Advanced Research and Invention Agency Bill

Public Bill Committee, 14 April 2021.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. Hon. Members will understand the need to respect social distancing guidance. In line with the House of Commons Commission decision, face coverings should be worn in Committee unless Members are speaking or medically exempt. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if Members emailed their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent mode. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.

Today, we will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. In view of the time available, I hope that we can take these matters formally, without debate. The programme motion was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

The deadline for amendments to be considered at the first two line-by-line sittings of the Committee, on Tuesday 20 April, is the rise of the House tomorrow.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Members by email.

Examination of Witnesses

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Q1 Before we start hearing from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make declarations of interest in connection with the Bill? Nobody has given notice that they would like to do that. We will now hear oral evidence from Tris Dyson, managing director at Nesta Challenges, and Professor Dame Ottoline Leyser, chief executive officer of UK Research and Innovation. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we should stick to the timings in the programme order agreed by the Committee. We have until 10.25 am for the first witness session. Tris Dyson, please introduce yourself for the record.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Q Thank you. Professor Dame Ottoline Leyser, please introduce yourself for the record.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Given that this is my first contribution, may I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairship, Ms McVey? I look forward to working with all members of the Committee on the Bill, which is important for our future research and prosperity.Q

I welcome our two witnesses. I have one general question for both of you, given your broad range of experience in research and development: what is the problem that the Advanced Research and Invention Agency is fixing? Professor Dame Ottoline, do you have a clear understanding of the proposed working relationship between ARIA and UK Research and Innovation, and should that be put on a formal footing to provide clarity? Mr Dyson, Nesta Challenges is based on challenges, so what is the role of challenges and missions with regard to the work of ARIA in driving high-risk, high-reward research?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much for those responses. It is great to hear such support for our existing science base. A lot of the discussion around the Bill has been critical of the bureaucracy associated with current research, which has served us so well, particularly in this pandemic.

Both of your responses referred to the role of ARIA in looking at new areas, particularly having new areas of focus that may have been missed and addressing them in different ways. The document of intent that the Secretary of State published leaves the choice of areas of research or the overall mission to the programme managers rather than the chief executive of ARIA, whoever that might be. How will that address our country’s research needs, and do you think that the Secretary of State should have responsibility for identifying the overarching missions that ARIA looks at?

Dame Ottoline, there has been controversy with you over exempting ARIA from meeting freedom of information requests. UKRI meets freedom of information requests. Do you find them to be burdensome in going about your objectives, and what proportion of your budget is taken up by them? I will go to Tris first this time, if that is okay.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

I will stop there, because I know many Members have questions.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

I will go to the Minister, and then to Stephen. Can I have an indication—will Members put their hands up—of how many there are? That is four. If you want to ask another question, do you want to ask it now, or come back a little bit later?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

I will come back later, if that is okay.

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q May I say what a pleasure it is to be here under your chairmanship to discuss such an important subject, Ms McVey? I have two separate questions for both the witnesses. The first question, for Tris Dyson, is about funding mechanisms and how they support the R&D system. Do you have some examples of how a range of funding mechanisms support the R&D system?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you, that is really helpful. My next question is to Dame Ottoline. We acknowledge that there is clearly a role for ARIA, but I think it is important that it does not just fund the usual suspects. What are your thoughts on this? How will ARIA be able to target people and ideas that are not picked up through the current system, for example that UKRI is able to target?

Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)

Thank you Dame Ottoline and Mr Dyson for your answers so far, which have been incredibly informative and helpful. I want to pick up on a couple of things that you have said. You have both mentioned the benefits of a small, agile agency. I guess that raises the question of whether £800 million is a sufficient budget for that small, agile agency. To pick on something that you said, Mr Dyson, about ARIA being quite ruthless in terms of stopping the funding of things quite early on, what would you expect the failure level to be, and how do you expect us all to measure in a reasonable way the success or otherwise of ARIA?Q

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Thank you, Dame Ottoline. We have just under 20 minutes. Members need to be around the horseshoe to ask a question—there is a microphone on the corner. I will tell you the order in which I will ask questions, so those who are not in the horseshoe can get there. I will go to Daniel Zeichner first, Stephen Metcalfe second, Dawn Butler third, Aaron Bell fourth, Virginia Crosbie fifth and Chi Onwurah at the end. If anyone else would like to ask a question, please indicate.

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Thank you, Chair. It is a pleasure to be on this Committee. I will be brief. Good morning, Dame Ottoline. I would like to pursue the funding question. Governments have long had aspirations to raise the level of R&D, but it proves incredibly difficult to do under pressure of circumstances. Things seem to have changed, in the sense that over the last few months we have seen considerable pressures on UKRI budgets and ongoing uncertainty about the cost of being part of the Horizon programme. Given that there is lots of uncertainty, if you had £800 million to spend in the coming period, would you spend it on thisQ ?

