Victims and Prisoners Bill
Public Bill Committee, 20 June 2023.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We are now sitting in public and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. First, it is very warm, even after the thunderstorm, so if people want to remove their jackets or cardigans, that is fine. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope we can get through these matters quickly, as I am sure we will.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
The Committee will therefore proceed to line-by-line consideration of the Bill on Tuesday 27 June at 9.25 am.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and will be circulated to Members by email.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We will now go into private session for a few moments to discuss lines of questioning.
Examination of Witness
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We are now sitting in public again and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witness, do any Members wish to make declarations of interests in connection with the Bill?
Elliot Colburn (Conservative, Carshalton and Wallington)
I am chair of the all-party parliamentary group on restorative justice.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
I would like to declare, in the interests of full transparency, that prior to my election I was a non-executive director of what was then Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service and a member of the Sentencing Council. I was also a magistrate for 12 years and previously a member of the independent monitoring board of HMP Young Offenders’ Institution Feltham. I hope that covers the full gambit.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
In that case, I should probably declare that I have run sexual violence services, domestic abuse services, female offender services, human trafficking services and sexual exploitation services, as well as being the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on children at the centre of the family court and the vice chair of the all-party parliamentary group on domestic abuse. I think that is it.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Thank you. I am happy to take declarations throughout proceedings if any Member thinks there is something they need to declare as we go through.
I welcome our first witness this morning, Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. We will now hear her oral evidence.
Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this session, we have until 9.55 am. Could I ask Nicole Jacobs to introduce herself for the record, please?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Thank you. Jess Phillips will ask the first question.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Hello, Nicole. Thank you for coming in. First and foremost, can we have your overall feeling about the Bill? What is your overall assessment of the Bill and how it will or will not move things forward for victims?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q How do you feel that the duty to collaborate in the Bill could be strengthened? You have said that it is a good base to start on. How do you feel that we could strengthen it as the Bill goes forward?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Would you say that the Bill needs to be amended to be specific about strategic needs assessments in the case of the duty to collaborate?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I have three more quick points. Do you feel that the Bill in any way protects victims outside our criminal justice system—in some of the instances you just mentioned, for example? This is a justice Bill. What about in the family courts?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Would you like to see something more specific in the Bill about support needed in the family court in cases of domestic violence?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q On IDVAs and ISVAs, there are specific clauses in the Bill with regard to independent domestic violence advisers and independent sexual violence advocates, as we used to call them—call the “A” whatever you want. There has been some pushback from the sector with regard to the need to define an IDVA and an ISVA, and that it forgets all the other community-based support—floating support, housing support and everything else—and that putting everything under an IDVA umbrella is a dangerous thing to do. What is your view on that?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Finally, you are an independent person, no doubt, but you work very closely alongside the Home Office, and I am sure that you have worked with the Ministry of Justice as well. What is your view of the sudden, last-minute—sorry, I should not put judgment into this. What is your view of the inclusion of part 3 of the draft Victims Bill in this Bill? As one of the nation’s leading victims’ advocates, were you aware that the Victims Bill was no longer going to be the Victims Bill and was going to be something else?Q
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
I have questions on two issues. The definition of victim in the Bill is quite broad in some ways. What do you make of that? Is that a good idea, because it wraps up categories of individual who previously would not have been included, or does it run the risk of widening the category so much that you have difficulty providing the core service that you were talking aboutQ ?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Do you think that there is any sort of risk to the core service from widening it out too much?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q In terms of the core service, you have described a set of skills and knowledge that is needed. I think you were saying, in effect, that for either of the roles—independent domestic violence adviser or sexual violence adviser—you would need those same skills. Do you want to amplify that and tell us a bit more about how you would see this profession or area of skills develop?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
You have three minutes left.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
I have some very quick questions, with hopefully very quick answers. On that particular point, is it more important to describe the skills or the job titleQ ?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. Under duty to collaborate, you spoke about a joint strategic needs assessment. I like that a lot. Who would the responsibility for that sit with? Would it be your role or the Secretary of State’s?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q But who has oversight at a national level? Who enforces the gaps?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q You said that 70% of the services are led by the voluntary sector. How do you compel them to fill the gaps?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q So if there is a dearth in Redditch, you would expect an organisation from, say, Peterborough to go and fill that gap?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q How could the Bill support migrant victims and survivors better?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Thank you.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witness, on behalf of the Committee, for giving evidence this morning.
