Domestic Abuse Bill
Public Bill Committee, 4 June 2020.
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Before we begin, I have a few points that we always make. First, please put your devices on silent. Secondly—a rule that I never understand—you cannot have tea or coffee in here, on the grounds that they are supposed to be hot drinks. I would argue that it will have gone cold, but you still cannot have it. Obviously, I stress the importance of social distancing in the Committee Room. If at any time you feel that the social distancing is incorrect, let me know and we will take action.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
You will be flat on the floor, if the Government have anything to do with it.
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
I will not be heckled—this is the easy bit.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 11.30 am on Thursday 4 June) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Thursday 4 June;
(b) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 9 June;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Wednesday 10 June;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 11 June;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 16 June;
(f) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Wednesday 17 June;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
TABLE
Date
Time
Witness
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 12.30 pm
Nicole Jacobs, Designate
Domestic Abuse
Commissioner
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 1.00 pm
Southall Black Sisters
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 2.15 pm
Latin American Women’s
Rights Service
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 2.45 pm
Somiya Basar; Saliha Rashid
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 3.15 pm
Women’s Aid Federation of England;
End Violence Against
Women Coalition
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 3.45 pm
Refuge; SafeLives
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 4.15 pm
Hestia; Gisela Valle, Step Up
Migrant Women UK
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 4.30 pm
Dame Vera Baird QC,
Commissioner for Victims
and Witnesses
Thursday 4 June
Until no later than 5.00 pm
Local Government
Association;
Welsh Women’s Aid
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 37; Schedule 1; Clauses 38 to 62; Schedule 2; Clauses 63 to 73; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(4) the proceedings on the Bill shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Thursday 25 June.
I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, alongside my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, the co-Minister for this important piece of legislation. We want to get on and hear the evidence from our commissioner, the first witness, so I will be brief. The motion provides the Committee with sufficient time to scrutinise this landmark Bill. I welcome the fact that it will enable us to hear evidence from 14 witnesses, including survivors of domestic abuse, so I invite the Committee to agree it.
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Examination of Witness
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
We will now hear oral evidence from the designate domestic abuse commissioner. Thank you very much for coming today.
Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and we must stick to the timings in the programme order. The Committee has agree that, for this session, we have until 12.30 pm.
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Before I call the first Member, Jess Phillips, to ask a question, I remind the witness that this is the only time that Ministers have fun in the whole of this process. They get to ask questions too.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Hello, Nicole, and welcome to our slightly weird distanced Committee. Some of my other colleagues will talk to you specifically about the role, the role of the Bill in creating it and some of those other areas, so I want to ask you more broadly about the Bill.Q
We keep hearing Ministers say, “We will be asking the commissioner to do a review of this, looking at different ways in which there might be a postcode lottery in the country for this, that and the other,” so that is expected to be part of your role. What do you think the Bill does well for the sustainability of services for victims and perpetrators of domestic abuse, and where do you think the main gaps are?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I just want to pick up on that issue of the postcode lottery, which is potentially not harmed in the Bill but is not catered for in the Bill. In a situation where a child is a victim of domestic abuse directly or lives every day with their mother being raped, beaten and abused in front of them, are you confident that, if the child were to come forward, there would be specialist support—or any support—for that child, no matter where they stood up in the country?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q In the follow-up to the Joint Committee on the previous Bill in a previous Parliament—it looks pretty similar to this Bill in this Parliament, so we will assume it is the one for this Bill—the Government came back and said they felt that, in the wider context of abusive behaviour towards a victim under the age of 16, it would be deemed child abuse and the extra support would come through social services. Is that a picture of our country that you recognise?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q On the gaps that you alluded to with regard to migrant women, migrant victims and migrant children, and to British children who are the children of migrant victims, you said that the Bill did not currently do enough to help them. Could you please expand on that?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q I wanted to clarify that the women—I am assuming they were largely women—who you talk about that came to you, and the people I am talking about, are here in this country completely legally.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Absolutely. I want to finish by talking about the gap you identified around perpetrator services. The Bill has wide-ranging changes with regard to domestic violence protection orders and other such issues. Is there a particular area of the Bill that you think needs to be more robust about how we manage the postcode lottery of perpetrator services?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Would it be pointless to have a Bill that makes ways for domestic abuse protection orders to exist if, in your local area, there is not a service that would be accredited, by some standard that does not currently exist?
