Energy Bill [Lords]

Public Bill Committee, 23 May 2023.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

I welcome the Committee to this first sitting of line-by-line consideration of the mighty Energy Bill. Even though most of the Committee will be experts in these matters, it might be helpful for me to run through a few parish notices first. Those of you who are not familiar with Bill Committees should let me know, but if I am teaching granny to suck eggs, forgive me.

The Bill is as you see it before you. If any member of the Committee, whether from the Government side or the Opposition, wishes to table amendments to it, they must do so by close of business—when the House rises—on the Thursday for formal consideration on the Tuesday, or by close of business on the Monday for formal consideration on the Thursday. If amendments are not laid by that time, they will not feature in our considerations until a later stage.

The amendments as laid are grouped together—by me in theory, although in fact by my learned friends the Clerks, with my approval—into convenient debates. Amendments that might be spread all over the Bill are brought together in one grouping to be considered by the Committee in a debate. However, decisions on individual amendments are taken at the appropriate stage in the Bill, when those amendments come up, so the vote is not taken at the time that the amendment is debated, but later on in consideration, when they come up in the Bill. Of those speaking on amendments, the first person whose name is at the top of the amendment speaks first; others may speak as they wish throughout the debate.

Just a small word: the standards of behaviour in Committee are precisely identical to those in the Chamber, in terms of dress, drinking coffee and all those other things. I am a bit of an old-fashioned stickler on such matters, so forgive me, but I warn you in advance that I tend to be on the conservative side on them.

We will consider first the programme motion, which stands in the Minister’s name. It was discussed yesterday in the Programming Sub-Committee.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

The Committee will therefore meet again this afternoon at 2 o’clock and twice every sitting Thursday and Tuesday until 29 June, unless we complete before then, which depends on the Committee. We now have to consider written evidence.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Copies of written evidence received by the Committee will therefore be circulated to members by email and published on the Bill website.

We now proceed to line-by-line consideration of the Bill.

Clause 1 - Principal objectives and general duties of Secretary of State and economic regulator

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I beg to move amendment 75, in clause 1, page 3, line 11, at end insert—

“or who seeks to be a party to arrangements for the use of sequestered and transported carbon dioxide”.

This amendment seeks to refer specifically to the “use” of carbon dioxide, as well as arrangements for transport for the purpose of disposal.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 76, in clause 2, page 3, line 35, at end insert—

“(c) the use of sequestered and transported carbon dioxide.”

This amendment seeks to provide an additional area of activity prohibited on an unlicensed basis.

Amendment 81, in clause 57, page 51, line 19, at end insert—

“(d) a carbon capture use revenue support contract.”

This makes explicit the case of a contract for the use of carbon capture.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

It is a pleasure to serve once again under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. We have served in Committee together on a number of occasions, and I know that you will keep us closely to the subjects in hand as we go through the Bill, which I am sure will be a good thing for its progress.

Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I want to make a personal point: may I ask him to speak up slightly? I am hard of hearing and I am already struggling to hear what he is saying. I thank him.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I appreciate that point. A moment ago, I was just making a personal aside to the Chair. I will try to address the Committee in a more expansive manner.

This group of amendments would put the full definition of carbon capture, usage and storage into the Bill. As Members know, this Bill chapter is about various activities that go on with carbon capture, usage and storage, but unaccountably the detail in the Bill talks about only carbon capture and storage. We may think that is the definition of what we are talking about, but it is not just a process of sequestering the carbon that arises from, say, a power station or cement works. Various carbon capture and storage arrangements will have to be made for the sequestering of carbon dioxide in many uses, both industrial and energy-based, throughout the country.

Then, so the story goes, that carbon dioxide is transported, by either pipe or barge, and is sequestered at a suitable site. The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero waxed lyrical recently about just how much sequestering space there is around the UK waters. His view, which I think is absolutely correct, is that the sequestration of carbon dioxide as an industrial activity in the UK, with all the preparation that goes with it, is not just a necessary feature for the end of the carbon capture and storage process but something that the UK can offer to many countries around the world for their carbon sequestration, making a substantial plus-industry for the UK out of the process.

That is the end of the carbon dioxide story—how it goes from capture, either by chemical means or by extracting it from flue gases or whatever, to being put on its journey. In my long history of engagement on carbon capture and storage, I have always said that that is the case, but a number of years ago the Government added an important rider to that process in the definition that we use: CCUS, not CCS. CCUS is important because it is not just an uninterruptable process of carbon going into the transportation and sequestration arrangements, having been captured in the first place; there are points in the process whereby the carbon can be taken out of the transportation and sequestration process. Depending on the quality of the carbon dioxide that has been captured, it can be put to secondary use, before being captured again in the process, as it goes round again.

There are considerable opportunities in making the cycle go round twice, or several times, before the sequestration takes place. That is potentially an important part of getting best value out of the carbon capture and storage process. One of the first uses of the process that I came across was quite a while ago, when I paid a visit to one of the world’s first operational carbon capture and storage plants at the Boundary dam in Saskatchewan. The energy company in Saskatchewan was capturing the carbon output from a fossil fuel energy plant and diverting the carbon that was being captured in the first instance to the process of repressurising wells in oil fields to enhance the recovery of oil. Of course, the carbon was then recaptured after that point but, importantly, that cycle had been broken and something else had happened.

That is just one use, but there are many other uses that we could think about putting carbon dioxide to. It can be used in the chemical industry in the production of methanol, in metalworking to harden the casing of moulds, or in the petroleum industry to optimise the yield of oil wells. It has a substantial use in healthcare and in horticulture. As we know from junior-school biology, plants can increase their size and output by having a carbon dioxide-rich atmosphere in which to grow, and there are substantial opportunities to use carbon dioxide under those circumstances.

Those are not significant interruptions, as it were, in the carbon-capture cycle. Indeed, the use of carbon under those circumstances is beginning—or will begin—to be programmed into the carbon capture and sequestration process. Of course, programming it in is important in terms of the arrangements being set out in the Bill for the circumstances under which licences can be granted.

We will hear a lot about licences in the passage of this Bill. As we know, certainly in the energy sphere, pretty much everything that can or cannot be done is licensed in one way or another, and there is a great deal of legislation for that purpose—for example, the Petroleum Act 1998 and the electricity and gas Acts, which set out the circumstances under which licences should be granted. Indeed, as we will see in the first part of the Bill, there is a restated imperative that people cannot carry out these things on an unlicensed basis; they really must have a licence at all stages of carbon capture—a licence to capture, a licence to transport and a licence to sequester.

The hole in the Bill is in what happens when the process is interrupted. I do not use the word “interrupted” in a derogatory sense; it is very positive that we can make the most use of carbon dioxide in its passage. Having invested a lot of money in capture, it is a good idea to try to recycle the process as much as we can, but for reasons I am not quite clear on—the Minister may be able to enlighten me—the wording of the Bill does not appear to account for that particular sphere of CCUS activity.

It may be that I have missed something and that the use of carbon should not be included in the licensing and licensable arrangements. The Government may be quite satisfied that the interruption of the process is perfectly okay to leave alone. I do not think that is the case because, as I have set out, it is part of the whole process. If we are to take carbon capture and storage seriously, we will want to know that carbon dioxide use, as part of the process, goes back into the cycle of capture and storage in the long term, and that carbon is not just captured but used for a particular purpose in the way I described. After that, it disappears back into the atmosphere, presumably to be captured again at a future date.

It is important that the licensing arrangement is complete as far as the passage of carbon is concerned. Amendments 75, 76 and 81 would add the use of carbon dioxide to the various clauses that relate to the overall process. The amendments would provide a definition of carbon capture use, and additional wording for the process of licensing and of use itself. We would not want to move the amendments separately; they are rightly marshalled together in today’s proceedings. I move the amendments together, as they are grouped in the selection list, because, as I have said, they are essentially concerned with the question of use.

I am sure the Minister will provide us with a suitably inspired reply, so that we can be reassured either that this has all been thought about, and our amendments are therefore superfluous, or that there is a problem and, whether or not he accepts the amendments this morning, the process will be looked at to ensure that we have the full definition, and the full process is in hand as far as the passage of carbon capture and storage is concerned.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Technically speaking, the Member has moved only amendment 75. The other two amendments will be decided on when we reach the relevant clauses. He cannot move all three together; he has moved amendment 75. I call Taiwo Owatemi.

Taiwo Owatemi (Labour, Coventry North West)

indicated dissent.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Sorry. I thought you were waving your hand. If people could stand up and make it plain to me that they wish to speak, I will call them. If they wiggle an eyebrow, raise a hand or otherwise, I will not see them and therefore will not call them. I call Olivia Blake.

Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)

Thank you, Mr Gray. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test. Having spoken to researchers at the University of Sheffield, and understanding that carbon capture and storage is more complicated than just the big carbon capture and storage programmes, I think his amendment is crucial. Modular and small carbon capture is really important, but where the captured CO2 then goes is really important too. Having a CO2 hub provider in this space is important for the circular economy of products, which, although not within the Bill’s exact remit, is fundamental to reducing carbon in the environment.

That is the sense in which this part of the chain needs to be expanded in the Bill, so that use is fully considered and the use of new forms of CO2 is reduced, and so that we get a circular economy. It is important that the Bill tackles that. I hope the Minister will outline why that has been missing so far and will be supportive of the shadow Minister’s amendments, which I hope will plug a gap and eventually lead us to think about these issues from the perspective not just of energy but of products, which contribute hugely to the challenge we face in reducing CO2 emissions. By enabling more circularity, the Bill would give us a better opportunity to join up things that are external to the energy sector, and also through carbon. I hope the Minister will accept that and address my points in his reply.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, and particularly for the first time as a Minister on a Public Bill Committee. I am sure you will keep me on the straight and narrow over the next few weeks. I look forward to working with you and members of the Committee as we scrutinise this landmark and, as you described it, mighty Energy Bill.

To begin, I want to remind Members of the purpose and background of the Bill. The Energy Bill will provide a clearer, more affordable and more secure energy system. It will liberate private investment in clean technology, reform our energy system so that it is fit for purpose, and ensure the safety, security and resilience of the energy system.

I turn first to amendments 75, 76 and 81, tabled by the hon. Members for Southampton, Test and for Bristol East. Amendment 75 seeks to expand the definition of a transport and storage network user in clause 1 to refer additionally to users who may seek to use carbon dioxide taken off a transport and storage network, not just those who are seeking to transport and store carbon dioxide for its permanent geological storage.

Although there are many uses for carbon dioxide across industrial sectors in the UK, including fertiliser production, cement, lime, and food and drink, as the hon. Member for Southampton, Test set out—indeed, there was little in what he said with which I found myself disagreeing—not all these applications result in the permanent abatement of carbon dioxide. For some of those products, the carbon dioxide is ultimately released back into the atmosphere.

The Government’s aim in prioritising support for the deployment of carbon capture and storage in the UK is to incentivise large-scale, permanent abatement of carbon dioxide and the establishment of a transport and storage infrastructure, which is essential to achieve net zero emissions. Carbon capture and usage technologies resulting in the permanent abatement of carbon dioxide could represent only a small abatement potential as compared with carbon capture when the carbon dioxide is disposed of by geological storage. For those seeking to use captured carbon dioxide, alternative options are likely to be available, such as off-taking carbon dioxide directly from an emitter before it enters a transport and storage network. For those reasons, the Government do not consider the amendment to be necessary or appropriate.

Clause 2 establishes a prohibition on operating at a geological carbon dioxide storage site or providing a service of transportation of carbon dioxide by pipeline without a licence. Amendment 76 seeks to expand the scope of this licensing requirement to include licensing the use of carbon dioxide that has been captured and transported. The licensing requirement in clause 2 is intended to establish a regulated investment model for the transport and storage of carbon. This is a “user pays” economic regulation model that involves the network users—power and industrial emitters—paying for the transport and geological storage of the carbon dioxide that they produce. Licensed transport and storage companies will be able to recover their investment in the transport and storage network through the fees charged for transport and storage services. This model provides long-term revenue certainty for investors to pool through the invested needed to establish and scale up carbon dioxide transport and storage infrastructure here in the UK.

As pipeline, transport and storage assets have monopolistic characteristics, oversight by Ofgem, the independent economic regulator of carbon dioxide transport and storage, will ensure that users are protected from anti-competitive behaviour and that costs are economic and efficient. A model of economic regulation for delivering carbon dioxide transport storage was identified as the preferred option following the Government’s 2019 consultation on business models for carbon capture, usage and storage.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

The Minister mentioned Ofgem. What discussions were had with Ofgem about its capability, expertise and resources to deal with what is going to be a whole new suite of competencies for Ofgem?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Of course, none of this is without its challenges, and Ofgem recognises that. However, I have regular conversations with Ofgem and the Department is happy that it is indeed scaling up its capability, to enable it to deal with not only the new carbon capture utilisation and storage procedures that we are discussing but the whole range of areas in which Ofgem will have a role as we move towards a net zero future. Given the aims and purpose of the economic licensing framework that clause 2 establishes, I hope that the hon. Member for Southampton, Test will agree to withdraw his amendment.

