Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 21 March 2023.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We are now sitting in public, and the proceedings are being broadcast. I have a few preliminary announcements. As per usual, Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members emailed their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch phones and electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication, and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can deal with those matters formally without debate. The programme motion, standing in the Minister’s name, was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Examination of Witness
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Before we hear from the witness, do Members wish to make any declarations of interest in connection with the Bill?
David Simmonds (Conservative, Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner)
I am an honorary fellow of Birkbeck, University of London.
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
I am an honorary governor of Middlesbrough College.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Professor Malcolm Press CBE, chair of University UK’s advisory group on the lifelong loan entitlement and vice-chancellor of Manchester Metropolitan University. Professor Press is appearing by Zoom. I remind Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and we must stick to the timings in the programme order that the Committee has agreed. We have until 9.50 am for this panel. Professor Press, could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
You are very welcome, and thank you for your time. I am Judith Cummins, a Member of Parliament and Chair of this Bill Committee. We will take a series of questions from MPs. We start with our Minister.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Good morning, Professor Press. Thank you for being a witness. The chief executive of Universities UK said:
“A more flexible approach to higher education funding is right for learners, right for employers and right for providers.”
In what ways would greater flexibility in the student finance system be beneficial to students? How do you think the lifelong loan entitlement will encourage more part-time students to take up learning?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q What will be the impact on universities? Obviously, it is hard to know how behaviours will change, but once level 6 is introduced under the lifelong loan entitlement, how do you think universities will respond?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Given what you say about HTQs, and level 4 and 5, do you foresee much greater collaboration between universities and further education colleges once the lifelong loan entitlement is up and running?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Good morning, professor. I will start with questions about the funding model for higher education institutions. What impact do you think the introduction of the lifelong loan entitlement and the proposed funding model in the Bill will have on higher education providers, particularly given the declining unit of resourceQ ?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Do you mind expanding on that difference between credit-based and fixed fees, for the benefit of us around the table?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q May I pick up on the point raised by the Minister about collaboration between institutions, whether that is between FE and HE, or laterally, between HE and HE or FE and FE? You are in Manchester; you have a good cluster there. Do you think that this might work better in metropolitan, urban areas, but be much more difficult for a coastal or town-based FE college in a wider, open, more remote landscape?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q So you would support remote learners being covered by this?
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
Good morning, Professor Press. We are grateful to you for being with us today. I have two questions. First, do you think this approach is exciting for universities and offers real opportunities for advance? Secondly, what administrative challenges do you foresee for your university arising from the introduction of this approach and the courses offered?Q
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
Q Will this mean that you need more collaboration with other universities and colleges in your area, so that you are not duplicating, and so that you can fit together like a jigsaw puzzle, so that students and would-be students have the greatest choice?
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
That is very encouraging; thank you.
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
On the number of new students who are likely to take up learning opportunities and would not have done so without this provision, how much of a game changer do you believe this legislation will be? Is it likely to bring lots of new students into learning, or will it just be an alternative option for those who would have studied? Secondly, is there anything you would like to see in the legislation that might enable it to be used by more learners?Q
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q What role do you believe there is for local employers in deciding which courses are on offer through the LLE?
Dan Jarvis (Labour, Barnsley Central)
I was interested to hear what you said about the link to local businesses, and you mentioned the city council. I am particularly interested in the skills and educational landscape at regional level. Greater Manchester is one of two trailblazer mayoral combined authorities; the other is the West Midlands. What is your sense of the role for the Mayor and the mayoral combined authority in all this?Q
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Professor, could we come back to the financial implications and the administrative side of delivering this in institutions? Could you expand on how you think it will work? How much additional resource might be required in the delivery of short-length courses versus the traditional model for a higher education institution?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q I understand that, and I do not think you are alone in not having done the modelling. I guess if you are talking about a 30-credit module versus a traditional year of, say, 120 credits, it would not necessarily be four times the administrative burden. It will not be four times 30, but it could be three times or two times or something like that. Do you think that is a reasonable assumption?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Given our time constraints, we have time for just one quick last question.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
First, I draw attention to my registered interest in the universities sector.Q
I am interested in what you were touching on in respect of the wraparound pastoral care that you offer students. I studied my masters over three years, part time at the University of Sussex, but I was a student throughout the whole of it, so the university was able to offer that wraparound care. In a modular system, in which people pay for modules and may come back in a year or two, how will you be able to offer that continuing care? Even if they have breaks of only a few months, they might still need some kind of care as a student. Have you considered how you would organise that?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Professor Press, I am sorry but, given the constraints of time and the fact that we have many other witnesses, I am afraid I have to end your session there. I thank you immensely for taking the time to give evidence to our Committee.
