Subsidy Control Bill

Public Bill Committee, 4 November 2021.

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

Before we start, may I remind hon. Members about social distancing and mask wearing where appropriate, please? We will now continue line-by-line consideration of the Bill. The selection list for today’s sitting is available in the Committee Room and shows how the selected amendments have been grouped together for debate. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or a similar issue.

Clause 52 - Mandatory referral to CMA

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I beg to move amendment 28, in clause 52, page 28, line 10, at end insert—

“(c) where the granting authority for a subsidy scheme is the Government department responsible for the operation of the subsidy control regime, or

(d) where the granting authority for a subsidy is the Government department responsible for the operation of the subsidy control regime and the subsidy value is over £2 million.”

This amendment makes provision for situations for mandatory referrals in cases where the department responsible for the operation of the subsidy control regime is a granter of subsidies or subsidy schemes.

Thank you for chairing the Committee today, Chair; we very much appreciate it. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole is delighted to see me here. He made very clear this morning that he was worried that the debate might be truncated without my presence. I am here to oblige by standing up and making my first speech of the day.

The amendment is about mandatory referrals to the Competition and Markets Authority. Clause 52 specifically focuses on those mandatory referrals and the criteria under which a subsidy would mandatorily be referred and therefore given an additional level of scrutiny. The mandatory referral considerations in subsection (1) of the clause say that a public authority must request a report from the CMA if it is giving a subsidy or a subsidy scheme “of particular interest” or if it is

“directed to do so by the Secretary of State”.

It goes on to say in subsection (3) that the Secretary of State may

“specify further information that must be included in a request”,

and

“make provision as to the form of a request.”

That is all well and good, but it seems to me that every single criterion for mandatory referral to the CMA relies on the decisions being made by the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will decide what is a subsidy or subsidy scheme of particular interest and what class it falls into. That is a decision that will be made, but those details are not in the Bill.

If a subsidy is only mandatorily referred if it is of particular interest, which is defined by the Secretary of State, or if the Secretary of State chooses to refer it, there is a gap in terms of a conflict of interest, where the subsidy may be given by the Secretary of State’s Department and, given the limited criteria we have for interested parties, for example, which have not yet been expanded on—we will discuss them later on in the Bill—it would make sense for large grants made by the Secretary of State’s Department to mandatorily be referred to the CMA for a report. That would not cause a huge amount of additional work for the CMA, but it will provide an additional check and balance to the system. We do not want the Government marking their own homework on that; we would rather there was an additional level of scrutiny here.

Amendment 28 says that

“where the granting authority for a subsidy scheme is the Government department responsible for the operation of the subsidy control regime, or”—

that should be “and”, not “or”—

“where the granting authority for a subsidy is the Government department responsible for the operation of the subsidy control regime and the subsidy value is over £2 million.”

Once again, I do not feel I am being unreasonable. I am not asking for a mandatory referral every time. Sorry—I just reread the amendment, and it is right, it should be “or”. It is about a subsidy scheme that is made by the Secretary of State’s Department, so scrutinising all the subsidy schemes made by the Secretary of State’s Department, or the scrutiny of an individual subsidy where that is more than £2 million. I apologise to the Clerks for doubting them; this is how I intended the amendment to be.

This is not an unreasonable ask, but it is an extra check and balance, ensuring that the Government are appropriately scrutinised and that there is a look at all those subsidies. It is just an additional look; it will not delay the granting of the subsidy or mean that it will take longer. The subsidy will still be able to be granted fairly quickly and subsidy schemes will be able to be set up fairly quickly. However, it means that the CMA will look at those with an inherent conflict of interest because the Secretary of State’s Department is granting or setting up the subsidy scheme.

Later in the clause is a provision for the Secretary of State to make changes by regulations, but that specifically relates to the form of the request and the further information that may be included in the request. It does not relate to further criteria as to which public authorities must request a report from the CMA. If there were such a provision, I would push for the Secretary of State to make regulations and ensure that the criteria were widened. As that has not been included in the clause, I feel that I have to move the amendment.

If the Minister could give me some level of comfort, that would be very helpful. I think that that check and balance needs to be there to get rid of the inherent conflict of interest.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes. I thank the hon. Member for Aberdeen North for her remarks. She raises a number of important and pertinent issues around scrutiny, in particular about subsidies introduced by the Secretary of State.

The clause deals with the mandatory pre-award referrals to the CMA. It outlines that:

“A public authority must request a report from the CMA…before giving a subsidy, or making a subsidy scheme, of particular interest, or…where directed to do so by the Secretary of State”.

We have highlighted our concerns about the definitions of subsidies “of particular interest”. It is a glaring gap in our debates on the detail of the legislation. We think that the definition should be included in primary legislation, and I hope the Minister has listened to our concerns. I am sure that the issue will come back at future stages and, at the very least, our expectation will be that the definition is published very soon after the Bill receives Royal Assent. Things that we could be dealing with now should not end up delaying the ability to make decisions and implement the regime.

Although we are concerned about the definition, we support the overall importance of the measures outlined in the clause and the function of mandatory referral to the CMA, in the interests of checking compliance with the principles, bringing assurance on value for money and confirming that there will be no distortion or harm to the economy.

On amendment 28, the hon. Member for Aberdeen North makes an important continuing reference to the Government marking their own homework. Although we recognise the intention and some of the arguments behind the amendment, we do not think that producing a report on a subsidy every time one is given by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy—as a sort of blunt tool—would necessarily be the most effective use of the CMA’s time.

Rather, we have argued very strongly for all subsidies, regardless of whether they are below a particular amount or given to a certain recipient, to be posted on the database to ensure sufficient transparency. We will also seek to ensure that there are greater rights on call-in powers or that the CMA can investigate itself, if it deems that there a reason to do so. We think that any assurances, which are, in part, the intention behind the amendment, could be better delivered through the Bill in other ways. On that basis, we will abstain on amendment 28. We support clause 52 standing part of the Bill.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. Before I begin, I would like to make a general point about today’s debate and address a question raised during our discussions on Tuesday. Throughout the discussion of clauses in part 4 of the Bill, Members will hear me refer to the subsidy advice unit, which will be a new sub unit of the Competition and Markets Authority established by this Bill. Technically speaking, the provisions in part 4 confer various responsibilities on the CMA, and it is for the CMA to decide which of its responsibilities it will delegate to the SAU. The mechanics of that process will be discussed later when the Committee considers clause 67. While the decision on how to organise its work rests with the CMA, in practice it is likely that most if not all of the responsibilities under part 4 will be delegated to the SAU. Therefore, for consistency and ease, I will be referring to the SAU throughout these debates.

Clause 52 sets out that two categories of subsidy and scheme will be subject to referral to the CMA. The first is subsidies and schemes of particular interest, which we discussed in the context of clause 11 on Thursday 28 October, and the second is the subsidies and schemes that are referred by the Secretary of State under the provisions that we will shortly discuss under clause 55. Amendment 28, as we have heard, would add to that list of subsidies subject to mandatory referrals, requiring the Department responsible for the subsidy control regime to refer individual subsidies above £2 million and all subsidy schemes to the SAU. In practice, the BESI, my Department, is the Department with responsibility for subsidy control. I can reassure hon. Members that BEIS takes its subsidy control commitments very seriously. BEIS subsidies, like those of all other public authorities in the UK, will be subject to the “subsidies of particular interest” regime. There is no special treatment in this regime for my Department: indeed, BEIS can already ask advice of the CMA where necessary, using the powers in the Enterprise Act 2002.

The Bill establishes the two categories that we have talked about: subsidies and subsidy schemes of interest, which can be voluntarily referred to the SAU, and subsidies and schemes of particular interest, which must be referred to the SAU. The Government will set out in regulations definitions for both of those categories, and those regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, so there will be opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny of them. Those definitions will capture subsidies that are more likely to give rise to trade disputes, as well as subsidies that are more likely to distort UK competition and investment. BEIS subsidies and subsidy schemes will be subject to the same requirements and procedures as all other subsidies. I assure hon. Members that my Department really will not get any special treatment on this issue.

However, routinely requiring BEIS to be referred to the SAU when it offers subsidies and subsidy schemes would be a disproportionate approach to managing the risk of those highly distortive subsidies. It is important for the SAU to focus its attention and casework on genuinely distortive subsidies, not to focus unduly on subsidies and schemes made by BEIS in particular. The Government fully agree that subsidies and schemes of particular interest merit a proportionately higher level of scrutiny than other less distortive subsidies and subsidy schemes, but those subsidies are, in principle, better captured through a robust and well-evidenced set of thresholds and criteria. Those criteria will be set out in regulations defining the subsidies and schemes of particular interest, rather than placing a discrete requirement on a single public authority on the face of the Bill.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

Specifically regarding the process, and what might happen in terms of subsidies of interest and subsidies of particular interest, does the Minister agree that this is going to be a movable feast? The regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, but things may change, and therefore there will need to be a change to the interests and particular interests. I am just asking the Minister to give me comfort that if the Government agree there is a particular issue with something, and it needs to be added to the group of “interest” or of “particular interest”, it will be added.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Yes, I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. Those schemes will be set out rigidly and subject to the affirmative procedure, so we can have parliamentary scrutiny, but none the less—as she rightly says—we need to retain flexibility, which is exactly why those definitions are in regulations in the first place, rather than on the face of the Bill. Of course, we look to provide as much parliamentary scrutiny of those regulations as possible. I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw her amendment.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I will not press this amendment to a vote at this stage, but I might bring it back at a later stage. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

The clause requires that public authorities refer certain subsidies and subsidy schemes to the subsidy advice unit before they are given or made. Two types of subsidies or schemes must be referred: those defined as being of particular interest in clause 11 and those that are called in by the Secretary of State under clause 55.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

We support clause 52. I am not concerned about the detail of the clause, but how it will be effective as part of the regime. This comes back to why the rules around what can be referred under the definition of a subsidy of particular interest and who has what call-in powers will be a fundamental question to come back to. It would be a shame to have a good clause and not use it to best effect to support the best outcomes of the regime.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I agree with the hon. Lady. My concern, which I mentioned briefly when talking about the amendment, is that subsection (1) is not flexible enough. It mentions particular interests and

“where directed to do so by the Secretary of State”,

but I would prefer to see an additional category that says, “other reasons”, with regulation to follow if that is what the Minister suggests. There are probably more reasons why things could be referred mandatorily to the CMA without having to go through the affirmative process of changing the particular interest subsidy section in clause 11. There could have been a little more flexibility in that clause, and it would be useful if the Minister agreed to think about that.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I am always happy to think about flexibility.

Clause 53 - CMA reporting period for mandatory referral

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 53 sets out the timeframe within which the subsidy advice unit must publish its report on a subsidy or subsidy scheme once a mandatory referral has been made to it by a public authority. The subsidy advice unit has an initial five-day working period in which to tell the public authority whether it has provided the information required by clause 52. It then generally has 30 working days in which to publish a report on the subsidy or subsidy scheme. That is the reporting period.

There are a couple of situations where it might be extended on a case-by-case period, whether by mutual agreement with the SAU and the public authority or directed by the Secretary of State following a request made by the SAU. Extensions are intended to be used sparingly—for example, when the SAU has been asked to report on a particularly complex case.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

It is a pleasure to respond to the Minister’s comments. The clause sets out the CMA’s reporting period for mandatory referrals. It specifies that the CMA has 30 working days to issue a report, unless the reporting period is extended under subsections (4) or (6). There is also the important five-day period for the CMA to respond to a request for a referral.

