Elections Bill
Public Bill Committee, 15 September 2021.
(Morning)
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. In line with current Government guidance and the House of Commons Commission’s decision, I encourage Members to wear masks when not speaking. Please give each other and members of staff space when seated and when entering and leaving the room. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members could email their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch off electronic devices or put them on silent mode. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take those matters formally. I call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in her name, which was discussed on Monday by the programming sub-committee for the Bill.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room, and will be circulated to Members by email.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
We are now sitting in public. Do any Members wish to make a declaration of interest in connection with the Bill? No.
Examination of Witnesses
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Q We will now hear evidence from Richard Mawrey QC of Henderson Chambers and Lord Pickles. Before calling the first Member to ask the first question, I remind hon. Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion. This session will end at 10.25 am. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Thank you. Minister, would you like to ask the first question?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q I would. First, may I welcome our witnesses? It is an absolute pleasure to have you here. You begin our day with the highest quality.
Richard, you highlighted in your judgment on Tower Hamlets and elsewhere how we see interlocking types of fraud that all together create broad criminality. Would you be able to talk us through the extent of that?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Across a selection of your cases—Tower Hamlets, Birmingham, and Slough—we see the range of corrupt practices, also known as crimes or elections fraud, including, as you say, postal voting practices, proxy voting practices and personation, notably, in Slough.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you. Two questions, if I may: would you agree that, where one of those avenues may be cut off by the law, criminals might turn to others? Criminals, by nature, are able to use a range of techniques, and, naturally, wish to do so. Secondly, may I ask for your assessment of who the victims of such crimes are? Where does the harm fall?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Eric, you then had the opportunity to follow up on Richard’s work and to say what ought to be done about it. Is it still your view that something ought to be done about all of those things?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Richard, can I start with you and the Tower Hamlets examples that you have already outlined? Thank you for that. You said that in Tower Hamlets there was a wide range of different types of electoral fraud that was used to try to manipulate. I was particularly struck by what you said about public funds being diverted for political advantage. Does anything in the Bill prevent public funds being diverted for political influenceQ ?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Turning to postal votes, this legislation obviously makes some minor changes to the way in which postal votes are handled, in terms of limiting the number of postal votes that an elector may hand in at a polling station on the day, but there is nothing to prevent postal votes being posted in a post box. So I just wonderer whether you consider that the legislation might not be effective in reducing postal votes, which I think you said was the greatest weakness in the system.Q
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q I wanted to pick up on the example given of Birmingham, which was quite a long time ago. The laws around postal votes and electoral registration have changed since, and a national insurance number is now required, or an electoral registration form with a date of birth and a signature on the postal vote return slip. I wonder whether the example given, of a street where people were registered and postal votes applied for, could happen under the existing law today and the changes that have been made.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q If I understand it correctly, Richard, in most cases it would require the consent of everyone involved. The people registered at an address that they were not actually living at would need to provide their national insurance numbers—they would have to be in on it. That makes it harder to do on a bigger scale, which feeds into your point that the smaller electorates of local government make it easier to manipulate the outcomes than in a parliamentary election. Given that, does it therefore follow that increasing the turnout at an election makes it harder to commit electoral fraud, so a higher turnout is a good mitigating factor against electoral fraud and a good weapon to combat it?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q My final question is about the resources of local government, because under this legislation, local government will be asked to do more because of the requirement to issue free voter ID cards. Our electoral returning officers are quite stretched already, and the Association of Election Administrators has already made representations about the pressure on electoral registration officers. In terms of their ability to spot potential fraud, given the increase in workload and the cuts to local government, do you have concerns about the resources of local government to be able to do their jobs, frankly?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
I have a long list of Members who want to come in, so I ask Members to keep their questions short, and witnesses to shorten their answers. I will endeavour to get everyone in.
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
I am seeking a comment on what I am about to read to you. I apologise to the Committee that what I am about to read is exceptionally offensive and, frankly, quite evil. This relates to the Batley and Spen by-election. This is something that happened in June of this year. What I am about to read to you we were not able to trace, no matter how hard we tried, but I seek your comments on it. This relates to your comment on religious pressure:Q
“Brothers & Sisters of Batley & Heckmondwike I am publicly calling out members of our communities who we have supported in the past: Shabbir Pandor, Ghulam Maniyar, Dr Rajpura and others who have shamelessly brought the Labour Candidate (who is openly Lesbian) to the ‘Masjids’ (the house of Allah) for votes. Would Allah be happy with their actions considering he destroyed the people of Lut A.S which is clearly referenced in the Holy Quran as a lesson for mankind? We are already powerless in schools against forced LGBT education and the effect it is having on our children. Must people from our community promote this agenda too? Mr Maniyar who is part of the Muslim burial committee is trying to land his daughter Fazila the job she previously had under the late Jo Cox. I ask him ‘Would you like to be buried with this on your conscience? You are promoting an MP that could potentially harm the Imaan of our children.’ This is not an endorsement of another party or candidate. I want you all as a community to understand that the blind loyalty to the Labour Party of these people for selfish gains be it ‘peerages’ or ‘better job roles’ is being asked FROM US at a cost of the corruption of our future generations. (PLS SHARE THE TRUTH SO PPL MAY KNOW)”.