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
I want to comment on a few things that you said in response to Jess’s questions. A lot of the things you are saying about the DAPOs will obviously come into the statutory guidance. It is important to remember that there are things in the Bill, but the statutory guidance will be the backup, and I suspect a lot of your concerns will be addressed by that guidance. When you talk about community-based services, are you talking about the charitable sector—the third sector—or are you talking about local government? In local government, there is an ability to offer a lot of domestic abuse services, but some councils do not choose to. What is your definition of community-based services?Q
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
We will now have Peter Kyle, followed by Virginia Crosbie and Liz Twist. The Ministers have indicated that they want to ask you some questions, but I will try to save them to the end and get the Back Benchers in first.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Thank you, Mr Bone, and thank you, Nicole, for coming in; we all greatly appreciate it. The issue of domestic abuse has had strong advocates in Parliament for a long time, and it Q has had strong advocates in the Home Office, politically and in the civil service, for a long time. Why is it that you need to act independently of these institutions in order to be effective?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q So independence impacts the way you do your job, but presumably it also impacts the way you are perceived by the people for whom you advocate. Abuse victims and survivors need to see you as fully independent from Government and Parliament.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q So if the Home Office was seen to be directive over you, directing your activities, or meddling in the work that you do, would that undermine your credibility in the eyes of victims and survivors?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q But there are certain areas of the Bill where the Home Secretary can direct you. The Home office sets your budget, the Home Office sets the framework that you follow, and the Home Office has the power—or the right—to look at your advice before it is published, and presumably to comment on it. In a productive, functional relationship that is co-operative, which is how you said you want to approach the job, that seems fine. However, should that become dysfunctional at any point, there is the power within the law to be quite assertive over you.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q That is entirely plausible, because you have here two of the most reasonable Ministers that I could ever imagine. You are very popular. The Joint Committee recommends that you should report to the Cabinet Office, the Home Affairs Committee believes that you should report to Parliament, and the Home Office will not let go of you at any cost, so you are very popular—as an institution and as a commissioner—before you have even been established. Do you have a view on any of those things, or do you believe that it is our business to try to sort that out for you?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q I have one final question—forgive me for hurrying along; we only have a short amount of time to do this—about cross-examination, which is obviously a very important part of the Bill. Do you believe that what is in the Bill achieves the purpose of giving victims and alleged victims of domestic abuse adequate protection against the possibility of continued abuse via direct cross-examination?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Thank you. A number of Members have caught my eye, starting with Virginia Crosbie, then Liz Twist, Alex Davies-Jones, Liz Saville Roberts and Mike Wood, and of course the Minister will want to ask questions. I can see what the problem is going to be: we only have less than 15 minutes. Could we bear that in mind and perhaps have brief questions and answers? It is always a problem in these sessions.
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Thank you for coming in, Nicole. I have two quick questions. You mentioned working with charities, and my question is on collaboration. In terms of working with the third sector, I have Gorwel in my constituency of Ynys Môn, which is a great domestic abuse charity. It has been very helpful in giving me lots of background information and very supportive in the community. How do you as a commissioner see yourself working with the third sector to make sure it has a voice?Q
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Q How do you see your role working with the Welsh Government advisers and the other commissioners—the Victims’ Commissioner and the Children’s Commissioner?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
I have a few short questions. What is your view on the inclusion of children in the Bill’s definition? Is that desirable?Q
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q There is a suggestion that that issue would be covered in the guidance. Have you seen the final guidance?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q Finally, on the issue of community-based services, do you think that authorities and organisations will see looking after children in community services as a lesser responsibility if it is not in the definition?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
I will now call Alex Davies-Jones. She is about to make history, because I do not think we have ever had a Member speak from the Public Gallery before. I hope it is okay under these unusual circumstances. I ask the witness not to turn to face the Member, but to speak into the microphone, and if possible to frame your answer so that we can understand the question as well.
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Thank you, Chair. I am never one for being quiet, so I think my voice will carry. I want to ask about the impact of the coronavirus and whether you think that has any implications. What can we learn from the impact of the pandemic that can help the Bill?Q
Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
One of the things I was very glad happened in the Joint Committee was the recognition of the fact that there is different legislation in Wales. There are also different third-sector organisations and a different arrangement with local authorities. There have been initial steps in your work in relation to the Welsh Government. You have been talking about cross-Government working. How do you see that developing in future? We have this divergence between England and Wales, and yet your role is equally important across both countries. How do you ensure that you are getting a voice back from Wales, to influence you at the heart of what you do?Q
Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
Q Is there any formal arrangement between you and the Welsh Government to report back on their strategy as well?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Thank you. I think Mike Wood has kindly given up his slot because of the time restraints. I have Julie Marson first, then Christine Jardine and then the Minister. It might be an idea to stand up at the back.