Examination of Witnesses
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
There is a slight technical problem, so we will start with the witnesses who are here, and we will continue to try to get the other witness online as soon as possible.
We are now going to hear oral evidence from Jayne Butler, chief executive officer of Rape Crisis England and Wales; Dr Hannana Siddiqui, head of policy and research, Southall Black Sisters; and, if we manage to get the technology working, Ellen Miller, interim chief executive officer of SafeLives, via Zoom. Could the witnesses quickly introduce themselves for the record?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Lovely. We now have Ellen joining us as well. Ellen, could you introduce yourself, please? [Interruption.] Ah. We will carry on, and hopefully Ellen will be able to join us as time progresses. Can I ask Anna McMorrin to ask the first question, please?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Welcome, everybody. First, can I turn to Jayne Butler? Your report on what has changed since the Government’s end-to-end rape review, “The Rape Review—Two Years On”, has been published today. Do you think this Bill will tackle the historic low rates of rape prosecutionQ ?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Thank you. We are very pleased that you can join us.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Jayne, can you tell the Committee what you think the Bill will do to tackle the historic low rates of rape prosecutions? Can you set out what you have said in your report today?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q You have touched on several things there. Can you expand on the advice and support that are lacking as rape victims go through the process, and on what you would advise should be in that process?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Can you give a little more detail on independent legal advice for rape victims, and how you would see it working?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Just looking at the duty on specific authorities to collaborate with each other and commission victim support services, do you think that the duty will deliver a more effective service for victims of domestic abuse and serious sexual offences?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Should that duty include other victims of crime?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Just to give a sense of the duty to collaborate, what currently does not exist and what, I suppose, the ambition is for what will exist in the future, can you tell me—you do not have to have the exact data—how many of your members of Rape Crisis across the country have any funding from mental health services to run specialist trauma-based services for victims of rape?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I knew that was the answer; I just wanted to hear you say it. What about public health and sexual health services across the country?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Well, there is one.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q That is just to get a sense of what is currently not being commissioned.
Hannana, I will come on to you. My first question is: do you think that migrant victims of domestic abuse are currently included in the Bill?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Would a migrant victim on a student visa who has just been raped and beaten by her husband have the same access to the code as I would if it were to happen to me?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So in order for the statutory nature of the victims code in part 1 of the Bill to be able to be accessed by all victims in our country, regardless of their status, you would say that there needs to be a firewall that stops immigration enforcement being informed when somebody comes forward.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q More broadly, on the issue of ISVAs and IDVAs, as we discussed—I think you were here when Nicole was speaking—how do you feel about the Bill’s focus on IDVAs and ISVAs? How many IDVAs and ISVAs work in “by and for” services?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Ellen, can you hear me? I do not know whether I should make this declaration, but Ellen went to the same school as me. Ellen? Okay, I cede the floor if Ellen cannot hear me.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
If Ellen comes back online and we have time, I will bring you back in, Jess.
Elliot Colburn (Conservative, Carshalton and Wallington)
Q Dr Siddiqui, at the beginning of your evidence to Jess you mentioned that there was no mention or support and nothing included in the Bill for women with protected characteristics. I should declare an interest as a member of the Women and Equalities Committee. Can you expand a little more on what you mean by that, and on what you would like to see included in the Bill to better support women—black and minoritised women, LGBT+ women and so on—that is not currently included?