Labour Members recognise the importance of a relatively quick reporting period to give public authorities the confidence they need when granting subsidies under what is designed to be a quicker and easier system. However, it should not be without safeguards and, sometimes, extra safeguards, bearing in mind that pre-notification brings checks earlier in the process. We have to continue to be very mindful of that. We want subsidies that are given for the right reasons to be granted, without an extra onerous delay from the reporting taking too long, so it is important that some targets and mandatory deadlines are in the legislation.

We are concerned about whether the CMA will have the necessary capacity to produce the initial response within five days, and then the report within the 30 working-day period. Can the Minister offer reassurances about how the Government will monitor, review and work with the CMA on whether it has the capacity? There may be a spurt of requests, particularly perhaps earlier on in the process, as public authorities are starting to feel their way through it. They may even request, for good reason, voluntary referrals. What process is he putting in place to ensure that the CMA has the necessary resource to carry out its reporting adequately and in a timely manner?

We want that reporting to be to the required standard. Corners should not be cut in order to meet a deadline. We need the work to be done effectively and with the confidence of all interested parties and the public. We would also like clarity on what exactly would constitute an exceptional circumstance to allow the Secretary of State to extend the reporting period. Will the Minister provide further clarity on what might fit that definition? Despite those concerns—there may need to be some tightening up later—the clause lays out the necessity of the measures for the effectiveness of the regime. We will therefore agree that it stand part.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

The purpose of the referral process is not for the subsidy advice unit to duplicate the public authority’s assessment of whether the subsidy complies with the subsidy control requirements. The SAU provides the evaluation of the assessment based on the information that is already provided by the public authority, so it is not duplicating work. We therefore believe that 30 working days is reasonable, given that specific role, but for exceptional or complex cases where more time may be necessary, as I said, the SAU may extend the reporting period, either through agreement with the public authority or by a request to the Secretary of State.

When that extension is agreed by mutual consent, the SAU has to publish a notice stating how much the reporting period has been extended by and why that has happened. If it cannot be agreed by mutual consent, the SAU can request that the Secretary of State directly extend the reporting period. That can be requested and, in turn, granted only in exceptional circumstances. We chose the CMA in the first place to host the SAU because of its expertise and experience in protecting competition and investment, making it a natural fit for those broad aims. We are already working closely with the CMA to plan for the delivery of the new SAU, ready for the implementation of the regime.

Clause 54 - Cooling off period following mandatory referral

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I beg to move amendment 3, in clause 54, page 30, line 8, leave out “on or”.

This amendment ensures that a public authority may give a subsidy after the reporting period expires, but not on the final day of that period.

The amendment consists of a very minor change that is nevertheless necessary to ensure the public functioning of the mandatory referral process. Clause 54 requires that the public authority waits for a cooling-off period to elapse following the subsidy advice unit’s report on a mandatory referral before giving a subsidy or making a subsidy scheme. That is intended to ensure that public authorities have a minimum window for considering the contents of such a report before giving the subsidy or making a scheme. Subsection (3) applies where the subsidy advice unit has not produced a report before the statutory reporting period of 30 working days. The reporting period is usually 30 working days. Here there is no need for a cooling-off period since there is no report for the public authority to consider. Instead, the public authority should be able to give the subsidy or make the scheme any time after the reporting period has expired.

As currently drafted, subsection (3) allows the public authority to make the subsidy on the last day of the SAU’s 30 working-day reporting period, before it has technically expired. That gives rise to the theoretical possibility of a public authority being able to give a subsidy or make a scheme on the last day of the reporting period, when there is still a short time left for the SAU to publish its report—that is not the intention. This amendment clarifies that the full reporting period must have expired before the public authority can give a subsidy or make a scheme without having to wait for a cooling-off period to elapse.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

We support Government amendment 3, which provides clarity as to exactly when the cooling-off period ends. I will reserve my other comments on the clause for the next stages.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I beg to move amendment 48, in clause 54, page 30, line 10, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “CMA”.

This amendment provides that the power to extend the cooling off period should sit with the CMA rather than the Secretary of State.

The Labour party accepts the necessity of the cooling-off period to ensure that appropriate consideration is also given to the CMA’s report. However, we do have some concerns about subsection (4) of the clause. We believe that the power to extend the cooling-off period should lie not with the Secretary of State but with the CMA. Given that the extension of the cooling-off period could have a significant effect on the granting of the subsidy and the effectiveness of its intended purpose, we should not risk it being seen as a politically charged, or political, decision. As such, we believe that it would be better for the CMA, an independent organisation whose judgment is trusted, to make that decision. Amendment 48 would make that change.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

As we have heard, clause 54 provides for a cooling-off period of five working days that have to expire before the authority can give a subsidy or make a subsidy scheme that has been subject to the mandatory referral process. The clause further provides that the Secretary of State may direct an extension to that cooling-off period if they judge that the report published by the SAU at the end of the mandatory referral process shows serious deficiencies with the public authority’s assessment against the subsidy control principles. Amendment 48 would remove that power from the Secretary of State and give the SAU the power to direct an extension to the cooling-off period. However, that would be at odds with the advisory role of the SAU, as laid out elsewhere in the Bill. We will discuss that in a more holistic way in the context of other amendments, particularly amendment 58 and new clause 3.

For now, I emphasise the Government’s view that the SAU is not a regulator or a gatekeeper, but rather acts as that impartial adviser for the most potentially harmful subsidies and schemes. Its reports are non-binding, and it will provide an important way of scrutinising the underlying assumptions in the design of subsidies and schemes, as well as identifying potential weaknesses. Granting a power to the SAU to extend the cooling-off period after it has published its report risks muddying the water between the role of adviser and enforcer.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

If there is a concern, does the Minister envisage the CMA being able to recommend extending the cooling-off period?

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Part of the CMA’s regular reporting on how the system works will look at the scheme holistically, and it may wish to look at that period as well. Ultimately, it is the Secretary of State who is responsible for the subsidy control system and its consequent effects on competition and investment across the UK. Although the SAU will be created to help facilitate the effective operation of the regime, it does not have the same overarching responsibilities as the Secretary of State, so it is right that the Government bear the responsibility for intervening in the subsidy control regime where necessary. In drawing the SAU into the space for that decision making and matters of public spending, even in a limited way, the amendment would risk the CMA’s hard-earned reputation for independence and political neutrality.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I have spent years looking at education reports and care inspectorate reports. There are criteria for giving marks and a particular language is used—something is good, poor or dreadful. Is the Minister expecting that “serious deficiencies” will be used by the CMA in the report? Will it say, “We consider there to be serious deficiencies”, which the Secretary of State would consider to be a red flag, resulting in the potential extension of the cooling-off period? Does the Minister think the CMA will do that explicitly, or will the Secretary of State have to read between the lines and try to work out how bad things are? We do not know how the reports will be structured, so it would be helpful if the Minister could make clear whether the Secretary of State is going to understand the meaning of the reports and whether the SAU would seek an extension to the cooling-off period because it believed there were serious deficiencies.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

There is not going to be a rating, because the SAU is not a regulator or enforcer, but it is responsible for making sure that the situation is made as clear as possible so that people, not least the Secretary of State, can understand it. That is why we have left this matter to the CMA—its staff are experts and have great experience of doing exactly that.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

This has been a very helpful debate. The Minister is right: we will discuss some contextual powers in the debates on later clauses and new clause 3. Clarifying the roles, expectations and powers for the CMA, the Secretary of State and other bodies, such as devolved Administrations, is an important point to come back to, but I will not press the amendment at this stage. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I beg to move amendment 50, in clause 54, page 30, line 18, at end insert—

“(5A) The Secretary of State must by regulations define ‘serious deficiencies’ for the purposes of this section.”

This amendment requires the Secretary of State to define “serious deficiencies” for the purposes of directing that the cooling off period is extended.

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 51, in clause 54, page 30, line 26, after “subsection” insert “(5A),”.

This amendment is linked to Amendment 50.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

It is a pleasure to move amendment 50 and, with that, to speak to amendment 51, to which it is related.

Clause 54(4) states that the Secretary of State can extend the cooling-off period if he or she considers that the CMA’s report has identified “serious deficiencies”. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North has referred to that point. Yet again, the Bill is lacking a key detail—namely, what would constitute a serious deficiency. We have had a brief discussion on this point. Clarity is necessary for public authorities, the CMA and interested parties, in order to have confidence in the new regime and the timing of subsidies.

The amendment would require the Secretary of State to define serious deficiencies for the purposes of directing that the cooling-off period is extended. It would be helpful to the Committee if the Minister could confirm how and where we will reach a definition of serious deficiencies and when we are likely to get that definition. My comments apply to both amendments 50 and 51.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

The meaning of the term “serious deficiencies” is intended to mirror the common understanding of those words, so we do not believe the requirement to define it further is necessary. Defining it further, either in the Bill or through regulations, risks leading to a situation where the Secretary of State judges that there is a serious problem with a public authority’s assessment, but is prevented from taking action because the specific problem is not exactly set out in those regulations.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I am slightly surprised, because serious deficiencies is being used as a trigger for the Secretary of State to be able to use a power. I would be very surprised if there was a common understanding that was so common that even the members of this Committee, if they were to secretly write it down on a piece of paper and compare notes, would have exactly the same definition of serious deficiencies. I am not sure that suggesting there is a common understanding, as if that is fact, is the right way to address this particular point. We need this defined, and we need to know when and where it will be defined.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

One of the problems is that, if we define it in the way I think the hon. Lady is after, we then lose some of the flexibility. I was just about to say that the exact situation will vary on a case-by-case basis. A serious deficiency could arise, for example, if the subsidy advice unit identified that the proposed subsidy or scheme might have significant negative effects on UK competition and investment but the public authority had not considered any of the options for mitigating those effects. Another example might be if the SAU identified significant technical flaws in or omissions from the public authority’s assessments of compliance with the requirements of chapters 1 and 2 of part 2, such as the analysis of how the subsidy incentivised a change in the beneficiary’s behaviour or the impact on international trade.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

Does the Minister agree that it is likely that the SAU will have internal working definitions of what is “acceptable” or “deficient”, and that it is likely to say that to the Secretary of State in giving its recommendations and possibly asking for any extensions?

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Absolutely—that is exactly what I was going to come on to. The hon. Lady has obviously seen the next paragraph I was going to read. The Secretary of State would not be taking that view on his own. It would not be an arbitrary judgment; it would be acting on the basis of a published report by the SAU, which is obviously independent.

As the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston said on Second Reading and has reiterated this week,

“the new system will work only if it provides transparency, oversight and scrutiny”.—[Official Report, 22 September 2021; Vol. 701, c. 341.]

This amendment only serves to undermine those aims slightly—unintentionally, I am sure—by limiting the circumstances in which the Secretary of State can act to extend the cooling-off period and ensure that a public authority has more time to consider the SAU’s comments. I therefore request that she withdraw her amendment.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I thank the Minister for his comments. I will not press the amendment to a vote, but I want to repeat this point. In light of what the Minister has said, some of the examples or scenarios that he has started to outline suggest that there is more that can be done to scope out, set out some expectations or perhaps put something in guidance so that there starts to be a sense of scope around what sorts of scenarios could result in a consideration of serious deficiencies.

I say that not because I am trying to create an issue that is not there, but because where we have something in legislation that is a basis on which a power is to be exercised, it is incumbent on the Government to ensure that there is greater clarity about what the expectations might be. That might not be a complete list, defined A to H, but it may be a broad set of guidance, for use both by the subsidy advice unit in making assessments, and by the Secretary of State in making a clearer and more transparent decision that could also be open to scrutiny. I hope the Minister will confirm to the Committee that he would be prepared at least to look at some of those areas he has outlined—perhaps there will be more and we might need to come back to this in the regulations—to provide clarity on what could be quite an important use of the power. We would hate for the use of the power to be challenged on the basis of people not agreeing that something was a serious deficiency. We do not want the process to be subject to unnecessary delays that could be dealt with by planning ahead for different interpretations. There is perhaps not the common understanding that the Minister thinks of “serious deficiencies”.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 54 establishes the cooling-off period that must elapse before a public authority may give a subsidy or make a subsidy scheme that has been referred to and reported on by the subsidy advice unit, following a mandatory referral.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

We have no further comments other than the issues we have raised already. We support clause stand part.

