Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill
Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2022.
(Morning)
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Good morning, colleagues. I have a few preliminary announcements. Hansard would love to have any speaking notes emailed to them at hansardnotes@ parliament.uk. Keep your phones and devices on silent please.
Today, we will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication, and then a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions, before the fun and games of the oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope we can take these matters formally without debate, but that is entirely up to you.
Let us deal first of all with the programme motion. I call the Minister to move the programme motion, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
The Committee will therefore proceed to line-by-line consideration on Tuesday 28 June at 9.25 am.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and will be circulated to members of the Committee by email.
Examination of Witness
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Q Do any Members wish to make declarations of interest in connection with the Bill? I do not see any Members signalling that.
We will now hear oral evidence from Professor Dame Ottoline Leyser, chief executive of UK Research and Innovation. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we will stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has just agreed. For this session, we have until 10.10 am. Dame Ottoline, you are very welcome. Would you introduce yourself for the record?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Thank you. I call Minister Neil O’Brien to open the session.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q Thank you, Professor Leyser, for coming this morning. I start with a very open-ended question. To what extent do you think the Bill will help achieve some of the goals set out in the levelling-up White Paper?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q The Bill sets out various measures to widen the devolution agenda. It also puts into law the various missions set out in the levelling-up White Paper. For context, will you explain how in your particular area of expertise that fits with the wider agenda of ensuring that research and development spending serves the goals of levelling up, and what that means for UKRI as an organisation?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q One of the missions takes forward the Government’s ambition to increase our public domestic R&D spending outside the greater south-east by a third over the spending review period. How do you feel about that mission? On the level of ambition, are there things you would change about it; is the balance right; should we be doing things in a different way; should we be locking it in more tightly? Given all those different sorts of questions, is that balance between that objective and other priorities for UKRI right? How do you feel about the mission broadly speaking?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Thank you, Professor Leyser, for your time this morning. In your role as a member of the Levelling Up Advisory Council, with respect to levelling up, do you think that at the moment things are getting better, or are they getting better quicklyQ ?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q You mentioned the importance of the missions in your first answer. The missions themselves do not appear in the Bill in explicit form, as they do in the White Paper; rather, it is stated that there should be missions. You will have heard the concern from the Opposition, and indeed from others, that that approach will give Ministers a lot of freedom and perhaps the ability to mark their own homework. How do you think we could get some independence into the system?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you. I have just one more question, turning to your work and your previous response on regional growth. You have been part of a really successive triangle of work in Cambridge that brings together business and academia and has had great development success—success that we are seeking to see elsewhere in the country. What are the features of a local economy that really motors like that? What do we need to have elsewhere in order to see that success?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
You will be aware of the allegations—the suspicions in certain quarters—about how transparent and impartial the allocation of the towns fund awards were. Given that similar concerns have been expressed by the Public Accounts Committee about the potential for this with levelling-up funds, what measures do you think would be helpful to allay the fears that distribution of levelling-up awards might be open to similar charges of lack of transparency and of impartialityQ ?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q To follow up on that, there are communities that would really benefit from levelling-up funding, and the indices of multiple deprivation to assess need are not being used here. Do you have any concerns or comments about that?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q On the topic of R&D, do you think there is any merit in involving the devolved Parliaments at the decision-making stage, in terms of a strategic overview of the effective use of resources?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I call Tim Farron. Will you bear in mind I have another question after you? Thank you.
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
ProfessorQ Leyser, thank you for being with us. The Bill states its commitment to widening opportunity and tackling disparities between regions. Obviously, economic disparities and opportunity disparities exist within regions and communities. The biggest driver of that must be access to housing that people can afford. In the last two years, there has been a 50% drop in the number of long-term lets available and an 11% rise in rents, which are clearly linked. If we are to tackle disparities, surely we will want to tackle the lack of affordable housing for so many people. What in the Bill enables that to happen, through either the missions or the powers that local authorities might be given to tackle that disparity?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Thank you. I represent a rural community in Cumbria. The problems there are specific. As a member of the advisory board, do you think there is room for different rules to apply in different parts of the United Kingdom, so that certain local authorities might have different powers from others to, for example, control the number of holiday lets and second homes, so that there is a decent number of affordable and available properties for a permanent population?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Professor Leyser, given that economicQ cluster development grows exponentially, what risks do you foresee of the legislation choking off development space for the growth of economic clusters, particularly inward investment on key strategic sites? Housing developers getting a quick return and receipt, for example, could choke off the opportunity to grow a cluster outwards.