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Splendidly diplomatic answer. I will pass you over to colleagues.

Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)

It is a pleasure to serve under your leadership, Ms McVey. Good morning to both of you, and thank you for your presentations. I truly believe that ARIA will significantly add to the research and innovation landscape, in an area where we perhaps have not done that before. That does beg the question of where those visionary ideas would have gone up until this point.Q

The question that I would like to ask is, what role do you believe that ARIA and UKRI have in ensuring that ARIA-funded research becomes a tangible service or product and actually supports the UK economy? If we are investing £800 million, we need to make sure that there is a benefit. I fully accept the high-risk, high-reward model—I think that is an important part of it—but we need to make sure that we support that innovation and that research along the technology-readiness scale to make sure that it turns into something tangible that adds to our overall wealth. How do you see that role playing out?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

Dame Ottoline, you said earlier that you expect a close working relationship with ARIA. What does that actually look like? Legislatively, what should that look like?Q

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

I agree with you that there needs to be a close working relationship. I do not think we can count on it happening naturally. I have two quick questions, if I may, Ms McVey?

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Dawn, I am mindful of time. We have seven or eight minutes. I have another three questions and Chi Onwurah to come back. Is it a quick one?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

Q It was a quick one on why UKRI cannot access the innovators of tomorrow—the people coding at home. I did not understand what was stopping UKRI doing that?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. I thank both witnesses for their time, and Dame Ottoline for her evidence to the Science and Technology Committee, on which Ms Butler and I also serve.Q

Following on from Dame Ottoline’s answer to Ms Butler, obviously, the purpose is to expand ARIA to cover areas that are not already well covered, but it also seems to be to try to pick up the pace of research and innovation. We have seen that that is possible through crises such as coronavirus. Can you explain how the pace can be picked up by some of the things that you do at Nesta and whether that would carry across to what ARIA is going to do?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Understood, thank you. I had better hand on, as we are running out of time.

Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)

It is a pleasure to serve on this Committee, particularly as a scientist. Dame Ottoline said one of the challenges was finding the right people to lead ARIA and that they were in short supply. Tris said that ARIA was about identifying visionary leaders with extraordinary ideas. My question to both of you is, how much is the success of ARIA linked to finding the right people to lead it? Are you confident that we can find them?Q

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

If you are both answering, you have about a minute each.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Those were both short answers so, Chi, we have time for you.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q There are two contradictions that I have spotted in what you are saying. Dame Ottoline, you talked about ARIA needing to deliver transformational research and outcomes, but at the same time you said that it is too small to be entrusted with society’s great challenges. Should not the public interest determine what that transformation is? Mr Dyson, you talked about ARIA having a new diversity of funders—regional as well—yet at the same time we hear that it has got to be people who know people and have lots of experience, and we do not have diversity in the base now. Twenty seconds each on those contradictions.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Order. I am sorry, but I am going to have to stop you there. They had both been concise answers. I am sorry that we did not finally get to hear your further answer, Tris. Thank you both very much indeed for your time, Dame Ottoline and Tris Dyson.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Q We will now hear oral evidence from Professor James Wilsdon of the University of Sheffield, Professor Marianna Mazzucato from University College London, and Professor Philip Bond from the University of Manchester. We have until 11.25 am for this session. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record? I call, first, Professor James Wilsdon—[Interruption.] James cannot hear at the moment, so we are just going to sort the sound. Can I move on to Professor Marianna Mazzucato?

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Again, I will start with Chi Onwurah, move across to the Minister, and then go side to side between the parties. After I have been to Stephen Flynn, I will ask Members to indicate whether they want to ask a question. I think we will get through everybody, as we were quite successful last time.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q I thank our witnesses for taking the time to join us today and bringing us the benefit of your considerable expertise and experience. Professor Mazzucato, you wrote the groundbreaking book “The Entrepreneurial State” and the more recent “Mission Economy”—perhaps there is a clue in the title, in terms of the emphasis on the benefits that mission-orientated research can bring. Indeed, many thought that this new agency, ARIA, was based on some of your work, yet at the same time it does not seem to reflect some of the important context that you set out for it. Can you tell us whether it will achieve the benefits that you set out in your work? What needs to change? What should the Bill Committee look at changing in order to ensure that that can happen? Similarly, Professor Wilsdon and Professor Bond, based on your work on research and innovation systems—particularly in a UK context—what benefits will ARIA bring and what needs to change in order to improve it?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you. Professor Wilsdon?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you very much. Professor Bond?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much. Professor Mazzucato, you were very clear that it is helpful not to consider this as a replacement institution. We have already heard some confusion as to whether it is cutting edge or transactional. You were also clear about the need for a strong research base, engagement on procurement, and a vision. What should that vision or mission be, in your view? We have heard from Professor Bond that there might be a trade-off between transparency and risk taking. How would you respond to that?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q What do you think ARIA’s mission should be? I will put that same question to the other witnesses.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you. Professor Wilsdon?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Professor Bond, did you want to comment?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Minister?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you, Ms McVey, and thank you to all the witnesses. I have just one question for Professor Philip Bond. We have tried to balance giving ARIA independence and ensuring good governance. What are your thoughts on the ideal size of ARIA’s board and giving ARIA’s chair the freedom to decide who sits on it?