Amendment 81 seeks explicitly to include within the scope of the term “revenue support contract” a contract for the use of carbon capture. We understand that to mean a contract to support carbon capture and usage. The carbon capture revenue support contracts are intended to support the deployment of carbon capture technologies. The Bill allows for carbon capture revenue support contracts to be entered into with eligible carbon capture entities. Broadly, a carbon capture entity is a person who, with a view to the storage of carbon dioxide, carries on activities of capturing carbon dioxide that has been produced by commercial or industrial activities, is in the atmosphere or has dissolved in seawater.

Storage of carbon dioxide is storage with a view to the permanent containment of carbon dioxide. It is important to emphasise that provisions in the Bill may therefore allow for a broad range of carbon capture applications, including those carbon capture entities that utilise the carbon dioxide, resulting in the storage of carbon dioxide with a view to its permanent containment. Decisions on which carbon capture entities will receive Government support are to be made on a case-by-case basis. Prioritising support for carbon storage is considered essential to help deliver our decarbonisation targets.

Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)

Will my hon. Friend describe the actual mechanisms of the carbon dioxide storage, geologically? How will that be done—for instance, will that be out into the North sea, using old oil platforms?

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Within the context of this amendment?

Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)

In the context of carbon dioxide storage.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. I would be happy to give a thorough explanation of exactly how the carbon capture and storage will proceed; I am sure we will get to that in the course of our debate on the Bill, and in other places. However, I am not sure where that would fit within the context of this debate, other than to say that the technology being developed by companies, organisations and clusters around the UK is world leading. When it comes to being able to store in the future the carbon dioxide being produced in the UK now, the North Sea is of course the greatest asset that we have as a country. The oil and gas industry will be able to play a pivotal role in that development as we move forward.

Given the reasoning I have set out, I hope that the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test will be withdrawn.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I appreciate what the Minister has said this morning. Frankly, though, I am not wholly convinced that the processes have been fully accounted for. I emphasised the various uses of carbon dioxide. The Minister is right that not all those uses lead to eventual sequestration. However, most of the uses that do not lead to additional sequestration do, on occasions, sequester the carbon dioxide in the process itself.

For example, carbon dioxide used in horticulture is substantially sequestered during the process of growing the plants. There is potentially an important use of carbon dioxide in processing hydrogen and in producing sustainable aviation fuel. Those processes sort of sequester the carbon in producing a different product, which is itself then burned. We then have to sequester the whole lot again, but the product has been used in the meantime.

It is important to concentrate on aligning the processes within carbon dioxide use as closely as possible with the process of sequestration, not simply allowing the carbon dioxide to escape. One thing that concerns me is the use of carbon dioxide in the process of the enhanced recovery of oil, because unless that carbon dioxide can be sequestered at the point it is injected into a well, although it produces greater amounts of oil it leaks into the atmosphere again, so we have a net negative outcome. We have produced more oil, but arguably it should have been left where it was in many instances.

Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)

That leads to the question that I asked the Minister. The issues that the hon. Member for Southampton, Test is raising show that there is a research and development need for sequestration in, for instance, licensing oil and gas. That will need a large investment, so does he agree that it is important that the oil and gas industry uses some of its large profits to ensure that it can do the R&D available to sequester carbon dioxide, and does that call into question the idea of scrapping the return on profits—often criticised by the Opposition—because we need R&D to achieve this?

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Order. That is beyond the scope of the amendment.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Thank you, Mr Gray. Well, I—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Don’t be tempted.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

All right, I won’t be.

The key point that I am trying to add to this morning’s debate is that a number of systems could be greatly enhanced in their operation by, for example, having a much greater supply of carbon dioxide available to them than is the case at the moment. The Minister may remember that we had a mini-crisis a little while ago: one of the factories that was producing industrial-use carbon dioxide closed down and we were left in the UK with one factory producing carbon dioxide. There was then a considerable run on it, which meant that, going to the heart of our civilisation, carbonating fizzy drinks was potentially under threat.

Having much greater availability through the carbon capture and storage process of carbon dioxide that could be used in industrial processes could be very good for industry, and indeed for the security of the processes that we continue to need carbon dioxide for. At the same time, that process needs some supervision to ensure that we are not undoing what we have started to do in carbon capture by making the product more widely available. Although I do not intend to push the amendment to a vote, I hope that the Minister will take onboard the idea that this is a substantial area, which we need to pay close attention to. We need to regulate it so that it points in the same direction as the carbon capture and storage process and so that the whole system is not undone by what is available.

Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)

I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman. If I understand our historical regulatory regime, it was about prevention from harm—we would regulate cyanide, but not necessarily CO2. Does the hon. Gentleman have the right balance? Net zero is a systemic challenge; if we seek to regulate every single individual piece of it, we risk clogging the system with regulation.

What I see is a Government trying to make sure that carbon capture and storage has not turned into some fool’s errand, with some Shylock allowing carbon to come out of the other side of the mine. We are finding the right balance and not over-regulating an industry—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Order. Interventions must be brief; Members should not ramble on for half an hour. I call Alan Whitehead.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

The hon. Member is right that we should not seek to regulate everything out of existence. As she says, provided that the basic position is in place many industrial and commercial processes do not actually do harm, and there are all sorts of ways of making sure of that; then we can leave them alone.

My only point is not about separately regulating something that has otherwise been completely unregulated, but that this is an overall process and we need to make sure that, overall, the processes all point in the same direction. That is, one way or another, that we produce less carbon dioxide, allow less carbon dioxide to escape into the atmosphere and do what we can to use sequestered carbon dioxide in the best way. Normally, that means transporting it, for which we need regulations to make sure that there are no leakages, for example.

At the moment, we are considering a number of different options when it comes to the transportation of carbon dioxide. As the hon. Member for South Ribble will know, that does not just consist of trying to put down pipelines to deliver the carbon dioxide to the port of exit before it is put into the storage site. Obviously, sites themselves need proper regulation so that they are safe for the purposes of storage.

Earlier, the right hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell questioned the process of storage. It is vital that the storage itself is suitable. We know, from what we have to rely on, that the storage is likely to be sound—that means, frankly, that once we have put the stuff underground it stays there and does not leak out subsequently. That is quite a science in its own right. A great deal of the time spent looking at storage sites is about being absolutely sure that the site is as we thought it was in order to avoid disaster once we have committed ourselves to storage on the site. Given the different kinds of storage site, considerable work is under way, all of which needs to be regulated properly.

We have to consider alternative forms of storage—saline aquifers, for example. It is not just a question of storing carbon dioxide in depleted oil or gas fields; a number of other geological formations appear to be suitable for the purpose. Whether those alternative formations can be used for storage onshore as well as offshore is a particular concern. People may raise the issue of carbon dioxide leaking out onshore—as well as offshore, potentially.

Throughout, there is a need to regulate how the process works. With respect to the hon. Member for South Ribble, I do not think that it is over-prescriptive to say that we need some regulation of the use of carbon dioxide—after all, in theory at least, using the carbon for the best purpose is an essential part of the process—hence the amendments that we have tabled, which I hope are constructive.

Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)

There are two points to this, are there not? There is a set amount of carbon at the moment, which is increasing annually. Usage allows us to reduce that—instead of new forms of carbon going into the atmosphere, we would reuse what we have. That is why the amendment is key. I hope that the Government take it away to look at again. It is also basic chemistry that if we are putting CO2 into a chemical reaction, we will not get CO2 coming out the other end until the product degrades, so it is a falsehood that it will all immediately leak—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Order. Interventions must be brief.

Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)

Sorry, Mr Gray. There are two points there that I think the Minister has not considered fully.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Dr Whitehead, perhaps you will be brief. We have already given this group quite a long debate.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Thank you, Mr Gray. My hon. Friend makes an important point about the distinction between what we do now with carbon dioxide and what we might do with it in future. At present—I mentioned a carbon dioxide factory that closed down—we are actually purposely making carbon dioxide in other processes, where it was previously sequestered among the molecules or whatever of the raw material. In future, we will take the carbon dioxide that we have captured in a different form to replace the manufactured carbon dioxide. It is important to understand the difference and to have a positive effect on the arrangements for carbon dioxide used for industrial purposes by substituting the creation of carbon dioxide with the use of carbon dioxide already going through the system.

I agree, Mr Gray, that we have had a good debate. We do not wish to press the amendment to a Division, but I am sure that although the Minister has not exactly been taking copious notes, he will be assured of the purpose of the amendment and can consider whether anything further needs to be done to ensure that such processes are integral to the system as a whole. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

New clauses 33 to 36 would insert provisions for the review of the strategy and policy statement, and procedure requirements for the designation of such a statement.

The Bill already contains a number of measures to deliver a cleaner, more affordable and more secure energy system for the long term, as set out by the long title, so there seems to be little to be gained from the proposed new clause 33. The Government’s approach to these matters will be informed by the strategy and policy statement provided for under the Energy Act 2013, on which we are currently consulting.

I turn to new clauses 34, 35 and 36. The 2013 Act introduced a power to designate a strategy and policy statement setting out the Government’s strategic priorities for energy policy in Great Britain, the roles and responsibilities of those implementing such a policy and the policy outcomes to be achieved. The strategic priorities of the Government’s energy policy are to be taken as a whole. They include, but are not limited to, our targets under the Climate Change Act 2008, reducing costs for consumers, tackling fuel poverty, and securing a diverse and viable long-term energy supply. The strategy and policy statement power in the 2013 Act is not specific to the measures contained in any specific Act. The power is wider, and it enables the strategy and policy statement to cover any or all of the Government’s strategic energy priorities, wherever they are set out.

On 10 May 2023, the Government published their consultation on a draft strategy and policy statement for energy policy in Great Britain. We are seeking responses until 2 August, and we intend to designate a final strategy and policy statement by the end of this year. Designation of a strategy and policy statement will ultimately be a decision for Parliament, not for the Secretary of State. I hope that hon. Members are satisfied by those reassurances.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

Will that be a wider strategy and policy statement that goes to Ofgem? An overarching energy policy has long been outstanding.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I believe that that was made clear. As I said earlier, we are working with Ofgem to ensure that it has the capabilities to deal with all of this. In terms of a national policy statement for Ofgem moving forwards, there will be a series of announcements over the next few months and, indeed, the year that will enable Ofgem and the future service operator to get into a position where they are able to deal with what we introduce through the Bill and other statements.

Clause 1 establishes Ofgem as the economic regulator for carbon dioxide transport and storage. It also establishes the principal objectives and statutory duties for both the Secretary of State and Ofgem in carrying out their functions under part 1 of the Bill. Transport and storage networks will act as the enabling infrastructure for carbon capture and storage from a range of sources, including power plants, industrial facilities, low-carbon hydrogen production and, potentially, direct air capture.

The economic regulation model provides long-term revenue certainty for network operators while protecting network users from monopolistic behaviours, as has already been described. The Government consider that Ofgem is the most appropriate body to act as the economic regulator for carbon dioxide transport and storage, due to its experience and expertise in the economic regulation of the overall energy sector. The selection of Ofgem as the regulator has received broad support from the industry. The principal objectives set out in clause 1 reflect the balance of considerations for a nascent carbon dioxide transport and storage sector.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Clause 1 concerns the appointment of Ofgem as a regulator for these activities—in particular, carbon capture and storage. The new clauses that we have tabled seek to gather together what is in the Bill and provide it with a purpose clause, and to suggest to the Secretary of State that the Bill’s contents might be encapsulated, for future direction and use, in a strategy and purpose document.

Two of the new clauses deal with the activities that should be undertaken subsequent to a strategy and purpose statement being issued by the Government. In particular, there is a need to review such a statement on a regular basis, given that circumstances may change over a five-year period; for example, following the election, the Government of the day may have a slightly different interpretation of the strategy and purpose of the Act. Basically, the new clauses contain a series of provisions to make the strategy and purpose statement usable over a long period, for the purpose of encapsulating what is in the Bill.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Order. Let me interrupt the hon. Gentleman. New clauses would normally be discussed towards the end of the Committee’s debates. We took the view that, because these new clauses deal with strategy and purpose, they might by that time be out of order. We therefore thought it reasonable to allow His Majesty’s loyal Opposition to have a full debate on them now, rather than towards the end of our consideration, as would happen normally.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Indeed, Mr Gray; thank you for reminding the Committee of that. I am grateful to you and to the Clerks for your careful consideration of how we should proceed with these new clauses. As you say, the normal procedure—indeed, I have taken part in a number of Bill Committees where this has happened—is that new clauses are put at the end of the selection list. I can see that a number of new clauses have been selected for debate right at the end of our consideration of the Bill. By the way, I am slightly less pleased to see that the changes to the Bill that were wrought in the other place have been placed, by and large, in a new section at the end. I assume that those will be debated—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Which we will discuss when we get to them.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Indeed. They will be debated at the same time, at the end of our consideration of the Bill.

As you rightly say, Mr Gray, new clauses 33 to 36 may have be surplus to our discussions, should we have debated them at the end of proceedings rather than at the beginning. I am pleased that we are able to debate them now, given that they are concerned with our discussions on the early part of the Bill.

