Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Public Bill Committee, 18 May 2021.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. First, let me ask you to switch any electronic devices off or to silent mode. I remind you that Mr Speaker does not allow tea or coffee to be consumed during sittings of this Committee. This is really difficult, but you have to try to observe the social distancing arrangements and sit only in the places that are marked. I ask you to wear a face mask when you are not speaking, unless you are medically exempt. Space is a bit tight in this room, so people just have to observe social distancing and try to make it as easy for people as possible as they are moving around.
Today we will consider, first, the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and then a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions, before the oral evidence session. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take all those matters without debate. Before we hear evidence from our first panel, we will have a short briefing from the Parliamentary Digital Service on cyber-security, which is of particular concern to members of this Committee because we are dealing with matters relating to the police and criminal law. The programme motion was discussed on Monday by the Programming Sub-Committee for this Bill.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 18 May) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 18 May;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 20 May;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 25 May;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 27 May;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 8 June;
(f) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 10 June;
(g) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 15 June;
(h) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 17 June;
(i) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 22 June;
(j) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 24 June;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
Date
Time
Witness
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 10.30 am
The National Police Chiefs’ Council
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 11.25 am
The Police Superintendents’ Association; The Police Federation of England and Wales
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 2.45 pm
The Centre for Justice Innovation; The Centre for Social Justice
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 3.30 pm
Jonathan Hall QC, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation; HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 4.15 pm
Local Government Association; The Association of Police and Crime Commissioners
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 4.45 pm
Doughty Street Chambers; Garden Court Chambers
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 5.15 pm
Youth Justice Board
Tuesday 18 May
Until no later than 5.45 pm
The Bar Council
Thursday 20 May
Until no later than 12.15 pm
National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders; Unlock
Thursday 20 May
Until no later than 1 pm
The Victims’ Commissioner
Thursday 20 May
Until no later than 2.45 pm
The Children’s Society; Community Justice Scotland
Thursday 20 May
Until no later than 3.30 pm
The Association of Youth Offending Team Managers
Thursday 20 May
Until no later than 4.15 pm
The Law Society
Thursday 20 May
Until no later than 5 pm
Howard League for Penal Reform; Criminal Justice Alliance; Women in Prison; Sentencing Academy
Thursday 20 May
Until no later than 5.45 pm
Professor Colin Clark, University of the West of Scotland; Amnesty International UK; Liberty
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 10, Schedule 1, Clause 11, Schedule 2, Clauses 12 to 42, Schedule 3, Clause 43, Schedule 4, Clauses 44 to 47, Schedule 5, Clauses 48 to 51, Schedule 6, Clauses 52 to 66, Schedule 7, Clauses 67 to 73, Schedule 8, Clause 74, Schedule 9, Clauses 75 to 97, Schedule 10, Clauses 98 to 100, Schedule 11, Clauses 101 to 127, Schedule 12, Clause 128, Schedule 13, Clause 129, Schedule 14, Clauses 130 to 134, Schedule 15, Clause 135, Schedule 16, Clauses 136 to 156, Schedule 17, Clauses 157 to 161, Schedule 18, Clauses 162 to 168, Schedule 19, Clauses 169 to 171, Schedule 20, Clauses 172 to 176, new Clauses, new Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Thursday 24 June
The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), and I are both delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I welcome to the Committee my hon. Friends, on the Government Benches, and hon. Members across the room. I am sure that we can expect some lively debates in the days and weeks of scrutiny ahead.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be circulated to members by email and made available in the Committee Room.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
If everyone is agreed, we will go into a private session for the briefing on cyber-security and to discuss the lines of questioning. Time is very tight, so we will allow five minutes for the presentation and, if there are any obvious questions, a few minutes for that. If people have things that they want to follow up, I ask them to do that separately with the PDS; otherwise we are just eating into the Committee’s time.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I want to check how members of the respective parties want to handle the questions. We have our first panel until 10.30 am; they will all be giving evidence by video today. It is slightly harder since we are not sitting in our usual formed lines, but my assumption is that I should simply alternate between members of the respective parties and allow enough time for the Minister and the Front-Bench spokespersons to come in towards the end. Are you happy with that?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Obviously, you can either use the questions that are on the brief that you have been given, but there is no objection to your asking your own questions. However, the questions must relate to the content of the Bill; we do not want any flights of fancy from anyone. I hope that makes perfect sense.
Also, if anyone has anything that they need to declare, I hope that they will be kind enough to do that.
I think that covers all the preliminary business. I am conscious that it is difficult to be called with the arrangement in the room, so if you want to be called, just indicate that to me. And if you are sitting at the back, there is a microphone there, so that you will be heard properly. If anyone is having any terrible difficulties, let me know.
Otherwise, if you are happy to proceed, I will call the first panel of witnesses: Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt, the chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council; and Chief Constable BJ Harrington, the NPCC lead for public order and public safety.
