Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 21 May 2019.
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points. Please switch electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the limited time available, I hope we can agree those matters without too much debate. I call the Minister to move the programme motion, which was agreed by the Programming Sub-Committee yesterday.
TABLE
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Copies of written evidence the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room. We may now discuss our lines of questioning. If there are no requests, we will move on to hear oral evidence.
Examination of Witnesses
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Good morning, everyone. We will now hear oral evidence from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the British Veterinary Association, and Freedom for Animals. I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme order the Committee has agreed. We have until 10.30 am for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Thank you. I am happy to take questions.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Thank you for coming. There seems to be lots of cross-party agreement on the principle behind the Bill—that wild animals should not be in circuses for our entertainment—but we have some questions about the detail of the Bill, and in particular the definition of a travelling circus. They stem from the desire to make sure the Bill is as comprehensive as possible, to ensure that in the future there will be no wiggle room or loopholes. What is your view of the current definition in the Bill? Is it sufficient, or could it be tightened upQ ?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
The RSPCA referred to the requirement for police constables to carry out checks and enforcement, as well as inspectors. Can you talk us through thatQ ?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q What would be the consequences of not having police constables available to do that?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q And the very nature of a travelling circus means that it is transient, so we must have people available there and then to inspect.
Rosie Duffield (Labour, Canterbury)
What is the panel’s opinion on the current state of wild animals in circuses? Are the guidelines being enforced strongly enough?Q
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
I am a great supporter of this Bill and supported the proposal when it was made in a private Member’s Bill promoted by Q my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince). May I check a couple of things? They may seem a little peripheral. First—this may sound the maddest question of all—are all circuses across Europe travelling by definition, or are there any permanently located circuses?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q Ms Dos Santos, in answer to an earlier question you referenced educational purposes. Will you clarify where you think pony rides, donkey rides and falconry displays sit? Although those animals are not travelling long distances regularly, they do a huge amount of travelling in the season. Would you like to see those things included in the scope of the Bill, or are we best to leave that for another time?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q You are satisfied that they are effectively outwith the scope of the Bill.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q My final question speaks to Mrs Harrison’s question but it relates to inspectors. Inspectors are only as good as their powers. One thinks about the debate about police constables and police community support officers, for example. Do you envisage that there is enough under either the proposals or existing inspectory powers for inspectors to be able to go in and see each and every part of a travelling circus to satisfy themselves, and that they have the weapons and armoury to act in a speedy and expeditious way should they find a breach of what we hope will be the Act?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q To police constables?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q On the issue of seizing an animal, I can understand how one might be able to seize a racoon, a fox or a squirrel. However, If it was something larger—for example, a camel—or if somebody was seriously in breach of the Act, one then has to think about the resources of high-welfare standards for kennelling purposes, in a general sense. I do not detect that there is a resource out there. People who have to round up dogs have enough difficulty. Were one to move in that direction, how do you meet that challenge?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Can I ask everyone to speak up? This is a dreadful room for acoustics. It would be really helpful. I am certainly struggling at this end of the table. I am sure everyone must be having the same problem.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Is that an invitation to repeat all my questions?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
I was leaning forward to make sure that I could hear everything. My apologies for the room. The microphones are at their maximum, so there is nothing else I can do except ask people to speak up. A lady at the back has also indicated that she cannot hear, so it is not just me.
If Members have one or two questions that they want to run together, I am more than happy for them to do so. You do not have to limit yourself to one. Equally, if you want to come back later with another question, I am happy with that.
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Some of the people who argue that we should not pass the Bill or that we should water it down say that we need to be much stricter about the definition of wild animals. In particular, they say that if animals are born and bred and live all their lives in a circus environment and know nothing else, it is wrong for us to take them away from that environment. What is your view of the animal welfare of animals that are born and bred in a circus environment and have lived there all their livesQ ?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q What would you say to the argument that because animals are used for other purposes in other countries, that means that it is all right to use them to perform tricks in circuses in this country?
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Each of you has made the very good point that this is about travelling circuses; we need to have effective legislation, as people move around the country. And you have mentioned the Scottish definition and how you feel that it would be beneficial if this Bill were to include that definition. It is my understanding that the Welsh Assembly has a draft Bill as well, so could you comment on the draft Bill and how compatible you feel that that is with the Scottish legislation and potentially this BillQ ?