Julie Marson (Conservative, Hertford and Stortford)
I am interested in your views on the impact of having a statutory definition of domestic abuse for the first time. Also, can you give your views of your relative powers compared with some of the other existing commissioners, such as the Victims’ Commissioner or the Children’s CommissionerQ ?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
I am sorry to interrupt. I am conscious of the lack of time, so I am going to move on to Christine Jardine.
Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West)
I will be very brief. I want to follow up on the question on Wales. What sort of a relationship are you developing with Scotland, because much of this is devolved there as well? Do you feel there is a need for a formal relationship with the devolved AuthoritiesQ ?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
I will have to apologise to Members who have not been able to get in. You have been an excellent and very clear witness. There are lots more questions, but I am afraid we are bound by the time limits, so I have to call this session to an end. Thank you very much indeed. We move on to the next session.
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from the Southall Black Sisters. I am very grateful that our witness sat through the first session, so I will not repeat all the information about social distancing and the fact that Members are sitting behind you, as you have heard that. I would be very grateful if you could introduce yourself.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Hello, Pragna. Thank you for coming in today in these slightly strange circumstances.
For a number of years, this Bill has been getting to the point where we are sitting here today. Organisations like yours, Southall Black Sisters, are run for and by migrant women and black and minority ethnic women. Could you estimate how many hours you have spent trying to help build the Bill, working with the Government and advocating in meetings in this House? How many hours do you think you have spent asking for things to be in this Bill for migrant women and victims of domestic abuse?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Could you briefly, in one line, set out what exactly you—not just you, but organisations like yours and lots of more generic organisations—have been asking to be put in the Bill?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So after all those hours of work and, I believe, two reviews—please correct me if I am wrong—on migrant women, with one completed and one not completed, do you see any of your work written on the face of the Bill in front of us?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Just so that people can hear this, if a victim comes forward who is working in, let us say, a hospital and has no recourse to public funds, would she be able to easily access a refuge bed for her and her children in any local authority area?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Have you ever met any women in that circumstance who have children—let us discount single victims at this point—and who have been told that they would have their children removed from them? Obviously, local authorities have a duty to provide, under section 17 of the Children Act, for every child who comes forward. Have you ever seen circumstances in which women have been told that their children will be removed because the women have been victims of domestic abuse?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q This is my final question. If it was written into the Bill that victims of domestic abuse who have no recourse to public funds, regardless of their status, were able to access welfare, security and support from any agency, would that save people’s lives?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
I am going to call the Minister next, and then I will go to Peter Kyle and then Mike Wood.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Good morning. You agree that the Government need clear data and evidence in order to create meaningful and effective policies to help those incredibly vulnerable women.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q That was my next question: we have asked you to help us with this evidence, haven’t we? We have given you £250,000 through the tampon tax fund and a further £1 million to build on that work. Against that background, could you please help us by telling us how many victims you have helped through the tampon tax fund?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
How many victims?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Is it fair to say that a high proportion of those 500 women were eligible for support under the destitute domestic violence concession?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
So 250 of the 500 were eligible, but 250 were not—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Of the 250 who were not eligible, how many of the cases were complex and would have needed more than three months under the DDVC arrangements, and how many times have you asked for the DDVC time limit to be extended?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Fair enough, but of the 250—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Fair enough. How many of the 250 women who were not eligible under DDVC could have sought help from other sources of Government support, including, for example, the national referral mechanism, having been trafficked and—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I appreciate that incredibly vulnerable victims of human trafficking living in abusive households may not know that the NRM exists, but of course, the role of charities is to signpost them to that system where they get support.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
I am not saying that; I am just asking for your findings.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q The reason I am asking these questions is to understand the evidence base we have at the moment. We are very grateful for the work you have done, but at the moment, the evidence base consists of a few hundred cases. They are compelling, complex cases, but to create a national policy, would you not agree that we need more evidence to ensure that the policies we are creating will help those women most in need? For example, the three-month DDVC extension may not help some of the women who you have just described.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Let’s not speculate about the pilot project—
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Minister, I must apologise, but I can see what will happen if I do not stop you—I will not get the other Back-Bench Members in. This always happens. I apologise to the witness. We could do a two-hour session, but we only have half an hour, so—
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Am I allowed one more question? Do you welcome the pilot project, and the money that we are investing in trying to help?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
Thank you. I am going to change the order slightly, because Mr Wood kindly gave up his slot last time. Mike, I will come to you now, if that is okay.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Dudley South)
I shall be brief, because time is short. Turning specifically to the Bill, what benefits do you see the domestic abuse commissioner being able to deliver for migrant women who are victims of domestic abuse?Q
Mike Wood (Conservative, Dudley South)
What benefits of the role of the domestic abuse commissioner, as it has been set out in the framework document, do you see being available for migrant victims of domestic abuse?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Dudley South)
Q On the statutory definition, do you think that the definition within the legislation is the right one?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q Reading your evidence last night, one can sense the weariness of the frequency with which you have had to feed information in for a very long time. This is a fresh opportunity. I am sorry if it feels repetitive to you. There are many of us who are trying to do justice by some of the work and experience you have had.
In your written evidence and in your verbal evidence today you say that the pilot will cover support for about 130 to about 150 women. How many women will be left out from that? How many people are we talking about in general, in total?
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
A few moments ago you said that you wanted a gendered definition of domestic abuse. I completely understand that everybody acknowledges that the overwhelming number of victims of domestic abuse are women and that is tragic. Are you not worried that, in doing that, we would actually overlook and possibly leave behind some male sufferers of domestic abuseQ ?
Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)
I am afraid we have run out of time. Thank you for being an excellent witness.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Before we start, I have just a couple of points. I am reliably informed that the disinfectant used in the room and around the horseshoe lasts for 30 days —I say that for the greater comfort of Members. Just as a reminder, it would help Hansard if everyone, particularly those not round the horseshoe, speaks very loudly and clearly so that they can be heard. I can hardly see the end of the room, so will anybody who is trying to participate make sure they are indicating very clearly? One witness, Suzanne Jacob from SafeLives, will be joining by audio link, so there may be a moment or two getting that set up.
We are now going into the first panel of witnesses for the afternoon. We are hearing oral evidence from the Latin American Women’s Rights Service. The witness will be brought in now, and we will have until 2.15 pm for this session.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q 44 Thank you very much for coming in to give evidence this afternoon. Could you introduce yourself to the Committee? Then we will allow people to ask questions of you.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Thank you very much for introducing yourself.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Thank you very much for coming in. I am just going to ask you a few questions about your experiences of the system. What are the main barriers that you have faced in getting the support that you may have needed?Q
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Tell us a little about your experiences and what led you to need to report.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Where did you come from?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q When you came over, what visa did you come in on?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q But you came to the country completely legally?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Tell us about how you tried to get help when your abuse started to happen in the UK.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
The threats?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Just so that we have the story right, you came here with a partner who had promised you that you would settle here and that your status would become settled. He began to abuse you. He settled his status and the status of your daughter, then he used the fact that you were unsettled to abuse you and control you.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
What happened when you tried to get help?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
You take as long as you need.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Who said that to you?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So you went as a victim of domestic abuse and the police told you that there would be no accommodation for you and that, because your status was unsettled, you actually now had to just go to your embassy, even though you had reported to them as a victim of violence.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
To go home to Brazil?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Sleeping rough?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Jess, I have a few more Members. Do you mind if I see a couple of others and return to you?
Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West)
Actually, before I say anything, I would like to hear the witness continue to respond to hon. Members. Her story is important, and it is important that we hear it.Q
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q We only have a short space of time, and we need to make sure that those of us who have to scrutinise the Bill get the message about what needs to change in it. So you had to sleep rough in London—is that what you are saying?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
So you slept rough with your children?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
How old is your child?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Was that because you were not able to access any support because of your immigration status?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
So you were left to sleep rough on the streets of London. I will let other people come in; I just wanted to set the scene.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
This will have to be the last question.
Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West)
Q Now your situation has changed. Would it have been different if you had had recourse to public funds, and do you now have recourse to public funds?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Order. I am really sorry, but that has brought us to the end of this session. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you very much for coming in and giving your evidence. I know it is difficult in such a constrained time, but you gave the Committee a lot of helpful information. Thank you.