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Before I go to Stephen Flynn, can I just have an indication of who wants to ask questions? I have got Sarah, Daniel, Aaron, Jane—okay. Thanks very much indeed.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Absolutely, and then I will go to Stephen.

Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)

Q Thank you to the three of you for your information so far; it has been incredibly helpful.

I have a question for James and Mariana, and then one for Mr Bond. James and Mariana, you both clearly want to see a mission. However, I do not think we should necessarily kid ourselves that the Government will be minded to agree to any amendment in line with that. Do you have any other wider concerns about the Bill whatsoever, or around ARIA as an entity? Do you see any positives at all? In a previous evidence session, we heard about the good prospect of it being small and agile. Is that something that you would see as a positive?

Mr Bond, you are placing a lot of emphasis on the director—I think you used the words “people with high integrity who are brilliant”. That is pretty vague, to say the least. I am sure we could all pick people who we think are brilliant and have high integrity, so are there any definitive qualities, or anything at all with a little more substance, that individuals should have, perhaps in relation to scientific merit, or their background and commercial activities?

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Professor Bond?

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Thank you very much. I am just going to give the timing because I do not want to run out of time and we have less than 15 minutes left. I have the list of people wanting to speak and I will take it in this order: Daniel Zeichner, Jane Hunt, Sarah Owen and Aaron Bell. Did I miss anybody out? No. I move now to Daniel Zeichner.

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Q Thank you very much, Ms McVey. I have two questions; the first is to Professor Mazzucato. You obviously set a lot of store by the 2017 industrial strategy—you waved!—yet its current status seems somewhat uncertain. Were that not to be going forward, does this whole system then work, in your view? What would be the impact of not having those great challenges and goals set out?

Then I have a question for Professor Bond, which was actually posed by Professor Wilsdon in an article he wrote a while ago. He asked:

“What empirical evidence is there of the problems in the UK’s R&D system to which the Aria bill is the solution?”

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Thank you. Mindful of time, I call Jane Hunt.

Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)

Thank you, Ms McVey. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. My question is to Professor Mazzucato and Professor Bond. In the previous session, it was very interesting what UKRI said about there being almost a language of going through the process of bidding for and gaining R&D funding in the UK, and they do it very well. But they talked about there being an area that could be developed to free up minds. How do we attract fresh ideas and thinking from some of the experts and inventors of our generation who are not always able to engage in the current R&D structureQ ?

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Thank you. Can I just interrupt and say that there are three minutes left and I have two questions left? Can people be to the point?

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Thank you.

Sarah Owen (Labour, Luton North)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey, especially in my first Bill Committee.Q

We have heard a lot of evidence in the two sessions about the need for ARIA to identify what it is for. We should also be clear about what it is not for. Professor Wilsdon, do you think that moral and ethical boundaries need to be placed on ARIA?

Sarah Owen (Labour, Luton North)

Yes.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

I think we are going to hear your question, Aaron, but we will not get the reply.

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Q Professor Bond, you said that opacity is useful because it avoids too much pressure being put on people. Does that apply to trying to get new people into the space?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Q People we are trying to get in through the challenges and so on.

Esther McVey (Conservative, Tatton)

Perfect. We have come to the end of the time allocated for the Committee to ask questions, and indeed for this morning’s sitting. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee for their evidence. Professor James Wilsdon from the University of Sheffield, Professor Mariana Mazzucato from University College London and Professor Philip Bond from the University of Manchester, thank you very much indeed.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Q27 We will hear oral evidence from Dr Peter Highnam, deputy director at the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency; Professor Pierre Azoulay, Massachusetts Institute of Technology; and Dr Regina Dugan, chief executive officer of Wellcome Leap. We have until 3 pm for this session. I call on the witnesses please to introduce themselves for the record.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Thank you for coming to this important evidence session. You are all very welcome. We will start the questions with our shadow Minister, Chi Onwurah.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Cummins. May I also echo your thanks to our witnesses for taking the time to join us for this important session? I am in awe of the range and breadth of your experience in innovation and scientific research, and all the more grateful to those of you with experience of DARPA for joining us this afternoon, as the architect of the Advanced Research and Invention Agency, Dominic Cummings, the previous adviser to the Prime Minister, has apparently refused to give evidence to the Committee. We are able to go only by what he has said previously, and there seems to be some confusion as to what ARIA is and whether it should be engaged in cutting-edge research or in the translation of existing research. You might be able to comment on that.Q

Dominic Cummings said:

“The purpose of ARIA ought to be to sample in this broader design space, to do things differently, and to learn from the things that have been super-productive in the past. That means in very simple terms extreme freedom.”

