Parliamentary Constituencies Bill
Public Bill Committee, 18 June 2020.
(Morning)
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Before we begin, I have a few announcements. Please ensure your mobile devices are on silent. I allow you to bring in tea and coffee. I am not as strict as some other Chairs. You are welcome to keep refreshed during the proceedings. I call the Minister to move the programme motion in her name.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 11.30am on Thursday 18 June) meet—
(a) at 2.00pm on Thursday 18 June;
(b) at 9.25am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 23 June;
(c) at 11.30am and 2.00pm on Thursday 25 June;
(d) at 9.25am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 30 June;
(e) at 11.30am and 2.00pm on Thursday 2 July;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
TABLE
Date
Time
Witness
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 12.20pm
Boundary Commission for England
Boundary Commission for Scotland
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 12.40pm
Boundary Commission for Wales
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 1pm
Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 2.30pm
The Conservative Party
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 3pm
The Labour Party
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 3.30pm
The Liberal Democrats
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 4pm
The Scottish National Party
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 4.30pm
Plaid Cymru
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 5pm
Professor Richard Wyn Jones, Wales Governance Centre, Cardiff University
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 9.50 am
Dr Alan Renwick, The Constitution Unit, University College London
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 10.10 am
The Green Party
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 10.40 am
Professor Roger Awan-Scully, School of Law and Politics, Cardiff University
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 11.25 am
Professor Iain McLean, Department of Politics and International Relations, University of Oxford Professor Sir John Curtice, Department of Politics, University of Strathclyde
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 2.30 pm
The Association of Electoral Administrators
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 3pm
The Local Government Boundary Commission for England
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 3.30 pm
The Electoral Reform Society
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 3.50 pm
The Democratic Unionist Party
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 4.10 pm
Dr Jac Larner, Wales Governance Centre, Cardiff University
Tuesday 23 June
Until no later than 5 pm
Professor Charles Pattie, Department of Politics, University of Sheffield Dr David Rossiter
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 11, the Schedule, Clause 12, New Clauses, New Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00pm on Thursday 2 July. Chloe Smith has given notice of her intention to move a motion in the terms of the Resolution of the Programming Sub-Committee [Standing Order No. 83C].
Thank you for your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. We all look forward to serving with you. I welcome the shadow Minister and all members of the Committee. I am grateful to everybody for their time and to the witnesses.
It is important that we have a motion here that provides for four oral evidence sessions and six sessions of line-by-line scrutiny, with the option, should we need it, for afternoon sessions to run longer, but I am sure none of us wants any midnight finishes, so we will stick to the work in hand. This gives a good amount of time for the Bill to be properly scrutinised. I really welcome the fact that we have a wide range of witnesses.
I draw the Committee’s attention to the letter that everybody ought to have received from me already, outlining a Government amendment we are making with respect to the data to be used by reviews, which I hope is welcome in the light of the impact of coronavirus.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
The Minister is referring to a letter of 15 June. I assume everyone has received that.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee room. I believe they are at the back of the room.
Examination of Witnesses
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Mr Bellringer, you are very welcome before us, physically, and Isabel Drummond-Murray, can you hear me? Hello.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
You are very welcome with us virtually. Thank you both for taking the time to join us and for allowing the panel to proceed.
We are now in public session to hear evidence from Tony Bellringer, secretary to the Boundary Commission for England, and Isabel Drummond-Murray, secretary to the Boundary Commission for Scotland.
Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind the Committee that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. We will stick to the timings in the programme order. The Committee has agreed that for this panel we will have until 12.20 pm or thereabouts.
I ask any members of the Committee who wish to declare any relevant interests in connection with the Bill to make those declarations now.
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
Isn’t that all of us?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I call the first witnesses. Will you please introduce yourselves? We will start with you, Isabel.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Minister, we move to you for questions.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you, Mr Paisley. I also thank you, Isabel and Tony, for joining us this morning. In my departmental role, I look forward to continuing the work between my officials and you and yours, doing the work of this legislation behind the scenes.
Could you talk us through what it consists of to conduct a review? Also, given that this legislation focuses on having equal and updated boundaries, perhaps you would be able to give us some insight into the importance of updating your work, including the fact that we have a slightly shortened review for the first of the series of actions that is outlined in the Bill.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Q Isabel Drummond-Murray, do you want to say anything?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Mr Bellringer, you talked about the plus or minus 5% of the electoral quota requirement that was brought in under the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011. However, in the 2013 report by the Boundary Commission, which looked at the lessons learned, it statesQ :
“One of the most testing issues in the context of the revised statutory framework has been the requirement to reconcile the need to adhere to a fixed electorate tolerance (i.e. within 5% of the electoral quota) with the need to respect local ties and/or existing constituency boundaries.”
Do those concerns still stand and, if so, is there any way of alleviating the difficulties that the commission will face?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q In areas where electoral wards are much larger—some cities, certainly in England, have wards of almost 10,000 electors—would those communities be seen as more difficult to fit into the 5% without splitting wards?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. I have perhaps three or four questions that I would like to ask Ms Drummond-Murray. First, most of us here are quite pleased that the Government have decided to change their position and let us remain at 650 seats, but I understand that even with the protection of 650 seats for the UK Parliament, Scotland would lose seats under this review. Is that a point that you can clarify, and what would be the reduction for ScotlandQ ?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q I also want to ask a question that I appreciate may be slightly more technical, but pretty much all of us on this Committee are probably minded that way. I understand that there are limits on how often hearings can be conducted for the Boundary Commission, and I think that at one point Scotland was limited to four or five hearings. I know that in evidence to the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, Professor Henderson said that that was problematic for the Boundary Commission in Scotland. Is it still the view of the Boundary Commission that the limit on hearings is problematic?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q Continuing on that theme of geography, which is obviously a challenge in rural Scotland, quite a number of us, regardless of what party we are in, were quite alarmed at the size of the proposal for what would be a Highland North constituency. Can you tell the Committee a little bit about how you go about drawing up constituencies in that part of the world, particularly in relation to the 12,000 sq km or 13,000 sq km size, as is the case with one constituency in Scotland at the moment?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q It would be very difficult for Members to cover as well. My final question is on the idea of building constituencies not necessarily based on ward boundaries but on polling districts. Do you have a view on that, and how that would work in Scotland?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q Can I ask both witnesses how they prioritise the various different factors, for example, the numbers and the tolerance, the geography and the communities of interest? How do you weight each of those, and what process do you use to draw those up?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
It is, yes, thank you. Ms Drummond-Murray wanted to answer as well from the Scottish point of view.