Elliot Colburn (Conservative, Carshalton and Wallington)
In the interest of time, I will cede the floor to my colleague.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. I have a couple of questions and the first is for Jayne. The Government have come forward with some guidelines on counselling records. Do you think they go far enough? What do you think could be in the Bill to strengthen the use of—or lack of use of—counselling records in such cases?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q What would you like to see?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Dr Siddiqui, you contradicted yourself a little when you talked about ISVAs and IDVAs, because you started saying that there should be a statutory definition, and then you said that there should not be. Could you clarify that?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q I look to the Minister at this point; I spent five years of my life trying to change positions of trust, because the definition of the people who came under it was accurate, but specifics about the type of people were not future-proofed and were too narrow. Would you rather see a definition that is future-proofed about the services that are delivered?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q I have a broad question, Dr Siddiqui. We heard from the Domestic Abuse Commissioner about the map she has done for services. Historically, support for black and minority victims has been very low. What could the Bill practically include that would address that, so that we have a more equal service for access to justice as well as support services?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q The victims code is good. We love it, and people need to know about it. What about in different languages and different formats? Is it accessible to everyone as it stands?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Dr Siddiqui, you just mentioned a total of £397 million specifically on the “by and for” sector. Do you have an estimate of the funding that would be required to achieve all the aims that you have described this morning and the places where you have said there needs to be additional funding?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
But you do not have—
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Ms Butler, you mentioned several times in your evidence that you wanted more funding for a variety of organisations. Do you have an estimate of how much that might cost?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Do you think we are talking tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even more?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q There has been a programme of multi-year funding for victim support services. For smaller service providers I think it is a minimum of £460 million over three years. Do you think that that is at least a step in the right direction and gives more certainty to some of the smaller service providers?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Briefly on another topic, in the victims code there is a requirement to make sure that people understand what is happening as they go through the criminal justice system. I mentioned at the beginning that I was a magistrate for 12 years. Do people really understand the court process when they appear as a witness or if they have to give evidence in any way, shape or form? Is there scope in the court service to do more to help? I am trying not to put words into people’s mouths.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Dr Siddiqui?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
I have a question for both of you. First, are there any additional rights that should be included in the victims code? Secondly, Jayne Butler, you mentioned the preventive side of things to prevent somebody becoming a rape victim, and work needs to be done there. You also mentioned the gaps; it would be interesting to hear about that. Finally, are there any obstacles or challenges in terms of therapy for rape victims? Anything that you could say about that would be really helpful.Q
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q Can you say how long the waiting list is for therapy?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Thank you. Ms Elliott, I should have declared that I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on children in police custody, and I sit on the Justice Committee.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
One of the worst parts of making changes in this place is the unintended consequences. Sometimes we do not scrutinise things enough and think them through. I am really interested in your comment, Dr Siddiqui, about having a complete firewall for migrant victims between the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice. What would be the potential unintended consequences of that policy? Where would you see potential abuses of it? I want to hear from the Minister on that as well, because it is important that we think it through.Q
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q How do you think removing the interaction with the Home Office would work if the victim has also committed a crime? We all know that there are a lot of chaotic lives and that there have been lots of problems—victims can be criminals, too. How do you see that working?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q May I push a little more on the siloing? You are not saying it is either/or: so if they were criminal, a criminal case could be going on for this person, but when looking at their domestic abuse, that would be protected. You could have the two things happening at the same time.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q But you are saying that if they came as a victim of crime, they would not necessarily share that with the Home Office.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q The Domestic Abuse Commissioner spoke very highly about specialist services and their outcomes. We are also talking about a proper geographical spread of services. Are there enough specialist services to fill the geographical need, and what would happen once we have identified gaps? Who would fill those gaps?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
Q I have a very brief question. I return to the point about funding, which you have both alluded to in different ways. Notwithstanding the very large funding increase—a quadrupling since 2010—you have both highlighted a gap between demand and supply, essentially, in this space. Although, funding and spending commitments should clearly not be made in individual Bills—that should be done in a public spending process in the round, because funding is finite and has to be set against other demands on the public purse—and without prejudice to your position on that, given that context do you see a potential value in the Domestic Abuse Commissioner’s point about a joint strategic needs assessment improving the efficacy of the existing funding spend and it being used in a less duplicative way, to plug gaps? Notwithstanding your position that you would like to see more funding, do you see a value in what the Domestic Abuse Commissioner is advocating—to better spend the money that is already allocated?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
Q To that point, since 2010 we have seen a quadrupling of funding for victim support services. Do you have any sense of what has happened to demand during that same 13-year period? If you do not, that is absolutely fine, because it is a detailed question; feel free to write subsequently if you want to. We are seeing a quadrupling across that period. What are we seeing with demand?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for this panel. I thank our witnesses, Dr Hannana Siddiqui and Jayne Butler, for answering questions in the room. I also place on record our thanks to Ellen Miller, who was on Zoom, intermittently without sound, and gave up her time this morning to try to give evidence.