As has been widely trailed, the Bill is one of the most extensive that has come before this House, certainly in the energy sphere, and is probably one of the most extensive and substantial Bills in recent history. It seeks to do an enormous number of things. Although we do not think it does enough, by and large the things that it does are all necessary for the passage of our energy economy from a high-carbon to a low-carbon basis, with all the things that go with that, which we will discuss later in the Bill, such as carbon capture and storage, hydrogen, new forms of management of grid systems—all the things that point in a green, low-carbon direction. It is essential to put them into legislation by means of what I would describe as the green plumbing of the system. A great deal of the Bill is not about high-flown rhetoric on why we should decarbonise our structures, but about getting down to the real business of doing it as quickly as possible.

I think we can agree that the Bill lists a disparate series of things that are fit for our discussion and ready to go. Indeed, in a famous recent TikTok video, the Secretary of State stood against a wall with individual pages of the Bill stuck on it and said that it is the largest Bill on energy in history. I tweeted a response to the effect that the Government have been really good at getting the largest bills in history into the laps of customers—that was a bit of levity in response to the Secretary of State’s more serious point. The Bill is extensive, for deliberate purposes, which all point in the same direction.

There is perhaps cause for a little concern. When Bills seek to do such extensive plumbing work, it is easy to lose sight of what that plumbing is actually about. We need to be clear that we do not have a series of actions that might or might not be taken in respect of the various subject headings in the Bill; they are all actions that have to be taken in pursuit of what should be the overall purpose of the Bill, which is to secure us a low-carbon future. The Conservatives and Labour agree that those actions are not in dispute; they are essential for the purposes that we think are important for the future of our low-carbon economy.

The idea of a purpose clause is not something dreamt up by the Opposition as an interesting diversion during the early stages of discussing the Bill. A number of pieces of legislation have purpose clauses; they have fallen out of fashion in more recently, but if one looks back over a reasonable period, one sees that many Acts have such sections at the beginning. They recapitulate what comes after and put it in context, so that people who have not been subjected to our detailed discussions in Committee can say, “That is what this Act is about. There are provisions in the Act that point in this direction, and I should look at and respond to the Act in the light of that overall purpose.” That is a good and important thing.

Purpose clauses are not just nice things to have at the front of a Bill. They are quite useful for those who seek to interpret an Act at a later date—lawyers and the like. They may have opinions about what a particular part of the Act does, but they will be guided by the purpose clause at the front of the Act. For the Ministers who implement the terms of an Act, it is useful to have a clear statement of what Parliament thought we were doing when we put the Act on the statute book and of the framework in which the rest of the Act should be read.

The purpose clause that we have tabled, new clause 33, states:

“The principal purpose of this Act is to increase the resilience and reliability of energy systems across the UK, support the delivery of the UK’s climate change commitments and reform the UK’s energy system while minimising costs to consumers and protecting them from unfair pricing.”

That is a good summation of the Bill’s purpose. Members may want to add or subtract bits, but it is reasonable summation of where we are and where we want to go. Subsection (2) seeks to ground the Bill in other important legislation and states:

“In performing functions under this Act, the relevant persons and bodies”—

that is, people who are interpreting the Act’s principal purpose—“shall have regard to” certain matters, including, most importantly,

“the Secretary of State’s duties under sections 1 and 4(1)(b) of the Climate Change Act 2008…and international obligations contained within Article 2 of the Paris Agreement under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.”

The new clause therefore grounds the Bill firmly in the historic Climate Change Act 2008, sections 1 and 4(1)(b) of which provide for the target in the reduction of carbon dioxide and greenhouse gas emissions that the Secretary of State is supposed to ensure that we achieve by 2050. What will happen to whoever is the Secretary of State in 2050 if they are unable to deliver that target is debateable, but I think we can agree that the Act has really stood the test of time.

The 2008 Act has been widely copied around the world in terms of how it points us firmly in the right direction in the work we have to do to combat anthropogenic global warming so it does not pass the point at which global warming makes life difficult on this planet, and to manage our environment at the same time as managing our industrial and commercial processes. There is a great deal in the Bill on industrial and commercial activities, and the idea that climate change action is about not just closing everything down but moving to processes that tread lightly on the surface of the Earth and provide us with a world that is liveable and sustainable, and a pretty pleasant environment in which to live.

The new clause grounds the Bill firmly in the Climate Change Act and all that goes with it, and then addresses more immediate points. Subsection (2)(c) refers to

“the desirability of reducing costs to consumers and alleviating fuel poverty”.

We are not supposed, under the Bill, to just do things at any cost to anybody; we have to pay proper regard to consumer costs and how people live with their energy problems. That is very current, given the present unaffordability of energy bills for many people. The Bill, in addition to seeking longer term changes in how we go about our industrial and commercial processes, should remind us that it is all about creating a better life for our population and consumers, who must be given proper regard when we legislate.

The final thing that the new clause will require the relevant persons and bodies to have regard to is

“the desirability of securing a diverse and viable long-term energy supply.”

That runs through the Bill like a thread, but is not gathered together in one place. We should not be dependent on a one-club approach to decarbonisation or put all our eggs in one basket, not only because energy security requires us to ensure that we have a diverse supply, so that if one area is not as good as it might be another can be brought into play, but because we should recognise that in the circumstances of what will have to be rapid decarbonisation we must think carefully about how we deploy all those different energy sources. We have to think about what we can get out of them in terms of carbon dioxide reduction, the energy security of these islands and the extent to which we can ensure that the energy decarbonisation process is secure. We must not put ourselves in other people’s hands through the process of decarbonisation; our energy sources must be secure. Indeed, many of the processes that will be put in place by the legislation add, or should add, to the sense of energy security in decarbonisation rather than detract from it.

The new clause is a purpose clause—a clause with purpose. The aim is not just to state a general purpose to the legislation to gather together what it is about. It is to ensure that the Secretary of State pays proper regard to what has gone before and the considerations that need to be taken into account where customers and energy security are concerned. Although not extensive, this is a comprehensive purpose clause that gathers together what the Bill is about. Believe me, having looked at purpose clauses in other legislation, I can tell the Committee that they go on for page after page. This one is quite succinct.

Grouped with the purpose clause are new clauses that expand the actions that need to be taken following the passing of the Bill to make the purpose clause real. They deal with, in particular, the strategy and policy statements for the purposes of the legislation. New clause 34(1) states:

“The Secretary of State may designate a statement as the strategy and policy statement for the purposes of this Act.”

The Minister says the Government are already consulting on a strategy and purpose statement. In respect of the Energy Act 2013, the strategy and purpose statement has an interesting history. The proposal to have a strategy and purpose statement under part 5 of that Act was specifically about the idea that Ofgem should be given a low-carbon imperative in its brief. We will discuss that during later consideration of the Bill, but it is clear in the 2013 Act what the strategy and purpose statement was supposed to be about, what its limitations were and what was supposed to be done.

One of the problems with that strategy and purpose statement was that it was written into the legislation as actionable by order of the Minister. That is, the Minister decided whether the strategy and purpose statement provision would be turned on once the Bill had been passed, and—well, I never—what happened subsequent to the 2013 passing is that the Government did not turn on that provision at any stage. That is why we are discussing a possible strategy and purpose clause arising from the Energy Act 2013. Ten years after that Act was passed, that section of the Act has still not been turned on.

It is good to hear that the Government are now—10 years later—consulting about whether to turn that section on, but it is not fair to say that the idea of a strategy and purpose statement for the purposes of the Bill has been covered by the Government seeking to consult about a strategy and purpose clause written in an Act 10 years ago for an entirely different purpose. It just does not match what we are trying to do with the provision today. As I have said, it should and will be the strategy and policy statement that encompasses what the Bill is trying to do, and all that goes into purpose clause—new clause 33—that we have tabled.

The Minister will be pleased to know that there is not within the clause a provision that allows the Minister to turn on or not the strategy policy statement subsequent to the first clause being agreed. New clause 34 actually states that:

“The Secretary of State may designate a statement”.

I am concerned about the words “may” and “must” in legislation, but I am assured by those who know more about it than I do that the word “may” in legislation contains only a small element of choice. For the Minister, it is a pretty strong direction that a strategy and policy statement will be made

“for the purposes of this Act.”.

I do not think we need to detain ourselves with the material that is in the other provisions we are considering. Members may read them at their leisure. They concern the period over which the strategy and policy statement is tenable for, assuming it is made, the provisions for review of that strategy policy statement, what notice needs to be given at the review, how those reviews need to be consulted on and how the review then takes its place subsequently in the passage of the Bill. We hope it survives as well as the Climate Change Act did post 2008.

Purpose clauses are important in legislation. And, as I have said, this purpose clause with a purpose is important because it provides for the action that the Secretary of State will need to take to make it real, over the many years that the Act will be with us. I commend our new clauses to the Committee. It may be argued that they are superfluous to a Bill that is already stuffed full of clauses, but they would bring everything together right at the beginning so as to show what the legislation does, and I am asking the Committee to consider whether that is a good or a bad thing. I overwhelmingly think that it is a good thing. I do not see anything in the new clauses that the Government could reject on the basis of their not being good. They may reject them on procedural grounds, but I do not think that that is necessary. I think that there are sufficient arguments in favour of the new clauses.

Is it a good idea to have a purpose clause at the beginning of the Bill? If so, is our proposed purpose clause the right approach or could improvements be made to it? We are open to any suggestions as to how it could be improved. Perhaps the Government will want to table their own amendments on Report, including for an improved purpose clause. We are anxious that the content of this new clause gets on to the statute book in one way or another. We look forward to further discussions about how it could be further strengthened to make the Bill even better for the future.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank the hon. Member for his careful and considered contribution, which reflected the careful and considered discussions that His Majesty’s loyal Opposition and the Government have been having on the Bill and on the wider issue of net zero and energy security over the past few months and years. He is absolutely right: this is not a partisan debate, and there is very little to distinguish the Opposition’s approach to this issue from that of the Government. We all agree that our overarching aims, though this Bill and through the other actions that we as a country are taking, are to reduce emissions, reduce bills, strengthen our energy security, and create and secure new British jobs in the process, which will be to the benefit of this country and help us to lead the way in the world.

The hon. Member spoke with great purpose. I find very little to disagree with in the substance of what he said about the purpose clause, but he also admitted that the Bill is stuffed full, to use his phrase, of clauses that explain exactly what we are striving to do. For that reason, I suggest that despite the good intentions behind this specific purpose clause, it would be superfluous to the Bill at this stage. However, it is something that we are willing to consider moving forward.

With regard to the hon. Member’s comments on the strategy and policy statement, the power of the 2013 Act was not specific to the measures contained in that Act but covered all of the Government’s strategic energy priorities. That is why we published the consultation on an SPS just 13 days ago.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Nearly 10 years later.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Well, we got around to it eventually. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun asked whether the strategy and policy statement covers Ofgem. Yes, it does, and Ofgem will have regard to the SPS consultation that we are working on right now.

As I said, we intend to designate a final strategy and policy statement by the end of this year. That will be a decision for Parliament, not the Secretary of State, whichever party the Secretary of State happens to be from at the time. The new clauses are therefore superfluous to the Bill, despite the fact that they are well intentioned and that there is very little in their contents that I can disagree with. That is why I ask the hon. Member for Southampton, Test not to press his new clauses.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

It would be difficult for him to do so, as they will be considered when we come to the relevant part of our discussion on the Bill. The question for now is that clause 1 stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 - Prohibition on unlicensed activities

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss clauses 3 to 6.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clauses 2 to 6 relate to the licensable activities for carbon dioxide transport and storage.

Clause 2 establishes the prohibition on the transport of carbon dioxide by pipeline and its geological storage without an economic license regulated by Ofgem. As carbon dioxide pipelines for storage and site infrastructure are likely to be operated as regional monopolies, a framework of economic licensing and regulation is designed to prevent anti-competitive behaviours. Licensable activities will initially include the transportation of carbon dioxide via onshore pipelines and offshore pipelines, and the operation of an associated geological storage facility. The clause enables other methods of transportation of carbon dioxide to become licensable activities, should that be considered appropriate as the carbon capture and storage market evolves.

Non-pipeline methods of transportation—shipping, road or rail—are expected to form part of wider carbon dioxide transport and storage networks. These methods of transport are particularly important for dispersed sites, where there are emitters who wish to have their carbon dioxide captured and transported for permanent storage, but are not suitably located to join a transport storage network by pipeline.

While non-pipeline methods of transport will have an important role in the development of carbon capture and storage networks, the Government consider that there is currently insufficient evidence to justify economically regulating non-pipeline methods of carbon dioxide transport. As those methods of transportation have differing characteristics from pipelines, with a potential lower cost of entry and an ability for multiple asset-running in parallel, competitive regional markets may emerge naturally for non-pipeline transportation of carbon dioxide. However, should competitive markets not emerge as anticipated, that may be rationale for future regulatory intervention. The ability of the Secretary of State to bring activities within the scope of the licensing framework is particularly important, given the financial support provided by the Exchequer to support carbon capture facilities and to ensure appropriate and effective protections can be put in place for users of the network.

I turn to clause 3. Any future use of the power established in clause 2 to extend the economic regulation framework to other methods of transporting carbon dioxide, should that be considered appropriate, would be subject to statutory consultation, as provided for in clause 3. Under the provisions of the clause, the Secretary of State is required to give notice of their intention to make regulations to extend the licensing framework to other methods of carbon dioxide transportation. That would include statutory consultation with the economic regulator to confirm the rationale for market intervention and consultation with the devolved Administrations.