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q Do you believe that there is anything missing from the legislation that could enhance economic opportunity?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Professor Leyser, thank you so much for your evidence, and in particular for the kind things you said about Northern Ireland—not that I am biased in any way whatsoever.
Examination of Witnesses
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now hear oral evidence from Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire. Should I say welcome home, Tracy, or welcome back? The panel has until 10.50 am. For the record, will you please introduce yourself formally?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q It is lovely to see you again, Tracy. It is a little different with all the screens, but we are really grateful for your time this morning. My first question is quite an open one. You, as Mayor of West Yorkshire, have similar powers to lots of other Mayors, but different powers from some others. What more would you add to your role—whether that is powers that other Mayors currently have or other things done by central Government—that would mean you could do what you are seeking to do in West Yorkshire?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q I appreciate that, Tracy. Given the company that you have this morning, this is probably a pertinent question: can you talk to us—from your own personal experience and having talked to your colleagues in the M10—about what it is like to work with a combined authority and about the features of a good local collaboration?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Tracy, I am going to have to cut you off, because we need slightly shorter answers. I will ask the Minister—who does not believe in “churn of Ministers”—to ask you a question.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Tracy, thank you for taking the time to be with us this morning—it is much appreciated.Q
Clauses 60 and 61 will simplify and streamline the processes for setting up new combined authorities. West Yorkshire is lucky, because it already had a combined authority from 2014. From your own experience of getting the mayoral combined authority set up and from the wider experiences of the M10 group, could you say anything about the complexity and time taken to set up new combined authorities? I appreciate that people are full of enthusiasm and want to get on with it, but that, at the moment, they have to go through some quite laborious processes to get going. What was your experience of that? Do you welcome provisions that would simplify and speed up the process of getting going with CAs?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Thank you. When I was a child in Huddersfield, we originally had a metropolitan county council; we then went through a long period of having no elected city region-wide leadership. How do you compare the experience of having a directly elected Mayor to either of those previous regimes—either having no elected leadership, or having a county council or assembly-type model? Do you think the mayoral model is preferableQ ?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
The Bill makes it simpler for Mayors to take on police commissioner powers. What are the advantages for Mayors of having police commissioner powers? Does it allow integration across different subjects in your activityQ ?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
I have one last quick question. West Yorkshire has what some people describe as a strong Mayor model, whereby the Mayor needs to be on the side of the majority for various decisions to be taken. There is a diversity of decision-making structures in the existing MCAs. What would you say are some of the advantages of having a strong mayoral model or strong decision making for particular subjects?Q
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Thank you, Tracy; it is nice to see you again. Your region is significantly diverse, with both rural and urban areas. Like every other part of the UK, you will have seen a worsening housing crisis in the last couple of years, particularly in the private rented sector, which appears to be evaporating into short-term lets, especially in your rural communities. What powers does the Bill give you to ensure the availability of affordable for the people you represent?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q A quick follow-up: which powers relating to housing stock would you like in the Bill so that you can ensure sufficient affordable and available homes for people in every part of your region?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q Tracy, it is nice to see you again. This Bill is about levelling up, yet the different mayoralties have different powers and cover different geographical spaces, and therefore have different economic inequality between them. How do you think that real levelling up can come across all regions and indeed all nations through this legislation?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q Do you believe that having West Yorkshire as a combined authority provides sufficient leverage to bring about the economic regeneration that you seek, or do you believe that the unit is perhaps too small and there should be a Yorkshire-wide, more combined authority? Some will be much smaller—for instance, North Yorkshire.
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q If I may ask one more question, what additional fiscal powers would enable you to have better leverage in being able to deliver your programme?
