Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Public Bill Committee, 20 May 2021.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I remind hon. Members to observe physical distancing. They should sit only in the places that are clearly marked, and it is important that Members find their seats and leave the room promptly to avoid delays for other Members and staff. Members should wear face coverings in Committee unless they are speaking or medically exempt. Finally, questions to witnesses should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and we must stick to the timings in the programme order that the Committee agreed on Tuesday—we have plenty witnesses and only a finite amount of time. There is one other issue: we have some problems with the cameras, so we can see and hear the witnesses, and they can hear us, but they cannot see us.
We will now discuss the lines of questioning to this morning’s witnesses before we start the session in public.
Examination of witnesses
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I call the first panel of witnesses. Campbell Robb is the chief executive of the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders, and Helen Berresford is the director of external engagement for that organisation, so we have two from NACRO. Sam Doohan is policy officer at Unlock. I would like each witness to introduce themselves very quickly so we can crack on with questioning.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Great. It is nice that we can hear you in the ether. We cannot actually see you either now, so you cannot see us and we cannot see you. We would quite like to see the witnesses if that can be organised. Who would like to ask the first question? I call Sarah Champion.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. I have two questions. Will the changes in the Bill, particularly around youth offending, help early intervention and prevention, and reduce reoffending?Q 153
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Which proposals specifically? Have you got them there to rattle off?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. Lack of employment is a major barrier to rehabilitation after release from custody. Do you think that proposals to reform the criminal records regime go far enough to address that?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Sorry, Mr Robb, we did not hear that because we have a bell going off in our ears. Could you repeat that?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
AsQ always, it is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. What we have just touched on is central to the way that we can try to rehabilitate some offenders. There is a vicious circle, which I am sure most Members of Parliament will have come across, where we are trying to rehabilitate a young offender and get them into work, but the cost of the disclosure rules often put the employers off or make the person have to return to crime—that is probably not a good way of putting it, but they are forced into criminal activity because they cannot get gainful employment.
Have we got the balance right? To what extent is an employer entitled to know somebody’s criminal history? Can we do more to work with employers to get them to understand? Companies such as Timpson, for example, have been very good at taking on people who have criminal pasts, and rehabilitating them. Does the Bill move in the right direction on this? Does it protect employers from potential criminal activity from employees and does it make it easier for people to get into work?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q In our farming business, we once hired a young man and we did not know until he started work that he had just come out of a young offenders institution. He was a lodger in my mother’s house. He was absolutely fantastic, but if we had known, we may not have hired him. I genuinely do not know the answer to this question, but to what extent are probation service staff, who probably know more about these offenders than anyone else outside their own family, able to engage with employers to help them make that decision, or is that not in the probation service’s remit?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Can I ask our witnesses about problem-solving courts? We have had them before. In fact, when I was the Minister of State for Justice and Equalities before the 2010 election, we had a number of different problem-solving courts, such as mental health and drugs courts. My recollection is that they worked very well, saved the system a lot of money in the long run and helped individuals, but they cost a bit more to operate. My experience of them was that they were a good thing, but they were all abolished during the austerity years by the coalition Government. So, we know they work. Do you agree with that assessment? Would you like to see problem-solving courts simply rolled out, so that we can make the savings that they make for individuals sooner rather than laterQ ?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Can I ask Unlock if they have anything to add?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Would you like to see problem-solving courts rolled out without being piloted first? Why pilot them when we know what their benefits are?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thanks. I just want to ask about sentencing and the wide range of proposals in the Bill. Have you detected anything in the Bill that you think will contribute to sentence inflation and will mean that, inadvertently or otherwise, people end up with longer sentences?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q I was not really asking you to tell me whether the provisions for longer sentences will create longer sentences, but whether there is anything else in the Bill that might inadvertently end up creating sentence inflation.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Yes, certainly.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I will bring in the Front Benchers in three minutes. Mr Dorans, do you want to ask a question?
Allan Dorans (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Nothing at the moment.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Are all the Back Benchers content and happy? Mr Levy, I did not see you hiding behind the Perspex. You have three minutes before I bring in the Front Benchers.
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
I will be very quick, Sir Charles, and I thank you for the opportunity. May I ask the panel for their views on what role they see charities playing in youth offending?Q
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
Thank you. I will leave it at that, because I know we are conscious of time.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
You have more time. Do you want to hear from any other witnesses?
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
Yes, if we have time.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. Helen, in one of her earlier comments, said that she has some concerns about the spending periods around the system of cautions. Do the panel members have other concerns about the new two-tier system of cautionsQ ?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Sam, you talked about disproportionality in relation to cautions, but have the panel got concerns that any of the Bill’s proposals will have a disproportionate impact on certain communities?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Helen, is there anything that you want to add on behalf of your organisation?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is helpful. Are the proposals in the Bill for a court sanction of a custodial sentence for a breach of a community order necessary?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Sam, I assume that you agree with that. Could you be very brief, because I have another question that I need to get in?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Very briefly, the Bill proposes to expand the length and intensity of electronically monitored curfews that courts can impose. Do you think that that is an effective provision for reducing reoffending?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much. Mr Philp.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you, Sir Charles, and thank you everyone for joining us this morning and for the work that you do in trying to protect the public and rehabilitate offenders. We are all very grateful to you.