Dr Highnam, does DARPA have “extreme freedom”? What does that mean in cultural terms? Does complying with, for example, US freedom of information laws or procurement regulations—it is proposed that ARIA would be exempt from them—impact on that freedom?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q I will follow up on that and then bring in the other witnesses. You speak about oversight. Would it be possible to give a bit more detail on that? In particular, the UK Government are currently mired in a cronyism scandal; indeed, that is what is being debated in the House today. DARPA is well known for having exchange between itself and the private sector, but how do you prevent projects or programmes from going to friends, mates and those with, if you like, special interests, without some degree of oversight?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much. Could I ask our other witnesses to respond?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q When they go back, are they allowed, for example, to direct finance at the companies to which they return?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

That is very clear.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much for your responses. May ask one more follow-up question? I have spoken about some of the concerns about oversight and so on, but may I ask each of you what you think is the key positive element of culture? You have spoken about the desire to return with your head held high. What should we be looking for in the directors and programme managers as the key positive part of the culture that ARIA should seek to build?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Honour?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Fabulous.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much. Dr Dugan, I will ask you the same question. The tech sector and science and innovation are not known for their diversity, but we have heard that diversity of thought is very important in the agency. As shadow Minister, I would like to see a broad range of diversity in the people who are recruited, in terms of gender, class and race. I am asking this question of you because you are the last person that I came to. How can the culture promote diversity as well as being positive?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you very much. I know that others have questions to ask so I will leave it there, but I just want to say how inspiring it is to hear such positive reference to the power of public service, science and research, and to oversight as being an enabler rather than a burden.

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q It is a great pleasure to serve under your stewardship, Mrs Cummins. I want to acknowledge the excellence of our witnesses and to thank them. With your permission, I will ask one question to each witness.

I am going to start with Dr Peter Highnam. How do you ensure evaluation and scrutiny of DARPA’s programmes outside what is mandated in legislation? What information do you gather to assess when to start and stop projects and programmes, and how are these decisions made?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you. That was a very precise answer to what I know was a very large question. I would next like to come to Regina Dugan, if I may. As you well know, Wellcome Leap was created as a separate body from Wellcome Trust. Why was that decision made and how will it help Wellcome Leap achieve its objectives sitting outside of the Wellcome Trust?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you very much. That is really helpful. My final question is to Professor Azoulay. In your paper you mention that organisations’ flexibility is essential to the ARPA model. Can you talk a little bit about what that flexibility involves please?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

I call Stephen Flynn, the spokesperson for the SNP.

Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)

Thank you, Ms Cummins. It is a pleasure to serve under you as Chair. I thank the witnesses for their comprehensive answers so far. They have been incredibly helpful.Q

I would like to pick up on a comment made by Dr Dugan, I think, in respect of the intersection of a goal, and using science and engineering to achieve that goal. It would appear, from looking at what is front of us, that the ARIA Bill does not have a goal. There is no mission or bright light that we are trying to get to. What is your collective view—all three of you—in relation to that? ARIA has no mission: is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Secondly, and hopefully briefly, do you think that the UK needs ARIA in order to compete globally when it comes to science and technology research and development?

Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)

That is very helpful, thank you.

Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)

It is a pleasure to serve under your leadership this afternoon, Ms Cummins. ThankQ you to our excellent witnesses. I am interested in the practical approach. When you have made some breakthroughs on these various high-risk projects, how do you ensure that the breakthrough reaches its full potential? Is it done through the ARPA model, passing it on to someone else to take it to the next stage? Is it the project manager who has a role in ensuring that it goes into safe hands, or is it the churn of people—the revolving door—that helps transfer that knowledge out an ARPA and into business, so that it can create service and product?

Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)

Just to follow up briefly, thank you for that; it is comprehensive and helpful. It highlights the fact that you are looking for more than just individuals with some inspiring ideas. They have got to have the ability to own the research and inspire the next stage in its progress. I just think we should put that on record—that programme managers have to be multi-skilled in a number of different areas. So thank you for that.