Examination of Witnesses
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Q Do you want to make a brief opening statement? I am conscious of time; we only have until 10.30 am. If there is anything vital that you want to say, we can hear it and then I will go to questioning from the Committee.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you. I call Sarah Champion to ask the first question.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Good morning, everyone. I want to ask a question specifically relating to the police covenant. I am concerned about the level of support for officers dealing with the trauma of having to investigate child abuse cases, and also the knock-on impact that that will have on the survivors. What mandatory training do you have at the moment?Q
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Are there any risks or concerns that you would have if that training became mandatory for all officers as part of the police covenant?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Chief Constable Harrington, do you have anything to add?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I call Robert Goodwill. By the way, Members are free to take their jackets off if they feel so inclined.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Thank you, Chair. We have seen the police over recent months, and indeed over the last couple of years, having great difficulty in policing some protests, such as Extinction Rebellion protests, that have been disruptive to people in their everyday lives, stopping people getting to work and getting to hospital and, more recently the protests that have been conducted despite the covid restrictions and regulations. How will the provisions in the Bill help you to better police these protests? Do you feel there is a risk that if we go too far it could undermine the trust between the police and the general public and the right that we all hold dear to demonstrate and make our views known? At the same time, we must respect the rights of other people to conduct their everyday lives.Q
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Do you feel that the Bill goes far enough in giving you power? Many other countries, for example, use water cannon to deal with that type of demonstration and disruptive activities. Have the Government put enough tools in the Bill, or would you have liked to have seen more?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q During the Extinction Rebellion protests, we saw people taking the law into their own hands and, for example, pulling protestors off the roofs of tube trains. Do you feel that, with these provisions, the public will be less likely to feel they need to intervene to ensure they can carry out their ordinary lives, with the police powerless to do so?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Is there anything you want to add, Mr Hewitt?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you. I call Maria Eagle.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Thank you, Mr McCabe. People in this country have a right to peaceful protest, and it is tremendously important that it is kept. You have acknowledged that in your earlier answers, but if there is a peaceful protest or picket happening outside a business or a premises, how will you ensure that police officers on the scene know what the balance ought to be? How will you ensure that this is properly policed, so that people’s rights are not infringed?Q
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q The Good Law Project is concerned that, in effect,
“entire classes or types of protests”
will be prohibited and that the bar for what will constitute significant disruption to the community, which is a woolly phrase—what does that consist of?—will be set at a low level, which will infringe on people’s rights to protest peacefully. What do you think about this, and what is your understanding of the definition of serious annoyance?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Have any of you ever policed a protest or been involved in policing a large protest that has been peaceful, or otherwise, and that has not been noisy?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Are you telling me that those protests have all been noisy or that some of them were not noisy?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally, if there is a small one-person picket outside a shop for a particular reason, or a very small collection of people with a legitimate reason to protest or picket at a site, can you reassure me that those protests will be allowed to go ahead?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Thank you. And finally, finally, did you ask the Government for these powers?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I will come to Allan Dorans in a second, but in the interest of balance we will go first to Antony Higginbotham first.
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
What impact has social media had on public order and protests over the last 10 or so years? Historically, with large protests, you would have had a set of organisers that you could go and engage with, but perhaps you do not have that same group of people now. What impact does that have on conditions? Historically, you might have been able to put conditions on protests, because you had people to engage with, but now, if a protest is organised organically on an online platform, you cannot do that. What impact have you seen from thatQ ?
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
Q That is very helpful. Thank you. Are there situations where you might get notice of, say, an assembly in one place, but then because of the impact of social media—WhatsApp and Facebook groups and things like that—that quickly becomes a procession? Is that the kind of thing we are talking about? Linked to that, can you envisage the conditions that you currently impose changing materially as a result of this Bill, or is this just about trying to marry the two things up because of the more fluid environment that you are policing?
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
Q One final question: Do you get the right level of engagement you need from the social media platforms themselves, thinking about closed online groups where you may not be able to get advance notice? Do you get that engagement when you need it?
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
That is very helpful, thank you.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Allan Dorans.
Allan Dorans (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Thank you, Mr McCabe. I shall take this opportunity to declare my interest in this matter as a former detective inspector in the Metropolitan police service. My question is about the introduction of serious violence reduction orders, which is a new court order allowing police officers to search without reasonable grounds those who have such an order against them. What criteria would you expect to see before application was made for such an order?Q
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you. I want to try to squeeze in one last Back-Bench question—Hywel Williams, could you make it brief, because I want to get to the Front Benches.
Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)
Thank you, Mr McCabe. I just have one question. The responsibility for key agencies locally in Wales is a matter for the Welsh Senedd—social services, housing, the environment, planning, childcare, those sorts of matters—whereas policing is an England and Wales matter. Is that at all problematic, particularly as public policy might diverge as the Senedd passes more law in respect of those particular agencies which are its own responsibility? I am thinking, really, in terms of information sharing and the formulation of joint strategies locally between the police and other agencies.Q
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Let us switch to those on the Front Bench. I will go to the Opposition first. I call Sarah Jones. You have about 10 minutes.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
It is good to see you both, I thought I was going to see you in person, finally, but no. Thank you for everything you have been doing this year. It has been a difficult year with covid, and the police have done an incredible job. Thank you for that.Q
I have some quick-fire questions first concerning several other issues in the Bill that we do not have time to go through in detail, so do not feel that you have to give long answers. On the police covenant—that we welcome—would you have liked to see other police officers included in the primary legislation, such as the British Transport police and the Ministry of Defence police? That question is to Martin.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Great, thank you. We do not have time to talk in detail about the duty in the Bill to prevent serious violence, but one of the issues raised with us is the problem of serious violence and the exploitation of vulnerable people, in particular through county lines, and the need to do more to tackle that. In your work to tackle county lines and exploitation, would a definition of child criminal exploitation be useful?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Moving on to unauthorised encampments, and the view of the NPCC that
“The solution to unauthorised encampments lies in the provision of sufficient lawful accommodation accompanied by closer working between the police, local authorities and all other public services.”
