Domestic Abuse Bill

Public Bill Committee, 9 June 2020.

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

Good morning, everybody. I have a few preliminary points. Remember to switch your electronic devices to silent mode. Stimulants, with specific reference to tea and coffee, are not allowed.

Obviously, the important thing today in Committee is social distancing. The main body of the Committee Room has capacity for a maximum of 15 Members. If more than 15 Members are present, two will need to sit in the Public Gallery, but if they catch my eye during the sitting, they will obviously be able to participate. I will have to suspend the sitting if I think anyone is breaching the social distancing guidelines.

Definition of “domestic abuse”

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I beg to move amendment 50, in clause 1, page 2, line 7, at end insert—

“(5A) For the purposes of this Act, people affected by domestic abuse may include any child (such as a child in relation to whom A or B has a parental relationship) who sees, hears or is otherwise exposed to domestic abuse within the meaning of this section.”

An amendment so children are recognised within the statutory definition of domestic abuse.

Thank you, Madam Chairman—that always sounds ridiculous, so I will say Madam Chair. I will start as I mean to go on, with a feminist flourish. The aim of the amendment is to ensure that children who see, hear or are otherwise affected by domestic abuse—in other words, who themselves experience the domestic abuse—perpetrated by one person aged 16 or over against another, are recognised in the proposed statutory definition of domestic abuse.

We will come later to the debate about the statutory definition and the importance of having a statutory definition. It is almost unbelievable to somebody who has worked in the field for so long that one does not exist. I think people on the street would think that one did. I will not talk more broadly about the definition now, but merely about the amendment with regard to children.

What are the reasons for the amendment? Why is it important? Analysis from the Children’s Commissioner suggests that 831,000 children in England live in households that report domestic abuse. On average, 692 child-in-need assessments—I presume that that is the figure for before covid-19—are carried out every single day that highlight domestic abuse as a feature of a child’s or a young person’s life. Having worked in the field, I know that that is an enormous under-reporting, but, still, the figure is 692 children every single day.

The Women’s Aid annual survey reported that, in 2018-19, 13,787 children used refuge services, compared with 11,489 women, so there are more children accessing our refuge services. When I worked in Refuge, there was always a board that said, “Flat 1, flat 2, flat 3, flat 4, flat 5”, and it was always, “Woman plus three” or “Woman plus four”—that was the number of children she had with her in the refuge accommodation. There were always more children than women in Refuge.

According to the Women’s Aid study, 187,403 children used community-based services, compared with 156,169 women. I want to explain that a little bit, because the headline figure of 187,403 does not mean that, in a single year, those children necessarily received any direct support as a result of their domestic abuse. I worked for a Women’s Aid in community services. That is where the vast majority of victims of all kind are seen; it far outstrips refuge accommodation. The reality is that you would sit with a form in front of you and often with a woman in front of you who was telling you of the horror she was facing at home, where she was still living or interacting with the perpetrator, because of the family courts or for a variety of other reasons, and you would know, and would have recorded on your system, the number of children in her household, but you might never lay eyes on those children—you might never see them. They would never necessarily come into community services. My organisation dealt with 8,000 to 9,000 community cases a year. Had we had the associated children in, it would have been like running 10 inner-city schools in the west midlands. Although that number of children are recorded in community services, it does not necessarily mean that they are accessing support.

The consequences of these childhood experiences are well known, ranging from brain development being negatively affected and cognitive and sensory growth being impacted, through to people developing personality and behavioural problems, depression and suicidal tendencies. Children who experience domestic violence from the age of three onwards reported 30% higher than average antisocial behaviours at the age of 14.

There is not really any crime type that we debate in this building that we could not link back in some way to adverse childhood experiences, whether we are talking about the link between domestic violence perpetration and terrorism, about the adverse childhood experiences that lead to grooming and sexual exploitation, about knife crime or about county lines exploitation. In every single one of these crime types, if we were to look back at adverse childhood experiences, it would not be too long before we saw a pattern of domestic abuse. It is haunting how much domestic abuse affects many of the issues that the Home Office deals with.

The children who have suffered report 13% higher than average conduct problems, such as fighting with their peers. The Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill highlighted concerns that if children’s status as victims of domestic abuse that occurs in their household—rather than that which occurs to them as individuals in their own relationships or directly at the hands of the perpetrator in their home—was not recognised, the Bill could have a negative impact on the level and quality of specialist support available to children.

The provision of services for child victims of domestic abuse is already disjointed. Studies have shown that support for children is often a bolt-on to existing domestic abuse services and that many children do not receive any specialist support following their experiences of domestic abuse and violence.

Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, I think it is important to say that my in-depth knowledge of the domestic abuse services in Birmingham is probably a little bit better than that of the average Member of Parliament. I have worked in most of those services; I know where the services are. When I need a refuge bed, I rarely go through a referral line—my next-door neighbour but one is the place where I would go—and I have the phone numbers of the people I need to talk to at any given moment. If a child came into my constituency office and was facing domestic abuse at home, or came in with their mother and their mother was begging for direct support for that child, I would not know where to send that child for certainty of service.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

What my hon. Friend describes is a set of services that works within the rules. I believe she is saying that guidance and codes go so far, but we really need legislation. Does she agree that the very existence of this good Bill, which we need, proves that statutory definitions make a difference and that that, fundamentally, is why we need their extension to children?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I absolutely agree. Throughout the day, no doubt, we will be told, as we were on Second Reading, and as we will be on Report, that, even though I am a sometime opponent of some things in the Bill—actually, I am not an opponent of anything in the Bill; I am an opponent of what I fear is missing from it—the definition is important and ground-breaking. We will be told that it is finally the leap pad that we can all use to do some things we have all so deeply wanted to do, but we have to make sure that we do that for the nation’s children and that they are on the face of the Bill.

I was talking about what I saw in services and saying that I would not necessarily be able to find somewhere for a child. In a case in my constituency, a woman’s husband was convicted in the Crown court of domestic abuse towards her. Her child is now going through the family courts. That is a story we will hear again and again throughout the passage of the Bill. The child’s school identified a need for extra support and had access to some educational psychology resources that could be put in place at the school. The school had to get permission from both parents. The father refused to allow the child access to the support. Those involved at the school, which is not huge administratively—primary schools in Birmingham, Yardley do not have big teams of policy people and people making decisions—felt anxious, nervous and unprotected about what to do, so they allowed the father to make that decision. There are all sorts of reasons why we need legislative change to provide explicitly that public bodies have a duty in that area. That is just one example.

When I worked in Refuge accommodation, I saw a decline in the number of family support workers. When I arrived, we had two children’s rooms in the main refuge, which had 18 flats for families to live in. There were communal spaces and two family support units, and, more importantly, four family support workers. Their entire job was to work with children, and to work through their experiences with them, and also to work with mothers whose sense that they could tell their children what to do had often been removed by a perpetrator who had undermined them at every level, to the point where the children—certainly the older children in Refuge—became the parent. Those workers watch childhoods being lost, usually by older teenage girls. However, in some cases it is boys who become a parent to their younger siblings.

I have seen horrendous cases, including one where I had to help with and facilitate the removal of children from a family for their best interest, when a group of three siblings was separated so that the oldest was sent somewhere separate from the two younger ones. I have lots of siblings, and it felt as if separating that sibling group was the cruellest thing ever to have to do, but that older child would never have had a childhood had she been resettled with her younger siblings, because, at the age of eight, she had become their mother.

Even in the time I worked in Refuge accommodation, we closed the family rooms because there was no longer funding for specific family support work, which came through early intervention grants, either through Supporting People funding or the local authority. The rooms that had been filled with big murals of Disney characters and the play schemes that offered places in summer—I remember we used to do this brilliant den-building thing, because of the idea that kids would like to build a space they felt safe in—started to disappear from refuges across the land. The onus on, and ability of, organisations to work directly with children has been limited.

If we were truly representative and I asked Members to survey all their constituents who had suffered domestic abuse about what single thing every victim wanted to see, there would be a variety of answers. However, I guarantee that a huge percentage would say, “I just want some support for my kids. I just want someone to talk to my kids. My kids have nowhere to go.” That is what victims of domestic violence say again and again at coffee mornings, at refuge support groups and at every refuge’s weekly house meeting. People are saying, week in and week out, “I just want something for my kids.”

Do not just take my word for it. Research conducted by the University of Stirling has shown the following: in two thirds of local authorities questioned, children faced barriers to accessing support in cases of domestic abuse. Over 10% of those local authorities had no specialist support for children who were victims of domestic abuse. In one third of local authorities questioned, children’s access to services was restricted by postcode.

I see the hon. Member for Dudley South in the room; I used to work at Black Country Women’s Aid and offer services across the great borough of Dudley. We had a rape crisis service that offered services to adults and children who were victims in Sandwell, but we offered other services in Dudley—around domestic abuse, for example. Rape victims and children who had been sexually abused or sexually assaulted would ring our services, and if they lived in Dudley, we would have to say to them, “I’m sorry, that service is for Sandwell kids. We cannot come into a school in Dudley.” I hasten to add that that is not the case now, I am pleased to say.

I am covered by parliamentary privilege, so I can say that I sometimes used to fake an address in Sandwell. I used to think, “The crime data for this one house is going to go through the roof. This is going to be some horrible hothouse of abuse where every person in Dudley who has ever been abused lives.” There is nothing worse than working for a service and telling people that they cannot access it. The people who live in Sandwell and Dudley definitely know the difference between the two, and it would be a grave insult to accuse someone who is from one area of being from the other; that would be like saying I am from Manchester. Nevertheless, the idea that people in the west midlands understand lines drawn on a local government map in 1974 when their children need support is frankly laughable.

Funding for children’s services fell by £3 billion between 2010 and 2018, and children’s services in two thirds of local authorities questioned are reliant on time-limited funding. It is important to stress the issue of time-limited funding: if I had superpowers beyond those I will ever have, I would scrap 31 March from every calendar in the world. People who work in the voluntary sector are aware that when a child comes in to start 10 sessions of support over a financial year, they might not know until well into April whether they will still have the funding to carry on supporting that child. The voluntary sector currently lives hand to mouth; that is not a criticism of this Government, but a criticism of literally every Government. The way we manage funding for those dealing with people whose lives are completely and utterly chaotic is a travesty.

In addition, 60% of local authorities that responded to the recent Women’s Aid survey have had to reduce or cancel children’s services as a result of covid-19. Cross-national comparative research has shown that when children are recognised as direct victims, they are more likely to be spoken to and have their perspective taken into account.

This is particularly important when the joint targeted area inspection report identified that in children’s social care, health professionals, the police and probation there were instances where children were not listened to or considered. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has also found that the police often do not provide children with any explanation or information, or get their perspective on domestic abuse incidents and they are not listened to. This is a really important point.

I am a victim of crime. There is a court case tomorrow, which I cannot go to because I will be here. Someone else will read out my victim impact statement. When the police come to talk to me about that, I am given a form to tick that they have offered me a victim’s personal statement. Those who are responsible for victims in the Ministry of Justice will be pleased to hear that I ticked the little form. It asks whether it has been explained to me that there are services available to me, whether I mind my information being passed over to victims agencies that might be able to support me and whether I understand what might happen with court. That was all explained to me.

I do not even need to take an extreme example, but if a child has just watched one of their parents punch the other in the face repeatedly, and the police are called because the neighbours hear, in those circumstances what will largely happen—it is patchy, don’t get me wrong—is that the police will do a much better job than they did 10 years ago with that victim of crime. There is no doubt about it. That victim of crime will get the form that I got. She will probably get a much more advanced service, because of the specialist agencies that she would probably be referred to. But they may never see the child who was in that house. No little leaflet is given to them to ask if they are okay.

I recognise the instigation of Operation Encompass, although it is early days. I must say, when I worked in domestic violence services, we called Operation Encompass the “392 form” and every school received a form if there had been a domestic violence incident in a child’s home. I must say, by and large, they were filed.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I refer to my own experience when I was a councillor responsible for local education. I remember—this varies between local authorities—how effective it was that looked-after children were the responsibility of the local authority and the schools were held to account for their educational performance. Obviously, this must be handled sensitively, but we know that children and their educational outcomes suffer in these circumstances, so making this more consistent must be beneficial.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I absolutely agree; there needs to be a consistent thread. I suppose the Government would lean on the idea of Ofsted’s safeguarding principles with regard to all schools, regardless of whatever jurisdiction they sit under. However, if we looked at any of the inquiries into sexual violence or harassment in schools, which have been done by what feels like every Select Committee over the past five years, we would see there is a real disconnect between the safeguarding that Ofsted is able to identify and incidents where, for example, peer-on-peer sexual violence in a school is handled appallingly. I cannot help but think there needs to be a far more consistent approach.

What is more, for example with Operation Encompass, a proper monitoring review and action plan needs to come out of any review. A former chief constable of Dorset Police wrote to me. He now runs an organisation that goes into schools and works with Operation Encompass. He told me that during a recent webinar with 150 school safeguarding leads, he ran an online poll, to ask who was aware of Operation Encompass: 35% said yes, they were aware; 49% said no, they were not; 9% said that they were not sure; and 7% said yes, but that they were not receiving any calls about children in such circumstances. I can only hope that they have very lucky children in their school without any incidences at home, although I find that vanishingly hard to believe.

When we talk about the voice of the child, nowhere in the debate that we will have over the next 10 days will we hear what I can only describe as a primal cry about hearing the voice of the child, including when we discuss the family courts. If I wanted to filibuster all day, I could read from the special folder in my inbox, which contains hundreds if not thousands of emails from children and adult victims who have been through the family courts, talking about how the children were ignored. There is a deep and meaningful reason why the voice of the child has to be put on the face of the Bill. Later, when we discuss the family courts, what we hear will put us all beyond any doubt that rarely are children asked what is happening at home by anyone, even when services are instigated.

Including children in the definition of domestic abuse would also mean that public authorities and frontline practitioners, including CAFCASS—the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service—and the police, will be encouraged to recognise and respond to children experiencing domestic abuse. Local authorities and their partners would recognise the importance of ensuring that child victims have access to support for their needs. That is deeply important.

I do not underestimate how stretched local authorities are. In most circumstances, they are trying to do the very best that they can. I used to say that I wished that the victims of domestic abuse were as important as the bins—there is a statutory duty to collect the bins—but now they will be. We have made it to the heady level of domestic abuse victims being as important as bins! I now wish to see children in every local authority reach that heady status. I do not underestimate the importance of bins, though. I am from Birmingham, where we have bin strikes all the time, so I cannot tell you how important I think that the collection of bins is—I do not wish to present otherwise to the Committee.

The report of the Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill echoed much of what I am saying, stating:

“We recommend the Bill be amended so the status of children as victims of domestic abuse that occurs in their household is recognised and welcome the assurance from the Home Office Minister that the Government seeks to include the harm caused to children in abusive households in the definition”—

we would welcome that.

The Minister sent a letter following Second Reading this time—the Joint Committee report is actually a piece of scrutiny work done on a previous Bill. The Bill we are considering is a different one but, in shorthand, let us all assume that we are talking about the same Bill for now. In the letter, the Minister stated:

“It is vital that we support children who are affected by domestic abuse, and the Bill expressly recognises that in the statutory functions of the domestic abuse commissioner. One of the key functions of the commissioner will be to encourage good practice in the identification of children affected by domestic abuse and the provision of protection and support.”

I want to know what “encourage” means—the domestic abuse commissioner will “encourage”.

The domestic abuse commissioner, in her evidence to us on Monday, very much encouraged the idea that more support is needed for the victims of domestic violence who are children. She told a clear story about how shocking one particular service that seemed to be doing it well was to her—that she had never seen such a service. What powers will the powers of encouragement have? Will the Minister explain in her remarks how the commissioner will encourage that? The Government have not been encouraged to include children. The commissioner—regardless of her title—has no budget to commission children’s services in the country, and she has no power to demand that a local authority does it.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

My hon. Friend makes an important point in focusing on the attention that encouragement is given in the current system. Can she give some examples, from her own experience, of all the other areas where services are encouraged to do something, but that does not actually happen?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

rose—

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

In replying, I am sure the hon. Member will remain within the terms of the Bill Committee.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I will remain within the terms by saying that we, as members of the Committee, received evidence yesterday from the Children’s Commissioner. She is encouraging us to look at this amendment and to pass it. I do not think anyone in this room doubts that the Children’s Commissioner has been trying to encourage that to happen, and it has not happened. That encouragement is just one good example of how the role of a commissioner, which will we talk about later, is deeply important. It must mean something more than just encouraging. I do not know why the Government would not want to be encouraged to include children.

The Minister’s letter goes on to say:

“In addition, clause 66 of the Bill places a duty on the Home Secretary to issue guidance on the effect of domestic abuse on children. Alongside the Bill, we announced on the day of Second Reading that the Home Office had awarded £3.1 million to specialist services for children who have both been directly and indirectly affected by domestic abuse.”

The organisation I worked for was one of those that received some of that money, for work in the area represented by the hon. Member for Dudley South; no one would argue with that. However, as will be said many times in the Committee, saying that advice will be issued in the guidance is all well and good. We want to see incredibly robust guidance. I spent the weekend reading the guidance on human trafficking, which nobody would want to see on the face of the Bill because it is long, in-depth, ridiculously detailed and targets specific agencies with specific nuance. That is what good guidance should do.

I understand that kicking the issue of children to the Commissioner and the guidance might make it feel as if the issue is forgotten. I do not think that Members opposite—certainly the Minister—do not want to see the very best for every child in our country. I absolutely think that the Minister wants that—it would be horrific to think otherwise—but the suggestion is that it does not need to be on the face of the Bill but will play its role in the guidance, which we have not yet seen. This is not a new Bill. The Domestic Abuse Bill is like an old lady of the House. The joint Committee compelled the previous Bill—this Bill’s sister—to publish the guidance before we even reached Second Reading. Why, if we are so confident that the issue of children can be dealt with in the guidance, can we not see that guidance? Why cannot this body of Parliament scrutinise the guidance before we agree that children will be perfectly well catered for? That guidance might allay my fears. I would probably still want to see it on the face of the Bill because I am a person who likes to use the law to get what I want, but maybe the guidance would allay my fear. Perhaps the Committee could be allowed to see a draft of the guidance during its discussions? I will not press it to a Division as I am sure all Members would agree.

Of the £3.1 million that was announced, which was of course welcomed, not a single penny would enable me to place anyone in Birmingham into the service. The hon. Member for Dudley South and people in his area are in a lucky position. Maybe we now need a Dudley house for Birmingham children to go to—it is not far, I will drive them and we will go to the Black Country Living Museum on the way. Most people in this room, let alone most Members of Parliament, would not have got any of that £3.1 million for any child in their area. They would not be able to access that service. Once again, we are back to postcodes and houses with ridiculous crime reports.