May I start with problem-solving courts? Clearly, as with so many things, it is important that the implementation is right; there are some things that work and some things that do not. Can you give your views on the things that have worked and the things that have not worked in problem-solving courts that we have tried in the past—I think there was one in Merseyside a few years ago—and the lessons that we might learn from problem-solving courts in the US, as we design and implement the pilot?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q You mentioned CSTRs, which obviously are referred to prominently in the White Paper. I strongly support them and want to see them being rolled out, because they treat the underlying causes of offending, in particular mental health problems, and drug and alcohol addiction.
First of all, do you share that analysis, particularly where a CSTR might be an alternative to a short sentence? If you do share that analysis, what do you think we can do to encourage the wider use of CSTRs, in addition to the extra money for the actual treatment that is being provided at the moment? I ask that because I would like to see them being used a lot more.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. Helen, you raised a point about the potential for custodial sentences following a breach of a community order. Does it reassure you that obviously that is a matter of judicial discretion, and that we expect judges to use custody only as a last resort—indeed, they are bound to do so? In order to ensure that community orders are complied with, judges need to have that option as a last resort. It is to be used rarely, but none the less it needs to be available, should it ever be required.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. I have one last question. Do the panel have any views on the principle of statutory minimum sentences?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I thank our three witnesses for a very strong performance and for answering the questions so fully—it is much appreciated.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
We now move on to our second session. We have Dame Vera Baird, the Victims’ Commissioner. Dame Vera, could you introduce yourself for the record, please? Not that you need a great deal of introduction, as you were formerly of this parish, but just for the record.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Excellent. We are receiving you—brilliant. I am not sure if you can see us yet, but we can certainly see you. I call Mr Goodwill.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Good morning, Dame Vera. I think the victims who feel most let down by the criminal justice system are the victims of rape. Very low numbers of those cases get to court and, similarly, low numbers achieve convictions. Over recent months and years, some electronic data from phones has been used to undermine some of those cases. Messages sent to placate—certainly not to antagonise—the abuser in an abusive relationship can be used to undermine the case, for example. Proposals on data analysis and consent for it are coming forward, but how can we improve victims’ confidence in the criminal justice system—particularly for crimes such as rape and other serious sexual offences—and reduce requests for information from those victims?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
I think we probably need to move on, because other colleagues want to get in.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I think we have to move on now. It is not that this is not important. It is hugely important, but you have asked one question and there was a 10-minute response. We have three colleagues. We cannot do that again. I call Mr Dorans.
Allan Dorans (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q Thank you, Sir Charles; this is my first Bill Committee, and I look forward to serving under your chairmanship. Dame Vera, in your view does the Bill go far enough to put the interest of victims at the heart of the criminal justice system? If not, what further measures would you like to see included in the Bill as a priority?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Good morning, Dame Vera. I have a couple of quick-fire questions, which hopefully you can answer briefly, please. There should be, in the victims’ code, consultation when an offender is going in front of their parole board, and the victim should receive notice, if not an automatic right to submit evidence to it. Unfortunately, that tends not to happen. I have had two cases in the last six months where offenders have been downgraded and could be eligible for release and the victims knew nothing about it. One of my amendments is to make it mandatory that victims have their statement read out during a parole hearing. What are your thoughts on that?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. That leads me nicely to special measures. Again, there is the provision for special measures in courts, but it is at the judge’s discretion, and it also depends on whether the facilities are there. Do you think they should be mandatory for vulnerable witnesses?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you very much. Just one line, please, commissioner. Non-penetrative child abuse offences are not seen as serious crime; therefore, they do not fall under the double jeopardy rule. Should they be?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Thank you.
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. Welcome, Dame Vera. Your role as national lead on victims for the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners is important, and we are grateful for all your work. We Q heard quite distressing evidence from PCCs this week about the impact of unauthorised encampments—illegal activity, damage, fly-tipping and intimidation—on the local communities where the encampments are. Do you accept that local residents who are in close proximity to the unauthorised encampments are victims of crime?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q Thank you. That is helpful to hear. On cautions, out-of-court disposals, the proposed changes will ensure that the victims are consulted for their views. Are you supportive of that? Do you think that those changes will assist with the drive towards, and the approach of, more restorative justice?
Lee Anderson (Conservative, Ashfield)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir CharlesQ . I have just one question, Dame Vera. What are your views on stronger sentences for drivers who cause death or serious injury?