Examination of Witnesses
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Liz Bromley, chief executive officer at Newcastle and Stafford Colleges Group; Alun Francis OBE, principal and chief executive of Oldham College; and Ellen Thinnesen OBE, chief executive of Sunderland College. Both Liz and Alun will be appearing via Zoom, and we have Ellen here in person. For this panel, we have until 10.25 am. I ask the witnesses to please introduce themselves for the record once they appear on screen.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
I do not think we have Liz.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q I will start with Alun Francis. It was good to visit Oldham College recently—thank you. What do you think will be the impact on your most disadvantaged students of their now having access to the lifelong loan entitlement?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We will pause while the sound is sorted. I am very sorry. Alun, can you rejoin on Zoom? Apparently that will get rid of the glitches.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q I will turn to Ellen. Good morning and thank you again for coming today. Which students do you think will stand to benefit most from the lifelong loan entitlement and from being able to do fairly priced short courses and modules?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Absolutely. Careers guidance will be essential to ensure that the lifelong loan entitlement works properly for students. Do you think the personal accounts that students will be given will make a difference? Each student will have a personal account, which will give them all the information in terms of what course they have done, how many credits they have left and what loan entitlement they have. We also very much hope that UCAS will take a significant role in that as well. Do you think that will make a difference in terms of the things you just discussed?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q I think there will be a one-to-one service for those students, which is part of the Government service that exists already, but absolutely. I very much hope that not just UCAS but the National Careers Service, which we are doing a lot on, will have an important role in directing students to the training and retraining options that they might want to consider.
Do you not think that good employers will welcome this? We know that there is often not as much investment in training as they would like, but now students will be able to access short courses and modules, rather than having to do long courses. As you know, they will also have 12 entry points, rather than just four, throughout the year, which will make a difference. It may actually be that employers think this is a good idea and that a lot more employees are trained and retrained in the skills that employers need.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Thank you, Ellen. I am afraid you are very much the centre of our attention for the time being. I will ask specifically about quality, as I understand that you have a certain expertise in its delivery and measurement. How are we going to ensure that there is a consistent measure of quality across courses and providers with the LLE?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Should the Bill have written into it some sort of definition of what a credit is?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Q Thank you. Before any further questions, I ask Liz Bromley and Alun Francis to introduce yourselves—in your case, Alun, reintroduce yourself—for the record, please.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Again, you are very welcome. Liz, are you on mute?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you. You are very welcome.
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
Good morning, everyone. One thing that might be introduced as part of this new credit-based method is the move away from the academic year to the course year. A number of advantages have been outlined, but do you foresee that there could be any problems with it?Q
Brendan Clarke-Smith (Conservative, Bassetlaw)
Q Thank you. Ellen?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Thanks very much; it is good to have you all on the call this morning. Thanks for joining us. This is really aimed at Liz and Alun: how might employer demand be measured in deciding what courses should be initially rolled out under this new system? We will start with you, Liz.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Could I start with Alun Francis? It was good to visit your college a few weeks ago; I had a wonderful visit. What do you think, in terms of FE, about the impact of the LLE encouraging disadvantaged students—particularly those from low-income backgrounds—to take up the LLE? What impact will it have on colleges such as yours?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q May I ask the other two witnesses, in relation to your institutions, about the impact on disadvantaged students? We know that more disadvantaged students than ever before are going into HE, but at some institutions more than at others, there are issues with their completing courses. What impact do you think this approach will have on disadvantaged students in terms of module starts and higher completion rates? Would all three of you give us your views on the phased approach we are taking? We are starting with levels 4 and 5 in higher technical qualifications and employer-led qualifications, and moving on to level 6 later, so that we bring this through slowly and cautiously?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Given the pressures on time, may I ask questioners and witnesses to be brief?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
I am interested in the workforce. Liz, you mentioned the need to manage the workforce; if we are to have, in effect, all-year-round entry, with people able to join at different points, will there be additional workforce costs? The workforce in the further education sector is one of the worst paid workforces in the education sector overall, because the funding for your sector has been among the worst overall. Are there some challenges, given that staff have never been paid as much as, say, university sector staffQ ?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Of course, in the FE sector you are paid less per head than people in schools or in universities—it kind of dips at a crucial time—so that is a fair point.