Examination of Witnesses
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Thank you very much for joining us. We will now hear oral evidence from Somiya Basar and Saliha Rashid. We have this session until 2.45 pm. Please introduce yourselves, and then I will invite members of the Committee to ask you questions.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Saliha, if you feel able to, please tell us about your experiences as a female victim of domestic abuse, but also with your blindness.Q
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you. The Women’s Aid campaign is a great campaign, so I am pleased to hear that you are part of it. If you are familiar with the contents of the Bill, what do you think the domestic abuse commissioner can do to help women in your position?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Just to finish up with Saliha, through your campaigning do you think that, at the moment, in different areas—you can probably only talk about your own local authority area—there are enough specialist services available for victims with disabilities?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Would you support some sort of ring-fencing of these sorts of specialisms being written into the law, to ensure that they are provided?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Thank you very much. Now I am going on to Somiya. Thank you very much for coming in. I have read a little bit about the story of your children and about your travels around the world to try to get back access to your children. Can you tell us about that as briefly as you can—not necessarily from the beginning, but from when you found yourself in Britain. Your ex-partner is a British citizen—is that correct?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q And so are your children, so your children are now British citizens. What is your immigration status?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q But you came to this country because your children had been brought here from South Africa—is that correct?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Your children have been brought here from South Africa. Do you currently have access to your children?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q If you do not mind my asking—please feel free to say if you do not want to answer any of the questions I ask—did you suffer violence and abuse at the hands of your ex-partner?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Do you think that it is common for women in your situation to stay in a marriage?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Now that you are here in Britain, you have limited access through the family courts, presumably, to your children. You are fighting your immigration status. How long have you been in the immigration system, if you do not mind me asking?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q When you have interacted with services in the United Kingdom, do you feel that they understand the issue of abandonment across borders? I am afraid that I have seen lots of cases of women abandoned as part of the pattern of domestic abuse, and their children removed. Do you think there is any understanding of you as a victim of domestic abuse?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q In this country you are currently entitled to support through a pilot scheme that was funded through Southall Black Sisters, but you are not entitled to any other support.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Are you currently expected to pay any premium to use the health service?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Do your children have access to any support about the situation that they have been in throughout their childhood? You might not know, but are they able to get any support through their schools?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Thank you for sharing your story with us.
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Thank you for sharing your story. I am sure it is very difficult having to keep repeating your story, but thank you. It is very powerfulQ .
You have obviously been getting help from the Southall Black Sisters, which is good to hear. Have they or anybody else referred you to the national referral mechanism, which is for victims like you?
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Q But you do not think you have been referred.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Thank you for coming today. As an individual, as a mother to British children and as a victim, have you at any point felt that the British Government and the British state is on your sideQ ?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Thank you. Saliha, do you have anything to add on that same point?Q
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
You say that you have been failed by the system, but could you give us some specific areas where the system does not actually exist for you? You cannot be failed by a system that you do not have access to. In some areas you have no recourse to public funds. In that situation, the system does not fail you; the system does not exist for you. Is that the right way of looking at itQ ?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q Saliha, you heard the previous question from my colleague about referred services. Since you advocate for other people as well, is it your experience that referred services are available, accessible and easy to obtain for people in your situation and the people you represent?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
I have Mike Wood, Virginia Crosbie and Andrew Bowie, unless anybody else wants to ask questions, and we have nine minutes, just to give you a guide for how long to make your questions.
Mike Wood (Conservative, Dudley South)
I will keep my question very short. Somiya, given your terrible experiences, what would you like to see the new domestic abuse commissioner do to ensure that the voices of survivors of domestic abuse are brought to the front of how we respond to that challengeQ ?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Dudley South)
Q On the specific point about the independent commissioner to lead on and tackle domestic abuse right across the country, what impact do you think having that kind of independent person established within this legislation will have?
Mike Wood (Conservative, Dudley South)
Sorry. The legislation we are considering would create a new independent office of domestic abuse commissioner, whose role is obviously to lead, to co-ordinate and to be an independent voice separate from Government Departments, working with charities, survivors and other interested parties. How do you think that role could also be used to ensure that the voices of survivors are heard more effectively than perhaps they have been in the past?
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Thank you both for coming here today; you are both incredibly brave. I wanted to ask Somiya how she heard about Southall Black Sisters.Q
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Q How did the family law firm find you?