Clause 4 sets out the territorial scope of the economic licensing framework for carbon dioxide transport and storage. The economic regulatory regime established by chapter 1 and part 1 of the Bill will extend to all parts of this United Kingdom. The licensing regime and economic regulation will also apply to transport and storage activities offshore, both in the UK’s territorial seas and in waters designated as a gas importation and storage zone under section 1(5) of the Energy Act 2008.

Clause 5 provides for the Secretary of State to grant exemptions from the requirement to hold a carbon dioxide transport and storage licence. That provision is important to ensure that the prohibition established by clause 2 operates effectively and as intended and does not, for example, impact or inhibit activities that it is not considered appropriate to economically regulate.

For example, exemptions are a means by which a small-scale operator would not be burdened by licensing costs and obligations that could be considered disproportionate to the scale of their operation. However, exemptions should not enable a competitive advantage over licensed operators. Exemptions will be set out in the way of regulations and may be granted either to a class of persons or to an individual person. A statutory consultation process is set out in the clause, to ensure that appropriate notice is given ahead of making exemption regulations and to allow for representations to be made.

Clause 6 provides for the Secretary of State, by way of regulations, to be able to vary, withdraw or revoke exemptions from the licensing requirements that have been granted under the provisions of clause 5. As market circumstances change, it is conceivable that certain activities, categories or classes of activity that are appropriately exempt from economic regulation in the early years of CCUS deployment may, as the sector matures, be considered more appropriate for licensing and regulation, or the particular activity that was subject to exemption may itself develop or change. That will ensure that any exemptions granted remain appropriate as the UK CCUS industry matures. I hope that the Committee will agree that clauses 2 to 6 should stand part of the Bill.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

rose—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

I call Alan Brown.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

rose—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Dr Alan Whitehead, do you wish to speak?

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I do, but—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Well, we need to decide which—I call Alan Brown.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

Thank you, Mr Gray. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I will just ask the Minister a few brief questions.

In clause 3, the consultation on proposals for additional activities sets a 28-day timeframe in which objections or representations can be made, and the clause details that the Secretary of State must consider those. However, there is no timeframe for the Secretary of State to respond, and there is nothing that actually details the process of how representations will be considered and responded to. Could the Minister give a bit more information on that?

Clause 3(3)(b) is about notice given to Scottish Ministers relating to devolved competences, so could the Minister give examples of the types of activities he envisages that covering? Also, what process will the Secretary of State follow in taking the views of the devolved Administrations?

That goes to the wider concern that I have already expressed about the UK Government having powers to interfere in what would usually be devolved competences. I know that it is slightly nuanced in this case, but I just want to flag that I do not want to later have lodge loads of amendments and force votes on replacing “consult” with “approval”. I know that it is slightly different at this stage, but could the Minister give details of what he thinks the activities would be? The same question applies to subsections of clause 5 and 6.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

I presume that His Majesty’s loyal Opposition wish to say something. I remind the Committee that when you wish to catch my eye, it is important to stand up and make it plain that you wish to speak. If you do not do so, I will not call you. I call Dr Alan Whitehead.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Thank you, Mr Gray, and I appreciate that undertaking. My knees do not necessarily work in the way that I would ideally like them to in my advanced years, but I will attempt to do that.

The clauses provide a pretty good start point on prohibition on unlicensed activities. Indeed, clause 2 states:

“It is an offence for a person to carry on an activity within subsection (2) unless the person is authorised to do so by a licence.”

Again, that is the whole licensing arrangement that pervades the energy sector. The clause then specifies the activities, including

“operating a site for the disposal of carbon dioxide by way of geological storage”,

and

“providing a service of transporting carbon dioxide by a licensable means of transportation.”

We tabled an amendment on the use of carbon dioxide, but we were assured by the Minister at that time that that would be effectively covered by the scope of this clause.

That is a great start, but then we move on to not just the consultations but, in clause 5, the exemption from prohibition. Interestingly, clause 5 states:

“The Secretary of State may by regulations grant exemption from the prohibition under section 2(1).”

It does not actually specify what those exemptions might be; it just states that the Secretary of State may by regulations grant exemption. I therefore presume that, within that secondary legislation, the Secretary of State will unpack and set out the exemptions, and indeed how far those exemptions might run. It is interesting that the Bill states:

“An exemption may be granted…unconditionally, or subject to such conditions as may be specified.”

I presume that those conditions will be specified in the regulations that the Secretary of State will be required to introduce in secondary legislation. It also states:

“An exemption may be granted…indefinitely, or…for a period specified in, or determined by or under, the exemption.”

That will also presumably be in the regulations.

The Minister says that at a future date we may wish to bring things that we exempt now under licensing arrangements. I am not immediately assured that that will be the case if an exemption is granted indefinitely in the regulations. Nor am I particularly assured by the fact that the Bill provides enormous leeway for a future Secretary of State to interpret the idea of exemption very widely or very narrowly. It does not give any examples of where exemptions might be agreed; it merely provides a mechanism to allow the Secretary of State to think about exemptions, and relies on the secondary legislation to either curtail or expand them as the Secretary of State sees fit.

Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)

I know that this is a lengthy Bill, and there is a lot to get through, but I slightly had trouble keeping up with the breakneck speed at which the Minister introduced the clauses, so I am glad to have an opportunity to question him. He said that although there will be instances where licences are not needed, the situation might change and a licence may be needed. It would be helpful to have some examples of those scenarios to illustrate when the Secretary of State might invoke these powers. Does my hon. Friend agree?

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Yes, indeed. My hon. Friend has read my mind, as she often does.

This clause is procedural, as I have illustrated, and essentially says: “There may be exemptions. We don’t know what they are or what they might consist of, but don’t worry about it. The Secretary of State will think about that in due course and produce regulation that we hope—but we don’t know—might set that out in greater detail.” It is important that the Minister sets out today what might be in his mind when he makes those regulations, as far as exemptions are concerned. Is he a wide exemption Minister or a narrow exemption Minister? If he is a wide exemption Minister, what is the scope of the exemptions that he will be thinking about? If he is a narrow scope Minister, how does he interpret subsection (7), which states that an exemption may be granted indefinitely, given what he just said about how things may change in the future?

I know that there are things that we thought were indefinite in legislation that have turned out not to be—most importantly because Parliament cannot decide what the previous Parliament thought. However, it seems to be a hostage to fortune to put the word “indefinitely” in this legislation in the way that we see in clause 5(7).

I would be grateful if the Minister could provide us with some thoughts on what exemptions might look like and what his intentions are as far as regulation is concerned. I have not looked yet at the end of the Bill to see how any regulations might be considered by Parliament, but when the Secretary of State makes regulations on exemptions, I would expect those to be put forward under the affirmative rather than the negative procedure so that we have an opportunity to examine what they consist of.

Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)

Clause 5(6) refers to “Notice of an exemption” being given. It would be helpful to have clarity on the reference to

“Other persons who may be affected by it.”

I am not sure how that would be decided. It is really important that we have transparency and accountability in these processes. Does my hon. Friend agree?

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Yes, I do agree. Again, I appreciate that the wording of this Bill might be regarded as necessarily fairly vague, because of the fact that—in the words of Donald Rumsfeld—there are known knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns about the future. However, it is important at least to have on the record something that guides us in a more positive way on who might be the “other” people affected and on indefinite exemptions and so on. It would be a good idea if that could at least be included in the discussion of the Bill.

By the way, our proceedings in Committee are of course recorded, and they are used on occasion in law to determine what the purpose of particular clauses was and what was thought to be in the mind of legislators when they introduced them. So it would be helpful, not just for our discussions today but perhaps for the future record, if the Minister was able to clarify these matters in a suitable way.

Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, for what will be a long and detailed consideration of the Bill.

I want to focus on these clauses, because they provide an overall setting for the entire agenda. As the hon. Member for Southampton, Test outlined, the Bill is perhaps one of the most important pieces of legislation to come before the House in the 21st century, as we look at how we deal with these issues for the rest of the 21st century—it really is that significant.

To draw on the hon. Gentleman’s comments about unknown knowns and so on, we have to be careful at this early stage that we do not regulate to the point that we choke off innovation and research. A complaint is often made at several levels about how difficult it can sometimes be in this country for innovators and entrepreneurs to move forward without getting tied up in huge amounts of red tape. Given the global competition that exists in the field of climate change, environment and green energy, we want to have a competitive advantage.

I am sure we will discuss later areas such as tax credits and how research and development can be expanded in this industry. The Bill is so wide-reaching, across so many Departments—indeed, you might rule us out of order as we consider it, Mr Gray—that I expect to be told once or twice that some provision is not the responsibility of the Minister. The Bill ties up so many areas of Government, including the Department for Business and Trade, the Treasury and the responsibilities of the Minister.

Therefore it is important that we do not try to license every possible outcome that we may consider at this stage. That would delay the process. Often, it is important to allow a Minister to make a reasonably quick decision as something comes to the fore, whether through secondary legislation or a delegated decision. If we look at America’s Inflation Reduction Act or the EU’s response to it, we know that we are in a highly competitive, subsidised market. I do not believe in the heavy subsidisation of companies; I believe in being able to exploit their intellectual capability to be innovative, to be world leading and to get things to market as quickly as possible. Having said that, later clauses of the Bill concern things, such as battery storage, about which I have great concerns and on which we probably need a bit more legislation. That is one of those areas that may well fall under a different Department, but it will be important to raise those issues in the context of the Bill.

I understand the desire to say, “We must try to use the Bill to offset any health and safety concerns that may come along, because we are in such a new technological area.” But when we look at the granting of licences in this part of the Bill, we would not want to choke off the innovators for which this country is well regarded in so many countries around the world. We are an innovative nation. We have the lead on innovation. China steals IT and reduces the cost of producing materials through poor wages and a disregard for health and safety, but it is not an innovator, which is what our universities and sectors work so well towards being.

The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam mentioned that she had spoken to the institutions in her great city. In a previous life, when I worked for the University of Leeds, I was involved in the early days of nanotech. We joined up all our seven major universities, including the universities in the hon. Lady’s city, and that accelerated Yorkshire’s ability to lead in nanotechnology. We could do that because we could draw those things together, bring the expertise together and accelerate it. Innovation hubs formed out of those universities in the early 2000s and gave us a leading edge, which we have used.

As legislators, we must try to ensure that we provide a framework for companies, innovators and researchers to work within. But that should not be prescribed in such a way that, when a product is ready to take to market, needs extra investment or needs to be able to work elsewhere, we have put a very tight pair of handcuffs on the ability to do those things. The premise of the Bill gives direction, but my hon. Friend the Minister should not make it so tight that we choke off the very things that we are trying to do.

We all talk about the huge potential investment in the green economy, about the green investment bank and about the massive changes that have taken place in the Treasury in recent years. Of course, we talk about having a smooth transition when there is a potential change of Government. That is why the Bill is so important and why I pushed to be on this Committee. The Bill is a major change that will stand this country—and indeed the world, if we can export some of the technology—in good stead in terms of achieving the better society we are trying to achieve on climate change. It is important that we go down this road, but let us not make the provisions so restrictive that we choke off the innovation at which this country excels.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions. I agree completely with my right hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell. Indeed, one example for an exemption would be to ensure that the regime is not overly burdensome—for example, smaller operators for whom a requirement to hold a licence, if operated, would be overly onerous. That is why the power is intended to allow exemptions from the requirement to hold a licence when an activity would otherwise fall into the prohibition that we do not think it would be technically or economically necessary to require a licence. That is not an original thought: it is the exact situation in the gas and electricity markets, as they stand right now. I cannot give any other specific examples, because we intend to engage with the market and with industry on potential classes of exemption before we bring forward the secondary legislation in that area. Under the provisions in the Bill, we will conduct a formal consultation process ahead of laying exemptions regulations.

On the consultation process, as the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun pointed out, there is no timeframe for the Secretary of State to respond; however, he is obliged to consider any representation or objection made. I am sure that the Department—especially myself—will be keen to keep him updated on progress with any response to the consultation.

On consultation with Scottish Government and Welsh Government Ministers regarding the Bill, we will cover that in greater detail as we proceed through the Bill. I have already met my counterpart in Edinburgh and yesterday met virtually my counterpart in the Welsh Government. We are discussing how best to proceed with consulting on the nature of the Bill. As I referred to earlier, the differences between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations mirror the differences between the Opposition and Government, in that we are all very much in agreement on the broad scope of the Bill and on a huge majority of what we seek to do through it. I look forward to working constructively with Ministers and colleagues in Holyrood and Cardiff, so that we can get the balance right and move forward in a way that is good for the entire United Kingdom. That is why I recommend the Committee to agree that clauses 2 to 6 stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7 - Power to grant licences

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clause 7 provides the economic regulator, Ofgem, with the power to grant licences that permit the carrying out of carbon dioxide transport and storage activities and charging for transport and storage activities. It is the Government’s intention that in the enduring regulatory regime, Ofgem is responsible for rewarding carbon dioxide transport and storage licences. The Government’s CCUS cluster sequencing process will identify the first CCUS clusters eligible for government support and the first transport and storage operators to be granted an economic licence.