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q Can I ask both of you—it may sound like a pointed question, but it is not intended to be—whether you ever feel that you have got it wrong? I will give a couple of examples. In my area, the notorious proposed Mersey Banks constituency attracted quite a lot of opprobrium and obloquy. One of Mr Linden’s colleagues, albeit under the 600 distribution, talked about having a constituency that would be equivalent in size to, in England, the area from Westminster to Nottingham. Do you ever think, “Flipping heck, we didn’t that do very well there”?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q Is it not better to try to get it right first, rather than be a bit provocative and stir up public interest? Is it not better to get it right first so there are fewer changes?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q A final question from me, Chair.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
This is your third “final”.
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
I will not push it to a fourth. Do you have any consideration of constituencies that have multiple local authority areas? Some Members represent two local authorities and others represent three. Do you have any rules or guidance on minimising that?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Isabel, did you want to add something?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
ItQ is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley, on what I am sure will be a really interesting Committee. I thank the witnesses for the responses they have already given, and the inevitable hard work they are facing in this area.
Can I follow up on one of the responses to David Linden’s questions, about splitting wards to do what this Bill is trying to do, which is to create equal and updated boundaries across the whole of the United Kingdom? I speak as one who represents a constituency of 83,000 people—well in excess of what I am sure will be the eventual quota. Isabel was talking about the importance in Scotland of using postcodes to try to get some sense of equalisation. Could Mr Bellringer outline for the Committee what the approach is to splitting wards in England, and whether any experts have looked at this to give us advice on what is a good process to follow, particularly when it comes to polling districts?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q If you can do it in Scotland, why can you not do it in England?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q May I probe a little further? We are talking about democracy here, so it is pretty important that we get it right, and a bit of extra hard work and extra IT is what the electorate would expect to get a democratic process. I still do not really understand why you are not doing this, particularly given that I know exactly what the boundaries of my polling districts are, so I do not understand why you do not.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Mr Paisley, I do not know if this will help, but it might be useful if the commission provided the Committee with a note on the issue and how it could be overcome. Just because it has not been done before does not mean that it cannot be done in the future, and I think this piece of legislation demands that it be done now. Could I suggest that we ask the commission to provide a more detailed note on how this could be done, with any costings that might be appropriate?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
You are being asked to write a wish list on this issue. Could you do that for us?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Could you give that to us within two weeks?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q And any suggestions of changes in the law to do that would be really helpful.
Can I ask one other question—will you indulge me, Mr Paisley? I noticed that the commissions try to minimise the disruption to existing boundaries in its proposals, which is obviously a sensible thing to do. I also noted that it has said in the past that the commissions are not obliged to shut their eyes to likely future growth. That is particularly noted in section 40 of the guidance that was produced at the last review. Will both commissions outline their approach to the next review and whether it will be the same sort of approach? I declare an interest in that I represent a part of the country that is building a lot of houses. To propose boundaries that will inevitably be changed radically in the future would seem to be a waste of the commission’s time.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Presumably, it would affect your geographical boundaries, which may not have live bodies in yet, but will in the future.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q And in Scotland?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We have four more questions and about 11 minutes on the clock, though I will push it on to get all the questions asked, because the evidence we are getting is very good for the inquiry.
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
Q It is a pleasure to serve under you, Mr Paisley.
Thank you for your evidence, Mr Bellringer. It has been really informative. I want to explore the building blocks further. To pick up on the polling district, you said that you had done a piece of work and commented that it was difficult to stay on top of the reviews that came through—to be able to understand them—but, as you have also just outlined, you cannot build on shifting sands. At some point, you have to draw a line. In terms of using polling districts to build in this review, do you have a set of data sat there that you could use?
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
Q Your evidence is based on 600, of course, so a much bigger size. I am a West Yorkshire MP, but to look at Yorkshire as a whole region, if I take the situation in North Yorkshire, building as you say on consideration of rivers, mountains and motorways, the constituency in Richmond is knocking almost 85,000—according to the figures up to this point, which we were using in November—and you have to bash around all the North Yorkshire seats to get them roughly into an area. That means, if you are going to go with wards, you cannot get around the fact that you will have big mountain ranges in the way, that people will have to leave the constituency to get to other places in it. I am thinking one of the solutions is the Great Ayton ward in North Yorkshire, which you can look at to come into Thirsk and Malton, to make the numbers add up. The knock-on effect goes down and into West Yorkshire.
It is important that we get some steer on how you could get away from using wards, which is a tradition—it is not legislated that it must be wards—because it negates having to go outside the 5%, which is another Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe recommendation, that for free and fair elections seats should not vary by more than 10%, and would allow the objective of keeping communities together, of keeping county constituencies together and away from borough constituencies. In my city of Leeds, my seat is a county constituency; the other seven seats are borough constituencies. That would be giving regard to keeping those existing seats together.
I am asking both commissions about the practicalities of what recommendations you would make to the Committee before we finalise these laws—how to get to a situation in which you can use the smallest building blocks to cause the minimum disruption, which is what you are really after when looking at constituencies. I am seeking some comment on that. Mrs Miller explored it well, but just outlining—
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I think he has got the question, Alec. We are really appreciative.