Robbie Moore (Conservative, Keighley)
Morning, Tracy; it is good to see you. I want to touch on the point around accountability. You mentioned the role of accountability with Government, but do you think the Bill will improve your accountability or the role of a Mayor directly with the electorate?Q
Robbie Moore (Conservative, Keighley)
Q You touched previously on the differences in your and Greater Manchester’s mayoralty structure, in that you are both also responsible for setting a police and crime strategy and therefore do not have a police and crime commissioner. Under that model, you and Greater Manchester each have a Deputy Mayor for Policing, who is appointed by you, rather than directly elected by the electorate. Does that make the process as accountable to the electorate as possible, when it comes to setting the police and crime strategy?
Robbie Moore (Conservative, Keighley)
Q Would you advocate rolling out that model—with that type of dual structure—further, through the Bill?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I call Stuart Andrew.
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q Good morning Tracy; it is good to see you.
I want to return to planning. We share an ambition, in that we obviously want the right houses in the right places for our population. Much of the Bill is about community-led planning—that is, ensuring that communities have a say in where houses should be built, so that we can improve support for development within communities. How would that marry up with a strategic approach that was perhaps done by Mayors? I often describe planning as something that people feel happens to them, rather than them being engaged in it. If Mayors around the country had lots of strategic planning rights and powers, is there a danger that we might negate the chance of improving community involvement in the planning system in order to build the houses we need?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Thank you.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Any other questions? No. That brings us to the end of the session. Tracy—Madam Mayor—thank you for your enthusiastic evidence. Ben, thank you for coming along for your evidence, too. It is most appreciated.
Examination of Witness
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Hello and good morning. We now come to oral evidence from the director of the Fraser of Allander Institute. Would you like to introduce yourself for the record?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Thank you very much, professor. We have until 11.25 am for this session. I will start with Patricia Gibson.
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q Thank you and welcome, Professor Spowage. The Public Accounts Committee has expressed concerns that the allocation of levelling-up funds could be at risk of being mired in the same kind of controversy and difficulties as the towns fund. Nobody wants to see that happen. What measures do you think would help to ensure that the allocation of any levelling-up funding is fully transparent and can be accounted for?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q What might the impact be on the entire levelling-up agenda? The Government have not used indices of multiple deprivation to assess need when distributing levelling-up funding.
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q To pursue that point, we know that the UK Government want the devolved Parliaments to be involved at the implementation stage rather than decision-making stage, as happened with the EU funding. What do you think the impact of not involving the devolved Parliaments at the decision-making stage is on the efficient use of resources and strategic overview?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q Do you think it would be helpful or desirable for an independent body to oversee and assess the UK Government’s progress on levelling up?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Professor Spowage, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us this morning. The Bill creates statutory requirements around the levelling ambitions that we were just discussing. One of those is on digital connectivity. Through Project Gigabit and the shared rural network, Scotland is likely to see particularly large increases in connectivity. How do we best drive growth, particularly in more rural parts of Scotland? How do we best measure progress in the roll-out of connectivity? Do you agree that the rise of online working is, potentially, a strong tailwind for the rural Scottish economyQ ?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
ThankQ you. One of the other missions for which the Bill is creating statutory requirements is to increase domestic public R&D investment outside greater south-east England by a third over this spending review period. Alongside that, there has been the creation of an innovation accelerator centred on the Glasgow city region. How can we best harness the large public investment in research and development to drive growth right across Scotland?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q That is very helpful. In your earlier answer you drew attention to the lack of UK-wide indices of multiple deprivation. We know that in the first round of the levelling-up fund, the 50% of local authorities that had the lowest median pay got roughly three quarters of the investments—it is targeting poorer areas. Would it be attractive, as part of the data drive in the levelling-up White Paper, to create more UK-wide indices of deprivation and other things?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you for your time this morning, Professor. Can you expand on an element of a previous answer you gave about the work that the Office for National Statistics, of which you are a fellow, is doing on developing a dataset in that area?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Do you feel that the outcome of that work might be a definitive set of statistics and measurements that we could use in this space, that we could perhaps seek to build consensus around? Is this particularly contested space in your community? It is in ours, as you may have noticed.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q That is a very handy caution for us with regard to using these statistics for allocation purposes. When it comes to measuring progress, would it be a little easier if we were not seeking to aggregate and to weight them but instead to use them as some sort of dashboard such that we would be able to form some sort of consensus on what indicators would show whether we were levelling up across the UK? Would we be able to reach a kind of breadth there, certainly in your community?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Hi, Professor; good to see you with us. You mentioned earlier the situation regarding a tight labour market. Thinking about rural communities in Scotland and England in particular and elsewhere in the UK, to what extent you think an absence or a lack of workforce is hampering those economies. In the Lake district, 63% of hospitality businesses last year reported that they were working below capacity, because of the lack of workforce. To what extent do you think that workforce problems—or lack of workforce—are hampering economic growth in certain areas? What is the cause? Does the Bill do anything to solve those problems?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q What might the Government do in the levelling-up Bill to help that situation? You talked in particular about the impact on rural communities—what might make it more affordable or attractive for people of all ages in the working-age population either to move to or to remain in rural communities?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Are there any metrics at all on what impact that is having on regional growth?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Thank you.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Any further questions, colleagues? No. Professor Spowage, I thank you for your evidence. It is much appreciated. Thank you for giving us your time and expertise today.
