Nationality and Borders Bill
Public Bill Committee, 21 September 2021.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before we begin, I have a couple of preliminary announcements. I encourage Members to wear masks when they are not speaking, in line with Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. Please give each other and members of staff space when seated and when entering and leaving the room. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members emailed their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Any doubt about that, please ask the Clerk at the end. We must ensure that Hansard gets the notes. Please ensure that all your mobile phones are switched to silent. I remind Members that tea and coffee are not allowed in Committee. If you want to have coffee, you have to go outside the Committee Room.
Today, we will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider the motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and the motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral sessions begin. In view of the time available, I would like to take those matters formally. I have discussed it with the Minister and he agrees. I call him to move the programme motion standing in his name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
On a point of order, Sir Roger. On the initial list of witnesses there were some Home Office officials. On the present list, there are no Home Office officials, which makes it much harder for the Opposition to scrutinise the Bill. We had certain questions that we wished to pose to Home Office officials. I put it on the record that they were initially on the list of witnesses but are no longer there.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
That is not strictly a matter for the Chair; it is a matter for the usual channels. That should be discussed between the Government and Opposition Whips. I had better ask for the relevant parties to do that privately, and to have a conversation with you. It is not something, I am afraid, that I can adjudicate, but you have made your point. The opportunity to discuss it was at the Programming Sub-Committee yesterday, where it should properly have been raised. It was not raised on that occasion.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Further to that point of order, Sir Roger. I may have raised it had the Programming Sub-Committee started at the time it was supposed to start. I arrived yesterday a minute before the start time, and the sub-committee had finished its work. I was going to make the point that Government witnesses had disappeared. We have now lost a couple of hours, and the opportunity for other witnesses to give evidence. I wanted to put it on the record that I was disappointed not to be able to make that point yesterday.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
The sub-committee was quorate when it started yesterday. Members are expected to be there in a timely fashion. I think that I am right in saying that we started on the nose of the time at which we were supposed to start. I take your point, but again it is a matter for the usual channels, not the Chair.
Examination of Witness
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
We are now sitting in public, and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make a declaration of interests in connection with this Bill? Then, as a matter of record, there are no declarations of interest.
Good morning, Mr Featonby. We will now hear oral evidence from Jon Featonby, who is the policy and advocacy manager for refugees and asylum at the British Red Cross. Before calling Mr Charalambous to ask the first question, I remind Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we have to stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. As such, we have just under one hour for this session, until 11.25 am. Mr Featonby, I have introduced you, but could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you very much indeed for taking the trouble and the time to join us this morning.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Mr Featonby, I am going to ask you some questions about the Bill in which the Red Cross has indicated some interest. According to the Government, the main objectives of the Bill are to increase fairness in the asylum system; to better protect those who are supported and in need of asylum; and to deter illegal entry into the UK and break the business model of people smuggling networks. To what extent do you think this Bill achieves those objectives?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q As a follow-up, how do you think a reduction in those dangerous journeys would be better achieved?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q You mentioned clause 10 in your answer. What other problems do you see with clause 10, which treats people differently depending on how they arrive?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Moving on to clause 11, on asylum accommodation, I know in the past the Red Cross has been critical of the Government’s using Napier Barracks to house asylum seekers. What are your thoughts on clause 11 and dispersal, and what lessons can be learned from the problems with Napier Barracks?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I must offer other Members the opportunity to ask questions. I will come back to you if there is time, Mr Charalambous.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q How many clauses in this Bill do you think will have a direct impact on people smugglers?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q You have said, essentially, that you do not think disincentives work. I want to look at one of the Government’s attempts to disincentivise people from using people smugglers: this new scheme of notices of intent. It is in the Bill, but it is also already in the immigration rules as of the start of this year. What impact have those notices had?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q So basically, people are waiting another six months. What impact does that and the other measures in the Bill have on local authorities that are involved in asylum work?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q What does that mean for the cost of the system?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
I know colleagues will have other questions on provisions relating to the asylum system. Does the Red Cross want to speak about the provisions relating to modern slavery or statelessness?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Anything on statelessness, or do you want to leave that to other witnesses?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