I apologise for how offensive that was, but I think it is important to the Committee. That was in June of this year, in the parliamentary by-election. I seek your comments on what I have just read.
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
I have a couple of questions, directed to both of you, but I will start with Lord Pickles. You said that there have been some shocking examples of postal vote fraud, and you gave some examples. However, you said that it is not endemic in the system but that the system is vulnerable. Do you think that, with the system being vulnerable, we are missing an opportunity to tighten up on postal vote fraud in the Bill? It does not seem to be a huge part of the Bill. Given what you have said, the Bill seems to be almost looking in the wrong places to tighten up on fraud. Where could we tighten up more on the postal vote fraud that you say is not endemic but to which the system is vulnerable?Q
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
The problem that you have both identified is around postal voting, and the examples of personation that you have given have been pretty few and far between. It is fair to say from what you have said that where the system is most vulnerable and weak is around postal voting.Q
Richard, you were talking about a particular culture that existed in Tower Hamlets and manipulation by religious means. You said yourself that that was an extreme case. The Tower Hamlets example has been used in previous debates to claim that voter ID cards are absolutely necessary. In your opinion, how would voter ID cards at polling stations have changed what you witnessed at Tower Hamlets?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
That is a purely subjective view. The fact that you did not recommend photo ID in your report and it is now being introduced would suggest that it is a solution seeking a problemQ .
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Sorry, Lord Pickles, can I interrupt? Are you seriously suggesting that the situation in the United Kingdom in 2021 bears any similarity to the situation in Northern Ireland in the 1980s and 1990s?Q
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Well, you say we are moving to the Northern Ireland system. The Northern Ireland system was introduced for very specific reasons. Are you saying we should move to the Northern Ireland system because there are similarities between what is happening here in 2021 and what was happening in Northern Ireland in the 1980s and 1990s?
Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)
I wanted to pick up on your point about policing, Mr Mawrey. You have been very critical, in both your judgments and your previous evidence to Parliament, of the police and their determination not to get involved. My question is twofold. What does that imply about how many cases have not been brought that perhaps ought to have been? Does the Bill empower the police, and would you expect them to be more willing to be involved in future?Q
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
I am sorry; I have to come in there. We have one minute left, so we can have a very short question and answer.
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
I have a very short question. To clarify for the record, what was the proportion of postal vote fraud, as opposed to in-person, polling station fraud, in Tower Hamlets and Birmingham? I think you have said that all the fraud in Birmingham was postal votes, for example. Is that correct? What was the proportion in Tower Hamlets?Q
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q Do you have the number of postal votes?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Have the elections in Birmingham and Tower Hamlets—
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our witnesses for their evidence.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
For this panel we have until 11.25 am. I will bring in Cat Smith first and then the Minister, but please take no more than 10 minutes each, in order to leave time for Back Benchers.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Thank you, Ms Rees. My first question is to the witnesses from local government. What will be the practical and cost implications for electoral administrators and councils of implementing the Bill’s voter ID proposals? Also, what pressure will there be on electoral administrators as a result of having to cope with two different categories of EU citizens when it comes to voting rights—whether they are a qualifying EU citizen? Do you anticipate any difficulties in managing that, and what kinds of resources do you expect to have to increase or bring in to meet those difficulties, as well as the requirements to administer free ID cards?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q If I may follow up on that, my question to you, Gareth, was going to be slightly different. It is on the policing of electoral fraud, particularly in relation to overseas voters. With regard to overseas voters making political donations that are unlawful, or voter fraud, what powers does the UK have to detect infringements and prosecute?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q I welcome all three witnesses. I have one question for each. Councillor Golds, thank you for giving us your time today. Can you tell us a little about the experience on the ground of how people might have been victims of electoral fraud in Tower Hamlets, and perhaps how difficult it can be for some of those stories to come forward?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q As a brief follow-up, could you please explain what types of fraud people may have encountered? Be specific; is it personation, postal votes or other types?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much indeed. I have a brief question for both Gillian and Assistant Chief Constable Cann. Gillian, thank you very much for joining us; it is good to see you again. We have done some work together, because Peterborough was part of early pilots on how to tackle electoral fraud, and you took forward measures about postal and proxy voting. With reference to the measures in the Bill—for example, clause 6, introducing the requirement of secrecy for postal votes—could you explain to us the problems you encountered, how you tried to deal with them and how you think the Bill will affect that?
Welcome and thank you to ACC Cann, as well. Given that electoral law can be a relatively niche area within policing, can you tell us how the wider profession works to ensure that the right knowledge, training and capacity are in place in local forces to enable them to play the role that is needed from the police?
Nick Smith (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)
Good morning to the witnesses. I have two questions to ACC Cann. Do you think the penalties for those committing electoral fraud are sufficient to deter the bad actors?Q
Nick Smith (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)
Q Thank you for that. My second question is this. Mr Mawrey, one of our earlier witnesses, said something like, “Voter ID at polling stations isn’t necessary because there is very little personation.” What is the incidence of personation at polling stations, do you know?
Tom Randall (Conservative, Gedling)
CouncillorQ Golds, you gave some examples earlier today about behaviour in polling stations. Had there been a voter ID regime in place in Tower Hamlets previously, do you think the behaviour that you saw in polling stations might have been different?