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
Q I have one more question for both commissions. When you have a large constituency and perhaps have different authorities within it, has any member of the public ever made a complaint about other parts of the constituency, which may be tens or hundreds of miles away from where they live? Are their complaints based around their local community? Do you get complaints from elected politicians or members of the public about other areas of the constituency in those purer terms, or is it just about their local areas? Does it really matter to a constituent what the rest of the constituency takes in, as long as their local community is kept together?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Q Do you agree with that, Mr Bellringer?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
I think it is the first time in all these years that I have been on a Committee that you have been chairing, Mr Paisley, so it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.Q
My question is about electoral registration. Do you find that it fluctuates between general elections? Do we get a higher registration level at the time of a general election, and should that be the point at which we count the population for future reviews?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q You might not want to comment on this, but would it then make sense to calculate from a high point like that, so that it is perhaps more accurate at the next general election?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Could I ask about your relationship with the Minister’s office when you are carrying out a review? The Minister said in her opening remarks that she was looking forward to working with you. How much information do you share with the Minister’s office? The Bill removes the final approval from Parliament, and we would want to scrutinise how much influence the Minister’s office can have on the process.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Were you consulted on the drafting of the Bill?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Is what you provided to the Government publicly available?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Perhaps you could add them to the notes that you are sending us. May I ask about consultation? There was a lot of consultation in my area that seemed to go reasonably well. Then one individual did a mathematical calculation, not taking any heed of all the local arguments made about common interests and geographical areas, and the Boundary Commission plumped for that at the last minute after all the consultation. That makes the consultation very frustrating. How much weight do you put on local input into consultations over the interests of somebody doing a disconnected mathematical calculation on a map?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Could I add a last bit on the consultation and the issue of flexibility? When you hear the arguments about local ties and suchlike, are there occasions when, perhaps in a minority of cases, you would want to go beyond 5% and would want that flexibility in order to address that local concern?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Chris, you have time for one quick question.
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
Thank you, Mr Paisley; it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.Q
My question is about how to deal with county boundaries or sub-units within a region. It is specifically an English problem, obviously. I will take the north-west as an example because there are five discrete units. If we take Greater Manchester’s current electorate—I am using the December 2019 figures—we can neatly subdivide it into 27 seats that are just on the edge of quota. However, there are basically 49,000 extra voters that you could take in from Lancashire, so at what stage do you make a determination on whether to start splitting wards and have a neat compact unit within one county? Or do you start looking across county boundaries?
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
Q What formula do you use to calculate how you divide between those sub-units? Is it just a Hare formula and you divide by the quota?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Do you have any concerns about polling districts having no legal standing and are just advised by local authorities for the administration of elections?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of this session. As usual, it got more interesting as time went along. We probably could have had much more time, although I am sure that our two witnesses are very pleased that there is no additional time. However, it shows that there is considerable interest in this issue. More expert witnesses will come along now, so we will be able to continue some of these lines of questioning. I thank our two witnesses for coming today—you have been brilliant, informative and very helpful to the Committee. I thank you for your efforts.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now hear from Shereen Williams, who is on the line. Shereen, can you hear us?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
You are very welcome. We are sorry for keeping you for a couple of minutes. I was only allowed to run over because we had a technical issue with bells ringing, and I felt that we lost a couple of minutes. We will not let that little technical difficulty deny you that time at the end of this either. Introduce yourself, and then we will move on to the Minister.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Thank you. I will call the party leads first, and then I will take questions.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Good morning, Shereen. It is very good to have you with us; thank you very much indeed. I repeat to you the note of welcome that I sounded to your two predecessor witnesses. Mr Paisley, if I may, I put it absolutely clearly on the record, in response to something that Mr Efford hinted at, that boundary commissioners and their civil servants are independent of Government. I am absolutely clear that only in the most general sense do I say that civil servants work with them. There is nothing more to be read into that. For the sake of the record, the Boundary Commission for Wales is a non-departmental public body of the Cabinet Office. I make that clear at the outset.
Shereen, may I ask about how you hold public hearings? We have gone through some more general discussion with your two predecessor witnesses, so perhaps we might turn to this angle with you. As you will be aware, the legislation proposes moving the timing of one of the public hearings but maintains very firmly that there should be ample public consultation, which we think is really important for public accountability and public involvement. Perhaps you might give us some insight into how you manage that for Wales.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Thank you, Shereen. I will pause there and let other colleagues take over.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Wales presents a unique geographical issue due to its large, sparsely populated areas with seats that have a much larger acreage. I am thinking of Brecon and Radnorshire, Montgomeryshire, Carmarthenshire —all those rural areas with very large seats. However, you also have the geography of the south Wales valleys, with each valley currently tending to have its own constituency. Given the population change in Wales over the past two decades from when the data was last used, coupled with the very tight 5% quota, the new review is likely to mean that there will be quite a lot of change in Wales. We will potentially see constituencies with more than one valley and a mountain range in between. Are there any geographical features, such as those valleys, that you consider a priority issue when it comes to drawing Welsh boundaries?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Would it be easier with a wider range of percentage away from the electoral quota? Would you find that community ties would be better reflected by having a wider range?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Thank you, Shereen, for joining us. I want to follow up the line of questioning about how constituencies or proposed new boundaries are formulated. I am interested in how the commission approaches some of the statutory factors listed under rule 5 and, in particular, local ties. Could you elaborate a little on what in practice the commission has to consider under “local tiesQ ”?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q That is great. I appreciate that there is a range of factors and that it is difficult to balance all of them. Indeed, the report that the commission published in response to the last review mentioned that the reduction from 40 to 29 seats in Wales would make it particularly difficult to reflect all the factors in rule 5. I appreciate that it is a little early, at the moment, to truly know how many seats Wales may or may not have, but how much of a difference would it make, in terms of your work in appreciating all the different factors listed under rule 5, if Wales were to receive more than the—well, the previously proposed 29 seats?
Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)
It is a pleasure to sit before you, Mr Paisley. I have a couple of questions, Ms Williams. First, the same phrase has been used in your session and in the session before. The reference has been to having a “very tight 5% quota”, but in fact that means a 10% variance. I wonder what you think about equal vote, equal value versus a larger variance, which would mean fewer constituents in one constituency and a much larger group in another if there were a more than 10% variance, and how those constituents would feel about thatQ .
Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)
Q Okay, but you talk about a “very tight” 5% quota, and that is something you will also be given if this measure goes through, so how would you then deal with it?
Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)
Q Ward splitting was referred to previously. How would that work in Wales? There was some reference to some wards being too large, which gives me the idea that single-seat wards would be a good idea for the future. How would that work in Wales? Are there areas where local government wards are too large?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q I start by thanking Shereen for her evidence today. In your evidence, you have highlighted the specific challenges in Wales because of the beautiful geography you have. Can you and the Welsh commission learn from the experience in Scotland, when they undertook a very significant review of boundaries in the ’80s—I am sure Scottish members of the Committee can remind me exactly when that was—when there was major reorganisation? It is a challenge, but it is one that has been successfully undertaken in Scotland and perhaps now the challenge falls to Wales. Is there any learning you can get from that?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Sorry—that major change happened prior to 2005, actually. It is really reassuring to hear your comments.
Going back to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough raised about splitting wards, it is interesting that that seems to be something that can happen in Wales and Scotland, although the procedures are not as easy as they might be. We heard that from the commission in England. Would you be able to advise the Committee about working with Mr Bellringer on what would need to be put in place to ensure that, if it was helpful, sub-ward-level splits could take place? Would you be able to provide some more information for the Committee on that?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Very finally, in Wales you have the wonderful Ynys Môn constituency, which is the second-largest island in the United Kingdom—I am nervously looking at the Chair here—or maybe the third, depending on how you view Northern Ireland.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Rathlin Island. I think you are right.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
I wondered whether, as somebody who was brought up in Wales and understands the importance of cultural identity within the Welsh nation and the psyche, you have thought further about how that constituency should be treated. I am a Hampshire MP, and the Isle of Wight gets particular protection because of that.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Understood. Sorry, I have probably pressed you too far on that.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Shereen, thank you very much for your wonderful evidence and, more importantly, for getting us back on time. You have made my chairmanship so much easier. Thank you for giving us your time this morning.
Examination of Witness
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Q We now move to our final witness before we break at 1 o’clock, who is Eamonn McConville. He is the secretary to the Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland. Eamonn, you are very welcome. Please introduce yourself.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Could you speak up a little for us? It is not a problem I have, but it is one that some other people have.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will move to the Minister first, then to the main party spokespeople, and then Shaun Bailey is the first on my list for this section.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you for joining us this morning, Eamonn. It is excellent to have you with us. Can you help us to understand some of the differences that apply to your work compared with that of the other boundary commissions? I am talking from the premise that we are extremely keen to bring about equal and updated constituencies that apply within and across all the nations of the United Kingdom, but it is a fact that in the pre-existing legislation, particular provisions are made for Northern Ireland. Would you be able to talk us through those and why you think they are important?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you, Eamonn. May I also invite you to say a little about the way in which the parliamentary constituencies link to the Assembly seats, for the benefit of the Committee?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
For clarity, Eamonn, you said five areas, but do you not mean five seats in each constituency?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q I would like to ask a bit about how coronavirus might impact on the work of the commission. Given the slightly contracted public consultation period, has any consideration been given to how that work might be done if social distancing is still in place?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q What kind of timescale were you planning for the recruitment and training of staff?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q If I may take a different line of questioning, obviously there are unique community issues in Northern Ireland, which we all understand. How would you take those into account when drawing boundaries? Does having a tight margin make that particularly difficult, in terms of percentage variance from the electoral quota?
Shaun Bailey (Conservative, West Bromwich West)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Paisley. Northern Ireland underwent significant local government reform about five years ago, and the number of local authorities was reduced from 26 to 11. I wonder whether any lessons were gleaned from that experience. Could Q that work be cross-applied as the boundaries are reviewed here? Linking to the point about communities, what were the community considerations that came out of that, or were gleaned from any cross-discussions that you had?
Shaun Bailey (Conservative, West Bromwich West)
Q We have heard a lot from the Boundary Commission for England in particular about how it is difficult to drill down to that local level. When you were going through that overhaul, I suppose in a way it was a bit of a blank canvas. I am interested to understand this from a data point of view. How did you go about acquiring the data from people? Was it a similar mechanism to what we heard about, utilising postcodes, or were you using other datasets? I am conscious of the community element, but I am interested to hear how that operated in Northern Ireland.
Shaun Bailey (Conservative, West Bromwich West)
Yes, for the initial proposals, but perhaps you could say if you were diverted as the process developed.
Chris Clarkson (Conservative, Heywood and Middleton)
My points dovetail nicely with my colleague’s questions. We have been talking quite a bit about the necessity, or desirability, of ward splitting in England. Obviously, it is a slightly different situation Q in Northern Ireland because, in addition to wards, you have electoral areas. I want to understand what you use as the principal building blocks for drawing the new seats—is it electoral areas or wards? If it is electoral areas, at what stage do you start splitting those back down to constituent wards?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q Mr Bailey may have touched on this in his question about local government boundaries after the contraction. Mr McConville, what efforts do you make to keep the constituencies as coterminous as possible with the new boundaries? I asked two of your counterparts earlier about constituencies that cross over multiple local authority boundaries. I wonder if you have any views on that, too.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Eamonn, may I take this opportunity to thank you for presenting us with this evidence and for giving us your time this morning? Right on cue, like a Swiss clock, you have managed to get us to the end of this session on time. I appreciate that. That brings us to the end of this morning’s session. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm in the same room to take further evidence.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
You are all very welcome back to the Committee. We have six witnesses over this afternoon’s session. Three witnesses will be physical and three will be down the line using digital technology.