That brings to a conclusion our morning sitting.
(Afternoon)
Examination of Witnesses
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Welcome back. We are in public session and the proceedings are being broadcast. I encourage you to switch any mobile or electronic devices to silent. I welcome the fourth panel of witnesses. We will now hear oral evidence from Eamonn Boylan, chief executive of Greater Manchester Combined Authority; Laura Shoaf, chief executive of West Midlands Combined Authority; and Joanne Roney OBE, president of SOLACE and also chief executive of Manchester City Council. They are all joining us via Zoom.
Before calling the first Members to ask questions, I remind you all that questions should be limited to matters that are in scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee agreed this morning. This session will last until 2.40 pm. I find that with larger panels we should try to direct our questions to a specific member of the panel, otherwise one questioner could end up taking all of the session. I also encourage our panellists to be pithy in their answers, but if one of your colleagues has had a question directed to them and you think there is something really important that you need to say, please do indicate and say it because it will add to the evidential value.
I have already introduced the panel. For the sake of time, I will call our first questioner, Tim Farron.
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
First, it is great to see you all here. I am not sure who to put the first question to. The levelling-up Bill has provisions for communities that go through devolution settlements and local government reorganisation to have a Mayor, but for that to be called something else and for the title to be amended. Do you think that that is sufficient in terms of respecting the desires of a local community? Is it possible for a community that has not yet got a devolution settlement to construct their own governance arrangements without having a Mayor or anything like it, yet still be able to access the full devolution deal that the Government might offerQ43 ? I will pick Laura.
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Looking close to home in my neck of the woods, we have just gone through a local government reorganisation and we have two unitary authorities. Cumbria’s six districts are being abolished. The county council will be abolished and there will be two new authorities from next April: Westmoreland and Furness, and Cumberland. In both cases, those councils are now run by majority by parties that opposed the notion of a Mayor. Do you think it would be respecting the will of the people of those two parts of Cumbria to impose on them a Mayor, or to tell them that they could not have a devolution deal if they did not accept a Mayor?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I call the Minister.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q This question is for Eamonn and Laura. One of the missions the Bill will put on a statutory footing will increase public domestic research and development spending outside the greater south-east area of England by a third over the spending review period, and in both of your combined authorities there is an innovation accelerator on top of that. How can we best ensure that that mission is a success? How can we best ensure that the innovation accelerator does what it is supposed to do and catalyses significant amounts of further public and private investment into those two city regions? I will ask Eamonn to start.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q Thank you both. The Bill makes it easier and quicker to establish new combined authorities, either with or without a Mayor, in new parts of the country. How important has the role of the Mayor been in terms of being a figurehead and attracting inward investment to your two city regions, and catalysing wider conversations with Whitehall and other stakeholders? What difference has having a Mayor made in Greater Manchester and the West Midlands? I will ask Laura to start answering this question.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Thank you. Eamonn, would you add anything to that?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q The Bill strengthens and streamlines compulsory purchase order powers and creates the opportunity for local authorities to run high street rental auctions as part of a wider shift toward increasing places’ ability to do brownfield regeneration through the brownfield fund, with the new role of Homes England and so on. Are the strengthened CPO powers and the high street rental auctions and so on things you would welcome and which you could see your authorities and your constituent authorities using? I will aim that again at Eamonn and Laura mainly, but if anyone else wants to come in, please do.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q I have one last question to Laura. The Bill, among other things, makes it simpler for Mayors to take on the powers of the police and crime commissioner, effectively streamlining governance and creating a single point of accountability, which enables the join-up of different priorities between crime and transport and so on. If that were to happen and there were to be a decision in Westminster to do that, could you see that there would be some synergies from combining those two roles? You could join up transport and criminal justice policies.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Thank you, Laura. Unless Eamonn wants to add anything on that point, I am probably finished.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I will move over to the Opposition. I call Alex Norris.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Thank you, Sir Mark. I am grateful to the witnesses for being with us this afternoon. I will start with a basic question that is probably best answered by the chief executives of the combined authorities, but Joanne, please do contribute if you want to.Q
