Trade Bill
Public Bill Committee, 16 June 2020.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Good morning. Before we begin, I remind everyone to please switch off their electronic devices, or to put them on silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings. The Hansard reporters would be very grateful if Members could email electronic copies of their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.
Does anyone have a relevant interest that they would like to declare? If not, I call the Minister to move the programme motion, which was agreed by the Programming Sub-Committee yesterday.
Greg Hands (Conservative, Chelsea and Fulham)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25am on Tuesday 16 June) meet—
(a) at 2.00pm on Tuesday 16 June;
(b) at 11.30am and 2.00pm on Thursday 18 June;
(c) at 9.25am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 23 June;
(d) at 11.30am and 2.00pm on Thursday 25 June;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
TABLE
Date
Time
Witness
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 10.30am
The Institute of Directors
The Confederation of British Industry
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 11.00am
Advertising Association
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 11.25am
Perpetuum Ltd
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 2.40pm
Ernst & Young
UK Trade Policy Observatory
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 3.10pm
The National Farmers’ Union
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 3.45 pm
The Chemical Industries Association
Make UK
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 4.10pm
The Trades Union Congress
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 4.30 pm
Monckton Chambers
Tuesday 16 June
Until no later than 4.50pm
Trade Remedies Authority
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 12.00pm
Client Earth
The Trade Justice Movement
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 12.30pm
Digital Trade Network
Sam Lowe, Centre for European Reform
Thursday 18 June
Until no later than 1.00pm
British Chamber of Commerce in Korea
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 3; Schedules 1 to 3; Clauses 4 and 5; Schedules 4 and 5; Clauses 6 to 12; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00pm on Thursday 25 June.—
I should point out that we have accommodated the Opposition’s desire to have more scrutiny sessions. There is now an additional scrutiny session on Thursday morning. That was arranged with the agreement that we would none the less finish considering the Bill by close of play next Thursday.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be sent to Committee members by email.
Examination of Witnesses
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Before calling on the first Member to ask a question, I would like to remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion the Committee has agreed. For this session, we have until 10.30 am, so it is an hour. For the record, I will introduce the witnesses, Allie Renison, head of EU and trade policy at the Institute of Directors, and Jonathan Brenton, head of trade policy at the CBI. Welcome, and thank you for coming.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We may have to ask you to speak up please, because we are struggling to hear.
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
I don’t think they will be able to hear you on mic.
Stewart Hosie (Scottish National Party, Dundee East)
Do you want to invite the witnesses in turn to make their opening remarks, and then we can see how this will work?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Q That might be a good way to progress. First, can I invite you, Allie Renison, to introduce yourself and make your opening remarks? Can you speak up, because we are finding it quite difficult to hear in this room? So please do project.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Q Thank you very much. Can I now ask Jonathan Brenton from the CBI to make his opening remarks?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you. Can I ask the Committee to put its questions, starting with the shadow Minister?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Good morning, Allie and Jonathan. Thank you for giving evidence to us. Neither of you mentioned the first clause, on the Government procurement agreement. Will you both comment on the opportunities your members see? That is something the Government have been very keen on, in speeches given by the Minister and the previous Secretary of State. What opportunities are there, given the provisions in the Bill, for the Government procurement agreement, and what else is needed for your members to make the most of those provisions? I will come back to further questions after we have an answer to that.Q
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Either of the witnesses can go first. Allie?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you. Can I ask Stewart Hosie—
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Can we have an answer from Jonathan Brenton as well to the same question?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Can I ask one follow-up? Jonathan, you mentioned improving market access. What would your members want to see to achieve that improved access?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Allie, you just mentioned the Buy America programme. What are your members looking for? Are you looking for something similar here, or are you looking for some way of getting round that kind of approach in the United States, or indeed in other countries?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
I will move on to Andrew Griffith and to Stewart Hosie. I remind witnesses to speak slowly, because the sound quality is not brilliant in the Committee Room. We are struggling to hear you. It would be very helpful if you could speak slowly and speak up.
