early days and those early years, and where an independent public advocate might have helped you and could potentially help others in future?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
You have made those points incredibly powerfully. Thank you.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Two quick questions from me. First of all, can I just say thank you so much for coming and sharing your experiences? I am so deeply sorry for what you and so many others have gone through.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q How soon do you think an independent advocate needs to be in place when there has been one of these major disasters?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
One of the examples that we heard from earlier witnesses was that they have a series of people who are on stand-by, so they could literally come in immediately.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Is that something that you would think is a good idea?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Why is that important?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q I really hope that it is not inappropriate to ask my next question. My hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mrs Lewell-Buck) has put down an amendment because some of her constituents died in the Manchester Arena attack. Because they were children, the families have not been able to register the deaths—the coroner has. Is it important for families to be able to register the deaths of their loved ones?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Why is that important?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Obviously, the second inquest with Sir John Goldring in charge was after the report by Bishop James Jones and his team. Did you feel that the second inquest was better conducted and gave more of a chance for the victims and their families to express their case? Do you think that that was because of the report that had been doneQ ?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q The lawyer this morning, who has been involved in a lot of these inquests, said he feels there has been a change in the way in which inquests are dealt with for these major incidents and that there is now more emphasis on hearing the voices of the victims’ families and so on. Do you agree with that?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q I just want to pay tribute to your campaign.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Thank you very much for coming here, being so honest and speaking really deeply on this awful tragedy. I want to ask you about a duty of candour. We heard this morning from witnesses about honesty, and you have talked about the honesty that is needed. Do you have an opinion, or do you want to say anything, on ensuring that there is a duty of candour on public servants, the Government and the public sector in taking part in this?Q
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Don’t worry about that.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much, Mrs Hicks. We salute your courage. Thank you for coming.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will now hear from Kimia Zabihyan of Grenfell Next of Kin. I think we are having some technical problems with Dr Stuart Murray, so we have just one witness for this quarter of an hour session.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you for coming along. I realise that there are lots of other places you could be, so we are very grateful that you have come along to give us your evidence. Could you tell us a little about your story and how you have been affected by what happened at Grenfell?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Over that period of time, you will have engaged with many, if not all, of the bereaved families, I imagine. Could you explain to the Committee your sense of what the first few years in this process have been like for those families? What would the value of an independent public advocate have been, if one had been in place at the time this happened? What would have been the value of having that role available to the families in the immediate aftermath of the disaster?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Do you think it is important that if there is a public advocate—if this legislation goes through, suitably amended until everybody thinks it is perfect and what is needed—the families affected have some agency and the public advocate can create transparency, or do you think it is more important to signpost to other services at an early stage?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Do you think that the current proposal sets out a public advocate who is independent enough, or would you like to see it more independent of the Minister than in the current draft? At the moment, the Minister can appoint, set terms of reference, arrange remuneration and dismiss.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally from me, what powers do you think the independent public advocate, as you envisage it, should have to be able effectively to do the job that you see it doing?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Thank you.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
What are your thoughts on the definitions in the Bill for victims, major incidents, harm and serious harm? I do not know if you have read the BillQ .
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
On that point—
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Order. I am sorry, but we have to stick to the programme motion, according to the rules of the House. I am given no flexibility. We have to end your evidence there, but we are very grateful.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Our next witness is Sophie Cartwright KC, a solicitor at Deans Court Chambers.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Good afternoon, Sophie. Do you believe, regarding the Bill, that legal aid should be non-means-tested, especially in cases involving a major incident and there is a public institution or office involved?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Thank you. Do you agree with the proposed functions of the independent public advocate as set out in the Bill?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q How do you think those delays could be avoided? Would you see the independent public advocate sitting under the Secretary of State or in a different body completely?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Thank you for talking to us this afternoon. You said that there are almost different ways that the function of the IPA could be conducted and you have highlighted that it is not a legal role.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
I am not sure whether you heard the evidence from previous witnesses, but Jenni Hicks of the Hillsborough campaign in particular was talking about a panel of support, with people who have different skills and different experiences. What do you think are the roles that are most important to the function of a successful IPA?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Are you not arguing, essentially, that there does need to be a panel of people with a range of skills? To come back a little bit on your criticism—if I can put it that way—of the possibility of delay, is it not the case that each individual situation will need specific qualities and the specific skills of individual people? It is inevitable that it will need a little bit of time to find the right people to deal with the right incident. None the less, if we know of a pool of suitably qualified and experienced people who are ready to serve, that would be ideal.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q I do not know whether you managed to hear Lord Michael Wills’s evidence from earlier today. He had a private Member’s Bill in the House of Lords in 2014 to introduce an IPA. He envisaged it, in part, as something that the families could call upon so that they felt that they had agency and there was something they could do at the early stages that would stop them just feeling like everything was being done to them and they had no role. But he also envisaged a role of ensuring transparency. For example, he envisaged his version being able to establish a Hillsborough Independent Panel-like arrangement, to gather in documents and give an account of the truth of what happened. Do you see that that might be a function that the independent public advocate could usefully pursue, if the Bill were amended to enable it?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Drawing on your own experience in relation to the Manchester Arena bombing, I am sure you will have had discussions with affected family members. Do you see anything in the Bill in respect of the independent public advocate as envisaged that would have assisted those people you have subsequently came across when dealing with the Manchester Arena bombing? Do you think that there is something in the Bill that would have made things easier for them to deal with the aftermath of that terrible experience?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q You have mentioned that there needs to be more clarity and purpose around the IPA. With that in mind, how long do you think an IPA should be involved following a major incident?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Do you have a view on the Bill’s definition of a major incident?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
Q Good afternoon, Ms Cartwright. Thank you very much for joining us. I have just one question, but I am more asking for your reflections than asking a specific question.
You alluded earlier to the interaction between an IPA, as envisaged in the Bill, and other judicial or investigatory processes, whether they were inquests or other public bodies performing their work in the aftermath of a major incident. There have been a number of calls for the IPA to be a data controller, so that it can access data. We heard this morning from another lawyer, Tim Suter, who argued that that would not be the best approach and that individual public bodies should remain the data controllers, but with the IPA being able to view or access the data in that way. Do you have any reflections on that point? Once a statutory public inquiry is set up, how would the interaction between the IPA and the inquiry work best? On the data controller point, I can see arguments from various perspectives, and I am interested in your reflections.
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
That is really useful. Thank you very much.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
If there are no further questions, I thank you very much for your testimony. We are very grateful.