Through clause 16 and schedule 1 the Bill provides for the Secretary of State to grant the first licences. That is appropriate, given that Exchequer support will be available to the first clusters. Although it will be the Secretary of State who makes the decision to grant the first licences, once a licence has been granted Ofgem will assume full regulatory oversight of the licences. Following the initial cluster sequencing process, our procedure for future licence applications is expected to be developed, taking into account learnings from the sequencing processes that have gone before. That is provided for in the next clause.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I do not have anything much to say about clause 7 standing part. I will have some things to say about some of the clauses that follow, but the power to grant licences is pretty unexceptional, and we do not have anything to add or take away from the clause.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

Unusually, I will speak for longer than the hon. Gentleman—I say that just as everybody was getting excited. I understand that clause 7 and subsequent clauses on granting licences and the economic models are critical to getting carbon capture up and running. Obviously, I want these provisions in place, but I ask the Minister for a bit more detail.

Clause 7 is all about the grant of licences, which is to be undertaken by the regulator. That will be Ofgem, as was said earlier in response to an intervention. The Minister assures us that it has the expertise and resource to do all the additional licensing work, but we discover in the explanatory notes for clause 7 that under clause 16, for an interim period, it is actually the Secretary of State who has responsibility for granting licences. Why is that? Why have the interim period? What expertise is available to the Secretary of State in-house when they are granting these licences? Who will oversee that? How long does the interim period last? From what I can see in schedule 1, it lasts until the Secretary of State passes regulations to end the interim period. I would like a bit more clarity on how long the interim period will last.

Is the interim period and the granting of licences by the Secretary of State a mechanism to speed up the grant of licences for track 1 projects that have already been selected by the Government? Does that not potentially give them an unfair financial advantage? The Minister touched, in his opening remarks, on competition for licensing and keeping everything competitive. How does he square these two things?

When does the Minister envisage the first licences being granted by the Secretary of State, and when does he envisage them being granted by the regulator? How will the licences that are issued in the interim period be compliant with clause 12, which is still to come and is all about standardisation? That helps to keep things competitive and transparent.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his multiple questions. Given the number of them, I will write to him with greater detail, but the point at which the Secretary of State’s power to grant licences is transferred to Ofgem will depend on developments in the market in the early years of the operation and the evolution of carbon capture, usage and storage. We are in the nascent stages of this technology. It is standard practice for the Secretary of State to have a power over something like this before it is transferred across to Ofgem. As I said, the timing will depend on market forces as the technology develops and matures.

The hon. Gentleman asked when the first licences will be granted. Licences will be granted to transport and storage operators for track 1 CCS clusters for deployment in the mid-2020s, subject to the final decision of Ministers. The final decisions on any Government support will be taken only if a CCS cluster represents value for money for the consumer and the taxpayer. He referred to subsequent clauses that deal with these issues directly; we will come to his other questions when we debate those clauses, and I will be happy to engage in more detail then.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

What is going on when it comes to the Department and Ofgem building up and sharing expertise? They are both looking at licensing. As the Minister said, with this nascent technology, there is a whole ramping up, so we need to ensure that the right resource is allocated to the right place to move forward.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I completely agree. We will share expertise with Ofgem as we move forward. This is a whole new technology being deployed in the United Kingdom, and the expertise being developed in the Department will of course be shared with Ofgem, so that when the regulator takes responsibility for licensing, it will have at its fingertips the ability to conduct the processes properly.

Clause 8 - Power to create licence types

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

The clause enables different types of carbon dioxide transport and storage licences to be granted. That will enable the economic licensing framework for carbon dioxide transport and storage to evolve as the market grows and matures.

For the first carbon dioxide transport and storage networks, a cluster-based approach is being taken. Under that approach, the licences for the first transport and storage networks are expected to cover the full network, which includes a set of onshore pipelines, the offshore pipeline and associated offshore storage facilities. As the market matures, however, we recognise that it may become desirable to licence separately constituent parts of a network, such as an onshore pipeline network or an offshore geological storage site. It may be appropriate for licence conditions to look quite different for different transport and storage activities. Providing for that will allow operators to specialise in provision of different transport and storage services. The delegated power under the clause enables the regulatory regime to respond to market developments by allowing different licence types to be created and granted for different types of transport and storage facility. I commend the clause to the Committee.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Dr Whitehead?

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I am attempting to get to my feet, Mr Gray.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

You do not have to, but you can do.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

My knees get worse as the afternoon goes on.

The clause is, as the Minister said, about the power to create a licence type. I appreciate that that is in the gift of the Secretary of State in the first instance; the power will be transferred subsequently, as we said when debating clause 7. This clause, however, appears to do two things, and possibly goes far wider than the Minister envisages. It allows for regulations so that

“different types of licence may be granted…in respect of different descriptions of activity falling within section 2(2).”

Clause 2(2), as we have discussed, defines activities that are prohibited if unlicensed. Those are:

“operating a site for the disposal of carbon dioxide by way of geological storage”;

and

“providing a service of transporting carbon dioxide by a licensable means of transportation”.

We mentioned the possibility of an amendment that would have covered carbon dioxide usage as well, as the Minister will be aware. The power under clause 8 would allow different licence types within that overall framework. As the Minister said, different activities may emerge. Various activities will fall well within clause 2(2), and others will be to the side of that.

As far as I can see, the power in clause 8 allows the Secretary of State to sweep up what is both central to and to the side of the activities in clause 2(2). That may be good for the Secretary of State, but it is not good for the companies developing carbon capture and storage, who are not sure whether this power will or will not sweep them up—they do not know. They are not sure whether the activity they are carrying out on the margins of the licensing arrangement is non-licensable, or will become licensable if and when the Secretary of State decides by regulation that different kinds of licences can be provided. A lot of that depends on what the regulations say. If they are broad, as this power to create licence types appears to be, companies will not have any assurances about what they are doing. When the regulations come out, they might prefer a menu of the different licence types in the Secretary of State’s mind.

I appreciate that we are in the realm of known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns, but a menu of different licence types that are reasonably close to licensability in the mind of the Secretary of State would be very helpful for companies operating in this sphere. Will they be more or less likely to need to apply for a license? Would the licensing situation hold up their activities in any way, or could they go ahead with what they were doing on the margins, not within the new license type? Could the Minister comment on what is in his mind about the regulations? Will he provide that menu? If so, what might it consist of?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank the hon. Member for his questions. I do not think the former Defence Secretary of the United States would have expected to be mentioned so much in the UK’s Energy Bill Committee—we have talked about known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns. The hon. Member is correct: we are dealing with a lot of unknown unknowns when we talk about exactly how and when the industry and technology will develop. As they develop, a decision will be taken at an appropriate point about what will and will not be licensable, and what types of licence will and will not apply.

The hon. Member talks about the regulations and whether there will be a menu of options. Clarity is good for everyone, especially when developing a new technology and deciding whether to invest in carbon capture, usage and storage. We will be as clear as we can in regulations about what will and will not be licensable and what licences will apply. However, I would not like to be drawn at this stage on what will be in the regulations. That will be for Government and industry to work up together as we move toward the date when they will apply.

Clause 9 - Procedure for licence applications

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I beg to move amendment 77, in clause 9, page 10, line 6, after “the Secretary of State” insert

“must ensure that licences are only granted to fit and proper persons, and”.

The aim of this amendment is to put the onus on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual as “fit and proper”.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 78, in clause 18, page 19, line 33, at end insert—

“(c) may only be transferred to a person the Secretary of State considers to be a fit and proper person for this purpose.”

The aim of this amendment is to put the onus on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual as “fit and proper”.

Amendment 79, in clause 43, page 39, line 16, at end insert

“provided that the transferee is considered by the Secretary of State to be a fit and proper person for this purpose”.

The aim of this amendment is to put the onus on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual as “fit and proper”.

Amendment 80, in clause 50, page 45, line 35, after “any” insert “fit and proper”.

The aim of this amendment is to put the onus on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual as “fit and proper”.

Amendment 82, in clause 61, page 54, line 16, after “given to a” insert “fit and proper”.

The aim of this amendment is to put the onus on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual as “fit and proper”.

Amendment 83, in clause 61, page 55, line 5, at end insert

“provided that the transferee is considered by the Secretary of State to be a fit and proper person for this purpose”.

This amendment refers specifically to the need for the hydrogen counter party to be a fit and proper person. The aim of this amendment is to put the onus on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual as “fit and proper”.

Amendment 87, in clause 82, page 71, line 42, at end insert—

“(l) for the certification by the Secretary of State that the transferee is a fit and proper person.”

If the Secretary of State needs to find a new counterparty this amendment obligates that they must ensure they are a fit and proper person.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Amendment 77 concerns licences being granted to fit and proper persons; the other amendments relate to matters such as the transfer of licences. Members may think that the application of the term “fit and proper” to licensing arrangements is pretty obscure, but I will try to disabuse them of that notion. The term “fit and proper” can apply to both a real person and a person in law, which can be a company or an organisation. It appears in a number of laws and regulations where the Government or a regulator have a responsibility for appointing or licensing individuals or companies.

There was an explosion of new energy companies on to the market a few years ago, and as we know, that led, among other things, to a massive de-explosion of those energy companies a little while afterwards, when they did not really pass the test of hard times. A number of companies went bust, and people then said to the regulator, “A number of these companies should never have got into retailing energy,” because of issues to do with their directors, or the way they were set up, or the way their organisation functioned. If there had been a fit and proper persons test in the relevant legislation, it may well have prevented at least some of that.

Let me give an example of how a fit and proper person test works. The Financial Conduct Authority uses a fit and proper person test to assess whether an individual is suitable to perform a controlled or senior management function in an authorised body. Its test assesses whether that person

“has obtained a qualification…has undergone, or is undergoing, training…possesses a level of competence”

and

“has the personal characteristics”

required. However, the test goes on to say that

“In the FCA’s view, the most important considerations will be the person’s:

(1) honesty, integrity and reputation;

(2) competence and capability; and

(3) financial soundness.”

That, of course, is a test for a real person, but those principles ought to apply to bodies seeking licences for carbon capture and storage activities.

That fit and proper persons test has been extended. I was on the Public Bill Committee for the National Security and Investment Act 2021, which, among other things, considers circumstances where investment is effectively taken over by a foreign power that might be not very friendly towards the UK. For example, a foreign power might take over intellectual property, and then the question might arise as to whether the property’s owner, in the shape of a company or organisation, was fit and proper. We know that across the world there are a number of front companies that carry out foreign powers’ activities in particular countries. The 2021 Act extended the fit and proper persons test to include those sorts of considerations.

Let us say that a company appeared to be conducting carbon capture and storage activities, simply to steal the IP of what was going on and use it for other purposes. Under the 2021 Act, the company could fail the fit and proper persons test. In the Bill, however, we have no mention of that phrase, which is now reasonably well-trodden in parts of Government, including the health service. It is a phrase that has case law attached to it and is a reliable piece of wording. Far be it from the Opposition to give the Government more powers, but the phrase would give the Secretary of State a pre-emptive ability to assess what is going on with the operation of the licence at a very early stage. We would then not have to pick up the pieces afterwards; we could put the pieces together before we even started.

The fit and proper persons test is pretty proof against judicial review and various other things, and it is well established as a phrase. What we have done in the amendments is try to introduce that phrase as a part of the process of granting a licence. I will not go into detail, but other amendments mention the phrase when we come to clauses on transferring the licence, for example—where a licence exists with one organisation and is transferred to someone else. The Secretary of State can then take a judgment as to whether that transferee is fit and proper to take over the licence. That means we do not get a situation where a licence starts with a reliable body but is subsequently transferred to an unreliable body, or even one where the whole thing is a bit of a front, in that one person applied for a licence and then another operated it as soon as it was granted.

The amendments give a substantial degree of security to the Secretary of State in the granting, transfer and operation of licences. Of course, I assume that the arrangement would and could be transferred to Ofgem at the point where the licences, when they become more quotidian, would be operated under delegated authority by Ofgem, with the approval of the Secretary of State. Amendment 77 is a modest but helpful small amendment to the Bill, and one that I hope the Minister will react positively to—or possibly even say, “This is great. Let’s put it in the legislation right now.”

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his amendments. They seek to place responsibility on the Secretary of State to ensure that individuals obtaining a carbon dioxide transfer and storage licence are fit and proper. The amendments would affect the licence application, the licence transfer, the special administrative regime and transfer schemes.

It is clear that the Opposition and the Government share the same desire here, requiring the utmost standards for those wishing to engage in the transport and storage of carbon dioxide, in support of the Government’s ambitions to scale up the deployment of CCUS and its important role of achieving our net zero target. I therefore support the hon. Member for Southampton, Test’s aim; however, as addressed in the other place, the specific inclusion of “fit and proper” within the drafting of clauses across part 1 is actually unnecessary. That assurance is already inherent within the Secretary of State and the economic regulator’s role within the licensing regime. Despite sharing the desire, I ask for the amendment to be withdrawn because I believe that it is superfluous in this instance.