Will you expand on that view? Why did you come to that position? These are really quick-fire questions, sorry.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Thank you, that is really helpful. On the extraction of data from electronic devices, I have talked to several people in the police who are concerned about the lack of resources in policing at the moment to extract information from electronic devices, let alone in an increased sense. Can you expand on that issue and your resources for that task?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Can I remind you, if Mr Cunningham is coming in, that you are in the last two minutes of your time, so how you use it is up to you.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Can I ask one question on protest?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I am switching at twenty past.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q It is a very specific question. There has been a lot of talk in the debate about protests and the ability of, for example, ambulances to get to where they need to get to. Can we be clear—it is really important that we know what is in the law and what is not—what new powers does the Bill give to the police, for example under the provisions of the Highways Act 1980 or the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, to ensure that vehicles that need to get past can get past?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you. I have got to switch to the Minister, Victoria Atkins. If there is time, I will come back to Sarah Jones.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you. Like Sarah, I will try to ask quick questions and I would welcome quick answers. First, on the police covenant, I would like to clarify that the covenant applies to officers, staff and volunteers in the police service, and to those who have left as well as those currently serving. Is that correct?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q In relation to the serious violence duty, we all acknowledge that we cannot arrest our way out of the problem, particularly with the emergence of county lines. Do you welcome the efforts under the duty to get all the relevant local agencies, including local councils, health services and educational services, to work together to draw up a plan to prevent serious violence in their local areas?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Importantly, that also brings transparency to collective efforts to tackle serious violence, because the plans and processes will be transparent, and the public will be aware of what is happening locally.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q On public order, we heard mention earlier of the phrase “serious annoyance” in clause 59. That brings the common law offence of public nuisance on to the statute book. Chief Constable, could you help us understand why the police want us to put that common law offence on to the statute book? Could you also explain the derivation of the wording, particularly that phrase “serious annoyance”? In other words, the history of the common law offence of public nuisance over many centuries has included that phrase. It may not mean the same in legal terms as it does in common parlance.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
To clarify, that phrasing has derived not from Home Office officials or Ministers dreaming it up on the back of an envelope; it follows many centuries of legal development, culminating in the 2015 report by the Law Commission.Q
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
My final question is on the extraction of information from digital devices. Particularly in the context of sexual offences, we have an understanding of the impact that searching and seizing digital devices, sometimes for very long periods of time, can have on complainants and their willingness to start and support the police in an investigation and on the attrition rate, where complainants withdraw from cases as they progress. What is your understanding of the framework and code of practice set out in the Bill? What will that do to help complainants in future, particularly in relation to sexual offences, although it will apply across the board?Q
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr McCabe. I join other members of the Committee in thanking the police for their service in the difficult circumstances over the past year.Q
I have two brief questions. The first relates to the proposed increase in the penalty for assaulting an emergency worker from 12 months to two years. Does the police service welcome that change? Do they think that it will potentially deter people from attempting to assault officers in the discharge of their duties?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
We completely agree, thank you. My final question relates to out of court disposals. There are proposals in this Bill to simplify the number of out of court disposals from six to two. That has been trialled, I think, in three forces over the past few years—
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Order. Minister, I am very sorry to interrupt you, but we are out of time. We will have to save that question for another witness or another occasion. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the Committee’s allotted time to ask questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee. Apologies, Minister, but we are on a pretty tight schedule.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
We now hear from Chief Superintendent Paul Griffiths, president of the Police Superintendents’ Association of England and Wales, and John Apter, chair of the Police Federation of England and Wales. We have until 11.25 am for this session. Can I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record, please, gentlemen?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you. I think we will try to follow the same pattern as before. I will try to get Back Benchers in first, and then I will allow about 10 minutes each for the Front Benchers.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Mr McCabe, may I start by apologising for my tardiness? It is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship. The strange surroundings threw me. I do apologise for that.
Can I ask of our witnesses the same question that I asked of the chiefs? In the police covenant, would it help and support your members if there were mandatory provision at the very beginning of training and all the way through to support you on a psychological level? I am very aware that you are the first people on many occasions to see some hugely traumatic situations. I am particularly thinking, on child abuse, of the amount of time that police officers have to invest in seeing some pretty horrific things. Should we put in the police covenant mandatory training and support for officers to deal with that trauma?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q The Bill, as it stands, is a working document. If you were able to draft amendments specifically to provide more support for victims of crime, what would you both like to see in it?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Do you have the resources to do that at the moment?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. And from the Federation’s point of view?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I think we had better move on. I call Robert Goodwill.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Mr Apter, I would like to ask you a little about police drivers. The general public understand that from time to time, those driving police cars will need to break the speed limit, disregarding signals, pedestrian crossings and so on, but I understand that the Police Federation has been campaigning for more clarification in the law for those situations, to protect drivers who were acting in the public interest when something has, unfortunately, gone wrong. Could you give me a bit more information on why you think those changes might be needed?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Is it easy to define a situation when a police officer will disregard, for example, a speed limit? If there was a domestic incident, presumably there would be a judgment call as to whether a woman may be in danger, or whether it was just a case of getting there within the law. Is it difficult to define when a police officer can use that discretion—I suppose that is the word—to break the speed limit?
I guess that with an ambulance and a fire engine, it is less nuanced, but with the police you would not necessarily know until you get to the scene whether life is at risk and whether it is necessary to speed there.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Perhaps Mr Griffiths might want to add to that, although it was a fairly comprehensive answer.
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q May I ask you both whether the new powers for policing protest contained in the Bill are necessary, and do you welcome them?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Mr Apter, do you have anything to add from the federation’s point of view?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Do you have any view on the impact of the use of these powers on the important relationship between the public and the police?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q People in this country have the right to protest peacefully. If the proposed changes are enacted, what will you be able to do to ensure that the public do not lose the right to protest peacefully—that it is not impinged upon by the changes in legislation that are proposed in the Bill?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Mr Apter, do you have anything to add from the federation’s point of view?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Q Finally, you have both expressed the view that the policing of the coronavirus regulations over the last year has increased the strain that is felt between the police and the public, for understandable reasons. If they are enacted, do you think that the changes in respect of policing protest will improve that relationship or make it harder?
Maria Eagle (Labour, Garston and Halewood)
Thank you very much.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Mr Griffiths, is there anything you want to add?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Special constables are a much-loved part of our communities and are respected by everybody, including by the force. The Bill amends the Police Act 1996, which does not permit the specials to be part of the Police Federation. What would that mean to specials? What is your view of the specials as part of the force? Are they supportive of that changeQ ?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Q One quick point: we heard from our previous witnesses about the rise of assaults on emergency workers. That is a key part of the Bill, which has really captured the imagination and support of the public. I am interested in your experiences. How important is that part of the Bill? Does it go far enough?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
We will go to Mr Dorans. This had best be the last question before I go to the Front Benches.
Allan Dorans (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q The hon. Member for Stroud eloquently asked the question that I was going to ask about special constables. However, I will ask Mr Apter, who spoke recently on the importance of the mental health of officers. What else could be included in the police covenant to help with this?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Chief Superintendent.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q It is lovely to see you both. It is a measure of the maturity of both your organisations that you have a good working relationship with Government and the Opposition, and we will all try to make this piece of legislation better.
You have just made exactly the point that I was going to ask you about, on the importance of the police family and the wider family as part of the police covenant. Can I push you both a bit on the notion of independence from the Government when we are looking at the covenant? What could that look like? Would there be a benefit of some oversight from policing bodies, perhaps chaired independently, on the covenant report that is produced by the Home Secretary? Would you both welcome that?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Thank you for the campaigning work that you have done to get us to the point of getting the covenant actioned. It is great.
Can I ask Paul about pre-charge bail? What are your thoughts about breach of bail, which we have talked about previously? We are finding our way through that with this piece of legislation. How do you think that would work in an ideal world?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
That is really helpful; thank you. Shall I go over to Alex? I am aware of the time.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
You have got time to squeeze one in.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
How confident are you that the proposed two-tier system of cautions will be practical for police officers to apply and effective in controlling crime? What disadvantages do you see in the abolition of the simple caution?Q
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
That would be fine. Thank you.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Do you have anything to add, Mr Apter?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Okay; that is fine.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you to you both for all the work that your organisations have done in the past 12 months and, in particular, in relation to the police covenant in the Bill, which I think is welcomed by everybody. Mr Apter, how do you propose to support chief constables to ensure that the outcomes of the covenant are felt by all officers, former officers and staff, and their families?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you. Let me move on to protests, because Parliament is particularly interested in scrutinising those measures. Mr Griffiths, you mentioned gold and silver commanders, who are in charge of the police reaction to some protests. Could you give us a little more understanding of what those roles mean, the responsibilities they have, and the training and experience that those officers will have had before they are able to become gold and silver commanders?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Thank you.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Minister Philp?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. Based on your response to Alex Cunningham’s question, you may not be able to answer this, but I wanted to double check. Do you have any view on the proposals to reform out-of-court disposals, in particular to simplify the current six kinds of caution down to two kinds of caution, which has been trialled in three force areas over the past few years?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you. In that case, my only other question relates to the proposal to double the sentence for the assault of an emergency worker from 12 months to 24 months. Do you welcome that, and do you think it would have a deterrent effect on people who might decide to try to assault your officers in the course of their duties?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Thank you. It may be worth you engaging with the Sentencing Council once the legislation passes, to ensure the sentencing guidelines reflect the seriousness of the offence, and that the sentences in practice reflect Parliament’s intention.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Now is a good time to draw this session to a close. I thank the witnesses for their evidence this morning.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Q 51 Our first panel of witnesses is Phil Bowen, director of the Centre for Justice Innovation, and Adrian Crossley, the head of criminal justice and addiction at the Centre for Social Justice. We have until 2.45 pm for this session. Will the witnesses introduce themselves for the record, please?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you.