Andrew Griffith (Conservative, Arundel and South Downs)
Good morning, Jonathan and Allie. As the representatives of the two pre-eminent business organisations, it would be good to hear from you about what jeopardy you foresee if we are not successful in passing the Trade Bill. As I understand it, collectively Q the roll-over agreements account for 16% of all our trade, but it may be much more for certain sectors. May I ask that first to Jonathan?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you. Allie, can we have your view please? Have we lost the connection? Allie can you hear us? Jonathan are you still on the phone? I will suspend the proceedings for a moment while we sort this out.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We will now carry on with our proceedings. I welcome back Allie to answer the last question. Allie, can you keep your answers concise because we are up against the clock? Thank you very much.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Yes, certainly.
Stewart Hosie (Scottish National Party, Dundee East)
Q Allie, I have one question for you. In your introduction, you said that while there are some concerns about future trade agreements, you are broadly supportive of this Bill because it delivers continuity. However, in clause 2(6)(a), it does allow the Government to modify primary retained EU law. Are there any anxieties among IoD members that those modifications, made in order to get some kind of a deal, may mean that we end up with a worse arrangement than we currently have with one or more countries?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Allie, I apologise for putting it like this but can you speak a little slower? I was up last night with two very young children, so my brain is taking a bit of time to get going this morning. One of the areas of contention about the Bill is the extent to which it should cover the future free trade agreements that we might want to enter into. I just want to get a sense of your two organisations’ understanding of theQ offensive and defensive interests for deals with the US and Japan.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Q Jonathan, would you like to add anything to that?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We appear to—hello?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
It ended so suddenly that I thought the line had gone again, but thankfully not.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Turning to how the scrutiny of these agreements, and of agreements more generally, works, we have the expert trade advisory groups. I believe that your organisations are part of both the strategic and the sector-based groups; perhaps you could confirm that. Can you say how effective those groups have been so far on the continuity agreements, and on the new agreements as well? Do you have any comments on how you might like things to change to maximise the benefits of your involvement for scrutiny?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
I just wanted to pick up on the Trade Remedies Authority and your views on the provisions in the Bill, the role of that body, how it is made up and how it represents the interests of various stakeholders, whether they are sectors, regions, civil liberties groups or whatever. Can you give us some thoughts on that, and on the appointment of its chief exec or chair?Q
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Thank you. This will have to be the last question, given the constraints on time.
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q Jonathan, you alluded to some concerns about the Bill at the very beginning of your appearance before us, so to speak. Certainly, the last time the Trade Bill had an outing, the CBI was clear that it wanted much more provision for Parliament to be able to do more scrutiny of trade agreements. Is that still the CBI’s position?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Could you expand on your hint about some concerns with the way the Bill has been drafted, which you alluded to in your opening remarks? Secondly, can you tell us whether the CBI still holds to the view it had the last time the Trade Bill was debated—that there should be more scrutiny of trade agreements by Parliament?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Yes.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Q Thank you. Allie?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
My constituency is in Staffordshire, and we obviously have a huge ceramics industry, which is exporting around the world. What do the witnesses think would happen to UK trade defences if the Bill was not enacted by 31 December this yearQ ?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Before the witnesses answer, I should say that I am prepared to go beyond 10.30 am, given the quality of the line. Please keep answers concise.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Jonathan, can you hear us? [Inaudible.] Bill, I think you had a comment.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
If we can get to the two witnesses, could we ask them to put their key points in writing to us, just in case Hansard missed anything? I am sure we would all appreciate that. I could not hear everything.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
In the interest of making sure we have a complete record of proceedings, that is a good suggestion. Thanks to our witnesses, Allie and Jonathan, for their forbearance and their time.
Examination of Witness
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Konrad Shek, deputy director for policy and regulation at the Advertising Association. We have until 11 o’clock. We are experiencing some technical difficulties, Konrad, so if you can speak slowly and project your voice, the Committee will appreciate it. Please introduce yourself for the record.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Yes, please.
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q How would you improve the Bill?