Tom Randall (Conservative, Gedling)
Q In Mawrey’s judgment, he described —possibly unkindly—the behaviour of polling staff and the police as taking the three wise monkeys as their role models. Do you feel that after the Rahman trial, the police picked up the issues that arose from it?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Order. Can we move on? We are very short of time.
Patrick Grady (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North)
Thank you to the witnesses. I have a rather technical question forQ Gillian Beasley, but I want to ask Councillor Golds a little bit more. A lot of the examples that we are hearing about in Tower Hamlets were described by the previous witnesses as “extreme” and “isolated”. In a lot of the examples, people have been brought to justice. The elections were annulled and the candidates were disqualified. What you are describing is police inaction. If your contention is that the police are not enforcing the laws as they already stand, what gives you confidence that the Bill will be any more enforceable or make any more of a difference? Is the contention that there is even more going on—there is even more fraud and there are lots of Tower Hamletses out there—and we are just lucky that we are picking up what is happening in Tower Hamlets, and we have to stop it happening elsewhere in the country where we cannot see it?
Patrick Grady (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North)
Q I want to pick up on some of the questions that Gillian Beasley has been asked about the process of electoral administration. The Bill creates these different categories of EU citizens: EU citizens with retained rights and qualifying EU citizens. How do you anticipate that adding to all the other burdens that we discussed earlier, such as the surge in late voting and the potential surge in late applications for voter ID? How does the creation of yet more categories on the electoral register fit in with the overall package of the Bill?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Gareth Cann, do you have anything to add?
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
Gillian, it is nice to talk to you in a different context, and thank you for everything that you do to keep elections free and fair in my city. You are right to say that there have been accusations of postal vote harvesting—I have seen it with my own eyes—so it is good to see that you are comforted that the legislation will help you with that. In the most recent elections in the city—certainly when I was elected in December 2019—the city council placed CCTV at polling stations. Will you explain why you felt the need to do that?Q
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
Q I have one follow-up question. Would you say that CCTV also gives the electorate confidence in the process and that personation and other things will not happen?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Gareth Cann, do you have anything to add?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q My question is also for you, Gillian, on the nitty-gritty of the increased resources that you said will be needed. I know that my children will certainly want the free ID card to be able to go into pubs and nightclubs, so there will be more demand for them all year round. As you said, there will be a peak about two weeks before the election, when people realise that they need it. How many staff do you think you will need all year round to provide those ID cards? How many additional staff will you need in that peak before elections, and how much will the additional training cost? Have you been able to provide the estimate of all the costs of what the Government have asked for?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q How much did the CCTV—really innovative work—cost to put in?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q I have a quick question for Councillor Golds. Are you now confident that Tower Hamlets elections are done with integrity? Can the people of Tower Hamlets trust the results of elections now?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Order. Chris Clarkson.
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
Thank you, Ms Rees. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Councillor Golds, to pick up on what you said about that going on in other parts of the country, I can attest to that. In Rochdale there is a sitting councillor who, three years ago, accepted a caution for electoral fraud after being caught voting twice. He is still sitting there and did not lose the Labour Whip.Q
As an experienced election agent, do you think the relatively low level of detection of personation is down to the fact that it is so easy to do? I could pick up a copy of the marked register tomorrow, find out whether you vote routinely in elections, turn up to your polling place, claim to be Peter Golds and vote on your behalf. Or do you agree with Mr O’Hara that it is a solution looking for a problem? If you contest that, what would you describe as an acceptable level of electoral fraud?
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
Q So in your opinion, if I had to turn up with a piece of identification that said, “I am Peter Golds,” and I could not provide it, I should be issued a ballot paper.
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
If I could not prove that I was you, should I be issued with a ballot paper?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Thank you. Have the other witnesses anything to add to that, or can I move on?
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
I have a very quick question for Gillian. For local authorities to issue the free voter ID, what evidence would you need from the person applying?Q
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
Q So there is quite extensive work to go into the actual detail of producing voter IDs. That brings me on to the additional burden on local authorities. You mentioned how difficult it is to get presiding officers, so there is obviously a huge cost implication in this for local authorities—plus the practical solutions of identifying and delivering voter ID. However, surely it would be quite simple for someone to come and say, “I am X, I live at this address and I need an ID card.” Are you looking at photo ID?
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
Q Thank you. Turning to Peter, like you I was a councillor for 21 years, so I have seen the problems with voting systems over the years, but I am pleased that a number of measures were taken in that long period to address some of your concerns. I was also pleased that in your evidence to the House of Lords you said that there is much more discipline in Tower Hamlets now and that the presiding officer should be the chief executive. In Blackburn, that is exactly what happens.
A number of issues have obviously improved, but you felt the issues that have not improved seem to be the lack of co-operation from the police responding to your concerns and the town hall staff not being equipped or resourced enough to deal with the issues. What do you see in the Bill that will address your concerns about the lack of action and co-operation by the police or the inefficiencies in some town hall services?