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Q This question is to both of you. Knowing what you know now, what advice would you give to other women in a similar situation?
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Q What advice would you give them?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
That is a very good note on which to end this session. We are almost at the end of it anyway, so I thank both of this session’s witnesses very warmly on behalf of the Committee. As has been said, coming to give personal testimony of this kind is a very brave thing to do, so we really do appreciate it. Thank you very much. We will move on to the next session.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q We will now hear evidence from the Women’s Aid Federation of England and the End Violence Against Women Coalition. We are grateful to our two witnesses. Once you are ready, will you introduce yourselves to the Committee? I will then ask members of the Committee to ask you questions.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Thank you. We have until 3.15 pm for this session.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Welcome, both; it is good to see you. Could you give us your view on the Bill and, in particular, how you think the domestic abuse commissioner will be able to help your organisations help survivors?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you; that is helpful. I did not get a chance to ask the commissioner this, but are you aware of her plans, once we pass the Bill, to map community-based services across the country so that she has the powers to do so? Presumably you welcome that.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I will ask just one more question, because I know other colleagues will want to take this up. What are your thoughts on the use of domestic abuse protection orders to help survivors, stop perpetrators and stop the cycle of abuse?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Of course, a key difference between these new orders in the Bill and other orders is that if you breach the order, that is a criminal breach.
Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
To what degree or does this actually do what is required for the Istanbul convention? If it does, great. If not, what needs to be done?Q
Christine Jardine (Liberal Democrat, Edinburgh West)
Q Can you tell us how important you think it might be for victims to have access to local authority welfare schemes? Also, do you think the definition of domestic abuse should apply only to those over 16? Please give a reason for your answer.
Julie Marson (Conservative, Hertford and Stortford)
As a former magistrate in domestic abuse courts, I have seen women suffer in court and have more trauma imposed on them. How do you feel about the new measures to prevent cross-examination in family courts and to ensure that we can get special measures? How important do you think they are?Q
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
We were talking about children and the definition. It seems that both organisations accept that children can be victims, as well as observers. Is that correctQ ?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q But the concern is about criminalisation. Will you tell us a little more about that, and are there ways to work around it?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Yes.
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q There are a number of issues here, are there not? One is the issue of under-16 relationships, and clearly that is a real concern, but there is also the issue of how we best protect children who live in a household where there is domestic abuse. They might not only observe that, but feel the direct impact of it. How can we best protect those children, their rights and their access to services?
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Could you outline for us the role that the domestic abuse commissioner will have in helping the court service to understand domestic abuse?Q
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Lots of my questions have been answered. I used to work for the same organisation, so I know that Lucy works with organisations that work with victims of modern slavery. Andrea, do you work with any such organisations, or have any knowledge of modern slavery?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Have you ever dealt with the national referral mechanism?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Me also, many, many times, when I worked for the organisation that Lucy works for. Have you ever seen cases of domestic abuse taken through the national referral mechanism?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Could you explain the purpose of the national referral mechanism?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Let us say that a woman had a spousal visa, or did not but was here with a partner, and was essentially being treated like a slave in their home, which would not be uncommon. Would support organisations—including Women’s Aid, where Lucy works—ever refer those women to the trafficking service that exists in this country, run by the Salvation Army?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q You would never do that. Has any part of the VAWG strategy in this country ever made this suggestion for migrant women? Have there ever been any conversations, in the meetings that you have had, saying that migrant women should be using the national referral mechanism?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q It is just that the issue has come up a few times today, and I wanted some clarity. I would like a tiny bit more clarity specifically on that. If a migrant woman in, say, Bradford was in a situation and went through the national referral mechanism, what sort of support could she expect from that?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
It is called a reflection period.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Would it necessarily be gender-specific?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q We all want public money to go as far as possible, and to go where it will be most helpful. As a result of covid, some £76 million or so is going into the sector to support victims of domestic abuse and sexual violence. How can this Bill ensure that that money goes where it is most needed, and that we, as a society, get the most bang for our buck and the most justice for the money that we are spending?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q May I drill down on one issue that has come up a lot: regional variation, and making sure that the service is more uniform and consistent? As you rightly point out, a lot of money is going through police and crime commissioners. How do you think this Bill will help to provide the tools to ensure that police and crime commissioners in county A are doing as good a job as police and crime commissioners in county B, so that we get the consistency that women and victims deserve?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of this very valuable session. I thank our two witnesses very much for giving evidence.