Lee Anderson (Conservative, Ashfield)
Yes, please.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. Dame Vera, you answered, in response to your first question, most of the questions that I was going to ask, so I am very pleased that you were able to do that. Obviously, as the Opposition, we have tabled a lot of amendments, which seek to do exactly what you described.Q
To finish the conversation that we started at the beginning, it would be helpful if you could describe the impact that you think those amendments will have on the process and on the victims. Perhaps you could say a bit more about their sense of confidence in the system. What are we aiming for here?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
That is very clear. Thank you.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Hello, Vera. As Sarah said a few minutes ago, you have covered much of the material that we would want to ask questions on. I will ask you to give us a reasonable summary. Do you believe that any of the proposals in the Bill increase victims’ confidence in the system, particularly if they are victims of rape? We all know the figure: 44% withdraw their case before the trial even begins. If you were to give us a series of headlines, what would they be?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Thank you very much for that. I think you have covered everything that I needed to cover.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Dame Vera, I want to roll back and put this set of clauses in context. Everybody acknowledges that there is a significant problem with the trust of victims of sexual violence in particular when it comes to the seizing of phones and digital evidence. There have been recent cases that we have heard about. In consequence, the Government have an ongoing end-to-end rape review, which is looking at every single stage of the criminal justice system. Following the last question, I would not for a moment want colleagues to think that this Bill is the Government’s answer to addressing the real and keenly felt concerns of rape victims and other victims of sexual violence.
On the point about digital divides, do you accept that there is a need to clarify the law on this? At the moment, we have the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996 and we have the Attorney General’s new guidelines, but presumably you accept that there is a need to set a framework in law in order to help and protect victims, and to protect the right of a free trial under article 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Okay. Within that context, we have to bear in mind the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996 and the Data Protection Act 2018. Do you accept that?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q All right. Clause 36(5)(a) sets out the conditions under which the power may be exercised—namely, that an “authorised person”, as defined elsewhere in the Bill, must reasonably believes
“that information stored on the electronic device is relevant to a purpose within subsection (2)”.
That wording of course comes from the 1996 Act, doesn’t it?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q All right, but do you accept that there is a test of relevance in terms of disclosure under the 1996 Act?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I will come back to that. The test in clause 36(5)(b) is that the authorised person must be
“satisfied that exercise of the power is necessary and proportionate”.
Again, that wording applies across the board in terms of criminal proceedings. Is that correct?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I have long accepted that, Dame Vera. That is why we have the end-to-end rape review, which is ongoing, as you know. The reason I ask that is because one would not want the Committee to think that these clauses are the only measures being taken to secure the framework for extraction of digital devices. You will accept that the clauses set out that a statutory code of practice will accompany the Bill.
The codes of practice under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, for example, are vital codes of practice that are relied on in court. If a police officer does not meet the standards expected by that code when interviewing suspects, for example—if there is a significant breach—the entire prosecution can fall. Do you accept that although we are rightly looking at the wording of the clauses, just focusing on those would not give the full picture? We also need to consider the importance that the code of practice will have. It will deal with some of the practice points that you have raised.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
But you accept—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q No, it is a proper analogy, because they are both statutory codes of practice. Of course the police will have to abide by those codes of practice and will be held to account by the Victims’ Commissioner and others if they are seen to be failing those codes.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
No—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q The police force or the CPS are accountable for their conduct under the codes of practice. That is why the code of practice is in the Bill, not least because putting the sort of detail you seem to be suggesting in the Bill is not as responsive and flexible as putting it into a code of practice—by definition, changing primary legislation is not as responsive or flexible. These clauses are not the only factors to bear in mind when looking at the overall issue of digital devices. I will move on—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q This will not be operating in a vacuum. The police are of course accountable to police and crime commissioners, as you know as a former commissioner. The police are also accountable to Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, and the police forces have their individual complaint processes. There are ways of accountability. I will move on—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q There are many aspects to public confidence, but that is why we are addressing this one aspect of it in the Bill as part of the Government’s overall work on the rape review and, as you said yourself, the victims law.
I will move on to unauthorised encampments. You were asked about the impact and you fairly conceded that residents can be victims in the context of unauthorised encampments. Clause 61 sets out the offence. The conditions that are laid down for the alleged commission of an offence include factors such as “significant damage”, “significant disruption” and “significant distress”. With your focus on antisocial behaviour, presumably you welcome the focus on those unauthorised encampments that result in those sorts of distressing conditions?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
So do you see it as inevitable—
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witness again for her evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I will introduce our panel of witnesses. If they can see us and hear us, that is an improvement on this morning when they could only hear us. We will hear from Iryna Pona, policy and research manager at the Children’s Society, and Will Linden, deputy head of the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit at Community Justice Scotland.
