Agriculture Bill
Public Bill Committee, 11 February 2020.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points. Please switch off mobile phones. Tea and coffee is not allowed; that is not me being pompous—the Speaker does not allow tea or coffee in the Committee Rooms. Until that changes, Lent has come early and it is definitely water only.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and then a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the limited time available, I hope we can take those matters without too much debate.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 11 February) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 11 February;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 13 February;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 25 February;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 27 February;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 3 March;
(f) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 5 March;
(g) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 10 March;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
Date
Time
Witness
Tuesday 11 February
Until no later than 10.30 am
Nature Friendly Farming Network; Farmwel; LEAF; British Growers Association
Tuesday 11 February
Until no later than 11.25 am
RSPB; RSPCA; Rare Breed Survival Trust; Traceability Design User Group; Livestock Information Ltd
Tuesday 11 February
Until no later than 2.30 pm
Ulster Farmers Union; DAERA
Tuesday 11 February
Until no later than 3.00 pm
NFU; National Federation of Young Farmers Clubs
Tuesday 11 February
Until no later than 3.30 pm
Cooperatives UK
Tuesday 11 February
Until no later than 4.15 pm
Campaign to Protect Rural England; Kings Crops; Holkham Estate
Tuesday 11 February
Until no later than 5.00 pm
Country Land and Business Association; Tenant Farmers Association
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 12.15 pm
NFU Cymru; Farmers’ Union of Wales; Welsh Government
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 1.00 pm
Soil Association
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 2.30 pm
NFU Scotland; Quality Meat Scotland; Scottish Government
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 3.00 pm
George Monbiot, The Guardian
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 3.30 pm
Professor Bill Keevil, University of Southampton
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 4.00 pm
Unite; Landworkers Alliance
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 4.30 pm
Sustain; Compassion in World Farming
Thursday 13 February
Until no later than 5.00 pm
Which?
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 28; Schedule 1; Clause 29; Schedule 2; Clauses 30 to 34; Schedule 3; Clause 35; Schedule 4; Clauses 36 to 43; Schedule 5; Clauses 44 and 45; Schedule 6; Clauses 46 to 49; Schedule 7; Clauses 50 to 54; new Clauses; new Schedules; remaining proceedings on the Bill;
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 10 March.
The programme motion was agreed by the Programming Sub-Committee yesterday. I hope we are all agreed on the programme motion, and I look forward to hearing evidence from witnesses in the order set out.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room. Colleagues can get papers on that table over there. The helpful Clerks will indicate where they are; if Members go around, behind me or the witnesses, they can pick up the papers.
Examination of Witnesses
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from the Nature Friendly Farming Network, Farmwel, Linking Environment and Farming, and the British Growers Association. Starting with Jack Ward, could you all very briefly introduce yourselves?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
May I say to our witnesses, if you have never previously appeared before a Committee, that there is nothing at all to be worried about? My colleagues are very friendly. They are just trying to get information from you to use during the Committee stage of our proceedings. The session ends at 10.30 am, so it will go very quickly.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to start by asking what you consider to have been the main failures and limitations of the existing direct payment scheme, the common agricultural policy. Also, what are the main opportunities for your own particular interests, based on a new policy that rewards farmers for the delivery of public goods?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
GoodQ morning to you; it is very nice to see a farmer from Cambridgeshire here. The opening comments from the witnesses have been very positive and helpful, and I think we all welcome the notion of public money being spent on environmental gain. However, a number of us are concerned about the lack of detail in the Bill about environmental land management schemes. I think we had expected a policy paper from the Government, but I am not sure we have seen that yet. Do you share that concern?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Before bringing in Danny Kruger, I should have told new Members that, when they start questioning—they do not have to do it every time—they should declare any financial interest they have in these areas.
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Certainly, I do not have any financial interests in the business of farmingQ . Martin, I was interested in your point about the way that, under the direct payments system, the landlord gets the benefit, not the tenant. Is that just your experience, or can you amplify that point and explain more how that works? Are you confident that that will not be replicated under the new regime? Does the Bill give you confidence that the tenants will get the benefits from public money for public goods?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Do you think the Bill does enough to encourage the whole-farm approach, or is there a danger that farmers might just pick and choose among the public goods and do some of the things that are easier, but carry on farming as normal on the rest of the farmQ ?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Do you mean the baseline regulations?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q As I understand it, at the moment, farmers will get the basic payments for just having the land. If you check cross-compliance and they are not meeting the standards, they will be penalised. Are you saying that if you have a public goods approach, and people get rewarded only for the good stuff they do, there is not a way of penalising them or holding them to account if they are not meeting standards?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Mr Costain, and then we really must move on.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
I declare an interest: I am a farmer in North Yorkshire, where we have been since 1850, and a member of the National Farmers Union and the Country Land Q and Business Association. The question I want to ask is whether you think the Bill will do enough to enable us to get the balance right and reward people for what they are doing already—I am thinking particularly of some of the upland farmers on the North Yorkshire moors and in the very marginal parts of our country. Most people probably take the view that they should keep doing exactly what they are doing, because that is exactly what we want. The flip side of that is incentivising other farmers, perhaps in the east of the country, on some of our more intensively farmed areas, to do more green things. Do you feel that there is enough in the Bill to reassure those who are in those upland areas who are concerned because the subsidies are basically what are keeping them on the land, and the others—the Beeswax Dyson Farmings of this world—who can dance to the tune that the Minister is playing? I think Caroline might be the best person to start.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
It is very encouraging to hear your enthusiasm for improving the standards of the producers you represent. How concerned are those folks about cheaper imports undercutting produce through trade deals that might be negotiated in the future? Would you like to see something preventing that in the Bill? Certainly, the farmers I speak to are increasingly concerned about thatQ .
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
We are now halfway through the evidence session. I have lots of colleagues who want to ask questions and I want to ensure that they are all called.
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
I refer Members to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests for my interest as a very small farmer. I have a question for Mr Lines. You mentioned that tenants should get the payment. Can I ask you two things? Are you advocating a change in business farm tenancy arrangements and land tenure? Or are you really saying that money from the Government should go to the person who physically farms, rather than the landowner, or a mixture of both? Would you please clarifyQ ?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I would like to return to the vexed issue of imports to potentially lower standards. ffinlo, you mentioned some of the potential impacts. I would like everyone to comment on the potential environmental impact, given that people are so positive about the potential here. If we do find ourselves being undercut by lower-standard imports, what would be the effect on the environmental aims in the Bill?
Alicia Kearns (Conservative, Rutland and Melton)
How do you assess that the security of food supply will be improved by the Bill? What do you see as the UK’s greatest threat to food security?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I would like to go back to the question of food security, and to some of the points that people have made. I am very concerned by some of what I am hearing, because it seems to me that there is a danger of a two-tier system emerging. A very high-quality, high-value system is, to ffinlo’s point, not about chasing volume. Is there not a potential problem ahead for us if we are not careful, in that we will not produce nearly as much of our own food as we would like? Going back to my earlier question, that also has environmental consequences. It goes back to a point that I think Jack made at the beginning: the sector needs to be profitable to keep people working. Is there a real danger here?
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
My question relates to employment numbers in the farming sector. Will we see people entering the sector that otherwise would not, as a result of the Bill? What will we see in terms of demographics, and what will we see in terms of the skillset of people working in the sectorQ ?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
We have 15 minutes left and at least five colleagues want to ask questions. I call Kerry McCarthy.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q May I just ask about the climate change angle? The NFU has said that it wants to reach net zero farming by 2040. There is no target in the Bill. My concern is that farmers do not really have a road map for reaching that target—we are relying on individual farmers to perhaps pick up on the public good element that is mentioned. Could the Bill be stronger in terms of the net zero commitment?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
It is not a financial interest, but I should declare an interest as a former employee of the National Farmers Union. What does the Bill do for the regulatory environment in the United Kingdom? What is your assessment of how the Bill will affect that? Are you concerned about the risk of any regulatory divergence between the devolved nationsQ ?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
The main clause of the Bill provides Ministers with the power to make payments to farmers, which is most likely to be allocated on the basis of environmental improvements, not how land is farmed. The Bill does not give any clear guidance on how environmental improvements will be measured. Do you have any thoughts on thatQ ?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
I represent a rural constituency with a lot of dairy and arable, and some of the biggest fruit producers in the west midlands. Quite a lot of farmers have said to me that they are currently enrolled in things like countryside stewardship schemes, and they are going to transition over. Caroline, you mentioned the ELMS scheme. Does this Bill do enough to help them transition over to the new schemes? Are we doing enough to support farmers in the longer term? For example, I have people signing county farm tenancy agreements, which are for 10 years, but we have guaranteed payment for only five years over this parliamentary term. Are we doing enough to support them in the longer termQ ?
Nadia Whittome (Labour, Nottingham East)
I want to come back to the point about bringing sustainable food production closer to people’s lives. What measures could be added to the Bill to encourage local community schemes to reduce food poverty and improve good nutritionQ ?
Nadia Whittome (Labour, Nottingham East)
Q Perhaps I was being confusing by mentioning two things in my question. What can the Bill do to encourage local community food schemes to tackle food poverty and improve good nutrition?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of this session, but on behalf of the Committee, many thanks to our witnesses. You gave us invaluable information. Thank you very much indeed.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Q Welcome, witnesses. We have five of you, so this is going to be challenging to say the least. We will hear evidence from the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Rare Breeds Survival Trust, the Traceability Design User Group and Livestock Information Ltd. Would you please briefly introduce yourself?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I know that at least one of you has given evidence to these sessions before—maybe two or three of you—but please enjoy the session, which runs until 11.25 am.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The Bill explicitly recognises animal health and welfare and native breeds as a public good. In recent years, we have seen a specialisation in arable in some parts of the country and a concentration of livestock in others. Some say that we need to get livestock back on the lowlands, so that we have more permanent pasture, more crop rotation, more organic matter in the soil and so on. I wonder whether those of you who feel able might comment on the benefits of livestock in our land management and in the farming system.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I have just a couple of further points. Mr Bowles, you are right, this is the first time that a country has put as much ambition into rewarding high animal welfare outcomes as we do in the Bill. Your organisation runs the RSPCA Assured scheme. What lessons can we learn from that about having a payment-for-public-goods model for farmers who go above and beyond the regulatory baseline? Also, if I may, a question for Mr Hall: in terms of livestock traceability, are there market opportunities for us in having that higher health and higher welfare supply chain, which can be demonstrated through the project that you are working on?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I think at least three of the witnesses are part of organisations that were signatories to the letter to the Prime Minister at the end of last month warning about the potential risks of lower standards for imported food. Will those three witnesses, and perhaps others, comment briefly on what you think will be the effect of allowing imports of food produced to lower environmental welfare and health standards on consumers, producers and the environment?
Simon Jupp (Conservative, East Devon)
Should some financial assistance be provided for animal welfare activities that go beyond, for example, the legal minimal requirements and normal good practice? If so, what types of activities could that include?Q
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
The Bill contains a lot of powers rather than duties. To my mind, a duty means that the Secretary of State is more accountable. Do you think that the Bill should contain a duty for the Secretary of State to support all the public goods identified?Q
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q The Bill amends the red meat levy system, in that it irons out an imbalance that has often penalised Welsh and Scottish farmers. Do you think that is sufficient, or should the Bill contain further reforms around the red meat levy?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q This question is specifically for Mr Hall and Mr Cross, just about your organisations. Can you tell us, please, how you reformed; what your role is; what your governance rules are, and what jurisdiction you have in regard to Scotland and the devolved nations?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q But your focus is on England; is that right?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q So there is no suggestion of imposing a UK-wide scheme on devolved nations that already have their own.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
As you have elaborated, they already have quite developed traceability schemes
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q What are your governance rules, and how confident are you that the traceability set-up will be ready in time for the end of the year when we leave the EU?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q And your readiness for the end of the year?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q May I quickly return to the trade deals? Mr Cross, you said earlier that we must not export our conscience to other countries to import cheap, low-quality food from abroad. Quite right—we need to export our high standards, and I think we agree that the Bill is the opportunity to set a world-class benchmark model for regulating agriculture and sustainable farming.
My question is on behalf of our producers. The paradox is that everybody complains about the complexity of CAP, and farmers have a tough time filling in the forms. Of course, the principle of CAP is very simple: you just pay for the amount of land that you have. We are proposing to introduce a system with a lot more complex objectives—quite rightly—for all the different public goods. I share Ms Whittome’s point about the opportunity for community-based markets and more locally based producers—more local sourcing. Do we think that those community groups and small farmers will be able to navigate what sounds to an outsider like a very complex set of objectives, and therefore potentially some complex subsidy systems?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Are we going to have an army of new consultants coming in to help themselves to some of the public money?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q May I return to the regulatory baseline issue I raised with the previous witnesses? The RSPB was involved in the Institute for European Environmental Policy report published this week that suggests that, now we have left the EU, there is a real gap in the regulatory baseline because so many regulations were set at EU level. Is there a need for a firmer regulatory baseline in the Bill so that we know what we reward in terms of farmers going above that baseline, and so on?
Alicia Kearns (Conservative, Rutland and Melton)
Q This question is mainly for you, Mr Price. My constituency of Rutland and Melton has quite a few farmers who farm rare breeds. Is there sufficient support for rare breeds in the Bill? Conversely, is that support the right thing to be doing? My farmers who do not farm rare breeds would say that there is a question of fairness in giving too much support to rare breeds.
Alicia Kearns (Conservative, Rutland and Melton)
I thought you might, but you never know.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I should like to take you up a level, in the sense that since the initial iteration of this Bill, we have become very aware of the climate crisis and Parliament has declared a climate emergency. Do you think there is enough in this Bill to reflect that need for urgent action, particularly given the recommendations from the Committee on Climate Change on policies for net zero referred to earlier? If the NFU can look for a target for 2040, should there not be something in this Bill referencing that?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I am going to interrupt, because there are two colleagues who have been asking to put questions very quickly, Robert Goodwill and then Virginia Crosbie. Please put your questions to everyone.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q I have a very quick question: farmers are being incentivised to create habitats for ground-nesting birds, barn owls, red squirrels or hedgehogs. Do you feel that payment should be made for delivering those species, or would creating the habitat be enough? Would predator control be something that your members would be content with, if it were part of that management?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
And then Virginia Crosbie.