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
Phil, for the benefit of the Committee, would you mind expanding a bit on the benefits of problem-solving courts?Q
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Still on the subject of problem-solving courts, I am concerned that the problem-solving courts do not include mental health. People with ADHD and neurodiverse and mental health conditions are over-represented in our prisons, so I wonder what Phil and Adrian have to say about how those issues can be resolved, and whether they think the problem-solving courts’ proposals need to be expanded.Q
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Adrian, would you like to go first?
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q A final question about limiting the use of child remand: do you think the provisions in the Bill go far enough?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
I would like to ask about the extension of categories of positions of trust. We have all been appalled by the way that some individuals have abused those positions, as football coaches, in gymnastics, in children’s homes or in the Catholic Church and other religious settings.Q
Currently, as I understand, clause 45 would extend those definitions and include anyone aged over 18 who supervises or works with 16 and 17-year-olds. I know from personal experience with my own family that, often, older children at a dance school, perhaps over 18, often chip in to help with tuition and coaching. In some cases, they may even be in the same class at school as a 17-year-old who is part of that dance academy. I wonder whether there could be difficulties in situations such as that. Indeed, we also remove the right to give consent from 16 and 17-year-olds who may find that infringes on their ability to choose who to have a relationship with. Perhaps Mr Crossly might be most appropriate to respond first.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q So you would not agree with those who might argue that a small number of perfectly proper relationships might be caught up in this and that we could end up with people being unnecessarily criminalised. That is not to undermine the points that we all agree with about people in positions of trust who exploit that. The question is whether a person’s right to give consent could be undermined by these changes in specific situations, particularly where an 18-year-old is at the same school or in the same class as a 17-year-old.
Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)
I have two questions. The first is on problem-solving courts. Are there potential structural problems where the courts fall under this place, under Westminster, whereas key agencies such as health and social services, higher education and further education and a host of others fall under a different legislature—that is, public policy made by the Senedd in CardiffQ ?
Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)
Q May I ask one other question briefly? Can you comment on the dangers of sentence inflation from the Bill, particularly when sentences across the board, as well as rates of incarceration, are higher in Wales than in England and when black, Asian and minority ethnic people are over-represented in Welsh prisons to an even greater degree than they are in England?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Two quick questions to the witnesses. If we brought in a definition of child criminal exploitation, do you think that would help or hinder the police and support for victimsQ ?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Can I ask for your comments on special measures in court? I am thinking of witnesses being able to give evidence remotely, which at the moment is at the discretion of a judge. If there were a presumption that a vulnerable witness had an automatic right to those measures, do you think that that would help or hinder securing justice?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you. I am hoping this could be one of the benefits we get out of the covid experience. Adrian, any comments?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
That is very reassuring.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
I have a number of questions across different areas, so short answers would be appreciated. First, Phil touched on the disproportionate impact on specific communities of minimum custodial sentences. Do you think the Government have given enough consideration to this aspect of the criminal justice system?Q
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q That is helpful. I will move on to cautions. Do you have any concerns about the new two-tier system of cautions?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q So the simple caution should remain?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q It has been suggested that the community caution requires a formal admission of guilt. Evidence suggests that offenders from a BAME background are far less likely to admit guilt than a white offender. Could the requirement of a formal admission mean that BAME offenders miss out on the benefits of a caution?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
That is helpful. Can I—
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I am afraid I have to strike a balance and I have to switch to the Minister, for his questions. I am sorry.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Thank you, Mr McCabe. To pick up on the questions asked by the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) about minimum sentences, we have minimum sentences in very rare circumstances at present. Can you give the Committee your views about the pros and cons or the considerations we should have in mind if any proposals are made to increase the range of circumstances or offences to which minimum sentences might be applied?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Or the risks. What are your views about the principles of the possibility?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q In relation to the proposals to make curfews potentially longer and more flexible, do you think that will make community sentences potentially more effective and might, furthermore, potentially reduce reoffending?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Thank you. I was going to ask about problem-solving courts, but I think that was covered adequately in earlier questions. I think Minister Atkins has some questions.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q This is a quick question for Mr Crossley. The CSJ has obviously done a lot of work over the years on gang crime and on the many levers we can try to use to address it. What is the CSJ’s view of serious violence reduction orders, namely the piloting of stop-and-search orders for known—in other words, convicted—knife offenders aged over 18?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
As it is 2.45 pm, we had better call this session to an end. I thank the witnesses for the evidence they have given to the Committee.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Q We are now going to hear from Jonathan Hall QC, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, and Matt Parr, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary and the Fire and Rescue Services. Again, this is a 45-minute session, so time is tight; we have until 3.30 pm for this session. May I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record, please?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you for clarifying that, Mr Parr.