Colleagues, we have until 2.45 pm for this section, so just under 45 minutes. Will our witnesses introduce themselves for the record, please?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you. Mr Linden next.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you. Our first question is from Sarah Champion.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Good afternoon, witnesses. What difference would it make if there was a definition of child criminal exploitation? Children’s Society first.Q 194
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Sorry, I am a bit deaf and your link is a bit iffy. Is there any chance you could speak a little slower, please?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. Will, do you have thoughts on this, please?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q How much data is currently collected by Government agencies around offences relating to child sexual exploitation or child criminal exploitation?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. Will, what is the Scottish perspective?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Hello. It would be good if you could start by setting out your view on the duty in the Bill to prevent serious violence. Do you think that will help towards a public health approach to tackling violence, and what do you think could be amended in the Bill to make it better? I do not mind who starts.Q
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Just to be clear on that, do you think that putting the safeguarding of children on the face of the Bill would be the way to ensure that this is part of the picture?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q This is a question for the Children’s Society. Could you explain, for the purposes of Committee members, what is understood by the term “plugging”?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Do you think that there would be benefit in trying to define that in a better way, in terms of a criminal offence?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Why do not we bring in Mr Linden?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q I will ask you a slightly different question. Could you explain, for the benefit of the Committee and so we are all on the same page, what is meant by the term “public health approach to tackling violence”?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q For the benefit of the Committee and so we understand what is behind this new duty to prevent violence, can you explain why you think we have seen levels of violence, particularly among young people, and issues such as knife crime increase over recent years?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Thank you. We had an evidence session on Tuesday in which one of the police and crime commissioners said that she thought that we were seeing an increase in violence as a society, as if that was just a thing that was happening without any reason. Do you agree that tackling violence is actually preventive? Could you tell us a couple more things that have been done in Scotland that mean you have got violence among young people to a different level from what we have in England?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Thank you. That was really helpful.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
I want to ask about the serious violence reduction units and what you think they will be able to do in practice and how they will interact. I do not know what experience you have in Scotland with different arrangements; there may be some. There are existing partnerships and cross-agency collaborations. Do you think that the proposed serious violence reduction units will complement or replace them? What is your experience of this kind of collaborative working and how well it can fit in within existing structures, some of which will overlap?Q
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q There are supposed to be pilots of the serious violence reduction units—I think Merseyside, my area, is one of the pilot areas. Do you have any experience of those kinds of pilots in Scotland? If so, what kind of indicators would you expect the Government to be monitoring to assess whether they have been successful before rolling out further?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you. Let me welcome Iryna back. I hope she can hear us. We can now see that she is moving, so hopefully she can hear us.
Iryna, I am asking about the serious violence reduction units and how they are going to fit into other arrangements that are already there. From the perspective of the Children’s Society, do you have anything to say about how the new multi-agency collaborations are going to work alongside violence reduction units and existing structures that are supposed to promote collaboration between agencies?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Sorry about this noisy room, colleagues. It is an extraordinarily noisy room.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
It is extraordinary. I have tinnitus, which is why I am deaf, so that ringing—
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
It is driving me mad, so I do not know what it is doing to colleagues.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Let me ask you briefly, in your experience what is the impact on a child receiving a criminal record? Please can I start with Will.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Thank you.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Does anybody else have anything they would like to ask our excellent witnesses? No? Well, I thank the two of you for giving up your Thursday afternoon to join us. I am sorry that we lost you occasionally and that there was background noise, bells and banging, but we got there in the end, so thank you very much.
Examination of Witness
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Good afternoon, Hazel, and thank you for being ready to join us early. Hazel Williamson is the chair of the Association of Youth Offending Team Managers. I have just introduced you, but I think we need to do you the courtesy of allowing you to introduce yourself very briefly.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much. We have a question straight away from Mr Robert Goodwill.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
As a former Children’s Minister, this is something very close to my heart. I would like to ask you a little bit about custodial remand and whether you find that in practice, custodial remand is currently used appropriately for childrenQ .
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Some children may be living in dysfunctional families, but very many whom the criminal justice system comes into contact with are in local authority care. In fact, sadly, these children make up a large proportion of those who get involved with the police, both as children and as they become adults: if you look at the prison population, far too many of them have been in local authority care. In your experience, is it more likely that a child in local authority care will be put into custodial remand, or would there be a consideration that that would be a good alternative?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Finally, in terms of scrutiny of these decisions, what structures does your association think could be utilised or built on at a local level, or indeed at a national level, to make sure that remand decisions are properly scrutinised?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Thank you very much indeed for those clear and concise answers.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q May I ask about secure 16-19 academies: the new initiative, delayed for various reasons, to try to break that link between being in custody and educational achievement ending up very low? Do they offer a way forward not managed by other provision? Do they provide a fundamentally different model from the current youth custodial provision?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you. You do not sound entirely convinced that it will be a great initiative, but no doubt the proof of the pudding will be in the eating when we see these things established and starting to work. Do you have any views on the changes proposed to youth rehabilitation orders?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally from me, do the changes in the Bill on custody for children and options for children make enough good provision to distinguish between the needs of boys and the needs of girls in the system?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you ever so much for this, Hazel. I have been around one of these secure children’s homes—it was a mixed-sex one—and I found it absolutely terrifying. I have visited places such as Strangeways that were nowhere near as horrifying as I found the secure unit. You said that you would rather they were small and located close to the child’s home. Can you define “small”? How many children? What would be the maximum?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q I was really disturbed that IICSA—the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse—showed that the reported incidents of sexual abuse in youth offending institutions and secure children’s homes are much higher than was previously understood. Is there anything in the Bill that would address that, or could anything be added that would be able to make an impact?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Could you give specific examples of what could be in the Bill that would reach that outcome?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. You are not being drawn on this, so I will move on. I was surprised that the option of charitable status for secure children’s homes was potentially in the Bill. Who would benefit from that?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Finally, I know that the average price for a place in a secure children’s home is about £10,000 a week if it is a private one. Do you know what the cost is likely to be or currently is in a secure unit for a child?