Examination of Witness
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Could I ask you to introduce yourself for the Committee, Rachel?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We are very pleased you can be.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Rachel, do you believe that the duty to collaborate should include child victims of crime?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q We have seen part 3 come into the Bill at a late stage, so it includes victims and prisoners. In your view, does this detract from the main elements? Can you comment on what the prisoners element adds?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Tell me about child criminal exploitation. Do you think that should be on statute?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Do you think the services there are adequate for children?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Let us look at a specific type of abuse, fatal domestic abuse, and its impact on children. Fatal domestic abuse often follows coercive or violent abuse, and where there are children, it can result in the father retaining parental responsibility. Do you agree with that? The father was the perpetrator—I should clarify that. The father killed the mother.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Great. When men kill the mothers of their children, what in your view is their motivation for exercising parental responsibility after that?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We have less than eight minutes left and five Members are indicating that they wish to come in, so please keep questions brief.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q We have a distinct youth justice system. It has a different overarching aim from the adult system, a different police approach and different courts. Especially in the courts, there is a real focus on explanation in a way that young people can understand. Do you think that the victims code is suitably child friendly, both in its range and in its language?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Is there potentially a role for the Youth Justice Board and/or youth offending services in helping children who are victims?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Is there anything obvious that we are missing in the way we look after children who are victims?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Some of us tried.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Okay. I am going to interrupt you, if you do not mind, because I know that so many colleagues want to pick up. But thank you very much.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q You said that experience with the police can make children feel like they are criminals. What needs to be changed or amended in the Bill, or added to it, to address that?
Elliot Colburn (Conservative, Carshalton and Wallington)
Q Briefly, you said in relation to the duty to collaborate that there should also be a duty of accountability. Following on from my colleague Rob’s line of questioning about the distinct nature of youth justice and youth crime, who should be responsible for overseeing that duty of accountability? We heard from the Domestic Abuse Commissioner that it should be the Ministry of Justice, but in the case of children do you think that should be your office or another body, or should it be the MOJ?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Children of paedophiles really suffer adversely. Should they be regarded as victims in terms of the definition in the Bill, so that they can get the information and support services they need?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q I did some work on reducing parental conflict programmes. We know that even when there is simmering resentment and low-level arguing around children, it is problematic. What does the Bill do to improve services and checking in with children even when there is no direct harm? The child may not have been in the room when a parent was harmed, but we know it will still have an impact on them. How does the Bill improve those services—checking in, going through and making sure schools are involved?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank Rachel de Souza for her evidence this morning.
Examination of Witnesses
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Q We will now hear evidence from Dame Vera Baird, former Victims’ Commissioner for England and Wales, and Claire Waxman, Victims’ Commissioner for London. We have until 11.25 am for this part of the session. I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q May I start with you, Vera? Does the Bill cover all the definitions of victims?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Moving on to your former role as Victims’ Commissioner for England and Wales and looking at how this Bill is drafted, do you believe that it is important that a Victims’ Commissioner is included in drafting and revising the code?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Do you think the Bill gives the Victims’ Commissioner suitable powers to scrutinise the code, to work with Government on it, and to hold them to account?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q In terms of the collaboration set out in the Bill, do you believe the Victims’ Commissioner should be consulted by agencies on the strategy for collaboration in exercise of any victim support services?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Yes, the duty to collaborate in the Bill.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q In terms of oversight, do you think the Bill goes far enough in promoting the victims code?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Claire, what is your view of the Bill? Does it meet the ambition that it needs to?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q What is your opinion on the relatively late addition of part 3 on prisoners? How in your view does that affect the Bill?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Thank you. That is pretty strong.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Absolutely. Turning to the victims element, do you believe that victims of domestic abuse going through the family court should be defined within the Bill?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Finally, I have a quick question on the use of counselling notes for victims during trials. Can you talk to the fact that that is in use at the moment and how the Bill should address that?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Vera, may I invite you to comment on that issue?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q I have one tiny question on the proposed Jade’s law. Let us say that a man kills a woman and there are children involved. What is your opinion, Claire, of the man, if he has children, having parental responsibility?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
Q It is always nice to see you, Claire—we spoke previously—and Vera, it is lovely to see you again. It has been a little while since we last spoke. You are right: I think it was during your time, and during my last stint, that we started to look at some of these things with respect to the victims code, and even this.
I will ask a couple of questions if I may. One might be specifically for you, Vera, and I think the other will be broader. Adding to what you have already said, are there any other aspects of the role of Victims’ Commissioner, in the context of the legislation, that you would wish to see elevated? I know we used to talk about, for example, your report being put before Parliament and similar. There is a lot more here than that, but what other aspects would you wish to see elevated in terms of the role?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
Q Thank you. A very quick subsequent question to you both. I do not want to prejudge what, in due course, the Clerk may deem to be in scope or not of this Bill—whether Jane’s law or whatever—but on the basis that we have not had any such rulings yet, I am going to test my luck a little here.