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
Q Sorry, we do not need a change in legislation for that. I have been involved with many elections, and it is good practice from parties, both Labour and Conservative, to say in their instructions to candidates and campaigners, “You do not touch a postal vote.” If a resident has some difficulty, we phone the town hall and the returning officer sends someone out to help. It seems to me that the problems that Tower Hamlets have experienced, which we accept have got much better, are actually with management within Tower Hamlets. That does not need legislation to find solutions.
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
Q But how will the legislation address the issues raised? Surely that is a police matter.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Order. We have to have short questions and answers now as we are running out of time.
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
I just want you to answer the question.
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
Q People are being intimidated outside polling stations—I have experienced it—and the police should deal with that. People are making allegations about candidates—I believe, at some point, there was a leaflet with me in a burqa. How will this legislation improve such harassment?
Kate Hollern (Labour, Blackburn)
Q Sorry. Basically, people intimidating someone on the street should be a police matter. I accept that there should be limits on what can be said and done within a poll, but that is already in the rules. On the secret ballot, you gave a case—I think Gillian addressed it as well—where someone was with a woman actually casting a ballot, and you found that the lady was intimidated. Did she allege it was intimidation, or did she just require support because she did not speak or read English?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Order. We need a very short answer. We have two more Members who would like to come in.
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
I will build on the questions that myQ colleague, Mr Clarkson, posed to Councillor Golds a moment ago, about personation in polling stations and how prevalent it is. In his judgment in the Bordesley Green ward and Aston ward Birmingham fraud trials back in 2005, the election judge, Mr Mawrey QC, stated that,
“there is likely to be no evidence of fraud, if you do not look for it.”
Your teams in the polling booths are the frontline in identifying personation. What tools do you currently have to look for personation fraud?
Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)
Q I just wanted to briefly ask ACC Cann about polling day, and whether he thinks that the measures around voter ID and undue influence will make polling day easier for the police.
Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)
And voter ID on polling day.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Order. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions and, indeed, for this morning’s sitting. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee for their evidence. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm to continue taking oral evidence.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Q46 I remind Members about the public health guidance and that electronic devices should be switched to silent. We will now hear oral evidence from Fraser Campbell of Blackstone Chambers and Professor David Howarth, Professor of Law and Public Policy at the University of Cambridge. Fraser Campbell is appearing in person and Professor Howarth will be on Zoom. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion agreed by the Committee. For this session, we only have until 2.30 pm. Please will the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Thank you. Minister, would you like to ask the first question?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q As this is such a short session, I will ask one question each of our two witnesses. Mr Campbell, it is nice to see you here today; thank you for giving up your time. The Government’s call for evidence on the accessibility of elections showed that one of the main barriers to voting can be the definition of “companion” in legislation. Do you agree that the expansion of the definition of who can act as a companion will be of benefit and will support more elderly voters and voters with a disability in being able to vote in person?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Moving on to Mr Howarth—David, if I may—you have been a Member of Parliament, so welcome back; it is nice to see you today. You are a former Liberal Democrat Member, and it is great to have your particular intersection of experience. Knowing Parliament as you do, and knowing how, at its best, it can be a place for scrutiny, debate, insight and experience, do you think it is a positive addition to the accountability and governance of the Electoral Commission that we have a greater role for Parliament coming in? Or do you think that the work of the electoral commissioners and the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission as it currently stands is sufficient?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
May I interrupt? Professor Howarth, we are having trouble hearing you. Could you turn your microphone up, please?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
I am really sorry, Ms Rees. I could hardly hear any of that answer.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Thank you. Professor Howarth, could you try repeating your answer to see whether we can hear you?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Yes, that is much better.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q I have one follow-up question, on your time as an electoral commissioner, which as we all know is very different from the election commissioner role, on which we heard from Richard Mawrey earlier today. From your time in that role, David, could you give us examples of when you think there was effective governance and ineffective governance between the commission’s proposals or plans and the SCEC?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
My question for both witnesses is about the accountability of the Electoral Commission and the part of the legislation we are looking at on that issue. It is a balance between parliamentary accountability for the commission but also independence of the commission to be able to do its job. As it stands, the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission has an in-built Government majority, with five Members from the governing party and three Opposition MPs—I declare an interest as a member of that committee. Do you feel that is effective and what do you think will be the impact of adding another Government MP to that committee? Do you think the Electoral Commission is currently suitably held to account by ParliamentariansQ ?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
My question is in two parts. On the plan to give Ministers more control of the Electoral Commission, David, were these plans ever discussed or floated when you were a commissioner between 2008 and 2018? To both of you, why do you think they have now appeared in the BillQ ?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
The Bill seeks to address the integrity of elections. Would you say this is the biggest problem we face in our elections currently? Are there any other concerns you think the Bill should address or any other proposals or measures you think should be included? Do you have any other concerns about the Bill that you have not been able to address?Q
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Professor Howarth, if I can interrupt you, we are having trouble hearing you again.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Could you also lift your head up so we can lip read?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Professor, you asked where this idea of the statement of principles and the policy framework for the Electoral Commission has come from. I hope you were able to hear the evidence in this morning’s sitting, particularly that from Councillor Golds, who gave damning examples of where evidence of widespread fraud was taken by him and others to the Electoral Commission and, in his words, ignored.Q
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q On that point, is it not right that although the commission claims to have the power currently, it has never once brought forward a prosecution?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q Forgive me; if I may ask the question, I will not interrupt the answer. Given that you have never, ever used the power of prosecution, is it fair to claim that removing a power that has never been used is somehow an additional fetter to electoral law?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
We have just a couple of minutes left. Perhaps Patrick Grady will ask a short question and we can have a short answer.