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q What is really reassuring, from what you say, is that this can be dealt with either in the Bill or in guidance, and clarity and consistency can be achieved. You mentioned Scotland, and we have had a discussion about the role of the police in enforcement. It is my understanding that Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs inspectors have an important role to play in animal welfare. Would you comment on that and whether you feel that anything more could be considered alongside this Bill, in terms of the powers that the DEFRA animal welfare inspection regime has?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Before we proceed, I remind everyone that it can be tempting to think of this session as a personal conversation between the person asking the question and the person replying. The rest of us would like to be involved. When you ask a question, please make sure that I can hear it—and everyone else at this end of the room—and also when giving the replies. Especially with women, there is tendency to lower the voice; do not do that. Just pretend you are a man and yell.
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q I want to come back to the point about the DEFRA inspections. DEFRA has a huge amount of expertise on animal welfare and has teams looking at the misuse of farm animals, as well as domesticated animals. Why do you feel that additional powers need to be given to the police over and above those that DEFRA animal welfare officers have?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
OneQ of the things we were constantly told as we discussed this issue in Parliament over the last eight years, was that we could not introduce a ban because the EU would not let us. Now, 16 EU countries have—I hope—successfully introduced a ban. Can you tell us how it has worked in those countries? Has there been any need for enforcement or has the law been complied with? Are there any lessons we can learn from how those EU countries have done it?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Presumably, if it had been problematic it would have been more likely to have reached your attention than if it had worked well.
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Before I proceed, gentlemen, if any of you are finding it close in here, please feel free to take your jackets off.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Tell me how I can ask this question, because it slightly relates to my own patch but I suspect it might relate to other places as well. I represent an island and we have lots of lovely falconers on the island. They do great shows in the summer but they sometimes also travel with their birds to the mainland. I do not know if I am asking you or whether I am just highlighting a point for the civil service team. I have assumed the definition of a travelling circus and it includes irregular or regular travelling. If it is irregular travelling, at what point do falconers, be they in Scotland or from the Isle of Wight, risk becoming a travelling circus? I would not want this law to be used against those people, first, because they are my constituents and secondly, because that is not the purpose of this law. Are we assuming that the definition of travelling circus is tight enough not to be used against people such as falconers, who might go and spend a night or two away from home with their birds?Q
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
The questions are specifically for the witnesses and not for the civil servants.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q I am sure the civil servants have heard. Would the witnesses like to comment?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Our attention should be on the witnesses.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Thank you so much for your guidance, as ever.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q So you want greater clarity. You are saying that the list—I have not seen the list—means that falconry is specifically excluded in the Scottish Act. You would like to see that same list applied to this Bill as well.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q What is your opinion on falconry? Do you think it is cruel the way people train hawks and other hunting bird species for these shows?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Can you see the RSPCA calling for the ban of falconry at some point in the next decade or so, or is that not on your horizon at all?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Having read your evidence, clearly we are all mindful of the point about circuses preventing wild animals from roaming, especially larger ones and so on. Is there the same strong case for small animals? There are very few numbers of travelling circus animals in this country. There are 19, I think, of which two are raccoons. Raccoons are not the same as zebra and much larger animals. They still need space but, if they are semi-tame, do they occupy the same moral ground as larger animals, in your opinion?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q You are assuming 100% that that is likely. You say “people” think that—I would agree that a lot of people do, but I am not sure everybody does. You are slightly assuming that it is everybody.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q We have a fantastic zoo on the Island, which has some tigers that came from fairly horrible travelling circuses. I understand that the conditions they have now are much better than the conditions they had then. We know that there is a strong case for not having wild animals in circuses; are you saying there is enough of a gap between how well circuses treated animals and how well zoos treat animals, so we do not have the same problems letting animals be themselves in zoos? Does that question make sense? Do you see what I am trying to get at? Do zoos meet the required standard for caring and looking after animals compassionately, especially regarding the space arguments?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q After the Second Reading debate when we talked about the 19 wild animals, I had a message from someone that asked, “Are they going to be destroyed or rehomed? What about the fox—how do you rehome a fox?” That was an interesting question because it showed that as a nation of animal lovers, we are concerned about what will happen to those 19 animals. Currently there is no provision in the Bill that prevents animals from being destroyed if taken off their owners. Is that something that you think is necessary, or are you sure that there are enough good homes out there for the zebus, zebras and raccoons, so they can be rehomed in a safe and decent way?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Can I ask about the seizure of animals? In your written evidence you talked about the ability to deprive those convicted of the offences of the animals. It is implicit in the Bill that wild animals should not be kept after the Bill becomes law, but there is no provision in there to authorise the taking of those animals from their current owners. Do you think that requirement should be in the Bill, to make that crystal clear so that there is no doubt that current owners of wild animals should not have them after the Bill comes into force?