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
I want to ask you about the data collection provisions in the Bill. I would have thought that your members might welcome that data being collected, and being used to help to promote companies in this country around the world.Q
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Good morning, Konrad. Thank you for your opening remarks and your answers so far. You touched on procurement and the opportunities for your members. Do you see the provisions in the Bill as increasing those opportunities?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q To pick up on the theme of how we would improve the Bill, is there anything on procurement that you would like to see done differently that would be consistent with what is in the Government procurement agreement part of the Bill?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q What kind of support do your SME members receive to break into the sort of markets you have just described, and are there things that you would like to see being done better, to help to break down some of those barriers?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Is there anything that DIT could do differently to improve that support for you?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q To pick up on a point about the competitiveness of the sector, you said, quite rightly, that London is a global leader, both in market research and advertising output. Are you happy with the protection through the TRA, whether it be for intellectual property or otherwise?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q One of the areas of the Bill that we may discuss is future free trade agreements. Have you any particular offensive interests, in terms of future free trade agreements?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q My question is about what would happen to the trade preferences given under the EU’s economic partnership agreements with developing world partners. I am thinking about countries such as Kenya, Ghana and those in the Caribbean.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
If no more Members want to ask questions, I thank you very much for your time, Konrad. That was very useful for the Committee.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Roy Freeland from Perpetuum Ltd. This session can last until 11.25 am. Roy, could you please introduce yourself for the record?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
If you could introduce yourself, Roy, that will be great. I will now ask members of the Committee to ask you questions. We can hear you fine, so do not worry.
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
How would you want the Bill to be improved?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q Mr Freeland, I am going to relay the question, because we are in a big, echoey room. Gareth Thomas MP just asked you how you would like to see the Bill improved.
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q The floor is yours, sir.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Please do expand.
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Mr Freeland, are you still there?
Andrew Griffith (Conservative, Arundel and South Downs)
Q Good morning, Mr Freeland. To tease that out a little more if I may, my understanding is that the interoperation between the clauses relating to the GPA and the Trade Remedies Authority would achieve just what you are looking for—a set of reciprocal rules and sanctions, to the extent that those are not being applied. However, my understanding may be imperfect. Are you making a different proposal, or do you feel that the Bill as drafted achieves your objectives?
Andrew Griffith (Conservative, Arundel and South Downs)
I have no further questions. However, I think you should be reassured, Mr Freeland, and we wish you all the best with the successful exports of your business going forward.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Good morning, Mr Freeland. To follow up what you were saying about the Buy America provisions, rather than our taking a negative approach to procurement in America, would you like to see Buy British or something similar in the UK for SMEs such as yours?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Are you a member of a small business organisation? The Federation of Small Businesses is probably the best known in the UK. Regardless of its membership, what do you think is the general view of small and medium-sized enterprises in the UK of what you have just been saying?
Judith Cummins (Labour, Bradford South)
Any further questions? Mr Freeland, we are experiencing some technical difficulties at this end, so if there are no further questions from Members, I propose that we wind this session up slightly earlier. Thank you very much, Mr Freeland, for your evidence. It has been very helpful to the Committee.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Before I welcome the witnesses, I remind everybody to please switch their electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings, but Members can obviously drink water. I also remind Members that the Hansard reporters would be very grateful if they could email electronic copies of their speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.
We will now take evidence from the first panel. I welcome George Riddell, the director of trade policy at Ernst & Young, who is here in person, and I hope I can welcome Alan Winters of the UK Trade Policy Observatory. I think Charlotte Nichols wants to make a declaration.
Charlotte Nichols (Labour, Warrington North)
I want to declare an interest: my father is the president of the TUC this year.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Professor Winters, I am Graham Brady, and I am chairing the Committee. I know that you cannot see me and we cannot see you, so I am going to make sure everybody lets you know who is speaking to you when they are asking questions and making points.