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
Mr Parr, this one is probably for you. We spoke earlier today with some other witnesses about protest and public order policing. One of the things that we touched on was the impact that social media has had. So I just wondered if you could give your view of how protests and public order policing have changed over the last 20 or 30 years, and the impact that social media and the ability for situations to evolve quite rapidly have played into that.Q
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
Q That is helpful. Do you think that the proposals in the Bill will help with the first of the three points you raised?
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
That is helpful, thank you.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q This question is directed at Jonathan: the terrorist clauses in the Bill are welcome, and they seem comprehensive. Is there anything, in your opinion, that is missing that you would like to see there?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q I am not sure if either of you can comment on this, but I particularly welcome pre-charge bail being on the face of the Bill. The Minister and I discovered the chilling effects of the 2017 legislation. Will either of you say if the Committee ought to be mindful of any resource issue around pre-charge bail or release under investigation?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Jonathan, could you outline your findings from the Fishmongers’ Hall inquiry to help the flavour of the Committee’s conversation? I think we are all in the same place on what is in the Bill, but it would be useful to hear that from you.Q
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
You froze. You were saying, “to make it easier”.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Taken together with the measures in the Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Act 2021, you have said that potentially there is nothing more legally to do—we cannot guarantee that these changes would have prevented what happened, obviously—but you did mention a couple of concerns in a bit of the detail of two of the powers. Would you like to expand on that?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q In March, I think you said there was no proof that the desistance and disengagement programme for released terrorists was working. Do you think the Government have taken any steps to address that? Is there anything in the Bill that addresses that point?
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q This question is for Matt. In the “Getting the balance right?” report, the conclusion was a modest reset of the scales. There is a disagreement as to whether the Bill is modest. Can you appreciate the arguments that have come from many organisations that the breadth of powers in the Bill could have two impacts? The first is that it is not a modest reset, but quite a significant one, potentially going too far in the other direction. Secondly, you talked about the blame that the police have received on social media for decisions on protest. I completely agree. Given the breadth of powers in the Bill, is it possible that the police might be more likely to be seen to be making decisions that are subjective or political or whatever it might be, because we as legislators are not clear enough on what the police should and should not be doing in those situations?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Clause 108 grants the Secretary of State the power to prevent the automatic release of prisoners who are considered to be a significant public protection concern. Some experts have expressed concern that the clause could create a cliff edge whereby an offender prevented from being automatically released would be released at the end of their term without licence. Can you confirm that that is what you understand by this? If that is the case, would it not put civilians at greater risk?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Sorry, can I stop you there? Can you explain the parole role in this, because my understanding was that it would not actually happen?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q The Bill vests that responsibility in the Secretary of State. He is the person to make the decision, not the Parole Board.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Can I give you a quote from the Prison Reform Trust? It said in its briefing:
“Making release from custody discretionary, and contemplating the possibility that the period in custody could be doubled as a result, is not some minor alteration in the administration of a sentence. It is retrospective sentencing by the executive, a form of internment, circumventing the judicial process and all the protections it confers.”
Do you think the changes to automatic release have any constitutional implications?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Q Is it not a matter for the courts, or a judge, to determine the sentence on an offender, rather than the Secretary of State accepting advice from the Parole Board?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Well—
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I am going to have to stop you there. I will switch to the Government side and Victoria Atkins.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you. First, Mr Hall, I would like to understand how the measures relating to MAPPA in clause 162 will improve public protection and the management of terrorist offenders.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
In other words, dealing with the reality presented by a very small number of the most dangerous offenders—dealing with that reality, rather than being constrained by the fact that they committed a fraud offence in the past, rather than a terrorist offence.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you. May I clarify something, Mr Parr? Please forgive me if this was my mishearing or misunderstanding. You asked a series of questions in relation to the public order measures and at one point, I think, used “significant”, rather than “serious”. You said that HMIC had looked at the risk of serious disruption and so on. Is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I must confess that I cannot see that wording—perhaps we can take this up afterwards. Clause 55(6) talks about
“serious disruption to the activities of an organisation”,
or,
“serious disruption to the life of the community.”
That is the wording in clause 54 as well. As you will understand, clauses 54 and 55 are about ensuring consistency between moving protest and static protest. We heard from police witnesses this morning that one can flow into the other very easily, and back again.
May I also ask about clause 59? That places the common law offence of public nuisance on the statute book. Does the inspectorate have any views on that, or has it made any recommendations on it previously?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Thank you very much indeed.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q May I start by asking Matt Parr if you have any views on the proposals for out-of-court disposals, in particular to simplify the current number of out-of-court disposals, cautions and so on from six down to two, following the pilot that took place in three force areas?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Not to worry; no problem at all.