I wonder about the modulisation discussion we have been having, and employers. I am supportive of the measures, as I have heard you are, but is there a danger that employers push staff members to use their credits, and then when staff members actually want to make a career change their credits have all been used up because the employer has forced them to do modules that, really, they should have paid for? Should there be some provisions in the Bill to make it clear that credits are personal and should not be used for in-work professional development? Is that possible?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Alun, you are nodding along; did you want to say anything about the safeguards that might need to be in the Bill?
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
Q I am particularly interested in potential older students who are in employment and want to progress or change their careers. First, I welcome what you have said about business involvement, but now that we have a new framework—or will do, hopefully, when the Bill is passed—what can you do to try to get more employers involved who have not expressed interest in the past?
Secondly, you highlighted how hard you have worked, Ellen, to reach the disadvantaged, and I am sure that your two colleagues are doing the same. How are you doing outreach to those who are in employment to let them know what you offer?
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
That is great, but what about those who are, say, 40 and coming back into the workforce—women returners and people who want to change careers? How will you get out in your community to encourage them, when this goes through, to take up the opportunities that your great colleges are providing?Q
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
Brilliant. Are you doing the same in your areasQ ?
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
That is really good news, because you are outreaching to people who are in jobs. Their employer may not be interested, but they may beQ .
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
Thank you.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We just have time for one more very quick question.
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Q On the staff stressor costs and employer engagement, is also there an additional administrative burden? Is there enough in this Bill to enable providers to cope with those additional costs?
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Q Will it work without money, Alun?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allocated for the Committee to ask questions. Before we move on to the next panel, may I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee for your evidence. Thank you ever so much.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Julie Charge, chief executive and director of finance at the University of Salford, and Professor Edward Peck, vice-chancellor and president of Nottingham Trent University. The witnesses are appearing by Zoom, but Sir Edward Peck is not yet with us, so please bear with us and we will interrupt proceedings as we did previously. We have until five to 11 for this panel. Could you please introduce yourself for the record, Julie?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you. I call the Minister.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Good morning. Do you expect students to respond favourably to the new system of limits per credit, instead of limits per year?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q What work needs to be done, apart from careers guidance, to get students more familiar with the new system and the fact that they can do modules or short courses as well as long courses?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q Do you anticipate that this will mainly be utilised by learners who are in work currently and are looking to develop their careers, whose employers are looking to develop their skills, or by learners who are either out of work or looking to change jobs or employers?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q At that stage of their careers, the prospect of taking on debt did not dissuade them?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q Do you have any concerns about the delivery of this approach or how it would operate for learners who are transferring from one institution to another? Do you think that there is enough clarity on those aspects?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q Finally, there is currently no involvement of the apprenticeship levy in the design of this system. What role would you expect existing initiatives, like the apprenticeship levy, bootcamps and others, to have in interacting with this kind of approach?
Gill Furniss (Labour, Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough)
I want to dig a bit deeper into the workforce issues. Having worked in further education for many years, I am very aware of the problem that the FE sector is having with recruitment and retention now. Much of that is because of the pay differential between, for instance, school teachers and FE lecturers—as well as, obviously, higher education lecturers. A previous witness said that an injection of cash would be very welcome. Can this be successful if there is not an injection of cashQ ?
Gill Furniss (Labour, Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough)
Q What impact might these changes have on the workforce and your industrial relations?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Q We now have Professor Sir Edward Peck on the line as well. Would you like to introduce yourself for the record, Sir Edward?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
It’s on the record!