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

It is great to serve under your chairmanship today, Ms Cummins. Thank you very much to the witnesses today. It is very enlightening. On the back of the last question with regard to managerial content I really like the idea that the transition is an impact or contact sport. You go in, do your best work and get out with your reputation intact. I have two questions about that. First, how do you reach those people who are not known—who may be working on something very creative but are not well known in the industry? Secondly, you have talked a lot about evaluations. Are they peer-to-peer evaluations, and is that evaluation transparent? Perhaps we will go to Dr Highnam firstQ .

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

I can see Professor Azoulay nodding.

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

Great—thank you. Dr Dugan, I saw you nodding as well.

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

Q My final question is to you all. How important do you think the link should be between ARIA and UKRI in the UK? Perhaps we will start with Professor Azoulay, because you have read the Bill very carefully.

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

Thank you. Dr Dugan?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

Thank you. Dr Highnam?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent Central)

No problem. Thank you very much.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Next, I have Aaron Bell and then Daniel Zeichner.

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Thank you, Ms Cummins. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I thank all our witnesses and those who gave evidence to the Science and Technology Committee, which was greatly appreciated.Q

I have two related questions for the panel. First, notwithstanding your responses to Mr Flynn about the need for a mission, which it seems is going to be delivered by the chair and the chief executive of ARIA, how important is it that ARIA remains autonomous and free to pursue whatever its aims are, without interference from Government Ministers?

Secondly, what advice can you give the Committee about the funding methods ARIA might use? The Bill envisages potentially grants, loans, prizes, grant-prize hybrids, investments in companies. Could any of you give us advice on what has worked well in other settings? I would like to start with Dr Highnam, please.

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Q Thank you. Yes, the culture is so important. Dr Dugan, could you answer on the point about autonomy and funding mechanisms?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Q On the funding streams, could you perhaps tell us a little about how Wellcome Leap works with other bodies to fund or otherwise encourage research?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Q Professor Azoulay, would you like to comment on either the autonomy point or the funding mechanisms?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Understood. Thank you.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Next we have Daniel Zeichner, followed by Jerome Mayhew.

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Cummins. I thank the witnesses for what has been an extremely interesting insight so far. I represent the city of Cambridge, where, as you can imagine, many of these issues are a frequent source of discussion. From what I have heard so far, I take it there is not one model of ARPA. You have a number of models, depending upon the different sectors. I heard Dr Highnam say earlier that DARPA had not been replicated anywhere else, yet we are trying to model our system on what you have got. How much does it depend upon the context, not just within the sector and whether it is ARPA-E, ARPA-H or DARPA, but in the wider system? We heard from witnesses earlier today about other aspects of the ecosystem—public procurement, things such as the Small Business Research Initiative, which I understand we have a much less successful version of in this country, and having a single client or defence system. If you do not have clarity on any of that, what would be the consequences? Perhaps I could start with Dr Highnam.Q

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Professor Azoulay?

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Dr Dugan?

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Q Just to come back on one point there, you say free it from the profit motive. I was quite struck through all of this by this stress on public service and honour, which is wonderful—perhaps we are struggling a bit with that here at the moment. Who owns the intellectual property on all of this? It is a complicated question. Is there a simple answer?

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

That is really helpful. Thank you.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

I am afraid this will probably have to be the last question to this set of witnesses. I call Jerome Mayhew.

Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)

We are clearly taking a huge amount of inspiration from DARPA in the creation of ARIA. It is an organisation that has many strengths, but every organisation has weaknesses as well. I would like to give you the opportunity, given your huge knowledge and experience of DARPA, to give us advice on what to avoid. To put it more diplomatically, how can we improve on some of the DARPA processes?Q

Jerome Mayhew (Conservative, Broadland)

Q Finally, to Professor Azoulay, DARPA clearly recognises the benefit of greater integration between the public sector and the private sector, but inevitably that exposes civil servants to political accusations of cronyism. How do you protect DARPA and DARPA servants from those kinds of attacks?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of this session, I am sorry. It is a perfect end to the session, but it is the end of the time allocated to the Committee to ask these questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee for that evidence. Thank you very much.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Q We will now hear evidence from Professor Dame Anne Glover, president of the Royal Society of Edinburgh and special adviser to the vice-chancellor of the University of Strathclyde, and Tabitha Goldstaub, co-founder of CognitionX and chair of the AI Council. Could you both introduce yourselves, please? We have until 3.45 pm for this session. Welcome and thank you.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Thank you very much, both, and welcome. Our first set of questions will be from shadow Minister Chi Onwurah.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much to our guests for joining us and bringing your experience. It is a real pleasure to have an all-female panel. It is a real rarity when it comes to discussions of science generally.

There is some confusion about what ARIA should be. Should it be focused on cutting-edge research, should it be about the transformational translation of existing research, or should it bring the two together? What I would like to know from both of you, with your wide experience, is what you think ARIA’s goal or purpose should be. What problem should it fix?

