Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2021.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Before we begin, I have a couple of preliminary announcements. I remind hon. Members that they are expected to wear face coverings and to maintain distancing, as far as possible. This is in line with the current Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. Please give one another and members of staff space when seated and when entering and leaving the room. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members emailed their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent mode. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings. Today, we will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper and then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to debate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the timetable available, I hope that we can deal with those matters formally, without debate. Nods all round—thank you very much. The programme motion, standing in the Minister’s name, was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Members by email.
Examination of witnesses
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
The meeting in public is now resumed and the proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interests in connection with this Bill?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
I come from a farming family.
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
I come from a farming family.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
I am a veterinary surgeon, a fellow of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and a member of the British Equine Veterinary Association.
Robbie Moore (Conservative, Keighley)
I am also from a farming family.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
All done; all declared.
We will now hear oral evidence from David Bowles, head of public affairs at the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and from Paula Boyden, veterinary director of the Dogs Trust. Before calling the first Members to ask questions, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this session, we have until 10.30 am. Could the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Hello. I am the Minister taking the Bill through. It is good to have you here. Could you start by giving us your views of the Bill, in general?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Thank you so much for coming to give evidence to us. The aim of the Bill is to bring all those who keep primates up to the level that you would expect in a zoo. I noticed, David, that you focused in on the welfare concerns, which are of course the aim of the Bill. Why would you be concerned who is keeping the primate as long as we know that they are being kept to zoo-level standards?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Thank you very much; that is really helpful evidence. Can we move on to puppy smuggling, or dog smuggling generally? I will also ask Paula this question in a minute; we have heard evidence that a certain number of pet owners keep more than three or four animals and, occasionally, travel with them. The most interesting evidence we have had is from Brittany Ferries, which chose a limit of five animals per vehicle. Would you like to tell us more about your sources of evidence, and about your feeling that a reduction to a limit of three would not impact on genuine pet owners?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q You can still go to a dog show—you would be part of the exemption—but someone travelling with a pair of dogs, with a friend who has their pair of dogs, would be caught by the reduction. Have you done an estimate of how many genuine travellers would be affected?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Paula, would you like to come in on that?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Yes, that is one of the reasons that we are taking regulation-making powers in the Bill: so that we can adjust our regulatory mechanism to cope with the changing world of puppy smuggling, which, as we have seen, changes very quickly—there is a lot of money at stake.
To move on to livestock worrying for a moment, how do you think we can best encourage dog owners to act responsibly around livestock?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Are there differences of opinion within the Dogs Trust on the lead issue?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
It is a pleasure to be on this Committee. I am really looking forward to it. I think is an interesting and important Bill. Thank you both for giving evidence this morning.Q
Going to the RSPCA first, this is a slightly odd Bill, in the sense that it is a collection of bits and pieces. While being careful to remain within the scope of the Bill, it is perfectly possible to imagine that there are other things that could have been included. Could you reflect on that first? What would your priorities be if you were drawing up this Bill from scratch?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q That is a very fair point. Turning to primates, I think lots of us are slightly puzzled as to who is keeping primates at the moment. It seems we do not really know how many there are. What is the RSPCA’s view? If I wander around my constituency in Cambridge, am I likely to stumble on someone keeping a primate in their house?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I think it was fairly clear on Second Reading that there is a strong feeling across the House that people would like to see this practice banned; the question is how we do it. One question that troubles me is what happens to those animals if we implement a ban in that transition period. What is the RSPCA’s view on how to do that?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
I will try not to hog the witnesses, but may I ask two more questions?
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Absolutely.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Moving on to dogs, I want to return to a point that David touched on around enforcement and, I would say, unintended consequences. There are a number of elements in the Bill where I worry the unintended consequences could mean dogs are possibly kept for long periods of time while legal investigations are going on. We have discussed that in other fora before, around the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. What would the Dogs Trust recommend that we do to tackle that in general across the Bill?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
I have one final question for David. There is lots in the Bill about dogs. We have had representations from those who speak for cats. In a lot of cases the nasty stuff we are going to clamp down on is about money, and there is a worry that, if it works on dogs, people will then switch to cats, and there is not sufficient strength in the Bill to stop that happening. What is the RSPCA’s view on that?Q
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
That is very helpful. Thank you.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Paula, you talked about clarity on the age of animals being brought in. There are many welcome suggestions in the Bill. Many people have said, and I share the concerns, that we need more clarity and detail in the Bill, on issues such as increasing the age to six months, and you talked about reintroducing the rabies titre test. Also, the Bill talks about mutilations, but does not specify the mutilations; there is a similar point about the number of days pregnant. Currently, importation is illegal in the last 10% of gestation, but it is actually very difficult to ascertain how heavily pregnant an animal is.