I thank Professor Winters and Mr Riddell for joining us and helping the deliberations of the Committee. As Chairman, I am entirely independent. I will not be involved in the questioning, but I will be calling others to put their questions to you. I first call Bill Esterson, who is the shadow Minister. Could you introduce yourself before you start?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Thank you, Graham. I thank both our witnesses. Professor Winters, can you hear me okayQ30 ?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q The first question is to both of you. Can you give an outline of your analysis of the Bill and any gaps in it that you think might be rectified?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you, Professor Winters. Before I ask George Riddell to answer the same questions, I will ask a couple of follow-ups to what you said. You spoke about the GPA, and I think you mentioned changes in coverage of sectors in the UK. What did you mean by that?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q I have one other follow-up question from your initial remarks. You spoke about the implementation of trade agreements and said that the Government could change them without primary legislation. Could you say why you are particularly concerned by that aspect of the legislation?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q I would like to ask George Riddell to answer the opening question. Feel free to pick up any of what Professor Winters has said.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you for that. To compare what you and Professor Winters said about the update of the entities under the GPA provisions, you referred to what you termed “technical updates” on things like the names of Government Departments, whereas Professor Winters spoke about more substantive areas of change, such as environmental ones. Will you pick up the concern that he raised about the need for additional scrutiny and the expectation that there would be a more detailed approach than mere technical updates?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Hello, Mr Riddell. Thanks for coming. I hope that the Committee will bear with me, as this is slightly out of the scope of the Bill, but I was particularly intrigued by the point that you made about measuring our trade and exports in services better. You alluded to a way to become a global leader. What would good look like in that space, as we look to get the Bill through and then move on to the next phase?Q
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party, Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
Professor Winters, you were talking earlier about how the procedures, as set up, would allow the Government to set up major changes through secondary legislation without, perhaps, sufficient scrutiny. What powers do you believe Parliament should have in that situation over the Trade Bill?Q
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
Mr Riddell, you touched on services. I was thinking about the OECD report on what will happen to the economy. One of the reasons we will be particularly badly hit is the reliance on services, albeit that we will rebound quicker in the second year. I wonder what you think the consequences of not having the Bill would be for the service sector, which you are a member of.Q
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
My question is to both contributors; thank you very much for coming. It is about our trade with developing countries. Looking specifically at sanitary and phytosanitary measures, which Professor Winters mentioned and which can be used as trade barriers, but also looking in general, could the Bill be detrimental for developing countries, and how could it be improved to complement our poverty reduction commitments?Q
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Professor Winters, much of the debate so far has focused on continuity agreements, but I want to take you to new free trade agreements, which are another area of contention in the Bill. Will you compare the process for scrutiny of new free trade agreements, for example with the US, under the CRAG process with the processes of scrutiny in other Parliaments, including the US CongressQ ?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We will try to find out whether we still have Professor Winters. Mr Thomas is there something you would like to pursue?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
I would very much like to hear what he has to say. [Interruption.]
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q To follow up on that, I want to ask you to compare what would be envisaged under CRAG for future FTAs with what happens in other countries’ Parliaments in terms of the scrutiny of free trade agreements.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have to conclude by 2.40 pm, so I think this will be the last question.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
I want to pick up those points with both of you. You were referring, Professor Winters, to the US trade rep approach, whereby they go out, engage and consult and then set the parameters of what the negotiation objectives should be. For the purposes of clarity, do you think that setting that up is a massive missing piece in this legislation, as it would enable visible parliamentary involvement and the involvement of relative organisations, such as trade unions, sectors and devolved powers, to establish buy-in and engagement? If it is missing, should it now be put back in?Q
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Can I ask a 20-second supplementary, Chair?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
You can try.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q In your view, both of you, would UK-US negotiations be covered by this Bill?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Professor Winters?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Sorry, I was just asking whether you feel that the Bill covers the current UK-US negotiations.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
That brings us neatly to the end of the time allotted for questions to these witnesses. I thank both of the witnesses, Mr Riddell here in person and Professor Winters struggling with technology to join us. It is very kind of you both to assist. Thank you very much.
We will have a brief suspension while we engineer the next session.
Examination of Witness
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Welcome, Mr von Westenholz. We have until 3.10 pm to hear evidence in this session with the National Farmers Union. Will you give a brief introduction of yourself for the record?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Thank you very much. I should have introduced myself. I am Graham Brady, and I am chairing the session. I will call other Members to speak but will not ask questions myself. We will start with the shadow Minister.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Good afternoon, Mr von Westenholz, and thank you for giving evidence. What additional elements would you like to see addressed in the Bill or, to put it another way, are there any gaps in the Bill?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Mr von Westenholz, we have a bell ringing at the moment, for a three-minute suspension of the sitting in the Chamber. It will stop shortly, but will ring again when the sitting starts. It is probably worth pausing while the bell rings.