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
That’s twice today. I call the Minister.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q I should declare that I am an honorary professor of Nottingham Trent University. Good morning to you, Professor Edward Peck. You have written about the short course trial. Obviously, the numbers have been small at the moment, although the purpose of the trial is not about numbers. You said that focusing on the numbers taking the short course trial is missing the point. Could you explain why, and why you think there will be significant take-up of the LLE?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q You have talked about the advanced learner loan as well, and the numbers taking that up. Could you expand on that a bit?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q You have a close relationship with the Mansfield college. I want to understand how you think the LLE will impact both on HE and FE and also in terms of franchising to other institutions, as in the way that you are doing.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Hello Professor—good to see you. Likewise, I was very impressed by Mansfield when I came to visit. I am just interested to know your thoughts on the rationale of having a minimum of 30 credits. Do you think we should be considering a lower threshold?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Okay. I know that in Canada, for example, they offer 10, don’t they? That seems to be quite successful.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Finally, can I just ask you about the future of the apprenticeship levy? It is currently not written into, or not within, this legislation. How do you see that sitting alongside the lifelong loan entitlement and the role for employers?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q At the moment, students come and study part-time or via the workplace. Predominantly, who pays for those courses?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Do you have a “finger in the wind” kind of breakdown between own-paid for and employer-paid for?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I was trying to exclude the full-time undergraduate. I am trying to get at if there is a danger that, for some of those who might already be accessing technical, part-time, upskilling skills courses that are paid for by their employers, the employers will shift that burden on to the students. My follow-up question, which I have asked to other panel members, is do you believe there are other things that can be done to ensure that employers do not shift that burden—for example, in regulation putting things that make it clear that this is for personal, not professional, development?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Thank you so much for your evidence. As we transition into this new world, I am interested in hearing your expert view on where you are seeing immediate demand—for example, the renewable energy retrofit gets discussed regularly in Lancashire. Could you give us the top three from both of your perspectives?Q
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q That is very interesting. It almost reflects the economic drivers in the Salford-Manchester complex at the moment, even before we get the National Cyber Force up at Samlesbury. Sorry, Professor Peck, I wanted to make sure that was right. What are you saying, outside of retrofitting?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
That is really interesting; thank you.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence, and we will move on to the next panel.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Sir David Bell KCB DL, vice-chancellor and chief executive of the University of Sunderland, and Rachel Sandby-Thomas, registrar at the University of Warwick. Sir David will be appearing via Zoom, and we have Rachel with us in person. For the record, could the witnesses please introduce themselves?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you very much for attending this morning.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Rachel, do you agree that without these measures, students who want to learn flexibly could be disproportionately affected by significant fee limits?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q We are introducing this in a phased way, starting off with levels 4 and 5 and then level 6. We want to get it right. It will be hard to predict behaviour change, although I think it will be very positive. What is your view of the phased approach and starting off with levels 4 and 5, particularly HTQs and employer-led qualifications?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Do you imagine yourselves offering level 4 and 5 courses under the LLE to begin with?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q I have a question for each of the witnesses. First, Sir David, prior to your current role, you were for a period the permanent secretary at the Department for Education. This legislation was originally intended to be in the Skills and Post-16 Education Bill but was then withdrawn, and we now have it as a separate Bill. We appreciate that the Government are rolling this out slowly. Notwithstanding that, what is your sense—we do not have the DFE responding to the Committee today—about how feasible and likely it is that the system will be in place by 2025-26, and about any barriers there might be to that operating properly?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Clearly, success partly depends on the number of institutions at which students will be able to access these courses. Rachel, will you spell out the incentives for higher education institutions to put on courses in a much more bite-sized model, and the barriers to them doing so?Q
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Rachel, I am keen to understand how you see this fitting within the current regulatory landscape for higher education, particularly in the light of what it is fair to describe as an increased regulatory burden on the sector in recent years.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Who do you think is best placed to be providing the advice and guidance? Is it down to the individual institutions, or is there a role for the OfS?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Sir David, may I put to you a question that has been put to previous witnesses about the funding situation across the sector? Given that you have worked in the Department for Education and also given your role today, what do you see as the risks to the sector in terms of an additional financial burden?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Sorry to cut across you. I think that Lord Johnson—Jo Johnson—was calling for a further pilot. Do you think that would have been a good idea?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Thank you. I have a specific question, perhaps for you, Sir David. We heard a moment ago from Ellen Thinnesen from Sunderland College, and she was talking about just how well the college works not only with the university, but also with the Department for Work and Pensions and so on. In terms of what this Bill might offer, it is about getting people back into work by reskilling, retraining them and so on, which is terrific. However, in the Bill we are looking at a cut-off at age 60—I speak personally now—so do you think that, given the fact that retirement ages are getting later and later, that should be more flexible, or higher?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
As much as me!
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q This is a very interesting debate. In terms of being overwhelmed by choice, perhaps I could start with ladies first again, but I would like both of your opinions. Is there a bigger role for employers? If I am bowling along and I have decided that my biology degree is not relevant to being an MP and I want to get a level 4, 5 or 6 qualification to be an MP—I look forward to that training course, by the way—I will come along, but I will be doing it because I am trying to gain a qualification that either helps me with existing employment or that helps me to gain new employment.
I am interested in what you will do to engage with employers, so that rather than people being overwhelmed by choice there are pathways that kind of say: “If you get to this level”—is that something that can be set out in advance? Also, are you set up to then track outcomes? That is, this suggested pathway has taken 20 people through it, and 20 people have gone on to work with Jaguar Land Rover, even when they were not employees, having gained this qualification. Is that something that you are set up to do—almost to narrow the choice of modularisation to aid industry?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q Fair, yes; I can see that is different, but a student coming in in five years’ time when this is established could say, “Well, if I go through this modularisation programme and come out without a qualification, then 80% of the other people who have done it have gone and got a job in AI coding,” or whatever.