One of the things you have both talked about is the need for people to be able to understand their rights, access them and know what they are, particularly in the context of the legal advice point for victims and complainants. I would be interested to hear both your perspectives. I know, Vera, that you ran a pilot programme on this up in Northumbria when you were PCC, which was done through you as the PCC. Were that to happen, what would be the right model for it? Would it be PCCs doing that, a national service or a regional service? To both of you: how do you think that might look were such a provision to be made, whether on a pilot basis and then extended or otherwise?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Order. We have 15 seconds left, so that brings us to the end of this morning’s allotted time for asking questions. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee for their evidence.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We are now sitting in public again, and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start, I am happy for people to take off jackets, cardigans or whatever; it is very hot today, particularly in this room.
We will now hear oral evidence from Caroline Henry, Emma Barnett and Sophie Linden. I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Thank you. I ask people to speak up, because the acoustics in this room are dreadful.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Hello all. I going to speak loudly, because it is quite hard to hear. The Bill obviously creates quite a lot of new responsibilities for police and crime commissioners. I want a little bit from each of you about how you see that operating in practiceQ74 .
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Specifically on data collection, the Bill outlines the new duty on PCCs to collect information. Do you believe it is worth outlining in the Bill the scope of such information to focus on reporting compliance with the victims code, for example, and making it easier to identify the data for the purpose of reporting?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Do you think that what is outlined in the Bill will allow the general public—the victims, in this instance—to get compliance with the victims code? Can you see that happening post Bill?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Yes—so currently would you have no powers if you didn’t get it?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I am sure the Minister will be thrilled.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Specifically on the duty to collaborate, to what extent is funding a concern for you?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q You are local representatives in your area. We heard this morning from Dame Vera Baird that she felt that the lack of antisocial behaviour being included in the Bill was problematic. I wonder if anyone would like to comment on whether antisocial behaviour should be included in the code.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Finally to Emma—it seems like a long time since I have seen you—
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Part 3 of the Bill seeks to increase the number of board members with law enforcement backgrounds, to give a different perspective of offenders. Will that help to strengthen public confidence in the Parole Board?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q In the case of domestic violence and sexual violence as it is in the Bill, will the duty to collaborate make that any different at the moment?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
The victims code is considered a positive thing—we all agree—but we heard from Dame Vera and Claire Waxman that, basically, 70% to 80% of victims who have been through the justice system did not even know that the victims code existed. I put it to you that that is an almighty collective failure of a lot of organisations. What do you think happened? Even if we managed to get our perfect Bill—if Jess and I and we all agreed, and we got our perfect Bill—nothing would change, unless things change on the ground. What has been happening that we are at the point that victims do not even know that a code existsQ ?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q But the victims are not going to read the Bill, so what needs to change? What has happened on the ground that means the code has not come in? Then tell me why the Bill will make a difference.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q The revised victims code sets out a duty for the Crown Prosecution Service to offer a meeting ahead of trial to certain victims. Do you think that that change will help with victim attrition, particularly in rape cases?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
TheQ original draft Victims Bill—the Justice Committee, of which I am a member, did some pre-legislative scrutiny of it—just had what is now part 1. There was no extra money involved; it was cost-neutral in that sense. We know now that there is at least another £80 million a year available, because that is what part 3 will cost. Do you think the balance is right, given that we are putting all the extra money into part 3 provisions—the parole provisions—or would the balance be better if some of that money were spent on assisting with implementing part 1?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Do you think that the proposed changes to parole in part 3 will enhance victims’ rights, or are you concerned that they might raise expectations that will be dashed in practice?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally, you have been focusing on part 1, which is where a lot of the work you do is focused. If part 1 is enacted as drafted, will that improve victims’ experiences, or will it not make much difference? What is your assessment of the overall picture of part 1?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
I know that the PCC for Thames ValleyQ strongly supports compliance with the victims code sitting with PCCs. I think you have both indicated, Ms Linden and Ms Henry, that you do too. This morning, Dame Vera Baird spoke to us. She suggested that there should perhaps be a local version of victims’ commissioners in each PCC area; London effectively has that, I know. Ms Henry, what do you think about that as a proposal? Surely you are the victims’ champion. Would it not therefore cut across your responsibilities as a PCC?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Ms Linden, how do you make sure in London that it is not confusing, and that you as, effectively, the PCC are actually the victims’ champion?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q But aren’t the police, who are effectively accountable to you, more likely to take victims’ concerns seriously if it is you as the PCC who are their champion, rather than it being another voice in the mix?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
DCC Barnett, do you have a view on that?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q We know that one of the things that victims really want to see is speedy access to justice. The police frequently tell me that one cause of delay is the requirement to redact any personal details before they are sent to the CPS to make a charging decision—not at the stage when they are going to potential defendants, but at that very early stage. Is there any potential legislative change that the Bill could make to address that problem?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Ms Henry?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q A suggestion made this morning was that in order to ensure that the police and potentially prosecutors comply with the victims code, any failure to do so should be sanctioned, perhaps by docking their pay. That struck me as somewhat excessive; looking at your facial reactions, I pick up the same from you. I wonder, so that we have them on the record, what your views are of the proposal to dock police officers’ pay if they are not in some way compliant with the victims code.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
It is not my suggestion. Thank you all very much.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We have eight minutes and two Members left.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Earlier this morning, Rachel de Souza, the Children’s Commissioner, said that where children are victims or have been exploited, their experience with the police often makes them feel like criminals, so they often do not come forward. She was suggesting that in the victims code there should be an amendment to address children as victims specifically. Do you share her view? May we have your general feedback on that, pleaseQ ?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Fair enough.