Patrick Grady (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North)
Very briefly on the ministerial policy statement of direction, the Electoral Commission has a UK-wide remit. The Bill provides for devolved Ministers to be consulted, but not necessarily to consent. Do you have any views on the potential for the ministerial statement of direction to start to encroach on areas that might otherwise be regulated by the devolved institutions?Q
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Virginia McVea from the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, Ailsa Irvine from the Electoral Commission and Peter Stanyon of the Association of Electoral Administrators. All the witnesses are on Zoom. Welcome. We have until 3.15 pm for this session. Would the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q If I could begin with you, Ms McVea. Part of the Bill concerns electors showing voter identification at polling stations. That has been a requirement in Northern Ireland for some time. We know that has changed over time: initially not requiring photo ID, then much later having a requirement to show photo ID. Do you have anything that could inform the Committee’s thinking on the way in which that might be implemented in England, Scotland and Wales, and with regard to the speed, if we were to move straight to requiring quite strict photo ID? Obviously, in Northern Ireland you had a much slower transition. Could you outline any of the initial problems electors had in Northern Ireland with access to ID, and what barriers voters who did not have ID came up against?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q If I may ask Peter Stanyon to answer a question from the point of view of the electoral administrators, obviously the issuing of free voter identification cards will fall to local authorities and electoral administrators. Can you outline to the Committee some of the pressures that the people you represent in electoral offices up and down the country face on a day-to-day basis? What kind of pressures already exist? How is the requirement to produce ID cards likely to affect electoral administrators?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Thank you. Would either of the other witnesses like to comment?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q I have one final question for Ailsa Irvine. The Electoral Commission reports to and is funded by the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Senedd, as well as the UK Parliament. How do you think the changes in the legislation whereby the UK Parliament can set the strategic direction will impact the way in which the commission engages with the devolved nations?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Good afternoon to our three witnesses. Thank you very much for joining us. In our various ways, we know each other well from much work done over the years, so it is good to have you with us.
I will start with a couple of questions to Virginia about the concepts of turnout, fraud patterns and confidence, each of which is important in what we are looking at, particularly for voter identification. I am sure we would all agree that turnout is not a linear trend—it can be influenced by wider political factors—but can you confirm that in the first general election after photographic identification was introduced, the 2005 election, turnout in Northern Ireland was higher than in each of England, Scotland and Wales?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you. I apologise; I meant in no way to put you on the spot. We have a note from the House of Commons Library that contains those figures, so I just wanted to give you an opportunity to expand on them.
I will turn instead to the evidence of fraud, which is perhaps the meat of the issue in some of what we are doing on voter identification. Has photo identification been effective in stopping personation, and does it function effectively as a deterrent? In other words, does it prevent the crime from being able to take place in the first instance?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Yes, indeed. I quite understand that. Without wishing to be facetious, for the benefit of the Committee, do you agree with me that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Ailsa, the Electoral Commission’s analysis across various years—I am looking at some from December 2015—concluded that voters’ confidence that elections are well run is consistently higher in Northern Ireland than in Great Britain. Can you say a word about what you know about that from your records? Could you also please explain to the Committee why it is that for many years the Electoral Commission has advocated the introduction of voter identification in Great Britain?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much.
Peter, thank you very much for joining us. On a different topic, may I pick your brains on supporting voters with disabilities at the polling station? We have a measure in the Bill that will widen the existing law, which includes a highly specific requirement for support for voters who are blind or partially sighted, into support for any disability. What are your thoughts on that, and how would you expect your members to respond to it?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you, Peter; that is so helpful. Might the standard that you refer to reasonably be something that would be provided in guidance and training?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Good afternoon. My first question is to Virginia. What advice would you offer the Electoral Commission with regard to the Q implementation of voter ID and how to communicate it to the public, based on your experiences in Northern Ireland?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Q Do you record any data in respect of voters intending to vote with the incorrect ID or no ID, who are effectively turned away from the polling station?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Q Thank you, Virginia. Ailsa, on the evaluation of the ID trials and pilots that took place, was it your finding that the majority of voters were able to vote without any issues?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Q Thank you. We have heard from a number of witnesses today that the offence of personation is not a significant problem. Could I ask you to speculate a little? Do you believe it is underreported because the victim of the crime—the person whose vote has been stolen—is unlikely to be aware of it if they are not attending the polling station themselves? Could you comment on the view expressed by Lord Pickles in his report, where he says that it is harder to take out a library book from many local authorities than to be handed a ballot paper at the polling station?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Q May I ask you one further question on that? Obviously, following an election, a marked register is available to political parties, so they are able to identify voters who regularly attend the polling station and vote, and which elections they voted in. If it were available to a fraudster who intended to carry out the offence of personation, and they were able to use the identity at the polling station of a voter who does not regularly cast their ballot, would the offence of personation in that instance be available as evidence?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Thank you.