Clause 55 - Call-in direction

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I beg to move amendment 52, in clause 55, page 30, line 29, after “Secretary of State” insert

“, the Scottish Ministers, the Welsh Ministers and the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland”.

This amendment extends the call in powers under this section to the Devolved Administrations.

It is great to see you back in the Chair, Ms Nokes, bright and early this time.

The amendment addresses the call-in powers as they relate to the devolved Administrations. We think that the power to call in is a good power to have in the Bill, but it needs to be consistent and apply to the devolved Administrations, not just to the Secretary of State.

Clause 55 allows the Secretary of State to request an assessment of a subsidy or subsidy scheme if the Secretary of State believes it could be breaking regulations or having negative effects on competition and investment in the United Kingdom. As we have said a number of times, it is important that the First Ministers and the Northern Ireland Department responsible have those same powers. It makes no sense that the Secretary of State should be empowered to call in Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish subsidies that may damage English interests, but the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish leaders cannot call in subsidies that may damage the interests of their own nations. That is what we heard in the evidence sessions.

I start with the evidence from Thomas Pope, deputy chief economist at the Institute for Government, who told us that subsidy control

“affects devolved competence and the operation of policy in all four nations of the UK. I therefore think it is appropriate that there be better devolved representation.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 31, Q43.]

Simon Baynes (Conservative, Clwyd South)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

The hon. Gentleman is wearing a mask, so I will give way.

Simon Baynes (Conservative, Clwyd South)

In the previous discussions on this issue, the opinion of the Bill Committee seemed to be that these matters were the responsibilities of the Secretary of State. It therefore makes no sense to me to devolve those responsibilities to the devolved Administrations. In some of their comments, Opposition Members have fully accepted that these matters are the responsibility of the Secretary of State, because it is a reserved power.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Just because the Government keep winning the votes, which they always will do because they have a majority in Parliament and therefore on the Committee, that is not a reason for us to not make valid arguments. This is a slightly different point on our concerns about the failure to reflect the devolution settlement in the Bill. Call-in is a slightly different aspect of the powers needed for a functioning subsidy regime, and it is right that we are raising it at this stage of the deliberations.

Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

The hon. Gentleman is wearing a mask, so I will give way.

Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Is it not precisely the point that this does reflect the devolved agreement, because the Secretary of State has those reserved powers?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I think the hon. Gentleman missed the point I was making, but there we go. It is entirely appropriate, given that the regime is a four-nation regime, that the four nations have the powers of call-in to the CMA in the way that our amendment sets out.

Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)

This is an important point, so I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again so soon. There is no four nations concept within our constitution. We have one United Kingdom Government and three devolved Administrations. Four nations is something reserved for rugby matches and the vernacular—[Interruption.] Indeed, the rugby is six. It is not something within our constitution. He has referred to the four nations on several occasions, and on this occasion I feel it is important and relevant to make that point.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I suspect that more than one party would be very interested in repeating those remarks multiple times, certainly in two of the nations of this country. They are called nations within the devolved settlement; we have a devolution settlement that has “four nations” within it. It will be interesting to see how many times the hon. Gentleman is quoted saying that.

I will quote what George Peretz told us about why it matters that there should be a call-in power for all four nations:

“In a situation where an English local authority, the Secretary of State or another UK Government body acting as an English Department does something that is designed to benefit England but causes serious concern in Scotland or Wales, why should the Welsh or Scottish Ministers not be able to do the same thing if the concern is with competition or investment within the United Kingdom? I find it slightly hard to see what the argument against that is.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 44, Q63.]

I have not heard from either the hon. Member for Clwyd South or the hon. Member for Aberconwy an argument against what he told us last week.

Rachel Merelie, senior director for the Office for the Internal Market at the CMA, noted:

“It is really important that all granting authorities are treated fairly and equitably, regardless of whether they are in the devolved nations or in England.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 69, Q98.]

I am not the only one talking about the devolved nations by any means; we have it from the CMA.

Kevin Hollinrake (Conservative, Thirsk and Malton)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

The hon. Gentleman does not have a mask on, so I will not. He will be able to make a speech afterwards, as I think one of his colleagues said.

The devolved nations of the United Kingdom cannot be treated as second class when it comes to economic matters that could have potentially monumental impacts on the proper functioning of their markets. The devolved Administrations must have equitable powers with the Secretary of State to call in subsidies where they could be damaging to their own economies.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I stand as a proud representative of the nation of Scotland to make a brief speech on amendment 52. The powers that are suggested under clause 55 are limited powers. They are not unlimited powers to call in anything on a whim of the Secretary of State or of anybody else. They can only be called in in relation to subsidies or subsidy schemes of interest, or subsidies or subsidy schemes in which the Secretary of State considers there is a failure to comply with chapters 1 and 2 of part 2, or there is a risk of negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom.

The amendment proposed by the Opposition does not affect that. It would still apply only in the case that the devolved Administrations wanted to call in something that was a scheme of particular interest, or something that the Secretary of State had presumably already called in that was against chapters 1 and 2 of part 2 or where the Secretary of State agreed there were negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom. Those are not, as the Government members of the Committee have suggested, unlimited powers parallel to those of the Secretary of State; they are limited powers. The only time the power would be exercisable is if the schemes were of interest—rather than of particular interest, because they are mandatorily referred—and the three devolved Administrations would be able to call those schemes in. It would be a limited power that would only apply for schemes of interest. I absolutely support the amendment—it makes sense—and we would obviously like it to go further. We have a devolution settlement and this is a proportionate amendment that makes sense in the context.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Under the powers in the Bill as drafted, when the Secretary of State decides to exercise the call-in power, that direction has to be published. In addition, the SAU has to provide annual reports on its caseload, including any subsidies and schemes that were called in by the Secretary of State. That transparency will help ensure that the powers are used appropriately and that Parliament has oversight of how and when the powers are being used. Amendment 52 would allow those referrals to the SAU under the terms of clause 55 to be made by devolved Administrations, whereas the Bill provides the power for the sole use of the Secretary of State.

In the majority of cases, the most potentially harmful subsidies will be those that meet the criteria for subsidies of particular interest, which will be set out in regulations, but it is inevitable that there will be some subsidies or schemes that fall outside those boundaries. They will still benefit from the additional scrutiny offered by the SAU.

The call-in power provides a mechanism to catch potentially highly distorted subsidies that may not be caught within the “subsidies of particular interest” definition. It will also provide a safety net where there is a risk of failure to comply with the subsidy control requirements or there is a risk of negative effects of competition and investment within the UK. This is a reserved power and as such the Secretary of State’s responsibilities and interests in making referrals are UK wide. As a member of the UK Government, they are responsible for subsidies granted in all parts of the UK being compliant with our international obligations.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I have two questions. I would have expected that “particular interest” would cover anything that does not meet chapters 1 and 2 of part 2 anyway, so it would be nice if the Minister could clarify that point. Secondly, if any of the devolved Administrations request a meeting with the Secretary of State because they are concerned and want the Secretary of State to call something in, would the Secretary of State grant that meeting?

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

On meetings, I am not the Secretary of State, but effectively, yes—we want to engage with the devolved Administrations. We do that on a regular basis, and have done in the formulation of this Bill, as we have discussed many times, and we will continue to do so as we go through guidance and the working of the Bill.

In the event that one or more of the devolved Administrations has serious concerns about a subsidy given or a scheme made, of course they can request that the Secretary of State use that call-in power. The Secretary of State would carefully consider any request from their counterparts in the devolved Administrations, just as they would on any other policy matter. As I say, we have met the devolved Administrations a number of times since July 2020 on the formulation of this Bill. We continue to meet and engage with them regularly, and listen to their views as the Bill progresses through Parliament, and we will do so in the lead up to implementation. I request that the hon. Member for Sefton Central withdraws the amendment.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

My other question was about the definition of “particular interest”, or “interest”. Subsidies of particular interest will be mandatorily referred, as we have already agreed, but subsides that risk to fail to comply with the requirements of chapter 1 and 2 of part 2 could be referred by the Secretary of State. It would concern me if compliance was not part of schemes of particular interest, or schemes of interest. I understand that some schemes of particular interest would be defined on the basis of the sector they are in and the specific details of the subsidy, but I would expect that lack of compliance with the rules would cause a scheme to be of particular interest anyway. I hope the Minister understands what I am trying to get at here. If a subsidy does not comply with the subsidy control principles, surely it is either not a subsidy—it is not allowed—or it is a scheme of particular interest that would need to be looked at mandatorily, or perhaps optionally, by the CMA.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I think I get the general gist of where the hon. Lady is going with that point. That is why, rather than trying to define them as not complying, we are trying to define them specifically at the outset, hence the regulations that we will be putting forward, but there is plenty of opportunity to have that discussion.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North correctly made the point that the amendment asks for a limited set of powers. I set that out using the evidence. We should follow the evidence of people who are experts on these subjects. We had a range of very good witnesses, who set out why there should be the sorts of powers that we are proposing. I cannot help think that there will be occasions when the Secretary of State is making awards. If he, as it says in the Bill, is making those awards, is there not a potential conflict of interest if there is not another way of providing that call-in if there is perceived damage in the other three nations? The Minister might want to respond to that point.

The amendment makes a limited request. The Minister talked about requests to the Secretary of State for a call-in, but a request is not the same as a power. Unless there is that power—potentially in the case of a conflict of interest where the Secretary of State is the awarder—there is a limit to the way the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Administrations can ensure there is a fair application of the system in terms of call-ins. I would be grateful if the Minister could come back on this point about the potential conflict of interest where the Secretary of State is the awarder in relation to the use of call-in powers.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

As I say, the Secretary of State will be acting on behalf of the UK Government. Subsidy control is a reserved power, as we established in the debate for the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 that we had at length at the end of last year. None the less, there is no special treatment for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. There was plenty of opportunity through the publication of the advice and the reason for call-ins, and any enforcement that may need to be done through the Competition Appeal Tribunal to highlight that potential. None the less I think there were enough checks within the structure to avoid that. I hope the hon. Member will withdraw the amendment.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I do not think that we got an answer to my question. There is still the concern that if the Secretary of State says no and there are legitimate concerns in the three nations, there needs to be the additional limited opportunity of call-ins. We will push the amendment to a vote.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 55 gives the Secretary of State the ability to direct a public authority to request a report from the subsidy advice unit on a proposed subsidy or subsidy scheme. That may be made in relation to a subsidy of interest or any other subsidy or scheme that the Secretary of State considers to be at risk of failing to comply with the subsidy control requirements or of negatively impacting competition or investment in the UK. It is not intended to be used routinely, but it is a necessary safeguard. It is there to ensure that an additional layer of scrutiny can be applied to subsidies that might risk creating market distortions but would otherwise not be subject to mandatory referral to the SAU.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I was going to ask a question about this clause, and the Minister has managed to make me even more confused. Subsection (1) states:

“A public authority may request a report from the CMA before giving a subsidy, or making a subsidy scheme, of interest.”

It does not state that, additionally, any other subsidy may be referred to the CMA under a voluntary referral. It might elsewhere in the legislation, but it does not at this point.

My concern was that it relates only to subsidies “of interest”—subsidies of particular interest are covered by mandatory referral, and that is fine—but for subsidies that fall outside the category of interest, perhaps because interest is narrowly drawn by the regulations when interest is set, there seems to be no way for those public authorities to refer them voluntarily to the CMA, as the legislation is drafted. It would be good if they could.