Can you give us some evidence to help us in terms of tightening up the Bill through putting in numbers, such as six months of age; reintroducing health checks; the rabies titre test; and specifying mutilations such as cropped ears? The hon. Member for Cambridge talked about declawed cats as well. Can you give us specific asks? For example, how heavily pregnant should it be—is it in the last 30% to 50% of gestation? What can we do to tighten up the Bill to make the provisions clearer to the outside world?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Thank you; that is really helpful. Finally, do you feel that if we added some specifics to the Bill, that would give clarity in how we legislate? Obviously, the science is evolving, but the Secretary of State potentially then has discretion to add things as the science develops. In terms of putting six months in the Bill, putting in pre-import health checks for things like brucellosis and specifying some of the mutilations, do you think that that would give clarity to the Bill?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
I am very interested in and intrigued by this issue; I have a background in local government, so I understand how difficult it is at the moment to take part in these schemes and things like them. What do you think that Government would need to provide to allow local authorities to be able to enforce the licensing part of keeping primates as petsQ ?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q That is certainly true on enforcement for things such as tobacco, interestingly. I know that you have suggested that this measure is pretty unworkable and will not achieve what needs to be achieved, but once somebody has got a licence and they need to go for the veterinary checks, do you think there are enough qualified vets in the UK at the moment to be able to do these checks appropriately, and will people who keep animals under a licence be able to keep up with what they need to keep up with in order to hold that licence?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q Would you also be concerned about the transportation of primates around the country in order to find those vets?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q Thank you. I have two more questions on the importation of dogs, if that is okay. First, what provision do you need to see at Border Force level in order to implement these changes and ensure adequate checks?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q That is very helpful. I was interested in what you were saying about mutilation and rehoming in the UK. I should probably declare that I own a dog that has a docked tail, who I rehomed. Are you concerned about people who do not have any evidence that they genuinely rehomed an animal that already had a mutilation? Will they be caught out, not having been in any way involved in the mutilation, because they had rescued that animal? What are your views on that? Clearly, mutilation is awful and horrific, and we heard about declawing cats. What more could be done to raise awareness of why this is so negative? Could the Bill help do that?
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Three Members have caught my eye: Dr Luke Evans, Apsana Begum and James Daly. I am mindful of the time, so if anybody else wants to ask a question, could it be tight, and could questions be—well, as full as they need to be?
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Following up on Vicky’s point about future-proofing and imports, do you think there is a way we can future-proof against trends such as brachycephalic—short or flat-nosed—pets? One in five pets bought now has this big potential problem because of the trend for short-snouted dogs. In the legislation, we are talking about banning imports and setting standards. Is there a way to do that in legislation, or is it too difficult, practically, to protect and future-proof against trendsQ ?
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q In the current market, what is the drive from imports? We now have the chance to block or ban things in certain ways, to stave off a trend. How much does demand drive imports? If, for example, Italian greyhounds get more popular and become the next trend, how much do you see the outside market respond to that, so that we get those imports? How responsive is it? We seem to have a chance to drop that, if practicable.
Apsana Begum (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Do you think that the Bill contains a sufficiently robust definition of conservation?Q
Apsana Begum (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Paula, did you want to come in on this?
Apsana Begum (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Q On the different description of zoos, do you think something clearer is needed in the Bill?
Apsana Begum (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Q A final question: in Committee, our work will involve looking at the detail of the Bill, and it is said that the success of a Bill is often dependent on the financial commitments backing it up, to ensure that it is implemented and enforced. What is your assessment of the financial commitment required to ensure that the Bill is a success, given the experiences you have had in your organisation with the financial gap between enforcement, implementation, and the measures?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
I have a couple of questions about clauses 26 to 41 in part 2 of the Bill, specifically about dogs attacking or worrying livestock, and about criminal enforcement. I was a solicitor for many years, appearing in the courts. The vast majority of animal welfare proceedings were brought by the RSPCA, not by the police. The Bill talks about the police; it does not talk about private prosecutions or the role of organisations such as the RSPCA in enforcement. Do you foresee any role for the RSPCA or third-party agencies in this processQ ?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q I think there is a concern about how these matters are prosecuted. Paula, you touched on the potential for a dog to be kept in kennels for a long time. Clause 27(2), (3) and (4) appears to suggest that if a dog is seized by the police, the owner has seven days to claim the dog back, and if that does not happen, the dog can be given to another owner or potentially destroyed. I do not know whether that is your understanding. Clearly, we want to avoid at all costs healthy dogs being destroyed after seven days. Do you have any thoughts on how we address that part of the Bill?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q It is almost certain that somebody arrested for an offence like this would either be released under investigation or granted police bail. Is the position that you would like that until there is a charge, the dog must be kept with the owner, or do you feel that with release under investigation, it could be many months before a charge even comes? What should happen to the dog in those circumstances?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q I am talking about prior to charge—when somebody is arrested, interviewed and released on bail by the police, so there is no charge. What happens to the dog in those circumstances?
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Order. We have come to the end of the allocated time for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witnesses: David Bowles, the head of public affairs for the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals; and Paula Bowden, veterinary director for the Dogs Trust.