Examination of witness
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now hear from our first witness this afternoon, Mr Roger Pratt. Roger, you are very welcome.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I hope that you enjoy today’s session, rather than endure it. If you introduce yourself for the record, we will then move on to questions, starting with Chloe Smith.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q55 Thank you for joining us today, Roger. I will turn to the use of data, after the more general questions we had this morning. Can you give your view on the robustness of the sources from which we take data for the review? They have for some time and for a number of reasons been based on electoral registration data, compared with, for example, census data or other sources, and they are usually based on the canvass as the point in the year. Can you offer any comment on why that is a sensible approach?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much. I am sure that when we think in terms of robust data, we all know the definitions of completeness and accuracy, which are the two terms that we use in this arena. It is not necessarily the case, as people argue, that a larger register from general elections is in itself a good thing. Would you agree that what we are looking for is completeness and accuracy? Would your view be that there is a good chance of that from the March figures and, more long term, that there is the best chance of that from the canvass data every year?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
I have a final question to round off that set. Obviously, we all want to see as many people who are eligible to be registered as possible—and that, I trust, would be the view of the Conservative party.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now make our way around the group leaders, unless I signal otherwise. If anyone else wishes to speak, just catch my eye.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Thank you, Roger, for coming to give evidence. Are there any specific circumstances in which electoral quota could be relaxed in order to avoid splitting an electoral ward? For example, even though the vast majority of seats were within the 5%, if in one or two very localised examples a 6% variance would prevent a ward splitting, would you find that preferable?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
One of those exceptions would be the Isle of Wight, which looks set to get two MPs under the Bill. On current figures, that would come in at about 55,000 electors in each, which is about the size of many Welsh constituencies, in particular if we look at the Welsh valleys and their geography, where mountains divide communities. How do you explain the difference between those geographical features that make the Isle of Wight the exception but not necessarily the Welsh valleys?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
My final question. We have the representative of the Conservative and Unionist party before us, and you have acknowledged that Wales looks set to take a hit. It looks to be the most badly affected of all the nations of the United Kingdom in the review. What assessment do you make about the integrity of the Union in terms of the consequences of this boundary review and Welsh voices in this place?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
I want to follow on from the last question. On the issue of equality within the United Kingdom, it was the view of the Conservative party for quite some time that the number of seats should be reduced to 600. Am I right in thinking that your view is now in line with the Government’s—that it should be 650?Q
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q You are very honest about the fact that, in your words, “Wales will take a hit” as a result of the legislation—I think that is on the record. Are you also willing to place on the record that Scotland, too, will lose seats as a result of that? If so, can you say how many seats Scotland will lose?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q Of course, your research will show that my seat is spread over two local authorities as well. I am the only MP in Glasgow whose constituency is not coterminous with the city of Glasgow.
I want to ask you specifically about the idea of the size of constituencies. You have hit the nail on the head in terms of some island communities, which are protected; Na h-Eileanan an Iar is a good example of that. There is also what was proposed as the Highland North constituency, which is probably the size of a country like Belgium or Luxembourg. Do you have a view on the limit of 12,000 to 13,000 sq km being the provision for a constituency? Is it the Conservative party’s view that that is a manageable size of constituency for a Member to deal with?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Okay, can I finish off with one question going back to the equality of the United Kingdom? You said yourself that Scotland stands to lose two or three seats. How would you, as a representative of the Conservative and Unionist party, reconcile that with what people in Scotland were told in 2014—how we were better together and we should be a United Kingdom?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
If it helps, Mr Pratt, I believe the correct pronunciation is Na h-Eileanan an Iar.
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
I thought I would get that one in.
I have just one question. Moving away from the numbers, what is your experience of being able to influence local proposals once they are already out? How flexible have you found the Boundary Commission and the assistant commissioners to be? What are the most useful arguments to deploy when considering the ones that perhaps resonate most with the boundary commissioners when you consider local proposals?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We still have nine minutes with you, Roger, so I will call John Spellar.
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
Thank you, Chair. First, Roger, youQ were very robust in your declaration of support for 650 seats. Were you as robust in your support for 600 when it was Conservative policy?
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
Q You talked about the Isle of Wight as if this issue were somehow absolutely insuperable, but you also talked about the constituency that includes Skye. Until the Skye bridge was built, people had to get across by ferry, so why is it so utterly impossible to have linkage between part of the Isle of Wight—a much bigger constituency, as you have agreed—and part of the mainland, if we have achieved it in Skye?
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
There are lots of ferries between Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight, though. I was recently on a Defence Committee visit there, prior to covid-19, and the ferries are quite regular and quite quick.
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
Q You conflated the situation in Scotland and Wales, did you not? Was not the reason why Wales retained a degree of what we accept is over-representation precisely so that the Welsh voice was heard in Westminster, because much more legislation regarding Wales was dealt with in Westminster than legislation regarding Scotland? Surely the underlying point is about the integrity of the Union and maintaining a strong voice for Wales, which is still much more directly linked with England than is Scotland.
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
Q I agree with you about using the electoral register as the basis for drawing this up. You mention both accuracy and completeness. Would it be right to give greater powers and direction to electoral registration officers to use their access to public data to improve the completeness of the register and, as with registrars of death removing those who have died, the accuracy as well?
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
Q Finally, you mentioned that something like 50% of the initial recommendations were altered. Is that not partly because if they followed an argument in one constituency, because of the 5% margin, there were inevitable knock-on effects on many other constituencies, which could have been perfectly easily accommodated had there been a wider margin of difference? You had a domino effect rather than dealing with a perfectly proper and legitimate cause of local complaint.
Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)
I have a couple of questions about reviews. First, on the proposal for an eight-year review cycle, could you tell me what you think of that, and why?Q
Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)
Q Super. And if I may, I have a second question, which is about the review process, or rather the consultation process. Again, it is proposed that that process will change slightly. What do you think of that?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of you, Roger. Thank you very much for your time and your expertise today; they have been much appreciated.
Examination of Witness
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We now move to our second witness this afternoon. We will hear from Tom Adams. Tom is the acting director of data and targeting for the Labour party. And we will have until 3 am for—[Hon. Members: “Three am?”] Sorry, I knew there was something wrong there.