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
Thank you, Hazel, for giving up your timeQ today. As Sarah has just said, some of these homes can be really quite scary places. I know that, because before being elected as a Member of Parliament, I worked for the NHS in a mental health setting, and a lot of my time was spent working in adolescent secure units. Could you expand a little on youth offending teams and rehabilitation for children who are given community sentences? How do you administer that, and what mental health provision is there in that?
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
Thank you very much. I would agree that it is a very complex issue that we are dealing with here and I think you are doing an absolutely fantastic job. Thank you.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Well done, Mr Levy. Right, are there any more Back-Bench colleagues who would like to come in before I bring in the shadow Minister, who is champing at the bit? No? I call the shadow Minister.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
HeQ always is, Sir Charles; he always is.
Earlier, I believe that I heard you correctly when you were expressing a view on the proposed changes to the test for custodial remand. Did you say that you were concerned that it could lead to more children being remanded in custody?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Thank you for clarifying that. So if the Bill will lead to more children being in custody, can you explain why you believe that to be the case?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Thank you. It is helpful that you talked about maturity, because I have a question specifically on that. Clause 36(10) states:
“In this Chapter…‘adult’ means a person aged 16 or over”.
Do you think that generally—you have already alluded to some of this—the Bill gives sufficient consideration to research on maturity?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Hazel, you did a grand job of answering my next question in your previous answer. Maybe you would like to speak a little bit more about this point. What are your concerns about offenders who commit crimes as a child being sentenced as an adult if they reach 18 before they go to trial? What should we do about that?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q At the more serious end of offences, do you have any concerns about the Bill’s proposals for reducing the opportunities for adults who committed murder as a child to have their minimum term reviewed?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Thank you. Hazel, your teams around the country do a tremendous job in the most difficult of circumstances. I hope you will pass on our thanks to them for the work they do. I would like to ask a general question. What do they consider to be the greatest challenges facing youth offending teams as they are trying to deliver adequate services for our young people?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you, Hazel, for all the work you and your colleagues do across the country; I know that it is appreciated across the House. I have two brief questions. First, you mentioned the question of sentencing of people who were under 18 at the age of the offence, but over 18 at the point of sentence. You also made reference to maturity, as did the shadow Minister. Would you accept that, even if someone is over 18, the pre-sentence report can and does take into account maturity and the judge can reflect that in passing sentence?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q But should the court not sentence the person before the court, with regard to their maturity, condition and everything else at the point of sentence, rather than at a hypothetical time in the past?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q If your point is that they can change, surely the pre-sentence report delivered at the point of sentence will reflect that change, and that would be the appropriate approach to take. We will no doubt debate that extensively during line-by-line consideration.
Secondly, some new youth sentencing options, and sentencing options more widely, are made available in the Bill. Can you give us some commentary on how youth offending services and courts can make a success of those new sentencing options?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Yes, for example.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Okay, that is very helpful. Thank you very much.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Hazel, thank you for that. When people ask—[Interruption.] Bloody hell, I am wrestling with my wretched mask—my mother-in-law made it and I wear it in honour and tribute to her. Hazel, when people ask me, “How should I prepare to give evidence to a Committee?”—be it a Select Committee or a Bill Committee like this—I shall say, “Watch Hazel Williamson.” That was crisp, concise and informative. It really was a masterclass, and it is appreciated by us all at the start of a very long afternoon. We are trying to find our next witness, who is being asked to appear 25 minutes early. If we cannot find our next witness, colleagues may go and have a cup of tea and stretch their legs. Thank you, Hazel.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I will call a 10-minute break. The sitting is suspended until a quarter past 3.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Hello, Ellie Cumbo, Head of Public Law at the Law Society. Can you hear and see us?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Excellent. We have until 4.15 pm for this session, but I think we are going to end early. Thank you for joining us early. We are ahead of schedule. Would you like to introduce yourself very briefly?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Fantastic, thank you for that. Robert Goodwill, over to you, sir.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Good afternoon, Ellie. I would like to ask you about a subject that we discussed in some detail on Tuesday: the policing of demonstrations and the way that demonstrations can be compliant. It seems an area where the law and politics collide quite violently. It appears quite difficult to draft legislation so that those who pretty much know what they want to achieve can do so in a way that is legally watertight. Do you accept that freedom of speech and freedom of assembly are qualified rights, and that in managing a disruptive protest, the police need to balance those rights with those of others who may be adversely affected by the protest—people who want to go to work or go about their normal lawful business?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q So you have not gone so far as to try to predict how the provisions brought forward by the Government may actually work in practice. It is pretty much, “Let’s suck it and see if it actually does what we want it to do.” Are you saying it is difficult to predict whether these will be effective and whether they will work, or difficult to predict whether the police will be able to use these tools at their disposal in a proportionate and possibly compassionate way?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Thank you. There are some terms we use in everyday conversation that have specific legal meanings that most members of the public would not be aware of, so could I ask what benefit codifying the common law offence of “public nuisance” into statute brings?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Would the same apply to using the terms “annoyance” and “inconvenience”, understood in the terms of public nuisance? Is the jury still out on that one as well, from your point of view?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Thank you.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q I think the Law Society does have some concerns about some aspects of the Bill. Would you like to set out to us the main areas of concern that the Law Society has?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q The Bill, if it is enacted, would increase the initial bail period to three months, with extensions to six months, nine months and then beyond nine months. Would you set out what your precise concerns about that are?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Are there difficulties for solicitors and lawyers who seek to assist those accused who might be on bail or release under investigation for long periods? Are problems caused by the delay, in terms of getting proper access to legal advice for those people who are on bail for an extended period of time, perhaps a long time before they are charged, or due in court having been charged? We are seeing extensions in those timescales caused in part by the impact of the coronavirus pandemic and in part by delays that were in the system beforehand. Does the Law Society have concerns about access to legal advice that are made worse by these delays because of long time periods on bail or release under investigation?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you. You also raised concerns about remote hearings and clause 166. What concerns do you have about that?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you. When I was the Minister for disabled people—a long time ago now—I led on recognising British Sign Language as a language. The Bill amends the 13th person rule by allowing a BSL interpreter into the jury room, with the aim of enabling deaf jurors to participate. Do you welcome that? If you do have concerns about it, what are they?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Chair, I apologise for running late.