There are other Members who wish to ask questions, Mr McDonald. If there is time, I am happy to bring you back in. At present I have Jonathon Gullis, Paul Blomfield and Anne McLaughlin who are waiting to speak. Minister, would you like to come in now or wait?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
I am happy to come in later.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Clause 10 talks about the idea of differential treatment. To people in Stoke-on-Trent this seems absolutely acceptable. Stoke-on-Trent is, by the way, a member of the asylum dispersal scheme and the fifth largest contributor in the UK. Some people have come via safe and legal routes, such as from Afghanistan, whereas others are illegal economic migrants who were already in a safe country in France but who have come over the English Q channel,. Do you not think that saying we are going to treat people differently is going to deter people from making that journey? That will impact the people smugglers, because people will not make the dangerous journey they should not be making in the first place, because they are aware of the consequences when they are caught.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
You mention that some people say that they would still choose to make the journey despite the Bill. Those who are willing to make the journey, of which over 70% are 18 to 30-year-old men on their own, have put thousands of pounds into the hands of people smugglers by their own choice. They are willing to keep funding a smuggling entity in order to try to access the UK, because they seem to think the UK is a better deal than mainland France, Italy or Greece, which are obviously all part of the European Union and have the same protections that the UK does—the European convention on human rights and such. Ultimately, does that not show that the system is broken and the legislation is needed? We do need to make sure that illegal economic migrants crossing the channel are treated differently from people from Afghanistan, for example, who have taken the safe and legal route we provided through Operation Pitting.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Q The issue is that we have people illegally entering the country in record numbers via the English channel. They are illegal economic migrants, because they are able to claim refuge in a safe place, such as France. France is not a war-torn country; they are safe over there. Ultimately, this is putting huge pressure on cities such as Stoke-on-Trent that step up to the plate. I hope local authorities in places like Scotland step up to the plate; I know that Glasgow does its bit, but sadly others do not. I hope to see other places take part in the asylum dispersal scheme. More importantly, you talk about the pressure on local authorities that clause 10 might impose. We have an issue with housing in Stoke-on-Trent, which has lower than average house prices and is taken advantage of because of that. Stoke-on-Trent has lodged to pause its involvement in the asylum dispersal scheme until other areas step up.
Does it not make sense that we would provide good-quality accommodation? I think Napier Barracks was fantastic accommodation. It provided safety and shelter, had hot running water and sanitation, and provided yoga as well. We have Napier Barracks and others like it that we can use. What do you think about doing what Denmark is doing, which I think is a fantastic idea, and taking people to another country, such as Rwanda, and processing them outside the United Kingdom? That will also help to deter people from making these dangerous journeys.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
That firing—
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Order. Mr Gullis, this is an opportunity to ask questions not to make speeches. I have to accommodate as many Members as possible. If there is time, I will come back to you later.
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Red Cross would view itself as a close partner of the Home Office and in a trusted relationship to deliver on the ambitions of whatever Government are in power in relation to asylum. In that context, I guess that you are regularly consulted by and engage with the Home Office on issues of policy. TheQ thinking behind the Bill is clearly predicated on the assumption that there will be a significant opportunity to develop safe and legal routes into the UK. Have you had any discussion with the Home Office about the shape of those future routes?
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q But from your discussions, you have had no sense of what schemes the Home Office might have in mind beyond that? I ask that because it is a fairly fundamental issue on which the Bill is predicated.
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q May I ask one further question on a different point? The Bill introduces a new element to the asylum system in the consideration of late evidence, and it requires a reduction in the weight of evidence that is submitted late and indeed the credibility of applicants who give it. Do you see any potential difficulties with that and, if so, could you share those with us?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I will call Ms McLaughlin, then the Minister, and then we will see how we are doing for time.
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
The British Red Cross is part of the International Red Cross, so perhaps it has a clearer picture of the scale of the global crisis that is leading to the displacement of people. The Bill is apparently partly a response to the number of people seeking asylum and refugees that the UK is taking. You said a moment ago that we should be able to take the number we have at the moment. The UK Government’s argument is that we are taking proportionately higher than most other countries. Is that correct? Are the Government right to be concerned enough about the proportionally higher numbers that the UK is taking to bring in this legislationQ ?
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
Q That is interesting. If I have time for one more question, I want to mention the concerns that have been raised about aspects of the Bill that are not compliant with some of the UK’s international obligations—the refugee convention is one, but there are many of them. There is a huge debate; one commentator says, “It doesn’t comply,” and the Government say, “Yes, it does comply.” Do you share those concerns? If so, is it possible to amend the Bill so that the UK is not defying international obligations?
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
That is really helpful. Thank you.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I will now call the Minister. Mr Anderson, if there is time after we hear from the Minister, we will try to fit you in.