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q I can see how there would be a feedback loop here for almost honey-potting around in educational institutions in key industries.
Sir KCB Bell—I always start with flattery; I find it safer. Would you track outcomes to help people make informed choices to narrow down that modularisation overwhelm?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q Yes, I am very interested. Say I was to take advantage of these loans and invest my time and hard-earned money in moving from one job sector to another via the modular course, which allows me still to put food on the table while I am learning new skills, would you be tracking the successful outcomes of the pathways that those individuals had taken? I accept it is different for employers.
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Q Very briefly, on the issue of cost, we have talked about the cost that may be visited on the student and the administrative cost on the institutions. I wonder whether either of you have given any thought to how the unspent apprenticeship levy fund might be utilised to mitigate some of those costs, either individually or collectively. Rachel, would you like to start?
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Sir David, any thoughts?
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Q You appear to be somewhat sanguine about heaping yet further choice and complexity into an already complex system. Is that a genuine reflection of your concerns?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q I am interested in the additional costs for institutions. Rachel, you touched on that. Do you think there need to be some additional payments to institutions to incentivise them to do this? Who should look after students between modules? Who should offer that ongoing support? Should it be the institution, or should there be another body?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q I want to ask you both about credit transfer. It will obviously be for the institution to decide on this—where people move their courses if they decide to transfer. There are good examples of this taking place already, as you well know. How will this work in practice? Will it be embraced by colleges and HE institutions?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q We heard from a previous panellist about the importance of confidence in any new scheme. I think about T-levels, which have not really taken hold in the way the Government had perhaps hoped. If we are looking at 2025-26 as the year that this system may start, how can the Government make sure that there is the massive take-up to ensure it is a success?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allocated to the Committee to ask questions, and indeed the end of this morning’s sitting. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses for their evidence.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
We now proceed, as this morning, with our witnesses to the Committee. We are sitting in public and proceedings are being broadcast. We will hear oral evidence from Matthew Percival, programme director of skills and inclusion at the Confederation of British Industry, and—on video—Simon Ashworth, who is director of policy at the Association of Employment and Learning Providers. Will you say who you are for the record, starting with Simon?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
The Minister will start the questions.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q76 Thank you for coming today. Thank you also for the CBI’s constructive support for the principles of the lifelong loan entitlement. How do you think employers will respond to the LLE? There was some discussion about that in this morning’s sitting. Do you think they will respond positively and work with employees to make sure that they have the benefits? Some of them will actually support the cost of the LLE courses.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q How do you think it will be distinct—going back to part of your answer—in terms both of the normal training of an employee, and of an employee separately taking out a lifelong loan entitlement?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Shall we bring in Simon?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Yes. I want to put my final question to Simon. Simon, I again want to thank you for the AELP’s constructive support for the principles of the Bill. It would be helpful to understand what you think the impact of the Bill will be on your members. We have done a lot of work on further education and higher education this morning, but it would be good to understand the impact on your members and how they see it going forward.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Thank you both for joining us. Matthew, I have a couple of quick questions for you, and then I will come to Simon in a second. In the current economic environment, do you foresee a situation where a lot of employers, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, will be cutting back on training? If that is so, what are the risks of this being very much individualised, by which I mean the training being left to the individual as opposed to the business? Obviously, what happens in most recessions—not that we are in a recession, but we are facing difficult times—is that training gets cut back.Q
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q I have a very brief question, again to you, Matthew. To what extent should lifelong learning be aiming also to improve the productivity puzzle in the UK?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Simon, could I briefly ask you what role the new platforms might play—online platforms particularly—in the delivery of LLE? How do we ensure that any new providers coming into this area provide quality?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Matthew, we always seem to talk about skills shortages, and it feels like the sense among employers that there are skills and labour shortages now is stronger than ever. However, a recent National Audit Office report showed that in 2018-19, businesses were spending less on training than they had been nine years before. What is your sense as Q to why employers who recognise there are massive skills shortages are at the same time not spending the extra amount you might expect on training in comparison to 10 years before?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q Simon, we just heard from Matthew that one of the reasons that businesses are not able to invest in training is their inability to access a course, maybe because the provider—whether it is from the public or private sectors—cannot recruit the lecturers or the course does not pay. One of the strengths of your members has been their relationships with employers, and what we have seen under the apprenticeship regime is that, since we have had more of an employer-led approach, the bigger employers have taken on more and more apprenticeships, and SMEs have quite often been left out. Given that one of the ideas in the Bill is that new courses will be produced—to be paid for by the learners—to what extent is there an expectation that learners at SMEs might miss out again? The bigger employers might be able to have a course with 10 to 15 employees who can come to the fore. Once again, we will have a skills system that excludes SMEs.