I am not sure why there is a resistance to include children in the Bill. I have concerns about how all issues that are too difficult to deal with are pushed on to the commissioner in statutory guidance. The Bill has been going through the Commons for so long that it is not unreasonable to expect to have seen the guidance.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

My hon. Friend and I both have a lot of experience working in the voluntary sector, admittedly in very different parts. We both know that, if we had three charities in a room and asked them a question, we would get three different answers, but on this issue, is she aware of any charitable or campaigning organisation that supports children and opposes including children in the definition in the Bill?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I am not. Often, the two issues that the children’s sector mainly campaigns for in this regard become conflated. One is the issue of teenage relationship abuse and the age limit of 16, at which the definition that we are discussing currently sits. There is some divergence of opinion about whether the way to include children in the Bill is to remove age limits. For very obvious reasons, there are concerns about that. As somebody who has represented and worked with child victims in the past, I would not wish to see them criminalised—that is one issue. On the issue of whether a child should receive in the definition the status of victim rather than witness of domestic abuse, I have heard no divergence—my hon. Friend is absolutely right.

As somebody who worked in the women’s sector, I have to say that if the Government want to take some real credit for what they have done for the domestic violence sector, the greatest thing that they have done— I do not mean this in a glib way— is to genuinely unite charities, which now work in a way that was certainly not always the case when I worked in the field. On this matter, they are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

As always, I want to give voice to some of those who have suffered in childhood. Charlie Webster, the Sky Sports presenter, who sits on the victims’ board at the Ministry of Justice to advise the Government, has expressed real frustration that there seems to be little to no movement on this issue. She has talked about her experience of living with domestic abuse as a child. She said:

“Home is supposed to be your safe, loving space. As soon as I walked in the door from school I wouldn’t know where to put my feet in case I made a noise. I would chew quietly and make sure my teeth wouldn’t touch my knife and fork, not making any noise, trying to keep the peace to protect my mum. Anything would make him angry, even the sound of me eating. Hearing that, he would smash the table with his fists near your face. I was constantly on edge.”

Charlie admits that growing up feeling worthless and unloved has affected her adult relationships. Lasting effects include an inability to accept praise. Charlie said:

“I was traumatised and had a lot of nightmares. If I got close to somebody, it would trigger a feeling of a lack of safety and stability.”

She said that her situation was a factor in her being sexually abused by her former running coach in her teens, and added that,

“People like that coach are predators who prey on vulnerable people for the power. It was easy to have power over me.”

I wish I could say that Charlie’s case was an unusual one in which domestic abuse in childhood had not laid in step the trap of both domestic abuse and sexual violence and exploitation in adulthood.

Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

I would like to say that Charlie Webster is a good friend of mine. I have lived through her testimony and it is harrowing, to say the very least. There are many reasons why she was let down by local authorities and by the police. To go back to what you were saying, Jess, as the children’s services lead for a London borough, I have seen at first hand that the trauma of domestic abuse runs through all families and all relationships.

I would like to ask what you think the Domestic Abuse Bill will achieve by adding that definition of children, compared with what the definition does in the Children Act, where children are protected. Also, from the point of view of CAFCASS, there is the importance of family courts and of listening to children. I have sat on the board of CAFCASS and know that they have a huge part to play.

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

Order. I remind Members that interventions need to be short. Also, may I make a gentle reminder that the speaker is addressing the Chair, and therefore not referring to other Members by their first name?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

On that point, this is the first time for lots of us, doing a lot of things. We are all learning: I will inevitably get some of the procedure wrong— I almost always do. I have learned to live with that fact, and wear it almost as a weapon. I totally agree with the hon. Member about the effect that domestic abuse has. However, if the Children Act currently does that job, why is it not happening? The Children Act is currently failing. When you intersect—as the language has it these days—the Children Act with domestic violence, from my own experience there is starting to be a breakdown in understanding. I would argue that that has been brought about by the austerity faced by local authorities, although I have no evidence to back that up.

Usually, the main point of intersection between the Children Act and domestic abuse services is section 17 of the Children Act 1989. Section 17 is my favourite piece of legislation that was ever written. It is as though I keep it in a drawer and can just pull it out. Section 17 of the Children Act means that if a woman is destitute with her children, the local authority has a duty and power to house that child. Although I represented an area in the Black Country that was incredibly parochial, domestic violence services are national schemes. In cases of domestic abuse, we very often get the response from a local authority area—we take people from all over the country, and we disperse people out into different areas of the country. In fact, as part of the safeguarding approach, people are not allowed to stay in a refuge if they live within five miles of its location.

We would therefore be ringing round local authorities trying to rehouse people out of a refuge—or, in fact, rehouse people in our refuge, being paid for by that local authority. Any number of times, we would get “Computer says no” for x, y or z reason; but if the woman had a child, we knew that by the end of the day we would have bed space for her, because of section 17 of the Children Act. I have seen that eroded of late, because I have seen section 17 being used as a tool against victims of domestic violence to say, “We will rehouse your child, but you are going to have to go and sleep in your car, because we have a duty to the child, not to you as a family”.

So, while I love the Children Act, it is currently not doing this. From some of the evidence we heard from the victims, if you are multiply presenting, for whatever reason—in the instance of the evidence we were given, it was disability and domestic abuse—it is often the case that those who are specialist in one area are not specialist in the other. In domestic violence services, that person was being seen just as a disabled victim, and in disability services she was not being seen as a victim of domestic abuse. I am afraid that, with reliance on the Children Act and the agencies that necessarily come out of a local authority through the Children Act—namely, children’s social care—the situation was at the point where you would be able to access services only if you were near death; access is vanishingly rare, unless your threshold is certainly in Birmingham. I do not know why that is so, just because of the laws that exist to protect children: other laws exist to protect all people, if they are represented in the Bill. There is another law for everybody: why would we not include them?

I will often, because of the nature of this crime, lean towards talking about women. I cannot help but do it—it comes from the background I come from and the working organisation that I come from. However, I want to highlight the pain suffered by boys and young men who grow up with domestic abuse. I want to send a very clear message to my friends Rachel Williams, Jacky Mulveen and Mandy Thomas—three women who have dedicated their lives to campaigning for and supporting victims of domestic abuse, and all of whom have suffered the unimaginable loss of a death of a son because of domestic abuse. All talk about the strain that living with domestic abuse had on their sons and other children.

Rachel has talked many times about how the violence against her affected her children. Rachel’s ex-partner abused her for years. On 19 August 2011, Darren Williams walked into Carol-Ann’s Hair Salon, Rachel’s place of work in Newport, and attacked his wife of 18 years after she asked him for a divorce. Williams used a gun butt to smash Rachel in the head and fired two shots into her legs, which left her unable to walk until surgeons replaced her shattered bones with titanium. Six weeks later, her 16-year-old son Jack took his life. Rachel said:

“Children are not seen as victims of domestic abuse but as witnesses and that’s not the case. It’s about putting a strong message out that we need to do more in our society to stop this from happening.”

Rachel said her son was a “strong-willed boy” and she was “shocked and distraught at his death.” She added:

“He was a popular boy in school and was a bit of a Jack-the-lad but he was a loving boy. He was the first to put his shoes on and help me with the shopping from the car.”

Jacky Mulveen is a woman so very close to my heart. She runs local services in Birmingham that are utterly life-saving for victims of domestic abuse. Over many years, Jacky and I have spent time sitting on my living-room floor, late into the night, surrounded by papers for funding bids to keep her work going. A constant problem we face is the need for crèche facilities to care for children while their mothers get support. Even that, which is the most basic hat tip to the existence and needs of children whose families might need support, is almost never available. I cannot tell the Committee the number of times that I have had to pull a support service because we could not get a crèche or we could not afford it in the funding or the funding provider would not provide for childcare services. It is always hard to get funding for children’s support or to enable mothers to get support to help their children.

I am sure that the idea that there is currently support available for children living with domestic abuse would be met with the world’s greatest meme-worthy eye-roll from Jacky. Jacky is a manager, a support worker, a group leader, a fundraiser, a campaigner. Like so many women running local services, she has to do everything. I remember once I spent hours and hours erecting beds in refuge; I was one of the senior managers and my job that day was to put up the beds.

Jacky suffered years of horrific abuse at the hands of her ex-husband. She bears many scars, but none worse than the scar of losing her son, Karl, at the age of 17, after he suffered years of growing up in a household of tyranny. Karl lived just around the corner from me. He was born the same year as me and today I should be bumping into him in our local high street. Perhaps our kids would have been in the same school, even in the same class.

Jacky, Karl’s mother, wanted me to say the following: “21 years ago, my 17-year-old son died from inhaling butane gas, a way of dealing with the stresses of his childhood and the impact of growing up in a household of domestic abuse. Karl’s death was the catalyst to me leaving, so not only did he save my life, he also saved the lives of his brothers, who were then able to grow up in a household free from abuse, and also the lives of hundreds of children whose mothers our project has supported over the years.

I don’t want Karl to be an unspoken tragedy. His legacy is the work I do every day. I may not have been able to save my son, but I can use my knowledge and experience to support other mothers so that they can support their children and help them to heal. I want people to understand the devastating impact on children’s lives. Our children are dying, but their death certificates do not tell the full story. I also want people to understand that when you abuse a mother, you abuse the child, and when you support a mother, you are supporting the child. When we start to heal, we can then provide a foundation for our children’s healing. Leaving is a process and healing is a process and this process must not be missed out when commissioning services.”

Mandy Thomas and her son endured 18 years of abuse at the hands of her husband. Jahmene, her younger son, has bravely spoken of his childhood and his family’s years of violence at the hands of their father, confessing that he might have killed himself if his brother had not taken his own life first. Jahmene’s sibling Daniel tragically killed himself in 2008 when their abusive father was released from jail. Jahmene revealed that his sibling’s devastating death was the only thing preventing him from taking his own life.

The Committee heard from witnesses last week about children being abducted as a pattern of abuse, sometimes across borders, and we were told about the strain on siblings that comes from acting as parents to their younger brothers and sisters. A witness told us that the brothers had to constantly remind their little sister who their mother was, and that the duty had fallen on them to keep her alive in their minds. As I have said, I saw many instances in refuges where this was the case: little eight-year-olds going on 35-year-olds. We heard from victims who slept on the streets of London with their children, and about how section 17 of the Children Act—my favourite bit of that Act; let me reassure Members that at one time, that section was a gift to people like me—is now being used as a weapon to remove children from their mothers. We also heard during that evidence session about how a child was abused and controlled by her family because of her disability.

A number of things were missing from that evidence session, but I thought it was a particular shame that we did not hear from local police forces, or even the head of the police. If I were to go into Stechford police station in Yardley, which is the head of the response unit in my bit of Birmingham—once headed up by the brother of the then Home Secretary, which was always entertaining—and ask them about their ability to keep safe a victim of domestic violence who might have no recourse to public funds, like the cases we heard about in the evidence session, the police officers there would tell me that they had nowhere to go. They end up with children in police stations with mothers who have no recourse to public funds. Some of the evidence we heard was quite shocking: it is hard for the Committee to think of the police saying, “There is nothing we can do.”

This is not necessarily a criticism of the police. They regularly tell me, “We put them in a hotel for one night, but what are we meant to do? How are we meant to protect them?” It almost always comes down to the police having to report to children’s services those children who turn up with their mothers in a desperate situation. That does not breed a good relationship between that victim and the police, but who can blame the police officers for doing their job and their duty, which is to protect and serve those vulnerable children in that circumstance? The police want a solution that allows them to say to the victim in front of them, “You are a victim and nothing else, and I know somewhere I can send you tonight where you can be supported.” If anything, it is us here—the policy makers—who are stopping them doing that. The police face child victims very often, with little they can do to help them. It is undeniable that there is an effect on children from growing up with domestic abuse. No one in this Room would deny it. However, it seems that in the Bill and our response to the issue when the Joint Committee raised it, we are fooling ourselves about what support currently exists.

The Minister said to the Joint Committee:

“In the wider context of abusive behaviour, if a victim is under the age of 16, that will be deemed to be child abuse, with all of the extra support in terms of social services.”

To give the Minister credit, she was talking about the age difference, which is not what we are talking about now; but the point stands that the idea that child victims of domestic abuse are receiving support from social services, as we heard from the domestic abuse commissioner and a number, if not all, of the witnesses—especially the representative of Hestia— is simply not the case.

Most abused parents are too terrified to involve social services, for a start. They have been told by the perpetrators again and again, “If you come forward, they are going to take the kids away,” and—do you know what?—the perpetrator is right. The system still puts the onus very much on mothers, in their failure to protect their children from the abuse they suffer themselves. If I had a penny for every woman who has been sent on a freedom programme as part of a child-in-need service, child-in need notice or child protection order, and who was told that it was her fault that she was being abused, I would be able to fund services for children in the United Kingdom. Perhaps that is the way to get round this.

Also, the threshold for action means that it would be vanishingly unlikely that even a tiny fraction of victims could get any kind of support from children’s social care. Some councils—no doubt about it—do absolutely brilliant things and invest in early intervention and work with children’s centres for children up to five. There are many instances up and down the country, but it is not consistent. The only consistency in the experience of child victims across the nations and regions is that it is not very easy to get support. It is certainly not necessarily easy to get specialist support.

However, it does not have to be like that. Support for child victims, where it is available, can be life-changing. Carrie was supported by Action for Children’s specialist counselling service after experiencing domestic abuse between her parents, who are now separated. Carrie was present when her father was abusive towards her mother and was directly affected by her father’s coercive and controlling behaviour. Carrie has, and wanted, contact with her father, but she was struggling to make sense of her feelings. Her mum said that Carrie was

“crying a lot, both wanting to see Dad and then crying to come home”.

It was felt that independent counselling would help Carrie to understand her emotions and manage how she was feeling. She was offered 10 counselling sessions. They were delivered at her school so that she could explore her emotions in a familiar and trusted environment. Her counsellor used creative interventions like games and therapeutic play, which always helps children to express themselves more freely and develop decision-making and problem-solving skills. Through those interventions, Carrie and her counsellor explored her fears and anxieties, and her relationships at home and at school. Things started to get better. She started gradually to become more able to work in the here and now, communicating her feelings with greater insight and confidence. By the end of the counselling sessions, Carrie had an improved sense of what is and is not within her control, and understood better the characteristics of good and challenging relationships, and the importance of asking for help when needed.

The need to include children not just in the guidance but in the Bill, as in the amendment, was mentioned by Members across the House on Second Reading of this Bill and the old Bill—the old bill? Yesterday I said to my husband, “I’ve got to go and speak to Anna about the Bill,” and he thought I meant the TV programme. That is how deeply politically rooted my husband is—he thinks I am talking about Tosh from 1987.

Undeniably, this Bill and this amendment have the ear of the House, and I have no doubt that that will be the case on Report. Also, I am very noisy but nowhere near as noisy as the parents who have lost their children to this abuse. If every single domestic abuse victim in the country were to write to their Member of Parliament to tell the story of how their children had been affected or, as the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher) did so beautifully on Second Reading, tell their own experience of growing up with domestic abuse, our casework teams would not be able to cope, and I can guarantee that every Member of Parliament would struggle to know where to refer. In every one of our constituencies, thousands of untold stories exist about scared, demoralised and abused children. The Bill in its current form does not reflect that.

The Children’s Commissioner submitted evidence to this Committee yesterday. I will read out just a small section of what she said:

“We believe it is essential that children are identified as victims in their own right, in order to ensure that they are not treated by services simply as ‘witnesses’ who may not have been affected themselves.

This not only plays out in the support given to children, but in child contact arrangements, as the impact of a perpetrator’s abuse of a parent on their child is often under-acknowledged.”

Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West)

I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution. Does she, like me, believe that if we do what is proposed, we will have a completely different concept of what domestic abuse is and we will begin to tackle it in a way that prevents it from happening in the first place, because—as she so eloquently said—we see children become abusers and abused and the key to tackling it properly, although we will never wipe it out, is including children not only in the definition but in the care and the approach that we take?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I absolutely agree. If we are going to write a ground-breaking Bill, let us make it break ground. If we do not genuinely think, as a Committee and as a House, that it is worth putting children in, “because what difference will that make?”, what is the point in any of it? That is the question I would ask. What is the point in having a definition at all if we do not see the reality of domestic abuse?

As I have said, in moving this amendment, I absolutely feel that I have the ear of the whole House, so I feel that, on Report, there will be huge support. Across this House, no matter the colour of our rosettes, people have spoken up for children in our debates. That sends an immense message that we might not realise; and we have a chance, with this amendment, to send the same message again.

Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)

Regarding the amendment, I want to hear the debate develop and I trust that my hon. Friend the Minister is listening.

In many ways, children are long-term “silent victims” of domestic abuse. The Public Health Wales adverse childhood experiences research found that 16% of adults in Wales grew up in a house with domestic violence. The definition of domestic violence used in the past obviously does not extend to domestic abuse as defined in the scope of the Bill. Indeed, children’s social care assessments for children in need in England show that more than half—51%—of relevant assessments last year cited domestic abuse as a factor. Given those figures, it is likely that many in this room will have witnessed or suffered from some form of domestic abuse in their childhoods.

My constituency of Ynys Môn has one of the highest percentages of looked-after children in rural Wales, many of whom will have experienced domestic abuse in their very short lives. This matter is therefore close to my heart.

Organisations such as Action for Children see the devastating impact of domestic abuse on children and young adults. That often continues into adulthood, resulting in personality and behaviour disorders, depression and suicidal tendencies. It is critical for the long-term health of our country and our people that we recognise the very real impact of domestic abuse in all its forms on all our children.

Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate on amendment 50, which would include children in the definition.

My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley set out very fully the framework and the background to the need for this amendment to be made to include children in the statutory definition of the abuse. Why? We speak calmly about children observing—a very calm word here—domestic violence. What that means is that children experience violence—violent behaviour, abusive behaviour, shouting, fear and dread. They are not just observers but victims, affected emotionally and physically by that abuse. They feel the violence and danger. None of us in this room, I think, would disagree with that.

Why should we amend the definition to include children? Because they need to be recognised formally as victims in order to be sure that they can access the support and services that they will really need at the time they need them. Their needs would therefore be addressed specifically when dealing with domestic abuse. That needs to be set out in law, so that they have that beyond any doubt.

On Thursday, in the evidence sessions, we heard about the substantial support for the inclusion children in the definition of domestic abuse. We heard from the domestic abuse commissioner and the Victims’ Commissioner, both of whom gave evidence and believe that it is hugely important to include children.

Last Friday, the Minister kindly met me virtually, along with the children’s charities Action for Children, the NSPCC and the Children’s Society. We specifically discussed including children in the definition. We talked about the age 16 limit, which appears in an earlier subsection. The charities told the Minister that they and the wider sector were agreed in their wish not to change the reference in the Bill to age 16, but rather to support this amendment to include a wider description of children.

Yesterday, I was pleased to see, circulated by the Clerk, evidence submitted by the sector on the age 16 issue—DAB 44—including the people we heard from last Thursday, such as the Women’s Aid Federation and other organisations. No one wants to see children criminalised as a result of relationships between each other, and it is really helpful that yesterday that statement was circulated making the sector’s unequivocal support for the amendment absolutely clear.

I have talked to constituents about this issue, and to some excellent local organisations in the north-east, such as Children North East, which provides support for children affected by domestic abuse. They tell me about the difficulty of ensuring that they have funding and commissioned services for children. They are doing a great job, but there is so much more that we need to do to ensure that children have support when they are victims of domestic abuse.

In the Westminster Hall debate that I was fortunate to secure earlier this year, I spoke about my constituent Christine, who had been a victim of domestic abuse. She has come through that and now wants to change things. She talked to me about the need for children to be properly supported.

Christine’s daughter, who is now an adult, is still dealing with the trauma of the domestic abuse suffered by Christine and living in the home where that took place. Her daughter contacted me after the Westminster Hall debate—she sent a very nice card—to say how much she appreciated the fact that finally people were taking notice of the needs of children and recognising them as victims in their own right. She was so pleased that there might be a glimmer of hope that things might improve for children.

Again, why should this be in the definition rather than the guidance? Inevitably, people looking at what service they need to provide, especially in times of financial constraint, will ask, “What does the law require us to do?”. That is why it is important to have the amendment in the Bill. It will mean that statutory authorities must address the needs of those children. Statutory guidance is not enough and in any case, as we know, it is not yet ready. I support the amendment and hope that the Government feel able to accept it.

Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

I am delighted to hear that the Minister is certainly in listening mode. Having heard from the hon. Member for Blaydon that the Minister met with children’s charities on Friday, it is clear that she is in listening mode.

I would like to make the point that there is a lack in the role that local authorities should be playing under the Children Act, which I mentioned earlier. I led a council and was the children’s services lead at a time— 2010 onwards—when it got quite difficult. We were innovative and put children first. That was responded to by Ofsted, which awarded Westminster City Council the outstanding grade in children’s services. Again, last year, that was repeated—the first time any local authority had received an improved Ofsted outstanding grade. That was a brilliant example of how social workers and children’s services experts put the child at the forefront of all that they do.

Domestic abuse runs through so much, as we have heard today. Having launched the first ever domestic abuse strategy for Westminster back in 2012, I know that we put children at the heart of that.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

The hon. Lady cited the example of Ofsted, which I think is a good example, because schools have a legal duty to improve; if they do not, Ofsted has the power to intervene. She is not making the case that it is important for children to have a legal footing in the Bill. Does she see the similarities in the argument, and is she open to the idea that it might be worth exploring the concept of having a statutory definition of children in the Bill?

Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

I think it is down to the Minister to decide that, but, as I said, from the commissioner’s point of view, it is important to encourage and to be part of the whole system. There is a lack in the involvement of local authorities, which already exists.

Having sat on the CAFCASS board for several years, as I said earlier, I was appalled when we had a briefing from experts who had been sent to Birmingham City Council to do the quality assurance, because the council was letting down its children. What I took away from the briefing, and what I have taken away from the evidence we heard last week, is that local politicians have to play a part and ensure that they put their children at the heart of their children’s services strategy. There is still a lack of that approach. In Rotherham, for example, where were the local politicians holding their services to account?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I speak as a local politician in Birmingham. If we would like a tally of who can slag off Birmingham City Council more, I would definitely win. The hon. Lady is talking about the children who might interact with Birmingham City Council or Westminster City Council. The reality is that they represent a tiny fraction of child victims of domestic abuse. The vast majority the children we are talking about will never interact with any children’s social worker ever. It is the duty of the council to fund services beyond that. While I could definitely take pot shots at Birmingham City Council, it is fair to say that, in reality, it would not be able to afford most of what we might be suggesting here.

Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

Having been a local politician for over 15 years, I have always taken the view that it is not always about the money. It is usually about the attitude of local authorities and the innovation that they can bring. Westminster City Council achieved two outstanding Ofsted grades at a time when we saw about 50% of our funding cut.

Let me end with the words of Charlie Webster, a victim whom the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley quoted today. I spoke to Charlie this morning and, when I told her I was hoping to speak today, she said:

“Thank you so much for validating the many times I’ve had to convince myself my life is worth living both as a child and an adult. I’m praying that this will make a difference to actually start to tackle the root cause and allow children love and to reach their potential because they’re absolutely deprived of it in Domestic Abuse.”

That is where I would like to end. I am delighted that we are debating the Domestic Abuse Bill in Committee today.

Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)

I, too, am a new Member of Parliament and this is the first time I have sat on a Bill Committee.

Since I started as a Member of Parliament, I have been inundated with casework, as Members can imagine, given what has happened in my constituency. We have had terrible flooding, the coronavirus pandemic, and the comings and goings of a certain political adviser, but I have also had lots of casework relating to domestic abuse and domestic violence. It has mainly been from women, with some from men, and, more often than not, it includes children in the family units, all of whom are victims who need equal protection. As it stands, the Bill does not fully address the needs of children affected by domestic abuse.

As we have heard from other Members, this Bill has the opportunity to change things and to save lives. Lives are not saved through encouragement, guidance or attitude; they are saved through funding services and by putting children in the definition in the Bill. That is how lives will be saved. Given that the Bill will inform the Government approach to tackling domestic abuse, it is vital that we understand the impact on children. We have heard many harrowing tales; as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley said, we have all heard such tales.

Children need our protection and our support, and that needs to be fully reflected in the Bill. As a new Member and somebody who has already had people come to me about the issue, I cannot see how we would not include children, in order to save lives. It seems unconscionable to me that we would not do that. Members might say that legislation in the Children Act may save children, but what my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley said really hit me. There is legislation for everything now. We have legislation that will stop people from abusing people, but just include children in the Bill to save their lives.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship as always, Ms Buck. I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate and those colleagues who have not risen to their feet to speak. I know that there are a few who consider these matters very important and have given them great thought throughout the debate, and who will do so as we go forward.

I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley, for setting out the case for the amendment. I wholeheartedly agree that it is vital that we recognise that children are direct victims of domestic abuse. Growing up in a household of fear and intimidation can affect children’s wellbeing and development with lasting effects into adulthood. Children who are exposed to domestic abuse are more likely to experience mental health difficulties, to be excluded from school, and to become victims of domestic abuse in later life.

Many colleagues talked about adverse childhood experiences, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn, who cited one of the highest percentages of looked-after children in Wales and is obviously very concerned. That is something that I have to consider, not just in the context of domestic abuse, but in my work at the Home Office on gangs and violence against women and girls specifically. That factor has many repercussions beyond the immediate impact in the household where the abuse occurs. I am very alert and alive to that.

I thank the hon. Member for Blaydon for our virtual meeting on Friday and for clarifying that the issue that she mentioned is now no longer taken on age. I make that point because in a moment I will describe the journey on which the Government have been with the definition so that there is transparency and no mystery about why the definition is phrased as it is. In the Westminster Hall debate, the argument was made that there should be no minimum age threshold. I said frankly during that debate that although it was a balancing exercise, we had come down on the side of keeping the age of 16 as the threshold. I was very pleased that on Friday, having had our discussions—I hope I am not misquoting—there seemed to be consensus about keeping that age in the definition.

I will explain the Government’s approach so that there is no misunderstanding that we are not in any way taking into account the terrible impact that domestic abuse has on children. The approach that we have taken with the definition is to describe the relationship between the abuser and the abused—the immediate victim of the abuse—and to define categories of abusive behaviours. That will be relevant when we look at other clauses as, understandably, people want particular manifestations of behaviour to appear in the Bill. We draw people back to the fact that we are looking at categories of behaviour because, sadly, there are countless ways of emotionally abusing someone, for example, and—as Members of this House will know—if we listed everything in statute, it would take quite some doing to change or update it, whereas statutory guidance is more flexible and we can update it.

The basis of the definition in the Bill is to focus on the relationship between the abuser and the direct victim, and to define the categories of behaviour. The definition does not address the impact of abuse on adult victims. I would not dream of trying to define in statute how Claire Throssell, for example, experienced the harrowing and awful things that happened to her. Nor would I dream of trying to put into statute some of the experiences described by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley. We cannot do justice to them in the Bill.

That is the approach that we have taken, and that is why we place so much emphasis on the statutory guidance. That will be the document that commissioners and police forces look at to work out how to interpret the Bill at local level. Just as we have not put the impact of abuse on adult victims in the Bill, we have not done so with the impact of abuse on child victims. Instead, we will rely on the statutory guidance. We have, however, referred in the definition to the fact that perpetrators can use children in their abuse towards their victims. Clause 1(5) states that the perpetrator’s

“behaviour may be behaviour ‘towards’ B”—

the victim—

“despite the fact that it consists of conduct directed at another person (for example, B’s child).”

We have, therefore, put in the Bill the fact that the perpetrator may not confine their abusive behaviour towards the immediate victim, but that it can be directed through a child or another person as well. We have also emphasised the statutory guidance set out in clause 79(2)(b) in which the Secretary of State must issue guidance about

“the effect of domestic abuse on children.”

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I just wonder—this might be a massive ask—if the Committee could see that guidance, or have sight of at least that section about what we are going to discuss throughout the Bill.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I very much appreciate the request, but, sadly, I cannot provide the Committee with a copy at this point. When it comes to the transparency of the journey to this point, the guidance has not been created by a silo of Home Office officials who did not talk to anyone else. We have involved, consulted and asked other people, and that has included asking the designate domestic abuse commissioner for her views. Indeed, she mentioned last week that she had seen it. Other charitable sectors have been very much involved and consulted in the drafting of the guidance. Sadly, covid-19 has had an impact on our ability to draft the guidance so we have not been able to publish it in time for the Committee, but we are aiming to publish it in draft form before Report. I hope that members of the Committee will be able to see it before the next procedural stage, and I apologise for it not being available now. We want people’s views on it. All sorts of colleagues have been asking me whether certain things are being included in the guidance, and I have been saying to them, “This will be open for people to give their views on it.” Of course, I welcome views on it.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I wonder to what extent the Minister has considered the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, and the fact that when we are dealing with children we are at the jagged edge of devolution—between the laws affecting Wales and those in England—as well as considering how the interplay will work with these measures.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

The hon. Lady probably does not know this, but she may be committing a parliamentary first. The old hands that have previously sat on Bill Committees will know that part of a Minister’s job is to keep talking while her officials furiously scribble notes that are handed to her to enable her to accurately answer difficult questions. Sadly, I do not have that ability, but Members may see me looking at my mobile phone. I would be grateful if the hon. Lady would indulge me and allow me to return to that later, because she asks a specific question. In general, I am, of course, aware of the jagged edge, as she describes it.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Part of me feels that I may be a little bit boring in this Committee, because I have a duty to say, “Look at what has been done in Wales and look at the responsibilities that lie in Wales.” I fear—this came up in the Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill—that we have two pieces of legislation in operation and this piece of law will affect the legislation that I have mentioned. We will create wonderful events, or we may unexpectedly create tensions out of the divergence test. It is important that that is considered at this stage.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

Very much so. May I postpone my answer until we debate the amendment that the hon. Lady has tabled on Welsh devolution, so that I can address the point about clause 11? We are aware that good work is going on in Wales on domestic abuse through the devolved authorities. Where matters are devolved, we have the “jagged edge”, as she describes it: some areas in Wales are devolved and some are not. It is perhaps a little clearer cut in Scotland, but we are clear that we want to work with our Welsh colleagues, and I hope that the commissioner gave reassurance last week. I think I am right in saying that the Home Office has helped to fund the work on adverse childhood experiences has been conducted by the South Wales Police. We see that as a really important piece of work with the police and crime commissioner in South Wales, and we hope that it will help the rest of the country as the findings are evaluated.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

Perhaps my intervention will give the Minister’s officials time to get a note to her on the previous question. I realise that this might turn into a sketch from “The Two Ronnies”, with her answering the previous question to mine, but we will deal with that when it arises.

Can the Minister explain why there is a conflict between establishing the rights of a child in the Bill and having it in guidance? From what I have heard so far, I do not understand why we cannot have both.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

At the risk of turning into a sketch from “The Two Ronnies”, I am told that we will be consulting Welsh Ministers on the precise point raised by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, so I am grateful for that.

In relation to the intervention from the hon. Member for Hove, it is not a question of conflict. I was trying to explain the journey of the Government’s drafting of the definition. I do not wish anyone to think that children have been forgotten or ignored in the course of drafting the Bill. I hope that the references to children that we have scattered through the Bill—clause 66 is a good example—show our thinking on that.

Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)

The Minister has referred to some of the people who have commented on the early draft of the statutory guidance. Does she not agree that in their written and verbal evidence, most of them asserted a preference for the definition to include children?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I do. I am going to complete the journey, because I suspect that where I end up will, I hope, answer some of those concerns. I take on board carefully the views of children’s charities.

We have made sure that the domestic abuse commissioner is required to recognise the impact on children in her statutory functions, which can be seen in clause 6. Of course, we also have local authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster set out the responsibility and the ways in which local authorities can help to deliver services on the ground. Indeed, I was most interested to hear about the domestic abuse strategy introduced by her council under her leadership. That is a very sensible point to be making and it is why, in part 4 of the Bill, where we put the responsibility on tier 1 local authorities to provide support to victims of domestic abuse in safe accommodation, we have expressly referred to victims and their children in that duty.

The need for statutory agencies to recognise and respond to the impact of domestic abuse on children is already embedded in the Bill. Councillor Simon Blackburn gave helpful evidence last week—he has experience as a former social worker, but also as the current leader of Blackpool Council and through his work in the Local Government Association—about the safeguarding legislation in respect of children and how, in some cases, although I accept not all, the safeguarding legislation will kick in.

I also remind colleagues that in clause 54—this has not necessarily come to light yet in the evidence, but I hope it will do so in due course—as part of that duty, tier 1 local authorities are required to set up local partnership boards for domestic abuse. One of the members of that board must represent the interests of children who are victims of domestic abuse.

The theme of children, and the impact on children, already runs throughout the Bill, but I take very seriously the concerns that members of the Committee have voiced and, indeed, the concerns of children’s charities and the witnesses we had last week. I am going to reflect carefully on this debate, and I invite the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley to withdraw her amendment.

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

Order. I think the House is about to suspend for one minute’s silence.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I thank the Minister. I think that, in the words of Belinda Carlisle, everybody on the Committee dreams the same dreams and wants the same things—[Interruption.] Belinda Carlisle was not from Carlisle. The fact of the matter is that we all want the same thing from this Bill. We all want to see children represented in the Bill and the guidance—in every part of it. The Minister can point to clauses where children have been considered. We will not press the amendment to a vote, partly because the whole House would like the opportunity to discuss these issues further, with potential Divisions on Third Reading.

I want to say, with as much grace as somebody like me can manage, that it is a pleasure to hear that the Minister wishes to listen to what has been said today and what is being said by the sector, and seeks to act on it. I thank her for giving us the option of seeing the guidance prior to the next stage of the Bill. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Definition of “personally connected”

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I beg to move amendment 48, in clause 2, page 2, line 21, at end insert—

“(ee) one person is a provider of care to the other;”.

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 49, in clause 2, page 2, line 34, at end insert—

“‘provider of care’ means any person (‘A’) who provides ongoing emotional, psychological or physical support to another person (‘B’) with the aim of enabling B to live independently, whether or not A is paid for this support;”.

An amendment to ensure a carer of a person with disabilities is included in the definition of “personally connected”.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

We are now moving on from the definition to talk about exactly who we mean by “connected parties”. The amendment is a response to calls from people with disabilities and organisations within the disability rights sector that have been in touch with us to express their concerns about whether they are seen in the Bill.

As we said in the debate about whether children should be in the Bill, we recognise that there is a need for much more detailed and in-depth guidance. In relation to domestic abuse, we are potentially missing some real opportunities that genuinely need to be responded to with law—the courts of our land—but are currently not covered by the area of “connected parties”. The issue is those whose connection to a person is that they are their carer. We are not necessarily talking about paid carers.

Carers UK announced yesterday that 4.5 million people have become unpaid carers during the coronavirus crisis, so it is not a minority issue or something that happens only in certain areas. People who very much rely on others for their care might not currently be covered by what is outlined in the Bill as a connected party. They might never have been married or had a civil partnership. They might never have been divorced, which got a bit easier yesterday, and they might not be related. I should tell my husband that it got easier to get divorced yesterday—

Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)

He has been in touch already. [Laughter.]

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

The reality is that for lots of people a connected party to their wellbeing, their life, or what people would call their family, is a bit like in working class communities, although I am sure it happens in others: a woman lives down the road and her husband borrows somebody’s dad’s ladder, so they call her auntie, even though she is absolutely no relation whatever. We have to understand that in lots of people’s lives, connected people might not be what we would naturally recognise.

On the definition of “personally connected”, I want the Bill to reflect the realities of all domestic abuse victims. I want all victims to be able to access services, justice and support when needed. I think we would all agree that no victim should be left behind. We are taking our time—my gosh, it is quite a lot of time—to get the Bill right and see it through. It will never be perfect, but we should make every effort to make it as perfect as it can be.

Clause 2 defines what it means to be personally connected. In other words, the clause sets out the relationship between a victim and a perpetrator that comes under the definition of domestic abuse. The list includes what we would typically expect: as I have already laid out, those in intimate personal relationships with each other. However, my concern is that the clause, as it stands, fails to recognise the lived experiences of disabled victims of domestic abuse, who are among the most vulnerable. Their abuse often goes unnoticed.

The crime survey for England and Wales found that individuals with long-term illness or disability were more likely to be victims of domestic abuse. A 2016 report on intimate personal violence by the Office for National Statistics found that 16% of women with long-term illness or disability had experienced domestic abuse. Disabled victims are also more likely to experience domestic abuse for a longer period of time: 3.3 years, on average, compared with 2.3 years for non-disabled victims. With that in mind, I want the Bill to make it easier for disabled victims of domestic abuse to be recognised. To do that, we have to accept the reality of disabled people’s lives, where significant relationships are perhaps different from those of a non-disabled person with an unpaid carer.

Ruth Bashall, the chief executive of Stay Safe East, said that disabled people

“have emotionally intimate relationships with the people who, in very large inverted commas, ‘care’ for us, and the experience of abuse by those people is exactly the same as domestic abuse: the coercive control, the violence, the financial abuse and so on.”

It is important that we recognise, based on the evidence presented to the Committee, that a large number of disabled people will have no relationship with anyone except for the people who “care” for them. This type of close relationship can easily take on a problematic power dynamic that closely mirrors familial or intimate partner violence. As I have said, we can see how that might occur. I have been doing shopping and taking money from people who needed me to go to the shops for them. It would, if I were that way inclined, not be particularly difficult to build a relationship, a rapport and a need from me in that person that I could then exploit over a number of years. I would not do that, obviously.

In response to the Joint Committee’s report, the Government said that they did not propose to review the personally connected clause at the current time. Paragraph 60 of the their response states:

“If they are personally connected to their carer, this will be covered by our definition of domestic abuse. Otherwise, abuse of disabled people by their carers is already covered by existing legislation.”

What we heard from Saliha in the evidence session last Thursday was that, as a disabled victim of domestic abuse, she often finds that she is not understood by one or the other. As I have said this morning, her experience as a victim of gender-based violence or domestic abuse is often not expected, dealt with or understood by disability agencies, and vice versa: as a disabled person, she finds getting access to mainstream domestic violence services difficult.

We have to be very careful, when writing this Bill, not to ignore those intersecting groups of people and just say, “Well, there’s already existing legislation that would cover it.” It would not cover it from the point of view of domestic abuse because, as we all know, that has been lacking from our laws, and that is what we are here to try to improve.

I urge the Government to rethink their position for a number of reasons. First, it is not appropriate to say that abuse of disabled people by their carers is already covered by different legislation. This is a Domestic Abuse Bill for all victims. Therefore, if the abuse of a disabled person meets the definition of domestic abuse—if it is financially controlling, or if it involves sexual, economic or psychological abuse—but it is not by somebody in one of the connected party groups, that disabled person would not be left with many places to turn to take the case of domestic abuse to court or wherever.

If a disabled person meets the definition, that ought to be recognised and covered by this legislation, not something else. We cannot just keep saying, “Well, if you’re in this group you’re covered by this, and if you’re in this group you’re covered by this.” I would have thought that we would want to make a Domestic Abuse Bill that covers everybody.

I would go even further, and suggest that the Government’s response is a bit dismissive and fails to recognise the gender-based nature of domestic abuse solely because the victim is disabled. We cannot have domestic abuse covered by other legislation just because the person is disabled.

Secondly, while I appreciate that section 42 of the Care Act 2014 places a duty on local authorities to carry out safeguarding inquiries if they suspect abuse, that is no reason why disabled victims should not be represented in this Bill. Furthermore, there is evidence to suggest that local authorities are failing even to identify victims, even those who are at highest risk. Between 2015 and 2016, none of the 925 referrals of disabled victims to domestic abuse services were from adult safeguarding—zero.

I would be so bold as to bet that every piece of single adult safeguarding guidance in every adult safeguarding group that exists in every single local authority has domestic abuse written within it somewhere, and says that the vulnerable adults can be victims of domestic abuse. In all my years, I have literally never once referred a victim of domestic abuse to adult social care, because that is not what adult social care is for.

If I were to ring up my local authority or, I would even wager, Westminster City Council and say, “I’ve got this woman and she’s a victim of domestic abuse, and I see that that’s written into your adult social care board, so can I get a social worker out to see her later? She’s suffered some violence over the years and a bit of emotional abuse recently, the kids are getting a bit—”, the idea that an adult social worker would go out and see that victim is for the birds. The fact that zero referrals —none—to domestic abuse services of disabled women came from adult social care speaks to the evidence.

That is why we are proposing to amend the Bill to include carers in the definition of “personally connected”. Including carers will raise awareness and, I hope, help the police and local authorities to adopt better practices—for example, on something as simple as questioning a victim separately from the carer, which I imagine happens quite rarely. It is vital that those sorts of policies are put in place. The amendment provides an opportunity for us to tackle the profound inequalities faced by disabled survivors.

Stay Safe East sent a number of case studies, such as this one:

“A disabled woman was targeted by a man who was homeless. He gradually gained her trust and over a period of months, she began to see him as her friend, then as ‘better family than my own’. He assisted her first with shopping (while taking her money), then with household tasks and eventually with personal care. His controlling and intimidating behaviour towards the woman’s carers led them to withdraw the support, leaving him in complete control of the disabled woman’s life.”

To anyone who has ever worked in domestic abuse services, that sounds exactly like what a domestic violence perpetrator does—isolate, control and ensure there is no one else there to turn to. The quote continues:

“There was physical, sexual, emotional and financial abuse. The man then brought his friends into the woman’s home; they further intimidated her. When she was eventually able to seek help, her health had deteriorated due to neglect. Whilst the actions of the man and his friends could be described as ‘cuckooing’ (a term used by the police to describe taking over a person’s home for criminal or other purposes), they also constitute domestic abuse: the woman had a ‘close personal connection’ with the abuser which left her dependent on him and open to abuse.”

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I will try to finish in eight minutes. I thank the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley for setting out the case for her amendments.

Clause 2 defines “personally connected” for the purposes of the definition of domestic abuse in clause 1. We believe that the personal relationship between the perpetrator and the victim is central to the nature of domestic abuse, which is why our clause 2 definition of “personally connected” covers two individuals who are or have been in an intimate relationship or have a familial relationship, as defined. We believe that the connection between the two—the victim and the perpetrator—is central not just to our understanding in the Bill but, frankly, to the public’s understanding of what domestic abuse is.

The hon. Lady set out the horrors that disabled victims have faced. We absolutely agree that the abuse of a disabled person by their carer is as unacceptable as any other form of abuse, but we fear that the impact of the amendment would be to broaden the scope of the definition of “domestic abuse” by capturing a range of people who are not personally connected. That would widen the definition beyond how it is commonly understood.

The examples of exploitation that the hon. Lady gave could, as she says, be dealt with by other legislation. I myself have prosecuted carers for stealing the life savings of an elderly woman with dementia; we were able to catch that exploitation and the resulting loss with existing legislation, under the Theft Act. There are other examples of exploitation; it is not something that we like discussing in day-to-day life, but the fact is that there are forms of exploitation across many, many walks of life.

Another example within my portfolio is county lines gangs. Gang leaders ensnare vulnerable children as young as 11, 12 or 13, build relationships with them and build up the trust that the hon. Lady described in her examples. They offer them food or new pairs of trainers, and when the children have accepted those “gifts”, they are part of the gang—they are sent out to work: to rob, steal and deal drugs. That is exploitation.

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing amendment 49, in clause 2, page 2, line 34, at end insert—

“‘provider of care’ means any person (‘A’) who provides ongoing emotional, psychological or physical support to another person (‘B’) with the aim of enabling B to live independently, whether or not A is paid for this support;”.

An amendment to ensure a carer of a person with disabilities is included in the definition of “personally connected”.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

Just to recap, I was setting out to the Committee that there are many forms of exploitation that can take place in all walks of life. I was giving the example of county line gangs grooming and recruiting young children with, frankly, paltry offers given the price they pay for the items they receive, such as food or a new pair of trainers. The police have been imaginative in dealing with gang leaders, including through prosecution under modern slavery legislation, because they draw out before the court that element of grooming and long-term exploitation and manipulation. I give that just as an example.

I completely understand where the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley is coming from, but we have tried to guard against addressing all forms of exploitative behaviour in the Bill, because we do not want inadvertently to dilute that central golden thread that runs through all of our understanding of domestic abuse: namely, that it is focused around a significant personal relationship, whether as a family member or as a partner. That is the core of the definition. If an unpaid carer is a family member, they will be caught by the definition. If they are a partner—as she said, many people have taken on caring responsibilities in the last couple of months because of the covid-19 crisis—they are covered by the Bill. I would not want anyone to think that carers per se are excluded from the Bill, but we have focused the definition around the central point of the personally connected relationship.

Abuse of disabled people by their carers can be covered by existing legislation. Section 42 of the Care Act 2014 places a duty on local authorities to carry out safeguarding inquiries if they have reason to suspect that an adult in their area with care and support needs is at risk of abuse or neglect. There have been steady overall increases in the number of concerns raised and inquiries conducted under that section. In 2018-19, for concluded section 42 inquiries where a risk was identified, the reported outcome was to have either removed or reduced the risk to the individual in 89% of inquiries, which is an increase of 63% from 2017-18.

The statutory guidance supporting the Care Act also places a duty on local authorities to ensure that the services they commission are safe, effective and of high quality. The Care Quality Commission plays a key monitoring role to ensure that care providers have effective systems to help keep adults safe from abuse and neglect. The offence of ill treatment or wilful neglect provided for in section 20 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 was introduced specifically to tackle the abuse of people who are dependent on care services. In addition, we have introduced tougher inspections of care services by the CQC and made sure that the police, councils and the NHS work together to help vulnerable adults.

The plight of disabled victims of domestic abuse will feature in the statutory guidance. Indeed, there is the national statement of expectations document for local commissioners—we have not discussed it much because it is not strictly on the Bill—through which specialist needs are and will be addressed.

I hope that we have reassured the Committee that we are alive to the risks to people who are disabled. Some carers who fall into the “personally connected” definition will fall foul of the Bill, but for those carers who do not, there is already existing legislation to tackle exploitative behaviour where it transpires. With that, I invite the hon. Lady to withdraw the amendment.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I thank the Minister for her thoughtful response. I appreciate what she said about the Care Quality Commission and its coverage, but it would have had absolutely no jurisdiction in the cases I outlined. Disabled victims are telling us that they are experiencing domestic abuse and feel that they are not in the definition. I look forward to the statement of expectations very much; I am pleased to hear that there will be expectations on commissioning in this area, but we want to get these people in the Bill. We will push the amendment to a vote.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I beg to move amendment 29, in clause 2, page 2, line 24, at end insert—

“(h) they live, or at the time of the abuse lived, in the same household.”

This amendment would ensure that victims living with an abuser in the same household, for example as a flat share, are considered to be “personally connected”.

This is obviously a broader amendment than that of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley, and I am aware that the Minister has made some response, which I will try to address.

I have two main points. I was on the Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill last year and this is one of its recommendations—I will refer to that in a moment. Secondly, “personally connected” is a term that is used in the legislation in Wales and I have found it very interesting—I hope it is interesting for others as well—to make the comparison between the legislation in Wales and that which we are creating here today, and to be aware of how those two pieces of legislation sit together.

The report from the Commission on Justice in Wales, led by Lord John Thomas, came out in October 2019. We have a legislature in Wales alongside the legislation that we make in similar areas in Westminster, and the growing effect of the divergence of legislation needs to be considered, particularly the impact on the ground —on victims and perpetrators. The report from the commission—chaired by Lord John Thomas, previously of the Supreme Court—was commissioned by the Welsh Government, but we should be alert to the effects on justice in Wales, particularly in legislation such as this Bill where we already have legislation in a similar area in Wales, although with a very different effect.

Amendment 29 would insert those who live, or who at the time of the abuse lived, in the same household into the definition of those who are considered to be personally connected. Although we have voted, I was supportive of amendments 48 and 49. As the Bill stands, people who live in the same household but who do not have an intimate relationship are not considered to be personally connected.

There is an interesting golden thread, to use a phrase that has already been picked up on: we are using the phrase domestic abuse, but at the same time we are dealing with relationship abuse and how those two issues sit together, because they evidently do not merge entirely together—nor do they in the concept that we are dealing with here. It is important that we tease out the differentiations and that we do not get caught into assuming that a certain term means one thing when perhaps it means something else. We should be very aware of whether there are individuals we intend to safeguard in the legislation who otherwise fall outside of it.

First, I must say clearly that the purpose of my amendment is not to add into the legislation a requirement for the victim to live in the same household as the perpetrator in order to be protected. Rather, the amendment seeks to ensure that victims of abuse inflicted by a housemate in the same domestic environment as them, which might be a friend, a sibling or a cousin, would be protected in addition to those who are protected here, to ensure that we cover that environment-specific case.

There were relevant recommendations from the Joint Committee; I will just refer to them again, because I think that will enable me to refer to some of the points that the Government have made in the meantime. The Joint Committee recommended that the Government

“reconsider including the ‘same household’ criterion in its definition of relationships within which domestic abuse can occur. This landmark Bill must ensure that no victim of domestic abuse will be denied protection simply because they lack the necessary relationship to a perpetrator with whom they live.”

The Joint Committee recognised that

“abuse of disabled people by their ‘carers’”,

which we discussed earlier,

“often mirrors that seen in the other relationships covered by the Bill. We conclude that abuse by any carer towards the particularly vulnerable group should be included in the statutory definition. We share the concerns of our witnesses, however, that, even with the ‘same household’ criterion included in the definition of ‘personally connected’, paid carers, and some unpaid ones, will be excluded from the definition of domestic abuse.”

The Joint Committee therefore recommended that the Government

“review the ‘personally connected’ clause with the intention of amending it to include a clause which will cover all disabled people and their carers, paid or unpaid, in recognition of the fact this type of abuse occurs in a domestic situation.”

I am aware that the Minister has already referred to some of these matters. She touched on the Care Act 2014; just as an aside, and at the risk of repeating this all the time, I am not sufficiently familiar with the Care Act to be able to disentangle those areas that apply to England and those areas that apply to England and Wales, but I ask her at least to consider whether there are any possible gaps or loopholes in which there could be confusion of expectation. There may well not be, but one of my roles here is to ensure that we have checked that, care being devolved in Wales.

The only other point that I will make in relation to what the Joint Committee raised is the need for consistency of approach. Again, when we refer to previous legislation, or legislation that already exists, one of the alarm bells set off in my mind with this domestic abuse legislation is that what we are attempting to do here is to provide clarity and consistency. We have seen exactly the same issue with the range of sexual abuse offences. The fact that something exists in law does not mean that it is applied consistently across forces or even perhaps across local authorities. We need to be alert to ensure that what is put into this legislation is applicable and is experienced by victims consistently, as is intended. It is important to ensure that.

I have a few further points. As I mentioned earlier, this issue is particularly important when it comes to the victims and potential victims living in Wales, as definitions within Welsh legislation vary from what is included in the Bill. The Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, in its definition of associated people, includes people who live or who have lived in the same household, so a different definition is being applied in Wales.

That is particularly important, since this is something we may well have seen at this time of covid-19 and also with young people, because younger households are much more likely to live in house shares and to rent privately. When all the bedrooms within a single house are occupied—in a terraced house, for example—with everyone sharing a bathroom and kitchen, that is a domestic situation in which abuse may occur. The landlord may well live there. There is a question about whether the legislation is missing something there that we might wish to capture. The 2019 figures from the Office for National Statistics illustrate that people aged between 25 and 34 now account for 35% of households in that sector.

Private renters are more likely to have direct experience of unaffordability, of precarity in their relationship and in how they pay their rent, and of insecurity, particularly at the lower end of the private rental market. Although we cannot know the true extent of financial abuse or coercive control, I fear that those suffering in house shares are not sufficiently protected in the Bill. That situation warrants particular attention.

Housemates, or individuals living in shared accommodation, are covered under the 2015 Act but, as it stands, they would not be protected under the Bill. It is worth considering whether both pieces of legislation complement one another or if we have an overlap up to a point, but not beyond, and if so, whether that inconsistency will result in victims whom we might have intended to protect. The legislation should be as aligned as possible.

We debate the Bill in a context that is a world away from that in which it was first drafted. Looking back to the October draft—I remember discussing it this time last year with the Joint Committee—the world is a very different place now. The pandemic means that people who live with abusive housemates will have to spend more time than ever in the same house, and the places where they could previously spend time apart—cafés, pubs, gyms, other friends’ homes, or workplaces—are not available to them. We may well see a spike in that sort of behaviour, which is exactly the sort that was intended to be captured this time last year, but there is a risk that we are defining it too tightly now. Of course, this applies just as much to carers. Because people have spent far more time in each other’s company, we anticipate that when we come to review it, there will have been a spike in domestic abuse.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

The right hon. Lady has touched on a contemporary issue that has been happening throughout this crisis. It gives the Committee the opportunity to express our sincere gratitude to the frontline police officers and other statutory bodies who are doing so much to re-tool themselves during the crisis to ensure that they identify potential victims and people who are in danger of suffering domestic abuse, to offer support in really creative ways. We offer them our thanks. Will she join me in imploring the Minister and the enforcement agencies to learn from the experience that has been gained from this crisis, and to look at ways of putting that learning into live enforcement services, so that when we recover, we do not go back to business as usual, but aspire to do better?

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. In the legislation, the considerations will be about how to apply that and how to do so consistently. The training that is available for police officers and other support bodies will be critical. At this time, I beg that we make the legislation as future-proof as possible, because we have experienced something that is different to how the Bill was drafted. We must consider that now; we do not want to be playing catch-up.

To come back to my point, although I entirely understand that there is a debate between what we mean by the location of the abuse—in the household—and relationship abuse, we have found ourselves in our households far more.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

On people who live together, we must not assume that we are talking only about young, trendy people in Brighton who live together in a house share. In my constituency, there are very vulnerable people who live in houses in multiple occupation for years on end, with almost no support from the structure that is meant to support them. Landlords often receive the extra housing benefit without providing any of the support we would hope to see. We are talking about—I see it every day in my constituency—cases of very vulnerable people who may have suffered a pattern of abuse living alongside people who, also because of their vulnerabilities, are very likely to be abusing them.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

That broader awareness of what constitutes a household has been brought home to us in the past few months, as well as the nature of the tensions that can exist in such households. The thing that comes to my mind is younger households where house-sharing is common. One can imagine those are quite small households. But this applies more broadly than that.

If we were to assume that the nature of the coercive or abusive relationship is based on whether there is a sexual relationship between the two individuals in a formal sense, we would close our eyes to the wider experience and we should consider whether we should capture them in this legislation. That also applies where there are informal sexual relationships, which can be imposed on people to a degree in certain household environments.

I am aware that we have already voted on the specific aspect of this in relation to people and their carer. I would be grateful if the Minister would consider our experiences in the past few months and the inherent tension between whether we are looking at this on the basis of household—where someone is physically located—and those people who are intimately related, or whether this is an opportunity to capture a wider question.

Julie Marson (Conservative, Hertford and Stortford)

This amendment and the previous amendment speak to a common motivation to protect against an abuse that takes place in our society among many abusers of different relations of the powerful against the weak. I know that we are all motivated by a desire to address that.

I was a magistrate in a general court for several years before specialist domestic abuse courts were even envisaged and came into being. I saw a whole range of different contexts of abuse, but I wanted to be a part of the domestic abuse courts because it spoke to something special: a specific context of abuse based on a very intimate relationship. I do not want to dilute that, because that direction of travel—to have fought so hard to get recognition for domestic abuse as the uniquely invidious and insidious crime that it is—is something I do not want to go against.

While I completely empathise with the desire to prevent abuse wherever we find it, I believe that the direction of travel that is encapsulated in this landmark Bill is where we want to go. That is why I would resist attempts to dilute that aim, context and direction of travel.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd—gosh, I took a deep breath before trying to say that. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford has summed it up beautifully, if I may say so. I absolutely understand the motivation for the right hon. Lady’s amendment.

As we were saying earlier, exploitation takes many forms. I know that the hon. Member for Hove has shone a bright light on the concept of sex for rent. I keep coming back to this golden thread of the relationship. I think everyone understand that that is what the concept of domestic abuse centres around, so that is the approach we have taken with the definition.

We considered the Joint Committee’s recommendations very carefully. Our concern was that including “household” in the definition may have the unintended consequence of diverting people’s attention from those relationships where people do not live together. I am sure we can all think of examples of incredibly abusive relationships in which the two people in that relationship do not happen to live together.

I will give an example: I visited a fantastic women’s centre a month ago, which has independent sexual violence advisers and independent domestic violence advisers working together. The IDVAs could identify certain serial perpetrators in their local area who were in relationships with not one woman, but with several women at the same time. By definition, that perpetrator could not live with all of the women simultaneously, but was visiting them and conducting his abuse against many women at the same time. I am anxious that we do not inadvertently, with absolutely the right intentions, divert people’s attention away from the central purpose of the Act. We have also tried to ensure in clause 2 that where a relationship has ended, that is still considered within the definition, because we are alive to the fact of abuse after a relationship has ended.

Finally, we would not want to broaden the definition to such an extent that it covers areas, such as landlords and tenants, that I do not believe people think of when they think about domestic abuse. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford has said, it has taken us an awfully long time to get to where we are, and I hope we can work on ensuring that victims who are in abusive relationships have our attention and focus. These other forms of exploitation should also have focus—just not in this piece of legislation.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I appreciate the Minister’s response. I am slightly concerned about the fact that she talked about one man with a number of relationships with different people, and then a relationship that is over. There is something slightly contradictory about that.

Because of the times in which we are living through, our awareness of the impact of domestic abuse and the misery caused by it, and the awareness of our police forces, will have changed since this Bill was originally drafted. I therefore leave the Minister with a sincere plea to be alert to the fact that we need to learn on our feet very quickly.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Appointment of Commissioner

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

It is a privilege and honour to serve under your chairship, Ms Buck. This is the first time I have served under you, and it is an experience I am looking forward to. I have heard you are a very tough taskmaster.

I also pay tribute to the two Ministers present, who I know both want to make this the best legislation it can possibly be. I have worked with both Ministers in other areas, particularly the safeguarding Minister, the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle. She might not remember this, but the very first Bill Committee I sat on was one for which she was on the Back Benches: it was the Public Bill Committee on the Investigatory Powers Bill in 2015-16, so I am familiar with being in a room full of lawyers and people with legal backgrounds when considering these kinds of Bills. At that time, the hon. Lady and I were both on the Back Benches, and if I remember rightly she was the first of the 2015 intake to go to into Government. Here we are again on a Bill Committee together, both as Front Benchers, which is an honour for both of us.

This is an important piece of legislation, which we all need to get right. I pay tribute to the Back Benchers in Committee, who often do not get credit for these things. Those sitting on a Bill Committee for the first time, hearing the exchange I have just had with the Minister, should believe me that this is an opportunity for us all really to get under the hood of a piece of legislation and to go into some depth. Personally, and speaking for our Front Bench, I am looking forward to benefiting from the insight and wisdom that many Members will bring to this area.

We have already benefited from the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster with her experience on CAFCASS, the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service, and, ever since I realised that the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford was on the Committee, seeing her background, I have genuinely been looking forward to hearing what she has to say in her experience as a magistrate. Such things make legislation better, and this is a landmark piece of legislation to last for a generation.

The clause is a non-contentious part of the Bill, but there are things that we need to explore. Even though the clause is non-contentious, we still need to get it right and to seek assurances for aspects of it. In line 5, for example, the clause gives the Home Secretary the power to appoint the domestic abuse commissioner—quite right, too, because the Home Secretary should have that power, but it is also right for us to explore how that appointment will be made.

The Bill and the explanatory notes give no guidance as to how the appointment will be made in future. I realise that the Home Secretary and the Home Office will adhere to the public appointments principles, as with all other standard appointments, but the Bill includes no commitment to the role of Parliament, and this is a really important part of how we appoint such roles into the future. I refer specifically to the role of Select Committees in such appointments.

Select Committees in this country scrutinising and doing pre-appointment hearings was based loosely on the US model, where Committees have the statutory power of veto, although we do not have that power here. Since Select Committees have been involved in pre-appointment hearings—even in the five years I have seen that, experiencing it myself on a Select Committee on a number of occasions—there is no question that it has led to better appointments. I seek an assurance from Ministers that they will take that process seriously.

Additional scrutiny comes with such an appointment hearing, and the fact that the Select Committee is independent of Government gives another branch to that scrutiny, which is done in public and on the record. That is incredibly important. Crucially, it adds credibility and authority to the commissioner once appointed. We seek this reassurance for the future, because we are in the slightly strange position of talking about an appointment that took place before the Bill has even come in to give the powers to the Home Secretary to make the appointment. This is about the future.

I have seen such things going wrong. In 2015, I was a member of what became the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee when a commissioner who is not a household name was appointed, the Pubs Code Adjudicator. We were asked to do pre-appointment scrutiny. It was a fascinating process to go through, and we treated it with all sincerity. We worked very diligently, holding hearings for stakeholders—pub owners, licensees, the legal profession and all such different areas—and investing a lot of time in the process.

When the nominee came before the Committee, however, it was the most lamentable performance that I have ever experienced from anyone seeking public office. It was very clear that there was a conflict of interest, which the potential appointee did not even seek to hide and refused to give up. Something quite unusual happened: the Select Committee refused to grant permission for the appointment. This was our statement to the Secretary of State on concluding the hearing:

“While the Committee has no reason to question Paul Newby's integrity or his qualifications for the job, his long-standing relationship with pubcos through his past work and a continued financial connection has created a strong perception of a conflict of interest.

The Pubs Code has the potential to significantly improve the embittered relationship between pubcos and many of their tenants, but it will only work if the Adjudicator is seen to be independent and is able to command the confidence of all the industry’s stakeholders.

The Committee would like to see a new Pubs Code Adjudicator appointed from outside the sector, to ensure that this important role is—and is seen to be—completely independent and impartial.”

Within a week, the Secretary of State had gone ahead with the appointment, against the advice of Parliament, and there has been a very fractious relationship ever since. It has never been an appointment that has wholly had the support of the sector that the adjudicator was appointed to represent. Even though that example is from a slightly tangential area of policy, the principle still stands very strong.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend was going to come on to this, but exactly the same thing happened when the chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission was selected. Both the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Women and Equalities Committee put in complaints that were nothing to do with his character or his abilities, but specifically to do with his running Government contracts. That was completely ignored by the Secretary of State, and I am afraid to say that that conflict of interest has been used by people who are potentially under question from the EHRC at the moment to suggest that the commission is in some way compromised. This has an effect on people’s ability to do the job.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

I am grateful for that additional example. I am very aware of the case study that my hon. Friend refers to, even though I was not going to bring it into my few words. It illustrates an incredibly important point: having the support of Parliament is an empowering force behind any public appointment. Furthermore, it offers increased credibility. It starts with a commissioner having the respect of—and a functional relationship with—not just the Government who made the appointment, but Parliament.

In our system of democracy, we take very seriously the relationship between Government and Parliament. Parliament will play a part in scrutinising, so if it has a hand in appointing, there is buy-in from the start. It really is a win-win for Parliament to be involved via the Select Committees.

The appointment has already gone ahead, and I do not think that anybody would say that Nicole is either not qualified for the job or not a welcome appointment to it—but this is certainly something that we need to think about for the future. In my earlier example, it is very clear that even though the public appointment went ahead and had the backing of Government and Ministers, the role has never lived to up to the expectations that were set for it when it was first created. I implore Ministers not just to submit future commissioner appointments to an appointment hearing with the Home Affairs Committee, but to give the Committee the power of veto.

I realise that giving power away is not in the DNA of the Home Office. It is not the normal trajectory that we see from Home Office Ministers, but there are times when giving power away is a very empowering act that leads to a much more functional relationship between Government and Parliament, Parliament and the appointee, and the appointee and Government.

The Home Office has already appointed the commissioner, and it is worth putting it on the record at this point that the Joint Committee on the Draft Domestic Abuse Bill, which scrutinised the previous and similar legislation to that which we are examining today, was not happy that that happened. It said, in paragraph 287 of its report, that

“we were surprised to learn that the process of recruiting a designate Commissioner had almost been completed before Parliament had had any opportunity to consider—still less to recommend any changes to—the draft Bill setting out proposals for the Commissioner’s remit and powers… We consider this unsatisfactory.”

I agree, and I suspect many Members in this room agree. They are free to do so, because there will not be a vote at the end of our discussion on this clause.

We all appreciate the enthusiasm of Ministers and the Home Office to get this appointment out the door, but I have to say that, even though we agree with and celebrate the appointment of Nicole Jacobs, the Minister and Government got away with it this time. Had that appointment not had the backing of the sector and of Parliament, it would be very hard to establish the credibility that this role needs within the sector.

I hope that my words will have made an impression. We purposefully did not put down an amendment to this clause, because we did not want to press this point, but we do want to impress it on people in the strongest possible terms that the joint relationship between Parliament and Government in making the appointment in future is something that will tangibly strengthen the role.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his constructive and considered comments on this matter. I thank him also for reminding me of the Investigatory Powers Bill, proceedings on which, it is fair to say, were more fiery than those on this Bill.

I very much take on board what the hon. Gentleman says, in that we have always been very conscious that the commissioner must have access to Parliament and must be accountable to Parliament in the sense of laying annual reports. Indeed, we have made it—I suspect that we will come on to this in a little while—their responsibility as a commissioner to lay their annual report before Parliament. They, not the Secretary of State, will lay it, decide when it is laid and so on. We have been very careful to ensure that.

Going back, I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman raised about the Joint Committee. I will explain the reason why we appointed the designate domestic abuse commissioner. I personally interviewed a number of impressive candidates for that role, and there were a couple of reasons why we wanted to appoint the designate domestic abuse commissioner.

First, we knew that the legislation would take time to get through the House and we felt that the commissioner could start the groundwork without their statutory powers, because of course the statutory powers are in the Bill. There was groundwork that she could start with—for example, setting up her office, building relationships and beginning to work out where there were particular areas of work that she wanted to focus on. That could all start, and I have personally found the designate commissioner’s assistance, over the last couple of months in particular, absolutely vital, because she has been key in drawing together the charities that are working on the frontline in the covid-19 crisis. She has a Monday call—she referred to it in her evidence and was kind enough to invite me to attend one of the calls—where she speaks to the sector across the country. She then processes that information and data for the Government, so that we are able to formulate policies to help in the very time-sensitive manner that we have been able to. I really value her contribution.

The commissioner will, of course, be accountable to Parliament through Select Committees, as the hon. Gentleman said. I certainly expect the Home Affairs Committee to call her, and the Justice Committee may choose to call her too, so there will be accountability.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

I am very grateful to the Minister for her tone and the content of her words. What will she do if one of those Select Committees refuses to endorse a candidate that she puts forward? That is the key question. What will she do if it does so, after having a considered set of deliberations, based on sincere and non-partisan evidence? How would she react to that?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

Let us take a step back, because I would not want the hon. Gentleman to think that we appointed the designate commissioner on a whim. There is a very careful and methodical appointments process. He can imagine the scrutiny carried out by the legal advisers in the Home Office, the Cabinet Office and elsewhere, who pay attention to how we conduct these appointment processes. It is the same for other commissioners. I also have responsibility for the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner, and I do not think anyone would claim that Dame Sara Thornton is not independent and is not an extremely powerful voice in tackling the world of modern slavery. We have careful and methodical appointment processes. I am confident in the two appointments that I have been involved in, and I hope that we have weeded out the sorts of concerns that he is flagging. Once the appointment is made and the Bill is passed, if substantial changes are not made to it, we expect to be able to follow that through.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

The Minister is being very generous and warm-hearted. I am not sure how she will be in a few days, but for now I fully embrace her generosity. What is the point of a Select Committee scrutinising somebody’s record and background, with a view to a public appointment, if it does not have any power over whether the appointment can go ahead afterwards? Would its time not be best spent doing something else if its conclusions mean nothing when it comes to the final decision?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I again come back to the responsibility of the Minister making the appointment. It is a real responsibility; it is certainly something that weighed heavily on my shoulders. I am conscious that if we miss what we are trying to achieve with the appointment, that will have an impact on not just the commissioner, but the Minister and the Department. Just as the commissioner is accountable to Select Committees, so too are Ministers. Given that we follow the public appointments process, I am satisfied that we will recruit the right person for that role and equivalent roles.

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I draw his attention to the drafting of clause 3. Subsection (3) is there to ensure that the commissioner is not regarded as a servant or agent of the Crown. We say that that supports their independence. I suspect that that will be a feature of amendments to come. With the appointment, we have wanted to ensure that the commissioner is able to start using her statutory powers when the Bill receives Royal Assent. The Committee has already heard reference to the mapping exercise of community-based services that the commissioner will undertake once she has her powers under clause 8. That is something that we have sought her help on, and we very much look forward to her assistance on that.

We want the commissioner to be a powerful voice; we want her to stand up for the victims of domestic abuse and hold public authorities to account where necessary, as is set out in clause 14. I am pleased that the designate commissioner has been welcomed by those working on the frontline, and people who are perhaps not so involved in the day-to-day concerns about domestic abuse can see that she is an expert appointment. She has more than 20 years’ experience, and she is bringing her expertise and drive to this crucial role.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

The Minister has mentioned the designate commissioner’s experience and suitability for the job a number of times. I would never want to give the impression that I do not agree with the designate commissioner’s suitability for the job, and it is very important for the sector, in the absence of an appointment based on legislation and on parliamentary scrutiny and hearings, to hear the cross-party support for the designate commissioner. I hope that the Minister will accept our support for her as well when she makes her remarks.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I do not think that anyone read into the hon. Gentleman’s constructive comments about this appointment anything other than that he was doing his job of scrutinising the wording of the Bill, and I am pleased that the designate commissioner has managed to gain such support in such a short period of time.

I commend the clause to the Committee.

Funding

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

These clauses all relate to the powers of the domestic abuse commissioner; there is a huge area of the Bill about her powers and how this role is going to work. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hove and the Minister have said, we all welcome the commissioner.

I want to make some brief comments about the issue that clause 4 deals with, which is funding. It arises from a constructive concern that I had during the evidence sessions and on Second Reading, which is that it appears that if there is something that the Government have not yet got an answer for, possibly for a completely good reason, there is a tiny bit of a willingness for them to say, “We’re going to ask the commissioner to do this thing for us.”

For example, on Second Reading, there was a push from all sides of the House, as there was from the sector and from the commissioner herself, around the provision of community-based services. Off the top of my head, the statistic is that 70% of all domestic violence victims are supported in community-based services. The vast majority of people will never end up in refuge accommodation, and that is something that we should continue to facilitate; refuges are absolutely not for everyone.

What concerns me and what we heard from some in the sector—I think it came from the voice in the room that was Suzanne from SafeLives—is that what was announced on Second Reading related to a mapping exercise rather than a duty. In the Bill, we see—it seems like we will see it in many weeks’ time—a duty on refuge accommodation, which we certainly all welcome, but there is definitely a desire, which I share, to see a similar duty on community services.

It seems that rather than a duty, the Government are proposing a mapping exercise—they proposed it on Second Reading—by the commissioner, to understand what community-based support exists. As Suzanne told the Committee in her evidence—I have to say, I think I could probably do it here now. If I did not come to the Committee tomorrow, I could probably map out community services, because droves and droves of evidence have been gathered about what community-based support services exist. I feel for the Government, because people like me put in questions such as, “How many bed spaces are there?”, when I know full well what the answer is. I understand the concern and the need to map services, and to make sure that we are funding things.

What concerned me a little on Second Reading and in the evidence sessions was that there were a huge number of questions from Members asking the sector what they felt the commissioner should be doing: “What is the commissioner going to do for my group of women? What is the commissioner going to do about this and that?”. They were completely reasonable questions to ask, although largely they were asked not of the commissioner, but of the voluntary sector aides and the victims. With the greatest respect to Nicole and her position, I am not sure most victims of domestic violence are too concerned with who the commissioner is, but the sector is.

What concerns me is the commissioner’s funding model. I know that there was some argy-bargy and push and pull about the number of days, which letters presented to the Committee on the previous Bill said would be increased. What worries me on staffing, which is dealt with in the next clause, and funding is that the commissioner will end up with all these jobs because, rather than taking direct action, we do another review or more mapping. It starts to ramp up the amount of funding that somebody will need to take on all this extra responsibility.

I want to be absolutely certain and to understand from the Minister what the mechanism is if the commissioner says: “I cannot afford to do this exercise that you have said I should do because I no longer have the funding.” What I do not want to see is Parliament scrutinising the domestic abuse commissioner—she and whoever takes the role after her will undoubtedly many times in their career sit in front of the Home Affairs Select Committee—and her being forced to answer: “I couldn’t afford to do this exercise or this report into x because we just didn’t have the budget.”

There seems to be a tendency to push things on to the commissioner that would once upon a time have sat with civil servants in the Home Office. I want an understanding of how the review process and funding will be taken forward and what grounds it will take to make a case to increase the budget, including increases that might be needed for the local boards that are associated with this part of the Bill. I therefore seek reassurance from the Minister.

There is a game that gets played—although certainly not by the Ministers in this Committee—of the devolution of blame. We devolve power, whether it is to Wales or Scotland or to local authorities, whereby the Government hold the whip hand. I am certain that all Governments of all flavours have done this. The Government hold the whip hand in deciding the funding formula or within what constraints that money may be spent. When problems arise we say, “Well, that’s Birmingham City Council’s fault because they are rubbish.” Again, if I was given £1 for every time I heard the invocation of the Welsh NHS, I could fund all community services. What worries me and what I do not want to see is an underfunded commissioner, with the Government saying, “That is the commissioner’s responsibility,” given that ultimately all this policy—everything that flows from the Bill and everything that happens in every single one of our local authorities—

Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West)

We have heard several times today already that the Bill is landmark legislation and that we should be future-proofing it in certain ways. Do I understand from what the hon. Lady says that we have to future-proof it against undermining public confidence, through arguments about whether it has been sufficiently funded and who is to blame for that—and should we take the opportunity at this point to make sure that that argument cannot arise?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

Absolutely. I am not asking for a bottomless pot of funding for the commissioner for ever and ever. I am sure that, even if the Minister were to ask really nicely, the Treasury would tell her no—although it would seem that that is not so much the case now, given that my husband is furloughed at home. The reality, though, is that I do not want to put the commissioner into that position. The Minister invoked the position of the independent anti-slavery commissioner. Of course, we have seen—perhaps not from this appointment, but from previous appointments, when Kevin Hyland was commissioner—that he very much felt there were problems in that particular area. Will the Minister reassure me, first, that we will not be expecting the commissioner to do the job that we do here, the legislators, people with a mandate and elected to office, and that we will not apportion blame where children’s services, for example in local areas, have not been suitably encouraged by the commissioner; and secondly, that where there is a real need for her to do something on which she will then have to answer to a Select Committee, for example, that she will be resourced properly?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I appreciate that this debate has been probing clause 4 and the resources available to the commissioner. We have provided the commissioner with an overall annual budget of over £1 million, which, among other things, will provide for 10 to12 staff to support the commissioner in carrying out her functions. In addition to the money from the Home Office, under clause 8(3) we have given the commissioner the power to charge a person—and when we say “person”, we are not talking about an individual but an authority or an organisation—for providing them with advice or assistance under subsection (2). We appreciate that exercises such as mapping community-based services will take a great deal of staff time and resources: it will take relationships across the country.

On the subject of mapping, I remember that just after I was appointed, two and a half years ago, my officials had done a very quick and dirty analysis of community-based services in a particular county—I will not name the county. They had found that there were something like 80 charities in one county who were working to help victims of domestic abuse. They ranged from the largest, national-type charities to the sort of charities where it is my great privilege to meet and discuss their work with their founders, who perhaps have set up a charity to commemorate a loved one who has been killed by a partner, for example. In their individual ways these charities work sometimes at a very local level to provide services. I wish that trying to map that was as easy as one would like it to be, but it is a difficult task, which is why we are asking the commissioner to do that for us. That is not because she is going to be in charge of policy creation but because, with the powers she will have under the Bill, the commissioner will be able to request that information from the public authority, as set out in the Bill. Then she will be able to produce advice and a report.

That touches on the point that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley raised earlier about the meaning of the word “encourage”, and I apologise for not responding to it sooner. We believe that clause 14 is very powerful when read in conjunction with clauses 13 and 15. Clause 14 sets out the powers to request information and assistance from public authorities. Clause 15 sets out the requirement that the public authority must respond within 56 days to the report or the analysis by the commissioner. They report not just to the commissioner, but to the Secretary of State. I do not want to cast aspersions on any particular type of public authority; the public authorities mentioned in clause 14 include nationally known organisations as well as local councils and authorities. If there is a report by the commissioner condemning the conduct of one of those public authorities, and the authority has to respond within 56 days, that is quite a powerful tool for the commissioner. As we have already discussed, the commissioner is also required to lay annual reports before Parliament. It may well be that, as part of her general functions under clause 6, she will want to express her views on the conduct of public authorities in her annual report. Again, I do not want to direct her—she is independent—but this is a way to keep the commissioner and public authorities accountable.

On funding, we know that being in Government is about making tough choices. We have funding for the Home Office to be allocated across a whole host of deserving causes, including policing, counter-terrorism and maintaining a fair and effective immigration system. The budget we have set aside for the domestic abuse commissioner is what we have allocated. In setting that budget, we have looked at the budgets of other commissioners to ensure that it compares favourably, which it does. We will keep the budget under review, and the commissioner will discuss with the Secretary of State her budgetary needs for the forthcoming year. We have provided the commissioner with the available resources, because we want her to be able to fulfil her functions as set out in clause 6. It is not about attributing blame, but about trying to ensure that this new, powerful appointment will help us tackle domestic abuse and that, at both national and local levels, we can utilise what she will bring with her laser-like focus on domestic abuse. Her power and authority flow from clause 6, and I hope we will see real differences—not just nationally but in our constituencies over time, as public authorities realise that they are accountable not just to the public, but to the commissioner.

Staff etc

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

I just want to say a few words about the clause. Again, the Opposition do not oppose it or seek to amend it, but we want to ensure that we get it right. I accept the Minister’s previous comments on clause 4, and I was really pleased that she mentioned the role of the voluntary sector and did so in a way that reflected the complex tapestry of the voluntary sector. The fact that there might be many dozens of organisations— perhaps 80-odd—working in one area is something that I am very familiar with, having worked in the voluntary sector previously.

Duplication is a challenge that I faced when I ran the Association of Chief Executives of Voluntary Organisations, the umbrella body that co-ordinated the work of the voluntary sector. We did a lot of work on duplication and on trying to get third-sector organisations to work together and to share expertise and resources. That is more essential now than it ever has been, but it is not a problem that affects just the voluntary sector. I also had the pleasure of being an adviser in the Cabinet Office for almost two years, in 2006 and 2007. When we did one of our what seemed like annual reviews on waste and duplication in the civil service, we found that two committees in the Department for Education were looking at duplication. Just when someone thinks they have seen it all in one sector, they move to another and look beneath another rock.

However, these are important things to bring into our deliberations on clause 5. Clause 5 essentially gives the Secretary of State the power to appoint staff for the commissioner and to appoint the resources for it, and therefore gives the Secretary of State quite considerable oversight and input into the effectiveness of the personnel, or the commissioner, with regards to their ability to work and to be productive, directly impacting the scale of work that they can undertake.

Clause 5(1) states:

“The Secretary of State must provide the Commissioner with—

(a) such staff, and

(b) such accommodation, equipment and other facilities,

as the Secretary of State considers necessary for the carrying out of the Commissioner’s functions.”

The key thing here is what

“the Secretary of State considers”,

not what an independent observer or what the commissioner herself considers appropriate for the job. There are two aspects to this: how resources are deemed appropriate in the first place, and whether that is done in conjunction with the commissioner, which I assume it would be in a functional relationship; the Minister is nodding, which is reassuring. However, it is also to do with the appointments themselves, because the Home Office retains the power to oversee and involve itself in some aspect of the recruitment.

My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley mentioned the former independent anti-slavery commissioner. He gave stark evidence before the Joint Committee, which it is worth referring back to, because this is what we have to avoid going forward. It certainly shines a light on what is potentially within the scope of the Bill as drafted. On page 77, paragraph 298 of the Joint Committee’s report says:

“Kevin Hyland told us he was concerned that the Secretary of State would have too much control of the Commissioner’s budget—

referring to the commissioner for domestic abuse—

“the staff employed and the content of the Commissioner’s reports. He pointed particularly to the power wielded by the Secretary of State through control of the Commissioner’s budget, noting that immediately he took up his post, the Home Office had proposed a reduction in the funds that Parliament had been told he would be given.”

Immediately after that commissioner was appointed, the Home Secretary tried to reduce the funds that Parliament had informed him he would have. These powers for the Home Secretary all exist in the Bill as it stands before us.

The bottom half of that same paragraph says

“he described the process of appointment as ‘unbelievable’, adding: ‘Sometimes I would select staff, and seven months later they had not arrived, or when they did arrive they sometimes waited two or three months for pay. In my 30 years in the police, I never, ever saw that happen once.’ He also described his experience of producing reports which, because they had to be approved by the Secretary of State, had to go through a long process of negotiation with and modification by a number of officials, with the final report not fully representing his views.”

We will come back to the latter point in discussions on future clauses. He raises in his testimony something on which we really need assurance from the Minister. The wording of the Bill as it stands is

“as the Secretary of State considers necessary”.

Therefore, the power is with the Secretary of State, the timing is with the Secretary of State and the amount of resource is with the Secretary of State.

We seek further reassurance from the Minister that the lessons described by one of the designate commissioner’s predecessors in another commission role have been learned, because that was a few years ago. If they have, the designate domestic abuse commissioner will not have to wait months—seven months—before her staff take office, she will not have the constant to and fro between numerous Ministers, and she will not be publicly promised one set of resource only to find that, when she gets into the office, it has been cut, changed or altered without any consultation at all. All of those powers and the ability to do those things are contained in the Bill. We will not oppose the clause because we understand why the Home Office and the Home Secretary need and desire those powers, but we request the assurance that they will not be abused in the same way they were demonstrably and clearly in the past.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not accept his premise in relation to the independent anti-slavery commissioner. I am happy to say that I have a good working relationship with the current commissioner—I think it is good, anyway—and I am not aware of concerns as described by Mr Hyland in relation to the current commissioner. I take that relationship very seriously.

On the control of the Home Secretary in the clause, as the hon. Gentleman put it, I point him to subsection (2) which says:

“Before providing any staff, the Secretary of State must…consult the Commissioner, and obtain the Commissioner’s approval as to the persons to be provided as staff.”

In other words, the appointments cannot happen without the commissioner’s approval. The Secretary of State must also consult the commissioner before providing any accommodation, equipment or other facilities.

Let us be clear: the commissioner is an independent office holder. Ministers cannot and will not dictate their work plan, nor determine their recommendations. We expect the commissioner to provide robust and challenging advice and recommendations to national Government as well as local commissioners. However, we need a degree of ministerial oversight, as with all public bodies.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

The Minister says that the Home Office does not have the power to direct workflow, but the Home Office does set the framework, and that does dictate the scope and scale of work undertaken. Does she therefore agree that the Home Office has significant input into what work is undertaken?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

The draft framework document we published alongside the Bill for colleagues to look at was produced in conjunction with and agreed with the commissioner. Therefore, some of the details we have discussed thus far on this part of the Bill are in the framework document. It is a public document—we are trying to be transparent—and it is made with the agreement of the commissioner, which I think is really important. The reason there has to be a degree of ministerial oversight is so that, for example, we ensure that public money is spent according to Treasury principles. The relationship between the Department and the commissioner will be codified in the framework document as provided for by clause 10.

In terms of the employment of staff, although staff will be employed by the Home Office as civil servants, the Bill, as I say, expressly provides that individual appointments must be approved by the commissioner.

I am pleased to say that the commissioner already has one member of staff as a designate commissioner. Her statutory powers are not yet in force, because we await the passage of the Bill, and the recruitment process will continue as the powers are approved.

It is very much for the commissioner to run her own office. We want a good working relationship with the commissioner. It is in everyone’s interests. That is the basis on which I and, I know, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, conduct our relationships with, for example, the Victims’ Commissioner, in the case of my hon. Friend, and the commissioners for domestic abuse and modern slavery, in my case.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

Just to clarify, the arrangement is the same as was described by the previous modern slavery commissioner. The Home Office does not select the individual staff, but internal Home Office recruitment processes might well play a part if it is a matter of secondment, or if there are other processes that need to go through the channels of the Home Office. I am not one of those people who bash the public sector—I think we see excellence in recruitment, human resources and the management of personnel in the public sector—but sometimes things can be slow, and the purpose of an independent commissioner is to bring expertise and entrepreneurialism—the approach from outside—into the heart of Government. Will the Minister assure us that that pace and speed will be matched by Home Office work when it comes to requests by the commissioner?

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

Order. Interventions need to be short. I do not want to be too heavy about it, but I will be if I have to.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I assure the hon. Gentleman that appointments to the commissioner’s office—precisely because they are civil servants—will of comply with civil service terms and conditions and recruitment practice. I hope colleagues will view those as being of a very high standard—objective and meritocratic. As to urging the Home Office to move speedily, I take that challenge forward. We will use our best endeavours because we want the commissioner to be as powerful as she can be as quickly as possible.

General functions of Commissioner

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I note that we are having a wide-ranging debate, and jumping from one clause to another, and I will take some advantage of the fact that the clause is about the general functions of the commissioner to give some general, broad input on this clause and some of those to follow.

As has already been said by pretty much everyone —probably even including myself, although it is hard to remember now—we very much welcome Nicole’s appointment, and we welcome the invention of a commissioner full stop. In fact, I remember not knowing this building at all well and being brought down here, when the now Victims’ Commissioner was a Member of Parliament. The Labour party was running a women’s manifesto-building session, in one of the rooms here for victims of domestic violence and those who worked with them. It was long before I even stood for the council, and I just came to this building and gave evidence. One of the things we pushed for then, probably in about 2011, was the creation of a commissioner, so it is incredibly welcome that we are now starting to see those powers come into play. I hope that they will be a catalyst for change in domestic abuse policy. They will certainly allow us to find gaps—or, as the Minister has outlined, over-supply—and, more importantly, solutions to fill those gaps.

In the Joint Committee report published on 14 June, a number of concerns were raised by witnesses and the Committee about the role of the commissioner. Those concerns were also raised at the aforementioned evidence session. Today, I still think that some of them have not been allayed. My hon. Friend the Member for Hove has gone over some of those issues, but there are a few things I wanted to pick up specifically around the commissioner’s general functions.

The domestic abuse commissioner has the potential to effect real change in the way domestic abuse services operate. However, for that potential to be realised, we must first ensure that the Bill is amended to resolve the substantial concerns that could stymie the commissioner’s remit in terms of independence, resource and power. We have laid some of the amendments to do that.

With regard to the remit, which is in clause 6, my first point is not a complaint but rather a comment as to the operation of the commissioner’s role and how best she can make a positive contribution to combat domestic abuse. Notwithstanding comments from witnesses to the Joint Committee and the subsequent recommendations, the Government have made it clear that the role of the commissioner and the Bill are limited to domestic abuse and do not cover other forms of violence against women and girls. One notes from our debates earlier around the definition of domestic abuse that the words “sexual abuse” are within that definition. That has not been ignored. Around 56% of all reported rapes happen within people’s marriages. One of the most amazing facts—I say this to schools when I go and visit—is that raping your wife was only made illegal in 1991. So, John Major, that and the cones hotline are things to be very proud of.

The level of sexual violence in domestic abuse cases is shocking, and there is some concern about the functions of the commissioner, whose role is—to be very purist—about domestic abuse. What is her interaction to be with rape and sexual violence organisations such as Rape Crisis England and Wales, for example? That is yet to be ironed out.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I just want to draw attention to some of the subsections in clause 6 and the interaction between the domestic abuse commissioner and the Senedd. I can see complications in exactly that area, and it needs clarity.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

Absolutely, because, in Wales, it is a violence against women and girls situation. The Minister will remember—it might not be as far back as the Investigatory Powers Bill, but it is from way back at the beginning of this particular Bill—that, for many, many moons, we went over the conversation about whether this should be a violence against women and girls Bill. People like me were very much on the side that it should be—that you cannot see domestic violence in a vacuum and that it exists within a framework of patriarchal norms in society. However, I do not make those amendments to this Bill now. We have come an awfully long way and worked very hard together over many years to this point.

In this area, however, there is potential for people to put pressure on the current commissioner. I happened to run a rape crisis service as part of a domestic abuse service. We had a standalone rape crisis service. I can see how I would have said, “Well, they’ve got a commissioner—I’m just going to go to her.” Nicole may very well end up feeling conflicted by that, because much is part of the process.

It is clear that the commissioner must take care to spread her powers as widely as possible, and must ensure that a multi-agency approach is taken and that the needs of the third sector in this regard, specifically, are considered. From the evidence we received in the evidence sessions from the Victims’ Commissioner—although we did not hear from the Children’s Commissioner, she sent in evidence for us to consider—I am aware that all of the commissioners are working closely together to, for want of a better word, divvy up some of the concerns. We need some clarity on that. The Victims’ Commissioner, a woman who has incredible experience in the violence against women and girls area, is also responsible for antisocial behaviour and for victimhood of all kinds, so it will be important to make sure that we have clarity of purpose on remit and functions of the commissioners.

Referring to clause 11, I also feel that the third sector should be represented on the commissioner’s advisory board, together with representatives from marginalised groups, such as migrant women, older people, disabled victims and—dare I say it?—children. The commissioner must also take account of those groups and their respective needs, placing survivors at the heart of everything she does. Following last Thursday’s evidence session, there is no question but that the commissioner has taken all of what I am saying on board. I raise it simply to urge her and the Minister to continue to ensure that that is the case.

I mentioned earlier that the violence against women and girls sector can be fractious. The thing that stops it being fractious—we could say this about any sector—is individuals’ personalities. If a certain person changes, or two people change, and people get on better and have a friendship and relationship, that will change the approach, so we have to make sure that all the things I have said about the commissioner’s functions and role in working with the voluntary sector do not simply rely on the fact that Nicole is a really good egg, but are built into the commissioner’s remit and functions.

Although I am hopeful that our new clause on this issue will ensure that the definition of domestic abuse is gendered—that will be for next week, I imagine—I again urge the commissioner to consider the impact of domestic abuse on women and girls. I am almost certain that the Minister will rise to her feet and say that that will be in the guidance, but it is important to say it.

I have one final point on the remit that is specific to clause 6. As was clear from last week’s evidence session, the domestic abuse commissioner has already taken initial steps in establishing a working relationship with the Welsh Government. Areas have already been identified where the domestic abuse commissioner is to work together with the Welsh Government, and there is a clear way for that to perhaps be formalised. Some of the issues of the additional areas of overlap will need to be managed. The Government have provided for the National Assembly for Wales to undertake appropriate scrutiny of how the commissioner’s office discharges its duties. However, we ask that the Bill is amended to give the commissioner a duty to consult with partners and agencies in Wales. I know that the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd seeks to do that with one of her amendments. That is very important.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hove has been over some of the issues of independence. What is obvious and appears to have been misjudged, I fear, is that for the commissioner to carry out her wide-ranging role effectively she must be independent. There is no question about that. As we have talked about in clauses 4 and 5, the Secretary of State determines the funding, the staff and the accommodation. I hear what the Minister says about how that will not affect the functions and independence of the commissioner, and I truly hope that that is the case. She alluded to the powers in her remarks on previous clauses: the Secretary of State has the ability to review annual reports and other reports made by the commissioner and to omit certain material. The “omit certain material” worries me, to be completely honest. What is it that we fear? Perhaps the Minister can give examples of what might we worry the commissioner would put into a review that the Secretary of State would wish to omit. The Secretary of State also has powers to approve any strategic plan made by the commissioner and agree any modifications with the commissioner. The Bill does not currently provide particularly well for any disagreement about how those functions might fall out.

The Minister has rightly said that the powers the commissioner will have in clauses 14 and 15 are pretty good—I would like some of those powers. The commissioner can demand an answer and actions from people, but what happens when it is the Home Office that the commissioner is critiquing for the way it has treated victims of violence against women and girls or of domestic abuse? That is, I fear, still the question.

The reality is that, in the functions the Home Office executes, I have seen practice that could definitely be called into question and reviewed by the commissioner. That does not necessarily involve the Ministers in front of me, but the reality is that there has been some bad practice. I worry about how that will work.

Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue at the heart of these clauses, and this clause in particular, is the commissioner’s independence and freedom to act? We heard evidence last week that that is a concern and that it would be helpful to have assurances from the Minister that the domestic abuse commissioner can in fact act independently and without fear of ministerial over-involvement, shall we say?

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

Absolutely. For us, for the commissioner, given her own evidence, and for the sector—for everybody —independence is the single most important thing we wish to see in this role. That is not unreasonable, as my hon. Friend pointed out. Where there is contention—I do not think there is any perception of any contention whatever in the current appointment—it can be used to undermine any report that that person had written. Let us imagine that one of these bodies had to look into a political party and that political party was found wanting. It would be easy for politics to then play the game where we say, “Well, they’re just your pals. You’re giving jobs to the boys.” That undermines the fundamentals of what these bodies are doing. Independence in every part of the commissioner’s function is vital. It is to protect their work so there is absolutely no conflict of interest with the Victims’ Commissioner, the Children’s Commissioner and the domestic abuse commissioner.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon makes an important point, and perhaps the Minister can answer this: who gets to decide if the commissioner should be sacked and should no longer be the commissioner? What grounds would they have to appeal that on? We all sit here with a weird employment status, in that we have no employment status. The people who employ me are the good people of Birmingham, Yardley, but they do not ever turn up to my 360-degree appraisals. No one is giving me the appraisal.

Let us say, for example, that there has to be an investigation by the commissioner into a report of practices by the Home Office regarding victims of domestic abuse, whether through its own policy on the matter or through other, adjoining policies, such as counter-terrorism or immigration. How can we make sure that the commissioner does not get sacked? If the Home Secretary were a Labour Home Secretary—I think this is a tool. With the recent stories, the Home Office has not necessarily been covering itself—

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

Order. I have been quite generous with time, but I have to ensure that Members do not stray from the terms of the Bill Committee.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

Okay. I just want to ensure that there is an independent process so that if there are problems, they can be solved. I close my remarks on that point.

The commissioner is a welcome position. Almost all the functions laid out in all parts of the Bill regarding the commissioner are to be welcomed and need little amendment. I commend the Ministers and the civil servants involved. I wish to seek some assurances specifically around the independence of the commissioner.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I do not propose to repeat what we have already said, because this theme runs through our discussions. We are conscious of the need for the commissioner not just to be independent, but to be seen to be independent. We have listened to the Joint Committee and its recommendations on this point.

Taking a step back, the Government cannot be accused of being shy of scrutiny on this Bill. The Bill, as published in its original iteration, was scrutinised by the Joint Committee. As those who have been in the House for a while know, that does not happen to every Bill; it is an unusual process. The reason we did that is precisely because we wanted to involve the House in the consideration of the draft Bill before it became the Bill that Parliament would consider formally.

Although politics has got in the way of the Bill’s progress, we have used those chapters in the Bill’s history to good effect, I hope. For example, since the second iteration of the Bill that came before the House, which managed to reach the first day of Bill Committee just before the General Election, we have been able to insert the duty on local authorities into the Bill. That would have had to be done by way of amendment.

We have changed parts of the Bill in relation to the role of the commissioner, because we listened to what the Joint Committee said. We also listened to what the previous Bill Committee said. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley referred in passing to the fact that the working hours of the commissioner have been changed. In consultation with the designate commissioner, we have extended her role from three days to four days a week, because she told us she was doing four days of work a week. We have listened to that and we have moved.

We also moved in relation to the Joint Committee’s recommendations about the laying of reports and strategic plans. In the original iteration, that was conducted through the Home Secretary. As happens with many reports, the report would be given to the Home Secretary and the Home Secretary would lay it before Parliament. We changed that in relation to reports and strategic plans so that the commissioner will lay them directly before Parliament, and she will choose the timing for doing so within the confines of the requirements of clause 12 in relation to strategic plans. We did that because we want her to be able to stand apart from Government and to lay her reports before Parliament as part of her role.

We have further amended the Bill to remove the requirements for the commissioner to submit strategic plans to the Home Secretary for approval. We have changed that so that the Home Secretary is simply consulted on them, and that is significant. I hope it reassures Bill Committee colleagues that, within the framework that we must have for any public role paid for through public funds—we have to have control and ministerial oversight—we have set that out in a way that safeguards independence. I hope people agree.

Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)

Clause 6(2) states:

“The things that the Commissioner may do in pursuance of the general duty under subsection (1) include… (g) co-operating with, or working jointly with, public authorities, voluntary organisations and other persons, whether in England and Wales or outside the United Kingdom.”

Does that include the commissioner working with organisations that are also within the United Kingdom but not in places specified in the Bill—in Scotland or in Northern Ireland?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

That is a very good point, and I am sure that I will have an answer to it very soon. My hon. Friend has highlighted what we have also tried to achieve in the Bill, which is to respect the devolution settlements we have with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Colleagues will know that the second iteration of the Bill had substantial parts dedicated to ensuring that victims of domestic abuse in Northern Ireland had the same protections as we have in England and Wales, but now that the Northern Ireland Assembly has been reinstituted, it has taken back responsibility and can deal with these issues in Northern Ireland, which is great news. I wish them Godspeed.

I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the incidental powers set out in clause 9, which states:

“The Commissioner may do anything which the Commissioner considers will facilitate, or is incidental or conducive to, the carrying out of the Commissioner’s functions.”

As an aside, the commissioner “may not borrow money”—that is very helpful. I feel that my hon. Friend’s point requires further reflection, and we will do that.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley is absolutely right to raise the point about sexual violence and rape. She is correct to say that this has been one of those knotty subjects where we have listened to a range of views. It was my great pleasure to almost respond on Second Reading to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who—I think it is probably fair to say—takes a different approach to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley on this matter. We have endeavoured to ensure the definition is gender-neutral, so that we capture victims regardless of gender, but in the statutory guidance we make it clear that it is a gendered crime, because we think that is an important part of the overall consideration of the legislation.

In terms of working with rape and sexual violence charities, the Victims’ Commissioner has responsibility for that. She is a formidable commissioner and does not hold back from establishing and proving her independence on a regular basis, for which we are most grateful. Taking a step back, the Victims’ Commissioner and designate domestic abuse commissioner clearly have a very good working relationship. They are both highly professional women. With the quality of people we appoint to commissioner roles—although personalities can be really positive and important—I would expect them to behave professionally with each other, and I have very much seen evidence of that. There may well be times when the Victims’ Commissioner and the DA commissioner join forces in drawing the Government’s attention to issues—they have done so in the last couple of months with the covid-19 crisis—and we welcome that. I hope that reassures hon. Members.

In terms of the advisory board—I apologise for the fact that I am jumping around—the advisory board is for the commissioner to appoint. I will step back from giving a suggestion of what she may or may not wish to do with that, because to do so would, I suspect, undermine all my previous arguments. It is for the commissioner to appoint, and she, I am sure, will be watching this line-by-line scrutiny very carefully. I suspect that the other points that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley raised fit more comfortably in our consideration of clause 7 and the amendments attached to it. If I may, I will hold my fire—that does not feel like a terribly consensual way of phrasing it; I will keep my powder dry instead—on that matter.

Reports

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

I beg to move amendment 43, in clause 7, page 5, line 7, leave out “direct” and insert “request”.

This amendment changes the Bill so that the Secretary of State may request, rather than direct, the Commissioner to omit material from a report.

Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 44, in clause 8, page 5, line 29, leave out “direct” and insert “request”.

This amendment changes the Bill so that the Secretary of State may request, rather than direct, the Commissioner to omit material from any advice.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

As the Chair said, I will speak to amendments 43 and 44, which relate to clauses 7 and 8. Right hon. and hon. Members will notice that both amendments achieve the same effect: to leave out the word “direct” and insert the word “request”. I do not think the intention of these amendments will come as any surprise. This strikes at the heart of the relationship between the commissioner and Government, and it is about ensuring that the much-vaunted independence of the commissioner, which everybody here accepts is incredibly important, translates into the document before us and into the legislation.

The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine is welcome to pass me notes at any point in my speech, should he have any comments on it, but I warn him that the Home Office knows where he lives, and we will be looking out for him in his place tomorrow. If he has any other insightful observations, he is very welcome to intervene at any point.

It is incredibly important that this role is functional; it has at its heart a functional relationship between the commissioner and Government, the commissioner and Parliament, and all three involved in overseeing, scrutinising and ensuring that, at the end of the day, policy for domestic abuse is got right. We need to ensure that we get the best out of all three constituent parts of this set of relationships, Parliament, Government and the commissioner.

The most important relationship here is clearly between Government and the commissioner. Time after time, we see words from Government that all of us in this room, and everybody involved on the frontline of supporting victims and survivors of domestic abuse would agree with: the commissioner must be independent. We need to ensure that that aspiration is reflected in the legislation, because ultimately it is the legislation that counts.

It is noticeable throughout clauses 7 and 8, and indeed throughout this part of the Bill, just how much power the Home Office grants itself over the commissioner. That is important, because we cannot have a situation where the commissioner is said to be independent but, when push comes to shove and people have to resort to the law, the law says something different.

Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as recently as this week, doubt about whether a review or report that comes before the public has been entirely independent has damaged its impact? I refer to the Public Health England review of coronavirus, public faith in which was undermined by the fact that sections of it had been left out. The word “direct”, rather than “request”, would inevitably lead people to suspect that reports were not entirely independent.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

I agree with what the hon. Lady says about that incident, because it is the one that is most recent, striking and relevant to the times in which we live. In order to ease the pressure on Ministers in the room, however, I am willing to concede that successive Governments of different persuasions have been guilty of that at various times. We can all think of reports that have become politicised, thereby diminishing the truth they seek to illuminate, their impact, their credibility and the work of the many people who were involved in producing them. It is incredibly important that the public who read such reports have faith in the independence of those who produce them, and know that the reports are free of political interference.

I do not seek to blame anyone, or to say that this is the first Government to have sought to retain power over quasi-independent bodies and institutions. I understand the desire of the Home Office and all Departments to retain power. I simply make the point that, sometimes, relinquishing some power strengthens relationships and leads to better outcomes. That certainly delivers better results to the frontline. Those who are at the receiving end—those who have recourse to the law and to the commissioner—will have more faith in the system and view it as more credible, and will therefore be more likely to use those services.

The Home Office sets the budget, and the Home Office sets the framework. Earlier, the Minister referred to the framework document and pointed to its consultative nature, which I accept. I have in front of me the draft framework document, which states in section 4.11:

“Although not prescribed by the Act, if the Commissioner does not agree with the Home Secretary’s request to omit material, the process will be as follows”—

this comes to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley when she talked about what happens if a dispute arises. I accept the Minister’s response, but the draft framework to which she refers states that the commissioner can make representations to the Director of Public Prosecutions—I beg your pardon; I mean public protection. Perhaps that comes further down the line. I will start again. The draft framework states:

“The Commissioner can make representations to the Director for Public Protection as the Senior Policy Sponsor. A response must be provided within 28 working days.”

That is what is available to the commissioner should there be a disagreement and if the Home Secretary makes a direction with which the commissioner disagrees. The draft framework states:

“If agreement is not reached with the Director for Public Protection, the Commissioner may make representations to the Home Secretary. A response must be provided within 28 working days.

If agreement is not reached with the Home Secretary, the Commissioner may include a note in their report (or advice under section 8(2)) stating that certain information was omitted at the direction of the Home Secretary, but which the Commissioner did not agree was necessary to protect an individual’s safety or to support the investigation or prosecution of an offence.”

What the framework document actually refers to is that bit of the Bill that enables the Home Office and the Home Secretary to direct the commissioner.

The commissioner also needs to submit all sorts of other material to the Home Secretary. For example, draft advice has to be submitted before publication, and other types of announcements need to be checked with the Home Secretary beforehand, but that does not seem to be covered by the draft framework. To be clear, although I understand that the draft document has been through consultation, the Bill says of it—I am looking at clause 10(1)—

“The Secretary of State must issue a document…that deals with matters relating to the Commissioner.”

At the end of the day, the power to direct what to include in the framework still rests with the Home Secretary, who also has the right to view guidance and reports before publication.

The draft framework document does not state, in those circumstances, what happens when there is disagreement between the two. When there is a disagreement that is covered by the draft framework, a period of 28 working days for a response is provided for, followed by another 28-day period in which to get a second opinion. In the meantime, victims and survivors of domestic abuse are out there in our society, in every single one of our constituencies, and they are affected by the advice given by the commissioner. We cannot have three or four months’ wait for a response while the to-ing and fro-ing between the Home Secretary, the Home Office and the commissioner is resolved. Often we would be talking just about a couple of words.

The process seems to be overly bureaucratic and disproportionate for the needs and desires expressed by the Home Office and Ministers—what they want to deliver, the intent of this legislation. In the strongest possible terms, I must state that there should not be a wait of almost 60 working days to resolve quite simple disputes.

The solution, to most reasonable people, if we have an independent commissioner who disagrees with the Home Secretary on something that is published in the independent commissioner’s name, is that the independent commissioner should have the final say on what goes—or we stop using the word “independent”. If the Home Secretary can direct the independent commissioner on what she can or cannot say, that cannot be classified as independent.

In several other areas, the Home Secretary and the Home Office have power to instruct the commissioner. Any disputes or disagreements then enter a very bureaucratic and time-inefficient process. I remind right hon. and hon. Members that I am seeking to change one word. This is not an amendment that is three pages long, impenetrable and difficult to interpret; this is one word—leave out “direct” and insert “request”. It inverts what is possible.

If it is okay in the eyes of the Home Office for the independent commissioner to put a bullet point at the bottom of a report to say, “I disagree with the Home Secretary on this, but I have been forced to say it,” why is the opposite not possible? Why is it not possible, given the might of the Home Office and the platform of the Home Secretary, for the commissioner to say, “I agree with 95% of this report, but I disagree with one paragraph”? Why does the Home Secretary always have to get the last word?

In this case, the Home Office just needs to be adult enough to accept that it would generate a lot more respect within the sector if it could just let go from time to time and allow the dissent that it says it encourages.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I can think of very few areas in which that will come up as a matter of dissent, so it appears that it can be only a fear of something that might make the Home Office look bad once we remove the option of protecting the identity of the victim and of what might be before the courts, understandably. It seems that it is only there to direct where the victim may have said something bad about the Home Office.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

indicated dissent.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

The Minister disagrees and her dissent to my hon. Friend’s comment is on the record. Whether one agrees or disagrees with my hon. Friend, her point is that it is open to interpretation. People in that situation who are observing from the outside could quite reasonably be left with that interpretation. The amendment actually seeks to protect the Home Office from precisely the circumstances to which she refers, because if the independent commissioner publishes advice that is hard for the Home Office to see, that will spark a public debate between the two that would benefit the sector and show that the independent sector has an independent commissioner, and that the Home Office takes a different view. The buck will always stop with the Home Office, and rightly so.

Clause 8(5) states:

“Before publishing any advice given under this section, the Commissioner must send a draft of what is proposed to be published to the Secretary of State.”

We all understand why that would be the case and why the Home Office would be very keen to engage in that, but if there is a functional relationship at the heart of this, we do not need the power of legislation to engage constructively with each other. From the testimony and the evidence that we heard just last week from the designate commissioner for domestic abuse, it is very clear that she is straining at the bit to be open and constructive, and to engage not just with the Home Office, but with Parliament and all other stakeholders. The Home Office does not need the power of legislation to instruct somebody to do the very thing that is at the heart of a functional relationship between two organisations of this nature.

I accept that the Home Office is cautious and that Home Office Ministers are right to be cautious. The Home Office deals with law enforcement and the denial of people’s liberty. That is why the Home Office always has to be very careful with such pieces of legislation, and I know that the two Ministers take incredibly seriously the responsibility and the burden of the decisions that are made in the name of the legislation that they pass and uphold in their work. The inclination to retain as much overall power as possible defeats some of the objectives that the Home Office seeks to achieve. Although it must be an overwhelming temptation—even for understandable reasons—I urge the Home Office to have faith in the people whom it appoints.

Because of the previous conversations and exchanges that we have had, I think that we have had some fascinating exchanges already in the proceedings on the Bill today, and I believe that the Minister has been very sincere in her determination as to the way the commissioner is appointed in future. But this is really important: if we are to take the Minister at her word, why does she need the power in legislation to have the final word all the time? If the person appointed has been through an inscrutable process within the Home Office and if their background is absolutely first rate, why does the Minister need the power always to instruct them, to direct them?

I believe that the person described in the appointment process is the sort of person who does not need to be kept on a tight leash and who would benefit from more freedom in the role. That is the sort of thing we could test in this legislation, and it would then have an impact on future appointments and the creation of other roles. I think that this role would be more fruitful, productive and effective if it were approached in a less paternalistic way.

When Nicole Jacobs’s appointment was announced last September, the Home Office statement heralded the role as one that

“will lead on driving improvements”.

Quite rightly, the designate commissioner’s qualifications to do just that were highlighted, and that speaks for itself. But time and again, the legislation that puts her role on a statutory footing limits the freedom that she has to do just that. Reading it, one would be forgiven for thinking that it is less a statutory footing and more a meddlers’ charter. The Home Secretary has the right to meddle in almost every aspect of the commissioner’s role, from the advice that is given publicly to the reports that are produced. For every aspect of the key work that is done by the “independent” commissioner, the Home Secretary, the Home Office and a plethora of officials at different levels have the right to involve themselves in the way the work is done. I do not think that is in line with what Ministers, in their hearts, really want to happen. I think they are saying that they want to have a certain relationship, but when it comes to defining it in law, they cannot quite bring themselves to put in writing what is in their heads and hearts.

Aspects of part 2 of the Bill give more power to the Home Secretary than to the commissioner herself, and part 2 is designed to create the commissioner. This is really serious: the moment a Home Secretary “directs” the commissioner, the commissioner ceases to be—in the words of the Home Secretary herself, in the statement released on the appointment—

“a voice for those who need it most.”

I say that because if the Home Secretary has changed the words that the independent commissioner uses, they are the words not of the independent commissioner but of the Home Secretary. That is the very moment at which the sector itself will start to lose faith. We will have a sector and victims and survivors losing faith in their voice, their advocate, the person who has the best access to Parliament, to Government and to every Department of Government, not just the Home Office—she has the right, under the Bill, to engage with Departments right across Government. Once faith in that role is gone, it will be very hard to get it back and the ability of the commissioner to advocate, to give voice and to bring about change will be diminished.