Amendments 82, 83 and 87, which were also tabled by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, seek to make the Secretary of State responsible for ensuring that an individual designated as a hydrogen production counterparty is deemed “fit and proper”. The Government anticipate that the Low Carbon Contracts Company Ltd, or LCCC, which is the existing counterparty for contracts for difference and the planned counterparty for the dispatchable power agreement, will be the counterparty for the low-carbon hydrogen agreement, subject to its successful completion of administrative and legislative amendments.

In taking the decision to proceed with LCCC as the counterparty to the low-carbon hydrogen agreement, the Secretary of State considered, among other things, LCCC’s ability to deliver the required functions and its experience and track record in contract management. Those considerations would bear on any future decisions, which would also be subject to normal principles of public decision making. Again, I agree with and share the same aim and desire as the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, but the amendments are superfluous. I politely ask that he withdraw his amendment.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

Naturally, the fact that the Minister did not eagerly grasp and endorse the substance of the amendments and run off to the Table Office is disappointing, but I accept that he has perhaps looked in detail at how the legislation will work and is satisfied that an equivalent of the “fit and proper person” test can effectively be carried out under the provisions of the Bill. However, that has not been the judgment of other parts of Government, which have found that particular wording to be of great help in underlining what their responsibilities are. It also ensures that the judgments that they make in exercising their responsibilities are fairly bomb-proof: if the Secretary of State presses the “fit and proper person” button, there is not too much an aggrieved party can do about it. I appreciate that that is different for different licences.

The Government have effectively decided that the LCCC, which I think is a fit and proper person, will be the hydrogen counterparty, although that is still to come in legislation—so we are legislating for something that we think will happen later, but not right this minute. I leave that with the Minister. He has not agreed to amendment 77; he thinks it superfluous. I slightly disagree—I think it would be useful—but that is to some extent a matter of judgment. Perhaps in a few years’ time, when a Minister becomes seriously unstuck with a particular appointment, we will get together again and see what can be done about it. For now, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 9, page 10, line 15, leave out subsection (10) and insert—

“(10) Section 10(6) (meaning of ‘appropriate devolved authorities’) applies for the purposes of subsection (3) of this section as it applies for the purposes of section 10(3).”

This amendment corrects a drafting error in the definition of “appropriate devolved authorities”.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 9 stand part.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank the hon. Member for Southampton, Test and share his optimism that in a few years’ time we will be in a position to continue with appointments in relation to what we are legislating for today.

Amendment 1 corrects a drafting error in relation to the statutory basis on which the devolved Administrations are to be consulted in relation to regulations that may be made under the powers in part 1. The amendment ensures that the statutory basis for consultation is consistent across the drafting of the relevant clauses.

I turn to clause 9. The Government’s CCUS cluster sequencing programme is under way to identify the first CCUS clusters eligible for Government support. The first transport and storage licences will be granted through that process. The enduring regulatory regime will need a licence application process, and clause 9 provides for such a process to be set out in regulations. The process includes the procedure for licence applications, the conditions under which the applications may be made and the procedure for objecting to licence applications.

Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)

I was waiting for the Minister to mention the word “fee”, and he did not. I apologise for coming in right at the last moment, but clause 9 says that a fee would be payable. I know that the Minister spoke earlier about the need to avoid unnecessary burdens on some of the smaller companies that might come forwards. Does he envisage that the fee would be proportional to the size of the enterprise or would a fixed amount apply to everybody? Is that being considered?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I can confirm that it is very much being considered. It will certainly be proportional to the size of the entity that might be applying for such a licence.

Clause 10 - Competitive tenders for licences

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clause 10 enables the future allocation of carbon dioxide transport and storage licences to be determined on a competitive basis. The Government’s current carbon capture, usage and storage cluster sequencing programme is a fair and transparent process. It determines which operators of carbon dioxide transport and storage projects are eligible to be granted a transport and storage licence and any associated Government support according to published criteria.

The future process for granting licences will need to balance a range of considerations and, depending on the evolution of the sector, it may be appropriate for it to be carried out according to competitive procedure. The power to make regulations in clause 10 enables that. It is a discretionary power; while a competitive approach may bring overall value for money and benefits for taxpayers and consumers—

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

Can I ask about the overall sequencing? We have the track 1 costs at the moment, but we still do not have certainty on track 2. We are talking about future tenders and competitiveness. Clearly, at the moment only the ones in track 1 can effectively apply for licences. If we are looking for overall value for money, surely we need to completely open the field, as it were, so that we have more companies and projects competing and pushing each other on that competitive cost base as well.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have launched a track 2 process; there will be an update on timings in the summer. Of course, we want to open up the process to as many companies and organisations seeking to get into this technology as possible, but it is really important that the appropriate steps are followed to get to that stage. That is why we are proceeding at pace with track 2 and why we will update everybody concerned with that in the summer.

Whether a competitive process is appropriate in the enduring regime will depend on how the CCUS market develops, including the anticipated number of market participants—that relates to the answer I just gave to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun. Any regulations that may be made under the power would first be subject to consultation with the economic regulator and the devolved Administrations, and they would be subject to the affirmative procedure.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

This is a bit unsatisfactory, to be honest. I appreciate that the Minister has very carefully said that this is a discretionary power for the future and the Department may, as the CCUS market develops, consider making—I presume—some licences viable on a competitive basis, and that the Government may do that by regulation; I am pleased to hear that the regulation will be subject to the affirmative procedure, should the Government do that. Nevertheless, that seems to leave huge gaps in the procedure by which competitive licences might be determined. Is the determination based on, for example, how much money a company gives for the licence, and would the competitive licence mean that the highest bidder won the licence regardless of their suitability for the purpose?

Would the judgment on the creation of the licence be subsumed in other factors such as finances, or would the competitive licence be tendered on the basis of who is geographically most able to do something in terms of the viability of the body or company complying with a licence? Would there be a financial test? Once a competition has been entered into and the terms are not carefully set, we may get to a situation of “Beware your wishes; they may come true.” What we get as an outcome of a competitive tender may not be what we wanted to happen, but if we set it in train through the competitive process and have not defined it carefully enough, there will be no going back at that point.

It will be necessary to think through this way of doing things very carefully before proceeding, even with discretion being exercised. I am concerned that there is not enough in the legislation to guide us on how that thinking process might be carried out. Perhaps the Minister will give us a little guidance on the sort of things that would be to the fore should the competitiveness process be undertaken, and indeed the things that he would not consider in such a process. I am delighted to see that he has received bit of guidance on the matter. That may well help us all.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I thank the hon. Member, and completely understand his concerns and where he is coming from. Ultimately, however, the appropriateness of a competitive approach to licence allocation will be considered, taking into account the learning from both the track 1 and the ongoing track 2 licence allocation processes, as well as the wider developments in CCUS markets and technology. This is not without precedent. In gas and electricity, Ofgem runs different processes for allocating different licence types. Some are allocations that are run competitively, such as offshore transmission licences, and other licence types are not.

The power in clause 8 also enables consequential amendments to be made to the Bill should they be considered necessary to facilitate the making of different licence types, but as the hon. Member pointed out, and as I said, the power is discretionary, and it should be for the Secretary of State to choose whether to exercise such powers.

Clause 11 - Conditions of licences: general

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clause 11 makes general provisions regarding the conditions of transport and storage economic licences. The licence allows an operator to charge network users for delivering and operating the network. The licence conditions will set out the allowed revenue that the licence holder is entitled to receive, which will reflect its efficient cost and a reasonable return on its capital investment. The conditions of the licence will also include requirements on the licence holder that they must comply with or consent to.

In order that the economic regulator may cover the cost of administering the licence, the clause additionally confirms that the licence may contain conditions requiring a payment to be made to the economic regulator during the term of the licence. Any money received by the economic regulator pursuant to the conditions must be paid into the consolidated fund.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

Will the Minister give way?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Yes, I will.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

I thank the Minister for giving way; I noticed an eye-roll, though.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Nothing personal.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

The Minister referred to the regulator assessing the allowable rate of returns in a fair chance model. How does that square with the interim period when the Secretary of State will grant licences? How do you make that assessment of value for money and fair returns, and will there be any scope to revisit that? If we look at networks and transmission systems, Ofgem had to reduce the allowable rate of returns in the next investment period, because it had been allowing network companies to make too much money. What safeguards are there to ensure that there is a review following an initial assessment of what would be a fair rate of return?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

The hon. Gentleman makes reasonable and sensible points. He is right that we have to ensure that the same regulations that will apply to Ofgem when it administers the process in future apply also to the Secretary of State and the Department when administering it in the interim. He is right, too, that there need to be safeguards and that Parliament overall will have responsibility for holding the Department to account—as it does the Government, in every respect, when it comes to making such decisions. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Clause 12 - Standard conditions of licences

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

A number of conditions will be appropriate to include as standard in all licences of the relevant type. The power in clause 12 enables the Secretary of State to specify what those standards are. The Secretary of State will be required to publish the standard conditions in an appropriate manner once they have been determined, and they will then be automatically included when a licence is granted.

To allow for the possibility that the standard conditions may need to be tailored to the circumstances of a particular licensee, the clause also enables standard conditions to be either excluded or amended in an individual licence. That can be done only if both the licence holder in question and other holders of the same licence type would not be unduly disadvantaged as a result.

Notice must be given of the intent to modify or exclude standard conditions in an individual licence, setting out the proposed modifications or omissions and the reasons for them, with sufficient opportunity for representations or objections to be made. Any objections or representations must be fully considered. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

The Minister has set out what the standard conditions of licences are likely to be and how they are going to be determined by the Secretary of State, but the clause goes a bit further than that. It says in subsection (2) that

“the Secretary of State must”

—that is a good thing—

“publish any standard conditions determined under subsection (1)”,

which says:

“The Secretary of State may determine the conditions that are to be the standard conditions of licences”,

and subsection (2) then says the Secretary of State must publish the conditions

“in whatever manner the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”

That is a bit of an odd formulation. I am more used to the idea that the Secretary of State must publish any standard conditions determined under subsection (1)—full stop.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I am happy to give that assurance that the information will be published, widespread and easily accessible while that power resides with the Secretary of State. Of course, as has already been said, it will be up to Parliament—as is the case with every other piece of legislation—to hold the Government and the Secretary of State, whoever may be in that post at the time, to account when that time arises.

Clause 13 - Modification of conditions of licences

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to consider clauses 14 and 15 stand part.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clauses 13 to 15 relate to the modification of licences for carbon dioxide transport and storage.

Clause 13 enables the economic regulator to modify the conditions of a licence after it has been granted. That is to ensure that licence conditions can keep pace with the evolution of the market. It also enables the economic regulator to undertake periodic reviews of the amount of allowed revenue an operator can receive, which will then be set out in the licence. In economically regulated sectors, price controls are a method of setting the amount of allowed revenue that can be earned by network companies over the length of a given period. Regulated companies then recover their allowed revenues through the charges they set.

Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)

Does my hon. Friend agree that clause 13 is about precisely what I was touching on earlier? It is important to have the flexibility in the legislation to adapt as technology and innovation adapt too.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Yes, I agree with my right hon. Friend. It is precisely about what he was touching on earlier: we are able to provide in the legislation the flexibility to allow the technologies for which we are legislating the space to grow, develop and become commercially viable. That is why it is essential to strike the balance between regulation and ensuring freedom for companies to operate. That is exactly why we would like the clause to stand part of the Bill.

As I was saying, allowed revenues must be set at a level that covers the companies’ costs and allows them to earn a reasonable return, subject to their delivering value for consumers, behaving efficiently and achieving their targets as set by the economic regulator. The amount of allowed revenue that an operator is able earn is set out in the licence conditions, which will need to be updated to reflect the outcomes of the periodic regulatory reviews and to keep pace with the evolution of the market more broadly. The power provides for the economic regulator to make such licence modifications, subject to an appropriate consultation process.

Before making any modifications to licence conditions, the economic regulator must give notice of the proposed modifications, the rationale for them, and an appropriate timeframe within which representations may be made. Any representations that are made must be duly considered. As Exchequer support will be available to certain users of the networks, the Secretary of State must be consulted on licence modification proposals and retains the power to direct that a modification may not be made.

Should the Secretary of State object to a particular modification, the economic regulator would need to consider whether to pursue the modification in an alternative form, which would require restarting the process of notifying and consulting on the new proposals. As is the case in other regulated sectors, licensees should have the right of appeal regarding modifications that are made to licences after they have been granted. The Bill provides for that later in chapter 1.

Clause 14 requires that, where the economic regulator has made a licence modification under clause 13 to a standard licence condition, the standard conditions of all future licences of that type should similarly be modified. That ensures a consistent approach to standard conditions across licences of the same type.