Maggie Throup (Conservative, Erewash)
My question is mainly for Caroline, but I am happy for the other two witnesses to give their thoughts as well. This follows on from something you said earlier, Caroline, about last week’s incident in Nottingham and how some victims—a lot of people—do not know that they are victims. I raised this in the Chamber; that incident had an impact in my constituency, it being so close. You hesitated earlier about how we would cope with that. Do you think that the Bill is adequate for those hidden victims? How do we ensure that they are aware that there is a victims code? What more can be done, and should we do it through this legislation or other mechanismsQ ?
Maggie Throup (Conservative, Erewash)
Q Should we do it through legislation? Or are there other mechanisms?
Maggie Throup (Conservative, Erewash)
Q Sophie, London has lots of different incidents.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
I am sorry that I was late; I had today’s ten-minute rule Bill.Q
One of the things we have heard from earlier witnesses is that a larger group of people should be covered by the term “victims”. For example, it could cover people involved in anti-social behaviour cases, and somebody suggested that people who are migrants and worried about their status should be dealt with in the Bill in a special way. Of course, the duty to collaborate and the services covered by that duty are quite specific, and there are a limited number of advisers who have been trained in independent domestic violence and sexual violence work. We have heard that there is quite a need to develop those roles—to have some core skills that are understood and so on. Is there a danger that we expand the definition of victim to the point where the services that are available just cannot cope?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for questions. I thank the witnesses on the Committee’s behalf for their evidence.
Examination of Witness
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Q Could you introduce yourself for the record, please?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
We have until 3 pm for these questions.
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Part 3 of the Bill had no pre-legislative scrutiny; do you think it would have benefited from that? How much engagement has the Parole Board had with the Government on that part of the BillQ ?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q The proposed new release test introduces a public protection threshold. How does the Parole Board currently approach risk? Is the new test likely to result in a change in how the Parole Board makes decisions?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q In the Bill, there is a checklist of things that it is proposed the Parole Board should take into account when making those decisions. I heard what you said about it not making a difference to how the Parole Board operates now, but something that is missing from the checklist but that I understand the Parole Board currently takes into account is unproven allegations against the prisoner. What do you think the implications of that being left off the list are?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q The Bill gives the Secretary of State powers to veto the Parole Board’s decisions in certain cases. Do you think the reforms could impact on the Parole Board’s decision making and/or independence?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q Thanks for that. On a related point, parole hearings feature a great deal of information about the offender. There can be lots of reports and an in-depth hearing before a decision is made. In your view, will the Secretary of State be able to consider all the evidence before making a decision?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q Thanks for that. The upper tribunal will have the power to confirm a decision or direct the release of a prisoner, but as they do not have experience of assessing risk in the way the Parole Board does, how will they be able to make those sorts of assessments?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Clause 36 enables the Secretary of State to take a decision that is referred to them by the Parole Board. Can you think of any circumstances in which a Parole Board might refer a decision to the Secretary of State in place of making a decision itself?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Clause 46 enables the Secretary of State to prescribe what description of member should handle a particular case. It relates to this idea that there ought to be more members with a law enforcement background and that that would give a different perspective. Do you think it would affect the independence of the Parole Board and its practical capacity to get panels together to deal with the cases if there was a prescription about who had to be on each panel?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally, clause 47 provides a statutory power for the Secretary of State to dismiss the chair of the Parole Board. Does that present an issue with the independence of the board, as far as you are concerned?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
That brings to a close the questions for this session. Thank you for coming this afternoon and answering questions.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Jan, could you introduce yourself for the record, please?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Jan, could you start by telling the Committee what you think of the Bill and whether you think it includes all categories of victimsQ ?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q What recourse would a victim have if their rights under the code were not met?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q The Bill has provision for rape victims and witnesses to be given the opportunity to meet the CPS service staff involved in their case ahead of trial. However, there is a CPS document, “Speaking to Witnesses at Court”, that already tells prosecutors to do that. What is the actual change here?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q On collaboration, last year there was a joint report by His Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and fire and rescue services and the Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate. It found that lack of collaboration between the police and prosecutors led to huge delays and poor communication with victims of rape. What in the Bill will change anything for victims?