Ms Goldstaub, you have experience of artificial intelligence, which could be a critical area of research. Do you think it is going to change the nature of research, how we research and how scientific research occurs? How should we envisage ARIA responding to that?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much. And Professor Dame Anne Glover?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Just to follow up with two brief questions. The points you raise, though different, have raised similar questions in me. First, in terms of deciding what areas of research and challenges should be addressed, what if we rely on the leadership, as you suggest, Professor Dame Anne? What ARIA seems to support is what I would call the “big man” model of research: choose five or six great men—generally, they are men—and give them the freedom to be geniuses and to choose what they want to research, to have, as Dominic Cummings says, “extreme freedom”.

Ms Goldstaub, you say that AI is changing how research happens, and also the scale, I would say. Is it possible that we can find five or six great people who know all the different potential areas of research, who can make these kinds of choices on behalf of the British people, using public money, and can integrate the changing nature of research, while at the same time being innovative and having, we would hope, diversity of thought and hopefully also of gender, region, discipline, etc? Is it possible to find five or six people like that? What elements of the structure of ARIA are important to promote that?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you. Professor Dame Anne?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you to our great witnesses. I have one question for both witnesses. What is the importance of giving ARIA independence from Government and Ministers, compared with other parts of the R&D system?

Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)

Q Thank you, Tabitha and Anne, for your detailed responses so far. I have a couple of points, if I may. I think it is safe to say that you seem broadly in favour of ARIA, and you think it will perhaps fill a void. In terms of the resources that ARIA will have, we heard earlier today about the benefits of being a small, agile agency, and £800 million is being allocated. Do you feel that is sufficient for ARIA to meet its needs?

On independence from Government, from looking at your bio, Anne, I can see that you have worked for a few public agencies. If ARIA does not have the public contract regulations and freedom of information in place, will that free it to do what it needs to do? Should we see that as a positive as opposed to a check imbalance, given that we are referring to public money?

Stephen Flynn (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen South)

That is really helpful. Thank you, both.

Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)

Q Good afternoon and thank you for joining us and for your excellent contribution. Anne, you made a very interesting point about the independence of ARIA, to avoid it being used potentially as pointing at political failure. If you are investing in high-risk, high-reward research, there will be failure—that is undoubtedly true. May we ask for your advice on how we should measure the metrics of an ARIA over the early years, before potentially there is any output that has demonstrated a transformational benefit to society? On top of that, could you give us some advice on advising project managers on how they should go about selecting projects to explore? Should it be just on the basis of interesting science, or should there be a vision of the commercialisation of that science at the end, to motivate them? We are only going to be able to fund a certain number of projects, and presumably applications will outstrip the funding fairly quickly.

Sarah Owen (Labour, Luton North)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Cummins. Anne, you talked about citizen buy-in. That would take an element of trust, so my two questions are around that. What could or would good transparency look like without stifling innovation, in both of your opinions? Secondly, if we do not have FOIs and we do not know precisely how this will be reported to us, do we need an ethical baselineQ to ensure that we are spending public money on the greater good?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Virginia Crosbie. I am afraid this will have to be the last, very quick question.

Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Chair. It is a pleasure to serve on this Committee. I, too, thank the panel. Tabitha, it is lovely to see you again. You are an inspiration to so many, especially women. Q My question relates to both your expertise and experience in encouraging the next generation of visionary innovators. What do you see as ARIA’s role in future-proofing the next generation? In Anne’s words, they are the future generation of irreverent researchers. How can we ensure that that is spread equally across the four nations of the UK?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Order. I am really sorry, but I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allocated for the Committee to ask questions of this panel. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee for their evidence.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Q We will now hear oral evidence from our fifth panel of witnesses, which comprises Adrian Smith, president of the Royal Society; Felicity Burch, director of innovation and digital at the Confederation of British Industry; and Professor Sir Jim McDonald, president of the Royal Academy of Engineering. We have until 4.30 pm. I would be grateful if the witnesses please introduced themselves for the record. I believe we are waiting for Professor Sir Jim McDonald to appear.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Thank you very much. I think we are still trying to get Professor Sir Jim McDonald online. We will start off with Chi Onwurah, our shadow Minister.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q As my first question was for both the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineers, I will start with a question to Ms Burch. Neither the ARIA Bill nor the explanatory notes refer to private sector investment. Is that an issue, and is it possible for ARIA to achieve its mission without engaging with the private sector? Can you suggest improvements to the Bill or its context in order to ensure that that happens?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Just to come back briefly, you have made an important point that echoes some of what we have heard already today. In terms of setting out a mission, or where ARIA should be looking, do you feel that more direction needs to come from Government or from public engagement, or should that be left more generally to the executives? As to ensuring private sector engagement, we echo the Government’s ambition to reach 2.4% of GDP spend on R&D; indeed, Labour wants us to go from the average to the excellent, and reach 3%. The private sector is integral to that, so perhaps there could be a little more detail on how to ensure the new agency supports that ambition.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much, those are excellent answers. I see that we have been joined by Professor Sir Jim McDonald, so before my next question I want to welcome all three witnesses and say how much we appreciate your joining us this afternoon.