Clause 15 makes provisions for the Competition and Markets Authority or, as may be the case, the Secretary of State, to modify licence conditions in specific circumstances in relation to company mergers. Where there is a merger between licensed entities, that may necessitate licence modifications to ensure compliance with competition law. The power enables the CMA or the Secretary of State to modify licence conditions accordingly. I commend the clauses to the Committee.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I have a question more than anything. Will the Minister state on the record this afternoon who the economic regulator actually is? The reason why I ask is that there does not seem to be any definition in the Bill of who the economic regulator is. It appears to be the CMA, but it might not be, because clause 20, on “Appeal to the CMA”, is under the heading “Appeal from decisions of the economic regulator”, so those do not appear to be the same thing in the Bill’s construction. It is not further defined, so perhaps the Minister will clarify that for us.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I am happy to clarify that the economic regulator to which I and the Bill refer is of course Ofgem. Appeal to the CMA relates to what I have just discussed: occasions when there is a merger between two licensed entities, which may necessitate modifications. That is where the CMA comes into it. To be absolutely clear, Ofgem is the economic regulator.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I point out, therefore, that there are inconsistent references to Ofgem, to the CMA and to the economic regulator. They are one and the same but referred to in different ways in different parts of the Bill. That might be a drafting issue more than anything else.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I have just been reminded by my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield that clause 1 sets out that the economic regulator to which we refer is Ofgem.

Clause 16 - Interim power of Secretary of State to grant licences

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government amendment 2.

That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

The clause and schedule 1 provide the Secretary of State with the power to grant carbon dioxide transport and storage licences during an interim period, as has been discussed already this afternoon.

In the enduring regulatory regime, we expect the economic regulator to take decisions on who should be granted a carbon dioxide transport and storage licence. That is provided for by clause 7. However, it is the Secretary of State who will determine the first carbon dioxide transport and storage networks to be granted a licence—through the Government’s CCUS cluster sequencing programme—and the terms and conditions of those licences. That is appropriate given the Exchequer support available to the first CCUS clusters.

The CCUS cluster sequencing process is specifically designed for first-of-a-kind projects. The interim period during which the Secretary of State has the power to award licences will end on a date to be set in regulations, once the industry is sufficiently mature. After that interim period, the economic regulator will have sole power to grant licences.

Government amendment 2 corrects a cross-reference and renumbers a subsection in schedule 1 to ensure that the schedule is read correctly. Schedule 1 provides the Secretary of State with the power to grant carbon dioxide transport and storage licences during an interim period. The interim period during which the Secretary of State has the power to award licences will end on a date to be set in regulations made under schedule 1, once the industry is sufficiently mature. I think that answers some of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun earlier. After that interim period, the economic regulator, Ofgem, will have sole power to grant licences. I commend the clause and the schedule to the Committee.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

The clause itself is brief, but refers to schedule 1 and to the interim power of the Secretary to State to grant licences. As the Minister said, that power will come to an end on a date to be determined at a point when the industry is well established and the Secretary of State therefore no longer has to exercise the interim power. Who decides when the industry is well established? If that is the Secretary of State, is it not a rather circular way of bringing to an end the power of the Secretary of State to grant licences on an interim basis? If the Secretary of State decides that the industry is not that well established, he or she will presumably continue to grant interim licences forever.

Presumably, we want to reach a point when the Secretary of State does not grant licences in his or her own right and Ofgem or the economic regulator does, but we do not appear to have any mechanism in the Bill, other than something to be determined at a particular date, whereby the Secretary of State switches off his or her own power and switches on an Ofgem power. It would be helpful if the Minister could clarify that. There may be something in the legislation that I have not noticed, but it appears from schedule 1 and the clause that there is not a clear switch-off mechanism, other than the intention to do so when the market is mature.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

To follow on from that point, and the point that I made earlier, I know that the Minister said that he would write to us, but I am interested in how he envisages the sequencing and the interim period coming to an end. Although he said that in terms of value for money it is up to Parliament, and us as parliamentarians, to hold the Government to account, if the interim period goes on for a long while and individual licences are granted effectively on an ad hoc basis, it will be almost impossible for parliamentarians to hold the Secretary of State to account. We will continually be told that the information is commercially sensitive, so we will be unable to access it. I want a bit more clarity on how this will all come together in a more transparent manner.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

To address the points made by the hon. Members for Southampton, Test and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, we recognise that visibility and clarity are of the utmost importance when talking to industry and, indeed, the wider country about where we are headed regarding CCUS. I can think of nothing that the Secretary of State, whoever that might be, would like more than to be able to give the power to Ofgem to determine licences. However, that depends on just how mature the sector is and the stage at which the Secretary of State determines it to be right.

The point about clarity, which I have just mentioned, is important. That is why my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) mentioned in his net zero review in March the need for a road map for CCUS. The Department agrees that that is important. We have committed to setting out a vision for the CCUS sector. That work is ongoing, and we will keep stakeholders and parliamentarians updated as we work up our road map and increase the clarity on where we are headed, and to what timescale, and when we expect such a transition period, during which the Secretary of State will hold that power, to come to end.

Schedule 1

Clause 17 - Termination of licence

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

The terms and conditions of the economic licence will set out the circumstances in which the regulator would revoke or terminate a carbon dioxide transport and storage licence. Such circumstances may include those where a licence holder has contravened or failed to comply with enforcement orders, ceased to carry on as a transport and storage business, or sadly become insolvent.

The clause requires that where a licence termination scenario has arisen, or is likely to arise, the regulator must notify those who are most likely to be affected by a decision to terminate a licence. That will include notifying the relevant carbon storage licensing authority—which may be either the North Sea Transition Authority or Scottish Ministers, Welsh Ministers, or the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland—where a storage licence is also in place.

It also includes notifying the Secretary of State who, depending on the circumstances, may consider it to be in the public interest to use the powers in chapters 4 or 5 of the Bill to secure the continued operation of the network. Those powers enable the Secretary of State to enact a statutory transfer scheme to transfer the licence and its associated property and rights to another operator to maintain ongoing operations.

If the licence is to be terminated due to company insolvency, the Secretary of State has the option to apply to the courts for a special administration order. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

The clause concerns termination events, stating:

“If the economic regulator considers that a termination event has arisen, or is likely to arise, the economic regulator must notify the persons mentioned in subsection (2) as soon as reasonably practicable.”

The Minister has given company insolvency as an example of a possible termination event, but I am sure he will agree that there are a number of others.

Subsection (5) says that a

“‘termination event’ means a state of affairs in which the economic regulator is authorised to revoke the licence.”

That explains precisely nothing; it does not give examples of termination events or explain the circumstances in which the economic regulator is authorised to revoke a licence. It does not take us very far.

Is there a roster of termination events? Is there a list of likely termination events that the Minister could put into a menu? Insolvency is one such event, but I can think of a number of other circumstances in which termination may take place either voluntarily or involuntarily. For example, a company may request that the regulator terminate its licence, stating that it cannot carry on with its licence arrangement for reasons other than insolvency.

The clause does not list any circumstances that could constitute a termination event. Is the Minister satisfied that the rather circular definition in the clause is sufficient? Or does he think that more clarity on what a termination event could constitute and how one might be dealt with is required?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. However, I think it is fairly well recognised and understood within the industry that the termination of a licence will come in the event that a licence holder ceases to carry on as a transport and storage business and therefore no longer requires a licence; if it becomes insolvent; or if it contravenes or fails to comply with enforcement orders made by the economic regulator or, in certain situations, the courts. I am not sure what would be added by setting that out in the Bill. I suspect that it is fairly well understood across the industry.

To answer the question of what would happen in the event of licence termination, the Bill provides certain step-in rights for the Secretary of State in a licence termination scenario to be able to transfer the ongoing operation of the transport and storage network to another operator or, where that is not possible, to ensure the safe decommissioning of the infrastructure. If a licence is terminated because of the insolvency of a transport and storage company, the Bill enables the application of a special administration regime to support the ongoing operation of the transport and storage network, prioritising its rescue as a going concern and securing the ongoing safety and security of the network. I reassure the hon. Gentleman that a great deal of consideration has gone into this specific element of the Bill, and we are happy that it is clear in its intent.

Clause 18 - Transfer of licences

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 19 stand part.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

We are powering our way through this afternoon. Clause 18 enables carbon dioxide transport and storage licences to be transferred from one legal entity to another, subject to the consent of the economic regulator, Ofgem. Carbon dioxide transport and storage licences will be granted to a legal entity, and they cannot be bought or sold separate from that legal entity. Circumstances may arise in which it is appropriate or necessary to transfer a licence to another legal entity, and the clause provides for that. For example, a licence may need to be transferred as a result of a company merger or acquisition, or a company restructuring, where the legal entity that is proposed to carry on the licensable activity is not the same legal entity to which the licence was awarded. A transfer may relate to the whole or any part of the licence. The regulator’s consent is required for any licence transfer.

Clause 19 sets out the process that the economic regulator must follow before giving consent to any transfer. That includes public notice of the regulator’s intent to consent to a licence transfer, the reasons for it, any conditions to be attached to the consent to transfer, and a time period within which objections or representations can be made. The economic regulator must also notify the Secretary of State of an intended transfer, and the Secretary of State has the right to direct that a transfer may not be consented to. That is appropriate, as there may have been contractual financial support agreements in place between the Secretary of State and the current licence holder pursuant to the licence.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

The clauses deal with transfer of licences when, as mentioned in the previous clause, a termination event takes place. Subsequent to such an event, the licence will have to be put into action again and will be transferred. I am interested to see whether I can get the words “termination event” into common language, so that I can say to people, “That is a bit of a termination event”. However, I will not do that this afternoon.

The transfer of licences under such circumstances, as we have emphasised, needs to be put under the general heading of “fit and proper people”, whether we explicitly say that or not. A termination event may have occurred because someone has proven not to be a fit and proper person—for example, if they were gambling the company’s proceeds on local casinos—and therefore the company or person has been determined not to be able to carry out the term of the licence. The licence therefore needs to be transferred at least to a better kind of person.

Will the Minister expatiate briefly on the circumstances under which transfers will be judged? We need to be sure that when a licence needs to be transferred after a termination event, no one can say, “You over there—you will do. We are in a bit of a fix as far as the licence is concerned, so you get on with it.” I am sure that that is the last thing on the Minister’s mind, but it could conceivably happen if someone wished to cut corners and keep a licensed line of activity going. If the Minister could give an assurance about how licences will be transferred, that would be helpful.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I am glad that we are not going to focus too much on termination or even extermination events during our debate. Indeed, it is to be hoped that we will not need to refer to this aspect of the Bill very much, if at all. However, we have to legislate in the expectation that at some point, there may be termination events for a licensed entity. That is why we have set out the provision for a licence transfer in the Bill.

The hon. Member for Southampton, Test referred to his earlier point regarding the inclusion of the phrase “fit and proper person”. As I said, we believe that the Bill sets out exactly how the Government will determine that a company or an individual is well placed to be a licence holder and carry out their duties as they relate to the Bill. However, let us say that they are not—we hope that that will not be the case—and a transfer takes place. A new licensee will be found, and if they intend to commence the licensable activity shortly after consent is granted, the regulator—Ofgem, in this case—may ask them to demonstrate, for example, that arrangements to accede to relevant codes by the proposed transfer date are in place. I understand why the hon. Member asks these questions, and it is right to do so. It is right that we state on the record today exactly what we expect in the event that a termination event takes place in regard to a licensed entity.

Clause 20 - Appeal to the CMA

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause 21 stand part.

That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.

Clauses 22 to 25 stand part.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I will now speak to clauses 20 to 25, which relate to appeals in relation to licence modification decisions made by the economic regulator for carbon dioxide transport and storage. I will start with clause 20. To ensure that sufficient safeguards for licensees are in place, this provision of the Bill provides for licence modification decisions to be appealable to the Competition and Markets Authority. That is consistent with the CMA’s role in appeals in other economically regulated sectors, including gas and electricity. The CMA’s permission is required to bring an appeal, and the specific grounds on which the CMA may refuse to allow an appeal are set out in the clause. They include, for example, grounds for appeal that are “trivial or vexatious”.

Clauses 21 to 25 and schedule 2 set out the process and procedures for appeals to the CMA. Schedule 2 sets out the detailed process by which appeals to the CMA regarding licence modification decisions must be made, including matters to be considered by the CMA and timeframes within which the CMA must determine outcomes. To ensure a fair process and in order that the CMA may make a fully informed decision, schedule 2 establishes a right for the CMA to require the production of documents and written statements, and for persons to attend to give oral evidence. It establishes an offence of failure to comply with a notice to provide information, and it allows the CMA to make a costs order relating to the appeal. The provisions of schedule 2 are consistent with the process and provisions for appeals to the CMA in relation to gas and electricity licence modification decisions made by Ofgem.

Clause 22 sets out the matters to which the CMA must have regard when determining an appeal against a licence modification decision. It also sets out the circumstances in which the CMA may allow an appeal. In determining an appeal, the CMA must have regard to the same matters to which the economic regulator must have regard in carrying out its principal objectives and statutory duties in relation to carbon dioxide transport and storage. The CMA may allow the appeal if it considers that the decision being appealed does not sufficiently have regard to, or give sufficient weight to, matters covered by the principal objectives and statutory duties set out in clause 1; is legally wrong; is based on a factual error; or does not achieve its stated objectives. If the CMA does not allow the appeal on any of those grounds, the original decision made by the economic regulator stands.

Clause 23 sets out the powers of the CMA to remedy a licence modification decision where an appeal has been allowed. Where an appeal has been allowed, the CMA can quash the decision or require the economic regulator to reconsider it. If the appeal relates to a price control decision, the CMA additionally has the option to substitute its own decision for the economic regulator’s decision. These powers mirror those that exist for the CMA in gas and electricity licence modification appeals.