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q Ms Irvine, if I may carry on questioning you, you are obviously aware that the Electoral Commission has recommended the use of photographic ID, and you are in very good company. We heard earlier this morning from Lord Pickles who, as you will know, produced a report three or four years ago in which he listed a number of organisations that have come out in favour of photographic ID for our election system. That list includes the Association of Electoral Administrators, SOLACE and the National Police Chiefs Council domestically, but also international recommendations from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe’s Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights. There is a groundswell of advice coming the Government’s way to introduce photographic ID to protect our electoral system from vulnerability to fraud. Can you expound for us the impact that vulnerability has on our democracy and the way people experience it?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q That is a very good point, and it brings me neatly on to Virginia McVea, if I am allowed one further question. You have a lot of experience of the practical application of photo ID in Northern Ireland; I heard your evidence a moment ago that, now it is bedded in, the run rate is about 1,500 card applications a month—is that right?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
So it peaks?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q That is a very good indicator for us to extrapolate from the population of Northern Ireland being 1.86 million. We will all be busy with our calculators later.
The other advice you gave was that for the overwhelming of people there is not a problem—this is not an issue in Northern Ireland voting now, albeit after 20 years. Does that suggest that effective steps have been taken in the Northern Irish political process to raise awareness sufficiently to remove the concerns that some politicians expressed last week in the general debate, that many voters would be disenfranchised because they would turn up at a polling booth and they would not have the right ID? Is that a false fear once the system is bedded down?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Thank you very much.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
I have Paul Bristow, Chris Clarkson, Nick Smith and Fleur Anderson remaining to ask questions, and we have until 3.15 pm, so can we be kind to each other? Thank you.
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
Thank you, Ms Rees. I will only ask the one question, to Peter Stanyon. We have heard evidence today from Gillian Beasley, the chief executive of Peterborough City Council, who does a fantastic job of making sure that our elections in Peterborough are done freely and fairly. She outlined some of the things that she has undertaken in Peterborough, such as CCTV, and the professionalism of her team and her staff. We have also seen how well some of the pilots have gone with voter ID. I have every confidence in the AEA and election administrators across the country to get this right. Do you have that confidence, tooQ ?
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
That is very reassuring to know. Thank you very much.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
I call Chris Clarkson.
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
The question that I wanted to ask has been asked.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Thank you. I call Nick Smith.
Nick Smith (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)
This question is to Ailsa Irvine of the Electoral Commission. Imprints and identification of publisher are important safeguards in our system. I have been a party agent previously, and we are well aware of the importance of fair comment and our libel laws. However, are digital imprints sufficient to improve transparency and prevent interference or misinformation, particularly from overseasQ ?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Virginia and Peter, would you like to add anything to that? No. I call Fleur Anderson.
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q Can I ask Peter Stanyon about the practicalities of issuing a voter ID card on the day? I think we all know of local elections where it is literally a handful of votes—I was involved in one ward where there were five votes between three candidates—so we know that it is really important that every single person who is eligible to vote can vote on the day. I think Virginia said that there is a six-week waiting list for ID cards in Northern Ireland. Can that be compressed to the day? What, practically, will happen when people turn up and they have just not got around to it? As you have all talked about, we saw that spike just before the elections, as with the pilot when ID cards were only issued up to the eve of the poll, rather than on the day. Will it be practical to get ID cards out to everyone on the day, so that everyone who can vote is able to do so?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Please do.
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q How many additional staff do you have?
Patrick Grady (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North)
Q This issue came up in an earlier question by one of our Labour colleagues, but I would like to ask Virginia to say a little more about the practical process of applying for the electoral ID card in Northern Ireland, and in particular what identification is needed to be issued with the voter ID card.
Patrick Grady (Scottish National Party, Glasgow North)
Q So you do not need a photo ID in order to get your photo ID?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. We will move on to the next panel.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Louise Round of SOLACE and Rob Connelly from Birmingham City Council. We have until 4 pm, so would the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Minister, would you like to ask the first question?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q I am happy to go first. Good afternoon and welcome to both our witnesses. It is great to have you with us; thank you for giving up your time in all the ways that you do, including a sliver of that this afternoon.
Rob, if I may start with you, this question goes on from the conversation we have just been having, which I think you were listening to, about the ins and outs of voter identification. As you mentioned in your introduction, regrettably in Birmingham there is that history of having had a major fraud event. I am interested, first, in your reflections on leading a council out of and onwards from that, because it cannot have been easy to do that, and how you might go about trying to give confidence to the city’s citizens that they can trust in their elections.
If you need a moment to draw your breath, I will give you my second question as well, which is to invite you to provide some insights into the work you have been doing with other leaders of councils to look at what might be needed to implement voter identification—for example, training of polling staff, particular support that might be needed at polling stations and the many detailed questions that I know you have begun to give thought to.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q As a follow-up, if my memory serves me correctly the judgment in the Birmingham case—we had Richard Mawrey with us this morning—included quite a few scorching comments that you do have to look for such things. It is not enough to look away and claim that it is not plausible that it could be taking place, and therefore never be prepared to look for such evidence. In fact, he said you would have to be ostrich-like to not want to look for the evidence and make it better, as clearly you were seeking to do.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Yes, indeed. You are doing that to give residents confidence. Do you get a measure of that back from residents?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you. Would you be able to turn to my second question?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
May I ask one more question to Louise and then I will hand on to other colleagues?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Of course.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Louise, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the Committee.