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q Thank you, Sir Roger. Thank you for coming to give evidence, Mr Featonby. I welcome the support you have expressed for the principle of the Afghan scheme. Of course, this Government are absolutely committed to the principle of establishing safe and legal routes. You have been asked several times about the issue of channel crossings, and I feel that you have glossed over that slightly in your answers. Do you think that it is a priority? How would you go about tackling that challenge?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q What assessment have you made of those evil criminal gangs and the associated criminality? You have referred to the life sentences for people smugglers. What more would you propose doing to break their business model?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q On modern slavery, I recognise that one of the challenges to modern slavery prosecutions is maintaining victim engagement throughout the criminal justice process. In your view, what are the key barriers for victims?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q I will ask one more quick question, so that hopefully my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West can come in. In your view, will the new legal aid provision in relation to the one-stop process encourage earlier referrals into the national referral mechanism?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you. This will have to be one final question from Mr Anderson and one final answer.
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
I have been listening today in keen trepidation of your answers. When sitting through several of these Bill Committees, we always find people—we will hear it today—who say it goes too far or it is not enough. I represent Wolverhampton, which has certainly stepped up to the plate and done its bit over the last few years. I have heard what you have said from your point of view about the gaps in the Bill. What positives can I take back to Wolverhampton City Council that the Bill will help to alleviate pressuresQ ?
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
Q Do you not believe it will alleviate any of the pressures that the council will face?
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
Thank you.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I am afraid that brings us effectively to the end of the time allocated for this morning’s sitting. Mr Featonby, the Committee is indebted to you. Thank you very much for joining us. The Committee will meet again this afternoon. The doors will be locked, so Members may leave papers in the room if they wish to do so. You will continue to take oral evidence this afternoon. Please leave promptly and observe social distancing as you go out the exit door.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I remind Members about the public health guidance, and that electronic devices should be switched to silent.
We will now hear oral evidence from Lucy Moreton, the professional officer at the Immigration Services Union, and Zoe Gardner, policy adviser at the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants. Lucy is appearing in person and has just arrived, and Zoe is appearing virtually. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee agreed. For this session, we have until 2.45 pm.
Examination of Witnesses
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Q 23 I ask the witnesses to please introduce themselves.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
The premise of the Bill, according to the Government, is to fix the broken asylum system. In your opinion, will the Bill do that? If not, what needs to happen to fix the system?Q
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Zoe, do you have a response to that?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Lucy, according to a recent report there are 399 asylum claims in the system that have taken 10 years and still not been processed. Is that more than just a resourcing issue?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Clause 10 treats people differently based on how they arrive. If you arrive via regular routes, you are given protection. Lucy and Zoe, do you think that achieves the aims of the Bill?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Thank you. I will let other Members ask questions now. If there is time, I would like to ask some more later.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I call Stuart McDonald.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Thank you for your evidence so far. Earlier we heard from Jon Featonby of the Red Cross that there was only one clause in the Bill that would directly impact smugglers themselves, by increasing possible sentences. You have gone further, saying that, on the whole, those gangs would celebrate the Bill passing through Parliament. Why do you go that far?Q
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q You have said that you think the policy of trying to disincentivise people from making these crossings is not going to work and that, on the other hand, some of the measures used to pursue that disincentive effect, such as the notices of intent, will have a pretty awful impact on those affected by them. Can you say more about some of the other disincentives? You have mentioned the notices of intent, but obviously there is criminalisation and measures around no recourse to public funds and family reunion. How will those impact on individuals and the local authorities that are trying to support them?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Lucy Moreton, do you want to pick up on the issue of additional work that this will create for the Home Office, in terms of having to revisit asylum applications every 30 months, even though someone has been recognised as a refugee, and dealing with applications to lift no recourse to public funds conditions and so on? Also, on another subject: do you think pushbacks at sea are more about headline grabbing than worthwhile legislation?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Thank you.
Paul Howell (Conservative, Sedgefield)
I want to turn to your last point before I come to the one that I was going to make. You say that the people in the boats would be scared of Border Force because of what has been said. We were told by the Red Cross earlier that the people getting into boats were not informed about what was going on or what sort of law applied. How would they have a perception that the law had changed and that they were going to be pushed back, given that, as the Red Cross said earlierQ , they would not have any perception of what laws applied to them?
Paul Howell (Conservative, Sedgefield)
Q It just seems a conflict to me that, on the one hand, the witnesses earlier were saying that migrants did not have information, and now you are saying that they do have information.
Paul Howell (Conservative, Sedgefield)
Q I get that, but I think it is in both directions as well.
I will come to the point I was going to make. The number of cases and the backlog are increasing at a faster rate than the number of applications. I would like to try to understand whether that is purely resource—you have indicated there are resource concerns anyway—or whether there are ways in which the Bill could be written so that it was easier to make decisions and the decisions could be clearer and swifter, rather than having too many complexities, which results in longer times before you get a first decision. Is it the Bill? Is it the resources? Is it a combination thereof?
Paul Howell (Conservative, Sedgefield)
Q Do you think the Bill, as written, helps that process?
Paul Howell (Conservative, Sedgefield)
Q Does Zoe want to add to that?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I do not want to limit anybody’s questions, but there are quite a few people who would like to ask questions. Jonathan Gullis.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Thank you, Ms McDonagh.Q
I am a bit perplexed. On the one hand, I am hearing that the system is broken; on the other, I am hearing that ultimately this is not going to be good enough. Lucy, on the pushbacks—I think the pushbacks are something that our commanders on those vessels need support and top cover from—you have said that that is not a deterrent, even though you have said that people will be scared of it. We have talked about the fact that people will not be getting access to housing in the legislation, at clause 11—we will use centres such as Napier barracks—which I think is brilliant and is also about the use of public resources; that will not deter. In Stoke-on-Trent they are livid at seeing illegal economic migrants—the ones coming over the Channel at the moment—paying thousands of pounds into the hands—
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Mr Gullis, I do not want to stop you, but it would be great if there could be a question, so that your colleagues can also ask questions.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
There will be. Illegal economic migrants put thousands of pounds into the hands of people smugglers. Does that not show that these people are not genuine refugees or asylum seekers, like those we have seen from Afghanistan and Syria, who we have brought through safe and legal routes?
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Q Which is why the idea in clause 11 or clause 10 that in our United Kingdom we are going to potentially process people offshore, as with Denmark, is a positive and will help deter. If people know they are going to spend all that money and not even end up in the United Kingdom, that is a positive with the legislation.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Q Zoe?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Ms Gardner, you have put your case extremely well and I do not want to inhibit what you want to say, but I do want to see whether more Members can ask questions.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Q I have one short question. If these people in Calais are legitimate refugees, why are they not claiming asylum in France, Italy, Spain or Greece? Why do they need to come to the United Kingdom?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Ms Gardner, you are making your case really well but I am trying to get a couple more people in before we go to the Minister, if that is okay, so I apologise. Paul Blomfield.
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Both witnesses have expressed concerns that the Bill’s objectives will not be achieved by the measures that it includes. The Home Office itself goes further in its own impact assessment, sayingQ
“There is a risk that increased security and deterrence could encourage these cohorts to attempt riskier means of entering the UK.”
Could you share your views on that with us––first, Lucy?
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Does Zoe have anything to add to that?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Anne and Stuart, you have about a minute to ask your questions and to get some answers before I bring in the Minister.
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
I had a question for Lucy, which she has partly answered, so I will check with her offline—I thank her for partly answering it. I know that the JCWI has concerns about statelessness, so perhaps Zoe will say something about that. Also, this morning, we talked about the Bill being at odds with our international obligations, so will you comment on the fears that the British Red Cross expressed this morning, that if we do this—you referred to it yourself—there could be a domino effect? If we start to say, “Not on our doorstep”, France could say the same and so, even more worryingly, could countries where most people end up, such as the countries that border Afghanistan, where theQ hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North said the genuine refugees come from. We have asked countries to keep their borders open, but what if they start to say, “No, we’ll not keep our borders open if the UK isn’t going to or France isn’t.” There will be that domino effect, which is worrying.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Finally, Stuart.
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
Zoe, I am trying to understand one of the points that you made earlier and your example of the young gentleman from Syria who came over here. You said that, under the legislation, even if he is sent out of the country, he will try to get back in, regardless of the legislation, even though he knows the system. Is that solely because he has family members here, or because, no matter what legislation we put in place, people will still—even when they know the system—try to come back in? Will you expand on that, please?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Okay, thank you, Zoe. I will bring in the Minister at this point.
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q Thank you, Ms McDonagh. I have one question for Ms Gardner. One of the real focuses of the work of your organisation is around welfare. What assessment do you make of our proposals to streamline the judicial process to process cases more quickly and, of course, remove people who have no right to be here more quickly? What do you make of that?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Apologies, but that brings us to the end of the time allotted to ask questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee. Many questions were asked and our witnesses gave evidence that Members wanted to listen to.
Examination of Witness
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear oral evidence from Dave Kirby, the assistant chief constable of Derbyshire police. Dave is joining us virtually. We have until 3.15 pm. Will the witness please introduce himself for the record?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Stuart Anderson will ask the first question.
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
Q Could you give us your opinion of what the legislation will do to help you in your role when you deal with illegal immigrants?
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
Yes.
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
Q We have heard from previous witnesses that the only people who would benefit from the Bill are the people smugglers. Is that your view?
Stuart Anderson (Conservative, Wolverhampton South West)
Thank you.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Mr Kirby, I want to ask about the issue you raised of people raising a defence and there being a delay. The national referral mechanism is meant to make decisions quite speedily, nut it is not doing that. Do you agree that if the NRM were to make decisions more quickly, that would stop this practice?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q What international co-operation do you have with Europol or countries such as Albania in trying to stop international gangs trafficking people in the first place?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Final question from me. Do you not think it is right that somebody who claims to be a victim of trafficking should be treated as a victim and that if they choose to disclose something later, that should not count against them?
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
Q Good afternoon. I will start by saying that none of us here can possibly understand how complex the work is that you and your colleagues do. I am trying to understand some of it. I know that recently you said that you have spotted a trend of people who were arrested in drug busts claiming to be victims of slavery when you did not believe that to be the case. I think that, as a result of those concerns, the Home Secretary is overseeing plans to roll out a new public order definition that will allow police forces to refuse NRM protection to those committing serious crimes.
That turns the presumption of innocent until proven guilty on its head. Do you think that that is the most helpful way to go forward and, if so, are there other circumstances in which we should not offer support to people because we do not believe them, before they have had the opportunity to prove otherwise? If you do not think that it is helpful, how would you amend the legislation to be more helpful, while recognising that we do not know whether people are victims of slavery at the point at which they are arrested?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q Clearly it is critical that our resources are focused on genuine victims of modern slavery. Are you able to share any examples or concerns that you have about individuals or groups taking opportunities to misuse the national referral mechanism by falsely claiming to be victims?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Building on that, what, in your experience, is the impact of sequential claims and referrals, and how will the measures in the Bill help to ensure more effective process?Q
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Just sequential claims and referrals to the mechanism.Q
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
It is about issues around repeat claims and those sorts of difficulties that we know exist.Q
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q I am grateful for that thorough answer. One final question: what assessment have you made of wider criminality resulting from the proceeds of criminal gangs organising dangerous crossings?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q What assessment, if any, have you made of wider criminality resulting from the proceeds of criminal gangs bringing people across the channel?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Thank you, that is very helpful.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q I have some follow-up questions to that. You mentioned the Balkan states, in particular Albania and Lithuania. Is it generally the Balkan states which are involved in the criminal gangs you have come across?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q On the issue of how often the slave defence is being used, how much of a problem do you see it as being? Does it happen all the time, not at all, by many people, or a few?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
How often is it occurring? How much of a problem do you see it as being?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q You mentioned that when you find these criminal gangs, you come across many victims as well. How do you differentiate between the two?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Is there not a danger, with some of the clauses, that you will also catch genuine victims of trafficking if they do not disclose something early on?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q But the Bill does not distinguish between the genuine victims and those who are trying to evade the system.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Thank you.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions, I thank our witness for his evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Examination of witnesses
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear oral evidence from Councillor Roger Gough, from Kent County Council, who is joining us virtually, and Councillor Rachael Robathan, from Westminster City Council, who is here in person. We have until 4pm. Would the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q I thank both witnesses for coming today to give evidence. I just wonder about your experience of the pressures of having to look after asylum seekers in your respective authorities. I know that it will be different for each of you but what pressures have your councils been under?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q I have a follow-up question for you, Councillor Gough. You mentioned the issue around children. The adults, apart from at Napier Barracks, are dispersed: they come in, get processed and are taken to another part of the country. In relation to the children, do you get any additional resources from the Government to deal with the problem? Is it enough or do you need more resources to deal with the issues that you face?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Councillor Robathan, you mentioned the pressure of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children on Westminster City Council’s resources. Can you give me an idea of those pressures and whether you have had additional support to deal with that from the Government?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q On dispersal and asylum accommodation elsewhere, many councils, including those of many of the Members sitting around the table here, take asylum seekers and they are resettled in those council areas, but some do not. Do you think that all councils should have to take their fair share?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Councillor Gough, what is your view?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q I have one final question for Councillor Gough. You mentioned Napier Barracks in Kent. The Government announced that they want to extend the period of time that they are using Napier Barracks for asylum accommodation. I just wondered what your thoughts were on that, and how it has gone down locally.