Clause 24 sets out time limits within which an appeal to the CMA must be determined. An appeal against a licence modification decision must be determined by the CMA within a period of four months from the date on which permission to bring the appeal was given. For appeals against price control decisions, the CMA has a period of six months to make a determination. Where representations on timing are made and the CMA considers that there are special reasons why the time limits cannot be met, it may have an extra month for its decision. In such circumstances, the CMA must inform the parties of the time limit and publish it in such a manner as it considers appropriate to bring it to the attention of parties who may be affected by the determination.

Finally, Clause 25 sets out the manner in which the CMA must make its determination of an appeal. The determination by the CMA of a licence modification decision appeal must be contained in an order. The order must set out the CMA’s determination and the reasons for it, as well as the time at which the determination is to take effect. The order must be notified to the parties to the appeal and published as soon as is reasonably practicable. The order must be notified in such manner as the CMA considers appropriate to bring it to the attention of parties who may be affected by such a determination. The CMA is not required to publish commercially sensitive information or personal data. The economic regulator, Ofgem, must take necessary steps to comply within the time specified in the order or, where not specified, within a reasonable timeframe.

Bim Afolami (Conservative, Hitchin and Harpenden)

I want to add a note of caution in relation to this set of clauses—a word for those on the Treasury Bench and the Minister, who is a good friend and a good parliamentarian, and who is doing a fantastic job on the Bill and in his role.

There is a hidden danger in the Secretary of State and, indeed, the Department not having the ability, outside of an interim period, to intervene at all in the process vis-à-vis licences. If I have misunderstood anything, I stand corrected, but as I understand it, once we have gone past the interim period—in peacetime, so to speak—the regulator, Ofgem, will make a decision. That decision can be, rightly and very understandably, scrutinised. Appeals can be made to the CMA, which is the right place, but there is no provision for the Secretary of State to involve themselves in that process.

If my understanding is right, and it may be wrong, there is no ability for the Secretary of State to intervene in that process. That strikes me as dangerous in the event that there is an emergency, the economic situation changes hugely or the broader political environment changes to the point that the regulator has a very different view of the issue from that of the Department. I should have referred Members at the beginning to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests: I am chair of the Regulatory Reform Group.

My point is not a dry, technical one that has no real political or economic bearing; it could be hugely significant over the coming years. I urge the Minister and his officials to consider whether we should retain some ability for the Secretary of State to intervene directly in the process if that were required, although I suspect that most of the time it would not be.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I was going to make a slightly different point from that made by the hon. Member for—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Hitchin and Harpenden.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I remembered the Hitchin bit, but I could not remember the Harpenden bit; I am sure that the hon. Member treats both parts of his constituency with equal reverence.

Bim Afolami (Conservative, Hitchin and Harpenden)

Of course.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I was tempted to refer the hon. Member to the Energy Prices Act 2022, which was recently passed—I think, to paraphrase the Minister, not on his watch. The Act allows the Secretary of State to do pretty much anything that he or she wants in the energy sphere. I do not know whether that applies to the circumstances that the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden suggested, but we are particularly concerned about the powers in that Act, and whether they need to be rowed back a little in this Bill.

I draw the Committee’s attention to the process of appeal from the economic regulator to the CMA. It appears to be a linear process. The appeal is set up by the CMA, effectively, and there is no going back afterwards. There is not a circumstance in which the economic regulator can say, “Actually, we think the CMA didn’t work as well it should in terms of casting that appeal. Can we appeal the appeal—not necessarily the substance of the appeal, but the way in which it has been carried out?”

What is apparent in terms of the CMA’s powers regarding appeals is that they give the CMA a lot of ability to misstep. Clause 20(4) states:

“The CMA may refuse permission to bring an appeal only on one of the following grounds”.

The CMA, actually on fairly wide grounds, can therefore refuse to bring an appeal. It appears to have pretty widespread powers to make a determination without any comeback. For example, clause 22(4) states:

“The CMA may allow the appeal only to the extent that it is satisfied that the decision appealed against was wrong on”

various grounds, including, among others,

“that the decision was based, wholly or partly, on an error of fact”.

Various things in the clauses emphasise the linear nature of the appeal process—that is, the CMA decides, and no one is looking at what the CMA is doing in terms of its appeal processes. I would like to hear whether the Minister thinks that that is adequate or whether a little more attention ought to be paid to what the CMA is doing in those circumstances, and whether the relationship between the CMA and the economic regulator under those circumstances is as good as it could be.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Turning first to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden, who does treat both parts of his constituency with equal diligence—having visited, I have seen that at first hand—he is right: the Secretary of State does not have the power to directly modify licence conditions once they are granted, but he does have a veto over Ofgem decisions. That is set out in clause 13(6).

I genuinely understand the concerns of the hon. Member for Southampton, Test, but the provisions and procedures directly mirror the appeals process in respect of electricity and gas licence modification, set out in the Gas Act 1986 and the Electricity Act 1989. We believe that it will ensure consistency of approach for the economic regulator Ofgem and, indeed, the Competition and Markets Authority, which will provide confidence for the sector, and indeed sectors, as we move forward.

Clause 26 - Provision of information to or by the economic regulator

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to consider clause 27 stand part.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clause 26 allows the economic regulator to request information from, and provide information to, other bodies with carbon capture, usage and storage regulatory or statutory functions, in circumstances where the sharing of information may be appropriate to facilitate the effective functioning of the respective regulatory regimes.

The clause permits the sharing of information between the economic regulator and the relevant bodies with statutory functions in respect of CCUS listed at subsection (2). The clause also allows for sharing of information with any other person the economic regulator considers appropriate if they have statutory powers or duties that the economic regulator considers relevant to the exercise of its functions. That could include, for example, the counterparty to any contracts providing consumer or taxpayer support for associated carbon capture activities. The clause limits information requests to those that the economic regulator considers necessary to facilitate the exercise of its functions.

These information-sharing provisions are intended to enable information to be shared between relevant regulatory authorities, not to permit public disclosure. Information shared with the economic regulator will remain protected under the Data Protection Act.

Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

What happens if any of the bodies do not give information to the economic regulator in the requested timeframe?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

They would be subject to the same stringent actions as have been set out, and in the interim the Secretary of State would determine what action should be taken in that respect.

Clause 27 gives the Secretary of State a power to require information directly from a carbon dioxide transport and storage licence holder, to ensure that he has access to information needed to support the effective conduct of his CCUS functions. The clause does not enable the Secretary of State to share or publish the information. To ensure protection of sensitive information, information provided to the Secretary of State will remain protected under the Data Protection Act, and an information request cannot be made to obtain information protected by legal professional privilege or, in Scotland, confidentiality of communications.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

The Minister’s final few words appear to show—the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun may have a few things to say about this—that there are different conditions for disclosure or production in legal proceedings in England and Wales and in Scotland. I am not a lawyer, so I do not know exactly what the difference is likely to be, but it appears that there is greater protection for the licence holder with respect to information provision in Scotland than in England and Wales. Perhaps I am reading that wrong. Is it the case that, in effect, the two conditions are the same and the wording of the Bill just bows in the direction of the formulation in Scotland, or is there a material difference?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

There is no material difference at all. As the hon. Member suggests, it is just a reference to the different regulations that apply in Scotland and in England and Wales, as a result of the devolved legislature in Edinburgh legislating slightly differently from the way that we have for the rest of the United Kingdom. That is the only difference. As this is a pan-UK Bill that affects each area of the United Kingdom, we have to make clear in the Bill the different regulations that will have to be conformed to. That is why the language of clause 27 is as it is.

Clause 28 - Monitoring, information gathering etc

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

With this it will be convenient to consider clauses 29 to 31 stand part.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Thank you very much, Mr Gray. I fear that you will be hearing my voice in your sleep tonight.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

I very much hope not!

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clauses 28 to 31 relate to other functions of the economic regulator. Starting with clause 28, as I have already said, carbon capture, transport and storage are nascent industries in the UK and, indeed, globally.

The economic regulation framework for carbon dioxide transport and storage, established by part 1 of the Bill, is focused on the transport of carbon by pipeline for the purposes of geological storage. Through that framework, our aim is to both provide certainty for investors and protect user interests.

As the CCUS market becomes established, we may need to keep the framework under review—for example, on how it is applied to non-pipeline forms of carbon transportation and the most appropriate licensing structure for different types of onshore and offshore infrastructure. To help inform such considerations, clause 28 requires the economic regulator to keep the carbon dioxide transport and storage market under review.

The economic regulator may collect information for the carrying out of such monitoring functions. The regulator is also obliged to share relevant information with the Secretary of State or the CMA if requested to do so, to assist their competition and market functions. Clause 29 establishes the procedure for requesting such information and establishes a penalty if a licence holder does not comply with a request for relevant information.

Where the economic regulator is considering implementing proposals that may have a significant impact on licence holders, on others who are involved in related CCUS activities, on the general public or on the environment, clause 30 requires that the economic regulator carries out an impact assessment ahead of implementing the proposals. The economic regulator is required to carry out and publish an assessment of the likely impact of implementing the proposal or set out why it considers it unnecessary to carry out such an assessment.

An impact assessment for a proposal must be published in an appropriate manner and provide an opportunity for those who are likely to be significantly affected by the proposal’s implementation to make representations. In its annual report, the economic regulator must report on the impact assessments undertaken in the relevant financial year and the decisions taken as a result of those assessments.

Lastly, to ensure transparency of decision making, clause 31 establishes that, for certain decisions, the economic regulator and the Secretary of State must give reasons for the decisions taken. The reasons must be set out in the published notice and sent to the relevant licence holder. Before publishing a notice, the economic regulator or the Secretary of State must give regard to the need to exclude information that could seriously and prejudicially affect the interests of an individual or body.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I must say that these passages are so dry that I may be hearing the Minister’s voice in my sleep this afternoon, rather than tonight. Having said that, I assure you, Mr Gray, that I am wide awake and listening to what is being said.

When considering any piece of legislation, I always think that the first thing we should look at is the impact assessments, because they have to tell the truth about what is going on. It is, therefore, always useful to have impact assessments. Indeed, it is important that an impact assessment is available as often as possible both for Bill Committees and for secondary legislation.

Clause 30, however, appears to be rather vague about whether impact assessments should actually be undertaken. On the duty to carry out impact assessment, it states that

“the economic regulator is proposing to do anything for the purposes of, or in connection with, the carrying out of any function exercisable by it under or by virtue of this Part, and…it appears to the economic regulator that the proposal is important”,

but the clause does not specify what is meant by “important”. It goes on to say:

“but this section does not apply if it appears to the economic regulator that the urgency of the matter makes it impracticable or inappropriate for the economic regulator to comply with the requirements of this section.”

In other words, if the economic regulator thinks that an issue has some significance—subjectively judged, I assume, by the economic regulator—it may carry out an impact assessment. On the other hand, if there is no time to do it or it does not appear to be terribly appropriate to the economic regulator, it does not have to do it anyway. Therefore, we might get an impact assessment, or we might not.

There are a number of grounds in the process under which the impact assessment can be voided or avoided. Although subsection (2) attempts to define what “important” means in connection with a proposal, it also states:

“A proposal is important for the purposes of this section only if its implementation would be likely to do one or more of the following”.

and thereby further downgrades the question of what is still a rather subjective view of what constitutes importance.

I assume that the Minister shares my view that impact assessments are really important not just for important subjects but for most things. Although we have not tabled an amendment, will the Minister consider tightening the wording so as to ensure that carrying out impact assessments is the norm and not something to be decided by the regulator? To use the word “important” again, it is important that we are clear about impact assessments. Indeed, that has been set out in guidance to Ministers, who should seek to undertake impact assessments at all times, where possible, and should not hide behind speed issues or other circumstances in order to avoid them. However, it appears that that is not the case for the economic regulator, and that is not satisfactory.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

The Government are always open to suggestions and ideas about how we can improve legislation. As I said earlier, it is important for the industry, nascent as it is, that there is as much clarity as possible about how it is governed and about the regulatory process that it must follow. We must also understand that, as the market and the technology grow, evolve and develop, we will need to keep that under review. However, I am happy to give a commitment to the hon. Member that we will consider whether it is possible to tighten up the language so that exactly what is meant is made clear to industry.

Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)

As we have heard, there could be subjective interpretations regarding the importance and urgency of an impact assessment, and questions raised over whether one is appropriate or impracticable. I think the Minister will share my concern that the broadly worded clause could result in people seeking judicial review if they feel that the economic regulator should have carried out an impact assessment. I do not know what the process would be for bringing such a review, but does he share my concern that the vaguer the language, the more open it is to challenge?

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

I also do not know the exact procedure that would lead to a judicial review in this instance, but I agree that we need to be clear and give certainty to the industry. Where we can, we should look at what we can do to tidy up the language so as to ensure that we do not end up in that situation.

Joy Morrissey (Conservative, Beaconsfield)

I beg to move, that further consideration be now adjourned—or, as one might say, be a termination event. [Laughter.]

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

That is, of course, entirely out of order.

Written evidence reported to the House