Examination of Witnesses
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
We will now hear oral evidence from Dr Alison Cronin MBE, director of Monkey World; Dr Simon Girling, chair of the Zoos Expert Committee, who will appear virtually; and Dr Jo Judge, chief executive of the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. For this session we have until 11.25 am. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Thank you all very much for coming to give evidence; it is great to meet you. I will start with Alison and focus on primates to begin with. I do not know whether you heard the evidence from David from the RSPCA in the previous session, but he took the view that it would be preferable to have a blanket ban on primate ownership. I know that in the past you have thought about that very carefully, and you took the view that a licensing system would be preferable. Do you want to tell us more about your views on that?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Thank you; that is very helpful. Do you have views on the proposed transition scheme? The RSPCA talked to us about grandfathering rights. Do you have a view on how we should best move from the current system to the new system?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Are you concerned that if there were to be an outright ban, you would have more pieces to pick up?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q You clearly have a wealth of experience in caring for primates. Do you feel we have tapped that experience to inform the new zoo standards? Has your voice been heard?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Thank you; that is very helpful. Jo, how do you feel about the arguments about a blanket ban versus a licensing system?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q I will move to Simon. Do you feel that the zoo standards have been drafted in consultation with the experts on your committee?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Thank you. Do you feel that it is a good move to absorb the conservation standards within the other zoo standards?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Great. Finally, are you aware that the consultation will start shortly and are you geared up for joining in with it?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q For what it is worth, I can give you the assurance that there will certainly be a consultation starting shortly. I believe you have been involved in some of the discussions about that.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Thank you for coming to give evidence to us today. I am still slightly confused about the group of people we are dealing with. I think we are all agreed that there is a group—of how many, we are not sure—who are keeping primates in entirely inappropriate conditions, and we want to clamp down on that.
However, I listened very closely to your evidence, and you both said, “a number of”. A number can be anything from one to quite a few. I am not at all clear how many people we are talking about who are, in your words, in a position to keep primates to zoo standards. I would really welcome a stab from both of you at how many people we are actually talking about. That goes back to my question to the RSPCA: who are they? They are clearly not the kind of people we are trying to clamp down on, who are keeping primates in totally inappropriate conditions. How many can do it properly?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
I was going to come on to that.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q No, it is fine. I think we are basically agreeing that the number is very small, which means that the other group, those who are not appropriate, is massively larger. The question then becomes: what happens to all those primates in this situation? Again, it is the transition question. What would your view be on that?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
I think there is evidence of some danger of unintended consequences here in some of this. If I can just move on and include Simon. I am slightly troubled by this spectrum of sanctuaries, small zoos and farm parks, exactly as you have just been saying. Will the measures in the Bill result in a lifting of animal welfare standards in general, taking into account that spectrum that may or may not be covered by the legislation?Q
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q What happens to those animals then?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
I am not sure whether I feel more sorry for the animals or the local authorities. I will leave it at that.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
We have just under 25 minutes. I will tell the Committee which Members have caught my eye so that we make the best use of time: I have Luke Evans first, then Olivia Blake, James Grundy and Dr Neil Hudson.
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q Thank you, Chair. I declare an interest: with the all-party parliamentary group on zoos and aquariums, I successfully supported the levelling-up fund bid of Twycross zoo, which is in my constituency.
To summarise, I am concerned about the public’s perception around welfare. It sounds natural and very obvious to say, “Let’s ban primates as pets.” What we are hearing from you guys is that, practically, that is very difficult because they are complex animals that may build relationships with a specific keeper. You cannot suddenly move them into another group very easily. Alison, you pulled a face there—that is what I am interested by, because I am coming at it as a lay person. If we choose a licensing system over an outright ban, how can the Government explain that to the public with the understanding and nuance in the message that you have just put forward?
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q We have heard from all three witnesses that this is going to drive up the standard of animal welfare. The danger of adding the conservation bit is that we are potentially a little blurred over what conservation looks like, and what standards are driven there. Could I ask you to comment on what the proposals will look like for conservation? Will it be a percentage of turnover? Is it the number of projects that you run elsewhere in the world? Is it the amount of expertise that you export? I guess that there is the danger that we need to be prescriptive, but being too prescriptive is problematic. [Interruption.]
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Depending on the noise levels, we will carry on.
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Human welfare is being looked after as well; that is good to see. Simon, I hope you got that question. The concern is that we need a good definition of conservation, but if it is too prescriptive we create a problem. What is your response to that as the ZEC?
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Order. Simon, that is a very comprehensive answer. I just do not want anyone to have missed what you said. I did not realise that we were going to have an ongoing commentary about fire and leaving the building. Did everybody hear that answer, or would we like to wait a little while until the noise has stopped and hear Dr Simon again? I feel that we should give you the courtesy of being able to hear your comprehensive answer. We will hold off, and then, if it is fine with everybody, can I add this time on to the end? [Interruption.] I cannot. Okay, I just wanted to check.
Good—silence. Dr Simon, the floor is yours. We were all glued to what you had to say; it sounded comprehensive.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
There you go—you heard that, Simon.