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q This was picked up in the answer that Nicola gave a moment ago about public views towards this. My sense from the research and the consultation that the last Labour Government did on this, albeit a decade ago, is that there is massive overwhelming public support for this actually being put into law. From your point of view, and from the experience of Scotland and other countries that have done this, is there a reaction afterwards? Are the general public coming back and saying, “Where are the zebras in the circus display?”? They are actually supportive of this?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Have you seen a movement of animals from countries that have implemented bans, such as Scotland, into countries that have not? Would this effectively encourage a trade in circus animals, such as raccoons being shipped from England to a country that would continue to allow them to be exhibited in circuses?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
ToQ look at some of the practical applications of this, in relation to your answer to the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, in Scotland—my knowledge relates to the operation of this in a Scottish context—there would be a general power of forfeiture at the end of a prosecution, made on the motion of the prosecutor. Would you not have the same power in England?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q So an express power of forfeiture would be necessary in the Bill?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q Thank you, that is helpful. To pick up the point that the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth made about the interaction between DEFRA inspectors and police constables, is it your understanding that in practical terms operating DEFRA inspectors will get new powers under this Bill?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q In practical terms, is it not the case that their inspections will for the most part be focused on animal welfare considerations, rather than on prosecution?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q The point I am driving at is that there is a difference between someone focusing on acquiring evidence, if that is the main purpose of their job—as it would be for a police constable—and the approach that might be taken by somebody whose primary concern and function relates to the maintenance of animal welfare standards. I do not want to put words in your mouth but, for the benefit of the written record, you need to give me some.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q Also, in practical terms, is it not the case that a lot of the time we will at least need to take a multi-agency approach? If you are a DEFRA inspector going into a situation, you may want police constables in attendance with you. Is that also fair comment?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q If you have people there exercising functions under the Act, does it not make good sense for everybody to have powers to gather evidence in the normal way?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Thank you very much for your contributions, which are much appreciated. When DEFRA carried out its public consultation, 95% of the public supported a ban. I am interested in your views, either anecdotally or through any other survey data that you have seen, on whether the public’s view has changed significantly since that time, which was 10 years ago.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Questions have been raised around seizures and disqualification. Under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, there are powers for seizure. This Bill would be based on a rationale of ethics, as we discussed on Second Reading. If there are any animal welfare issues, the enforcement powers would be available to seize the animal under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. The courts are also empowered to disqualify those who have held those animals. Notwithstanding your concerns, those are strong powers. Do you accept that they will have some real weight in this area?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q There has been a lot of discussion around travelling circuses in Scotland and Wales. The Governments there—in their various stages of taking this legislation through—have not felt the need to define what a circus is, and neither did the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee when it was dealing with its evidence. Should we have a different approach here?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
BirdsQ are covered by the Bill because the Animal Welfare Act 2006 defines an animal as being a vertebrate. Is that correct?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Are there any birds that would still be able to perform in a travelling circus if this Bill was passed?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Would that be birds that are commonly kept as pets, such as budgerigars and parrots?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q What about birds used in magic shows such as doves? Would they be covered?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q So they could be covered by the Bill?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Falconry displays go back to the middle ages and are long-established events. Is falconry and keeping a falcon equivalent to domesticating a falcon or not?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q They would remain wild. In your evidence from the RSPCA, you suggest that you wanted a wider definition of “travelling circus” to include any company or group that travels from place to place to give performances, displays or exhibitions involving wild animals either being kept or introduced for display. If that definition was adopted, why would that not include the sort of activity referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight: falconers from the Isle of Wight doing shows on the mainland?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q If a travelling circus did a deal with one of the falconers in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight to do some shows, introducing the falconry exhibition as part of the show, would that be covered by this Bill?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q If one of those falconers decided, rather than travelling back to the Isle of Wight every night, to make arrangements with farmers to put birds in a particular aviary overnight and do a tour, would they be covered by the Bill?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Is it not true that if your definition of a travelling circus was included, it would make it more likely that falconers would be covered?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q But you are still arguing that the wider definition that you give in paragraph 3.2 of your evidence—a definition that is not in the Bill—is needed. You want that.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
I am a strong supporter of this Bill, but I just wanted to find out where we are with birds.
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Thank you very much for your evidence this morning. It is clear that there is support for the Bill not only in Parliament but in the wider public, as we have heard. Given that you here to give evidence and given your level of expertise, can you remind us of the reason and purpose of this Bill? Please set out as specifically as you can the impact that being in circuses has on the welfare and mental and physical health of wild animals. Why are we here? Why is the Bill behind public opinion? Can you reiterate from an evidence-based, veterinary perspective why it is wrong to have wild animals in circusesQ ?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
We have five minutes left for this panel. I currently have five Members who wish to ask a question, and I intend to take those who have not yet done so. May I please ask everyone to be succinct?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
On the points you made about human gratification and being moved from place to place, how far does that go? Although Q horses, for example, are not wild animals, they are ridden, used for human gratification and moved around to races for three-day events. Is that inherently cruel?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q Just on that point, is there a distinction, in that wild animals would feel more traumatised than domesticated animals?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
You talk very compellingly about wild animals in circuses and their welfare. There is nothing in the Bill about domesticated animals in circuses. Do you have any views about whether that should be in scope, or whether there are welfare needs of domesticated animals that are not currently addressedQ ?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q I want to ask quickly about the problem that might arise if there is nothing in the Bill about the seizure of the animals and care for them afterwards. There was an allegation in the evidence we have been sent that, after the ban was introduced in Mexico, a large number of animals were destroyed. Do you think that powers to seize animals and ensure that they are properly cared for afterwards would be important parts of any Bill that was going to protect the animals?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
Single-word answers and quickly, please.
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Thank you.
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions—we really do count it down in seconds in this place. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee for their evidence and Committee members for being so tolerant and withdrawing questions at the end.
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
We will now hear oral evidence from Animal Defenders International, the Born Free Foundation, and PETA. We have until 11.25 am for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q I would like to ask about the definition of a travelling circus, especially from an international perspective, given that a number of countries have similar bans. Do you think the definition needs more clarity in the Bill, and if so, are there good examples that we could learn from in those countries that have banned wild animals in circuses?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q This question is similar to the one that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East asked the previous panel about the international experience of this ban. Do these bans work internationally? Where are they working best, and are there lessons to be learned not only from the laws that ban wild animals in circuses, but how those laws are implemented and enforced?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q There is a sense sometimes that Britain is leading the way in animal welfare. In some areas we are, but in this area we seem to be very slow and a proposal that was initially put forward by the last Labour Government—that was when I had brown rather than grey hair, it was that long ago—has taken a very long time to get here. Are there any lessons that can be learned about how these types of issues can be hurried through? Are there things that have changed in the period when this was first proposed that you think are missing from the Bill as it currently stands?
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q I would like to come back to some of the questions I was asking before, given the breadth of your experience. This is about enforcement. In our country we have got the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and quite well defined animal welfare standards. DEFRA inspectors have a lot of power to make sure animals are properly cared for and, if they find that they are not, to confiscate and prosecute. I represent a large rural constituency. Most of my farmers, of course, are fantastic farmers, but, sadly, we do have some quite notorious prosecutions for very poor animal welfare, and the powers have worked really well.