Ellie, I am reeling from something that our Front-Bench spokesperson said in the last session. In chapter 3, on the extraction of information from electronic devices, in clause 36(10), the Government redefine an adult away from the definition in the convention on the rights of a child, which defines a child as a human under the age of 18, to
“ ‘adult’ means a person aged 16 or over”.
Could you comment on that extraordinary change?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q If you could write to us on that, it would be hugely appreciated.
Within the Bill, there are changes regarding the availability of live links and when a vulnerable witness could call for special measures. What reasons would a judge have to refuse the use of a live link?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q One of the amendments I am putting forward is the presumption that a vulnerable witness can have special measures unless the judge deems otherwise. Would you be comfortable with that slight shift? Currently, it is up to a judge’s discretion.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
I would be extremely grateful for that. Thank you. I refer you back to one of your earlier answers. There are already huge backlogs in the justice system, for various reasons. Are there any measures in the Bill that cause you direct concern that it might increase that backlog?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Would any other colleagues from the Back Benches like to participate? No. I call the shadow Minister.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Thank you very much, Sir Charles. Ms Cumbo, in your opening remarks you gave us some broadbrush thoughts on concerns that you might have about the Bill. Could you speak a little more about any concerns that you have about the proposed changes to sentencing, particularly in criminal cases?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Okay, but would your understanding be, or would you comment on the fact, that there is the potential for the proposed changes to lead to sentence inflation?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q I want to take you back to the video link issue, which is controversial to say the least. Can we get a yes or no on whether you believe that remote juries should be introduced in England and Wales?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q What has been your experience of the Government’s consultation around that issue? Have they consulted widely enough? Have you had the opportunity to have your say in the way you want to?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q The Lord Chancellor thinks it is a grand idea because it will allow people from rural communities to participate more in juries. I agree that that has to be a positive thing because everybody should be able to play their role, but do you think that there are key groups of defendants who are likely to be worst impacted by the provisions?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q On the basis that the professionals do not understand what the Government are about—they do not understand the rationale behind the proposals for remote juries—I suppose you are not in a position to offer what safeguards should be put in place to protect fair trial rights.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
That is great. Thank you very much.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Do you have any feedback from your members about how the use of remote hearing technology has worked during the pandemic? For example, I think we are now holding 20,000 remote hearings a week.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Yes, that seems very reasonable. The question of whether remote hearings are appropriate is ultimately a matter for the judge presiding over any given hearing. Do you share my confidence that the judiciary can be relied on to make the right decisions and permit remote hearings where appropriate and not where not appropriate?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Thank you.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Ellie, I asked you earlier whether you had any concerns about the Bill putting additional pressure on the judicial system. Does the Law Society have any other concerns about the Bill that you have not already mentioned?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Thank you.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
That brings this session to an end. Ellie, thank you very much for joining us and for the crispness of your answers.
Examination of Witnesses
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I say to the Committee that we are only going to run this panel for a maximum of 45 minutes. Our wonderful people in the Perspex booth doing the audio and visual will try to find the next panel so that we can end today at 5.30 pm. That is 15 minutes early, but we are running ahead of schedule.
We will now hear from Dr Kate Paradine, chief executive of Women in Prison; Nina Champion, director of the Criminal Justice Alliance; Dr Laura Janes, legal director of the Howard League for Penal Reform; and Dr Jonathan Bild, director of operations at the Sentencing Academy. Welcome, all.