Let us say that “particular interests” and “interests” are defined by the Government, that goes through the affirmative procedure, we have a discussion, and the definitions are agreed. Accidentally, however, something is left out of the category of interest—because we do not think of everything—and a local or public authority discovers the anomaly and thinks to itself, “Do you know what, I should refer this to the CMA voluntarily, because I think it probably should be included in the schemes of interest, but in the way that the legislation is written, it does not fall under that”, so it tries to make a voluntary referral. It cannot, however, because it may make a voluntary referral only in the case of something that is of interest.

There is a bit of a gap. Authorities should be able to make that voluntary referral, whether it is a scheme of interest or not. There is a concern. As to what the Minister said, absolutely, if the Secretary of State has a concern additional to the interest section, that would be fair enough and make a difference, or if the authority itself decides that it should be referred to the CMA. I do not think that that will be a huge amount of extra work. Authorities will not refer themselves to the CMA for fun; they will do so when they feel that there is a reasonable chance that what they are considering doing is contentious.

I will not vote against the clause, because voluntary referrals are a good thing, but I do not think that it goes as far as the Minister suggested it goes—unless I have missed something.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I was not entirely clear which clause the hon. Member for Aberdeen North was speaking to. We are still on clause 55 stand part—but it was a very good speech on the next clause, so we now know what she will say.

We expressed our concerns in the debate on our amendment. I hope that the Minister will reflect on those concerns and consider whether greater strength is needed in this clause and, similarly, I suspect, in clause 56—when we get to that debate.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

It is no wonder that I was confused by what the Minister said. He was speaking to clause 55 and I was looking at clause 56. Apologies.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

We will hear the hon. Lady’s comments again.

Clause 56 - Voluntary referral to CMA

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

The clause—wait for it—allows public authorities voluntarily to refer certain subsidies or subsidy schemes to the subsidy advice unit before they are given or made. Those are known as subsidies or schemes of interest, and the criteria will be set in secondary legislation, as set out in clause 11.

To make that voluntary referral, the public authority has to provide certain information about the subsidy or the scheme that will be referred, including an assessment by the public authority of whether its proposed subsidy or scheme would meet the principles, the prohibitions and the other requirements set out in chapters 1 and 2 of part 2 of the Bill.

The Secretary of State is also given the power to make new regulations specifying the form in which that information must be provided to the SAU, as well as any additional information that must be provided beyond that which is already set out in the clause. That will enable the content and the form of the request to be adapted based on operational experience of whether the SAU is getting the information it needs to report back effectively.

Openness, transparency and a risk-based approach to scrutiny will ensure confidence in the new UK subsidy control regime. The voluntary referral process provides an additional avenue of scrutiny for public authorities seeking to grant some of the more potentially distortive subsidies and schemes. To answer the question from the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, who may want to ask it again, the process gets the balance right by ensuring a flexible system with enough information for the public authorities to get it right in the first place. A lot of that will be done through guidance, and the SAU is there to be helpful and give advice; it is not an enforcer or a regulator.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

Let me just imagine that I made an excellent speech.

The concerns that I raised a few moments ago still stand. I think there should be more flexibility in the first part so that it is made clear to public authorities that they can refer something should it not fall under the specific definition of “schemes of interest”. I would appreciate it if the Minister considered tabling an amendment to that effect. I do not feel that that would make additional work.

I genuinely feel that public authorities would use that flexibility only in circumstances where they feel that “schemes of interest” has been defined too narrowly to cover the scheme that they would like to refer to the CMA. That flexibility would not be overused; nobody would be daft enough to overuse it. There seems to be no ability for public authorities to refer anything unless it is classed as a scheme of interest or particular interest, or is something deemed by the Secretary of State to meet various criteria. I would appreciate it if the Minister looked at that.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

The clause does indeed allow public authorities to

“request a report from the CMA before giving a subsidy, or making a subsidy scheme, of interest.”

We have had some interesting and helpful discussion so far, but our main concern remains the lack of clear definitions in the legislation, particularly the definition of “interest”. Such clarity would provide some necessary assurance to public authorities, the CMA and subsidy recipients about how the regime will work in practice.

We could have pre-empted this issue and had clearer definitions to ensure that more was done upstream by public authorities, meaning fewer referrals. More referrals will create more burden on the subsidy advice unit. Referrals will be made for good reason, however, so we absolutely need the provision. It is likely that there will be greater demand for referrals in the earlier stages of the regime’s implementation, but as people become familiar with the process and judgments become clearer, and the CMA gets some case studies to use, the system will improve.

It is important that there is clarity from Government. We may come back to some of this, but the referring public authority will also need clarity on what it will and will not get back. Guidance on that would be extremely helpful to make the legislation work effectively.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I take on board the hon. Lady’s point about guidance and ensuring that public authorities know what to provide and what to expect back. That is absolutely fair. In terms of where we go and how wide we make this, it is not our intention to replicate the needlessly complicated and slow processes under the state aid scheme; this will be focused on the most potentially distortive subsidies, to provide scrutiny where it is most needed, so it would not be proportionate to have the extra step for every subsidy regardless of size or impact.

The SAU itself will have discretion on whether to accept voluntary referrals based on the CMA’s existing and published prioritisation criteria, because we want to ensure that it can do its job effectively, but none the less offer that advice.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

The Minister is starting to go a little bit further in implying that there will be, perhaps not trade-offs, but decisions that will need to be made about whether to have the review done by the subsidy advice unit and what that might be intended for. What the clause might be intended for may not be the same as what public authorities may feel in wanting to seek a voluntary referral. Can he perhaps clarify whether, for example, undertaking a voluntary referral may be used to seek to provide reassurance so that there is less likelihood of a challenge later on? Decisions that are taken will bear some relationship to other parts of the Bill and the ability to bring challenges. What status would receiving a report back from the subsidy advice unit have? Could that be used if, for example, there was a challenge later on?

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Indeed, that is exactly the reason for the SAU not to be the regulator or the enforcer but to provide expert, independent advice. Even in the more distortive schemes, as I have always said, there is nothing stopping a public authority from giving the subsidy even if there is advice not to. However, since that advice is published, it would be available to people looking in on the matter, and in any referral to the CAT that would be taken into account. One of the reasons for putting it under the CMA is that it already has the expertise and the ability to give good advice and robust assessment and analysis.

Rightly, where the SAU itself considers appropriate, the public authority can get advice on the design of its subsidy or scheme, but the SAU will base that on its own criteria, such as the overall impact on competition, strategic significance and the available resources.

Clause 57 - CMA reporting period for voluntary referral

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 57 sets out the timeframe within which the SAU must publish its report on a subsidy or subsidy scheme. Once it has accepted a voluntary referral made by a public authority, it has an initial period of five working days to tell the public authority whether it will produce a report in response to the request. It will then generally have a reporting period of 30 working days in which to publish its report on the subsidy or subsidy scheme.

The clause also enables the Secretary of State to make regulations to amend either the period of five working days or the reporting period itself, which will allow the Government to amend those periods, should longer or shorter periods prove to be necessary based on experience of how the regime is working in practice. Any regulations would be subject to the affirmative procedure and therefore would need to be approved by Parliament in draft.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I thank the Minister for his comments on clause 57 stand part. The clause outlines the CMA’s reporting period for subsidies and schemes that are voluntarily referred to it. We have no issues with this clause, but I wanted to raise one small point in relation to subsection (6).

I would be grateful for clarity about how the Minister expects any extensions of the reporting period to be reported, because we do not just need to know that it is taking longer because there is complexity: we need to know whether it is taking longer because there is a resourcing issue, or because public authorities are not completing the paperwork correctly and there is some confusion over some information that might be provided. Understanding those reasons would inevitably be useful when seeking improvements to the system and making the process more efficient.

More efficiency also means less cost and better value for money, because it is public money that goes into the CMA and the subsidy advice unit, so we need to make sure those resources are used effectively and improve the quality of both the applications and the process. I would be grateful to understand how the Minister envisages that being done.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

It is in the interests of the SAU and everybody else that this system works. If the quality of evidence that public authorities are giving is causing complexities, feedback to those public authorities would be incredibly helpful in making sure the framework works, but it is also the kind of thing that would be covered in the CMA’s reporting when it says how the framework is working in itself.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

Would that be in the annual report, or in the five-year review? Five years is rather a long time.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

It would be in both. That reporting is there to say what subsidies exist and how the framework is working, but those conversations would also be happening all the time through the advice to public authorities and BEIS’s communications with the CMA on a regular basis, making sure that the framework works. As I said, it is in everybody’s interests that we get that exchange right.

Clause 58 - Call-in direction following voluntary referral

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 58 sets out what would happen if the subsidy advice unit agreed to report on a subsidy or scheme that has been voluntarily referred, and that subsidy or scheme is then called in by the Secretary of State. The clause streamlines the pre-award reporting process that would apply when the subsidy is called in following a voluntary referral, because the SAU should already have some familiarity with the subsidy or scheme that has been called in, due to its already having been voluntarily referred.

Three scenarios are dealt with within this clause. The first is where the SAU has not published its report on a subsidy or scheme that was voluntarily referred, and the statutory time limit for doing so has not yet expired. The second is where the SAU has not published its report on a subsidy or scheme that was voluntarily referred, and the statutory time limit has expired. The final scenario is where the SAU has already published its report on a subsidy, but that subsidy has not yet been given or made. This clause ensures that the processes for scrutinising subsidies and subsidy schemes by the SAU are as efficient and timely as possible.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

We agree that in such cases, the subsidy or scheme in question should be treated as if it were part of a mandatory referral to the CMA. We have no issues with this clause, and will vote for it to stand part.

Clause 59 - CMA report following mandatory or voluntary referral

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I beg to move amendment 53, in clause 59, page 33, line 13, leave out paragraph (a).

This amendment removes the power for the Secretary of State to amend this section by regulation.

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 54, in clause 59, page 33, line 17, leave out subsection (6).

This amendment is a consequential amendment linked to Amendment 53.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

We have concerns about the way the clause allows the Secretary of State to use regulations to affect the content and form of CMA reports. This is a question of the CMA’s independence. On the Competition and Markets Authority website, it describes itself as

“an independent non-ministerial department”.

The CMA’s work

“is overseen by a Board, and led by the Chief Executive and senior team. Decisions in…investigations are made by independent members of a CMA panel.”

In contrast, the clause would empower the Secretary of State to amend, by using regulations, the content of the CMA’s reports. It is very hard to see how this is anything other than a direct contradiction of the principle of independence, baked into the CMA’s set-up.

The timing of the change, given the shameful proceedings in the Commons Chamber yesterday, leaves the suspicion that it is, again, about removing the principle of independence from the heart of the CMA’s role. We saw this with the Prime Minister’s own adviser on ministerial standards, Sir Alex Allan, resigning because of the breach of the ministerial code, and we saw it yesterday with members of the ruling party scrapping the rules or attempting to scrap the rules on MPs’ conduct because one of their own was found guilty of what the Standards Committee described as an “egregious” breach and then wanting to scrap the role of the independent standards commissioner.

Robin Millar (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Of course, they will all want to intervene—

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

Order. May I remind hon. Members to stay within the scope of the Subsidy Control Bill?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Thank you, Ms Nokes. On that basis, it will probably not be wise to take the interventions. I am using these things as an example of the ruling party’s attempts to remove independence. The CMA is also supposed to be independent. We have seen a desire to break the rules and then just remake the rules in the main Commons Chamber, and I fear that now we may be seeing something similar—we need to ensure that we do not see something similar—when it comes to the independence of the CMA in its role with regard to the subsidy control regime.