Acknowledging the breadth of what your members will be involved in, and I imagine you will be able to tell us a bit about how in many cases that spans from the registration process all the way through to delivery of polling day and much more, there is often discussion that says, “Well, let’s just get this done in our elections, let’s get that done. Let’s add a scheme here, add a scheme there.” I acknowledge that that can add up to a lot of asks on you and your teams, and those of your members.
With respect to overseas electors in this Bill, could you give us an insight into what has to be done at present to support the participation of overseas electors? What more do you think members will be doing to support a larger group of overseas electors being involved? Might you also make a comment about the number of days that you end up doing that during the election itself?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Picking up on a recent debate in Parliament, Louise, would I be right in thinking that you would not like to see the electoral timetable reduced from 25 working days?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much for your insight. Is there any more that you would like to say about the particular processes that will be required to support overseas electors in demonstrating their connection to the constituency they are registering in?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Thank you very much for joining us. This morning, Richard Mawrey talked about the widescale postal vote fraud in Birmingham. What have you done to tackle that? What in the Bill helps you to further tackle that wide-scale postal vote fraud, and is anything missing from the Bill that would help you were it to be added?Q
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Would it be safe to say that your biggest headache would be around postal voting, and being able to police how postal votes are managed and handled?Q
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Finally, how widespread have you found personation at polling booths since you joined the council in the early 2000s?Q
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Louise, do you have anything to add to that?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Louise, in your earlier remarks, you were talking about overseas electors and how administering the applications and registrations for voting takes up the most time of electoral officers. With the removal of time limits—the 15-year limit on that connection—how much more resources would you expect local authorities to have to make available to service overseas electors? Also, you said that when overseas electors registered, there was an element of having to take it on trust. Do you believe that potentially opens it up to electoral fraud by overseas voters?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q I have a couple of questions for Rob. In your opening remarks, you mentioned how you had managed to put the “ghost of 2004” behind you in Birmingham. Does that mean the existing legislation on the statute books has clearly been sufficient for your council to turn that around?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q In your opening remarks, you said that you had moved on, in that this was no longer the problem that it was in 2004. Does that indicate that the current legislation is sufficient to combat the problems that you faced in Birmingham?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q My final question is about the practicalities of a local authority running the polling stations. The legislation would require voters to show photo ID. The Minister has said in the House that there would be provision for privacy screens so that voters who wear headscarves for cultural or religious reasons can prove their identity. I think you said that you have about 500 polling stations in Birmingham.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Are you confident about being able to provide a female polling clerk at every one of your polling stations?
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
Q Rob, I have just consulted the oracle that is Google by putting in “Birmingham electoral fraud”. It goes all the way back to 2005, and then there are articles from 2011. Interestingly, one from 2016 says:
“20,000 voters vanish from Birmingham’s electoral roll”.
That was around the time that individual electoral registration came in. Obviously, a lot of work has been done to combat some of that fraud already, and you should be commended for that, as yours is the largest authority in Europe. How far do you think the measures in the Bill will go towards challenging the perception of fraud, which is still there?
Secondly, you have both said that there are fairly low levels, or no levels, or personation that you know of. Do you accept that, although there is no voluminous information, it is quite an easy thing to do? By using a bit of nous or looking at a marked register, you can work out who does not normally vote, rock up and claim to be them, and vote without any challenge. Do you accept that the measure will go some way to adding extra safeguards to prevent that from happening in great numbers without detection?
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
Q Do you think it will give people more confidence in the electoral process?
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
Fantastic. Louise, do you have anything to add?
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
That has been my experience, too. Thank you very much.
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q Rob, I would like to go back to the practicalities and your thinking about how you would roll out voter ID. How many additional staff do you think you would need all year round for the applications that come in? We heard earlier that Northern Ireland has ID clinics. How many additional staff do you think you would need for the election period and on the day itself?
To add to that, which groups are you concerned might be disenfranchised by this measure, meaning that you would be working harder to include them? We have had representations from organisations representing older people, people with disabilities, people who are black, Asian or minority ethnic, and women fleeing domestic violence, for example. Are you concerned about those groups, and might other groups be disenfranchised?
Nick Smith (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)
Q Louise, my sense is that you are pretty sceptical that much voter personation actually occurs. It was interesting to hear Mr Connelly talk about the difficulties that young voters may have in having voter ID easily to hand. My view is that simple systems boost participation and simple messages are key. What measures do you think you will have to use across the UK to inform our diverse communities that they will need voter ID, and what are your concerns?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Q I have two questions for Rob. In her evidence, the returning officer from Peterborough outlined that they had explored using CCTV in their polling stations. Could you comment on whether you have done the same and on whether that would be of benefit? Could you also outline whether all your polling station clerks are fully trained in the applicability of tendered ballots?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q Mr Connelly, you were asked a moment ago about disenfranchisement, with specific reference to the first clause in the Bill, on voter ID. Although the Bill has one clause relating to voter ID, it has five clauses relating to proxy and postal voting. We heard really powerful evidence about that from Mr Mawrey QC this morning. When he was asked his view about disenfranchisement, his evidence, which was absolutely stark, was that it was the Bangladeshi community who had had their votes stolen and harvested and who were overwhelmingly disenfranchised as a result of voter fraud. Would you agree with that expression of opinion?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
I should make it absolutely clear that he was making direct reference to Tower Hamlets in that series of questioning. Rather than pinning it all on the Bangladeshi community, what I really want to focus on is that it tends to be minority communities who have had serious examples of electoral fraud—the kind of fraud that is dealt with in the proposed legislation. That is the area where most disenfranchisement has taken place historically.