For Adrian Smith and Professor Sir Jim McDonald: we have, very recently indeed, achieved some clarity on this year’s science budget. I know that that was a matter of concern for both the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering. There has certainly been a sense, and I wonder whether you would echo that sense, that we need long-term funding certainty—that it helps in the support of science and research more generally. Where do you see ARIA sitting in providing that long-term funding certainty, and how do you feel it can or should fit into the wider research environment? I will first ask Adrian Smith, please. It is nice to see you.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much. Professor Sir Jim McDonald?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Can I follow up briefly with Adrian and Sir Jim? Thank you very much for your responses—[Interruption.]

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Order. The sitting is now suspended. I shall resume the Chair at 4.9 pm. I apologise to the witnesses; it is how this place works. If you can just hang on, we will see you in 10 minutes.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

This session will now be slightly extended, for another 10 minutes. It should finish at 4.40 pm. We will start where we left off, with shadow Minister Onwurah.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much, Mrs Cummins. I shall endeavour to restart the exact sentence I was saying. It is noticeable that, while the Bill provides a minimum length of time for ARIA’s existence of 10 years, there seems to be no provision for a minimum length of time for funding. Those research scientists who have recently lost their funding at very short notice because of cuts to the overseas development aid budget may not feel reassured by that.

I have three very specific questions. Adrian represents the Royal Society; Jim represents the Royal Academy of Engineering. We have had some discussion about whether ARIA should be looking at blue-skies research or transformational translation. I assume that you both think it should do both. Or maybe not—will you let us know?

Secondly, the Bill makes provision for public sector R&D funding to be spent by ARIA internationally. I understand that there might need to be collaboration —collaboration drives research—between UK and international bodies, but do you think it would be appropriate for ARIA to fund exclusively international research programmes?

Thirdly, do you think the UK should get some kind of tangible return from this level of investment in high-risk, high-reward research?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Should the UK get a return on this investment?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you very much for your answers.

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Welcome to the witnesses—it is lovely to see you this afternoon. I have two questions that are relevant to all three of you, please. Given that we know how important ARIA is to the UK economy, what importance do you put on patience when we think about funding high-risk transformational research? How necessary is it that we have a long-term view?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Thank you. Sir Jim?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you. Sticking with you, Sir Adrian, I was thinking that we have heard an awful lot about the importance of ARIA recruiting people from a variety of backgrounds. I wonder how we attract the best people, from industry in particular.

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Q I thank all three of you for your time today. I have one brief question for Ms Burch and then one for Sir Adrian. In terms of the funding ideas and streams available through ARIA, would the CBI and your members welcome the potential of investments in companies or joint ventures with ARIA?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Q Thank you. Sir Adrian, speaking to your professional interest and expertise as a Bayesian statistician, which I share as a layman, how can we use Bayesian statistics to help decide which projects to fund and also when to pull the plug?

Aaron Bell (Conservative, Newcastle-under-Lyme)

Perhaps we need someone with particular expertise in portfolio management as well, because it seems the risk/reward of these missions is so key. I will leave it there.

Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)

Q Good afternoon, all. I have a quick question for Felicity. We heard earlier from Dr Highnam from DARPA about the high level of churn among the project managers and that they move between academia, business and, in their case, DARPA and that creates the right culture. Presumably it requires flexibility from the businesses themselves. Do you see your members embracing that kind of secondment into a research body such as ARIA, even though it may not lead to anything?

Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)

Q Have you any advice on how we should approach building such an organisation?

Stephen Metcalfe (Conservative, South Basildon and East Thurrock)

Yes. You said that we have to build an ARIA that encourages that kind of collaboration. What is your advice about doing that? Where are the risks and rewards from an employer’s point of view?

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Q A few years ago, we were told that there was no magic money tree. That seems to have been parked temporarily, but I fear that it will return at some point. I detect enthusiasm from all of you for this project, but how much is your enthusiasm dependent upon the money being genuinely new and additional in terms of the wider research environment?

I have a second question. Through the day, we have heard from different witnesses mainly a view that there needs to be a mission but also some difference of opinion as to who should set that mission. Who do you think should be setting it? Maybe I can go to Sir Adrian first.

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Q That sounds like a gloriously British response to me, but I agree with it. Felicity?