Paul Howell (Conservative, Sedgefield)
Q Can we change the direction slightly? We have heard lots about the stresses that illegal immigration is putting on local councils. Looking at the Bill as it stands, can you tell me whether there are things in there that help the situation for you, and are there things that you would like to have seen in there—things that would have helped if they had been put in? I am trying to see what difference the Bill would actually make to your life.
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q First, I have a very Kent-specific question. You will appreciate that I am new in role, but for the benefit of the Committee, could you set out what pressures Kent County Council currently faces as a result of the number of people crossing the channel?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q In terms of the broader measures that we are seeking to introduce in the Bill, how pressing do residents in your communities think they are?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q To touch on age assessments again—I know that you have commented briefly on those—there are almost three elements to my question, and I would be delighted to hear from both of you on this. What pressures do age assessments place on your local authority in resource terms? What safeguarding risks do you think exist as a result of adults successfully posing as children? How many UASCs who approach you for support do you have doubts about in relation to their claimed age?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q I noted the broad support for the national age assessment board approach that we are proposing to try to deal with some of this, but what impact do you believe the current judicial review-based processes for settling disputes of age assessments have on your organisation? I am conscious, as a former councillor, that it is not always just financial; it is also around officer time in particular, and the impact on services more generally. What would you say about that?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q I thank the witnesses for their evidence so far. I have a couple of follow-up questions on age assessments. You have spoken about the safeguarding issues that arise if somebody who is an adult finds themselves in a space for children, but of course the opposite can also happen; there are huge safeguarding issues if somebody aged 15 or 16 ends up being put in a hotel with adults or dispersed to some other part of the United Kingdom with limited supervision. It is in all our interests to get that absolutely right. Would it make any difference, for example, if we took the pressure off these decisions—I am thinking slightly off the top of my head—by continuing UASC leave to a higher age, say 20 or 21?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
It just strikes me that a lot of the pressure around these decisions, and perhaps even a degree of cynicism about where a number of age claims fall, arises from the fact that UASC leave, as I understand it, takes young people up to 17 and a half. If UASC leave carried on until 19, 20 or 21 there would be much less pressure, or motivation—if you are cynical about it—to make a claim that you were 15, 16 or 17 than there is now. Would that be a different way to try to go about fixing this?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Okay, I will give that some further thought.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Safeguarding obviously does work both ways. Ultimately it is just imperative that we get this right. I think other local authorities have expressed some concern about this national body possibly taking their decision-making power away from them. Nobody would object to anything that drives up standards and helps to make sure we get these decisions right, but do you have any sympathy with local authorities that say, “Ultimately, it is our social workers who will implement this decision. It should be them who make the decision in the first place”?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
We will have to see what the placeholder clauses in the Bill are replaced with, but thank you both very much.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no more questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witness
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear evidence from Tony Smith, from Fortinus Global Ltd, who is joining us virtually. We have until 4.30 pm. Could the witness please introduce himself for the record?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Mr Smith, thank you very much for agreeing to give evidence today. We very much welcome your insights, with your many years of experience. The premise of the Bill is to fix the broken asylum system. You have mentioned your 40 years of experience, and some of that was as an immigration caseworker, I understand. I just wondered what your ideas were about what needs to be fixed to fix the broken asylum system and whether you think the Bill achieves that.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q You mentioned people coming in via lorries. Clearly, that is still going on. It is not just the channel crossings that are the issue; it is also people who would be coming in via that route.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q You mentioned the juxtaposed controls from 2001. That was done in co-operation with France, but clearly things seem to be very different now. I just wondered what your take was on the need for international co-operation to resolve the issue of illegal migration.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q On the Border Force issue, what the Bill suggests doing is pushbacks, which many people would agree would be a dangerous activity. What are your thoughts about pushbacks and how that sits with maritime law?
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
Q Good afternoon. You have already answered some of what I was planning to ask you about. I read recently that you said the preservation of life should be the UK’s top priority. You have repeated that today, so I do not need to ask you the question about whether you support the pushing back of children, men and women who arrive in boats, because you clearly do not.