Your two combined authorities are seen as very much at the forefront of devolution to combined authorities and Mayors. Much of what we talk about in the context of the Bill is about how to push the rest of the country up to having similar levels of responsibility. What more do you want yourselves? What more do you want to build on your current settlement? Where might devolution go in the future for you?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Laura, what is your response from the West Midlands perspective?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you, Joanne. That leads me nicely into my next question, which is to you, perhaps with your Solace hat on, but obviously in your day-to-day leadership role in a local authority as well. How do your members feel about their current capacity to deliver what they need to as a council? How would they react to being asked to do more things?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q I have one more brief question, if I may—a final point on compulsory purchase orders, to ensure that I understood what was said in the previous answer. Notwithstanding issues of cost and capacity, which link to what Joanne just said, given what is on the face of the Bill on CPO, would you like to see anything further in the Bill, or do you think anything needs to be added or subtracted? Eamonn, you mentioned permitted development. That question is to any or all of the panellists.
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
To start, I have a question for Ms Roney. There are proposals to move from section 106 funding to a new infrastructure funding model. How will that be helpful in releasing funding to generate affordable and social housing? Where do you see the risks in that funding proposalQ ?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q Thank you. May I move on to the issue of viability appraisal, stacking up and being able to deliver projects? Clearly, there are multiple challenges with being able to deliver viable economic/residential projects, particularly in the north. What changes do you want to see to the Bill to make sure that such projects, which really do regenerate local communities, can be delivered?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Rachael, do you have any more questions?
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Q I have a couple more, if I may. On the planning changes proposed in the Bill, there is a sequencing around national infrastructure projects and local development plans. What do you consider to be the implications of the interruption of local development plans as a result of national infrastructure projects? What does that mean for your ability to pursue your housing and economic aspirations locally? I am talking about the Secretary of State’s powers.
Rachael Maskell (Labour/Co-operative, York Central)
Thank you.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Are there any further questions before we move on to the next panel?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
I have a question about the infrastructure levy that touches on the issues that my colleague just raised. Does the panel have any thoughts on the ways in which, if it is at all, the proposed infrastructure levy is more beneficial than the current arrangement? I appreciate that lots of detail needs to be filled in, but how would you—I suppose this is directed to Eamonn and Laura—see the infrastructure levy operating, particularly on complex brownfield sites?Q
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I have a brief follow-up question for Eamonn. You said one of the potential advantages is that the levy is extracted at the point that the value has been created. Do you foresee any disputes arising between local planning authorities or combined authorities and developers as to valuation appraisals at that point in time? Will we get conflict at that point in time between the two sides over what the precise value is and therefore what the levy should be?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Thank you.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
As there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. We will move to the next panel: we have two witnesses virtually and two present in the room. If Members wish to remove their jackets, please feel free to do so.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
We will now take oral evidence from Professor Graeme Atherton, head of the Centre for Inequality and Levelling Up at the University of West London; Rich Bell and Sacha Bedding from the We’re Right Here campaign; and Dr Parth Patel from the Institute for Public Policy Research. We have until 3.20 pm. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I understand that Government Members started the questioning last time, so I ask Alex or Matthew to start.
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q I will, if that is all right, Sir Mark. Good afternoon, panellists. I am really grateful for your time. I will direct my first question to Rich and Sacha. Your campaign is about community power. What do you think about what is in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Sacha, did you want to expand on that?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q This might be a good moment to go to you, Parth. In your research, you have looked at democracy and decision making. What does that tell you about who people are confident in, where they want to make decisions, and what involvement people in general want in decision making?