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q In the previous answer, which was interrupted, you mentioned getting the message out to the public. The public are more aware of the situation, both with welfare and conservation. Do you foresee a traffic-light system, like we have in health or education with Ofsted, to say that this is adequate or that is good? Is a green, amber and red of conservation and welfare being thought about going forward, so that the public can make a decision about what they are going to see and what is being done? I appreciate that the issue is important for those looking at the standards, but getting that message across to the wider public would also be very interesting.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
We have only 10 minutes left and I am hoping to include a further three Members.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q I have some quick-fire questions. I am intrigued, because breeding seems to be quite contentious, given some of the written evidence we have received and evidence we have heard today. I have some very technical questions. How effective are contraceptive methods—the Bill refers to “temporary contraceptive measures”—and how long is average gestation for a primate?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q How effective are the contraceptive methods?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Probably not 100% then, based on humans?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q One contention is the concern about licensing individuals and the risk. You mentioned that one benefit is for breeding programmes, but others, including the British Veterinary Association, which provided written evidence, seem quite concerned about the risk in allowing that to continue. Do you think there is an issue around that? Finally, do you feel that the length of time for the licence, and how the Bill does not at the moment require an annual check with a vet—
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
With the local authority, but not with a vet.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Every two years, not annually.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
That is every two years, but for vets—hang on; let me find the right bit of the Bill.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q So it is not annual. Would you prefer it to be annual? Is six years too long?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q Is six years too long for a licence to be granted?
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
Previous witnesses this morning suggested that putting the burden of inspection on local authorities might create too great a burden. The example used was that perhaps a chap looking at the tandoori place in the morning would be inspecting this in the afternoon.
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
Q However, I think you suggested that the new legislation would narrow the field of legitimate keepers to the point where there would be a very small number nationwide—perhaps 100 to 150. Which view do you subscribe to: will local authorities face too great a burden, or will the number be so small that it is a manageable burden? I realise that those things are not mutually exclusive.
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
Q That is incredibly helpful, thank you. As a follow-up, I wonder whether you could both reiterate whether you feel that private keepers, when properly regulated, can provide the same standard of welfare as a small zoo. I think you have been pretty clear on that, but I would like to reiterate that point.
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
Q So it is your view that the problem we are facing is people basically keeping monkeys in bird cages—not the good private keepers who maintain a high standard of welfare?
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Order. We have come to the end of the time allocated for the Committee to ask questions and, indeed, for this morning’s sittings. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee: a big thank you to Dr Alison Cronin MBE, director of Monkey World; to Dr Simon Girling, chair of the Zoos Expert Committee; and to Dr Jo Judge, chief executive of the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums. The Committee will meet again at two o’clock this afternoon in the Boothroyd room to continue taking oral evidence.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
This afternoon, we will hear first from Minette Batters, President of the National Farmers Union, who will appear virtually; Peter Stevenson, chief policy adviser for Compassion in World Farming, who will also appear virtually; and Rob Taylor from the National Police Chiefs’ Council’s livestock priority delivery group. We have until 3 pm. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q52 Thank you very much for coming to give evidence to us. Minette, may I start with your views, and those of your members, on the live export provisions generally?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q But in terms of the actual live export provisions, your members can live with them as they are. You have no specific comments to make.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Yes, the Bill refers to the British Isles. What is your view, and your experiences and those of your members, on the problem with livestock worrying, particularly over the last year and a half or so, when we have seen a lot of pandemic puppies?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Would you have exemptions for a farmer’s dog or a sheep dog?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q You will have seen that the Bill expands the definition of “livestock.” Is that something you feel strongly about?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Peter, I know you have campaigned for many years on live exports. What are your views on that part of the Bill?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Rob, do you support the measures in the Bill on livestock worrying—or attacking, as Minette would remind us we should call it?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q On that last point, do you feel the enhanced police powers in the Bill will help prosecute such offences?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Can I end by asking: lead or no lead, in your view?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Thank you.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Good afternoon to our witnesses. Minette, could I start with you? On livestock attacks, do you think that the maximum fine of £1,000 is sufficientQ ?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I suspect that this is a slightly leading question, but do you think there is sufficient compensation for farmers whose livestock have been attacked?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q On the export of livestock, we all welcome the situation we are now in, with far fewer animals, and welcome the legislation. Is that really the issue around the transport of livestock? Some of the written evidence suggests that the real issue is journey times in general.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Thank you. Peter, I think everyone will congratulate you and your organisation on all the campaigning you have done over the years. I ask you the same question: what are the issues around animal welfare and the transport of animals?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q In your written evidence you and others raised the vexed question of a potential Northern Ireland loophole. Without re-rehearsing the entire complicated issue around the Northern Ireland protocol, could you say a little about your concerns as they relate to this issue?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I have one final question on poultry, which was raised in your written evidence and the evidence of others. Could you say a little about that?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q This is a general question for Rob. Throughout the Bill—and this goes beyond this Bill—the enforcement issues seem to be difficult. We pass laws, but do not really check whether they are enforced. In particular, we do not really check whether those we are asking to enforce—the police, the border agency or the local authority—have the resources to do it. That is why I am really glad that you are here. Would you tell us a bit about your view on that, and whether the Bill will work, in the sense that the people who are going to enforce it have the resources to do it?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q As you would imagine, the Opposition are often pleased about what happens in Wales, but it is not the same everywhere in the country. I do not know whether you are in a position to comment on the rest of the country. In addition, I was struck by the evidence from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals about the potential transfer of prosecution powers from it to police and local authorities. Given the extraordinary pressure on police and local authorities, I find that quite troubling. Again, I would look to you for guidance on whether we should be troubled and whether we should worry that the Bill will not lead to the outcomes that we hope for.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
The next two Members who wish to speak are James Daly, followed by Ben Lake.