David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford)
Your comments so far have been very interesting. There are two things I would like to raise. First, you mentioned publicity, and a lot of firms do not know what training is available. That obviously needs to be addressed by employers, politicians and the Government.Q
Secondly, one of the things we find when going around the country in various roles is that businesses complain that they are not getting people trained to have the skills they require. Do you think that the Bill will encourage more businesses to get more involved with universities and colleges, so that they can work together to make sure that they are encouraging colleges and universities to have the courses to fill the skills shortages? Subsequently, the firms will be able to participate in the upskilling, as well as individuals, or the Government.
Gill Furniss (Labour, Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough)
IQ am glad that Matthew referred to the local skills improvement plans. I would be interested in hearing what your view is as to what connectivity they should have with the system that is coming forward. That is one question.
My other question is probably to Simon. I started work in the ’90s, and we definitely had a skills shortage then. It seems that we have always had a skills shortage, so why is that? What have we learned or not learned from it? What is wrong with the current system? How will this solve the problem?
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Picking up on Toby’s point about the squeezing out of small and medium-sized enterprises, has the CBI done any thinking or work about any fiscal advantages in favour of SMEs to encourage employer engagement in training? It seems that may be a block.Q
Clearly, we want employers to invest in training as best we can. If SMEs are being excluded, should we be considering, in addition to these measures, some fiscal settlement for SMEs to give them an advantage over the larger employers?
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Yes. You said the LLE was not necessarily the silver bullet.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
With a brief final question, Toby Perkins.
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q Matthew, you were speaking about advertising the programme. When more businesses know about it, might some of them say, “Well, actually, I don’t have to pay for training myself any more. I don’t have to pay it through my apprenticeship levy pot. I can expect my employees to start investing in themselves, rather than me spending this money.” Do you see the possibility of this shifting the burden of who pays for training?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
I would love to know the answer, but unfortunately it is now 2.30 pm.
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Oh goodness!
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Thank you to both Simon and Matthew. If you have anything else to say, you can always do so in writing.
Examination of Witness
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Sir Philip Augar. Would you like to introduce yourself to the Committee?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Thank you.
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q As the key architect of the lifelong loan entitlement, are you happy?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Are you content that the approach in the Bill—as you know, it is in essence a technical Bill with three clauses—is the right one?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Finally, in terms of the phased approach, starting off at levels 4 and 5 and moving on to level 6, are you happy with the direction of travel and the timing?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Thank you.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Sir Philip, thank you for joining us and for all your work on this subject with your panel members. I am interested to know whether you have any thoughts about or concerns over the financial ramifications of what this might mean for institutions—as we currently have funding within this £37,000 budget. Do you have any views on financial sustainability?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Yes.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Thank you. On the Bill, we have a figure of £37,000 as the envelope for the personal lifelong loan entitlement. Say we are in 2033, 10 years from now: should it still be £37,000, or should we be, in some way, linking that to inflation? Clearly, someone could be doing a couple of modules now, and some in five years’ time and in 10 years’ time.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q But given the nature of what LLE is trying to deliver, it could be over a 20-year span, in terms of someone taking up their £37,000—
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Fine. Finally, can you give any thoughts about an individual trying to assess the choice of course they may undertake? How should we be measuring the relative quality of the modules?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Thank you.
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q There are several things that could result in this not leading to the amount of take-up that we all hope for, and one of those is not enough institutions actually offering courses in this format. You spoke in your review about the incentives for higher education institutions needing to change, and those changing their behaviour. At this stage, are you able to see whether there is enough in this to mean that we are likely to get the enough course availability for people for this to be the game changer that you hoped?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q I will not ask you to name the forward-thinking institutions, but is there a danger that the Russell Group universities will say this is not for them, and it will be what some people see as secondary HE institutions that do it? Is there a danger that it will get seen as a second-rate option at level 6 when we get to that?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Thank you.
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Q Sir Philip, you talked earlier about the role of parents and pupils, and their ability to make informed choices. In the course of your work, did you come to any views about engagement with business? As MPs, we see a mixed bag in terms of business engagement in the education system and the transfer of knowledge about opportunity. Did you come to any views about whether, for example, there is space in the curriculum to develop this sort of awareness and engagement? How important is that?