Let me turn to Jonathan, if I may, going back to clause 108, which Alex Cunningham was asking about. This is in relation to prisoners sentenced for non-terrorist offences who are deemed to become high risk in the course of their sentence. To clarify, is your understanding of the clause the same as mine—that the Secretary of State does not have the power to unilaterally ask for their prolonged incarceration, but instead the Secretary of State simply has a power to refer the prisoner to the Parole Board, which will then make the assessment of dangerousness? It is the Parole Board that makes the decision, not the Secretary of State; the Secretary of State simply refers. Is that your understanding as well?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q I think Mr Cunningham said that the Secretary of State took the decision, so I was simply seeking to clarify that the Secretary of State refers but the Parole Board decides. Mr Cunningham also made a point about the prospect of longer incarceration, and he quoted the Prison Reform Trust. Jonathan, can you confirm that no one can stay in prison for longer than the sentence handed down by the judge? What this is simply doing is potentially removing the release point, and removing the release point within a sentence— a sentence handed down by the judge that cannot be exceeded—is considered lawful and compatible with ECHR and other rights. Indeed, we have done it before, have we not, in changing the automatic release provisions in previous legislation?
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q Exactly, and this would have a similar effect. I was the Bill Minister for that Bill, and I was delighted that the High Court found our legislation to be lawful and compatible with human rights.
The final point that Mr Cunningham raised was in relation to the potential for a cliff edge if somebody serves all of their sentence in prison and is not released early. He referred to the possibility of a cliff edge, which exists in various other contexts that you have referred to already. Am I right in saying that if the Government, the security services or the authorities are concerned about the risk that a particular prisoner might pose following release if they were released without licence conditions because they had served all of the sentence, it would be open to the security services, acting through the Secretary of State for the Home Department, to apply for a TPIM if they felt the threshold was met? That would be one option available if they wanted to manage risk, accepting that TPIMs are rarely used.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
That is an option. That is extremely helpful clarification.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Does anyone else have any questions?
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
I misunderstood the line about the role of the Parole Board. I was concerned about what happens beyond the completion of the sentence. As the Minister says, the TPIM is used only in extremely rare circumstances, and it was unclear when that would apply and when it would not apply. Again, my concern is the cliff edge—somebody being released into the community without any licence conditions or further restrictions on their movements.
Chris Philp (Conservative, Croydon South)
Q To clarify, the serving of the full sentence is a matter for the Parole Board. It is open to the Parole Board to choose to release the prisoner after the automatic release point but before the end of the sentence, in which case there would be a period on licence between the release point and the end of the sentence. It does not follow automatically that they would be released with no licence period following, although it is possible.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
rose—
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Hang on a second. I think we are supposed to be taking evidence from our witnesses. Do you want to answer that, Mr Hall?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q As the witnesses are talking about parole, I have a specific question. Do you think there should be an assumption that victims are able to give either written or verbal statements to the Parole Board about the implications of its decision?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Are there any further questions? It appears not. In that case, I thank you both very much for your evidence.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Q We will now hear from Councillor Nesil Caliskan, chair of the Local Government Association’s Safer and Stronger Communities Board; David Lloyd, Police and Crime Commissioner for Hertfordshire and criminal justice lead for the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners; and Alison Hernandez, Police and Crime Commissioner for Devon, Cornwall and Isles of Scilly, and roads policing lead for the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. We have until 4.15 for this session. Would the witnesses introduce themselves for the record, please?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
We are having a bit of a sound problem here. Could you repeat that, Councillor Caliskan?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
While we straighten out the sound, let us go to Mr Lloyd.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you very much. We are trying to straighten things out with Councillor Caliskan’s sound—hopefully we can get that sorted—but we will proceed because of time. I call Ian Levy.
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
Q Over recent years, we have seen more demonstrations in cities. Could the panel give me their views about that, and how intimidating it can be to local communities—people who want to live their everyday lives? Do you agree that a balance has to be struck between people who want to demonstrate peacefully and other people who do these prolonged demonstrations? I would value your opinion.
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
Thank you. Councillor Caliskan?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Are you able to bring your face closer to the microphone or bring the microphone closer to your mouth? I think that would help.
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
A little bit.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Okay, try now.
Ian Levy (Conservative, Blyth Valley)
A community is a community, and free speech should be exactly that—not about the person who can shout the loudest or bang the biggest drum.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q My first questions are to the councillor. We might need to follow up in writing—I am a bit deaf, I am afraid. I am very aware of the multi-agency work that happens between local authorities and the police, but I am also aware of the unequal distribution of resources to do that sort of work, with local authorities often having their statutory duty, meaning that they have to pick up the brunt of the work without necessarily additional resources coming their way. Are there things in the Bill that give you and your members concern with regard to the resource implications for local authorities?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q That is very interesting, thank you. Alison, I have a particular interest in road safety because I have a smart motorway running through my patch. That is not covered in the Bill and—I have looked—I cannot see scope for getting it into the Bill. From a road safety perspective, are there other areas that we could add to the Bill that would make a difference?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
On unauthorised encampments, I am sure all the MPs in the room receive a mixed bag of correspondence on this issue.Q
I am very interested in this issue and there are two parts to my question. First, do you think that the existing powers under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 are sufficient to address the issues that arise from unauthorised encampments for communities that are affected? If not, do you think that this Bill goes some way to fill any gaps that have been identified and raised by a number of different groups?
Separately, regarding local authorities, I think it is little-known that local authorities are actually required to find space for Travellers’ sites, transit sites and authorised encampments. Do you have examples of local authority areas that are doing that alongside communities and the police, and it is working well? And what more can local authorities do?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Who do you want to start with?