Alex Norris (Labour/Co-operative, Nottingham North)
Q Thank you. Graeme, we spoke a little in this morning’s sitting about the missions. As you know, whether the missions should be set out in the Bill, or whether the Bill should say instead that there should be some missions, is something of a politically contested space. We also talked a little about how we will understand progress. From your research in your unit at the university, how best can we as decision makers and legislators monitor levelling up and understand the impact of the various levelling-up missions and programmes?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Thank you to all the panellists; it is brilliant to see you here. My first question is to Dr Patel. Rural communities face inequality in accessing health services, given the geographical distances that people need to travel to receive healthcare. Thinking about cancer treatment, A&E and GP access, what evidence can you call on to indicate whether those large geographical distances have an impact on health outcomes?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q On using this Bill to provide rights to access, or giving local communities the powers of definition and delivery, so that GP practices are protected in rural communities or cancer treatment is brought closer to where people live, what provisions could be put into the Bill to make sure those things are delivered?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Thank you. I have a quick one for Rich and/or Sacha about planning. How much do you think the campaign to increase communities’ power over their destiny depends on the level of planning control and the kinds of powers communities have?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q This question is mainly for Sacha and Rich. It is about high street rental auctions, which the Bill introduces. As well as being an opportunity to improve our high streets and regenerate the local economy, do you think they are an opportunity for voluntary groups, small businesses and social enterprises to get themselves a place on the high street? How would you like to see community involvement in that high street rental auction process work?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
I noted your comments, Mr Bell, about the importance of team spirit in levelling up communities. Do you have any thoughts or comments about the fact that the Scottish Government will not be involved at the decision-making stage in the allocation of levelling-up funding? That suggests that there will be implications for duplication, the inefficient use of resources, and lack of strategic overviewQ .
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q The Institute of Economic Affairs has described the missions in the Bill as being of “dubious quality”. Do you have any concerns about whether there are sufficient or robust ways of objectively measuring the progress and impact of levelling up, given that many say that there appears to be a lack of accountability or even ownership for each of the missions? If you do have such concerns, how do you think that the Bill could, or should, be altered to address them?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Q Does Professor Atherton want to add anything?
Patricia Gibson (Scottish National Party, North Ayrshire and Arran)
Chair, perhaps we could let Sacha come in on that if he wants.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Quickly, because we have a number of people who still want to speak, and we are running a bit short on time. Sacha, do you want to come in on that?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Okay, Minister?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q I just want to return to the issue you raised on neighbourhood planning. There is an interesting concept there about the neighbourhood share, particularly in areas where there is not a parish council or town council. What potential issues might you see in terms of any conflict between the interests of that group and what they are wanting to deliver for that community and the wider community? What governance arrangements might be needed to ensure that there is transparency around the needs of that community and how they develop?
We have a significant number of neighbourhood planning groups and neighbourhood plans around the country. However, there are areas—particularly more deprived areas—that have not developed those. The Bill provides for the neighbourhood priority statements to introduce a simpler way for communities to think about how they want to improve their place. Do you see any issues around that area in the Bill that need to be looked at again? Is this a real opportunity for such groups to formulate how the needs of their communities are delivered on the ground for those towns and areas?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I call Matthew Pennycook.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q I have a follow-up question for Rich and Sacha on neighbourhood planning. Given the campaign’s interest in neighbourhood planning forums as a model for community covenants, as well as for neighbourhood planning in the suggested power of those covenants, can you expand on how you see the potential use and/or misuse of some of the measures in the Bill, especially national development management policies on the status and functioning of local planning and, in particular—because it is an important aspect—on participation and trust in that process at a local level?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Sacha, do you want to add anything to that?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I call Darren Henry.
Darren Henry (Conservative, Broxtowe)
I was just observing that one of the missions is on transport infrastructure, for example, which will move closer to the model in London by 2030Q . When Parth gave the example of the health and life expectancy case study in East and West Germany, the question struck me of whether the Government are being ambitious enough. We have an opportunity of a blank sheet of paper for a deprived area. Could we look at best practice in transport for example? Seoul and Tokyo are good examples that we could aim for.
Darren Henry (Conservative, Broxtowe)
Q Okay. I will go to one more witness. Out of Sacha and Rich, who would like to answer that question?