Without amendment, the clause will allow the Government to rewrite the contents of an independent report if there is any warning that it will say something that they do not like. That is not how independence works, and it is not good government. Our amendments would remove the power for the Secretary of State to do that. It would remove the power to edit reports published by the CMA, and it would ensure that the independence of the CMA stays as it is.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I have just a brief question. This clause lays out things that reports following mandatory or voluntary referrals “must” include and some things that the reports “may” include. Can the Minister confirm that the reports may also include things not mentioned here and that the additional things that would be included would be at the discretion of the CMA? If it can include only the musts and the mays in the clause, it will not be able to include anything else that the CMA considers would be relevant in the report. Given that the Minister has stressed the independence and expertise of the CMA, it would be sensible to confirm that it can include matters that it feels are relevant, whether or not they are explicitly mentioned in the Bill.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

The CMA is independent and will use its expertise. I think that we have crossed wires here, because actually the clause allows the Secretary of State to talk about the content of the report but not to textually amend an independent report. That is not what we are talking about here, which is what is within scope of the report—to ensure that it can actually do it. This is to be able to give additional transparency and scrutiny in the regime itself. The clause allows him to make provision about the content and form of the report, but, as I said, not to change the text of an independent report.

Any changes to the content of the report must be made by the affirmative procedure. That is core to the subsidy control regime, because if the Government believe that the process needs to be refined, it is only right to have parliamentary scrutiny of it. By contrast, any specification as to the form of the report would be a technical regulation, for which the negative procedure is appropriate. Amendments 53 and 54 remove that possibility, except by future primary legislation.

As I say, removing the mechanism for amending or enhancing the baseline for SAU reporting that is set out in clause 59 would unnecessarily tie the hands of the SAU and future Governments seeking to improve the referral process based on the experience and expertise that is gathered over time through the functioning of the new regime. As set out in clause 67, the power to change the content of the report may be exercised only for a period of one year following the publication of SAU’s first report under clause 65.

As I have set out, however, changing the form of the report is a technical matter, so it is appropriate for the regulations to be subject to the negative procedure. I therefore request that the hon. Member for Sefton Central withdraws the amendments.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Clause 59(4)(a) uses the phrase

“amend subsection (1), (2) or (3) to make provision about the content of the CMA’s report”.

The Minister used the terms “text” and “content” interchangeably, which highlights our concern. Using secondary legislation, the Secretary of State is able to give himself the power to amend CMA reports. That is the problem—that is what overturns the power.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

The Minister did not answer my question about additional information that the CMA may include in a report that is outwith the scope of the Bill. It does not fall under part 2; it falls under something else that the CMA thinks is relevant and should be in the report. Does the hon. Gentleman agree?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

The Minister did not answer the hon. Lady’s question, so maybe he can do that after I finish my summing up, which will not take much longer.

We will push the amendment to a vote, because the Minister did not address our concerns about removing the independence of the CMA.

(Afternoon)

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

Before we start the meeting, may I make a humble request? Everybody is advised to wear masks.

Clause 59 - CMA report following mandatory or voluntary referral

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

As always, Mr Sharma, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Clause 59 specifies the contents of the report that must be produced by the subsidy advice unit on subsidies or schemes that are referred by public authorities or the Secretary of State. The SAU’s report must contain an evaluation of the public authority’s assessment of whether the subsidy or scheme complies with the subsidy control principles, prohibitions and other requirements. This will provide an additional layer of independent and impartial scrutiny of the most potentially harmful subsidies and schemes, shining a light on the public authority’s underlying assumptions and justifications for giving a subsidy or making a scheme.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North asked what would be in these reports, and whether the Competition and Markets Authority or the subsidy advice unit itself could add extra things. As long as those things are relevant, clearly, the subsidy advice unit can add more information. What it cannot do is directly comment on the legitimacy of a subsidy, because it is not an enforcement body: it is an advice unit, so there is a distinction there.

Clause 60 - Post-award referrals

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

We come now to amendment 55 to clause 60. Happy Diwali to Seema Malhotra and every other Member.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I beg to move amendment 55, in clause 60, page 33, line 20, after “Secretary of State” insert

“, the Scottish Ministers, the Welsh Ministers and the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland”.

This amendment extends the post-award referral powers under this section to the Devolved Administrations.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Sharma. You beat me to it: I wish you, and all who might be celebrating, a happy Diwali and Bandi Chhor Divas today. It is a very auspicious day, and it is a pleasure to be debating the Bill on such an auspicious day.

Clause 60 gives the Secretary of State the power to refer subsidies or schemes to the CMA after they have been awarded. Although Labour supports the general principle of post-award referrals, there are key problems that we wish to raise about this clause, not least the asymmetry of powers between the Secretary of State and the devolved Administrations, as well as some other key details. Amendment 55 has been tabled because, in our view, the Bill fails to provide the devolved Administrations with the proportionate and fair symmetry of powers that they should have, given that the Bill will operate across the UK.

Kevin Hollinrake (Conservative, Thirsk and Malton)

Is that not the point, though? The hon. Lady said “across the UK”; this is a UK-wide scheme, so we have to have somebody in overall charge of the scheme, which is why we cannot have symmetry of powers for all the devolved regions. The Secretary of State is Secretary of State for the entire United Kingdom, so does it not have to be the case that he holds some powers that the devolved Administrations do not?

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I thank the hon. Member for his contribution. He will see from the contributions of Opposition Members that we are not saying that exactly the same powers should be given in all circumstances to the devolved Administrations, but that there are areas in which arguments for the devolved Administrations having similar powers make sense within the context of how the regime may operate. With a view to how issues could be raised and dealt with, there may be very good reason for doing that. We propose this not for political purposes but because we seek a regime that will work effectively and with some symmetry of powers relating to the opportunity, where it would be helpful, to challenge subsidies. I will lay out a couple of reasons why.

The clause gives the Secretary of State the power to make post-award referrals to the CMA but does not extend this power to the devolved Administrations. The specific purpose of the amendment is to extend the post-award referral powers in the clause to the devolved Administrations. As it stands, the Secretary of State can refer to the CMA subsidies granted in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland that may be perceived to damage the interests of enterprises in England. However, the devolved Administrations cannot bring forward an argument. They may in time have good reason to refer subsidies—English or others—to the CMA that they may perceive damage interests within the devolved Administration areas.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I do not intent to speak to the amendment, but I want the Opposition spokesperson to know that she has my full backing for it.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I thank the hon. Member for her contribution in response to the challenge to us from the Government side, which I do not think is at all fair, because we have not at any point argued against this being a reserved power or the overall structure of the Bill. We have genuinely sought to amend the Bill to make sure that there is a fair and sustainable settlement that commands the confidence of all our nations.

Powers on subsidies and the regime overall should reside in Westminster, and we understand that it is crucial that subsidies under the regime do not distort the UK’s internal market—we would raise little concern on that, and we think it is vital that that is the case—but as such, devolved Administrations, such as the Scottish Parliament or Welsh Senedd, should have the opportunity to receive the CMA’s advice on subsidies that they consider could damage their national interest. It is not only Labour that thinks that. During the evidence session on 26 October, George Peretz QC, a barrister specialising in state aid, said:

“In a situation where an English local authority, the Secretary of State or another UK Government body acting as an English Department does something that is designed to benefit England but causes serious concern in Scotland or Wales, why should the Welsh or Scottish Ministers not be able to do the same thing if the concern is with competition or investment within the United Kingdom? I find it slightly hard to see what the argument against that is.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 44, Q63.]

Could the Minister share his reflections on those comments? Perhaps he will offer a robust argument for not allowing the devolved Administrations to make post-award referrals, because we fail to see a valid argument for that exclusion. Instead, it feels more like a lack of a fair distribution of powers, and something we should consider as the Bill makes progress. We therefore propose the amendment.

We hope that the Committee sees its importance in ensuring that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland feel that they have a fair role in the subsidy regime. I will await the Minister’s remarks before deciding what we shall do on this amendment.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

The amendment would extend the Secretary of State’s post-award referral power, set out in the clause, to the devolved Administrations. The debate is similar to one we had earlier. The Government intend to use the power in exceptional circumstances and it will be fully transparent, as a direction will be published in an appropriate place, which is usually gov.uk.

It is worth my being absolutely clear that the power simply allows for additional scrutiny and transparency of the public authority’s assessment that took place before it gave the subsidy or made the scheme in question. The measure does not make the subsidy unlawful after the fact, nor does it block the public authority from giving more subsidies under the scheme in question. I reassure the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston that any use of the post-award referral power will be transparent. When the Secretary of State exercises the power, the direction must also be published in an appropriate manner. That will make it clear that the power is being used appropriately and only in those exceptional circumstances.

Turning to the amendment, I believe that the call-in power should remain a matter for the Secretary of State only. Subsidy control is a reserved policy area, as we have heard. As I said when speaking to amendment 52 to clause 55, the Secretary of State’s responsibilities for subsidy control are UK-wide and, as in all matters, he will act in the interests of the whole of the UK. That includes responsibility for overseeing the system as a whole and ensuring that subsidies granted across the UK are compliant with our international obligations.

In the event that one or more of the devolved Administrations had serious concerns about a subsidy given or a scheme made, they would of course be able to request that the Secretary of State use the call-in power, as I said earlier. The Secretary of State would carefully consider any request from his counterparts in the devolved Administrations on that, as in any other policy matter. I stress again, as I said on the formulation of the Bill and as we will on the guidance for and the running of the regime, we will continue to engage as closely as we can with all our colleagues in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I believe, therefore, that it is neither appropriate nor necessary for the devolved Administrations to have the same ability to trigger a post-award referral. For the reasons that I have provided, I request that the hon. Lady withdraws the amendment.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I thank the Minister for his remarks. I fail to see an explanation. I understand the restatement of his position, but I feel that the argument was missing. This area is important to the effectiveness of the regime as a whole and over time, so I will press the amendment to a vote.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I beg to move amendment 56, in clause 60, page 33, line 27, at end insert—

“(c) that there is a risk of negative effects on competition or investment between the United Kingdom and a territory or country outside the United Kingdom.”

This amendment provides that a post-award referral can be made where the Secretary of State considers that a subsidy or scheme risks competition or investment between the UK and a third country.

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 57, in clause 60, page 34, line 1, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert—

“the day on which the subsidy is given or the scheme is made.”

This amendment would provide the Secretary of State with 20 working days beginning on which a subsidy is given or a scheme is made.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

It is my pleasure to move amendment 56 and to speak to amendment 57. We would like to address some further important gaps that we think exist in clause 60. First, as the clause stands, the Secretary of State cannot make a post-award referral on the basis that a subsidy may distort competition between the UK and a third country. In an article on 5 July entitled “UK Subsidy Control Bill—a brief summary”, George Peretz QC said that

“oddly, the Secretary of State does not appear to have that power if the possible subsidy only affects foreign countries, though such subsidies could well cause difficulty at international level.”

Labour is therefore proposing amendment 56, which would allow the Secretary of State to make post-award referrals on the basis that a subsidy or scheme is distorting international competition. We hope the Committee can understand why this is an important amendment. If the Government choose not to support it, will the Minister outline what the reason is and why the Government do not feel the need to refer subsidies that distort international competition to the CMA?