I do not believe that is what Ministers want, and I do not believe that is the intent of the legislation. I truly believe that what they want is a commissioner who has the right to act, in the words of the Home Secretary, as

“a voice for those who need it most.”

What we cannot do, as any parent knows—I am not a parent—is tell a child, “You have the right to a voice, but I’ll tell you what to say.” That just does not work. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley would not even attempt to do such a thing in her household—I have met her children and know that they would see straight through it.

Success or failure for the commissioner depends on the confidence she can generate and maintain in the complex stakeholder network among the domestic abuse community,

from campaign groups to frontline support agencies, enforcement bodies and the judiciary. Most importantly, she needs the confidence of victims and survivors. I know that Ministers want this role to be a success, and for all the right reasons. I hope that they will see that a little less control-freakery and a little more trust is likely to deliver that success.

Amendments 43 and 44 would simply substitute the word “direct” with “request”—nothing more. They would change neither the nature and outcome of the Bill, nor the role and function of the commissioner. They seek to level the relationship between the Home Office and the commissioner and foster a more functional partnership between all parties. Victims and campaigners would know that the commissioner speaks for them and them alone, and for their interests and their interests alone. I believe that is what the legislation should deliver.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I am going to tackle head-on the criticism about reports, but first I want to make it plain why the reports are so important and to explain how they come about. It is for the commissioner to decide what her reports concern. It is for the commissioner to publish every report that is made under clause 7. It is the commissioner who decides what she will report on. In practice, the reports will flow from the strategic plan set out in clause 12, but it is the commissioner who has that power.

These thematic reports will be an absolutely central part of the commissioner’s work. They will be the key mechanism for discharging the commissioner’s functions under clause 6, and they will identify and publicise good practice but also highlight areas for improvement. I emphasise again that the reports must be published. There is no facility in the Bill for reports to the swept under the carpet or delayed. The commissioner publishes them, not the Home Secretary. A great deal of the commissioner’s power comes from clause 7.

The hon. Gentleman quite rightly raises subsection 4, which states:

“The Secretary of State may direct the Commissioner to omit material from any report under this section before publication if the Secretary of State thinks the publication of that material—

(a) might jeopardise the safety of any person, or

(b) might prejudice the investigation or prosecution of an offence.”

There is nothing in subsection 4 that says, “Oh well, if the report makes the Government look bad, the Home Secretary can omit that.” There is nothing that says, “It’s not terribly helpful, and the timing is bad.” There are two very narrow grounds: jeopardising the safety of any person; and prejudicing the investigation or prosecution of an offence. Because we are so careful about the commissioner’s independence, we have taken the trouble in the draft framework document—the draft document drawn up in consultation with and approved by the commissioner—to try to set out a framework. Therefore, in the—I accept—diminishingly small possibility that the subsection will be used, there is a clear process as to how such disagreements can be resolved.

The ultimate sanction is not, I think, the Home Secretary redacting a name, a location or whatever is needed to protect the person named in the report; it is the last paragraph of the framework document, which says:

“If agreement is not reached with the Home Secretary, the Commissioner may include a note in their report…stating that certain information was omitted at the direction of the Home Secretary, but which the Commissioner did not agree was necessary to protect an individual’s safety or to support the investigation or prosecution of an offence.”

I do not want to speculate about how such circumstances may arise, but I am clear that if a report had a note like that in it, I would expect to be answering an urgent question on it the very next day.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

The Minister comes right to the heart of the matter, as she characteristically does. However, when she was having debates and discussions with officials and colleagues about how to approach this part of the Bill, why was it decided that the final say should stay with the Home Secretary, with the commissioner needing to publish a note saying that she disagrees, rather than the other way round, with the independent commissioner able to publish what she likes while the Home Secretary publishes a little paragraph pointing out the bit that she did not agree with?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

It comes down to accountability at the Dispatch Box. As I say, there is a diminishingly small likelihood of that happening, but that does not mean that we can ignore it. I speak as someone who used to prosecute serious organised crime and spent a great deal of my career as disclosure counsel redacting documents and asking for protection from courts for documents that may, or have the potential to, undermine and jeopardise the safety of people for a variety of reasons, so this is something close to my heart. The power to omit this very narrowly constructed category of information is there to protect a person or to protect the prosecution or investigation of an offence. Accountability for that must fall ultimately on the Home Secretary or the Minister at the Dispatch Box.

I will give an example. I have tried not to speculate, because we all know, particularly in this field, that the ability of human beings to commit harm and to hurt other human beings seems almost infinite at times. Apologies that I cannot give details; I am treading very carefully for reasons that will become clear. A little while ago I was alerted to a mother and her family who had had to flee a house where there was a violently abusive relationship—she was fleeing in fear of her life. The circumstances of her fleeing were, shall we say, notorious in the local community, because the wider family have a reputation and presence in the local community that reaches far beyond the Bill. A person in public life inadvertently, for completely innocent reasons, made a comment about the manner in which that family fled. The concern—it was a very real concern—was that that public official, who had not really understood the ramifications of their commentary, had inadvertently put that victim and her family at significant risk.

Forgive me; I cannot go into more detail because I do not want to alert, but I put that forward because there are occasions where we have to look at not just the immediate circumstances but the possible ever-flowing ramifications that may result from a seemingly innocent assertion. I have complete faith in the designate domestic abuse commissioner that we will not get to a place where we are having to put notes in reports. I have to maintain this very narrowly constructed caveat to this otherwise wide-ranging and free power to safeguard any people or to safeguard investigations or prosecutions for offences that may not be immediately apparent when looking at the very specific circumstances of a case.

To give reassurance as well, I have asked whether this provision is in other pieces of legislation. It is in the Modern Slavery Act 2015 and indeed, it is wider there because the Home Secretary can also omit material for the purposes of national security. If one thinks about modern slavery, that makes sense because of international criminal gangs. I reassure the Committee that this provision exists in other legislation, it is very narrowly defined there and it is not about making the Government look bad or look good. It is about safeguarding people’s safety.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

The Minister is incredibly reassuring on the point. With regard to the case she is talking about, I do not wish to gather any details. I have handled cases about misdemeanours of people in this place or of their friends, as we all know, and I seek similar reassurances that this power will never be used in a case that might be used to protect a friend of somebody in power or somebody in this place.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

The hon. Lady does not just need my reassurance. We have this framework—I appreciate it is a slightly tortuous process—where a very senior civil servant makes the first decision. It then goes to the Home Secretary and we then have the commissioner with the ability to put that note in the report. We have the reassurance of a very senior civil servant, with all the responsibilities the civil service bear in relation to ensuring they act within the Nolan principles and so on. We have that safeguard. We then have the Home Secretary, who has their own responsibilities under the ministerial code and being at the Dispatch Box, and then we have the commissioner being able to put that in her report. I hope that reassures hon. Members about this aspect of the report and clause 8. I invite the hon. Member for Hove to withdraw his amendment.

Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)

I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation. I will withdraw the amendment.

The Minister will note from the theme of the comments I have been making during the two sittings today that my Front-Bench colleagues and I are concerned not only by the specific parts of the Bill that give power to interfere with the commissioner’s work. Added up, there is the opportunity to make the commissioner’s work overly bureaucratic, slow and sometimes focused too much towards pleasing the paymaster and not enough towards serving the victims and survivors, for whom the commissioner exists to give voice. This was a good possibility to ventilate those in a focused way, but I hope the Minister realises that we feel strongly about the independence of the commissioner. We will talk about this more later, on other amendments on aspects of the commissioner’s independence.

I hope the Minister recognises the strength of feeling towards a hands-off approach. There was a period in Parliament when there was a very rapid turnaround in Ministers on the Front Bench. Time after time we heard, “I don’t want this to happen; my intention isn’t this.” Then three weeks later another Minister with another direction would say, “No, I am really focused on this.” That is why getting the letter of the law right is necessary, and why we need the Bill absolutely nailed down.

We talk about the relationship between the Home Secretary and the commissioner as if the relationship is between two people. The commissioner is likely to have two, three or four members of staff and the Home Office employs tens of thousands, so the relationship will be between one or two people and potentially dozens of others. What we want is a real grip at the centre and a real drive as the relationship goes forward to empowering and making sure they enable the independence rather than just putting it in writing. That said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Advisory Board

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I beg to move amendment 28, in clause 11, page 7, line 7, at end insert

“in England;

(aa) at least one person appearing to the Commissioner to represent the interests of victims of domestic abuse in Wales;”.

This amendment would require representation for domestic abuse victims in Wales, ensuring that both the interests of domestic abuse victims in England and Wales are equally addressed.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ms Buck. Amendment 28 would protect the interests of domestic abuse victims in both England and Wales as it recognises that the experiences and challenges faced by victims in both countries are in some respects different. It endeavours to smooth the jagged edge of the victim’s experience of justice in the context of devolution, as was mentioned earlier. The amendment calls for at least one person from Wales to be given a position on the commissioner’s advisory board in order to adequately address the specific concerns of domestic abuse victims in Wales. I note that it is the commissioner’s role to appoint board members. None the less, the Bill already specifies six roles of members, of which there are four that specify England. I also note the Joint Committee’s recommendation on a duty to consult, and Wales deserves a mention, given that there are so many other roles—six roles—already specifically mentioned, four of which specify England.

Although the designate domestic abuse commissioner has already done excellent work in co-operating with organisations in Wales, my amendment would formalise the relationship. I spoke earlier to the domestic abuse commissioner on this matter, and I welcome her actions so far. She has been in regular contact, as many of us are, with Welsh Women’s Aid and many other organisations on covid-19. She is intent on appointing a member of staff who will be able to specialise in Wales matters, but the specific point of ensuring a voice from victims ideally in Wales, but certainly a voice from Wales on the board, is critical, given that this is a piece of England and Wales legislation and we do, as we have already heard, have legislation specifically on this matter in Wales. I beg the Minister sincerely to consider putting this in the Bill, regardless of what she said previously about the commissioner’s role to appoint the board. It is specified for the other roles and it is becoming apparent that the interplay between England and Wales is quite complicated, so I think that for this to be effective Wales deserves representation to be specified on the board.

We also heard about the importance of differentiating our response to domestic abuse in both England and Wales from the CEO of Welsh Women’s Aid, Sara Kirkpatrick, in last Thursday’s evidence session. She rightly pointed out that clarity is incredibly important in the context of devolution, especially when it comes to understanding what funding is devolved and what is not, and how services are then actually available. That can have an impact on survivors and victims in Wales.

Ms Kirkpatrick made the point that Wales is physically different from England, in that our population overall is more rural. We must therefore provide frontline services to victims of domestic abuse that are adapted to the specific nature and geography of rural communities. I say that representing a constituency such as Dwyfor Meirionnydd, in which we do not even have a court any longer. The nearest court can be 60 miles away from people; I know that will be true for other Members here. That is the true experience for people on the ground in Wales, particularly those who are distanced from the southern, urban areas. Welsh Women’s Aid published a brief in the last month on rurality and domestic abuse, which includes a significant analysis of specific issues faced by survivors in rural communities in Wales.

I am aware that time is going by, so I will touch on some points, in part to have them on the record but also to reflect the fact that Wales has specific issues. The first point is that services are not always available to Welsh speakers through the medium of their first language. Particularly in my constituency, many service users who come into contact with public services are used to receiving their services through the medium of Welsh. It is a matter of rights for the individual, but it is also what people expect day to day. That is a significant area and evidently unique to Wales.

I will touch briefly on the matters that came up in the Welsh Women’s Aid report, “Are you listening and am I being heard?”. On the ability of survivors to access and engage with services, there is a fear within rural areas that if people gain access to services where they may well know the people who are providing them, they do not know how confidential those are likely to be. That in itself creates a reluctance to come forward to people such as the local police officer, the GP, court officials and other community leaders. If people are reluctant to come forward, how do we overcome that in a way that is accessible to them?

I touched on the matter of courts. Public transport issues are also a real issue in areas of Wales. In this age of digital by default, broadband access in certain areas of rural Wales is also patchy.

Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I sympathise with many of the points the right hon. Lady is making, but some of the areas and obstacles that she has highlighted are issues that are relevant in England and Scotland. Why is the experience of a Welsh victim so singularly different, when those characteristics are the same in England, Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom?

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Indeed. The experience of rurality will be common across other nations of the United Kingdom, but overlying that is the fact that we have a separate legislature in Wales that is producing separate legislation. We want to make sure that with the different range of provision, interested bodies and services providers, we are none the less cutting through to survivors, victims and perpetrators, in the way that is intended, and that the fact that we have a difference between England and Wales is not missed out. If we can specify four roles on the board for specifically English aspects, I cannot imagine the justification for Wales not to be represented there as well, with its separate legislation.

In the report. points are made about hospital services being provided at a distance, as well as legal practice and provision. The reality of the experience of survivors is that access to legal services is more challenging in Wales than in many areas of England, for no specific reason, as is access to services for survivors who have fled from abusive relationships and been placed in rural areas. This is often combined with the fact that survivors do not know the community around them, and that certain properties will be known to be places where survivors are placed. We have to be very careful how we handle that.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I am not sure whether this is just by virtue of Birmingham being relatively near Wales, but in refuge accommodation services the connection between women moving across borders between Wales and Birmingham services is very common, for example women from Cardiff or Swansea were crossing the border to be housed in Birmingham and vice versa for safety reasons. I am sure that is one of the right hon. Lady’s concerns: how we can ensure this all works well together.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Without mentioning them, there are certain communities in my constituency where private landlords are very inclined to take people in from public service sources in England, and from those individuals’ experience, they are used to one set of services being available to them in one place, and they find themselves receiving an entirely different set of services, often with their children going into Welsh medium education, in another. Survivors have to undertake the experience of that difference.

I am grateful for the opportunity to explain some of the experiences and scenarios on the ground in my own constituency and other places in Wales, but the fundamental thing that is crying out to be remedied here is the fact that it is possible for this legislation to specify certain roles on the advisory board. Alongside the fact that the Joint Committee recommended that consultation be undertaken with Wales, I beg the Minister to consider that it would be deeply appropriate to include Wales in this, because, otherwise, we will set the domestic abuse commissioner up to be falsely accused of not taking into consideration aspects that we have considered in this place, and this would be an obvious remedy to do that. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)

I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for her contribution, which I support. I am always one for standing up and giving a voice to Wales and I feel that Wales desperately needs a voice in the Bill, which straddles both nations and they should be equally represented.

One in four women in Wales experience domestic violence at the hands of a partner in their lifetime. They need a voice on this advisory board too. We have seen the ground-breaking legislation in Wales. Thanks to the Welsh Labour Government, we have the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. We have already discussed the importance of the legislation aligning with the devolved Government, so that we do not have any gaps and inconsistencies, which people can fall through.

It is vital that Wales has a voice and is represented. We know that the domestic abuse commissioner has an effective consultative remit with survivors and services in Wales, to ensure there is an understanding of the context as to how devolved and non-devolved competency areas interact, but this must be done effectively to ensure that the board has representation from Wales, so that non-devolved survivors and services are given that voice. Currently the Bill only allows representation for voluntary organisations in England and that must be changed. I fully support this amendment and I urge members across the House to do so. I know there are hon. Members from Wales who would want Wales to be represented at all levels in the Bill, so I urge them to support this amendment.

Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)

I wonder about specific issues that this Bill—perhaps not yet, but potentially—covers, such as welfare and immigration. We heard from the commissioner herself that an onus was put on what she would be expected to do around the issue, specifically, of migrant women. Obviously, that does not sit within the remit of the Senedd, so there is a vital need for Wales to have representation.

Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)

Absolutely. There definitely needs to be a cohesive relationship between the Senedd, the UK Government and the commissioner to ensure that all gaps are filled and that nobody falls through the gaps, in terms of competency of what is devolved and what is not, so I absolutely would support that.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I thank the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd for standing up for Wales. I do not want to get into a comparison of rural areas, but I do not have a court in my constituency either, nor do I have any train line, but that is a campaign for my constituency—other than the Lincolnshire Wolds steam railway, I should say.

I quite understand why the right hon. Lady has raised this, and I hope that she is reading particularly clause 11(4); she will see that we have been meticulous in respecting the devolution settlement in Wales and drafting the membership accordingly. The reason subsection (4)(b) refers to

“charities and other voluntary organisations that work with victims of domestic abuse in England”,

is that we respect that under the devolution settlement Wales is able to do, and indeed is doing, so much to look after its own victims. The same goes with healthcare services and social care services in England; they are specified precisely because of the devolution arrangements.

We have been very sensitive to the wish of the Welsh Government to continue their own programmes of work on this—indeed, the right hon. Lady has set out some of them—so we have been clear that the commissioner’s remit in Wales is restricted to reserved matters such as policing and criminal, civil and family justice. The membership of the advisory body, as set out in subsection (4), reflects the division of responsibilities.

However, in addition to seeking advice from the advisory board, the commissioner is not prevented from consulting Welsh bodies, whether devolved or not, to learn from their experience or to conduct joint work. I welcome that sort of co-operation and I expect the commissioner to work closely with the Welsh Government’s national advisers.

Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)

It is important to bear in mind that the designate commissioner last week made clear her intention to work hand in hand with the Welsh Government. I think she told us last week that she speaks to them on a weekly basis. That is evidence that we must bear in mind of the way in which we can work so closely together.

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is about respecting the devolution settlement and being alive to different approaches that each may take, while also supporting each other and co-ordinating work. I hope that explains why the compulsory membership of the board is set out as it is. Of course, the commissioner can appoint up to four members outside that list, and I trust her good judgment to get the balance right. I reflect on the fact that we have been having conversations about how independent the commissioner must be, and we have tried in to keep that balance right.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Will the Minister consider the risk of being open to the accusation that victims in Wales therefore have no voice with the domestic abuse commissioner?

Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)

I think that would be very unfair on the commissioner. Let us not forget that, alongside the advisory board, the commissioner will be required to establish a victims and survivors advisory group. That is in the terms and conditions of her employment, and it is left to the commissioner to draw the group together herself. Again, I am sure she is watching these scrutiny proceedings very closely, and she will have listened to that concern.

I will draw back from making any requests or directions of the commissioner in that regard, but she has been clear throughout this process that she is keen to respect devolution, but also to work closely with the Welsh Government and Welsh national advisers where it is appropriate and possible to do so. As I say, given that there is the flexibility, given that we have heard from the commissioner herself about her intentions and given that she is required to establish a victims and survivors advisory group, I hope that the concerns expressed by the right hon. Lady will be allayed.

Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

I will withdraw the amendment for now, but I will hope to raise this further with the Minister in future. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Written evidence reported to the House