You talked about Australia, which I was going to bring up. I am sure I read recently that Australia also criminalised those who rescued people who were seeking asylum and arriving by boat, but made the exception that if the vessel was not seaworthy they would not be criminalised. I think that is what you referred to when you talked about the traffickers putting holes in the boats so that they became dangerous. That sort of thing assists traffickers now that they know what to do. First, would you caution the UK against making that caveat and perhaps urge it to drop the pushback thing altogether? Would you caution against the criminalisation of people who rescue people at sea?
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
Q My second and final question is on international relations. The UK lags behind other European countries in terms of numbers. The British Red Cross said that we were the 17th highest in terms of the number of people that we took in. The Bill basically says to the French, among others, “Not in my backyard—your problem”. What does that do to international relations and what could the UK Government do? I accept what you say about other Governments having to come into these bilateral agreements, but what could the UK Government do to reach out to other countries in Europe to try to work on this together?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q Is it reasonable to think, based on your many years of experience, that if we do nothing—if we just stand back from the challenge of illegal crossings—the number of crossings will increase and crossing will become even less safe? Do you think that the principle of deterrence is important in all this?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q Notwithstanding what you have already said about collaboration between us and the French to tackle this, what assessment have you made of the work that is already in train to try to improve the situation? Do you think it has improved the situation somewhat?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q Mindful of the breadth of your professional experience in previous roles, how crucial do you think the streamlining of the processing of applications is to tackling some of these challenges?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We only have a few minutes, so I call Jonathan Gullis.
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Q Thank you, Ms McDonagh. We are really grateful to hear that more needs to be happening with the French, and recent events seem to be improving matters. Mr Smith, why do you believe that people are choosing to come to the United Kingdom rather than claiming asylum in France, Greece and other parts of the European Union?
Jonathan Gullis (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent North)
Q I can certainly assure you that in Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke we are keen to see more enforcement, because people are getting sick to death of the boats that are constantly landing on the English shore. My final question is this. We know that out of the illegal economic migrants crossing the English channel, 70% of those who are landing are males aged between 18 and 35. Why is this particular group so attracted? Why are they travelling alone in this instance?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Mr Smith, if you could hold your answer to that question, I am going to try to bring in Paul Howell as well.
Paul Howell (Conservative, Sedgefield)
Q Thank you, Chair. This question is similar to one that I asked a previous witness. Mr Smith, what aspects of the Bill would you particularly welcome, and what do you feel needs to be more robust, or indeed less? Could you cover that at the same time?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Thank you, Mr Smith. As ever, it is very interesting to hear from you. I have two quick questions. I am slightly confused because on one hand, you speak about the necessity of deterrence, but the way you want to go about deterring people from making the crossings is through removals to France. That is exactly what we have lost because of Brexit and the end of the Dublin regulations at the start of the year, and this Bill does not bring us any closer to removals to France. On the other hand, you think that criminalisation is not the right way to go, but that is what is in the Bill; it criminalises people who make those crossings. Although I understand your logic, I do not understand how that takes you to supporting this Bill.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
Sorry, Stuart, but I am going to break in here so that we can get an answer. Mr Smith, you have 30 seconds.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the allotted time for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witness on behalf of the Committee and we move on to our next witness.
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
We will now hear oral evidence from Rob Jones, director of threat leadership at the National Crime Agency. What a great job title. We have until 5.15 pm. Will the witness please introduce himself for the record?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q I would like ask you some questions about the work of the National Crime Agency in breaking the crime gangs that are smuggling people into the country. Clearly, a lot of those gangs operate internationally. What is your experience around working internationally to try and break those gangs?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Could you elaborate a bit? How do you actually break the gangs? How do you stop them operating?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Some of the people who have been trafficked do not come in across the channel in small boats. What steps are you taking to tackle people who are trafficked, either for sexual exploitation or modern-day slavery?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q You have just mentioned victims, and obviously the NCA and most police enforcement operate on intelligence. Some of that intelligence comes from people who have been victims or who are perpetrators. One thing that concerns me about the Bill is the disclosure of information straight away. I wondered what your experience was of that.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Would that be because of threats back home, or something else?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q So people who are trafficked do not come across the channel in boats, but by some other route—on the back of a lorry, for instance?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Going back to the question of victims who might not disclose the information early on, one thing the Bill does is treat them differently if they do not disclose that information for some reason—you have given some examples. Again, that might make them less likely to co-operate with the authorities. Do you think that that will be a problem in getting more information to detect the real people behind organised crime?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Is that more investment in first responders and the referral to the NRM?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q Going back to small boats, clearly if we are working with the French authorities to disrupt the people behind smuggling, it does not seem to be going so well. How could we work better with the French to try to stop that?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q You also mentioned some other countries, such as Belgium, Germany and Turkey. Are you working closely with them?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q I heard your answer in relation to modern slavery, but in terms of wider criminality and what you are seeing on the ground, what impact do you think the proceeds of small boat crossings are having on criminal gangs?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q I agree with you very much on the penalty. It would seem obvious to me that closing down that line of revenue for these criminal gangs is a sensible and obvious thing to do. One other area in relation to penalties in the Bill is the issue of returning foreign national offenders. At the moment, I think the penalty is six months. We are proposing to increase that penalty to five years. How valuable do you think that will be in terms of some of the issues with which no doubt you end up grappling, with foreign national offenders returning to this country and then carrying out further crimes?