Apologies for the interruption—do continue.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you for that very comprehensive overview. You pointed out that the Bill covers the continuity agreements. Could you explain your concern that it will go beyond that? What is it that makes you think that it will go beyond dealing with the continuity agreements that it refers to? Is it just from what you have been told, or are there other things that lead you to that conclusion?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q As I understand it, a potential deal between the UK and Canada would come within the scope of the Bill as it is currently drafted. If I remember rightly, the National Farmers Union had some concerns about the EU-Canada deal—the comprehensive economic and trade agreement. Could you remind us of them? Could you also give us a clue as to whether you would have similar concerns about a UK-Canada deal?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q I have two questions. First, on the equivalent standards that you were just talking about, specifically those on animal health and welfare, can you give any more examples of how UK farmers could be undercut or treated detrimentally if that is not explicitly included in the Bill?
Secondly, on trade information, clause 7 provides new powers for HMRC to collect information on the identity and number of UK exporters, but the Government have said that providing that information will be voluntary. What impact would that position have on your members?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q Thank you for the examples on animal health. Similarly, for plant health, do you have any examples of how there will be a difference between our farmers and those in other countries, and of what a lowering of those standards might mean?
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
Q Nick, in your first answer you said that even continuity agreements provide opportunities. I wonder what opportunities for farmers these continuity agreements create.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Hi, Nick. Good to hear from you again. I just want to pick up the point about standards and get your views on mutual recognition agreements and how they will play for the farming sector. Do you have concerns about them? Can they hide a multitude of sins? On the Trade Remedies Authority, do you have any concerns about the Bill? Are there any omissions that might leave the farming and agri-food sector exposed?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q I was just asking about standards and mutual recognition agreements, and whether you have concerns that MRAs could potentially hide a multitude of sins.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Coming back to what you were saying about the negotiation of the new Japan agreement, my understanding is that the existing EU-Japan agreement does not include animal welfare provisions. When it is renegotiated, are there implications for animal welfare and food standard provisions in the renegotiation of the new UK-Japan deal?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
That brings us almost exactly to the end of our allotted time. Thank you, Mr von Westenholz, for your assistance to the Committee in giving evidence. We will again suspend briefly while we prepare for the next evidence session.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Our third panel of witnesses giving oral evidence is from Make UK and the Chemical Industries Association. We have until quarter to 4. Could I ask both witnesses to introduce themselves for the record—first Richard Warren in the room, and then Mr Cranshaw?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
If you would like to make any opening remarks, you are welcome to.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Q Thank you very much, Mr Warren. Mr Cranshaw, please introduce yourself and make any opening remarks you have.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We will move to questions now, Mr Cranshaw, but that is very helpful. Thank you. We will start with Bill Esterson, who is the shadow Minister.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Good afternoon, Mr Warren and Mr Cranshaw; thank you for joining us. May I ask you about the Trade Remedies Authority? How is the Trade Remedies Investigations Directorate, which is the TRA’s current form as part of the Department for International Trade, performing? How is it working with your organisations? Added to that, could you both comment on the proposed membership of the TRA and on what that should be? Richard Warren, would you like to go first?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Before I ask Mr Cranshaw to answer the same questions, may I ask a follow-up, Mr Warren? How essential is it that the non-executive membership is drawn from people in different sectors of industries affected by trade remedies? Can this be done by expertise, without having those backgrounds?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you. Mr Cranshaw, please respond to the same questions and expand on what we have just heard from Mr Warren.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you very much. While we are talking to Mr Cranshaw—others may want to come back on the trade remedy point—I wanted to ask about chemical regulations and whether you feel that there should be something in the Bill to cover them, given their importance to your industry.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Do you think that it should be covered in the Bill? It is not, as it stands. Do you think that it should be, and why?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q I have the same question for both of you, with your respective hats on. You mentioned that the Bill has been knocking around since 2017. What happens to the chemical industry if we do not pass the Bill?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q Mr Warren, if there were continuity trade agreements that did not roll over, what would be the consequences for the steel industry?
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Q Understood. So the not passing of the Bill makes the situation impossible, probably, for certain—
Katherine Fletcher (Conservative, South Ribble)
Understood; that is something to avoid.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q May I delve a bit further into the Trade Remedies Investigations Directorate? You were explaining, Mr Warren, about the one case going through, and some of the challenges in terms of expertise—that is, resource ability and capacity. To what extent do you think the Bill should be defining the scale of what a TRA should look like, recognising that, post this crisis, and given the economic headwinds globally prior to the crisis, there is a huge amount of pressure on Governments to reshore, with all that that will mean in terms of how Governments adhere to certain agreements? Maybe we can start with steel and go on to chemicals.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
It was a slow burn, but I have to say that the witnesses have excited the Committee, and I am getting lots of people wanting to get in, so if everybody can try to be quite crisp in their questions and answers, it would be appreciated. Antony Higginbotham next.