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Sir Jim?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Thank you. We will have a very quick sneaky question from the shadow Minister, Chi Onwurah.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you very much. Adrian, I was very interested in what you said about the number of people in organisations who want to influence the terms of the mission. Obviously, if the Government set the mission, they have a democratic mandate. If the CEO or the director sets the mission, how would you suggest that we can test that he or she is not simply being influenced by their pet projects and preferences? What kind of test could we set out?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q So you think it is only trust, and there has to be trust in governance?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Thank you very much. If there are no further questions from Members, then we are dead on time. May I thank the witnesses for their evidence before we move on to the next panel? Thank you very much.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Q We will now hear oral evidence from David Cleevely CBE, chair of Focal Point Positioning Ltd and the Cambridge Science Centre, and Dr Bob Sorrell, chair of the Campaign for Science and Engineering. We have half an hour for discussion. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves? Thank you very much; it is lovely to see you both.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Thank you very much. I will start the questions with Chi Onwurah, the shadow Minister for the Opposition.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Hi, David and Bob. It is great to see you both and thanks for giving your time. I do not know whether you have been able to follow our evidence sessions, but we have had a lot of discussion about the purpose and remit of ARIA and the extent to which it addresses fundamental failings—if there are fundamental failings—in how the UK chooses and commercialises research. I would like to ask you both your opinion on the remit and purpose of ARIA. What is the failing that you see ARIA fixing? How does it need to change to fix that? Are there things that it is not addressing that it needs to? I will start with David Cleevely.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q As a chartered engineer, I am always happy to put engineering in anything. The Advanced Research and Engineering Projects Agency would be AREPA. Your point, which has come up a number of times, is whether this is about, if you like, cutting-edge research, or whether it needs to be looking at transformational translation of existing research, or whether it needs to do both. Certainly, the economist Mariana Mazzucato, as you probably heard, made the point that having the basis there is important, and you seem also to be saying that it needs to look at both, and that it needs to get its purpose right. Let me go now to Bob, and then we will come back.

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q Thank you for both of those responses. To follow up, you both emphasised the importance of procurement and market pull. It seems to me that there is such a vast range of areas, issues or challenges that ARIA could look at. What are your views on who should decide what it looks at? Is there a need for a mission, and who should that be set by? If it is left to four, five or six individuals to set the missions, how do we ensure that it is not simply about vanity or pet projects, and that cronyism—we are having some challenges with that at the moment—is not promoted? How do we avoid cronyism and support diversity?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Thank you. I could ask you lots more questions, but I will stop there and hand over.

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

The next set of questions is from Minister Solloway.

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q It is lovely to see our two witnesses this afternoon. The first question is to Bob. You mentioned in your written evidence to the Science and Technology Committee that a body like ARIA will need an understanding of failure. What does a new understanding of failure look like, exactly?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you very much for that. I have a more general question to both of you. One of the things we have heard a lot about today is the importance of fitting ARIA into a larger innovation system. What advice do you both have about how ARIA can forge the most productive relationships with a range of public and private sectors, for example?

Amanda Solloway (Conservative, Derby North)

Q Thank you, David. Bob, any further thoughts on the relationship and how to engage with public and private sector?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

Thank you, Minister. Daniel Zeichner.

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Q Thank you, Chair. Welcome, both of you; it is good to see you. I have been struck throughout today by the evidence that we have been looking at an American model, trying to learn lessons from it and importing it into what looks to me like a rather different environment and landscape here. I would like both of you to ignore all that we have heard today and answer the question I would ask at the beginning, which is: what is the big problem facing the UK R&D system? Do you think ARIA, as it is presented, can be bent to fit whatever problem it is that you think needs to be solved?

Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)

Q To summarise slightly—I do not want to become a grim AREPA—what we need is not only an ARIA that can do the things that we have been talking about today, but possibly other things alongside it to make it work. Would you agree with that?

Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)

Q If nobody else has a question, I will take the opportunity to come back on that point, particularly on procurement. I remember having a great deal of difficulty persuading the Prime Minister that the American Department of Defence was far better at buying stuff from UK small businesses than the UK Ministry of Defence, as the figures show. What do you think we could do, or what should Government be doing, to enable, require or ensure that ARIA, or AREPA, better supports small business growth and, at the same time, addresses the issue of market pull?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

We have one last very quick question from Sarah Owen.

Sarah Owen (Labour, Luton North)

Q Bob, you mentioned engagement and trust. We have heard a lot today about accountability and trust. How do you feel that we can get that trust without stifling innovation, and do you think FOIs are the best way to do that?

Sarah Owen (Labour, Luton North)

Q Do you think it would be useful to have that built into ARIA from its inception?

Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)

If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. The Committee will meet again on Tuesday at 9.25 am to begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill.