Agriculture Bill
Public Bill Committee, 13 February 2020.
(Morning)
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from NFU Cymru, the Farmers’ Union of Wales, and the Welsh Government. Thank you very much for coming and welcome. We have until 12.15 for this panel. Would you introduce yourselves before we move to questions?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q 141 Schedule 5 to the Bill makes explicit provision for Wales, and in particular gives the Welsh Government the power to amend, modify and improve the legacy common agricultural policy scheme. What would be your priorities for that simplification? What are your key concerns about the existing CAP, and, if the Welsh Government had a free hand to improve and simplify it, what would you like them to do?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q What about the so-called greening rules? When those were introduced, environmental non-governmental organisations said that that was greenwashing and farmers said that it was green taping. Perhaps both were right, in that it has not delivered much, if anything, for the environment and it is responsible for about 50% of all the guidance that we have to issue. Do you take the view that it is better just switched off altogether, so that we do not have the crop diversity rule and do not have the ecological focus area rules, either?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Good morning, Mr Stringer, and good wishes to those on the Government side who may have a nervous day ahead—we wish you well. My question is one that we have put to other witnesses before. We are obviously very concerned about the potential threat to farmers if food is imported that was produced to lower health and welfare standards. What is your view on that and what do you think could be done about it in the Welsh context?Q
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
On that last point, I would be interested to know whether any of you have had discussions with farmers’ unions or equivalent bodies, or Governments in other countries, in anticipation of the new trade arrangements that might be put in place. Do you detect any appetite to break into the UK market and in particular any willingness to adapt farming practices abroad in order to access our market? We represent a very big market for these countries. Do you think those which currently produce food at standards we would not accept might be prepared to develop better practices so that they can access our marketQ ?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
My question is about aspects of the agreement on agriculture. Clause 42 states at one pointQ :
“The regulations may make provision requiring a devolved authority to provide information to the Secretary of State.”
Do you want a corresponding requirement for the Secretary of State to consult the devolved authorities on the operation of those provisions? This is about classifying domestic support in so far as it affects the agreement on agriculture and relates to our position in the WTO. It is a very specific question: do you think that Wales—and Scotland and Northern Ireland—should be consulted, as well as required to provide information?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q May I get some clarification? You say, “We have agreed a way of working,” but it is not in the Bill. Where does it exist, this way of working?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I do not want to be indelicate—perhaps you are at a useful stage, and I acknowledge that the Minister is very co-operative on these matters—but do you think that there will be any harm in inserting an amendment to the clause, that the Secretary of State should also be required to consult the devolved authorities?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
My question is on the red meat levy. The Bill irons out an imbalance that has affected many of my farmers—I should say that it is a pleasure to see one of my constituents here this morning. Are you content with that amendment, or would you suggest further amendments to the scheme to improve traceability? That question is particularly for the unions. Mr Render, would you clarify the timetable for the Welsh Government’s equivalent Bill or next steps?Q
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
MrQ Render, can I press you a bit further? You were saying that the legislation from Wales will have to be set in law. Yes, absolutely, but when will it actually be up and running? We accept that there will be a time lag, but it is important that it is as close as possible, because what we do not want is divergence, which you have already alluded to. We know that the border is porous, and that livestock and crops travel across it all the time. It is important that where key parts of the Bill do not apply to Wales, such as the environmental land management schemes, we make sure that Welsh farmers are not suffering detriment. I wondered what the panel’s thoughts on that were.
Alicia Kearns (Conservative, Rutland and Melton)
WhatQ assessment have you made of the impact of the Bill on food producers, particularly the agri-food supply chain, and are there any missed opportunities in the Bill that you would like to see us take action on?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
The other day, we heard evidence from John Cross of the Traceability Design User Group and Simon Hall, who is the managing director of Livestock Information Ltd, which is a new organisation. I thought they were a little vague on details of the traceability service that they are setting up in England, and on how it will integrate or potentially even overrule existing traceability services in the devolved nations. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on that.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
It is the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q How do the four different schemes and the devolved nations currently integrate?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
In Wales.
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
I want to pick up on the question of divergence. I realise that the Bill affects England, but there are plenty of farms around the border. How will they be affected and what can we do in the Bill to support them more?Q
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
This question is primarily for Mr Render, but others may wish to chip in. In earlier evidence sessions, we heard some of the frustrations with the inflexibility of cross-compliance, such as the three-crop rule or rules on hedge cutting. In particular, farmers tell me that it can sometimes be frustrating that rules on the application of slurries and manures are based on the calendar, not on the particular climatic conditions of a season or the situation on a particular farm. Do you feel that the powers that you will have will allow you the flexibility—even in-year flexibility—to enable you to carry out those sorts of operations under the best conditions, and at the same time to understand your obligations in the way that we implement the nitrate regulations and water framework directive-type regulations that we take over? Do you feel that you can get the balance right between the flexibility and the obligations to the environmentQ ?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q I wish to reinforce the point that Mr Render and Dr Fenwick made. They basically made my point for me: the four nations already operate different policy and regulatory frameworks, within a common framework across the UK, and with certain common frameworks under the EU. That has been the case since devolution 20 years ago. I would hate to see any sort of imposition of a UK-wide situation that would affect that.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Order. I am afraid that we are at the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Examination of Witness
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Soil Association and we have until 1 pm for this session. Welcome to the Committee. Please introduce yourself.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
The acoustics in this room are appalling. Can you speak up and project your voice?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q You know that in the new Bill, compared to the one in the previous Parliament, we have added an explicit purpose around soil quality. Will you describe for us how best to measure soil quality or soil health? What kind of management interventions should we encourage under the Bill’s provisions?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Soils have been around for a very long time and the human race has worked out how to grow crops on them, so I never understand why people say we need huge amounts of research when we know how soil works. Soil science is not new.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Some suggested as long ago as the 1930s—such as Albert Howard, who was seen by many as the father of the organics movement—that humus in soil is the key criterion to target, because that links to mycorrhizal activity and soil health more generally, carbon in the soils and the growth of various micro-organisms. Would you subscribe to that?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q If we tried to return to a general principle of more sustainable farming practices and husbandry, but recognising that the majority of farmers will probably want to stop short of becoming fully organic, could certain things be borrowed from organic production—traditional approaches to farm husbandry that could be deployed in more conventional farms? Or is it your view that nothing works unless you go the whole way to be fully organic?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Since the earlier iteration of the Agriculture Bill, there has been wide acknowledgment that we face a climate crisis. As part of that, although clearly different in different parts of the country, there is a crisis around our soil, is there not? Could you say a little about how intense that is?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I guess many of us would say that there is a need for urgency, but farmers find themselves caught in the middle, don’t they? There is pressure to change—the Bill is part of that change—but is there not a danger that if we have food imported to lower standards, that will put farmers under even more economic pressure?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q What would you like to see put into the Bill, in terms of the imported food standards issue?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I represent the waterlogged Wiltshire farms that you passed today. Given your point about different soils in different places, are you confident that, in the emerging policy about public good payments, we are getting the balance right between farming practices and outcomes? The detail is not all there yet, but are you concerned about getting that balance right?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
That is helpful. Thank you.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Where to start? Could you say a bit more about the whole-farm systems approach and the concern that the Bill might lead to farmers cherry-picking some of the public goods, but not to a transformation of farming, as would be possible if we were to go for a more holistic approachQ ?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Meeting net zero is a public good, looking at climate mitigation and adaptation. Do you feel the Bill could be stronger on that? My concern is that while in a sector like transport it is quite easy to make big policy moves that shift us, say, to electric vehicles, because there is only a small number of car companies, in agriculture there are lots of different types of farmers with a large geographical spread. How do you get them all working towards that net zero goal, and could the Bill be a mechanism to do that more effectively? I have not heard much from the National Farmers Union about the road map for getting there.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Conversion to organic farming is quite an expensive process, because during that conversion period one cannot sell organic products. Do you think there should be more incentives for farmers to switch to organic production and, if so, how can we ensure that we do not flood the market with organic food and therefore undermine the whole economic basis for organic farming?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
AsQ you know, clause 1 provides financial assistance for protecting and improving the quality of soil and, as you mentioned earlier, soil is highly variable and it is difficult to set the standards equally across all the farmers. You mentioned something about tools for farmers—being given specifically, I guess, for the 25 years that you mentioned. Are there any specific measures that you would like to see mentioned in relation to soil health?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Mr Morgan, in your written submissions you criticised the Bill as it is currently drafted for not having clear targets for soil health. I represent the Derbyshire Dales area, which has a massive variation of soil qualities from the flats to the higher land. How can you possibly fairly have targets, and how would you measure them, to make sure that those of my farmers who put a lot of effort in to improve the soil, but who will get a lesser result because of the nature of the soil they have, can be fairly rewarded for providing a public good improvement?Q
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Q That would be a huge piece of work, would it not—like a national survey of each individual farm. If you want to set targets as you suggest, are you saying that that is realistically what the Government have to look at? Can there be a more pragmatic approach?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I just wanted to come in on this point about targets. I know they are the tool that people often reach for—they say we should just have some statutory target—but you said yourself at the beginning that it varies considerably from soil to soil, it is hard to measure these things, and an enormous amount of research is needed. I have sometimes been told it will probably take eight years to do that sort of research.
Given the complexity of the issue, is there not a danger that if you are waiting to try to identify the target, you end up effectively delaying action—the worst of all worlds? Does it perhaps matter less that there is some sort of prescribed target, and more that you encourage and incentivise good soil husbandry from year one as best you can with the knowledge that you have? You can measure trends. You can get a sense of whether the trends that matter are moving in the right direction from the interventions you are doing. Is not that perhaps a better way to approach these things than some kind of prescriptive target?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q There was another area of the Bill that I wanted to ask your view on. It is further on—there is the clause relating to organic, principally marketing, standards. That is, in essence, the primary powers that we would need to amend the organics regime that we have inherited from the EU and that itself is about to change.
Are you content with the revised organics regime that we are about to inherit from the EU, as it stands, or would you be interested in us using these powers to make specific changes that might make the future UK organics regime work better?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Two questions: first, in some of your evidence you have suggested that there should be a public health aim within the Bill, and I wondered whether you could tell us a little more about how you think that might work. Secondly— you have touched on this a bit in some of your contribution—who do you think is best-placed and qualified to negotiate and administer the new environmental land management schemes? Are there any potential conflicts of interest in that set-up?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q You said a little about the environmental land management schemes, but who is best placed to administer and deliver those?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
You do not have to answer if you do not want to, but the fact that you are treading warily tells us what we need to know. Thank you.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On that point, you made a reference earlier to the need for advisers. You will be aware that the concept behind the future policy is that there will be an individual agronomist—possibly from the private sector, possibly from groups, perhaps even from your group or the Wildlife Trusts—who would be accredited by the Government to help farmers put schemes together and to walk to the farm and sit down around the kitchen table to do that. I think I am right in saying that the Soil Association already accredits organic producers and growers, probably under a similar model. I wondered if you might explain how that process works. How many clients—for want of a better term—can an accredited Soil Association adviser look after in a typical year?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Thank you. If there are no further questions from the Committee, I thank you, on behalf of the Committee, for giving your evidence, Mr Morgan.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from NFU Scotland, Quality Meat Scotland and the Scottish Government. Thank you for coming. The panel will finish at 2.30 pm. Could you introduce yourselves for the record?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q 174 For decades, the common agricultural policy, with all its prescriptive rules, has applied to every part of the UK. As we leave, each part of the UK will have the freedom to develop a policy that is right for it. Could you each say what it is about the common agricultural policy that you dislike the most, what you most want to change and what type of system you think is appropriate for the modern world?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q When the current design of the CAP was brought in, I remember a lot of concern in Scotland, including from NFU Scotland, farmers and the Government, that area-based payments did not work in such a landscape—that the diversity between the lowlands and the moorlands made it highly problematic for an area-based-only payment to work. Mr Burgess, are you saying that, although you might try to simplify the legacy CAP scheme around the edges, you still think that a basic CAP subsidy on land tenure is the right approach?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q We have set out in this Bill a seven-year transition for England, from 2021 to 2028. I suppose it is possible that the Scottish Government might say, “We will keep the current system with a few minor simplifications until 2024”, but then ditch it overnight and go straight in one leap to a new system. Do you envisage a sharper transition than seven years, or have the Scottish Government made clear that they will definitely not do things faster than seven years?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Good afternoon. I think Mr Clarke alluded to this point briefly earlier, but I will ask all of you, as I have asked most of the witnesses: what effect do you think allowing imports of food produced to lower environmental welfare and health standards will have on Scottish consumers and producers and, most of all, on the Scottish environmentQ ?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Paragraph 21 of the written evidence from NFU Scotland touches on the complicated question of the governance of common frameworks. We had the same discussion with representatives from Wales this morning. How do you see a way forward on that? It seems that divergence is inevitable at some point, and yet it needs to be managed.
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
I do not know whether I need to restate my interests— I once worked for the UK farming unions, including NFU Scotland—but I will do so, to be on the safe side.Q
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady. We are halfway through and a number of Members want to ask questions, so I would be grateful if you could be short and precise.
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Certainly. Mr Hall, your counterparts in Wales are happy with the pace at which the Welsh Government are bringing forward their equivalent Agriculture Bill. Are you content with the pace of the Scottish Government?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the Scottish Government still maintain a headage payment system, particularly for the beef sector. Would that sort of measure remain on the table as you design a future agricultural policy?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
We do not have much time, so could you let us know quickly the main areas you have concerns with in the Bill? You have expressed some of them—governance frameworks is one, of course, Jonnie. One of the things that was brought up was the livestock information provision. An organisation is being set up, and this morning our Welsh counterparts expressed real concern about that. They said that that section of the Bill rang alarm bells and raised important operational issues about whether this could indeed be overseen and directed through England, through the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. That is a starting point, but are there are any other areas of the Bill that you have concerns aboutQ ?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q On Tuesday, we had evidence from Jake Fiennes, the general manager for conservation for the Holkham Estate. In his view, the definition of livestock in clause 1 should not be extended to game—to grouse, pheasant or venison, such as the excellent produce produced in Scotland. Do you agree with that observation, or do you think that the management of game and financial help from the taxpayer for those sorts of landscapes would be beneficial to the future of agriculture in Scotland?
Dave Doogan (Scottish National Party, Angus)
Given the broader ambitions of this Bill, and that which is going through the Scottish Parliament at the hands of the Scottish Government, how seriously do you view the potential for any checks on agricultural commerce between Scotland and Northern Ireland, in terms of how that affects crofters, farmers and processorsQ ?
Dave Doogan (Scottish National Party, Angus)
Q What I was trying to get at was the particular role of trade between Scotland and NI, and the implications of any kind of impediment to that free movement. We are not going to have that between Scotland and England, or between Scotland and Wales, but we potentially will with NI. How big a deal is that for Scottish agriculture?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
I call Danny Kruger, and this will have to be the last question.
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
I asked your Welsh counterparts this question this morning. Mr Hall, you talked about the transition from an area-based to an activity-based subsidy regime. There is also an outcome-based regime. I am interested in your view on the right principles that should guide us in designing a regime that has public good as its objective. Do you think we are sufficiently clear at this stage about whether farmers should be rewarded for what they do, or for what the outcomes of their work areQ ?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of this panel. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for coming along this afternoon.
Examination of Witness
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear evidence from George Monbiot. Welcome to the Committee. This panel will finish at 3 pm. Would you introduce yourself, please?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
I suppose it’s down to me?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Yes. The Minister has gone to see the Prime Minister.
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q What do you think about the public good provisions in the Bill, and to what extent do you think they are correctly defined? Is there further scope for the definition of public good?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon. Since the Bill was introduced a couple of years ago, the world has moved on in some ways. There is greater awareness of the challenge that we face, and the Government have conceded that there is a climate emergency. Do you think that the Bill is up to the task and, if you started with a blank sheet of paper, what would you do?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I have one additional question that has not come up very much. We talk about public goods and public money, but should there be some public voice in all this, for any decisions about what goes on locally? Where are the people in all this?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Mr Monbiot, you are on record as saying that
“farming is no longer essential to human survival”.
In contradiction to what the Soil Association told us this morning—that we should have more mixed farming and more livestock, allowing soils to be improved by the use of natural manures—you suggest that we should abandon livestock production, particularly on the uplands, and plant trees and rewild large areas of our country. Is that a correct appraisal?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
CouldQ we talk about peatlands? You have been very involved in trying to make the case for the restoration of peatlands and their role as a natural climate solution. Do you think more can be done in the Bill to encourage their being left alone?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
I am interested in your view that we should be looking at reducing farming land usage. As we leave our present farming relationships due to Brexit, is this not a time of national need when we must preserve our acreage to feed our growing population? I am asking whether you have a political slant that is not directed at feeding the nation and securing the interests of our home farmers and workers. Is it not fanciful to think that we should give up a large amount of our acreage? Do we not need it to save us against the trials and tribulations of the post-Brexit worldQ ?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Q With respect, what do I say to my farmers in the Derbyshire dales, where, by necessity, the land is good only for sheep in some areas? Do I tell them they should not be able to earn a living and feed the country? It is a bit fanciful to think we can give up huge tracts of land. Is it not the case that we will get the best outcome if farmers work in conjunction with places such as the Peak park authority?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Hi George. There has been a lot of publicity about the carbon footprints of different types of food. For example, 1 kg of vegetables produces approximately 2 kg of carbon dioxide, whereas 1 kg of beef produces about 27 kg of carbon dioxide. Do you think the Bill should go a step further and focus on those who produce foodstuffs with low carbon footprints rather than those who produce foodstuffs with higher carbon footprints?Q
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I have one yes/no question and then a slightly fuller question. The yes/no question is, did you say that we should take food production out of the Bill? Food production is something that has been added, as an objective of the new system, and I think you said that it should not be an objective of the Bill.
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q It should not be seen as a public good. Okay. Thank you.
My next question is this: do you agree that a grass-fed cattle herd on open pasture in Wiltshire has a net positive effect in terms of carbon capture? I appreciate that you have an argument about opportunity costs—missed opportunities from grazing—but the terrible carbon impact of beef is because of intensively farmed, closely packed cattle—
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q However, a good pasture-fed, grass-fed cattle herd has a net positive effect in terms of carbon. Do you not agree?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q You were speaking just then about the conflict between natural heritage and cultural heritage, and you will know that the highlands in Scotland still have a wonderful cultural heritage, despite what was at times a quite systematic depopulation of the area. I wondered what sort of future you envisage for the people who live there now if they turn from being farmers on the uplands, which, as you know, are basically largely suitable for rough grazing—that is one of the reasons why sheep, and to a lesser extent cattle, are grazed there. If they do that, what do they then become? Just on a practical, day-to-day level, what do they then become—just land managers, because they get subsidies for food production, which only supplements part of their income? What do those people do, and how do we keep them there so that we still have communities in the highlands?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q My farmers would argue that food production and environmental delivery go hand in hand, and you cannot have one without the other. They would not be able to make any money if they did not have good soil, clean air and clean water, and they are responsible for maintaining that. If we did adopt your model of removing land from agricultural production, who would be responsible for ensuring those environmental benefits? Who would be safeguarding that?
Dave Doogan (Scottish National Party, Angus)
Q Mr Monbiot, there is a significant difference between your ambitions and the ambitions of the Bill and agriculture more generally. If you were to get free rein with one element of the Bill—some operational amendment that you could make to the Bill, rather than a theoretical one—what would it be, and how would you achieve it?
Dave Doogan (Scottish National Party, Angus)
In terms of those things that you would have them do, are these elements of rewilding or some form of carbon—
Alicia Kearns (Conservative, Rutland and Melton)
I apologise, perhaps Mr Zeichner planned to ask this, as he is an east of England MP, but I found your description of the east of England as an arable desert slightly confusing, having grown up there. It is better known as Britain’s breadbasket, so I wonder how you came to that conclusionQ .
Nadia Whittome (Labour, Nottingham East)
George, Parliament has declared a climate emergency since the last agriculture Bill. What changes can you see in this Bill that deliver the urgent action neededQ ?
Nadia Whittome (Labour, Nottingham East)
Q I have a quick supplementary question. How far does this Bill go in doing that?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
A very brief question from Theo Clarke.
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Thank you. Farmers are at the forefront of climate change and, I think, do a huge amount to help conserve the countryside. Do you think that farmers and land managers should be financially supported to deliver environmental improvements, or should it just be required by regulationQ ?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Order. That brings us to the end of this session. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you for your evidence. I apologise to those members of the Committee who would have liked to ask questions. You have answered more questions per minute in half an hour than anybody else. Thank you very much.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from Professor Bill Keevil from the University of Southampton. We have until 3.30 pm. Will you introduce yourself, please?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q The Bill makes provision for Ministers to report periodically on food security. What do you think about that? What other food security measures might you want to see?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon, Professor Keevil. When I came to this debate a few weeks ago and started reading about it, I found the apparently contradictory claims about the safety of the various systems confusing. I was struck by your evidence, and I wondered if you could take us through it. You say at one point that it is difficult to make comparisons, but I must say that in most of our debates people make comparisons with huge amounts of confidence, depending on which side of the debate they are on. You also say that the USA reports that 14.7% of its population contracts a food-borne illness annually, while in the UK the figure is 1.5%. Could you amplify that?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q We occasionally hear of outbreaks of food poisoning, but this is the Agriculture Bill, which relates to food only once it passes the farm gate. To what extent is the problem within agriculture and to what extent is it in the transportation, processing, storage or preparation of food?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q So is food safer now than it was, say, 10 or 20 years ago, or do we have increasing problems?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q The Bill attempts to support innovation, and you said that you like the idea that it is environmental and sustainable. What specifically would you like to see in the Bill to support innovation and help improve supply in this country?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q Am I correct in assuming that you are very much in favour of natural, organic farming? One of the things that I am concerned about, particularly in this Bill, is that there farmers are being subjected to a lot of expectations to deliver sustainably, and as you know that costs a lot of money. Do you feel that the Bill should provide more information or support, in terms of how people can do organic farming in a way that is not going to affect us, particularly given the concerns about imported food, which will make it very difficult. Does that make sense?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q You spoke about the physical method for dealing with listeria and salmonella and some of these new pathogens that are emerging. Can you give us your sense of the global architecture for managing this, and what prospects you see for new global agreements on how to deliver high-quality food hygiene? Does the opportunity we now have to be part of the global trade conversation give us the opportunity to improve global standards? What are the architecture and institutions, and what is your sense of where the leadership on this is coming from globally?
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
In the Bill, there is a requirement to report on food security every five years. What are your thoughts on that timescaleQ ?
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
That is what I would like to have your opinion on, because obviously five years is a long time. Do you have any thoughts on the timescale? Would you make a recommendation?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Q Professor Keevil, you make quite a bold statement in your briefing note about the 14.7% of the USA population getting food-borne illnesses every year, compared with only 1.5% in the UK. I want to ask you about your reference for that, because there is not a reference for the source of that information. That brings me on to a general question. It is quite clear that there could be a variety of other reasons for that: it could be bad storage, bad travel or bad food preparation or cooking. How reliable is this sort of statistic in a climate where we are facing going into new agreements with other countries? How reliable is that sort of information?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q We mentioned clause 17 on food security, which is new to this edition of the Bill. Do you think there is scope for an extra provision? It talks about looking at global food availability, supply sources and resilience of the supply chain. In terms of your speciality, there is a lot of concern about endocrine disrupters in food, nitrates in meat, and the overuse of antibiotics, which affects human health, through the food chain. Do you think there should be reports to Parliament on food security? It is not really about food poisoning, but about the wider health concerns about what is getting into our food supply.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
It seems we have no more questions. Professor Keevil, on behalf of the Committee, I thank you for your time and answers this afternoon.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from Unite and the Landworkers’ Alliance. We have until 4 pm. Welcome. Would you introduce yourselves?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Thank you. The acoustics in the room are poor, so it would be helpful if you raised your voice.
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q Diana Holland, in your submission you say that you think the Bill should have measures about pay conditions for agricultural workers. What do you think those measures should be, and why would the Bill, as drafted, be the most appropriate vehicle for them?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon to you both. We have heard from a lot of witnesses, but this is possibly the first time we have actually heard about the people who work on the land, which is why it is very important that you are here. How could the things that you are looking for be incorporated into the Bill?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Will you explain some of the reasons why you feel that agriculture is different from other sectors? When the Agricultural Wages Board was abolished in England, the coalition Government claimed that the minimum wage would pick up the issues. What has the experience been in England since, and what is the difference in the other countries where similar arrangements have persisted?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q What is your assessment of the way in which the Bill and its conditions on unfair trading practices will work with existing legislation to protect farmers and those at the lower end of the supply chain? How will those instruments work together?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
In terms of farmers being at one end of the supply chain, dealing with much larger retailers and much longer, complex supply chains. Do you think the Bill gives them any further protection than they already have under the Groceries Code Adjudicator or the grocery supply code of practice? Do you think that the Bill will work well with existing policy measures?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q Do you think the Bill gives more protection to farmers or farming co-operatives than existing legislation such as the Groceries Code Adjudicator?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q My question is targeted at Jyoti. Do you as a smallholder famer feel that the Bill is wide enough to support those with small farms, compared with those with bigger farms?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q This is for Diana. You mentioned this when you spoke about wages, but could you explain a bit more about why you think agricultural workers need a different protection regime than workers in other sectors?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q You mean they are particularly vulnerable?
Dave Doogan (Scottish National Party, Angus)
Q Diana, you talked very clearly about the effect of the removal of the Agricultural Wages Board and its replacement with the dysfunctional—in the context of agricultural workers—minimum wage. Are the three devolved Administrations broadly similar? Do you suggest that including in the Bill an instrument to replicate the provision of the Agricultural Wages Board would be relatively straightforward for Ministers to do?
Dave Doogan (Scottish National Party, Angus)
Q Jyoti, I was interested to note that you represent large horticultural producers as well. There is nothing in the Bill to give a positive voice to industry about the availability of seasonal labour from abroad. Do you see that as a challenge? Would you have that amended?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Key to the structure of agriculture in many parts of the country is the traditional family farm. In many cases, family members who perhaps have other jobs will come and work for free at weekends. Spouses are often unwaged. As a farmer’s son myself, I did not get any wages at all until I was 28; I just got some money out of my mum’s purse if I needed it. You suggest reinstating the Agricultural Wages Board. How would that work with the traditional family farm structure? I can see difficulties. Some of these farms are very marginal indeed and can survive only because of people working either unwaged or for low wages in the hope of inheriting the family business.
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q I want to pick up the point about agricultural workers. My constituency in Stafford has a lot of rural areas. Farmers have mentioned to me that the pilot scheme is great, and it has now been extended to 10,000. Are your members saying that we need to have an increase in seasonal workers, because there will be fruit left unpicked later in the year if more do not come in? What are your views on that?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I would like to pursue the labour supply issues, because my understanding is that there are very large numbers of people working in something like the poultry sector who are not originally from the UK. Is there anything you think the Bill should look at to make sure that some of those issues are addressed—I am looking particularly at Diana on that one—and am I right to be concerned about it?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
There is a danger that, if we do not address those labour supply issues, the industry will struggle, and we will then inevitably be back to importing food from outside again.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no more questions, I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from Sustain and Compassion in World Farming. We have until 4.30 pm. I welcome the witnesses and would ask them to introduce themselves for the record.
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q This is a question probably for all three witnesses. In your submissions, you refer to some of the public good provisions in the Bill as being positive. I just wondered what aspects of the Bill you thought needed to be improved.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon. I have different questions for Vicki and for Compassion. Vicki, in your written evidence, you make a very strong case for a public health function. Can you elaborate on that a little? To Compassion, you make some quite strong suggestions about the pre-conditions for receiving public money. Can you amplify that for the benefit of the Committee?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Before we turn to Compassion, on the antibiotics point, do you think there should be stronger, more directive provisions in the Bill?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q To follow smoothly on from that, British farmers pride themselves on having the highest welfare standards in the world. Indeed, in some ways we were held back by the European Union, because we tried to ban things like dry sow stalls, but we could not stop their pork coming in.
However, I noticed that the Compassion in World Farming website talks about ending “the horror” of factory farming. I just wondered if you felt that there were any farms in this country that that definition would apply to. You talked about housed livestock—for example, dairy cattle that are housed in winter. Do you think that is acceptable? Where do you set the bar in describing what British farmers are doing, perfectly legally, as “horror”?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q It saves piglets’ lives, though, does it not?
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
Q You mentioned that you want to look at banning live exports. Have you talked to people— certain farmers—who say, “Look, let’s be honest: in the south-east of England, to export live exports is quicker than travelling hundreds of miles to an abattoir, given the numerous closures of many of the abattoirs”? Do you have a solution to that?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q I am pleased that the Secretary of State now has direct responsibility for the nation’s food security, but I wonder whether it should be a national priority to support domestic agriculture. What is your view on the frequency of reporting? I know at the moment it is being suggested it should be every five years, but we have heard differing views today. What do the panel think about that?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q I am trying to tease this out, because we have heard previous witnesses say that there is concern about the lack of baseline regulation in the Bill and the fact that we no longer have the cross-compliance checks. There are concerns that people will drop below the minimum standards. How does that work? Clearly, you do not want to use public money for public goods just to reward people for keeping to the standards required of them by law, because there is no additionality to that; they ought to be doing it anyway. We could reward farmers for doing the higher welfare stuff, but at the same time, we really ought to have an ambition to say, “If they can do it, why can’t all farmers treat their animals that way?” Will we end up always having to keep raising what counts as higher welfare for farmers to get money? Do you see what I am saying? You could almost end up not raising standards, because the farmers would not get paid for the higher welfare standards.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Is that how it would work? That is the other thing. It is the same as with planting trees or improving soil health; there is a danger that, in a bid to use public money to encourage other people to do that, the people who were ahead of the curve are penalised.
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q I have a question about kitemarks found on products, such as Red Tractor and RSPCA Assured. How could future Government policy recognise that?
If I may, Mr Stringer, I have a small supplementary. In Compassion’s written submission, you welcomed the Secretary of State’s ability to make regulations regarding farming method in relation to labelling. Could you elaborate on that, please?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q We had George Monbiot here earlier; I do not know if you were listening. What did you think about his point about grass-fed beef?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q And carbon capture of beef herds?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Just before we finish on the issue of labelling, I see that France has introduced regulations to allow misleading words, such as sausage, burger or steak, to be used in connection with non-meat products. Do you think we should follow that lead?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no more questions, on behalf of the Committee I thank the witnesses for their evidence this afternoon.
Examination of Witness
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We have until 5pm for evidence from the representative of Which? Welcome. Could you introduce yourself?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The Bill sets a different course for the future of agriculture policy, so it will be much more about payment for the delivery of public goods than arbitrary area-based subsidies. Are you generally supportive of that approach? I know there are one or two other things that you think have been missed. Perhaps you could explain what those are to the Committee.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q To come back to that point, the view we took when drafting the Bill—I am interested in why you take a different view—is that the payment for public goods could involve things such as reduced pesticide use and reduced antibiotic use, because animal health and welfare is in there. By targeting those public goods in some areas, there would be a consequential benefit for public health, because of the nature of the food production.
There is a separate area that is about public health campaigns, healthy eating and food standards, but obviously measures are already in place through the Food Safety Act 1990 and the work that the NHS does to encourage healthy eating. Our view is that we do not want to duplicate work that is already present in other fields and is the responsibility of other Departments.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q There is an animal health provision there, which opens the prospect of healthy livestock accredited schemes that farmers could sign up to, which might be all about reduced antibiotic use or different stocking densities in poultry. That is all possible under the existing powers, so I am trying to get my head around what additional powers you feel are needed over and above the objectives that we have.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon. May I add my congratulations to the new Secretary of State? We obviously do not want to be too nice about him and set him off to a bad start, but he is clearly a popular choice.
Ms Davies, I am bound to ask you the question that I have asked virtually every other witness: from a consumer’s point of view, what would be the impact of allowing imports produced to lower standards? I think I can probably guess the answer, because it has been very consistent across all our witnesses. At the end of the whole chain, particularly with ready meals and so on, do you feel that consumers know enough in the current system? Could we not do more through the Bill to lift standards, particularly on antibiotics and so on?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q I have a question on food production standards and imports. The Agriculture Bill applies largely to England only, although there are bits and pieces that pertain to the devolved nations. Would food production standards and imports not be covered by international trade? Is the Agriculture Bill the right place for it?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q Thank you for that, Sue. I want to follow up on your comments about food standards, specifically on labelling. How far do you want the Bill to go? Obviously, this starts from the beginning. Do you see soil as part of consumers’ concerns, in terms of what type of soil is used and how it is preserved, or do they essentially just want to know about how the food is labelled?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q The Food Standards Agency looks into the standards in food production. Are there elements of that that you think should be incorporated into the Bill to embellish it?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Q Ms Davies, your organisation, Which?, has historically been a champion for consumer choice. I want to ask you what your position is. From your written statement, it seems like you are proposing a form of protectionism against certain imports based on standards, but with a lack of clarity, I would suggest. Does that not deny the consumer a choice and potentially make food a lot more expensive for the consumer?
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
Q I am sure you are aware that the national food strategy will be published shortly. How do you think that will complement the Bill? The strategy is coming out after the Bill has been published. Will the two marry up? We obviously do not know yet what it will contain.
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
Q Is there anything missing from the Bill, in terms of strengthening it or in terms of the national food strategy?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Two of the objectives of the Bill are improving plant health and reducing or protecting from environmental hazards. Groundbreaking work is obviously being done on plant breeding. For example, potatoes may not need to be sprayed every 10 days for potato blight, and there are potatoes that are potato cyst nematode resistant. Some of that may use gene editing. Do you think consumers know enough about these issues to have a view, or do you think that if it is presented in the right way, they may see that the upsides cancel out the downsides and their prejudices?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Is there any reason why people are much more open to these types of advances in medicine, for example, than in food production? It seems that they are happy to go right to the cutting edge of technology, in terms of the treatment of genetic conditions, but somehow this is different.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Some groups are talking about method of slaughter labelling. Does Which? have a view? Would the consumers you deal with find that useful?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q There is some quite misleading packaging. There was the whole issue of Tesco and its fake farms—it had pictures of cows frolicking in meadows, when they had never seen the sunlight. I am not saying that that was simply about Tesco, but the farms that Tesco had on its products did not actually exist.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Do you think that, in terms of the consumer side of things, that would be more an issue for the food strategy? I think there will be quite a focus in that on—
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q I suppose the Bill is encouraging more humane production methods and so on, and the food strategy is making sure, at the consumer end of things and the marketing end of things, that farmers can be rewarded through the market as well. They would be rewarded twice: once through public money for public goods, but also through people being prepared to pay a little bit more because they trust that something has genuinely been produced to better standards.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no more questions, let me thank you on behalf of the Committee for the evidence that you have given this afternoon. Thank you very much.