Some of the witnesses have suggested to us that in addition to the existing DEFRA regulatory framework, our police force should be involved. What value, if any, do you think that that would bring? Can you draw on your international experience? Who is best placed to do the enforcement?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Some of the rarest birds are new world parrots—macaws. They are threatened with extinction. Some of them are hybridised for the pet market, so there are parrots—macaws—that could be classified as pets and as commonly domesticated. We have heard from the RSPCA that certain birds—budgerigars and parrots—are probably not covered by the Bill. Do you think we need a bit of clarity about this? If animals that are close to extinction are not covered, that would clearly be wrong. One of the animals listed among the 19 currently in travelling circuses, is, of course, a blue and gold macaw. I wondered what your thoughts were.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q If I could just interrupt you, we have heard from the RSPCA that there are birds that would be considered domesticated.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q I mentioned parrots and budgerigars.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q I would be worried if parrots that are close to extinction were not covered by the Bill.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
So you do not think it needs clarifying at all.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q You are happy that it is pretty clear which birds are or are not protected, and there is no need for me to worry.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
And you are happy with how it will work in future if the Bill is passed.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Circuses can have magic acts, which often use doves. Is that a problem? Would they be domesticated or not?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q So dove acts would be acceptable. Finally, some falconry acts fly with a lure, and there are other birds such as owls in the display. If one of those acts was contracted by a travelling circus, would that be covered or not?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q The RSPCA has defined a travelling circus as
“any company/group…which…travels from place to place…giving performances, displays or exhibitions”
with wild animals, and so on. If we were to accept that definition, would that cover the falconry activity that Bob Seely was talking about earlier, where an act would go out from the Isle of Wight to the mainland and do a tour, in effect?
Rosie Duffield (Labour, Canterbury)
Q As I understand it, an important part of the work your organisations do is to trace where these animals may have come from, and the 19 listed are not native to the UK. Will the Bill help you in that work, particularly in working with DEFRA and perhaps the police? Would it strengthen your powers to trace those origins and perhaps return those animals to their original home?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
This bans the use of wild animals. I had an initial thought: “Why would any travelling circus take a redundant wild animal along with it, because it would cost money to feed it?” However, recognising that circus organisers and animal trainers will love their animals and will have developed a bond over many years, there is the risk of animals travelling with the circus but not being usedQ . Could their welfare be even more at risk because they may not get the attention and exercise that would have come from performing? Do you also agree that that is a risk to those existing animals and potentially to animals that are bred from them in the future?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q In the interest of animal welfare, is it more important that we ban the wild animals from accompanying the circus, or that we have a transition plan in place for each and every one of the 19 wild animals?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q I would like to return to protection of animals that are currently in circuses and, indeed, protection of any animals that might be introduced into circuses in the future. First, have you had any experience in other countries of animals being put down as a result of bans? Do you know of that happening? Secondly, do you agree that we need to have in the Bill powers of seizure, and powers to ensure safe and sensible rehousing or rehabilitation of animals that are seized to protect their welfare?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q Also, you mentioned one circus trying to reintroduce elephants in this country. Three of the respondents to this Bill have suggested that elephants and lions could and possibly would be reintroduced to circuses in this country, even under the current licensing regime. Therefore, do you believe that, if possible, we should introduce this ban sooner than 20 January 2020?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Are you and other welfare groups happy that there are sufficient powers in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 for the police to intervene and take action against circuses and owners who abuse animals in the traveling circus format that we are talking about?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q I am very grateful to Oliver Heald for doing such a good job defending the rights of Island falconers. However, on a serious point, this is not only about people in remote places who cannot necessarily go back to the animal’s home overnight. I know that the previous three individuals answered this question, and I would like you to do so as well. I want to make sure that, in your opinion, there will not be wiggle room in the Act for falconers—whether they are in Scotland or the Shetland islands or Cumbria or Cornwall or the Isle of Wight, where you have to travel, where they could be away—to be challenged by animal welfare campaigning groups such as yourselves over the way they treat those animals if some of their work away where the animals are held captive and live is seen to be irregular. What is your opinion on that?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q I think the answer to that is that I cannot imagine a circumstance where it becomes so irregular and so often that it would potentially qualify. The problem is, as we know from the Government over the years, unintended consequences are often the consequences of things that were not intended in the first place, so the less wiggle room there is, the better the clarity of the law and the better people know the guidelines within which they can operate. Would you agree?