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Q My constituency is Ynys Môn, and I met my farmers recently. They think that they get quite a tough deal from the public and that it stems from the term “farm payments”, so they are looking forward to moving away from that, but they are equally concerned about “public money for public goods”. You talked earlier about communication and advice to farmers. How are we going to communicate this to the public?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I thank our witnesses very much for the time you have spent with us. The Committee is very grateful. If you feel that you were not given time to respond to colleagues’ questions, you can still submit evidence about those answers. The room will be locked, colleagues, and we start again at two o’clock in this room, where Mr Stringer will be in the Chair.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Ulster Farmers Union and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. Thank you very much for coming today. We have until 2.30 pm for this session. I would be grateful if you introduced yourselves for the record.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Thank you.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
I am sorry, but I wonder if we could ask the witnesses to speak up slightly.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
The acoustics in this room are appalling, which is nobody’s fault apart from the architect’s. If witnesses and members of the Committee could speak up, we would all be grateful. Thank you.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q39 Schedule 6 to the Bill has Northern Ireland-specific provisions, principally an ability and power to modify the legacy basic payment scheme—the common agricultural policy scheme. Will you explain what your priorities are to simplify and improve the legacy scheme? Secondly, do you have any emerging thoughts about future policy that you might make through your own Northern Ireland legislation?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q You mentioned that the rationale for an area payment might be resilience or as a risk-management tool, but it is ultimately a subsidy on land tenure or land ownership, so is it the best tool to deal with those issues? Or is it a straightforward market intervention—crisis payments when there is a slump in the market or a severe weather event, when you could intervene using the other crisis powers that are in the other part of the schedule?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
GoodQ afternoon, Mr Stringer. In the written evidence supplied, Mr Fulton, you raise a number of issues around divergence, both now and in future. Could you say a bit more about those issues? Could Mr Ferguson also comment on divergence?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q That is extremely diplomatic but I am not sure how that works. You are in either one system or another, are you not? Where is the halfway house?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q When you say disastrous, what do you mean?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
I repeat my declaration of interest: I was an employee of the National Farmers Union, and indeed of the Ulster Farmers Union when I was working in its office in Brussels a few years ago. I want to pick up on the points that were raised about divergence. On the point you just Q made about maintaining an area-based payment in case of volatility, what would be the consequence of different agricultural payment schemes operating throughout the UK?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q This question may be just for Mr Fulton, but both of you may care to comment. Agriculture is devolved, as you said, but the World Trade Organisation requirements for the agreement on agriculture are deemed to have been reserved. Will you comment further on whether schedule 6 gives DAERA the powers you need to meet the flexible requirements for Northern Ireland’s specific needs? Do you have anything to add to your comments in answer to the question from Fay Jones on how that regional variance will play out?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q You started to comment in response to Fay’s question about regional variations. Is there anything you want to add to that?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q You mentioned the word “hope” twice there. I am also hopeful, but we are here to deal with legislation. Do you think anything else needs to be added to the legislation to reduce the reliance on hope? Is the hope about negotiating aims, or is there something that should be in the Bill that currently is not?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
I seem to recall that in Northern Ireland, unlike in England, BPS payments have a maximum cut-off. That means that, although I assume you have to have cross-compliance on your entire holding, there is a maximum payment you can get. Might switching to more agri-environmental schemes result in some farms not delivering the public goods that they could deliver, because you would be limited in the amount you could give them? Do you think that, at that point, it would be worthwhile getting rid of the cap and allowing farms to participate fully on the all the land they have?Q
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q I suppose most farmers favour a cap as long as it is just over the amount they get paid. You also have a scheme where young farmers under the age of 40 who farm less than 90 hectares get a 25% additional payment. How effective is that? Has that just resulted in farmers passing on their farms early? Are farms tailoring their businesses to meet the rules, or do you see genuine benefits in having a young farmer payment?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Is that your experience as well, Mr Ferguson, from a farmer’s perspective?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q With regard to the regulatory and policy divergences between the four nations of the UK, I am lucky enough to have been on the Agriculture Bill Committee twice in the last two or three years, and I think I am right in saying that we heard from all the NFUs in the previous iteration of this Bill Committee. I recall all the NFUs being at pains to say that they currently operate different schemes and policies between themselves, as you would expect from organisations in devolved Administrations. There were discussions around common frameworks and how they would work once Brexit occurs; those organisations currently operate in Europe under common frameworks. However, the details of the future frameworks must be agreed, not imposed—I think that that was said right across the board by all the different NFUs. Is that something that you recognise and agree with?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q When you say single market, do you mean the internal market of the UK?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q The impression I got was that the relationship between the four NFUs is very good, and that you speak regularly about these sorts of thing.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
I am afraid that this will have to be the last question.
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
I will be very quick. What are your thoughts on the food security reports? The current Bill talks about them being produced every five years. Do you have any thoughts on the frequencyQ ?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no further questions, we have finished two minutes early. Thank you for your time.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear evidence from the NFU and the National Federation of Young Farmers’ Clubs. For this session, we have until 3 pm. Would you please introduce yourselves?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q You will be aware that clause 9 has quite a broad power giving the Government the ability to start simplifying and sorting out some of the complexity of the legacy CAP scheme, which we can deploy from as early as next year. What would be your priorities to improve the legacy scheme in the time until the new one is rolled out?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q In terms of helping new entrants and the next generation of younger farmers, what is most important for your members? Is it access to land at an affordable rent, or is it having an area-based subsidy system as we do now?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Has the NFU done any work on what a sustainable land rent is for different land types without the land tenure subsidy that we have through direct payments?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon. It is probably no surprise to you that my opening question will refer to the letter to the Prime Minister that the NFU and over 60 other organisations have written, expressing concern about the potential risks caused by imported food produced to lower environmental animal welfare or food quality standards. What needs to be done to this Bill to resolve that problem?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q My question is to Mr Goodwin. Are there any other means that you think should be included in the Bill that might give your members access to land—means that might increase the opportunities for young farmers and perhaps even new entrants into farming?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q May I quickly follow up on that? Are you happy with the proposed schedule for phasing out direct payments—moving away from an area-based payment and towards a system of public goods?
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Do you have any suggestions as to how the Bill could be improved specifically to enhance food production? The reason why I am asking is that I want to look at ways to ensure that poorer consumers are also able to benefit from the high requirements under the Bill—the requirements for a more sustainable, environmentally friendly way of delivering services. I am worried about poorer consumers being left outQ .
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q Can I ask a supplementary question?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Before you do, I have a large number of people indicating that they wish to speak. Please could Members and witnesses be brief.
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q I will be quick. You mentioned that you are waiting for DEFRA to give you further information. Have you highlighted to them which of your recommendations you want them to take forward?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Does the Bill include the right measures to give tenant farmers certainty over succession, tenancy length and security of tenureQ ?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
ThisQ is probably a question specifically for David Goodwin. What role do you see county farms playing, given that the Government and the Minister have in the past expressed support for reversing the decline in county farms? Is that something your members would be interested in?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Mr von Westenholz, the suggestion of insisting in the Bill that we only import food produced to the same standards as our farmers produce is absolutely the right principle, and the Government are committed to that in principle, but Q can you just talk us through the practicalities of what the relevant change to the legislation would be? I am just concerned about what it actually means to insist on equivalent standards. How would that be articulated in the Bill? Is that insistence not more appropriate to the trade negotiations, which will get into the actual detail of different sectors, important exports and so on? How would you frame that piece of legislation in a way that did not just open the door to all sorts of challenges on a concept that is not well defined?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I am not quite sure, but this question is possibly to both witnesses. The Bill is to a great extent an enabling Bill, and the words “the Secretary of State may” appear frequently. I wonder whether, were you going through the Bill with a red pen, you would change any of those mays to musts. In particular, I am looking at how we make the move from having been a full member of the EU and part of the WTO by virtue of that to completely being just on sole membership terms with the requirements of the agreement on agriculture. I am looking at any mays to musts and how to get to compliance with the agreement on agriculture.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I wanted to emphasise those provisions of the Bill that pertain to the WTO and ask whether any of those “mays” to “musts” were in that area.
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Mr Goodwin, in relation to the next generation of farmers, I would be interested to hear whether you have had any feedback from institutions and how you are working with universities and colleges to ensure that the next generation take advantage of this new legislationQ .
Abena Oppong-Asare (Labour, Erith and Thamesmead)
Q My question links in with Ms Crosbie’s question and is directed to Mr Goodwin. As you know, the ageing population of farmers is changing. Is there anything specific in the Bill that you think needs to be changed that could help more young individuals to go into farming? Is there something that you feel needs to be specifically looked into?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to turn to a different part of the Bill, chapter 2, and the provisions on fair dealing and transparency in the supply chain. Can you tell us which sectors suffer the most from a lack of transparency and fairness in the supply chain? Which are most likely to be price takers? What regulations or steps would you like the Government to take, under the powers in this Bill, to ensure that farmers are in a fairer position relative to others in the supply chain?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Let us turn to the delinking proposals for a moment. There does not seem to be a great deal of detail in there. The intention is to bring in new people, which we would support, but are there dangers of unintended consequences? Would you like to see more detail?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Returning to the volatility/stability question, the CAP was much derided in many quarters, but I would say it has delivered some of the goals that it originally set out to achieve, including a measure of stability. Apart from changing “might” to “must”, what other things would you like to see to ensure stability for the future?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for this session. I thank the two witnesses on behalf of the Committee. We will move on to the next evidence session.
Examination of Witness
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear oral evidence from Co-operatives UK, and we have until 3.30 pm. Welcome. Would you like to introduce yourself?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Are you broadly content with the powers in the Bill to modify the retained EU law on producer organisations in particular? Do you support the principle of moving away from the area-based subsidy payment we have now to a system of payment for public goods?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Coming back to exemptions, I think most are carried forward by the Bill. Specifically on dairy contracts, for example, co-operatives were excluded from the voluntary dairy code, but if we were to introduce a mandatory code under provisions in the Bill, they might not be. Will you explain why co-operatives are a special case that should be exempt from giving farmers clarity about how the milk price is calculated?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q In general, will the Bill help producer organisations? What more could be done? Why have we not traditionally done better in UK agriculture?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Why has the UK experience been different from that of other countries?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Will the measures in the Bill make it more likely that we go down that route in future, do you think—or not?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Is there anything you would like to see in the Bill that would help that to happen?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q From what you have just said, it appears that the structure of UK agriculture, with larger units, does not lend itself particularly well to co-operatives; whereas, on the continent, you have lots of small farmers who, for example, never get a fertiliser salesman on their farm for the size of their operation.
Do you think that, under the old system as part of the European Union, we have in many ways been trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole, and fit what is going on here into the way that we can access funds? How do you think in future we can actually produce a system to encourage co-operatives, of the sort that would maybe work in the UK, rather than trying to emulate those across the water?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q You have pretty much answered my question. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on how to do that. If it is a question of larger farmers naturally combining because they are more professional, as you imply, is it just a question of education and making clear the opportunities that are there? Information, not education, sorry—that was patronising.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q One of the criticisms of the fruit-and-veg PO regime in particular was that, apart from being very litigious because of the way in which the legislation was drafted, support could only be given to predominantly marketing co-operatives—marketing had to be their primary function. Some groups such as the British Growers Association and others have said that that is wrong. Would you support an approach with support for co-operatives to come together to do research and development, or as buyer groups, but not necessarily marketing in the traditional sense?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On the competition law side, what kind of exemptions or special provisions in law would you seek to enable the co-operative model to develop?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Are you content with the—I think—30% market share provision? So no co-operative is allowed to go above that—certainly with dairy.
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
Q Mr Self, in the agri-food supply chain, how well does the Bill move the power base away from the major retailers towards the farmer?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
WhatQ single change would you advocate if you had to prioritise a single change to the Bill, as currently drafted?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Q How long would that extension be?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Q What would your choice be? Would it be five years, or four years?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q I just want to pick up on the issue of transparency and fairness in supply chains. Would the fair dealing obligations in the Bill currently work with the existing groceries supply code of practice? I want to make sure that we have a consistent approach to fair dealing across the whole supply chain.
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q How do we ensure that the existing groceries supply code of practice is consistent, so that we have fair dealing across the whole supply chain?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I wanted to return to the issue of dairy contracts, and whether there should be a continuation of the special exemption for dairy co-operatives. What is the remedy for a farmer who finds himself trapped in a long-term contract in Arla, a huge pan-European co-operative, where he is not happy with the price he is getting or the way the organisation is being managed, but is unable to change either of them despite nominally having a share or stake in it? Should there be some rights for that individual member as well? Do the articles of association in co-operatives generally provide sufficient protection?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I suppose the key question is: if the views and interests of a British minority, for instance, were compromised by the majority in a big pan-European cooperative because of a decision taken, should they not be able to exit with a set notice period, for instance, and have a clear mechanism for doing so?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Earlier, you touched on some of the opportunities around data. Will you amplify on that? What support might be needed to make the most of those opportunities?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Is that an issue of scale, or an issue of co-operation?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q I have a question about risk management. I had to step out of the room, so I apologise if this has been covered. Often, farmers are at the very end of the supply chain and bear all the risk. We have a good example with the beef price at the moment, which is down very heavily at farm gate level but not so much at retail level. Could there be more in the Bill to provide more risk management support in the event of market volatility?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q That sounds very sensible. A huge advantage of a co-op system is that it can help its members share its red risk. It would be good for me, at another time, to understand more about the extent to which your members provide that kind of assurance mechanism for their members, but that is not my question. More abstractly, where do you think the opportunity is for a strengthened co-op movement in the regime that is to be introduced? Is it in enabling co-ops to partake in national and global markets, or in strengthening local production for local markets? I bet you are going to say both.
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Do you have a sense of where there is more opportunity? Are you part of the local, anti-food-miles movement, or do you say, “No, we can take part in the global economy”?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no more questions, I thank Mr Self, and we will move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear evidence from the Campaign to Protect Rural England, Kings Crops and the Holkham Estate. We have until 4.15 pm. Would the witnesses like to introduce themselves first?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
Before I move on to Mr Egan, may I say that this is a huge room and the acoustics are terrible, so can people speak up?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Will you each tell us what you think have been the main shortcomings of the existing area-based common agricultural policy; whether we can, in the short term, modify it to make it work more smoothly; and whether you support the general premise in the Bill of, in the longer term, a move away from subsidies on land tenure to support for the delivery of public goods?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Do you support the general thrust of the future policy, moving from subsidy on land tenure to—
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q If at one end of the scale you have what could be called the broad and shallow but largely universal interventions that most farmers would sign up to—catchment sensitive farming or hedgerows—and at the other end you have land use change through peatland restoration or new woodland being established, what should be the balance between those competing priorities in order to really deliver for the environment?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Yes, in the new scheme.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I want to put to you a question I asked earlier witnesses. I think that the CPRE was one of the signatories to the letter to the Prime Minister expressing concern about the potential problems with importing food with lower environmental, welfare and health standards. Why did you sign that letter and what should be done in the Bill to tackle the issue? That is particularly aimed at Graeme.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Thank you; that is helpful. Jim and Jake, you are very enthusiastic and positive about the change on uptake in stewardship. That has been a long time coming, has it not? What has changed so dramatically, in your view, to make that happen? In the transformation of ELMs, would you agree that it would have been helpful for this discussion and process to have a bit more detail about the Government’s thinking on how it will work?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q May I press you on that point? This is a big transition that is envisaged, possibly over a compressed timeframe. Is there the capacity to provide the advice and to do the negotiation? If there is not, what needs to be done to get it in place?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Many land managers derive significant income from the sporting potential of their farms or estates—not just from the sale of game, but from the people who pay to stalk or shoot or to catch salmon in their rivers. Indeed, before agri-environmental schemes came in, the farms and estates managed in that way were probably the ones already doing what we want them to do now. How important do you think it is that any new schemes under ELM dovetail in with the way that these estates are being managed? Do we need to take particular account, for example, of grouse moors and the uplands, where we have a fragile environment that, if managed in a different way, could well revert to what some might see as a carbon sink, but others would see as a downgrading of that precious environment?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Is that blanket bog or the dried heathland and moorland?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Could ELMS incentivise those positive changes?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Did you just say that game should be taken out of the Bill altogether because it is a leisure pastime, not an agricultural pastime?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q I thought that the whole justification for game shooting was that people eventually eat the birds, even though we know that they could not possibly consume as many as were shot. Perhaps we will agree to disagree on that issue.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q You have farmed game birds that are released into the world to be shot.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Well, we probably do not have time to go into that. This is probably a question for Graeme, to start with, but others can chip in if they wish. I have two quick questions. First, still on the management of peatlands issue, game shooting and particularly grouse shooting can be very lucrative for estate owners. Is the mechanism in the Bill about rewarding farmers who re-wet the peatland or manage the moors in a certain way ever likely to be enough to encourage them to do it, or do we need the ban that you are talking about?
My other question is that you mentioned your views about county farms, and I am keen to see what you think should be in the Bill. I think there is general support for the idea that county farms are a good thing, but that does not necessarily mean that they need to go into the Bill. Can you say what you think needs to be in the Bill on that front?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q And the climate change thing, possibly.
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Mr Egan, you mentioned that inspection regimes have to be fit for purpose. Which regimes do you think need to be changed under the new legislation? I am also interested to understand from you what success looks likeQ .
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
In terms of the scheme.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q On the face of it, the Bill seems to be for the support of farmers, crofters and agricultural activities. Getting back to what you were saying, Mr Fiennes, about grouse moors, it sounded that you thought their activity should not be part of the Bill, yet in part 1 of the Bill, the clauses around financial assistance are certainly drawn loosely enough that it could apply to shooting estates, as well.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Okay. Do you think it is appropriate, then, that shooting estates receive financial assistance as a result of the Bill? If not, should it be redrawn more tightly, so that they could be excluded? Is that what you think?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q I hear what you say. Do you think it is appropriate that financial assistance could be given to those estates as a result of clauses within the Bill, or do you think that the clauses should be redrawn to exclude those estates?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Okay. Would those be the views of Mr Willis and Mr Egan as well?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I return to Mr Egan’s point about the control and enforcement regime. If you are close to the schemes, you will be aware that the introduction in the latest EU scheme of a common commencement date—so that everybody had to start at the same time, which caused all the predictable administrative problems for everyone—combined with the introduction of the IACS enforcement regime drove the terrible, draconian regime that you describe.
One thing we have described for the future scheme is that you would instead leave all that behind, and individual farms would have a trusted, accredited adviser on agri-environment schemes. That could be a trusted, accredited agronomist, or someone who works for the Wildlife Trust or the RSPB, and they would be trained to help put the schemes together. They would visit the farm, walk the farm with their boots on and then sit around the kitchen table and help an individual farmer construct a scheme.
We are obviously testing and piloting and trialling that now. If that system could be made to work—an altogether more human system, as you said, because a trusted adviser would do the initial agreement and would maybe visit the farm three or four times a year, not to inspect but to be a point of advice—how many farms can a single agri-environment adviser with that type of remit realistically do?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Based on your assessment of 40 or 50, you would need somewhere in the region of 1,500 to 1,800 of those in England to cover most farms. Is there capacity at the moment in the agronomic and environment NGO world to allow people to go for training and accreditation? Or is it your view that it would be better simply to recruit additional staff at Natural England or the RPA to do it?
Fay Jones (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q Clause 13 provides the power to opt out of direct payments in favour of a lump sum, and therefore opt out of agri-environment schemes. Do you see that as a risk of losing a skillset within the agricultural sector or an opportunity for new entrants and new ideas?
Sarah Dines (Conservative, Derbyshire Dales)
Q This question is for Mr Egan. I represent Derbyshire Dales, which is a very large constituency. As well as many large estates, there are many small farms. I was interested in your answer to the Minister about the point that you made in your written statement, that funding should be available for professional advice to ensure that we maximise the environmental benefits. How could that realistically be achieved for my small farmers, who, historically, have been reluctant to take advice due to independence, or simply could not afford to? There are a lot of young farmers—between 20 and 30—in my constituency. How could that be achieved, however admirable it is? What is your advice?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Since the previous Agriculture Bill started, obviously the world has changed in some ways. There is a greater understanding of the climate crisis that we are facing. More work has been done by the Government’s Committee on Climate Change, including very detailed suggestions for land-use management released only a few weeks ago. Would you expect to see some of those proposals begin to make their way into a Bill such as this, and are you surprised, as I am, that there is no aspiration within the Bill to hit a net-zero target at some point?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q I very much agree with you about the complex interaction between the pieces of legislation, but we know that the sector produces a certain amount. Could there not be a target for the sector?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q I am trying to get my head around the deal in payments with respect to an early retirement scheme. When answering an earlier question, you talked about the way it could affect the value of the land. Could there be a situation in which a tenant takes the money and runs, and then the landowner is looking for a new tenant but without the agricultural support? It is difficult to attract one. How will the environment be managed if the payments that would have been forthcoming for the environmental land management schemes were not there? What would happen in practice in a situation where a tenant takes early retirement and takes the money, and then expects the landlord to pick up the pieces?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On that point: do we want land rents to stay as high as they are? Would it not potentially be beneficial for landlords to have to fight one another to attract tenants on to their land?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for attending today on behalf of the Committee.
