Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 9 June 2020.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points. Members should switch off any electronic devices or switch them to silent. As in all Bill Committees, tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings. Obviously, I must stress the importance of social distancing in the Committee Room. I will suspend proceedings if at any point I am not satisfied that advice on public health is being observed.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25am on Tuesday 9 June meet—
(a) at 2.00pm on Tuesday 9 June;
(b) at 11.30am and 2.00pm on Thursday 11 June;
(c) at 9.25am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 16 June;
(d) at 11.30am and 2.00pm on Thursday 18 June;
(e) at 9.25am and 2.00pm on Tuesday 23 June;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
Date
Time
Witness
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 10.20am
Federation of Small Businesses;
London Chamber of Commerce and Industry
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 10.50am
The Confederation of British Industry;
Make UK
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 11.25am
The Migration Advisory Committee
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 2.40pm
British in Europe;
Professor Bernard Ryan
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 3.20pm
British Future;
Policy Exchange
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 4.00pm
Detention Action; Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 4.30pm
the3million;
The Children’s Society
Tuesday 9 June
Until no later than 5.00pm
Fragomen LLP;
No.5 Barristers’ Chambers
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 5, Schedules 2 and 3, Clauses 6 to 9, New Clauses, New Schedules, remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00pm on Thursday 25 June.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer. I welcome my shadows, the hon. Members for Halifax and for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East, to the Committee.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now go into private session to discuss lines of questioning.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from a representative of the Federation of Small Businesses, who is attending by audio link, and from a representative of the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry, who is with us in the room. I welcome our witnesses and thank them for appearing today. Before calling the first Member to ask the first question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee agreed earlier. We have until 10.20 am. Before we get to the questions, perhaps the witnesses could introduce themselves.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
On a point of order, Mr Stringer. May I first draw the Committee’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in relation to financial support that I receive in my office for work on immigration policy?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Thank you. Richard Burge, please introduce yourself.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I will start with a slightly more open question to the two witnesses. How do you see small businesses adapting to the new system that we have proposed?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Just before you do, Minister, it would be helpful if when asking questions, Members said who they were directing the question to.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Certainly, Mr Stringer. The question was an open one, directed at both witnesses, and it was basically about how they see small businesses adapting to the proposed new immigration system.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I would like to ask two follow-up questions, one to each witness, if that is acceptable. My first question is to Mr McTague, given what he has just said about mid-skilled workers being a particular issue. Does he see the skill level of skilled workers’ being changed to RQF3—that is, A-levels—as helping to address that issue?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
My question to Mr Burgh is about the fact that he talked about the process of sponsorship and becoming licensed. He may be aware that the Home Office is looking to streamline that system. Is there a particular change, or changes, he thinks we could make to the sponsorship licensing system that would help address some of the concerns he outlined?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
AsQ free movement comes to an end with this Bill and we transition to the minimum income requirement of £25,600, how have your members responded to that minimum income threshold?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q Martin, may I ask you the same question? I will repeat it: as we transition away from free movement and towards the minimum income threshold of £25,600, how have your members responded?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q An open question to both of you: if you could change one thing about the Bill to make it work for your members, what would it be?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
When the Bill was being formulated and opinion was being sought, the UK jobs market was entirely different from the one we shall see from the summer onwards, with many skills in very short supply—particularly for things like engineering, or even for people working in care homes or picking fruit. Do you not think that we shall see a situation in which a lot more British workers come into the jobs market, and that some of the concerns expressed in the past about the bureaucratic hurdles that might need to be coped with will actually not be such a great problem, because we will have a lot of very well-qualified and well-skilled British people? Is it right that the costs that we have just heard of from the Federation of Small Businesses will be a real incentive for companies to employ British people who are now, sadly, in many cases being thrown back on to the jobs market, in a situation in which we do not have, in effect, full employment? I think the FSB should be the first to answer that.Q
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
May I go first to the London Chamber of Commerce and then to the FSB? You have both spoken eloquently about the new challenges and red tape that the system will impose upon businesses. Looking at the other side of the coin, is there also not an extent to which this process puts some red tape and expense on potential employees from the European Union? It risks making coming to the UK to work less attractive. Q For example, I am from Germany and I have a job offer in London or I have a job offer in Dublin. Going to Dublin does not involve any charge or bureaucracy; going to London involves a visa, a health surcharge, and so on and so forth. Is there a danger that we are going to make this country much less attractive for skilled workers to come to?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q It was a question about whether or not there is a danger that introducing this system for EU nationals will make the United Kingdom much less attractive as a place for them to come and work, if they have fees and visas to apply for, whereas the equivalent job offer in Dublin, for example, would involve none of that.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q My other question relates to the proposals that we were debating this time last year, when the same Bill was going through Parliament, and there was a proposal for a 12-month visa for workers at lower pay levels. That was fairly controversial at the time, but now it has been scrapped altogether, rather than being improved, which some of us would have liked to see. Is that a change that you welcome, or would you want the Government to think again on that? Again, I will go to the London Chamber first.
Richard Holden (Conservative, North West Durham)
I have a question regarding the change for non-EU migrants where it looks like the thresholds for wages are going to be coming down. The question is particularly for the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry. What impact do you think that that might have on the ability to get migrants with the right skills into the labour market in London and across the rest of the UKQ ?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q How important are social protections, such as access to healthcare or pensions, to the recruitment and retention of employees from the EEA and around the world? Perhaps we can start with Mr Burge.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I have a follow-up or separate question for you, Mr Burge, about higher-skilled workers and particularly graduates. What can the Government do, or what have the Government been doing, that might continue to make the UK an attractive destination for overseas graduates and EEA graduates in particular?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Thank you. Mr McTague, have you any comments on the approach to attracting higher-skilled overseas job applicants?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Thank you.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q My question is for Richard Burge in particular and concerns international companies in London that might well have existing employees based in Japan, Singapore or the United States who wish to come to London to work as part of their company’s operation. There are also companies that might be based in the European Union whose employees have habitually come to work in London but, under the new regime, will be in the same category as those first workers. My question to Mr Burge is, under the new regime, how will that system function? Will it be an equivalent situation, something that companies can work with easily, or will there be problems for international workers coming to the UK within a company that might even be based in London, but certainly an international one?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
I remind hon. Members of the scope of the Bill, which is EEA nationals, EU nationals and Swiss nationals, not the rest of the globe.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Thank you for that guidance, Mr Stringer. Of course, EU nationals will be in the same category as non-EU nationals were. Does the Bill provide the equivalence of the posted workers directive? Under EU regulation, under that directive, people can work in other EU member states. Will there be equivalence in this to cover that particular situation, where some workers—particularly people such as lorry drivers but other sectors too—may use that regulation to enable them to work?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North)
I wanted to ask a follow-up to the question of the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax, about the income threshold. In some answers, we have heard about the effect that that might have on particular sectors, such as the care sector. Will you both say more about the regional impact of the provisions of the Bill? Do you have particular concerns for the regions? I understand that Richard Burge is speaking for the London Chamber of Commerce, but I am interested in what other chambers of commerce around the country might be thinking.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North)
Q Do you feel that by 1 January there will be a regime in place that will be sufficiently efficient to ensure that members of the Federation of Small Businesses will be able to have confidence that the scheme is going to work well for them and the requirements of their business? I am mindful of the very difficult situation that we are in with covid-19, as has been said already, and the bandwidth that is available in government at the moment.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Since we have a little time left, to what extent does the shortage occupation list offer a partial solution to some of the challenges you face? We sometimes hear criticism that it is slightly unwieldy, slow and unresponsive. What is the experience of your members—from the London Chamber first?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Mr McTague, what is the experience of your members with the shortage occupation list?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We seem to have a technical problem. While we are trying to sort that out, are there any questions to Mr Burge?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q One final question, if I may, Mr Stringer. It is a broader question about the nature of this Bill, since, obviously, this morning we are going into the fine detail of a future immigration system. In fact, the Bill is pretty much silent on that and essentially hangs the powers to put that system in place on the Home Secretary. That would be the end of MPs’ involvement to all intents and purposes. Is that the appropriate way to go about making immigration policy?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
May I just check that Mr McTague is there? Apparently, he is not. We will try to get him back.
Douglas Ross (Conservative, Moray)
Just while we are waiting to reconnect, I notice that the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry sometimes speaks on behalf of other chambers—in your answers you have said a number of times, “And my colleagues in other chambers.” What dialogue have you had with, for example, the Scottish chambers of commerce and others around the country to speak on their behalf?Q
Douglas Ross (Conservative, Moray)
Q The Scottish chambers of commerce are not part of that.
Douglas Ross (Conservative, Moray)
Q So only eight in Scotland.
Douglas Ross (Conservative, Moray)
Q So just to check for the record, a large proportion of the chambers that you are speaking about are not the Scottish chambers.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Do we have Mr McTague?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Thank you, Mr McTague. Sometimes the shortage occupation list is said to be an answer to some of the issues that you have flagged up this morning. At other times, we hear criticism that the shortage occupation list has been a slow and clunky process. What has been your members’ experience of the shortage occupation list?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q How would you try to improve it?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
What improvements would you want to make to the procedure?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q My final question to you, Mr McTague, is a broader question about the Bill. We have spoken a lot about the future immigration system that has been proposed by the Government, yet the Bill is pretty much silent on that. In fact, it is basically just handing a blank cheque to the Home Office to implement that. Do you think that is the best way to go about scrutinising and making immigration policy, or would you prefer to see the rules made in a different way?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Can you try one more time?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q I will try again, Mr McTague. It is a broad question about how we make immigration policy. This Bill essentially gives the Home Secretary the power to put in place a system with limited scrutiny and oversight from Parliament. Do you think that is the appropriate way to go about things or would you prefer to see immigration policy made in a different way?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Is there no way you can have flexibility but with parliamentary oversight?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Flexibility does not mean that you cannot have parliamentary oversight, does it?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Yet, ironically enough, you have spent most of your evidence saying that the Home Secretary was not responding to what business was saying at all.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
I will stop digging there.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no further questions, I thank Mr Burge and Mr McTague. These are not ideal conditions, but thank you for giving us valuable evidence this morning.
Examination of Witness
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Good morning, Mr Fell. The Bill Committee will now hear your oral evidence. I am sorry about the technical hitches; you will be on your own, not with Make UK.
Thank you very much for agreeing to give evidence today. If you would like to briefly introduce yourself, we can move straight to questions. We have about 10 minutes.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I will ask one question, because of constraints of time. How do you see your members working with the proposed new migration system?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
BearingQ in mind what you have just said, what are the things that you would really like changed about the Bill? Alternatively, what would the Government need to do to support you to manage the impact that it will have on your businesses?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Last year, when you gave evidence to the Bill Committee, you described tier 2 as a
“restrictive, complex and burdensome system.”––[Official Report, Immigration and Social Security Co-Ordination (EU Withdrawal) Public Bill Committee, 12 February 2019; c. 67, Q178.]
Could you say a little more about what you mean by that?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q May I also ask about the costs that will be involved now? How much more expensive will it be for businesses who have never done this before to recruit workers from the EU?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q To turn the question around a little and look at it from the perspective of prospective employees as opposed to employers, if somebody has a job offer in London or Dublin, is there a danger that imposing the tier 2 system is going to make London much less attractive than Dublin, if they are faced by, for example, visa fees and visa applications and immigration health surcharges?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
How important is access to social protections such as health cover or protection of pension rights to the recruitment and retention of EEA nationals?Q
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q In terms of highly skilled workers, including graduates, what is in place to support employers to access the skills that they need?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We have just over a minute for a very quick question and answer.
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North)
Q I just wanted to ask what your views are of any regional implications of the changes that are to be introduced by the Bill.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Mr Fell, thank you very much for giving evidence to us. We found that very valuable. I am sorry about the technical difficulties we had getting through to you. We now move to our next witness.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Welcome to the Committee. I apologise for the difficulties we had before. You will be on your own. First, can you introduce yourself to the Committee for the record, and then I will ask the Minister to ask you a question?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Mr Thomas, how do you see the manufacturing sector working with the proposed new migration system?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
I will say it slowly; it will sound weird. How do you see the manufacturing sector working with the new system?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q As free movement comes to an end, Mr Thomas, how satisfied are you that the Migration Advisory Committee and the shortage occupation list understand the requirements of the manufacturing sector and are able both to respond to potential shortages in skills and to understand the variety in salaries paid in your sector?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We have very limited time, and three Members are indicating that they wish to ask questions, so please make the questions and answers brief.
Angela Richardson (Conservative, Guildford)
Mr Thomas, in your first answer you mentioned that 95% of the workers in production and manufacturing are from the EU. What proportion of that percentage are UK workersQ ?
Angela Richardson (Conservative, Guildford)
In your first answer you said that 95% of workers in production are EU nationals. What percentage of that are UK workers?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Given what you said, Mr Thomas, and everything that is going on, would it be helpful for the implementation of the new immigration system simply to be postponed?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
And, quickly—
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Order. No, sorry. Robert Goodwill, very briefly.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Many of the concerns about being able to get skilled workers such as engineers were expressed before the current covid crisis. Do you think that, in the new situation that we will be in, there will be lots of British workers with these skills looking for work? Therefore, if it is slightly more difficult to get in an EU worker, it might actually benefit British workers looking for jobs in your sector.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Mr Thomas, thank you very much for the full evidence that you have given. It is valuable and I am sorry about the technical difficulties that we had in getting through to you.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We shall now hear oral evidence from the Migration Advisory Committee. May I take this opportunity, while the witness is coming in, to remind hon. Members about the scope of the Bill. It does not encompass a points system. I did not want to interrupt the previous witness, given the problems that we have had, but perhaps we can remember the scope of the Bill.
Examination of witness
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Mr Bell, thank you very much for coming today. I remind members of the Committee that at 11 o’clock the bell will ring and there will be a minute’s silence for George Floyd. We will stand for that minute. Would you like to introduce yourself, Mr Bell, for the benefit of the record?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I will start with perhaps a slightly more general question. The Migration Advisory Committee has recommended that in the context of the Bill ending free movement with the European Union there should not be a dedicated general route for employers to recruit at or near the minimum wage from outside the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Would you like to explain to the Committee the reasoning behind that recommendation?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
In terms of that general route for recruitment, the MAC made some specific comments on the care sector, again in the context of the Bill ending freedom of movement. It was very specific against a sectoral scheme. Could you explain some of the rationale for that?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Some of the earlier witnesses—particularly those from the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry and especially from the Federation of Small Businesses—talked about the need for flexibility when it comes to those sections of the Bill setting how we will empower Ministers to set the future migration system. Given that the Migration Advisory Committee’s role is to provide expert advice to the Government—to myself and the Home Secretary—how do you see it being able to respond to the demands of the new system in the context of the Bill?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q The Migration Advisory Committee also advised specifically against having regional variations in the migration policy, specifying that there should not be any in the Bill. Is there any particular reasoning behind that recommendation?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q Just to come back to the points you made about social care, I am inclined to agree with a great deal of what you have said about social care. There will be a shock to the social care sector delivered by that cut-off when free movement comes to an end, combined with—we hope—the UK’s emergence from the coronavirus pandemic. We have heard concerns about the Migration Advisory Committee, including concerns that it is not particularly dynamic. When you factor in all those considerations, would the committee need to do a lot more to assess shortages in social care workforces at that moment in history?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q When you talked about those who fall below the skills and salary threshold not being considered by the MAC, is that not entirely the problem with this approach? Are we still not identifying where there are workforce and skills shortages because we are looking at only half of the workforce?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q I am very mindful that you are from the Migration Advisory Committee. Given what you have just said about analysing and reforming the shortage occupation list, do you also think that, having identified the gaps, there should be a role in informing domestic skills policy as well as migration policy?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Professor Bell, you referred to the care sector, but another sector that I am sure regularly makes representations to the MAC is the agricultural sector. We often read stories about crops rotting in the fields if we cannot get enough people to work there. Indeed, the Government have a seasonal agricultural workers scheme for non-EU workers. Do you feel that the provisions in the Bill will accommodate the needs of agriculture, or will the sector continue to need special exemptions to allow that to happen?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q So you think that the current scheme should be extended to include EU workers. Can they come under the provisions in the Bill?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Finally, do you carry out any analysis of the economic impact of workers who come here, put down their roots, bring up their children and pay their taxes and of workers who may well see their time in the UK as being short, who send a lot of the money back to their families, and whose children are in education in other countries? Do you carry out any analysis of the impact on the UK economy of that type of immigration?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Is it more likely that EU workers will come and stay? If they are deterred from doing so, we might have more workers from outside the EU, who might not stay so long.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Professor Bell, may I take you back to what the Minister asked you about regional variations? It is important to be precise about exactly what the MAC recommended. The Minister suggested that the report recommended against regional variations, but you were very careful to say that your report addressed regional variations and salary thresholds. The MAC was not looking at the broader issue of regional visas or devolution of immigration control.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q On the salary threshold?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Is it fair to say that your report says the decision was finely balanced, that there were arguments on both sides and that the majority of people responding to the consultation supported the idea of regional variations in salary threshold?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q The report called for a pilot scheme about our remote areas. What was the reason for that, and are you troubled in any way that the scheme seems to have since disappeared?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q I appreciate that there are challenges, particularly around tying a person to an individual employer, but that is not dissimilar to what we do now with tier 2. There are procedures to transfer to another employer, if criteria are met. That is a something worth exploring. In relation to Northern Ireland, did the report go as far as saying that consideration should be given to regional variations in salary there?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Is that simply because you could be an employer in Northern Ireland and just a few miles down the road somebody is able to access labour without reference to tier 2, experience, salary thresholds or whatever else might be in place?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
I think—
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
I call Kate Green.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I just wanted to ask for clarification. I may have misheard or misunderstood you in relation to one of your earlier answers, when I think you said that there were alternative labour pools—for example, family members or refugees who have secured status. To what degree is that potential pool of labour already fully employed in the UK, and what do you think the shape of that pool of potential labour is likely to look like in the future? I guess I am interested in the degree to which we really could look forward to seeing that as replacing lost labour supply should fewer EEA nationals come to the UK.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q In relation to part-time work, there is no pro-rating of part-time salaries in the Government’s £25,600 threshold. Were you asked to look at the implications of that, including the gender equality and other implications? If so, what are your conclusions?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North)
Q I want to ask about an issue that Make UK raised in their evidence. They talked about the lack of people with the relevant green-skills qualifications that we need. We know from today’s news that we are relying on renewable energy at the moment, and moving away from coal. The evidence they gave was that a lot of the people with those skills are based in Denmark and Germany. Listening to what you said, there is obviously a longer term issue about skilling up our own population. Could you explain how the provisions the Government are introducing will assist us now in dealing with the shortages that we have in that important sector, around offshore wind and renewables generally?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
I cut off Stuart McDonald earlier, and I think he had another question. We have a little more time, so he may finish.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Thank you, Mr Stringer. To go back to the shortage occupation list, I am sure that it will be very welcome that there will be a shortage occupation list for Northern Ireland. However, when I speak to businesses in Scotland, and also elsewhere, there is a criticism that people find it slow, not very responsive and rather clunky. You spoke a little about the work to try to make that a better process. Could you give us a broad understanding of when a job becomes a shortage occupation? A couple of vacancies in Cornwall or Caithness are clearly not enough. Where is the point at which it becomes in shortage?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
What do you say to those who have criticised the system for being too slow and not responsive? What is changing?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the questions today.
(Afternoon)
Examination of Witnesses
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Good afternoon. This is the second evidence session, and it will be a mixture of people who are with us physically and people who are here virtually, so we will have to cope as best we can. Our first witnesses are a representative of British in Europe, via audio link, and Professor Bernard Ryan. We have until about 2.40 to take that evidence. I will go first of all to the Minister, then to the Opposition spokesman. Is anybody else desperate to ask a question at the moment? You can put up your hand and intimate to the Clerk that you would like to speak.
Those of you who are sitting at the back of the hall—you are very welcome, by the way—are equally members of this Committee. Apparently if you want to speak, you have to go to a microphone over there. Are we all happy to start the session? We have to ring our witnesses now, so please be patient.
We are ready to start with our first panel of witnesses. Thank you for coming today. This session will have to end at 2.40pm.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q 64 It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Mr Morgan, what implications do you see for British citizens living in Europe regarding the social security co-ordination provisions in the Bill?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
It was about what implications you see for British citizens in Europe regarding social security co-ordination provisions in the Bill.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Speaking as a Minister, a Minister cannot make a regulation that breaches international law, just to be clear on that point. Would you have concerns if, for example, an agreement on social security co-ordination was reached but the legislation did not allow the Government to quickly implement it?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Minister, I think you need to lean in to the microphone and speak loudly.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
A Minister cannot breach international law in regulations. Would you have any concerns if the legislation, for example, did not empower a Minister to quickly implement an agreement in relation to social security co-ordination if one was reached with the European Union before 1 January?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Yes. Effectively, there are negotiations ongoing, and the issue is what happens if the Government reached an agreement and wished to implement it before that time.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Perhaps I can come to Professor Ryan first. Thank you very much for your written submission to the Committee. Can you talk us through what you think might be missing from clause 2Q ?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
By the way, I do not know how our other witness is going to hear you. The acoustics are not brilliant, and I suspect that they are quite a long way away. They are already having difficulty hearing anyway, so speak up loudly, slowly and clearly. Sorry to interrupt.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Could you hold on a moment, Professor Ryan? Can we check the line, please? Let us carry on.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q In relation to deportation for Irish citizens, since 2007 the UK Government’s policy position has been to deport Irish citizens, as you mentioned, only where a court has recommended deportation in sentencing, or where the Secretary of State concludes, due to the exceptional circumstances of the case, that the public interest requires deportation. Are you aware of any examples of that happening in practice in recent history, and what were the circumstances?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
May I continue, Professor Ryan, on deportation? This very same issue arose this time last year, in a previous Bill Committee. Is it right that, at that time, the Immigration Minister made a commitment to the higher threshold, even though it was not in the Bill? Do I recall that correctly?Q
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q That prompts the question: why not just put it on the face of the Bill?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q May I ask a couple of questions about family rights? In your written evidence, you say that Irish citizens in the UK will be able to be joined by non-EEA family members, because they will be treated as settled persons, essentially. Is that right?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Is that because the fact that they are not in the UK obviously means that they cannot be treated as settled persons? Okay. I will ask Mr Morgan a question, if he is able to hear.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Are you receiving us loud and clear?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Mr Morgan, I understand from your submission that there are issues with the Bill in relation to UK nationals who want to come back, with family members, to the UK from countries in the EEA. Could you explain what those issues are?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Also, Mr Morgan, if you can hear me, what do you think would be the consequences or the likelihood of British people moving to the European Union if the social security provisions that are currently in place, which allow for aggregation and recognition of contributions, were to change in the future?Q
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Would there be any concern for the UK, if it were to be less likely that people would choose to move to other European countries in the future?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Yes.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q This may not be an issue in which you are involved, but in relation to British owners of properties—second homes, for example—in Europe, the Government are obviously willing to welcome people here on six-month visitor visas but the same, as I understand it, is not necessarily true of other European countries, which would apply the 90 out of 180 days rule in the Schengen arrangements. Would that be a concern for British owners of property in Europe, in your experience?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Professor Ryan, in relation to British-born children of Irish nationals, are there any particular concerns that we ought to be aware of in relation to this legislation?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
The Dublin regulations deal with a situation where, for example, an economic migrant or an asylum seeker who present themselves in the UK can be repatriated to the country where they first claimed asylum, and indeed deal with family reunion. Professor Ryan, will this Bill have any implications for the operation of the Dublin arrangements? Could the Bill be improved to enshrine some of its obligations on that statute book, or is that completely unnecessary?Q
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q I have a question for British in Europe. You talked about inequalities. Is it not the case that there is currently an inequality whereby EU or EEA citizens living in the UK have better rights than British citizens in terms of bringing spouses into the country, because the £18,600 income rule does not apply? Indeed, if a British citizen can determine that they are resident in the EU under the so-called Surinder Singh case, they can apply to have that rule addressed. Would you say that by addressing that inequality, we are ensuring that British citizens would have the same rights as everyone else, rather than the current unusual situation in which it is easier for an EU citizen to bring a spouse into the UK?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Professor Ryan, while we have the opportunity, I want to ask you further about the third group of issues you addressed in your briefing paper—the provisions of the Good Friday agreement. It seems from your paper that the issue is that, in order to assert certain rights—protection against deportation, for example, or perhaps access to some family rights—people would have to assert their British citizenship, which, reading between the lines, you say is not really consistent with the Belfast agreement. Your solution is to put some sort of equivalence in the Bill for all persons of Northern Ireland. Is that a fair summary?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much. That concludes our session with this panel of our witnesses, who I thank for coming here today or speaking via audio link.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Welcome to our second panel of witnesses. We are going to hear oral evidence from British Future and Policy Exchange; thank you very much to our witnesses for coming today. We have until 3.20 pm at the latest for this evidence session. Can the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
You are very welcome. As we normally do, the Minister will start by asking you a couple of questions, and then the Opposition spokesman, and then other Members will come in. Perhaps other Members who wish to ask questions could intimate to the Clerk that they would like to ask a question.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I have two questions, one for each witness; I will ask them both and then we can just cover them off at the same time.
The first question is to Mr Goodhart. I noticed that the January 2018 report from Policy Exchange, “Immigration after Brexit”, welcomed the ending of free movement. As you will appreciate, the main provision of the Bill is to alter UK law to remove the provisions for free movement. I wondered how you saw that, and how you saw the system that will seek to replace it, which we confirmed in a policy statement in February.
My question to Ms Rutter is this: given, obviously, the area that she covers in her group’s interest, I wonder how she sees the working of the European settlement scheme, which has now had 3.5 million applications, in terms of securing the continuing rights of EU citizens in the UK, or EEA citizens in the UK to be exact, under the withdrawal agreement.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q More broadly, through your work at Policy Exchange and British Future, how have you seen public attitudes towards immigration change over the past 12 months? David, may I come to you first?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q David, you have already touched on this a little bit. Some sectors will be impacted by the end of free movement harder than others. Some of those have also been thrust into the spotlight because of the coronavirus crisis. To what extent is the MAC really able to respond to some of those workforce issues? How much more dynamic would it need to be to respond to them quickly?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q We have heard this morning from the MAC that it is the organisation tasked with assessing workforce shortages. That then feeds into our immigration strategy and not necessarily our domestic skills strategy. That is a problem that we need to think about how to reconcile.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
If the MAC, as an organisation, is assessing where we have workforce shortages, that only informs our immigration approach. It should also be informing our domestic skills strategy.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q But do the same organisations shape Government policy in the way that the MAC would have the ability to do?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q Can I put the same question to Jill Rutter? What would need to change so that the MAC was really equipped to respond to these workforce issues?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Can I ask a broad question? It will be a slightly controversial one in these surroundings. To what extent are changes in public attitudes to migration over the last 10 years related to politics and the media? Is it not quite striking that towards the middle of the last decade was when public concern about migration was at its highest, and that is probably when the political debate, if I can call it that, about migration was at its height? The tailing off in public concern also tallies with the fact that, since the referendum, migration has not been on the front page of every newspaper or at the forefront of political debate.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Does that not illustrate exactly what I am saying about personal experience? Sometimes concern about migration is lowest in places where there are significant levels of migration. If you do not have that personal experience, you must be relying much more on the media, political debate and so on.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Any thoughts on that, Mr Goodhart?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Really? At any time?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q But we are talking about a decade of “Go home” vans, the Windrush scandal—
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Posters during the Brexit referendum, with refugees—
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q It was about the free movement of people. The poster that was put up had absolutely no relation to the EU referendum at all, and it was xenophobic.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q But what was the point of it? What was the point of that poster, if it was not xenophobic? It had nothing to do with the free movement of people. What was the point of putting up that picture?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q You are talking about the “Go home” vans now. I was talking about the posters that were put up by certain political parties during the referendum.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q I agree with you as regards employers, but we will come to that debate a little later.
Jill Rutter, may we come back to you? Is there not also an issue about the fact that, compared with other countries—Canada being a particular example—very little effort has ever been made by UK Governments on an integration strategy or on investing in smoothing over some of the challenges that arise because of migration in particular pockets of the country? We had a small fund—I cannot even remember the name—that Gordon Brown introduced, which was scrapped by Theresa May, only for her to introduce a small pocket fund called the controlling migration fund. At best, is that half-hearted compared with what other countries have attempted?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Mr Goodhart, should we all be doing more to have a strategy for integration, for citizenship?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Thank you very much, everyone. This session so far has been useful in exploring what factors influence public opinion on immigration, which of course becomes a very political issue in a referendum or a general election; in fact, that was Stuart’s line of questioning. How much does the media affect that, and how much is an altruistic wish to do the best thing for the UK economy?
Jill, I note that you are a co-author of a document published in September 2018, “The National Conversation on Immigration”. I wonder how much that document reflected some of the feeling in the north of England and parts of the country that maybe do not see immigration as allowing somebody to make your coffee in the morning, clean your house or work as your au pair; those that, as we heard this morning, see it more as a limitless supply of Romanians and Bulgarians who can fill your job if you want a pay rise. Do we have a north-south divide on attitudes to immigration, and do you think that was a factor in the fall of red wall seats at the last general election?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Will the Bill give us the power to do that more?
Taiwo Owatemi (Labour, Coventry North West)
My first question is to British Future. You said earlier that the public’s biggest concern in immigration is ensuring that they are treated fairly. Do you believe that the Bill will allow EU citizens to be treated fairly?Q
Taiwo Owatemi (Labour, Coventry North West)
Q Given that the Bill will affect a large number of EU nationals living in the UK, how can the Government ensure that those affected are aware about the effects of the Bill on their daily lives?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Right. I think that ends our session. Thank you very much to our witnesses for coming and giving your evidence. We are very grateful.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Good afternoon and welcome to this Public Bill Committee. We will now hear oral evidence from Detention Action and the Immigration Law Practitioners Association. Thank you for coming today; we have until 4 pm. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the sake of the record, please?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We will start with a question from the Minister, then the Opposition spokesman, and then other colleagues will come in as they wish.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I will start with a question to Mr Berry. You will be aware that the Law Commission published its report on simplifying the immigration rules. One of the places we want to go to with the changes in the Bill is having a single set of migration rules. What opportunities do you see that presenting, and what is your view so far on the response that has gone out in terms of simplifying and where you see that further work could be done?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Perhaps slightly later we can talk about international agreement. Obviously, the other aspect of this is the social security co-ordination clauses. There are negotiations going on, and there is a range of potential outcomes. Do you have any particular views about that clause?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q And do you have any view on the fact that clause 5 will be stretched into devolved competence, subject to legislative consent motions? Is that part of your consideration at all?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Northern Ireland as well.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q Bella Sankey, perhaps I can come to you first. Will you outline for us what your hopes for change are, in terms of detention, through this piece of legislation? Will you also comment on David Goodhart’s remarks that those who, for one reason or another, have not applied for pre-settled or settled status through the EU settlement scheme may find themselves in a very precarious immigration position, and could find themselves in detention? What are the implications for those people, and what might need to change?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Order. Can I just say that this is a Public Bill Committee, not a Select Committee, so we have to be focused laser-like on the Bill? I remind witnesses and questioners of that very important point. We do not need any general discussion of the issues around it; we are just talking about the Bill.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q Further to that, if people have not applied to the EU settlement scheme by the time it closes at the end of June next year, people will potentially be a situation where they could be in detention centre.
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q Thank you very much.
Adrian Berry, you have already outlined some of your concerns about the sweeping Henry VIII powers in the Bill. Would it be fair to say that not only does that restrict the ability of Parliament to scrutinise further developments in immigration policy and immigration law, but that it provides a great degree of uncertainty for immigration lawyers, who are working with people in the system about what those future policies and approaches might look like?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q So the responsible thing for an Opposition to do would be to ask the Government to be explicit in putting all of those implications and those potential changes in the Bill?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Mr Berry, we have just heard some discussion about the possibility of citizens eligible for the settled status scheme not applying for it. For what reasons will people miss the deadline? Can you give us a flavour of why this might be a significant problem?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q How would a benevolent regime work? Do you have any ideas about how that could be done or how best it could be done?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Okay. You spoke about the Henry VIII powers in relation to social security. You have touched on them a little bit in terms of immigration. Is this just par for the course—a Government helping themselves to sweeping immigration powers—not that that makes it any better, or is this a pretty extreme example?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q As we heard earlier, immigration rules have been revised thousands of times in the last 10 years. The defence of how we do it appears to be that it allows the Government to respond quickly. Is that in any way an adequate defence? How can we marry up the need for scrutiny with the need to act quickly at times?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q I will just pick up on what you said a little earlier about mobility routes in some of the free trade negotiations that are going on. Can you just expand a little on what you understand is being negotiated in some of those agreements and on what those mobility arrangements might look like?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Ms Sankey, may I turn to you? You have spoken already about how rules around detention will apply to people impacted by the Bill. May I ask you about deportation powers, which became topical a couple of months back, with flights to Jamaica in particular being a source of controversy? How will the Bill impact deportation powers in relation to EU nationals, and what would you like to see changed about it?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
No.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q We have heard already that we need better law, and obviously this will be an opportunity to have better law. It is interesting to note that when the Home Office director general of immigration enforcement left his post and went public in January, he made the point that our immigration system largely fails to deal with those who are here illegally, and he pointed out that over 75% of judicial review applications made to the administrative court were for asylum and immigration matters. According to the most recent figures that he could get, only 54 of the 8,649 applications actually succeeded.
If, at the moment, the law is being used to actually frustrate the legal process of removing people who have no right to be in the UK, do we need to improve the law to make that work better? I am sure you would agree that it is not unreasonable to expect people who have committed serious criminal offences and have no right to be in the UK to be removed under the law of the land.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Thank you. Bella, do you want to comment on that one?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Do you not agree, though, that the current EU regime that we operate in is actually very discriminatory against black people, given that the majority of people in the European Union are white people? We are going to extend the same rights to people from African countries, India, Pakistan and the developing world. At the moment, do you not agree that it is a very discriminatory system, giving rights to people from EU countries, or EEA countries, that are not extended in the same way to those from other countries, where predominantly people may have different coloured skin?
Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North)
I wanted to ask about the advice and assistance that is available to people who want to apply Q under the EU settled status scheme, and in particular the fact that there is not a right of appeal in the Bill. Does that offend against the rules of natural justice when decisions are taken? Also, would the two witnesses like to comment on the recommendation from the Home Affairs Committee to have a declaratory system for granting settled status? Might that help to head off some of the problems that we have been identifying this afternoon?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Order. I know it is unnatural, but you have to face us, or the microphones will not pick you up.
Gary Sambrook (Conservative, Birmingham, Northfield)
Mr Berry, I sense your displeasure with clause 4, but earlier, in answer to Mr McDonald’s question, the FSB said that it was actually very happy with it, because it allows a degree of flexibility and allows the Government to respond to workforce demands and so on. Do you not think that business has a point, that flexibility should be built into the system?Q
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q May I return, Mr Berry, to what you were saying earlier about the draft free trade agreement that the UK published in February and the associated social security co-ordination arrangements? What exactly is it that the UK is proposing to cover in those arrangements, which presumably would potentially be introduced using the provisions of clause 5 in this Bill? What is not being covered?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q In relation to disabled people in particular, is it your view that it would be directly discriminatory to people to treat them in that way?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q May I ask you about schedule 1, paragraph 6, which appears to be quite a wide provision that allows Ministers to make changes to what can be covered by free movement arrangements? It appears to be widely drawn and, as I read it, could allow for changes, for example in relation to the treatment of asylum seekers or people who have been trafficked to the UK. Is that your reading of it? In any discussion that you have had, do you think that would have been the Government’s intention in the Bill?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you for coming this afternoon. We are very grateful.
Examination of Witness
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Good afternoon, Mr Piper. I am Edward Leigh, Chair of this Public Bill Committee. The Minister and the Opposition spokesman will ask questions. We have only 15 minutes. Minister, would you like to begin?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q As you appreciate, Mr Piper, the Bill ends the provisions for freedom of movement in UK law, but we have the European settlement scheme set up to protect the rights of those covered by the withdrawal agreement. Given that we have had 3.5 million applications and 3.2 million decisions, how do you think the process is going?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Just to be clear, I used the figure of 3.2 million in terms of decisions as well as the figure for applications. Coming on to the social security co-ordination parts of the Bill, do you have any thoughts on those? Are you concerned about the Government perhaps not being able to promptly implement any agreement that we might be able to reach with the European Union on those areas?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Luke, your organisation and a number of your members have been clear that you would like some sort of physical proof of pre-settled or settled status. Can you explain to the Committee why that isQ ?
Holly Lynch (Labour, Halifax)
Q Thank you. Your organisation asks for clarity about what people’s status and rights will be between the end of the transition period and the closing of the settlement scheme at the end of June. What are your members’ anxieties about that period?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Mr Piper, we have heard from the Home Office on the number of applications. We, like you, congratulate the Home Office on achieving significant reach. The problem, of course, is the number of people who will not apply in time. Are you able to give the Committee any indication of the scale of that problem, and who can we expect to be in that number?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Exactly.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Coming back to the scale of the problem, looking at international, or even UK, examples of where Governments have tried to encourage citizens to sign up for a scheme, how close to 100% do they tend to get? Do you have any idea?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q That is a huge problem, in terms of scale and the nature of the rights that those people would lose. One proposal that has been rejected in previous debates is a declaratory system. Are there other options to try to protect as many of these people as possible?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q So your first choice to resolve these issues is a declaratory system. In response to that, the Government tend to argue—if I understand them correctly—that making the system declaratory will mean that people will not apply for proof of status, and that will leave them exposed to the hostile environment and so on. What do you make of that argument?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Finally, do you have any concerns about the number of people who appear to be getting pre-settled status, as opposed to settled status, and the implications that that has for them?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Yes.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Does that have implications for people’s rights—for example, to social security—in the meantime?
Rob Roberts (Conservative, Delyn)
You mentioned that you are worried about people missing the deadline. The scheme opened on 21 January 2019, and the deadline is 30 June next year—nearly two and a half years after that. How far away do you think that deadline needs to be, if two and a half years is not long enough? Is three and a half, five or 10 years preferable? As I recall, there have been advertisements in the national media—in the press and on TV—explaining how to go about obtaining settled status. What would happen before your extended deadline that would make people any more able to hit the deadlineQ ?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I think that concludes our evidence. Thank you for joining us online.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I take it that we have on the line Lucy Leon, immigration policy and practice adviser for The Children’s Society. Minister, you have a question.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q In your briefing, you suggest two amendments to the Bill related to granting an automatic status. How do you suggest that a child, who may need to rely on a status in some decades’ time, would be able to evidence the status that had automatically been created?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
You talked about automatic status—granting something under a piece of legislation to someone. Under your suggested system, how, in decades to come, would an adult evidence the status that they were granted as a child?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Yes. If they had to evidence their status many years later, how would they do it? How would they be able to define their status, as against someone who arrived in March 2021, for the sake of argument, and was not entitled to that status?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q To be clear, your suggestion is that these children should go through the European settlement scheme to get the evidence they need, and in essence, your point is about how local authorities apply.