Secondly, we are proposing amendment 57, which would change the Secretary of State’s time to refer a subsidy or scheme to the CMA from 20 days after it is published on the database to 20 days after it is granted. The amendment is not intended to be used as a tool for reducing the time for post-award referrals; rather, it is intended to ensure that the Secretary of State can refer to the CMA grants that public authorities have incorrectly not categorised as a subsidy and that have therefore not been posted on the database. We hope the Minister recognises that, as the Bill currently stands, there is a loophole whereby subsidies incorrectly not identified can escape scrutiny and transparency. Amendment 57 is an attempt to close the loophole, and I therefore hope that the Government will work with us and support it.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

Thank you for chairing this afternoon’s meeting, Mr Sharma. I have a brief comment about the omission of the power set out in amendment 56. I would appreciate it if the Minister could let us know what assessment he has made of its compatibility with the trade and co-operation agreement and the World Trade Organisation rules if the Bill does not contain the power that the Opposition are suggesting should be put in via amendment 56.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 60, as we have heard, provides a power for the Secretary of State to direct a public authority to refer a subsidy or scheme to the subsidy advice unit after it has been given or made. The power can be used where the Secretary of State judges that there is risk of failure to comply with the subsidy control requirements, or of negatively impacting on competition and investment within the UK. The purpose of the power is to ensure that there is an opportunity for the subsidy advice unit to provide independent scrutiny and evaluation of the public authority’s assessment of compliance with the subsidy control requirements in circumstances where the subsidy or scheme was not subject to mandatory referral before the subsidy was given or the scheme was made. That independent analysis will increase transparency and provide useful information to the Secretary of State and any potential interested parties, if they are considering a judicial review challenge to the subsidy or scheme. In circumstances whereby the subsidy is given in multiple instalments or further subsidies will be given under the scheme, it may also give the public authority advice that allows it to make adjustments for future instalments or subsidies.

Amendment 56 would add a further scenario that would permit the Secretary of State to direct a referral where they were concerned about a subsidy or scheme’s potential impact on competition and investment between the United Kingdom and other territories. Clause 60(2)(b) explicitly underlines that a referral may be made where

“there is a risk of negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom.”

That is important, because it reflects the domestic character of the new subsidy control regime and emphasises our commitment to protecting our vibrant free market economy.

However, as we have heard, the subsidy control regime is also concerned with impacts on international trade and investment and, in order to comply with our international obligations, this is enshrined in the subsidy control principles. In particular, principle G requires that the benefits of a subsidy or scheme outweigh the negative effects, including those on international trade and investment.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

The Minister is attempting to explain why the Government have explicitly included one of the principles, but not the other principle. It seems to me, if one principle is included, they all need to be included, or none of them. Giving extra importance to one principle suggests that the other principles are less important, and therefore amendment 56 makes a huge amount of sense to me.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I will come back to that in a second, but let me finish talking about principle G. If the Secretary of State has concerns that a subsidy does not comply with principle G, or any other subsidy control requirement that is connected to international trade or our international obligations, then they may already direct a referral under subsection 2(a) of this clause, meaning that this amendment is redundant.

I also want to point out that the Bill deliberately refers to “trade or investment” between the UK and other territories, rather than “competition or investment”. The Secretary of State does not have any role in managing the balance of competition between nations. That is enshrined in those obligations.

Amendment 57 concerns the time limits for the referral power in clause 60. The Bill limits this power to within 20 working days from either the day in which the subsidy or scheme is entered onto the transparency database, or, where a subsidy or scheme is exempted from that requirement, 20 working days from the date the subsidy is given or made. These timeframes mean there is a significant window during which a post-award referral may be made. Most subsidies and schemes must be entered on to the database within six months of being given or made, while for tax measures, as we have discussed, the period is within a year.

Amendment 57 removes the ability to issue a post-award referral following entry on the transparency database, and would only allow a referral within 20 days of the subsidy being awarded or made. There is no loophole, as was suggested, but 20 days after the upload of the database is the end of the time period when the referral needs to be made. It does not start with the date of the upload on the database.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

On the point the Minister made in relation to “competition or investment” and the disparity between that and “trade or investment”, if the Opposition amendment referred to “trade or investment”, would it be acceptable to the Minister?

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Again, the principles are enshrined, and it is the principle that complies with those international treaty obligations.

Going back to the timeframes, amendment 57 would have the effect of curtailing the power and reducing the opportunity to provide transparency on the most concerning subsidies. That would mean, in some circumstances, the deadline could have expired before the Secretary of State or any interested party had any news of the subsidy at all. The additional scrutiny and transparency offered by this measure will undoubtably be lost in some cases which may have benefited from the use of this power, and risks undermining confidence in the system as a whole. I therefore request that the hon. Member withdraw amendment 56.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I thank the Minister and the hon. Member for Aberdeen North for their comments.

The Minister referred to principle G in schedule 1, which I was going to refer to in my final comments. As the hon. Member for Aberdeen North highlighted, there seems to be an asymmetry between G (a) and (b) and what is reflected in clause 60(2). I take the point that using the word “trade” better reflects the wording in principle G, but the asymmetry issue remains. It might end up causing confusion because, on one hand, there is what is implied under principle G (a) and (b), but on the other clause 60(2)(b) says

“there is a risk of negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom.”

It seems almost to imply that this power covers G (a) but not G (b), and I would hate for there to be confusion about this that was not intended.

I will not push the amendment to a Division, but I would be grateful if, perhaps in writing, the Minister could clarify this, and provide a more detailed note about how and where those powers may apply to risks of negative effects on international trade or investment. It is important that there is integrity in the Bill. If we have misunderstood something, that is absolutely fine, but if there is a gap or an area that could perhaps lead to confusion about what is and is not subject to a legal challenge, it would be helpful to resolve that earlier rather than later.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I think that it is a misunderstanding, but I am happy to write to clarify that.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 60 provides a power for the Secretary of State to direct a public authority to refer a subsidy or scheme to the subsidy advice unit after it has already been given or made.

Clause 61 - CMA reporting period for post-award referrals

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I beg to move amendment 58, in clause 61, page 34, line 23, after “section 60” insert

“, or makes a decision to investigate under section [Post-award investigations],”.

This amendment is a consequential amendment linked to NC3.

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 3—Post-award investigations—

“(1) The CMA may decide to conduct an investigation in relation to a subsidy that has been given or a subsidy scheme that has been made.

(2) A decision under subsection (1) may be made in relation to any subsidy or subsidy scheme in respect of which the CMA considers—

(a) that there has or may have been a failure to comply with the requirements of Chapters 1 and 2 of Part 2, or

(b) that there has or may have been a failure to comply with the transparency obligations set out in Chapter 3 of the Part 2.

(3) Where the CMA makes a decision to investigate under subsection (1), it must direct the public authority to provide it with—

(a) any assessment carried out by the public authority as to whether the financial assistance fell within the meaning of “subsidy” or “subsidy scheme” for the purposes of this Act, and the reasons for that conclusion;

(b) any assessment carried out by the public authority as to whether the financial assistance if assessed to constitute a subsidy or subsidy scheme would comply with the requirements of Chapter 1 and 2 of Part 2 and the reasons for that conclusion;

(c) any evidence relevant to those assessments;

(d) in a case where such assessments were not provided, the reasons for the assessments not being provided;

(e) any information that the public authority failed to enter in the subsidy database in accordance with Chapter 3 of Part 2; and

(f) such other information as is specified in regulations under section 60(8)(a).

(4) Where the CMA decides to conduct an investigation under subsection (1), the direction given under subsection (3) must be made before the end of 20 working days beginning with the day on which the subsidy is given or the scheme is made.

(5) The CMA must send a copy of the direction given under subsection (3) to the public authority and the Secretary of State.

(6) The public authority must provide to the CMA the information required under subsection (3) before the end of the information period as defined in section 60(7).”

This new clause provides the CMA with the power to conduct a post-award investigation where the public authority has or may have failed to comply with its requirements.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

It is pleasure to move amendment 58 and to speak to new clause 3. I am grateful for the opportunity to do so, because we think that this is quite an important area in which to seek some wider changes to improve the Bill.

In relation to post-award referrals, new clause 3 says that the CMA must publish a report on the subsidy or scheme within 30 working days. That reporting period may be extended by agreement between the CMA and the public authority, or the CMA may in certain circumstances request an extension from the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State may also make regulations that amend the length of the reporting period.

We support clause 61 overall and will vote for it to stand part. However, new clause 3 would extend the CMA’s powers with regard to post-award referrals. This is an issue that George Peretz outlined in his evidence to us. New clause 3 would allow the CMA to conduct post-award investigations into subsidies or schemes on its own initiative. The aim of the new clause is to ensure that, as mentioned in our previous discussion, subsidies that are, perhaps incorrectly, not categorised as subsidies and that therefore avoid scrutiny and transparency are able to be scrutinised should they come to light. George Peretz told us:

“There is an issue about the position of subsidies that are not recognised by the granting authority as subsidies.”

He added that

“it will be true under the definition of subsidy in the Bill, that there is room for considerable disagreement and argument about whether certain types of measures are subsidies at all.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 42, Q61.]

Will the Minister enlighten the Committee as to his reflections on that? It is a genuine area of concern for someone who is a distinguished lawyer in the field. Does the Minister recognise that the Bill therefore appears to contain loopholes with regard to subsidies that may deliberately not be defined as such, and are therefore not formally recognised as such?

We have taken the comments raised in evidence quite seriously. We believe that the Bill contains this loophole and we want it closed. We want to ensure that all subsidies are subject to transparency and scrutiny and that, if they are not entered into the subsidy database but there is good reason to question or challenge whether they are indeed a subsidy and should be considered subject to the subsidy control regime, there is some mechanism to allow that to happen.

The CMA is an independent, well-regarded institution. It can and should be trusted to undertake the necessary investigations into certain subsidies, while not wasting time and where there is good reason—there could be some discussion about the criteria that may be helpful in determining that. As such, we believe that new clause 3, which gives the CMA the power to undertake investigations on its own initiative, is an appropriate response to the loophole. Amendment 58 is consequential on new clause 3. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 61 sets out the process for the subsidy advice unit’s report following a post-award referral by the Secretary of State under clause 60. Amendment 58 provides for a new clause to be inserted after clause 61, seeking to establish a power for the subsidy advice unit to initiate a post-award referral of its own accord. The amendment inserts a reference to the new clause proposed by the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston.

I will start by setting out the policy rationale behind the specific role for the new subsidy advice unit set out in the Bill. The Government believe that subsidy control is far more than a box-ticking exercise. It is essential to protect UK competition and investment and to ensure that we are compliant with our international commitments. However, some commentators, and perhaps some hon. Members, seem to believe that the highest form—the gold standard—of subsidy control is the EU state aid regime. I entirely reject that view. Public authorities controlled by all parties have faced delays, unnecessary bureaucracy, and disproportionate prohibitions.

The Bill will establish a strong subsidy control regime that safeguards our vibrant free market economy. It also makes the most of the opportunities of exiting the EU by avoiding the complex and stifling rules and regulation that are a hallmark of EU state aid.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

In relation to the debates on Second Reading and others that we have had in good faith in relation to the Bill, it is important not to draw on arguments that are not relevant or pertinent to the clear point being made. There may well be public authorities that, for all intents and purposes, are granting subsidies—spending public money—without categorising them as subsidies. In doing so, they avoid being held publicly accountable and being challenged and scrutinised in relation to the subsidy control principles. If that is the case, what happens, and who can act if a challenge should be brought?

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I was just about to turn to enforcement. The role of the subsidy advice unit is one of the most important pillars of our new approach. It strikes the right balance, as part of an enabling regime that is none the less robust in its protection of competition and investment.

The unit will enhance the scrutiny and transparency of the subsidies that are most likely to lead to distortive or harmful effects. In doing so, it will provide reassurance to public authorities giving subsidies that they have appropriately considered the subsidy control requirements. I welcome that—it speaks exactly to the hon. Lady’s point.

The subsidy advice unit is not a regulator. It does not have investigatory or enforcement powers. The mechanism for enforcement of the new domestic subsidy control regime set out in the Bill is the process of a judicial review challenge in the Competition Appeal Tribunal.