We now move on to the next session. As the Committee is aware, one of our witnesses is giving evidence down the phone, so we will pause for a minute while we make the connection.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from Refuge and, via the audio link, SafeLives. Thank you both very much for giving evidence. I hope everyone will be forgiving of the fact that this is an unusual way of giving evidence, and it may take a minute or two to get it all working properly. Can our two witnesses introduce themselves for the record? Perhaps I will ask Suzanne to do that first.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Thank you very much. We have until 3.45 pm for this session.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Great to have you both with us. Suzanne, I will ask you about perpetrators, because that is a really important part of the Bill. The Government and PCCs have invested in Drive, which is a programme to address serial perpetrators. To what extent is it making a difference?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q That is helpful, thank you. What is your view on programmes for perpetrators being included as a positive requirement when DAPOs are issued?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you, Suzanne. I have one question for Ellie. You will have seen that the Government are bringing forward an amendment to the Bill, to provide that victims of domestic abuse are automatically considered to be in priority need for homelessness assistance. How will this help victims, in your view?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Thank you. Colleagues will have lots of questions, so I am going to draw myself in, as it were, now.
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
My first question is to Ellie, but Suzanne, if you can hear me I will take you as well in the same question. We had the designate domestic abuse commissioner in earlier on and she described how we were taking huge strides and being innovative in our approach to tackling domestic violence, where there is a proper integration of the domestic abuse commissioner position to begin with. Where you do see her, or whoever might hold that post in the future, actually having the most impact?Q
Andrew Bowie (Conservative, West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine)
Q Suzanne, I do not know whether you heard my original question, but if you had a shopping list for the new designate domestic abuse commissioner, what would you prioritise for her to focus on?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q Ellie, you will often be the first point of call when people call the helpline. What are the barriers to support that go beyond the helpline?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q With regards to the commissioner, everyone in this room shares your sense of excitement about the creation of the role and pleasure that the appointment has been made. How important is it to you that the role of the commissioner is independent of Government, and is demonstrably independent of Government? Does that make a difference to you?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q When you look at the legislation as it stands, do you feel it goes far enough? Would you ideally like a commissioner who is freer from Government and reports elsewhere?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q My final question to Suzanne is about cross-examination in family courts. It is a bit strange speaking out into the ether, but I know you are there somewhere, Suzanne. The legislation outlaws the vast majority of cross-examination. Do you believe it goes far enough? If you think it should go further, specifically what else would you like to see?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q I have a couple of brief questions and then something particular, if I may. All of us here will want to make this Bill the best it can be, of course, but do I understand you to welcome in broad terms the fact that there is a Domestic Abuse Bill, in principle?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q May I take that a little further? Do you welcome what is contained within it, even if there may be other things you want? Can I take it that there is nothing in here that you think takes the cause of protecting victims backwards? Would you agree that this is all a step in the right direction?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q You would not be doing your job if you did not say it could be improved—I quite get that. May I ask one other thing? One particularly powerful bit of evidence that you gave was about how, in recent weeks, the number of calls to the national domestic abuse hotline, which you run, has skyrocketed and you have used live chat to assist. We know that the new domestic abuse commissioner will have a role to scrutinise how all those services are being provided. Would you welcome her coming in to say, “Look, you have had £2 million from the Government to assist with bolstering your services. I, the domestic abuse commissioner, would like to get under the bonnet of what you are doing at Refuge, to really find out whether it is doing what we all hope it should be doing.”?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Is she welcome to come in?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q The reason I ask is that we want, of course, to make sure that this critical resource is doing what we expect. We hear evidence from you and we take it at face value, but do you agree that the commissioner can play a role in adding to public confidence that that public money is having the impact that we all wish it to have?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q Ellie, can I ask you about children? On Second Reading, a number of MPs talked about their concerns about how children would benefit from the changes in the Bill. Could you tell us where you think it could be improved for children?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q A concern has been raised that if children are not included in the definition, there is a chance that there will be less provision of community-based as well as accommodation-based services. Is that a concern that you share?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q Thank you. Can I ask both Suzanne and Ellie what changes you would seek to make to welfare provision, in order to ensure that victims and their children are able to escape violence and oppression? Suzanne, could you start?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q Ellie, did you want to comment on the welfare issue?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Thank you. We only have a couple of minutes, so we will have a quick question from Liz Saville Roberts.
Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
Q We have the domestic violence disclosure scheme and DAPOs, but they both maintain the onus on victims to take the initiative. There has been talk about a register for serial stalkers and domestic abuse offenders, along the lines of the violent and sex offenders register. Why can that not move ahead? What is preventing it? It seems a logical step, to take the onus off the victim or potential victim and shift it on to proven offenders.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
I am afraid that this will have to be a very short answer.
Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)
Q What is preventing the adoption of a register of serial stalkers and domestic abuse offenders, along the lines of the register of violent and sex offenders, given its importance in shifting the onus away from the victim and on to the perpetrator?
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
I am sorry, but that is the end of this part of the sitting. I thank both of our witnesses very much for their evidence this afternoon. It is much appreciated.
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Step Up Migrant Women campaign and from Hestia. Thanks to our witnesses for coming. Will you please introduce yourselves for the record? Then members of the Committee will ask you questions.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Thanks for coming. I was going to ask you to explain what the Step Up Migrant Women coalition is, but you have done that. It is lots of different organisations. The Step Up Migrant Women’s coalition is calling for several things to be part of the Bill that currently are not. Can you give us a quick rundown of those?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Specifically on domestic violence and destitution—it used to be called something else, and I still want to call it that—you can get destitution funding only if you are on a spousal visa. Is that correct? So that means you come here as a partner of somebody who is British or European and was living in another part of the world. Is that correct?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q On the women you work with at LAWRS, as well as in the Step Up Migrant Women coalition—let us leave the people who are on a spousal visa to one side—what sorts of visas do the other groups of women that you support have?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q So if you are a student in this country and you came over here from, let’s say, Venezuela, and you were abused by your partner, you currently would not be able to access a refuge. Is that correct?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Have you seen any cases where victims of domestic violence have come forward and ended up in immigration detention?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q Thank you. Quickly to Lyndsey, I think that Hestia are specifically looking at some of the issues around children in the Domestic Abuse Bill, if I remember the 17,000 briefings that I have read in the past week. What exactly do you want to see from the Bill?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q From your experience as a provider of services—you provide refuge accommodation, is that correct?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
And community support?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Both of them. Okay, great.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Q And MARAC—multi-agency risk assessment conference. From your experience in the areas where you operate, if a child living outside of a refuge—let us say, a high-risk MARAC case—came forward to the MARAC, how many times out of 10 do you think that child would be getting specialist support for the domestic abuse they are suffering?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q We all speak in acronyms, but for anyone who is not familiar with the term MARAC, can you please explain what it is?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I am interested in your thoughts on children, Lyndsey. I think we all accept and agree about the impact that domestic abuse can have on children living in households. I do not know whether you are familiar with clause 1 of the Bill, which specifically refers to abuse and to children being used as a form of abuse. Do you think that will help?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Giselle, thank you so much for joining us today. I was struck by your comment that the women whom you are helping are likely to be turned away by the police. Why do you think that is? The police should investigate any offence, regardless of one’s nationality or immigration status.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q How common do you and your organisation believe this is?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I appreciate that it was a FOI request, but do you know what was asked by the police of immigration enforcement?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q The reason I am asking is that it may have been that the police were checking the status. I am trying to understand where the 60% figure has come from.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q Obviously the conversation we are having is framed around the Bill, because we are starting the process of the Bill Committee. There is a lot more that you want in terms of protecting children and young people. Lyndsey, if the Bill did not exist, how would you approach the legislative challenge of protecting young people and giving them the kind of protection that you believe children need?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q The commissioner would have the power to make recommendations to other Government Departments. Although not everything is mentioned in the Bill, there is a vehicle for taking things forward and engaging with other Departments. We cannot predict the future, but do you think that, based on the powers you see in the Bill, the commissioner will have an unignorable voice in trying to get the changes for the two circumstances you have just illustrated?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Q Is that diminution because of the normalisation of that, or the frequency? Why would that happen?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
So we need something that is unignorable? Part of that is about creating the opportunity for it, and part of it is making sure that the vehicle that is created is filled by the right person—not just now, but into the future.Q
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
I was interested in what you said about the MARACs, having been responsible for MARACs in a previous life. What do you think the Bill will do, if anything, to strengthen MARACs and the ability to work across agencies?Q
Karen Buck (Labour, Westminster North)
Does anyone else have any questions? In that case, thank you very much for your evidence this afternoon.