Tom, we have until 3 pm with you today. I will go round the Front-Bench spokespeople first and then other Members, as they signal, will ask you questions.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you for coming to join us today, Tom; it is much appreciated. I also thank all the political parties who we have before us today for some of their technical engagement with the Cabinet Office in preparing the Bill.
Tom, may I invite you to talk about the automaticity provisions in the Bill? By that, I mean the measure that we are proposing whereby the review’s recommendations should come into effect automatically, without the possibility of political influence either from the Government or from Parliament. What is your view on those provisions?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much. You said that the Government would have the ability to influence the instructions given to the Boundary Commissions. Could you point to where that is in the Bill?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q There is a final question in my set of questions. Indeed, we all believe in parliamentary sovereignty, but is it not Parliament that sets those rules rather than the Government?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Tom, thank you so much for coming to give evidence this afternoon. In the session so far, there have been quite a lot of contributions from members of the Committee about the balance between having constituencies as equal as possible and maintaining community ties. Members have given examples from their own areas about different ward sizes making it more challenging in some areas to do that without splitting wards than in others. I just wonder what you think, having overseen this on a more national level for the Labour party, about where the balance should lie. I suppose my question is this. Can you foresee specific circumstances in which in order to avoid splitting a ward, it would be preferable to have some level of exceptional flexibility on the 5% in relation to the quota? For example, if a handful of seats across the country were at 6%, would that be preferable to having wards that were split between different constituencies?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q What about things like polling districts? Do you have any concern about the use of polling districts? For instance, they have no legal standing. Does that concern you at all?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Finally, with regard to the register that is used to draw up the boundaries, the Government have tabled an amendment to the Bill to use the March 2020 register. What are your thoughts on that, and do you have any concerns about the accuracy of that register?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q Mr Adams, you are director of data and targeting. I think we all know that a lot of what you do is probably running numbers through spreadsheets. Have you run a number through your spreadsheet as to how many seats Scotland and Wales would lose under these proposals?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
That is very helpful; thank you.
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Will you elaborate on whether you think the allocation of seats between the nations of the UK is appropriate, and on whether your party has any views on the status of Ynys Môn?Q
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q This is the same question I asked Mr Pratt: how responsive and flexible has the Labour party previously found the commission, the assistant commissioners and the consultation process, in terms of the representations that the party has made? How flexible are they in responding to the party’s representations?
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
I am seeking clarification on your justification against the automaticity. You gave the example of its being at 5%, when it could be 7.5%. If the Bill went back for approval by Parliament, is it to be taken as read that, because it is set at 5%, your party would vote this down because you think it should be 7.5%? If that was to happen, the 2024 election would be fought on the current boundaries, which are 25 years out of date. Where does the balance come?Q
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
Q You rightly point out the size of the metropolitan boroughs in Birmingham and in my city of Leeds, which can easily have 18,000 or 19,000 people. A threshold of 5% or 7.5% will not stop you having to split wards in those big areas—they are enormous. Are we not talking arbitrarily about numbers, when we just need to get down to trying to get within the OSCE boundaries and working out the best way to split these enormous metropolitan wards?
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
I just add that the last time, we were able to form much bigger constituency numbers.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
I want to pick up on the point about wards and to explore your answer. Is there any particular reason why you do not think that wards should be split? An ordinary member of the public in a city often does not know what ward they live in. Prior to becoming involved in politics, I was not really aware of where I lived. What is the democratic principle?Q
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q To pick up on that, thinking particularly of cities, would that not vary from city to city? There is no real reason why one ward would have a distinct identity compared with the ward next door necessarily.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q Are you aware of the extent of the dispute between, for example, the Labour and Conservative parties over the last boundary change exercise? Do you know what proportion of constituencies were broadly agreed or not agreed?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
In the 2018 exercise—sorry, I am not familiar with it myself—do you know what proportion there was broad agreement over and what proportion there was not?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q I will ask a follow-up question and if you cannot answer, that is fine. Do you know how the Boundary Commission resolves a dispute of fact between the Labour party and the Conservative party? I mention those parties because I am talking about the seats in England, but do you know how it would approach that, if the two main political parties had a different view? What would the sequencing of its thinking be?
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Q But in the event that there was a dispute between them in a seat that the two parties contested—it is a process question—do you know how the Boundary Commission would approach that?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I don’t think he could answer that, Laura. I think that is more for the Boundary Commissions.
Laura Farris (Conservative, Newbury)
Okay, that is my last question then. Thank you.
Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)
Q Automaticity—a word I have much difficulty saying—proposes that decisions on boundary changes will be put into force directly. Would that prevent a recurrence of what happened with the Labour Government in 1969?
Jane Hunt (Conservative, Loughborough)
Q Okay, so you do not think it would make any difference if the Boundary Commission made the recommendations and they went straight to the Speaker.
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
Q Do you find it interesting that a Government with a majority of 80 are so concerned about their inability to get through a boundary review? Might that indicate that the underlying reason for the previous review not going through was because it caused so much discontent in their own ranks—in other words, because it did not respect local community interests and local boundaries?
John Spellar (Labour, Warley)
Q In your work, do you find that there is an underlying problem, in that while many Conservatives can understand the issue of local identity for rural areas and small towns, they have a complete incapacity to understand the effect of identity on neighbourhoods and communities in conurbations, which they see as sprawling, shapeless continuous masses?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
John, I do not think you are entitled to have fun with the witness.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
As no one else is signalling to ask a question, I thank Tom for taking the trouble to give us his evidence. It is much appreciated. I thank Members for asking their questions.
The witness on our third panel this afternoon, Mr Dave McCobb, is not here yet. I will suspend the Committee until 3 o’clock.