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
We will now hear evidence from the Country Land and Business Association and the Tenant Farmers Association. We have until 5pm. Welcome; please introduce yourselves.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I will ask a question that I asked the National Farmers Union earlier: if we had a world in which there were no basic payment scheme payments—no subsidy on land, tenure or occupation—and tenants came in and only paid the rent on which they could still turn a profit, what is the correct value of land rents in an upland area, or a typical lowland area?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I suppose the point I was making was less to do with the market. If you removed from the market the roughly £100 per acre basic payment scheme payment—if that just vanished—what is the land then worth to rent? I am assuming that it was a market rent, but it would become, potentially, a buyers’ market rather than a sellers’ market, as now.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I have a linked question, although it might be too complex to answer. From the CLA’s point of view, at what point does it cease to be worth renting land and start to make more sense to bring it in hand and farm it yourself without a subsidy?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On tenancy issues, your organisations famously do not always agree, but on the future direction of travel for policy, do you both agree that a move from an area-based subsidy to payment for the delivery of public goods is the right way to go for agriculture policy? If you have any concerns about the development of that, what are your key concerns about what might go wrong in that transition?
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Good afternoon. In general, what changes would you like to see that would improve this Bill, from your point of view? I am particularly looking at George.
Daniel Zeichner (Labour, Cambridge)
Q Do you envisage that measures in the Bill will affect the lengths of tenancies that are negotiated?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q It is very good to hear that you both support the direction of travel of the Bill. We heard earlier from witnesses who were explaining how, under the direct payments system, it is often possible for the landlord to simply hold the subsidy and for the tenant not to receive the benefit. Do you think that the new system will align your interests? Can you give us an example where, possibly, the landlord and the tenant might disagree about an improvement? Perhaps the tenant wants to gain some support for sequestration or planting trees or whatever, but the landlord is in disagreement. Do you think that we are setting up conflict between landlord and tenant? Perhaps, Ms Hammond, you could imagine a really bad tenant and, Mr Dunn, you could imagine a really bad landlord. What would you be fighting over?
Danny Kruger (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Do you mean that there should be an appeals mechanism, or do you think ultimately that you should not have to take the ruling of the arbitration at all?
Simon Jupp (Conservative, East Devon)
HowQ much confidence does the Bill and the general direction of travel give your members to renew tenancies?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I would like to push you a little further on the security question. I recognise there are some differences here, but I think it is partly being presented as a question of equality, of a negotiation between equals. It does not quite seem that way from where I am sitting. Can we explore further whether more measures could go into the Bill to get the balance right for members of both organisations, but particularly Mr Dunn’s members, for whom it is presumably harder to get land if they are moved from a particular piece of land than it is from Ms Hammond’s members to get new tenants if the tenant has moved. Forgive me if I have got that wrong.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Oh, please don’t call it that!
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q Mr Dunn, I was struck by your comment about tenancies being too short and the fact that people are just staying 2.9 years and not longer. In my constituency I have a lot of county farms, but I also have a real problem with the lack of a new generation coming through. One thing farmers have raised with me is that because the subsidies will not necessarily continue beyond this Parliament, they can plan for five years, but not for 10 years. Is there anything specific we can add into the Bill to address that specific problem? I totally agree that this longer-term issue is the problem. If I am a county farmer in Stafford, I cannot submit a 10-year business plan because the Government are only guaranteeing it for the first Parliament term. Is there anything specific we can do to address that?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q Is the delegated power included in this Bill, which allows the Government to extend the transition period, a good enough safety net if things did go wrong in the future?
Theo Clarke (Conservative, Stafford)
Q In what way?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Chapter 2, clause 8 deals with the possible extension of the period. I may not understand it particularly well, but it does not make it clear whether, if there is an extension to the seven-year period, that would pause the transition from BPS to ELMS, or whether that would just continue, but at the end of the seven years there would be an extra year or two under the full ELMS system. If there was an extension, at the same time, could that be coupled with a freeze in the transition for a number of reasons, including that the ELMS was not being taken up as quickly?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q A previous witness said that if a tenant farmer exercised an option that we set out under clause 13 to take a number of years payment in lieu as a lump sum, under the way tenancy agreements tend to be drafted, the landlord would say that was a dilapidation and would take compensation off the tenant farmer. That seemed a rather extraordinary extension of the conventional interpretation of dilapidation. What would your respective views on that be?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The final question from me is about schedule 3, which sets out in some detail a range of quite technical changes to tenancy law that have come out of the TRIG—the Tenancy Reform Industry Group—recommendations. Are you both content with what is being proposed for those changes to the commercial unit test and so on?
Ruth Jones (Labour, Newport West)
Q My question is to you, Mr Dunn, with your expert Welsh agricultural hat on, if you please. Given that the Welsh Government will not legislate until, at the very earliest, the middle of 2021, and given that the payments for the direct payment schemes will begin to diverge across the UK, what do you think the consequences will be?
Graham Stringer (Labour, Blackley and Broughton)
If there are no more questions for Members, I thank the witnesses for giving evidence this afternoon.