Siobhan Baillie (Conservative, Stroud)
Alison Hernandez. Thank you.
Allan Dorans (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
The Bill introduces offensive weapons homicide reviews. What do you see as a rationale for holding only reviews where offensive weapons are involved? Why is the focus on this type of weapon and is there not a danger that those who have lost loved ones to other causes or other methods will feel that their loss is less valuable than others? That is to anyone who wishes to answer that. I think we will start with Councillor Caliskan, please. [Interruption.]
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I think we have lost you again, councillor. Shall we go to someone else while we see if we can sort this out?
Allan Dorans (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Mr Lloyd?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Let us try Councillor Caliskan again.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Q I have just one question, about youth remand. I want to ask what assessments people have made about the remand to local authority accommodation for children and, in particular, for Councillor Caliskan, what constraints she feels that she or her authority has in offering such accommodation.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Councillor, I am very sorry to interrupt you. Is it possible to bring the mouthpiece closer to your mouth? We are really struggling to hear you.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Let us try.
Bambos Charalambous (Labour, Enfield, Southgate)
Do Alison or David have any insights? I imagine not, but if they do I am happy to hear from them.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Commissioner Hernandez, do you have anything you want to add?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Mr Goodwill, have you got a short one you want to squeeze in?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q It is a quick follow-up to the points on illegal occupation of land. We see a situation where Travellers purchase land and then occupy it—they obviously do not plan to travel a great deal more—and it becomes a planning issue rather than one of trespass and occupation. I cannot see anything in the Bill that would address that. I know that the planning process can be protracted. Could more be done in that area? Perhaps Mr Lloyd might comment.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Thank you.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I think we can allow each side of the Committee seven or eight minutes.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q I know all three of you are incredibly busy doing very important jobs, so thank you for giving us the time today. I want to talk about the duty to tackle serious violence and the view in the consultation among some people in the police and local government that it was perhaps better to go down the route of enhancing and building on community safety partnerships, as opposed to this new layer of multi-agency collaboration. Obviously there is not one way that works better than any of the others, but can you talk through some of the challenges of how you get organisations to work together? We envisage a public health approach to tackling serious violence, where everybody comes together to look at the evidence and what the violence issues are in the area and works out ways to prevent them. Any one of you can go first.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
Q Okay. Nesil, we have sort of had this conversation already about unauthorised encampments. The view from the police organisations that gave evidence today, and others I have spoken to, is that the existing legislation is sufficient; what is insufficient is the provision of sites for people, and you cannot enforce without there being places for people to go. The number of permanent sites has gone down over the last few years. What needs to happen to ensure that local authorities can increase the number of permanent pitches for Gypsies and Travellers in their area?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I think we will switch to the ministerial side of the Committee.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q On the subject of unauthorised encampments, can you give us any insight about the harms and costs caused by unauthorised encampments in your local areas?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Exactly.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Just to assist the Committee, clause 61 focuses on the conditions whereby this offence can be committed. The phrases “significant damage”, “significant disruption” and “significant distress” appear to cover the descriptions given by Commissioner Hernandez and Commissioner Lloyd.
On the serious violence duty, where the Government are requiring local agencies to work together to draw together plans to tackle serious violence in their local areas, I am happy to reassure Commissioner Lloyd that clause 13 very much views police and crime commissioners and mayors with policing powers as having a convening role in that. What value do you think will be gained in your local areas from requiring these organisations—vital as they are, in their many ways, in tackling the serious violence that we hope to prevent—to get around a table and work together with schools and educational establishments, in particular, to ensure that we prevent serious violence?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Very briefly, please, because we are almost out of time.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I think we had better leave it there.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Order. We will stop, because we are out of time. I am sorry, Councillor Caliskan, but we have a very tight schedule today. I thank the witnesses for their evidence, and I thank Councillor Caliskan for persevering with some of the sound problems.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Q We will now move on to our sixth panel of witnesses. We have 30 minutes. Could I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record, please?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q From a human rights perspective, are any groups disproportionately discriminated against in the Bill?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Thank you very much. To focus on the protest aspect of the Bill, do you think that the terminology around protest is simple enough for protesters to understand, or could it lead to confusion? Again, I will start with Adam, please.
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Q Have you done any analysis on how the measures, particularly the sentencing measures, will impact on women, children and primary carers?
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
That is very lax of you, but we will pass.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Is there anything you wanted to add, Mr Willers?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you. Robert Goodwill.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Thank you, Chair. As a layman, I was not aware that terms that are understood more widely in the community have specific legal meanings and definitions. What benefit is there in codifying the common-law offence of public nuisance into statute? Does it clarify the situation or help? Or would you be critical of that suggestion? Perhaps Mr Willers could answer.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Mr Willers, I was going to ask whether you thought that as cases come to court and we get more case law, some of these definitions might become more clearly defined and could be referred to if they go to appeal or even to higher courts, so we might see clearer definitions as we use this law in practice.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
I think—
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
We will move on. I call Sarah Jones. You have about six minutes.