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Q But is there space in the curriculum in our schools and colleges?
Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)
Thank you.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
We are coming to the last couple of minutes. A brief question from Matt Western.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Just a brief question in the remaining seconds. I am not asking this for personal reasons, but do you have any views on the age cap of 60 for accessing the lifelong loan entitlement? Given some of the skills shortages, the expertise and the Government talking about returnerships, do you think there would be an advantage in making it later than 60?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Thank you very much, Sir Philip.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Q We now move back to Zoom. Welcome, David Hughes, chief executive of the Association of Colleges. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
Good afternoon. Minister, would you like to start with questions?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Thank you. David, when I have met you in the past, you have often said, “What about the colleges?” That is the catchphrase you shout frequently, and I agree with you. The previous witness, Sir Philip Augar, said that this measure would benefit further education quite significantly. Do you agree with that? What do you think the impact of LLE will be on FE in general?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q There is an issue that 10% of the adult population have levels 4 and 5, so there is a concentration on that. Earlier, we heard about the collaboration between Nottingham Trent University and the college in Mansfield in terms of delivering the LLE. Do you think there will be a lot more collaboration between HE and FE once the lifelong loan entitlement has come through?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Finally, we have talked about credit transfer in terms of HE. What do you think the response of colleges will be to credit transfer? Do you think they will embrace it, or do you think some colleges will do it more than others?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Thank you.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Thank you for joining us, David. I am concerned that, although there will clearly be some advantage in terms of driving and hopefully improving the numbers who access FE and HE through this route, there are, as we heard from previous witnesses, costs associated with delivering this proposal, in terms of the administration not only for students but more widely. Given the financial circumstances of colleges, to which you alluded, what should be the concerns? Does this idea need much more funding to make it viable?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q You mentioned that you would like to see, as I think we all would, greater progression from levels 1 and 2; what more should be done to encourage progression from those levels to level 3 and maybe level 4?
Gill Furniss (Labour, Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough)
Q You have more or less answered quite a few of my questions. My concerns are about the disparity in pay between school and FE and between FE and HE. It worries me that this proposal cannot be successful unless the Government put in some investment to make it more equitable, because, as you say, recruitment and retention is a massive difficulty, particularly in specialist subject areas where people can earn far more in business. Do you agree?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Following on from that, given the modulisation and the ability for people to draw down things and then use the credits in other institutions later on in life to build up a portfolio of higher education, is there a danger that some universities will be less willing to take on students who need additional support and will wind up pushing them into the Association of Colleges members to do the work that sometimes they have to do? We see that a bit in the American system. People go to a community college, which is where the Q heavy lifting is done to get someone ready to learn, and then they go off and do their final year at an institution, and the institution gets all the kudos. Is there a danger of something similar happening with this?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Is that fair? When we talk about the cost basis we are talking about the same for both institutions rather than understanding that colleges, rather than having less than they have at the moment, might need more to do this than a university would.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Finally, could I ask about diversion from what employers are paying at the moment? The Association of Colleges will have lots of your members running adult education and lifelong learning courses that employers pay for because they want to upskill their workers. Are there significant protections in the Bill to stop employers offloading that to the personal debt of the individual and then not putting the professional development money in that they should do?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
I am afraid we have run out of time, so there is no time for further questions. Thank you very much for your contribution to the Committee this afternoon, David Hughes.
Examination of Witnesses
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
We now hear evidence from Dr Elizabeth Norton, policy adviser from Coventry University, and Professor Sue Rigby, Vice-Chancellor of Bath Spa University. Please can you start by introducing yourselves?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Do you think that introducing the fee limit method based on credits is sensible from a higher education and university perspective?
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
On the OfS, there will be registration for new providers. What is your view of that? Is that the right way forward?Q
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
What is your view on the provisions working for FE providers who are fairly new to this system?Q
Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)
Q Professor Rigby, you talked about unintended consequences. What is your view on how they should be dealt with?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q You will be aware that the legislation envisages moving from an academic to a course year, which can start at any time and run for 12 months from there. Universities, like colleges, are traditionally much more used to a big intake at the start of the academic year, checking out later on. Often, they have monetised their facilities over the summer, encouraging foreign students in that period. What sort of challenges will moving to the proposed approach pose for universities? In practical terms, do you see a lot of courses starting at other times of the year or, as it is broadly up to universities what they choose to run, will they end up choosing to run in line with when they do currently?