Darren Henry (Conservative, Broxtowe)
Q Parth, do you have anything to add?
Darren Henry (Conservative, Broxtowe)
Thank you.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Final question from Sarah Atherton. We are running close to time, so can your question be quick, Sarah?
Sarah Atherton (Conservative, Wrexham)
Can I pick up on community involvement again and the need for ownership and the sense that a community belongs to a project? Perhaps Sacha and Rich could give their opinions on the street votes.Q
Sarah Atherton (Conservative, Wrexham)
Sacha, do you have any comments?
Sarah Atherton (Conservative, Wrexham)
Q Do you have any suggestions, like the community right to buy?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Order. I am sorry, but we have run out of time for questions to this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I think we have some technical problems with some of the witnesses, but we have Sam Chapman-Allen, chair of the District Councils Network. Would you like to introduce yourself, Sam?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Thank you—that is fine. We are just a bit anxious about the other two members of the panel not being able to connect yet. I will throw the questions open to the Government side first.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q Thank you, Sam, and thank you for making the time this afternoon. One of the goals of the Bill is to amend the law in order to make it easier for us to extend the devolution of powers to more areas outside our cities, particularly areas with two-tier governance, and to respect that two-tier governance. It both makes the process of setting up a combined authority quicker, and also creates combined county authorities. The Government’s intention through combined county authorities is to leave the option of having a mayoral combined authority in place, but to create a model in which the consent of every single district in the area is not needed for the creation of the combined authority.
However, it is the Government’s intention to have a strong role for lower-tier authorities once those combined authorities are created. I wonder if I could pick your brains on what sorts of things your members might want to combine powers on as voting members of those new CCAs or through joint committees, for instance as a single local authority devolution deal. What sorts of powers would your members potentially want to combine powers on, and to what end?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q That is helpful. Can I press you a little further on that? Obviously, the Government completely agree that no sovereign body should lose power without consent, and that lower-tier councils should have a vote where they are pooling powers. In the light of what districts and boroughs do at present—culture, waste, democracy, tourism, leisure, inward investment, planning, homelessness and so on—how can we best use the new models of combined authority in two-tier areas? How can we best set things up to make it as easy as possible for districts to come together in the ambitious way that you have described?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I call Matthew Pennycook.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
To clarify, Chair, will we not be able to get the other witnesses in?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
It is looking iffy at the moment. If they do not appear, we can have a brief discussion about how to address it at the end of the sitting.
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Great—I will tailor my questions accordingly. Sam, thank you for attending. Do you foresee any issues with the requirements in clauses 75 to 81 relating to planning data and digitisation? Local planning officers will go to their IT departments and ask them to help facilitate that digitisation. Are district councils sufficiently well resourced, in terms of their IT capabilities, to manage the introduction of and ongoing compliance with those sorts of standards?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q That is really helpful; thank you. Some specific software requirements are proposed in clause 78. Do you think that there is a risk that they might undermine public investment in software tools that have already been purchased and are in use, if the Government are in a sense dictating the types of software that need to be used across the country?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q On the national management development policies, clauses 83 and 84, the LGA has published concerns. Does the DCN share those to any extent? In particular, will you comment on how you see the impact of national management development policies on the ability of district councils to tailor plans to their local circumstances, to innovate and to embed higher standards that the Government might want to see in particular areas?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Great. I have two more questions, Chair—I will try to rattle through them. Sam, earlier you touched on planning officers and the profession. Do you think that this Bill is missing an opportunity to address some of the issues around morale, capability, resourcing and status of planning officers within authorities?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Brilliant. Just finally, nowhere in legislation is the purpose of our planning system set down. Do you think there is any value in more clearly defining the aims of the planning system? Is this Bill an opportunity to do that?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
I call the Minister, Stuart Andrew.
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q Thank you very much, Sir Mark. I am half-tempted to say, “G’day, Sam.” Thank you for your time today.
Just touching on the local plans, obviously at the moment we have about 39% of England covered by local plans, which means that there is a significant area not covered by them. Clearly, the Bill is trying to simplify the process of developing local plans. What has been the reaction your members of to the measures in the Bill to try to achieve that, and are there any other suggestions they have made that they think would be helpful, so that we can get more local plans in place within a much shorter timescale than we are currently experiencing?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Just before you answer that question, Sam, can I just bring it to the Committee’s attention that we have now been joined by Councillor James Jamieson, chair of the Local Government Association, and Councillor Tim Oliver, chair of the County Councils Network. Welcome to the sitting. I am sorry that you have had those technical problems, but we are glad to see you here. We are just partway through a question from the Minister, Stuart Andrew, at the moment. I will bring you both in and we will obviously tailor some of the questions towards you both as the sitting progresses.
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q Thank you. I will try to give you a bit of a breather now, and involve our other two witnesses.
I want to turn to the infrastructure levy. The intention behind this is that it is non-negotiable, to try and reduce all the time that planning officers seem to spend on negotiation. Are the measures welcome? On the development of the infrastructure statements that local planning authorities have, do you see the opportunity for greater working between county and district councils in agreeing, as part of a local plan, the sort of infrastructure that is needed within those communities ahead of development being granted?
Stuart Andrew (Conservative, Pudsey)
Q Tim, do you have anything to add from a county council’s perspective?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Thanks Stuart. Just before I bring in Tim Farron, I will give both Neil and Matthew the opportunity to ask a question to the other two panellists, who unfortunately were not present earlier. Neil, have you got any brief questions? I will then bring in Matthew.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Q Thank you, Sir Mark. James and Tim, the Bill contains measures both to simplify and accelerate the process of creating new combined authorities, be they mayoral or non-mayoral, and to create a new type of combined authority, which is more regularly usable in two-tier areas and respects the division of powers in those areas. I do not know what your views are on how much interest there is among your members in forming further combined authorities and doing further devolution deals. What is your view of the powers to accelerate and create new models to enable us to move forward with devolution in two-tier areas and avoid the unintended consequence of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, which gave each district in an area a veto over its neighbours and led to us not moving forward with deals in Lincolnshire and in Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire previously? I suggest James answers first.
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Thank you. TimQ ?
Neil O'Brien (Conservative, Harborough)
Thank you.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Matthew, do you have any questions for the two panellists?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q You will be relieved to hear I am not going to go over all my questions, Sir Mark, but I will ask James and Tim the specific question that I asked Sam about clauses 75 to 81 on planning data and digitisation. Can you foresee any issues with how authorities can implement those measures, specifically in terms of how well resourced IT departments are to do so? In his response, Sam from the District Councils Network said that yes, it will all work fine, presuming that the correct amount of capital support, and so on, comes with it. What needs to come with the Bill for you to properly implement those measures around data and digitisation?
Matthew Pennycook (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)
Q Great. Tim, anything to add?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Hello to all three of you; it is really nice to see you. Thank you very much for your time. My question is on housing and planning, so it is probably for Sam, but with a little bit of James, and we would be perfectly interested to hear what Tim has to say as well.
If we take it as a given that, particularly in the rural communities that many district councils serve, there is a collapse of the private rented sector into the Airbnb sector and a massive growth in second home ownership at the expense of permanent occupied dwellings, do you think that this Bill gives you any additional powers that help you to push back against that? What additional powers would you like?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Thanks. James?
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q Yes. I have one totally separate question—hopefully it will be of interest to all of you. The Government state that having an elected Mayor is essential to providing strong leadership. Do you agree? Are there exceptions?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Could you answer quickly? We have one more question—possibly two—and we are running very short on time.
Tim Farron (Liberal Democrat, Westmorland and Lonsdale)
Q I think Tim might want to come in.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Okay. A couple of words, Sam?
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Greg Smith, you have half a minute for a question and half a minute for an answer.
Greg Smith (Conservative, Buckingham)
Thank you, Sir Mark. A big theme we are talking about today is localism in the Bill. Many a council over recent decades has been elected on a promise to stop overdevelopment, only to then preside over massive development. The common excuse is Government targets. Should there be a nationally set house building number, or should it be left entirely to local areas to decide what is needed?Q
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Who do you want to answer that?
Greg Smith (Conservative, Buckingham)
Let’s go to Councillor Jamieson, who is chairman of the Local Government Association.
Mark Hendrick (Labour/Co-operative, Preston)
Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions in this afternoon’s sitting. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses for their evidence. The Committee will meet again at 11.30 am on Thursday in this room to hear further oral evidence. Thank you all for attending.