I start from the position that most if not all public authorities take their statutory obligations very seriously, as they do their obligations to spend taxpayers’ money effectively, and to balance the positive effects of their interventions against the costs to UK competition and investment. Of course, there is a need for safeguards and enforcement mechanisms and, as hon. Members have emphasised, for transparency and opportunities for public scrutiny, but a statutory obligation is none the less a powerful tool.

Under the UK constitution, the normal way to challenge the actions of a public authority in respect of their statutory obligations is through judicial review in UK courts and tribunals. We have taken that path in the Bill, broadly replicating the judicial review process in part 5 of the Bill, so that cases can be brought to the Competition Appeal Tribunal, with some adjustments and additions to account for the specificities of giving subsidies. Most notably, that means that we have provided for a recovery mechanism.

New clause 3 would give an investigatory role to the subsidy advice unit that is at odds with the specific and limited role set out in the Bill. We want an agile and responsive regime that firmly places decision making and responsibility with the public authorities. That allows space for innovation and creative solutions to local policy problems, while protecting competition and investment through a measured risk-based approach to enforcement.

The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston may or may not agree with that vision, but we do not believe that the new clause represents a viable or credible alternative. It does not establish how the SAU may come by information directly that may lead it to launch an investigation. It does not establish any incentive for a public authority to comply with any such investigation, nor any consequences for failing to do so. It does not provide the means for the SAU to compel a public authority to co-operate with any such investigation, nor does it suggest in what way the SAU should analyse the information it gathers through its investigation. It does not offer any meaningful improvement to the Bill.

The hon. Lady asked what would happen with a subsidy of particular interest that has not been sent to the CMA. It is then a prohibited subsidy. That is covered in the Bill. The appropriate avenue is through the Competition Appeal Tribunal, if it has caused harm.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

There is a lot to work through and to disentangle about what exactly would happen. The first question that would need to be asked in such a situation is, “Is this a subsidy?” Which body does the Minister consider is the right body to confirm whether it is a subsidy within the definitions and the regime in the Bill? Is it the Competition Appeal Tribunal? Or would it be, in normal circumstances, the CMA? It would be helpful to know.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

It is the public authority. That is the whole point of the permissive approach in the Bill. The guidance that will be published and the principles that are set out in the Bill, alongside the ability to refer to the subsidy advice unit, will give the public authority the knowledge it needs.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I understand that point—it is a fundamental part of how the regime will operate. In a circumstance where, either deliberately or mistakenly, a public authority does not categorise its subsidy as a subsidy and it is not entered on the database, and therefore it is not subject to the same opportunity for scrutiny and challenge, but it is then identified and raised through some other means, one of the first questions will be whether or not it is a subsidy. I do not think that in that circumstance we can go back to the public authority and have it mark its own homework, so would the institution responding to the challenge answer whether it is a subsidy, or would it be the Competition Appeal Tribunal, or would it be the CMA?

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

It would be the Competition Appeal Tribunal, because the enforcement is done through judicial review.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

I thank the Minister for that. That is helpful for us to take away and reflect on within the context of the flow of functions in the Bill, and I think we will come back to it. He talked about some questions that our new clause might give rise to. If the Government change their mind, and consider that there might be a gap and a different way of addressing it, we would of course be very happy to make some suggestions in addition to new clause 3. Somehow this needs to be more clearly defined within the context of the whole regime. It is important for transparency, value for money and to ensure that where public authorities may, deliberately or otherwise, seek to avoid the scrutiny of the regime, it is easier to bring that back in, and for there to be transparency. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 61 sets out the timeframe within which the subsidy advice unit must publish its post-award report on a subsidy or subsidy scheme once it has been referred to by the Secretary of State.

Seema Malhotra (Labour/Co-operative, Feltham and Heston)

We will support clause stand part.

Clause 62 - CMA report following post-award referral

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

I beg to move amendment 4, in clause 62, page 35, line 40, leave out paragraph (b).

This amendment modifies the content of the CMA’s post-award report to ensure consistency with the content of the pre-award report required under clause 59.

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment 5.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Amendment 4 is a minor change to clause 62(4), which sets out the requirements for the SAU’s report following post-award referral. The amendment ensures clarity and consistency between the reports produced by the subsidy advice unit for both pre-award and post-award referrals. The effect of the amendment is to remove provision for the subsidy advice unit to offer optional advice on changes required to mitigate the distortive effects of a subsidy or scheme as part of its report following the post-award referral of a subsidy or scheme. On reflection, and having worked closely with SAU colleagues on the design of their functions, the Government decided that a separate provision was unnecessary for both pre-award and post-award reports.

Clause 62(4)(a) already provides for the SAU to offer optional advice on how a subsidy or scheme might be modified to better comply with the subsidy control requirements under chapters 1 and 2 of part 2 of the Bill. The subsidy control requirements include the obligation to ensure that subsidies are consistent with the principles, including principle F, which provides that subsidies should minimise

“any negative effects on competition or investment within the United Kingdom.”

Subsection (4)(a) therefore already enables the subsidy advice unit to advise on how any adverse impact on competition and investment could be mitigated to ensure consistency with the subsidy control principle. Subsection (4)(b) is therefore unnecessary. The amendment removes the redundant paragraph for the clarity and consistency that I talked about, with the pre-award referral reports detailed under clause 59, where there is no separate provision of that kind.

Amendment 5 would remove nuclear energy subsidies and subsidy schemes from the list of subsidies that are exempt from the referral provisions in chapter 1 of part 4. It would, in essence, carve nuclear energy subsidies back into the referral regime. The Bill carves nuclear energy subsidies out of the referral provisions. The list of exempt areas in clause 64 includes matters such as subsidies under the minimal amounts of financial assistance threshold and subsidies for national or global economic emergencies, or else subsidies to which specific international obligations apply. There is a clear rationale that these subsidies are either of generally low risk, in urgent need of being granted or subject to bespoke arrangements established elsewhere in the Bill because of our international obligations. These rationales do not apply to nuclear energy subsidies.

The Government are clear that nuclear energy subsidies and subsidy schemes should be subject to the terms of the subsidy control regime. This includes referral to the subsidy advice unit in cases where the subsidy or scheme in question is of interest or particular interest.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I am baffled by this Government amendment. It seems to be directly opposite to what the Opposition moved. The Opposition were concerned that one of the principles was mentioned in the post-award referrals clause, but the others were not. With amendment 5, the Minister concedes that one of the principles should not be mentioned and is therefore asking for it to be taken out of clause 62 but not of the post-award referrals clause. To clause 60, he argued, I think, that it was okay to include one of the principles, but not the others. I am confused about why he made one argument at one point in the debate but is now arguing the opposite—for the removal of one of those principles.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

It is good to see you back in the Chair, Mr Sharma. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North makes a good point, which we reiterate, about amendment 5, which we will come to because of its relation to our amendments to clause 64.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

On the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, in the previous sitting we talked about UK competition and investment. It simply emphasises the point about UK competition and investment. It does not have any significant effect, because it is already captured in the guiding principles. We want to make sure that there is absolute clarity for businesses and public authorities with clause 62.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

So the principle has been removed from clause 62 but is being kept under clause 60? Is that correct? There is no Government amendment to remove that provision from clause 60, but the Government felt it was so important that they need to remove it from clause 62, even though it is literally the same—whether it is post-award referrals or CMA reports following a post-award referral. I am just baffled by the inconsistency, to be honest.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

There is no Government amendment to clause 60.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 62 specifies the content of the subsidy advice unit’s report on a subsidy or scheme that is referred by the Secretary of State after being given or made. The subsidy advice unit must evaluate any assessment that the public authority has provided as to whether the subsidy or scheme would comply with the subsidy control principles, prohibitions and other requirements. If an assessment was not provided, that fact must be recorded in the report, along with any reasons provided by the public authority as to why an assessment was not provided. If the subsidy or scheme is ongoing, the subsidy advice unit may also provide advice about how the subsidy or scheme might be modified with a view to ensuring compliance with the principles, prohibitions and other requirements. Finally, the Secretary of State may make further provision by regulation as to the content and form of the post-award referral report.

Clause 63 - Referrals in relation to subsidy schemes

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 63 excludes individual subsidies granted through the mechanism of a subsidy scheme from being capable of referral to the subsidy advice unit under part 4. That aligns with the approach taken throughout the Bill. Public authorities may create subsidy schemes providing for the giving of individual subsidies. It is the scheme itself that must be assessed for its compliance with the subsidy control requirements, rather than the individual subsidies granted within the scheme. It is likewise the scheme that falls to be challenged in the CAT for failure to comply with the subsidy control requirements. Ultimately, it is not necessary to refer subsidies given under a scheme because they can be given only within the set parameters of that scheme, and the scheme itself is capable of being referred to the subsidy advice unit.

Michael Tomlinson (Conservative, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

Very good.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I say to the hon. Member who spoke from a sedentary position that it was not very good. As we have said throughout the—

Michael Tomlinson (Conservative, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

For Mid Dorset and North Poole.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I think he is trying to intervene. I would not take an intervention from him anyway, because he does not wear a mask.

I rise to reiterate our concern about the lack of transparency throughout the Bill and how subsidies cannot be called in when they are under schemes. That is a continuous thread. The real concern is that potential abuses can be missed as a result of that approach. The clause exempts subsidies under schemes from a review, from post-award referrals and from voluntary referrals. We agree that schemes provide a quicker and easier route to provide subsidies, but that should not mean that subsidies awarded under those schemes should escape due scrutiny. If there is not a problem with a subsidy, there is nothing to be concerned about, but if there is a problem with a subsidy awarded under a scheme, there needs to be a mechanism, and I hope the Minister will explain what that mechanism will be, because I do not think we have heard during our deliberations about the scrutiny of potential problems with subsidies awarded under schemes.

There is the potential for a back door of free, unscrutinised public cash being opened up. We have seen problems throughout the pandemic where scrutiny was removed. I will not go over them in too much detail. We have heard about them already, such as the Health Secretary’s pub landlord, advisers to the Board of Trade, and the problems of Randox and the now former right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson)—I understand, hot off the press, that he has resigned. Some £3.5 billion-worth of covid-19 contracts were awarded to firms with links to the Conservative party, according to Government procurement data. That is an example of why we need adequate scrutiny.

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

Order. That is not within scope.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

It is an example of why scrutiny is required in this legislation.

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

I am advised that that is not in the scope of this stand part debate.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

There is a monumental lack of scrutiny in the clause that should not be allowed to continue, so we will oppose it.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I have a few questions. Are there any circumstances in which a subsidy given under a subsidy scheme could be considered of interest or of particular interest where the scheme itself is not considered of interest or particular interest? If that is the case, is it possible to ensure that a subsidy scheme in which any of the potential subsidies are considered as possibly of interest or particular interest is subject to the mandatory or voluntary referral, rather than the subsidies given under those schemes not being subject to any referral, despite the fact that some of them might tick the boxes and some will not? Does the Minister see what I mean?

I understand that the question is complicated but, specifically, I am concerned about the lack of ability to refer individual subsidies. Only subsidy schemes may be referred to the mandatory or voluntary referral process; the subsidies made under those schemes may not be referred. However, if we had a scheme that seems to tick all the normal boxes to make it acceptable as a subsidy scheme—it is given under clause 10 and all makes sense—but one of the subsidies given under that scheme is something that is of interest or particular interest, will the Minister confirm that that scheme will therefore be subject to mandatory referral, even if only one of the subsidies given under the scheme is of interest or particular interest?

Even from reading clause 10, I am not sure quite how tight “subsidy scheme” is drawn. Subsidy schemes—given the schemes we have seen in relation to covid, for example—can be incredibly wide and apply to a significant number of industries, whereas the Secretary of State might have made it clear that any subsidies given under agriculture, for example, are considered as particular interest. A scheme could apply to everything in a certain area—widely drawn—but might not be challengeable in its own right.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

If a scheme can contain a subsidy of interest or particular interest, that scheme becomes a scheme of interest or particular interest, depending on the circumstances. That is therefore very much the case.