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q I am interested, on a broader level, in what challenges you think our country faces from organised immigration crime more generally.
Tom Pursglove (Conservative, Corby)
Q Presumably trying to focus our approach on safe and legal routes is also very helpful from a national security perspective.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Thank you for your evidence, Mr Jones. I do not think that anyone would beg to differ on the need to deter and disrupt the smuggling gangs and to support safe legal routes; the issue is much more about where we draw the line in trying to deter people who use those gangs, whether it is appropriate to criminalise them, and so on. May I ask you about another challenge on which I think you have given evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee: the use of social media companies and encryption to try to organise these sailings, and so on? Back then, I think you indicated that there was a lack of co-operation from a lot of the social media companies, which was posing a lot of challenges. Has there been any progress in that regard?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Are both these things that you continue to pursue solutions to through agreement, or has the time come for there to be regulation, perhaps through the Online Safety Bill or something else?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Finally, are there any other barriers that you would highlight, in terms of how we go about trying to tackle the smuggling gangs? Is it resources? Is it co-operation? Over the last four, five or six years that I have been in this place, a number of Ministers have said, “We’re doing a, b and c, and this will solve the issue, or at least drive it down,” yet here we are, and records continue to be set.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Sure. I would challenge very little of that. The issue we have on this side of the fence is that a lot of the evidence is that some of the deterrents in the Bill, which are aimed not at smugglers but at people using them, will not work and are, in themselves, objectionable from the point of view that if you put someone in prison, they could be an Afghan interpreter who is fleeing because of what happened yesterday. We draw the line there.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Sure, but our concern is that that is exactly what the Bill does, and obviously we will hear evidence from UNHCR and various others who have that concern as well. Thank you for your evidence.
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q Clearly, we are all concerned and admire your commitment to stopping these dangerous crossings and the risks at which they put people. Our issue as a Committee is to determine whether the measures in the Bill are the best way to achieve that objective.
You talked about the factors that had led smuggling gangs and others to move from lorry and train crossings to boat crossings. We heard from witnesses earlier that we blocked off the opportunity to board lorries through the fortifications around terminals, which was one of the factors that pushed people to the more desperate route of boats. The Home Office’s own impact assessment of the Bill says that there is a serious risk that these measures could encourage people to attempt even riskier routes. Do you think that is a factor we should bear in mind?
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q I fully accept the risk of the channel. Your general conclusion is that really we need to more to tackle these problems upstream, I think you said, and the more that we can do to invest in safe and legal routes to avoid desperation, the better, from your point of view.
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
Q You have said a number of times that having safe and legal routes is one of the things that will reduce what some people refer to as the pull factor. I am going to dispute the idea of the pull factor, because of a report a few years back by the Refugee Council that demonstrated that the vast majority of people making their way to Britain had no clue what lay ahead. They just had some idea that Britain would welcome them. I wonder if one of the things we could do is show them clips of Conservative MPs talking about what kind of welcome they will get. Maybe that would reduce the pull factor. Anyway, that was not my question. Are you surprised that there is nothing in this legislation about safe and legal routes? There is nothing about increasing or improving them.
Anne McLaughlin (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North East)
Q You talked about the concurrent effort needed. I suppose you do not want to agree, but I am going to ask you anyway. Do you agree that it would be better if, at the same time as tackling the small boat crossings, we were doing something as substantive as this legislation on beefing up the safe and legal routes throughout world?
Siobhain McDonagh (Labour, Mitcham and Morden)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witness for his evidence.