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q You mention the police as one of the triumvirate. How important is it that the police take electoral fraud seriously and get actively engaged?
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
Q That is a definite improvement. Prior to 2004, complaints were called “Operation Gripe” in West Midlands police.
Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)
It is fair to say there was room for improvement.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
This will be the last question.
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
Q You said in your evidence that a feature of elections in Birmingham in the past has been people turning up at polling stations with a collection of ballots. That is a feature I know all too well from Peterborough—it happens all the time. There is clear evidence of postal vote harvesting. I know that it goes on. We see people knocking on doors down the street collecting ballot papers and postal votes. Do you feel that the provisions in the Bill will go some way to ending what is a pretty murky practice?
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
Q What about party activists collecting ballot papers and handing them in? The Labour party once had its own mock ballot box that it was taking around and asking people to put their votes into. I think we can all agree that that is a practice we ought to end, and we could end it.
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
That is absolutely true.
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
Q There is no excuse for it—do you agree?
Paul Bristow (Conservative, Peterborough)
Yes, indeed. Thank you.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence and we will move on to the next panel.
Examination of witnesses
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Q We will now hear evidence from Dr Kate Dommett of the University of Sheffield; Darren Grimes, a political commentator; and Professor Justin Fisher of Brunel University London. We have until 5 pm for this session, but we might be interrupted by a Division. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
Thank you. Cat Smith?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Thank you, Chair. My first question is for Dr Dommett, regarding your research on digital campaigning. Obviously, for about a decade now, there has been widespread support and campaigning for additional imprints to be part of transparency around online campaigning. Do you feel that this is sufficient? Do you feel that it is future-proofed, and are there any changes or additions that you would like to see in the legislation, given your specialist knowledge in that area?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q You touched on the issue of third-party campaigners, and beyond the digital side, the legislation actually gives the Minister for the Cabinet Office the power to remove the ability of a campaign charity, for example, to campaign in an election. Do you have any concerns about that? The recent legislation change in Scotland means that there would be a disparity in the UK. Do you think that could lead to confusion, particularly for UK-wide third-party campaigners?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
It was about third-party campaigners and the Minister’s power to remove their ability to campaign.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Good afternoon to all three of our witnesses.
I will try to ask a question or two of each. Kate, sticking with you to start—very good to see you—will you give us an insight into the international picture of digital imprints? My understanding is that it is not a very long list of countries that have yet been able to address this and put it in place. I acknowledge your point that it has been a long time coming but, in turn, you will appreciate that is because we have taken time to do technical consultation quite comprehensively, which is needed here. Given that context, is it not the case that not very many other countries have managed to do this yet and we stand a chance of being in the lead?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you, that is helpful and one of the things that we will be aiming to do. Will you also recap for us the goal, or the problem, that you think the absence of a digital imprint gives rise to that needs to be solved? We did not start with principles, but went straight into the details of how we might improve the idea.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Yes, indeed. May I quickly pick up on the third-party campaigning definition question which you have just discussed with Cat Smith? Will you confirm for the Committee that there is already a provision in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 —namely, section 88—that allows for a list of categories of entities that are able to give a notification or, in other words, to register with the Electoral Commission as a third-party campaigner? That already exists in law and as a concept.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Not to worry, we will pick that up later. Thank you so much for joining us. I turn now to Professor Fisher—welcome—and the notional expenditure part of the Bill. You have kindly already supplied some evidence to the Committee in which you say that you endorse the Bill’s approach to that question.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you. That is a very thoughtful reflection. I have always been struck by the need to continue to allow grassroots activists, volunteers and people who are not steeped in electoral law to be involved. Do you agree that there is a way here to encourage people to get involved without overbearing legal risk?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you. I am sure there may be some other questions around that later on, perhaps bringing in our other guest who also has experience there. Sticking with you, Professor Fisher, I want to ask about the provision on third-party campaigner registration—the new lower tier for registration—and the Bill’s aim to restrict third-party campaigning to UK-based entities. You say that both of those make good sense, and hope that they serve to enhance transparency at an election. Can you explain why you take that view?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you so much. I will turn to Darren. Thank you for giving your time this afternoon. I am going to adopt the tone of Professor Fisher about the need to consider how much regulation is too much regulation, and how to encourage grassroots activists to be involved. Perhaps this is an area you might make a comment on?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Understood.
Christina Rees (Labour/Co-operative, Neath)
For the benefit of witnesses, there is about to be a vote in the Chamber, so I thank the witnesses for their evidence, and the Committee will meet again here at 11.30 am to take oral evidence.