In answer to some of the points made by the hon. Member for Sefton Central on hiding subsidies and distorted payments, we have the basic level of how to treat public money—the statutory obligations on those public authorities that we discussed earlier—but the schemes themselves do not provide a back door for potentially multiple subsidies; public authorities have to consider the principles of the scheme, in the same way as they would for individual subsidies. They must not make a scheme if they judge that any subsidy within that scheme conflicts with any of the principles.

The decision to make the scheme has exactly the same risk-based scrutiny of the potential challenges as the decision to award a subsidy—especially those schemes of particular interest, which are called in by the Secretary of State and must be referred to the subsidy advice unit.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I want to tease out some information from the Minister. He used the phrase “risk-based scrutiny”, but I get no sense of what, if there is abuse of a scheme, the mechanism is to ensure that the subsidies within the schemes are not applied in a distorted way or in a way that misuses public money. That is the bit that I do not get.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

The scheme itself will be challengeable.

Clause 64 - Other exemptions

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

I call Seema Malhotra to move amendment 59

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

rose—

Virendra Sharma (Labour, Ealing, Southall)

Apologies. I call Bill Esterson.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I beg to move amendment 59, in clause 64, page 36, line 11, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b).

This amendment removes the exemptions in relation to the CMA’s referrals and functions, for streamlined subsidy schemes and minimal financial assistance.

We are all having fun changing our minds this afternoon—well, maybe the Government are not changing theirs too much. We have tabled amendments 59 and 60, and the combined effect of those amendments would be to remove

“the exemptions in relation to the CMA’s referrals and functions, for streamlined subsidy schemes and minimal financial assistance.”

We understand that it may well be appropriate to exempt certain subsidies from review. During a natural disaster or a national or global economic emergency, it makes sense that subsidies designed to alleviate those emergencies should be exempt from the regulations. The same goes for a national security emergency; matters related to Bank of England monetary policy; legacy and withdrawal agreement subsidies; tax measures; special public economic interest assistance; and large cross- border or international co-operation projects. However, Government amendment 5 acknowledges that it would not be appropriate for subsidies in relation to nuclear energy to be exempt from due scrutiny, so this is about being consistent. That goes to the point that the hon. Member for Aberdeen North has made a number of times today alone, about whether subsidies awarded in unexceptional circumstances—namely, streamlined subsidy schemes and minimal financial assistance—should be free from appropriate transparency and scrutiny. We are being consistent by continuing that point.

During the debate on clause 63 stand part, I did not get an answer to my question about why the Minister believes that those subsidy schemes should be exempt from regulations. I go back to what Professor Rickard told us in Committee:

“The benefits of transparency, and more of it, outweigh the costs…I would encourage Members to think carefully about the ways in which we could further increase the transparency to ensure that the UK was a world leader in transparency in subsidies and so as to help to provide consistency and certainty for business and accountability to taxpayers.”––[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 19, Q22.]

The Minister—and, from memory, the Secretary of State on Second Reading—talked about this domestic subsidy scheme being an opportunity to demonstrate a new way of operating a state aid regime, having left the EU system behind us. Indeed, some of the questions that hon. Members asked during the evidence session were of a similar nature: they were about what we could learn and what we could do in order to have the best possible system and lead the world. That is what the spirit of this amendment is about: improving transparency to deliver the best quality of regime possible. As Thomas Pope said when summed up his evidence:

“My view is that there is a benefit to more transparency.”—[Official Report, Subsidy Control Public Bill Committee, 26 October 2021; c. 20, Q24.]

We have made the point multiple times about the importance of transparency in public expenditure and what a good thing it is, because without it, there is a danger of public finances being spent recklessly without consideration of value for money. Our amendments would ensure that when a subsidy is awarded in unexceptional circumstances, there is adequate transparency. Again, I have to ask the Minister why he is so resistant to increased transparency in this part of the Bill.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I want to raise specific concerns about the first part of this amendment—I am not concerned about the amendment, but I have concerns relating to the first part of it, which is about taking out paragraph (a). Paragraph (a) relates to streamlined subsidy schemes, which were discussed in clause 10. In clause 10, the streamlined subsidy schemes are allowed to be made only by a Minister of the Crown, rather than by anybody else. I understand the Minister’s desire for an ability to make streamlined subsidy schemes—that makes sense. Unfortunately, the amendments that were tabled to widen that out to allow the devolved Administrations to make streamlined subsidy schemes were not accepted.

The exemption of streamlined subsidy schemes from the whole of chapter 1 of part 4 bothers me. If the whole point of the streamlined subsidy schemes is in order for things to happen quickly, I understand that the Minister would not want the mandatory or voluntary referral process to apply in respect of them. However, I do not understand how he can justify the post-award referrals not taking place specifically for streamlined subsidy schemes. It is completely reasonable that, should a streamlined subsidy scheme be about a subject of interest or particular interest, a post-award referral should take place.

I understand completely that the subsidy scheme needs to go before Parliament in order to become a streamlined subsidy scheme, but Parliament is not always right. Sometimes Parliament is wrong, and sometimes it bears scrutiny from experts such as the CMA, which should have the ability to look at this as a post-award thing. I would probably not have gone quite as far as the Labour Front Bench, although I will support this amendment, but I have particular concerns about the lack of post-award scrutiny for streamlined subsidy schemes. If we have a parliamentary process, we are not getting the benefit of the CMA’s advice or its consideration.

It is the case that mistakes were made during the course of covid. Things were done too quickly, and errors were made as a result. An after-the-fact examination to find out what went wrong and whether it is possible to do better next time would be helpful, particularly around streamlined subsidy schemes. Once again, that is not about trying to remove the speed of the process—I understand why the Minister wants that speed—but about a post-award or post-subsidy scheme set-up check to ensure that things are going the way the Government intend them to go.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 64 provides for a limited number of exemptions from some or all of the provisions on the referral of subsidies and schemes to the SAU. The objective of subsections 1 and 2 is to list the types to which it is inappropriate for the SAU referral provisions to apply.

In some cases, the substantive subsidy control requirements do not apply, so it is not possible to evaluate a public authority’s compliance with those requirements. In other cases, the subsidy needs to be given so quickly, as we have heard, that it would not be appropriate to add an additional process that could delay the subsidy.

In the case of streamlined subsidy schemes, the subsidy or scheme will already be subject to additional scrutiny and transparency through other means. They will be developed by the Government through engagement with experts and other public authorities and, once made, they will be laid before Parliament. I take the point of view of the hon. Member for Aberdeen North, but it is the development beforehand that will provide the scrutiny, input and engagement that will then come to this place.

Amendment 59 would bring streamlined subsidy schemes and minimal financial assistance subsidies into the scope of part 4, chapter 1, and therefore make them subject to referrals to the CMA. Of course, the CMA’s role in this regime is to help public authorities to make assessments against the subsidy control requirements, so that subsidies do not unduly distort competition. It is not necessary for streamlined subsidy schemes or minimal financial assistance subsidies to be referred to the CMA, because these types of subsidy are those that are less likely to distort competition in the first place.

We as a Government intend to use streamlined subsidy schemes for low-risk and non-contentious subsidies, to ease the administrative burden for other public authorities of giving subsidies within those terms. The streamlined schemes are available for public authorities to use, if they choose to, when granting commonly used subsidies. As such, streamlined routes will be carefully designed to minimise distortive effects on competition. Streamlined subsidy schemes will be developed and publicised as part of the subsidy control regime. As I have already said, we will continue to engage with experts, public authorities and subsidy recipients as we prepare for implementation, and that engagement will cover streamlined subsidy schemes. If necessary, the Government will also be able to obtain advice from the experts in the subsidy advice unit in developing the schemes under existing powers. Once made, they will be laid before Parliament, so that Members will be able to examine the schemes for themselves. Finally, I should emphasise that the schemes are still subject to the subsidy control requirements. In the very unlikely event that there are grounds to think that they may not comply with the subsidy control principles, they can be challenged in the Competition Appeal Tribunal.

The subsidy control requirements do not apply to the exemption for minimal financial assistance, simply because small subsidies are not generally capable of causing serious distortions of competition. We have previously heard from the Opposition that MFA exemptions should not exist at all, but that position is fundamentally at odds with the Government’s intention that the new subsidy control regime should enable public authorities to award subsidies more quickly and easily in order to meet local needs and drive economic growth. Although the subsidy control requirements are not burdensome, they would still constitute an unnecessary barrier to giving small, less distortive subsidies, and I would draw the attention of the hon. Member for Sefton Central to the consultation, in which 92% of respondents agreed with the Government’s proposal that subsidies below the threshold of £325,000 special drawing rights, which approximates to £336,000, should be exempted from the subsidy control requirements. We have therefore proposed a threshold of £315,000 in the Bill, to account for exchange rate fluctuations.

I have already made the case for exempting minimal financial assistance from the subsidy control requirements. As I have said, the role of the subsidy advice unit is to advise public authorities in assessing subsidies against the subsidy control requirements. When those requirements do not apply, as in this case, it is illogical for there to be a possibility of referrals to the subsidy advice unit. As such, I believe it is unnecessary for streamlined subsidy schemes and minimal financial assistance to be subject to the referral provisions in part 4 of the Bill. For that reason, I urge the hon. Member for Sefton Central to withdraw the amendment.

Kirsty Blackman (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen North)

I have a quick question for the Minister, which he does not have to answer now. I would appreciate it if he could consider when a streamlined subsidy scheme is being published and set before Parliament. He has made it clear that a number of people will be consulted and that it will be drawn up in parallel with thinking from experts and potential recipients of the subsidy scheme. That is fine, but when we are assessing those streamlined subsidy schemes, it would be helpful for Parliament to have that information, and particularly to have a view from the SAU, or from the CMA more generally, about the streamlined subsidy scheme. Even if the SAU just says, “We think this looks good,” that is at least more information for Parliament. It would give me more comfort to know that the scheme fulfils the principles, or at least that the SAU thinks the scheme fulfils the principles as they are laid out. Therefore, it would be much more reasonable for clause 64(1)(a) to be included if we were given that level of comfort.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Again, we just are not getting from the Minister certainty about the creation of the regime, and this is a common problem all the way through. We are waiting and it is uncertain exactly how this will operate, which makes it very difficult for us to judge whether what we will end up with will provide a degree of scrutiny and transparency in the use of public funds. That applies both to streamlined subsidy schemes and to minimal financial assistance. Although I think the Minister is right about the broad point that smaller payments are unlikely to have the potential to distort in economic terms, they can still be misused. As part of the regime, we are still missing an adequate way to scrutinise, and the hon. Member for Aberdeen North gave some good pointers on how that might be addressed. For those reasons, we will push the amendment to a vote.

Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)

Clause 64 provides for a limited number of exemptions from some or all of the provisions on the referral of subsidies and schemes to the subsidy advice unit. Subsections (1) and (2) exempt from the provisions of chapter 1 of part 4 various subsidies or schemes where either the subsidy control principles, prohibitions and conditions do not apply or it would otherwise be inappropriate for the provisions on referrals to apply. Subsection (3) confers a reserve power on the Secretary of State to exempt subsidies or schemes from the mandatory referral requirements where there are urgent and certain exceptional circumstances that mean that it is in the public interest that the scheme or subsidy can be given without the delay that would result from a referral. The power does not exempt the subsidy or scheme from the subsidy control requirements under part 2 of the Bill. It will still be necessary for the public authority to comply with the duty to apply the principles and other requirements.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

We have debated the amendment and the need for the change to this clause. We have tested the will of the Committee already and will not oppose clause stand part.

Written evidence reported to the House