Examination of witness
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now hear from Dave McCobb, the deputy director of campaigns and elections for the Liberal Democrats, with whom we have until 3.30 pm. Dave, I believe that you are joining us from down the line—can you hear us loud and clear?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Excellent; we can hear you too, which is great. Dave, you are very welcome. Could you introduce yourself for the record? I will then call Chloe Smith to ask the first series of questions.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much for joining us today, Dave; it is great to have you. Thanks to you and many others on the Parliamentary Parties Panel who have also taken part in technical engagement on the Bill behind the scenes. I am using these questions to work through the major headings and themes of the Bill and, if I may, I would like to talk about the number of constituencies. Do you support the shift to 650 constituencies in this legislation?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Thank you very much. I am happy to leave that line of questioning there and allow other colleagues to come in.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Thank you so much for joining us, Mr McCobb. Given that we do not have a Liberal Democrat member of the Committee, could you outline any concerns about the content of the Bill?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q Thank you very much for coming before the Committee, Mr McCobb. As I have asked other representatives, because you guys tend to be the kind of folk who run numbers through spreadsheets, have you run these numbers through the spreadsheet and found the seats per nation? The reason I ask is that Scotland, for example, currently has 59 seats in the UK Parliament. Have you run the numbers to see how many seats Scotland would have under these proposals?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q In the evidence we have heard so far, colleagues from the Labour party and the Conservative party have broadly agreed that we could be looking at losing two or three seats in Scotland. Do the Liberal Democrats have a view on whether Scotland should remain at 59 seats?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Okay, thank you.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Thank you so much for giving evidence. I want to probe further on the issue of automaticity in the Bill. We are currently working on boundaries that are decades out of date. Much of the reason for that and for problems in the past has been the way in which political parties in Parliament have blocked changes to boundaries. As a party, do you support automaticity, because of the ability to have automatic changes?Q
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Surely the final recommendations not coming before Parliament would fulfil your criteria of not having political involvement at that crucial stage, which in the past has proved to be such a barrier.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Can you give an example of what might constitute influence on the Commission?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
And the issue of what constitutes pressure on a commissioner.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I think the question was, what do you think constituted pressure on a commissioner? You were going to come back to that point.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Following up on one of the previous lines of questioning on the premise of the Bill, which is about equal-sized constituencies and the fairness of that, I was reflecting on what Nick Clegg, when he was leader of the Liberal Democrats, said about that—very much supporting that as a principle. I was reflecting on the comments that you made earlier about the need to balance the issues of community over those of fairness. If it were possible to break down the units of work to, say, a polling-district level, to get that sensitivity on communities and on fairness, which the Liberal party has put prominently in the past, do you think that you could get a better balance, if you were dealing with polling districts, rather than wards, and you could therefore live with a far tighter tolerance of the variances between different constituencies?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
It is interesting: in Wales and Scotland, there is an ability to split wards, even to go down to postcode level. It can be done, so I suppose the question is why it is not done more in England.
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q I would like to go back a few topics to the allocation of seats across the nations of the United Kingdom. I appreciate, Mr McCobb, that you do not want to pass comment on any numbers, but I was wondering whether the Liberal Democrats have a view of how that allocation should be decided.
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
I was interested to hear your comment about the overall number of MPs at Westminster, that there should not be a reduction without further devolution. I completely agree with you. Do you have a view that you can offer us—or come back to us—on whether the differential devolution statuses across both regions and nations of the UK need to be considered when it comes to the allocation of seats?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
If there are no other questions, I thank you, Dave, for taking the trouble and time to come to us today and to present your evidence before us. We look forward to receiving that written evidence over the next two weeks, if that is possible.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will break until 3.30 pm, when our next witness joins us.
Examination of Witness
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now hear from Scott Martin, the solicitor for the Scottish National party. We have until 4 pm for this evidence. Scott, will you please introduce yourself, for the record?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Thank you, Scott. It is nice of you to join us. We will start with the Minister, Chloe Smith.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you for joining us, Scott. It is a great pleasure to have you with us. Thank you for some of the prior work that your party did as part of technical engagement. Given that in Scotland there are two of the protected characteristics—I mean protected constituencies; I make that mistake all the time, as I have the Equality Act in my head—and given, too, the rule on geographical area, can you tell us a little more about what that looks like in practice? Also, what considerations have to go into the review under those headings?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Would you be able to give us a little more colour around perhaps the reasons why constituencies might be protected?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Finally, aside from those reasons, would you take a view on whether there should be equal treatment across the nations of the United Kingdom?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Thank you, Scott. I am looking forward to talking much more about that with David Linden, as the Committee goes on.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
Talk about getting your retaliation in last, there, Scott.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Thank you so much, Scott, for giving evidence to the Committee. We have heard from other witnesses that their expectation is that Scotland will lose seats, and that England looks set to gain some. Can you outline the SNP’s view of the impact of the Bill in terms of the integrity and strength of the Union of the United Kingdom?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q On a slightly different issue, are there circumstances where the electoral quota could be relaxed to avoid ward splitting? The Committee has been exploring that throughout the day. For example, could you imagine it making more sense for a constituency to have a 5.5% variance than to split wards? Would that be preferable?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q I think I put on record on Second Reading that my preference was for either a minimum of 59 seats in Scotland, or zero with independence. Certainly the latter would be my preference, but I appreciate that we are not quite at that moment, though I am sure it is coming soon.
I want to ask about parliamentary approval. You will note that in the Bill, Parliament’s approval role is being removed. Can you share your view on that?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q Debate has sprung up today on the idea of building constituencies not on wards, but on polling districts. That issue is of interest to other members of the Committee too. Could you elaborate on that?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Q If I could presume on Mr Paisley’s indulgence ever so slightly, I have a final question. You touched on the much-discussed proposal for a Highland North constituency, which raised a few eyebrows after the last review. You touched on the fact that it would be almost impossible for a Member to conduct parliamentary business in that constituency without a helicopter. Do you have any ideas or proposals for ensuring slightly more manageable and sensible constituencies that do not take up a space that, in certain parts of England, would be represented by 73 Members?
David Linden (Scottish National Party, Glasgow East)
Thank you, Mr Martin.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
I do not see anyone else indicating that they wish to ask a question. Scott, you got off scot-free today. Thank you for your evidence and your time.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now hear from Geraint Day. We come to this panel early—we are moving swiftly—so we can give it as much time as required. Geraint, could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
You are very welcome here. Minister, could we start with you?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you, Geraint, for joining us today—it is great to have you here. Thank you for your participation and that of your party.