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Thank you very much, Ms McVey. Can I ask some questions about the specifics of the Bill—clause 27 onwards in part 2 —regarding the seizure and retention of dogs? Can you give me your views on that? Clause 27(1) says that ifQ
“a constable has reasonable grounds to believe that the dog has attacked or worried livestock on agricultural land or a road or a path…The constable may seize the dog”.
There is some more wording, but what is clear from subsection (3) is that the owner of the dog in those circumstances has seven days to reclaim it. There is a suggestion that at the end of that period, if it is not reclaimed one of the options open to the police is the destruction of that dog. Is that your understanding of the position?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
And the police will be in a position to find a home within seven days for dogs?Q
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q There is a potential contradiction in the Bill regarding the situation that I have just read out, where a constable has reasonable grounds to believe that a criminal offence has taken place, and the dog can be collected after seven days. Then we go on to clause 27(8), which says:
“The constable may seize the dog and detain it—
(a) until an investigation has been carried out into whether an offence under section 26 has been committed by reason of the dog attacking or worrying livestock, or
(b) if proceedings are brought in respect of such an offence, until those proceedings have been determined or withdrawn.”
Effectively, that means that we have one situation where there is seven days and another situation under clause 27(8) where the dog can be kept until the end of criminal proceedings. What is the difference between the two? Is it that under clause 27(8) the person has been charged with the offence and the dog will then be kept potentially on an indefinite basis, compared with the seven days I just referred to?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q Okay. You can see the difference between what constitutes a decision for seven days and what constitutes a decision for what would potentially be a very lengthy period of time. I have to go on. I am from a criminal law background and have dealt with many cases in this area. Realistically, where we are now, you could have a case that was disputed and could go on for over 12 months. You would accept that?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q So what happens to the dog for that length of time?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q How would we as a Committee be confident that the dog’s welfare needs would be met after such a long time in kennels?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q A witness who gave evidence this morning said that there are examples from Scotland of dogs being kept for three or four years.
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q My final question is on the power of disqualification, which I assume you fully understand. People obviously can have more than one dog, so there may be a situation where one dog is responsible for an act that has led to the owner being convicted of a criminal offence. A disqualification order would suggest that other dogs in the home can then be seized, even though they have not been responsible for any potential criminal behaviour. Is that correct?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q I understand that, and I appreciate the point you are making. Clause 33(4) says:
“Any dog taken into possession in pursuance of an order under subsection (1) or (2)”—
which is the disqualification order—
“that is not owned by the person subject to the disqualification order is to be dealt with in such manner as an appropriate court may order.”
That covers a number of different circumstances. I am concerned that dogs that have not acted in an inappropriate manner, shall we say, are potentially going to be disposed of and destroyed. That seems remarkably unfair.
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q I have one final brief question. We clearly do not want to be in a situation where, if a disqualification order is made, the person convicted of a criminal offence is given responsibility for rehoming a dog. That seems ridiculous, but that is what you are suggesting would happen.
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q So you do not see it as the responsibility of the police or somebody else to rehome a dog in an appropriate way when it has been taken, to ensure that its welfare is maintained?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q There is no dispute regarding disqualification from future purchase. What I am concerned about is the dog that is already under the ownership of a person and what happens to that dog, which has done nothing wrong whatsoever.
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Thank you.
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
I also want to ask Mr Taylor a few questions, sticking to part 2 of the Bill, specifically clause 39, on the meaning of “worrying livestock”. We heard in evidence this morning from both the Blue Cross and the RSPCA that there are some concerns that the definition of a dog “at large” is far too broad and that it could have unintended consequences. I am interested to know whether you share any concerns about clause 39(3)(b), which elaborates that a dog is “at large” unless it isQ
“within sight of a person and the person—
(i) remains aware of the dog’s actions, and
(ii) has reason to be confident that the dog will return to the person reliably and promptly on the person’s command.”
Do you think that this may have unintended consequences for your ability to enforce to the law?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q On enforcement, there may not be any merit, but do you think that there is any benefit, in terms of public awareness and understanding of owners’ responsibilities, in limiting the definition of “at large” to a dog that is on a lead of a particular length?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q Minette, other witnesses this morning suggested that there is an omission from the Bill, in that there are no provisions to offer compensation to livestock owners when they have suffered a dog attack in this way. I am interested in whether the National Farmers Union has a position on that and whether it would like to see such clauses inserted into the Bill.
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
I have a question about the list of exempted dogs in clause 39(2)(b). Do you have a view on whether that list of dogs might be too broad given that it includesQ
“a working gun dog or a pack of hounds”,
and given their use in the countryside? Rob or Minette?
Cherilyn Mackrory (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Welcome, everyone. Following on, the working gun dog definition might be interesting to look at because we have working gun dogs, but they do not work—although they might go on the checkout in Asda occasionally on a Saturday morning. I wonder whether we need to look at that definition, because if somebody is walking their dog, it goes after a sheep, and the dog happens to be one of those breeds but not a working dog, there is a grey area there. Do you have an opinion on that?Q
Cherilyn Mackrory (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q They do that even if they are not supposed to. This morning, the Dogs Trust said the majority of livestock worrying is from dogs that have escaped from a garden. We are talking a lot about on lead/off lead. That is very important, and we must get it right. In your experience, are you seeing that the vast majority of attacks come from dogs that have escaped from properties? Minette, is that what your members are seeing as well?
Cherilyn Mackrory (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q Thank you. Minette, is that what you are hearing from your members as well?
Cherilyn Mackrory (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q There is a slight grey area because it is either that an animal has escaped from a property where the owner probably does not even know it has gone, or someone is walking in the countryside, the dog bolts and they have not got it under control. Those are two very different scenarios.
Cherilyn Mackrory (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q That is an interesting point. A few years ago it was huskies; what seems to be the dominant breed at the moment? Is there a dominant breed?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Thank you to our witnesses for appearing before us. Peter, are you confident and encouraged that this legislation will actively improve the welfare of animals that are transported? I am specifically thinking of livestock and horses. Are there other things that we need to be doing in parallel to this, such as bolstering and supporting the abattoir network to reduce the distances that animals need to be transported? Are you encouraged that the legislation will improve welfareQ ?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Thank you, that is very helpful. May I pass that over to Minette? I am sure you would be supportive of animals being farm-reared and entering the food supply chain locally. That will reduce travelling times and improve animal welfare. Do you think that for your members there is enough clarity in the Bill that farm animals can still be moved for breeding purposes? We have been fairly explicit in the Bill that it is for fattening and slaughter, but is there enough clarity that other movements would be permissible for breeding stock?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q It was about movement of animals for breeding purposes—high-level breeding animals that still need to be moved around in the farming world. Is there enough clarity in the Bill? It is clear for fattening and slaughter, but it is important that animals are still able to be moved for breeding purposes. The caveat is that we do not want people exploiting that as a loophole.
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
I want to refer back to something Minette said earlier, and I apologise if I misunderstood it. With regard to dog attacks on sheep, I think you said that once a dog has become a sheep killer, it will remain a sheep killer for life. Is that what you said? I understand that is a commonly held view among the farming fraternity.Q
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
Q Once a dog has breached that point of no return—once it has become a sheep killer—I take it from what you have just said that you believe it is virtually impossible for that dog to be safely rehomed because of the danger that, unless it is under very close supervision from that point onwards, it would remain a sheep killer and would attack livestock again.
James Grundy (Conservative, Leigh)
Thank you for the clarification, which I think was helpful for the Committee.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Are there any further questions from Members? In that case, I thank our witnesses: Minette Batters, President of the National Farmers Union; Peter Stevenson, chief policy adviser for Compassion in World Farming; and Rob Taylor from the National Police Chiefs’ Council’s livestock priority delivery group. Thank you very much indeed.
Examination of Witness
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
We will now hear from Rob Quest, the chairman of the Canine and Feline Sector Group, who is appearing virtually. We have until 3.30 pm for this session. Could the witness please introduce himself?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Hello, Rob. Thank you for giving evidence to us. I have only a few questions for you. You will have heard some of the debate about livestock worrying. Are you in the lead or no-lead camp?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q We heard evidence from Rob Taylor that there were concerns with dogs being on a lead around cattle in particular, because of the risk to the human with the dog of being attacked. Would that tally with your experience?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Moving on to the pet travel rules, where do you stand on putting in an exemption to include rescue dogs?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Can you give us any examples from your experience?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon. You may well have heard some of the evidence given by previous witnesses, but to return to the importation of dogs and cats in a vehicle, what is your view on the number—five or three?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I put this question to one of our earlier witnesses. There are pretty strong measures in the Bill to deal with puppy and dog smuggling, but there is a view that some of those who are driven by profit might begin to look at cats as well. There is some evidence to suggest that, particularly with some breeds, money has been extorted through that process. Does the Bill need to be strengthened in terms of cats? I am particularly thinking of such things as declawing.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q You may well have heard the discussion earlier about so-called fashion-based mutilations. Does the Bill do enough to tackle those?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q From your experience, how confident can we be that the various authorities charged with enforcement have the resources, training, numbers and skills to do what we expect them to?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Should there be visual checks?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q To what extent should the responsibility lie with the carrier?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Indeed. Would you like to say a little more about what those issues might be?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Thank you very much; that is very helpful.
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q Hi Rob. I have just looked on your organisation’s website. Your organisation advises the Government on important dog and cat health and welfare issues and standards. Is that correct?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q If the state is detaining an animal in kennels, for whatever reason, for a lengthy period of time—potentially up to 12 months, or longer—would you advise the Government or have any views as to the welfare issues for that animal, which will almost exclusively be a dog, in respect of the legislation?
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Q But where there is no other option, if a dog is detained by the police or any authority, perhaps for very good reason, are there any facilities other than kennels where it can be looked after for a lengthy period of time? I am asking in complete ignorance, so please forgive me.