Toby Perkins (Labour, Chesterfield)
Q On your own institutions providing level 4 and 5 courses—with level 6 coming further downstream—do you anticipate offering significant numbers of those courses, or will you wait predominantly until the level 6 offer?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q May I start with a couple of questions to you, Professor Rigby? On how the legislation is written, I have sensed concern elsewhere about giving the Secretary of State powers to remove modules or to say that they will not be funded. What is your view of how such powers might be exercised were we to have an institution or organisation where there is, not a vendetta, but a certain sense of action against it?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q For the measurement of quality, how do you see modules being given some sort of sense of currency by OfS or whoever?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Dr Norton, do you want to come in on that? Then I have a specific question for you.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q The sector has made it clear that some of the regulatory burden it faces is far greater than it was, say, five years ago. What concerns do you have about the introduction of the LLE in terms of the additional administrative burden it might bring on an institution? I am conscious, Dr Norton, that Coventry is at the vanguard as one of the early adopters of modularised learning. What, in your experience, does that look like in administrative terms?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Related to that financial forecasting, one concern that the Government have been raising in the last year or so has been about continuation completion. What is your experience with modularisation? Are you seeing lower, higher or similar numbers of drop-outs?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Listening to what you are saying, I am trying to chase through a real-world example because I do not have your expertise in the field. I am hearing that we need some kind of standardisation within the modules that allows for a certain transferability. For example, if you are doing artificial intelligence, a basic tick-box, “I understand what a black box AI system is,” would be worth 30 credits in theory, and would be applicable across the piece. I am also hearing that to get to that level of granularization across your full curricular suite is going to be burdensome.Q
Is there an argument that says we start small, by introducing it only for level 4 and 5, with level 6 to come, and that we focus on the more technical, easy-to-define areas of study at levels 4 and 5? They also have the happy coincidence of being in demand in the job market. Is it possible that we could go some way without having to modularise, for example, archaeology? I love archaeology, but you know what I mean. Can you help me understand what I have got wrong in that sentence?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q Okay. So while the modularisation of the 80 subjects is a potential issue, it is not a day one issue but can happen over time as well?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
So the Elrathia trilobites that we probably both have at home are still 500 million years old.
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q And that would achieve 4 and 5, but it is 6 where the problem kicks in.
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q Sorry to interrupt, I just want to understand you. Surely at that point, the individual who has agency within their learning, whether by their employer or from their own heft, has the ability to choose. You can get through 4 and 5 and potentially have a positive impact in the labour market, and then when 6 comes along you can move forward. I am just trying to understand why it stops the spirit of the lifelong loan entitlement, which is to give people modular access to learning.
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
I would agree with that. I started off coding visual basic C, and I can code ABAP 4 and VBA. You would get quite close to a computing degree—that is 20 years’ worth of technology.
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Fine—now I understand you. Ecology might not be top of the list—I am a biologist who did a lot of ecology so I can say it—and that is a bit like archaeology. The initial stuff at level 4, 5 and, ideally, 6 could be more granular in detail and perhaps more obviously tied to a job—moving satellites around in space or whatever. Thank you very much for putting up with my questions.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q That was very interesting. At the moment with a three-year degree something that protects students from universities completely destroying their course is that universities have to honour the programme they started with. You will allow a cohort to continue. I have been in many fights while representing the unions when universities have done that. I should make a reference to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests on that. With a modularisation process over 10 years, is there a danger that someone starts a process of collecting credits and modules that they want to pursue over a long period and ends up at a dead end, where they have used up all their money and credits but are not able to get the degree because it does not exist any more? How can that be mitigated?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q So there has to be some acceptance in other courses and pathways and possibly other institutions of these credits and modules. That happens on a case-by-case basis, building up institutions’ networks. Does there need to be more co-ordination or somewhere for that information to be published, so that, rather than having to go to a university and find out whether it accepts a module, a student can go to a portal and see whether a module is accepted and where they can transfer it, or is that unnecessary?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q Where would the support come from for people wanting to design that journey, not from the institution’s point of view but from the learner’s perspective, to understand what those modules mean, rather than just having lots of institutions shouting at them, “Come to us”?
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Labour/Co-operative, Brighton, Kemptown)
Q At the moment, a student who is choosing different modules in a course will have guidance from their institution—for example, they will speak to their tutor, who will say, “Actually, maybe that’s not the best one to do”—to make sure they are following the right pathway. Should it just be the Office for Students, or do institutions have a role in that beyond the fixed period during which someone has studied with them?
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
It will have to be a short answer.
Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)
We have come to the end of the session. Thank you very much for your evidence. There have been some interesting comments. The Committee will meet again on Thursday at 11.30 am for line-by-line consideration of the Bill.