May I ask for short and crisp answers? You will be asked lots of questions and there are four of you. I will not delay further. Will you introduce yourselves in no more than 10 seconds each, please? We will start with Dr Paradine.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Great. Mr Goodwill next.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q I shall start with a short question. Which parts of the Bill do you welcome and which parts might need some changes or improvement? Who wants to start?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Do it in the order you introduced yourselves.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q On that point, before we move on to the other witnesses, what is your view on giving the probation officer a power to increase a sentence? We were talking about carrots, but perhaps we should talk about sticks at the same time.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
I cannot remember who was next.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
It is Nina Champion.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Would you not agree that keeping dangerous, violent or sexual offenders in prison for longer protects the general public?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q First, hello Nina—I have never spoken to another Champion that I am not related to before. My question is for Laura. Will the number of people in prison increase as a result of this Bill?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. Kate, what percentage of women in prison are actually victims of crime themselves?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q My understanding is that women tend to be in prison for survival-type crimes. Is that correct? Can you give us some examples and any data that you have?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you—I hear your pleas. My final question is to Jonathan. Do you feel that the proposed changes in sentencing within the Bill adequately consider the impact on women, children and primary carers? Other witnesses can come in if they want to, but I direct the question to Jonathan.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Dr Janes, you wanted to say something a moment ago and put your hand up.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q I want to press a little further on the impact on women in prison and on whether this Bill will help or make things more difficult. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham said, many of the women who end up in prison are there on short sentences for less serious and non-violent offences, and quite often they are victims themselves. To what extent to do the sentencing provisions in the Bill recognise the difference in offending in respect of women, who are a small proportion of the overall prison population? Do you believe they have been forgotten in this policy development process?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q In your experience, does it happen that women end up getting sentenced, usually for short terms of imprisonment, because they have either breached community orders or have committed repeat petty offences, such that magistrates end up feeling like there is not really any alternative to a custodial sentence? And to what extent do you believe that a broader range of more appropriate community sentences, for example, might be an answer to this situation, rather than imprisonment?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
I think that the Howard League wanted to come in there, if I can see properly.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Dr Bild wants to come in on this and then Nina Champion. Dr Bild.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally, the Government do have a policy about diverting women from prison. They have a concordat. They have policy development ongoing that seeks to do that. Do you believe that that policy intent, which has often been referred to by Ministers—there is documentation out there about it—is reflected in the Bill, and that the policy intent of trying to divert women from prison can be translated through the measures in the Bill, as well as existing provision, into concrete change that will divert women from prison?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q I will be very brief because my colleague has also asked some questions. Jonathan, do you have concerns about clause 108 and the power to refer high-risk offenders to the Parole Board in place of automatic release?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is helpful. I will stop you there, because I need to crack on. The Bill contains provisions that would give probation officers the power to restrict a person’s liberty in ways that go beyond what the court has sanctioned. What implication does that have on confidence in sentencing?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Laura, do you have any concerns about the Bill’s proposals to reduce the opportunities for adults who have committed murder as a child to have their minimum term reviewed?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Do others want to comment on that? If not, let me ask this question. Why has the age of the offender at the time of sentencing, rather than at the time of the offence, been chosen as the determining factor for the renew of minimum term in clause 104, when it is the age at the time of the offence that determines the nature of the sentence?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Does anybody else wish to comment on that? If not, I will pass to Sarah.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q My question is for Nina. Could you talk to us about the serious violence reduction orders and any concerns you might have about the disproportionality, which the former Prime Minister the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) raised on Second Reading? Also, what do you think we might look to do in the pilots, and what might we learn from the pilots for the knife crime prevention orders that might help us here?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Thank you.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Jonathan, I will come to you first. A few minutes ago you were talking about the measures whereby a prisoner who becomes dangerous—or who might have become dangerous—can serve more of their sentence in prison, and you drew comparisons with powers exercised by previous Home Secretaries to set tariffs for live sentences. Is it right that you were making that comparison?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q You were. To be clear, do you agree that in fact the powers in the Bill are simply for the Home Secretary to make a referral to the Parole Board and that the assessment of dangerousness and decisions about release are made by the Parole Board, not the Home Secretary?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q But you accept that the decision is made by the independent Parole Board, not the Home Secretary.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q The referral is made by the Secretary of State, but the decision is made by the Parole Board—that is the critical point. Will you confirm that your understanding is the same as mine: that the release will be delayed only if the Parole Board make an assessment of dangerousness? So, were we not to bring forward this measure, it would open up the possibility that dangerous prisoners might be released into the community before the end of their sentence, by which I mean the total sentence.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Although of course it is possible to undertake rehabilitative activities in prison. Is the judgment that we are discussing here not one that can be exercised by the Parole Board? The Parole Board might choose to have a prisoner serve the totality of their sentence in prison, but equally the Parole Board might choose to allow a release that is after the automatic release point but before the end of the sentence, still allowing the period on licence. Whether there is a period on licence would be a matter over which the Parole Board would have discretion by virtue of the time at which it decided release was appropriate.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q But of course, by exercising that power it would be preventing the release of a dangerous prisoner. I think the shadow Minister quoted—he may have mentioned it again today, and he certainly mentioned it previously—some commentary by third parties that later release is somehow inherently unjust or represents a deviation from the sentence handed down by the court. However, is it not the case that the sentence handed down by the court is the total sentence, and that the release point is essentially the administration of that sentence? Following the passage of the Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Act 2020, the High Court held last year that moving the release point was lawful, because it fell within the envelope of the original sentence. Would you agree with the High Court’s analysis of that situation—that it is lawful and consistent with human rights and common law?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. For clarity, the Secretary of State makes a referral, but the decision is made by the Parole Board. I want to be absolutely clear on that point.
Let me move on. I want to ask a question to all the panellists, so perhaps the answers could be relatively brief, given that I am sure we are under time pressure. We had some debate some time ago in this session about the appropriateness of imposing minimum sentences, whereby Parliament specifies in statute that if someone is convicted of a particular offence, there is a minimum period of time that they must be sentenced to in prison, regardless of the facts of the individual case, and regardless of any discretion that the judge may wish to exercise. Can each panel member give the Committee their views on the appropriateness, generally, of statutory minimum sentences?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Briefly, please.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
We have got three minutes.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Do not all speak at once, but one of you please speak.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Would you also apply that analysis if the offence was something of the utmost gravity, such as rape?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Again, would you apply that analysis even in cases of exceptional seriousness, such as rape?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Dr Bild, last but not least.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much, panel. Have a happy Thursday evening and a great Friday, working into the weekend.
Examination of witnesses
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Colleagues, we now move on to our final panel. It is scheduled to end at 5.45 pm, but it is starting five minutes early. It is up to you when it ends, but it was scheduled for 45 minutes. If you want to take it to an hour, that is up to you, but it was scheduled for 45 minutes, and it could end earlier than that.
We will now hear from Professor Colin Clark from the University of the West of Scotland, Oliver Feeley-Sprague, programme director for military, security and police at Amnesty International UK, and Gracie Bradley, interim director of Liberty. In the order I have introduced you, could you each say hello and tell us who you are, in no longer than 10 seconds?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you all. I also thank you all for joining us early. It was really kind of you to give up part of your day to let us talk to you a few minutes before we had scheduled. Right, Mr Anderson would like to ask a question.
Lee Anderson (Conservative, Ashfield)
My phone has been pinging all day. We have an unauthorised Traveller camp just set up in the constituency of Ashfield. With that comes lots of problems. We know from experience that there will be an increase in crime locally tonight. We will see sheds getting broke into. We will see a little bit of intimidating behaviour in the local neighbourhood. Probably, pub landlords will have a tough time as well. There will be some fly-tipping. The list goes on and on. It is a big problem, not just in Ashfield, but all over the country. The Bill sort of addresses that and it is great news for my residents.Q
I surveyed 1,000 people in my constituency earlier this year. I will run through a couple of the questions I asked. The first question was: do you think the Travelling community respect the rights of the local community when they set up camp in your area? Only 4% said yes. I asked: do you think the Home Secretary is right when she said that we need to give our police tougher measures to stop unauthorised camps? Only 3% said no. I am not going to run through all the questions, but the last one I will give you is this: do you think crime rises in the area when an illegal camp is set up? Some 92% of my residents said yes.
The Bill is great news, because what it will do is see a decrease in crime the four or five times a year when unauthorised camps are set up in my community. I would like to ask the witnesses whether they agree with me that crime will reduce in places such as Ashfield because of the new measures in the Bill to stop unauthorised camps. It is a yes or no answer.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you to our panel for turning up early. I want to give you an opportunity to tell us anything you like about your views on the powers for policing protests in the Bill. Are they necessary? What impact will their use have if the provisions are enacted?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
We will go in reverse order. Gracie first, then Oliver and Colin.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Good afternoon. On both topics, you have set out your stall really well, so I do not really have much to add—[Interruption.] Was that a “Hear, hear” from the Minister? In response to the points raised by the hon. Member for Ashfield about unauthorised encampments, you made the point that there can be victims of crime, and that there are existing laws already in place to deal with the antisocial behaviour and criminal activity that you might come across.
In terms of protests, it is completely reasonable for the police, particularly in London, to say, “We have these enormous protests that last for several days. They may well be peaceful, but the city grinds to a halt. Is the balance of power right in this setting?” That is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, and there are different views about what the answer is. You have all made your views clear on the Bill, and I agree, but do you think there is anything reasonable that should be done, perhaps not through the Bill but in other ways? There are lots of different practices that could be looked at. Does any of you have a response to the charge that there are protests that last for days and cause significant disruption, and what are we to do about that?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q I have one final question, but do not feel that you have to answer if it is not something you have considered. Obviously, in the last year or so we have been under very draconian legislation—necessarily, because of covid. A lot of the debates that we have had, and the discourse about protest, have been within that context. The vigil for Sarah Everard, the Black Lives Matter debate and so on were all under that umbrella of what is healthy and permissible under covid legislation. Do you think we are slightly in a muddle because of that, and that if we had not had the covid legislation, all those protests would probably have gone ahead and been managed in a perfectly reasonable way, and would not necessarily have been an issue?