James Daly (Conservative, Bury North)
Thank you very much.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Rob, I noted your comment that, sadly, you have noticed an increasing number of dogs with cropped ears coming through Heathrow, which really rams home the importance of visual checks. The legislation aims to reduce the movement of animals that have been mutilated, so I wanted to ask if you have seen a similar increase in the number of cats coming in with their claws removed. That will be much harder to detect visually than a Dobermann with cropped ears. Have you picked up on that at all? We need to ensure that cats that have been mutilated are covered by the legislation as well.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Your evidence, and the evidence we heard from Dogs Trust this morning, has really reinforced that this is good legislation but it needs an effective effector arm, if you like, to monitor and enforce it. With border checks and adequate resources for that, we will be able to try to stop people moving animals in those situations.
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
We have talked a lot today about cats and dogs, but the legislation also covers ferrets. I wonder if there are any animals that have been missed, or what you see with regard to ferrets in particular. I understand the reasoning behind it, but is there any comment there? The Committee has not heard anything about that todayQ .
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q That is really helpful for the Committee to know. Are there any other animals that you feel should be covered by the Bill?
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
As there are no further questions, I thank Rob Quest, chairman of the Canine and Feline Sector Group.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
We will now hear from Mike Webb, head of policy and public affairs at Battersea Dogs and Cats Home. We have until 4 o’clock for this session. Will the witness please introduce himself?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Thank you, Mike, for coming to give evidence. We have been touching on the same issues repeatedly. You have probably been following our proceedings, so without a great preamble can I go straight to the issues that concern us? On pet imports and pet travel, would you be in the five animals per vehicle camp or the three animals per vehicle camp?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q I think the concern today has centred on dog owners travelling together legitimately—a person with two dogs travelling with another person with two dogs.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Do you agree that there should be no exemption for rescue dogs?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Finally, can you give us your views on whether cats should be included in any conversations about theft? What sort of values are you seeing for cats that are stolen at the moment?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I will take my lead from the Minister and ask the lead question: on livestock attacks, where do you stand on leads?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q That was a brilliant politician’s answer, if I may say, because I am not entirely sure where you are on leads after that. Never mind; I get the drift. I will move on to the import issues, some of which you have already talked about. I would like to explore two areas. The first is the difficult issue, throughout all the legislation, of where dogs are confined to kennels and the unintended consequences of being tough in other areas. What is Battersea’s view on how we might go forward on that?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
As ever, I think that we are good at identifying problems, but solutions are sometimes more difficult.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Thank you; that is helpful. I want to explore a slightly different area from the ones that we have explored with other witnesses so far. Do you have any potential solutions for the vexed issues with microchipping, such as the multiplicity of data- bases and the problems that creates for vets in some circumstances?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Thank you; that is very helpful.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
Are there any further questions?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q I was interested in the statistics you gave on the number of animals coming in. I think you talked about cats, so I guess you would have a feel for the number of dogs being imported as well. Some of them, sadly, end up going into rehoming shelters, such as your charity, and homes and so on. For your charity and partners, has there been any concomitant increase in the number of animals coming in with health issues? I am thinking of exotic diseases to the UK. Diseases such as leishmaniasis and canine brucellosis have health implications for the animals coming in as well as those already in this country and, importantly, in some disease situations for people.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q That is helpful. Chair, I will pursue the line of questioning about the specifics of some of the diseases with the president of the British Veterinary Association, Justine Shotton, when she is with us. Measures could be brought in through legislation, be it primary or secondary, to improve checks on animals prior to entry, ensuring that they have health checks, and potentially preventative health treatments, before they arrive. In your view, as a key stakeholder, would that help the population of animals in this country and then, indirectly, people?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q I think that is right, because a lot of people will be trying, with good intentions, to rehome an animal and will maybe import an animal, but they will not know whether the animal is harbouring a very serious disease, because no checks have been done. There is that factor of the unknown.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Following up on something we heard from a previous witness, are you seeing an increase over the last 12 to 18 months of animals coming in that have potentially had mutilations, such as cropped ears?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Can you put a figure on that at all?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Thank you. I think you make a very pertinent point that sometimes we are lagging behind the trends. In popular culture there is a subliminal promotion of these animals as being normal. They are in celebrity culture as well. I think of Pixar’s film “Up”, which has Dobermans with cropped ears. People look at that and think that is normal. Really, there is a role for all of us to call that out and say that it is not normal. The Bill will help in saying that if procedures are illegal in this country, you cannot bring in dogs or cats that have had those procedures from elsewhere. We all have a role to play in that.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Thank you.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
If there are no further questions from Members, I will thank the witness, Mike Webb, head of policy and public affairs a Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, on behalf of the Committee. Thank you very much. Our next session will be at 3.45 pm.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
We will now hear from Justine Shotton, president of the British Veterinary Association, who will appear virtually. We have until 4.30 pm. Could the witness please introduce herself for the record?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Hello, Justine. Thank you very much for giving evidence to us. Do you support the livestock worrying provisions in the Bill, and specifically the expansion of the definition of livestock?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Lovely. I will move straight on, then. Do you also approve of the export ban for fattening and slaughter, and are you happy with that area of the Bill?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Absolutely. Have you been fully sighted on the consultation on animal transport generally?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Great. A lot of that is not dealt with in the Bill, which deals specifically with live exports, but is dealt with elsewhere.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q Brilliant. Thank you. You might have heard some of the discussion in Committee today about whether reducing the number of pets that can travel per vehicle from five to three is a good thing. Where do you stand on that?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Q So you would be more happy with three per vehicle than with five.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
We have seen your evidence, and of course, my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border asks questions about that frequently. Thank you; that is all from me.
Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)
I am sure he will ask some more, Minister. We now go to the hon. Member for Cambridge.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon. Thank you for giving us your time and expertise. I will run through things in the order that the Bill covers them, starting with primates. In your written evidence, you say you are concerned about a number of loopholes that you think might make the Bill ineffective. What should we do to strengthen it?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I think what I took from that is that you would prefer a ban.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Moving on to attacks on livestock, we have basically reduced this down to a question of whether you are in favour of leads. Do you think dogs should be on a lead?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q On export for slaughter, a lot of this ground has been covered by other witnesses, but I noticed that in your written evidence, you talked about certified training for farmers, drivers and hauliers. What would that look like?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Thank you. On the import of dogs and cats, you have already made the point about pre-import testing. Again, how would that work in practice? What are the implications?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q In discussions with previous witnesses, the point has begun to be made that the provisions for dogs should probably be extended to cats. Is that your view, too?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Finally, on zoos there is a specific ask to change the term “specialist” to “expert”. Could you explain the thinking behind that?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
That is very helpful. Thank you very much.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q The Minister will be relieved to hear that Justine has answered many of my questions already. To reiterate a couple of them, you are keen for health checks to be made on animals prior to entry, covering diseases such as brucellosis and leishmaniasis. I am interested in your comments about reintroducing mandatory tick and tapeworm treatments for cats. Can you give the Committee your perspective on why it is important that we do that quickly?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Certainly, there are reports of dogs in this country picking up exotic tick-borne diseases when they have never been out of this country. They have picked up a tick in this country, obviously from a dog that has come into Essex or somewhere. The Government can act on that pretty quickly, can they not?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Good. I am going to duck around the species a little bit, Chair, with your forgiveness. I want to go back to primates. Justine, you are a zoo vet. I take your point about being a specialist, as opposed to having expertise, but can you give the Committee some perspective on the number of vets who have the relevant experience or expertise to treat, diagnose and look after primates in this country? Are they spread around the country geographically, or are they concentrated next to zoos or in zoos? Can you give us any perspective on that?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q You have come on to my follow-up question. If licensing came in, would there be enough vets able to get involved in that, and to deliver the health and welfare monitoring of those animals?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Thank you; that is helpful. There has been a lot of debate about a ban versus licensing. Can you give us your perspective? We are still trying to get to the bottom of how many people in this country would be looking after a primate in zoo-type conditions. How many people are there? Is there really a reason to be keeping a primate in that situation outside zoo premises?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q So the numbers could be low, but there could potentially be people who are keeping primates, not as pets, and who are affiliated with zoos and are part of conservation programmes. You feel that from the veterinary profession’s viewpoint, there is a small number of people whom that would work for, and you are comfortable with that.
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Q Finally, do you think the Bill could be strengthened if we were a bit clearer in some of the definitions and the criteria? I am thinking of things such as putting six months in the Bill as the minimum age at which animals can be brought into the country, and specifying the need for health checks, rabies titre tests and so on before animals come in. Also, potentially, there could be a definition of what we mean by a heavily pregnant pet. We heard Paula from the Dogs Trust say in evidence that it is currently illegal to bring in an animal in the last 10% of gestation, but that it would be sensible use some other definition—say, the last 30% to 50% of gestation. Do you think the Bill would be strengthened if we were clearer, and that that would perhaps tighten up some loopholes?
Neil Hudson (Conservative, Penrith and The Border)
Thank you. Hopefully the Minister and the Government can help us through this process. It is really helpful for us to hear that your view is that this important stuff needs to be done in either primary or secondary legislation, but on some of these issues, such as the health status of animals, it needs to be done quickly, so we can stop diseases coming in and stop cruel practices. Hopefully the Government can work with everyone on that.
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q I point out what I said earlier about my interest in zoos. On zoos, Justine, your report mentions the “Secretary of State’s Standards of Modern Zoo Practice”. What is your understanding of that, and your concerns about it?
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q That is really helpful to look at the welfare side. I do not know if your organisation has a position on conservation because that has been brought in together with the zoo aspect. Do you have any comments on that?
Luke Evans (Conservative, Bosworth)
Q How do you think things are set up to provide the communication, both to you as practising veterinarians and to the public about the standards of welfare?
Olivia Blake (Labour, Sheffield, Hallam)
Q I want to pick up on some of the breeding issues in primates. What is your view on whether the licensing scheme would leave scope for inappropriate breeding if there was not enough oversight? Do you think the annual health check from a veterinary surgeon would help combat that? I was interested to see your addition of that in your written evidence.