Can we talk a little about how political parties, large and small—I hope you do not mind my acknowledging that Plaid Cymru is one of the smaller ones in terms of parliamentary representation—respond to the boundary commissions? Will you talk a little about how easy parties find it to interact with the boundary commissions, and how we can encourage members of the public to interact with the boundary commissions through the consultation stages?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much. Just to be absolutely clear, the reason you start at the corner of Ynys Môn, as it were, rather than in south Wales, is that it is an island—or is it that south Wales is more populous? Can you be explicit on that point for the record?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Thank you very much.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Other witnesses today have indicated that Wales looks set to lose more seats than any other nation of the United Kingdom. The figure of eight seats has been suggested. Some of that is inevitable, due to population changes over the past two decades, but it does look like Wales will have quite a big overhaul in its Westminster parliamentary representation. Do you have an opinion on the introduction of some kind of protected status for Wales?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q To clarify, would you agree with a protected number of constituencies for Wales?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Finally, regarding the geography of Wales—I am particularly thinking of the Welsh valleys—some constituencies end up far below the threshold, but with mountain ranges between areas that might be put together. Do you have any comments to make about Wales’s geography, and whether anything could be done to mitigate disruptions and keep communities together? For example, would a slight deviation beyond the 5% threshold be helpful for maintaining community links in Wales?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q Diolch, Geraint, for joining us this afternoon. This morning, we heard from a witness from the Boundary Commission for Wales, who spoke a bit about the way in which local ties affect how the commission considers boundaries and boundary changes. When it comes to local ties, do you have any particular concerns about the commission’s considerations—its rules—not encompassing all the characteristics we might want to see reflected and respected in Wales?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Thank you very much for giving evidence to us today and, very importantly, for bringing the Welsh perspective into consideration. One of the provisions in the Bill is automaticity, which means that after about two and a half years of review, the recommendations automatically get brought into being, removing the possibility of political influence from the Government or indeed from Parliament, which has been a problem for us in the past. Do you have a view on that and will you support that measure?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q Has that check not become a full stop, which has left us in the position we are in now, with boundaries that are decades out of date and huge variance? Does it not worry you that a vote in a constituency in one part of the country has more or less value than a vote in another part of the country? Does that not cause you concern?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Q I have one final question. I was brought up in Wales. I understand when you talk about the unique nature of the geography of Wales. There is nowhere more unique than Ynys Môn, where you have a very clear boundary. I am a Hampshire MP, so I have huge sympathy for the need to protect and to support those island communities. Is there anything you would like to add to your comments, in terms of the particular importance of protecting that island community?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Speaking as a Hampshire MP, I am sure that the people who live on the Isle of Wight would understand exactly what you are talking about. Thank you.
Alec Shelbrooke (Conservative, Elmet and Rothwell)
Q Just as a quick point of principle, do you believe that voters in Scotland should have a greater representation than voters in Yorkshire, which has a similar population?
Shaun Bailey (Conservative, West Bromwich West)
Speaking as someone who cut his political teeth in Wales, actually in Ceredigion, the idea of language and culture is quite an important one. I am keen to understand and probe more into the language element. If we take Ceredigion as an example, when you have been faced with scenarios in previous consultations where there has been a crossover and, as in the example given before, there is a predominantly Welsh language community with one that is less so, how would Plaid Cymru engage with that process? What would be the thought process that you would go through in that scenarioQ ?
Shaun Bailey (Conservative, West Bromwich West)
Q That is really helpful. In terms of the engagement of Welsh language communities in the process, historically, particularly in mid-Wales, we have seen quite high local election turnouts in Welsh language communities. I am conscious of the work Plaid has done in ensuring that those people who are in the Welsh language community are able to engage with the process, notwithstanding the provisions in the Welsh Language Act, to ensure that it is as representative as it can be for some quite unique communities.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
There are no further questions from Members, so thank you very much, Geraint, for your evidence and for your time. We will move on to the next witness, whom I see waiting in the wings.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
We will now hear from Professor Richard Wyn Jones of the Wales Governance Centre. Professor Wyn Jones, you are very welcome. We will go round the table, starting with the Minister.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Thank you very much indeed, Richard, for joining us this afternoon. It is really valuable to have your insights.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q I have been trying in my questions to touch on all the Bill’s major issues; I wonder if I might return to the need to get the job done and the need for updated constituencies. I know that you have a great academic interest in devolved politics and, naturally, in topics that connect to that for Wales. Would you care to dwell on the length of time since we have had updated boundaries—broadly, around 20 years across the different Boundary Commissions—and on how much political change there has been in that time in Wales?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you very much for putting that on the record. Can you give us your view of the provisions in the Bill?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Just dwelling on that last point, are you saying that essentially the process should be free of political inference and it would be wrong for MPs to mark their own homework?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Thank you for that insight. Turning to the independence of the commissions, they are judge-led and there is an extremely high standard required for those appointments. I am sure everyone here would agree that they would want that to be upheld.
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
Q Yes, indeed. I suspect between our words we have made the point I was going to invite you to make, so thank you for that. For completeness, were you also in favour of there being 650 seats and there being the tolerance level that we have in the Bill?
Chloe Smith (Conservative, Norwich North)
I salute the crystal clarity of your thinking and the way you have put it to us. Thank you.
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
My question is about devolution, which looks very different in different parts of the United Kingdom. It looks a certain way in Wales and, even within England, there are huge variations. To what extent do you think that the Senedd boundaries should be taken into consideration, as opposed to ward boundaries? What do you think makes the best building blocks for Welsh constituencies that truly represent the communities and keep the communities together, while obviously striving to have constituencies as equal as practically possible?
Cat Smith (Labour, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
Q Finally, this question might stray beyond what you have considered, but what challenges do you foresee for the Welsh boundary commissioners in delivering a boundary review?