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Would that, or the Bill, do anything to change the fact that on average, 706 days elapse from the date of reporting an offence to the police to the start of the trial?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q So nothing in the Bill will put an obligation on you to change any of that.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q During those 706 days, what support will you offer the victim, and how will the Bill change that?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Do you have examples? What kind of services are you talking about?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q Are you not doing that now? How does the Bill improve that?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q So the Bill, in fact, will not do anything to improve things for victims.
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
Q The report I mentioned raised significant concerns about the quality of communication between the CPS and victims. Should there be something in the Bill about what victims should expect from those communications? I have heard from victims that it is frequently disjointed and lacks detail. They are unaware of what is happening. That lack of communication is a real problem. What will the Bill do to improve that?
Anna McMorrin (Labour, Cardiff North)
I was actually referring specifically to the CPS, because that was raised in the report. Thank you.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Could I take you back to the provision in the proposed updated code to have a meeting at an earlier stage between the CPS with a victim of an alleged crime? You have suggested that that would be in a rape and serious sexual offence case after a not guilty plea. Who from the CPS would be having that meeting?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q That would be great if it could be delivered, but can I just push you on the practicalities? Will it really be about what is in the best interests of the victim, or will it actually be about whether a lawyer is available? Quite often it can be difficult even to find a lawyer to go and present the case in court, let alone one with the time to review the case or the time to have a pre-trial meeting with the victim. Will they not inevitably end up at the bottom of the pile?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Well, is that right or is that wrong? Does the victim not need to have confidence in the person who is going to stand up and ask some tough questions on their behalf?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q And you are confident that that meeting with, effectively, case progression or a reviewing lawyer is sufficient to build confidence and achieve the ultimate aim of giving a better service to the victim.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q How much scope is there for the CPS to improve in other cases? We have talked about rape and serious sexual offences, where there is going to be this new pre-meeting to avoid the situation where a victim of a crime appears in court on the day that the alleged offender is being tried only to discover that the CPS lawyer has been given the case papers five minutes before. That does happen; I speak with 12 years’ experience of seeing it happen.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
And sometimes it is much shorter notice than that.
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q How can you reassure this Committee and, indeed, Parliament and the general public that the CPS will follow through with the aims that are in the Bill to ensure that victims of crime, at whatever level, genuinely get a much better service from the CPS?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Q Are you confident that you have the skills available and the resources to do so?
Rob Butler (Conservative, Aylesbury)
Thank you very much.
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
You said that victims find it useful to meet with prosecutors. I accept that and understand why, but do you support measures to offer free legal advice to rape victims?Q
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Thank you.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I want to pick you up on something you said about Operation Soteria—that victims had found the process of meeting prior helpful. Were those victims supported by another service? You mentioned victims and their support services. Victims were not coming to you solely on their own; they were coming with an ISVA or support of some kind.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Yes, that was my understanding.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I have been to lots of rape cases and supported lots of people through the rape courts—I was in one last week. The idea that a victim—in this case a 13-year-old girl—would have the wherewithal to know what legal questions she would want answered, without her having her own advocate alongside her, is, I have to say, for the birds. As for the idea that just having a meeting with the CPS will enable them to get their legal questions answered, I suggest that the average person in this country will not know what legal questions they need answering, so it might be better for them potentially to have a legal advocate alongside.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Great.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q We know, and we have heard evidence today, that for rape victims the potential that their personal medical records or therapy records will be disclosed through this process is a real deterrent. What is your view on the proposals that a judicial declaration should be required for disclosure? I am interested, because among the arguments against that I have heard is that it would slow the court process even more, and we have court backlogs as it is. Where are you on that?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q Is it the experience of the CPS that, even with the guidelines as they are now and the need to give good reason effectively, it is still providing a deterrent to victims pursuing their cases?