Antony Higginbotham (Conservative, Burnley)
This question is probably more for you, Mr Warren. When we talk about trade remedies and defences, a sector we always go to is steel. Has an assessment been made of the impact of not having a Trade Remedies AuthorityQ ? Has any assessment been made, for example, of the number of jobs that could be at risk if the body was not set up by 1 January?
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party, Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
Mr Cranshaw, on a comment you made earlier about a deal with the EU, including an agreement on data sharing, have you done any work on the implications, resources or costs of a failure to get such a deal?Q
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
Q You touched on this, but I want to ask both of you: are there particular countries with which it is very important to you to have continuity agreements, with a financial value? We have talked largely about what the Bill protects, but what do you see as the opportunities of those continuity agreements going forward?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Mr Cranshaw, I think you wanted to answer as well. Mr Cranshaw? We may have lost the line. We only have about three minutes left. Would you like to ask the witness a question, Gareth Thomas?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q What difficulties do you foresee in getting the Turkey agreement concluded by the end of the year?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Apologies for the bell, which is out of our control, as the sitting is suspended in the main Chamber. We are nearly at the end of the time allotted for this session. I thank both the witnesses and all the Members for being here. If Mr Cranshaw cannot hear us, we will make sure that he is subsequently thanked for joining us.
Examination of Witness
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Q Hello, I am Graham Brady. I am chairing the sitting. I will not be asking you questions, but I will call others to do so. Would you mind giving a brief introduction of yourself, and perhaps a brief scene-setting statement about your views on the Bill?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Yes, if you just give an overview of your views about the Bill, that would be really helpful.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have until 10 past 4 for questions, so perhaps we will see whether they are drawn out by questioning.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thanks very much for your written submission as well, Rosa. Perhaps you could spell out where in the world there are examples of the things that you say are missing from the Trade Bill that we could learn from, and what you would like done as part of the Bill to rectify some of the omissions you spelled out.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you for that. There are a number of agreements—about 20—that have already been signed that are part of the set of continuity agreements. They were signed without the Bill being passed. Do you have concerns along the lines that you have just set out about some of the things that have gone through because of a lack of engagement in those agreements?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Were enforceable rights included in those two countries’ previous agreements with the EU?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have lost the line. We will suspend briefly while we try to resume it.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Rosa, we are delighted to have you back. Bill Esterson has one further question.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q I wanted to ask you about the government procurement agreement and some concerns that you put in your written submission. Could you set out what your concerns are about the relationship between the GPA entities and the UK Government’s public contract regulations, which I think you say run out at the end of this year? Where does that leave us?
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
Q I have been trying to get a sense from the sector representatives of the impact of not having the continuity agreements on their sectors. Does the TUC have a sense of how many jobs are reliant on our getting these continuity agreements through the Trade Bill?
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
Q I hear what you are saying but my question was, do you have a figure for the number of jobs that the continuity agreements are supporting in this country at the moment that would be at risk without securing them?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have only another four minutes, so this is probably the last question.
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q Can I ask you to unpack and give some more examples of the workers’ rights that are at risk, Rosa? You have talked about freedom of association and you have mentioned pay, but could you give us some more examples of workers’ rights that would be at risk overseas and in this country, and of the impact on public services, which you think would be at risk by being included in the Bill rather than being exempt, as you are calling for?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Ms Crawford, thank you very much for your time and for assisting the Committee with your evidence. That brings us to the end of the time allotted for this session. We will suspend briefly while we get the next one set up.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We will now hear oral evidence from George Peretz, QC, of Monckton Chambers. We have until half-past 4 for this session. Let me introduce myself, Mr Peretz. I am Graham Brady; I am chairing the Committee and will be calling Members to put their questions, but I will not be questioning you myself. If you would be so kind as to give a brief introduction of yourself and any opening observations about the Bill, we would be very grateful.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Thank you very much. Do you have any initial observations on the Bill, or would you like to move straight to questions?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you very much for joining us, Mr Peretz. Could you just tell us your concerns about the scrutiny elements of the Bill as it stands?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
The scrutiny provisions.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
The scrutiny elements of the Bill.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Are there examples where a lack of parliamentary scrutiny has caused problems? Have agreements gone through with clauses in them that have caused difficulties?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Either would be good.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q May I ask about the Trade Remedies Authority? I think you said that that was one of your areas. There are two things to ask, really. We have the trade remedies investigations directorate currently carrying out the functions of the Trade Remedies Authority, which were passed in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018. First, is it absolutely essential that the Trade Remedies Authority is created, given that it seems to be functioning already? Secondly, whether it is in its current format within the Department or is the Trade Remedies Authority, how important is it that the non-executive representatives have expertise as representatives of parts of the economy?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Mr Peretz, thank you very much. I am keen to get one more question in in the time we have available, if possible.
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q Mr Peretz, could you compare the level of scrutiny that both the continuity free trade agreements and future free trade agreements will get in the UK, compared with the US and other Administrations?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Mr Peretz, thank you very much. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time available for this session. Many thanks for joining us, and for assisting the Committee with its deliberations. We will now suspend briefly while we prepare for the next session.
Sitting suspended.
Examination of Witness
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Q Our final witness is here in person, so we do not need to worry about the line going down and all the things we have dealt with this afternoon. We will now hear oral evidence from the chair designate of the Trade Remedies Authority until 4.50 pm. Please introduce yourself for the record and give any opening remarks you would like to make about the Bill or the Trade Remedies Authority.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Thank you for joining us, Mr Walker. Belated congratulations on your appointment. Please tell us your views on the level of parliamentary scrutiny of the continuation international trade agreements that are covered by this Bill, and whether you think it is adequate.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q Yes, sorry. I was asking whether you have a view, as the continuity agreements are a significant part of the Bill,—as is the TRA, which we will come on to. Do you have anything to say on that part of the Bill?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Q That is fine. Turning to the Trade Remedies Authority, which currently operates as the Trade Remedies Investigations Directorate, in evidence we have already heard, a comment was made about industry’s ability to properly fund its contributions to your investigations. Could you say something about ensuring that investigations can be conducted properly? I think there is only one underway at the moment, so that was the one the comment was made in relation to.
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
Q Could you give us a hypothetical scenario of something that could happen in the future, which, if we did not have a Trade Remedies Authority, “The consequences would be as follows”?
David Johnston (Conservative, Wantage)
Q In your role, do you see any particularly effective examples around the world of organisation that operate in the way that you hope the Trade Remedies Authority will?
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q Can you talk us through what happens if you take a decision and find that dumping has taken place? You propose remedies, but they are not accepted by the producers in the other nation. They have the support of their Government and they challenge the decisions that you have persuaded the Secretary of State to take.
Gareth Thomas (Labour/Co-operative, Harrow West)
Q Presumably there is scope for another nation to challenge Britain’s decision at the WTO?
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q I have two questions. The first is about the membership of the TRA. The Bill sets out that the maximum number will be nine. What do you think would be the optimal number, and what would the considerations for that be? We have heard today from farmers, industry representatives, small businesses and trade unions that they would all like to be members. How will you ensure that it will be fully representative of all stakeholders? That is my first question—maybe I will leave it there and come back for the second.
Fleur Anderson (Labour, Putney)
Q My second question is about the impact on developing countries. What is your assessment of the impact on developing countries of creating the TRA and the new negotiations it will have, and the impact on our poverty reduction commitment as a country? How will you be able to uphold that within the TRA?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Mr Walker, some of your opening comments were about just how expensive those sorts of interventions are, because of the amount of legal work involved. What sort of budget will you be working to? Do you think that the scale of the operation needs to be established in terms of the financial basis and the purpose and remit of the organisation? How is that funded and have you looked at relative nations, such as South Korea, to see the scale of their operations and how we compare?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Probably enough for today. In the event that a particular country says, “We may have a trade agreement with you, but with immediate effect, this sector is now protected in the interests of national security,” what powers do we have?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q Who should?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
That brings us to the end of our allotted time. I thank our witness very much. We are very grateful for your assistance.