Janet Daby (Labour, Lewisham East)
Q How would you view your role as working with an independent public advocate? Have you given that any thought?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q When you are prosecuting a case, clearly you have to have the conduct of it. To what extent does that limit what might be possible?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Obviously, you have a duty to the court. The judge is in charge of the procedure and the law. Does that create any limitations for the role of an independent advocate working for a witness?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Well, the prosecutor clearly would want to be in charge of the prosecution, because that is your duty. Is there a limit to what the role of the independent advocate can be, and if so, what would it be?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Yes, but in individual cases—some of the most sensitive cases there can be—you would not expect the role of an adviser to impinge on the role of the court, because there is a legal basis to this.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Do you want to say a word about special measures, which is one of the ways in which a witness can be made to feel more comfortable?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q When would the discussion about that occur? Would it be at the meeting after the not-guilty plea?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
There are no more questions, so I thank the witness, Jan Lamping, for coming and giving evidence this afternoon. We will end that session and move on to the next session a few minutes early. I warn people that we are expecting a vote fairly soon, so we will have to interrupt proceedings when that happens.
Examination of Witnesses
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Can I welcome the witnesses and ask you to introduce yourselves for the record, please?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Thank you very much for coming; sorry if we get interrupted in between with democracy—it gets in the way of all sorts. The part of the Bill that focuses mainly on your areas of work is the issue of collaboration between different partners. Could you quickly give us your views on how you think this the Bill will encourage a better duty to collaborate than currently exists and where it might need to be strengthened?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Before I come to you, Councillor Bell, I just want to focus specifically on health, because regardless of the quadrupling funding that we have been hearing about from some witnesses and the Minister today, the local authority is and always will be the biggest provider of victim services in our country. Certainly when we are talking about domestic abuse and sexual violence services, that has always been the biggest provider of funding and, obviously, that has definitely not been quadrupled.
Historically, health services have not been a commissioner in this particular space. When Rape Crisis England and Wales gave its evidence earlier, the witness said that she could not think of a mental health trust in the country that commissioned a specialist trauma service for victims of rape and sexual violence, and that has certainly been my experience as well—not that I could not think of one, but that it is very patchy. Kate, I noticed that you said it would be better if they had better advice. Do you think that the duty is strong enough to make the ICBs actually fund any of this work?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I am delighted to see both of you in your positions—neither of your positions existed that long ago, so it is a delight to see you both in them. What I want to know is whether this Bill, and the duty to collaborate specifically around domestic and sexual violence—which does include health service providers—is actually going to make it so that the ICBs, for example, all commission services for domestic and sexual violence. If I were to think of the population of any particular area, you are talking tens of thousands of victims in the west midlands alone. If you were to have a similar health problem that tens of thousands of people had suffered from, you can bet your bottom dollar that my ICB is funding a specific service for them. Do you think that this is going to do that in this case? Do you think the duty to collaborate will lead to anybody actually doing that?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Councillor Bell, from the point of view of the local authorities, how do you think the duty to collaborate will make a difference?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q For example, we already made a duty on the local authorities: unitary, tier 1 local authorities had the duty to offer refuge accommodation to victims of domestic abuse, and had to give priority to victims of domestic abuse in housing. In reality, that priority means that a person is almost certainly on a waiting list for a year—in fact they would be lucky if it were a year. Similarly, there is access to children’s services. The two biggest areas of victims’ lives—in the case of the duty to collaborate, which is only for domestic and sexual abuse—are housing and children’s services. The vast majority of this will fall to the local authority. Once you have this duty, is there any sense that it will not just be another thing that creates long waiting lists?
Elliot Colburn (Conservative, Carshalton and Wallington)
IQ will stick with the theme of duty to collaborate, and I should probably declare an interest as a former local government councillor and a paid employee of an integrated care board in the past. We know full well from the example of the integration of health and social care how even getting the NHS and local government to work closely together has been a challenge. In fact, that is still a challenge even to this day. Catherine, where do you think the responsibility should lie for overseeing the implementation of this collaboration at a local level? Should it be police and crime commissioners, the NHS, or the councils? Where do you think that it would be best placed?