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Out of interest, do you think that show jumping or falconry are inherently cruel? You could say that they are not what wild animals are there for. Therefore, there are animal rights campaigners who would say that we should outlaw racing—so goodbye, Cheltenham—falconry and show jumping, and that we should get rid of a lot of those things because we are forcing animals to do something that is unnatural for them, even if they have done it for generations. What is your opinion on that?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q You used the words “free to choose”. Animals respond to their behaviour types; they do not have freedom of choice in the same way that humans do. When you talk about being free to choose, you are getting into a grey area, are you not? A lot of people would dispute the idea that animals are free. Okay, going to a circus is not natural behaviour for an animal—I get that—but what about galloping with a human on?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Thank you for your contributions. Do you as groups agree that societal attitudes towards wild animals in circuses have changed over time? Why do you think that might be? What are the drivers of that? I am interested in your thoughts about public perception.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q On the discussion about defining travelling circuses in the Bill, there are concerns, which we have discussed at length, that defining them too narrowly may mean that certain activities, such as falconry, cannot happen. It sounds as if you would be quite understanding of an approach that involved using guidance to define things more clearly. I think one of you actually said that might be a more flexible approach that could adapt to changing circumstances in the years ahead. Obviously, primary and secondary legislation can take time. It would be interesting to hear your more definitive views on that. If we were to move forward with guidance, would your organisations be willing to get involved in that process and help review it?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q I wanted to go back to Angie’s written submission, which talks about the circus animals suffering. There is a general understanding that banning wild animals from circuses is a good thing, and we want to do that, but I have not yet heard—apart from in small bits—about the levels of suffering that we have in circuses at the moment. There is a sense that that has already been banned, so any animals that are already there must be well treated; otherwise, how would people pay money to go to a circus if they felt animals were not well treated? Can you give us a sense of your assessment of the welfare of the animals we have in circuses in the UK currently? What is the best way to assess the wellbeing of an animal in any type of captive environment, especially one where they are subject to so much touring and travelling?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Are there any concerns at the moment that the keepers and those who are employed to look after wild animals in circuses are, in themselves, doing things that are deliberately cruel? Or is it the fact that keeping wild animals in circuses is, as a practice, cruel? Do you have any examples of mistreatment of animals currently?
Madeleine Moon (Labour, Bridgend)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Good afternoon everyone and, in particular, welcome to our two witnesses. I say immediately to our witnesses that parliamentarians are as not as ghastly as they are painted. We are used to being robust with each other but we do understand that, for our witnesses, this is often the first time you have done such a thing, so deep breaths, relax and enjoy it. Although these evidence sessions are relatively new in terms of parliamentary procedure, the idea is, before we scrutinise the Bill, we are trying to get evidence so that we produce the best legislation possible. Can you project your voices, please, and kindly introduce yourselves?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Colleagues, we have until 2.45 pm for this session.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q 84Thank you for joining us today. This morning we heard evidence from animal welfare groups talking about how important it is that wild animals are banned in circuses. As circus operators, can you give us your perspective on the Bill and also on the role of wild animals for entertainment?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q From your point of view and the way you run your businesses, can you explain what efforts you make around animal welfare? We heard this morning about issues of cruelty towards animals and the sense that this ban is overwhelmingly supported by the British public, which I imagine includes those people who attend and watch circuses. I will be grateful for your perspectives on that.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
What animals do you keep?Q
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
The animals that would be covered by the Bill, were it to become an Act.
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
BecauseQ they are not reindeer?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q There is always this fine divide, and because one can does not necessarily mean that one should. Do you think, in this day and age, with the popular access to wildlife television programmes and conservation and so on, that animals should be used for entertainment in that way? What good is that doing, apart from entertaining?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Mr Jolly, I quite specifically did not mention zoos or safari parks, because I think you can construct a perfectly—the question I asked was whether, with access to internet and television—
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Having smelled camels, I think I would prefer not to have to smell them.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Not you, Ms McManus, but camels are not known for their—you do not find them on the Estée Lauder counter, do you?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q So the question is whether you should use them in that way.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q Could you give me your justification for that?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
I believe you are basing some of your evidence on the idea that the animals that you have are domesticated; you mention, Ms MacManus, that camels are domesticated in most areas of the world. However, at least one person has written to us saying that elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years. They could be counted as domesticated animalsQ .
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q I am not suggesting that you do; I am asking whether you believe that elephants should be counted as domesticated animals. If so, why should we not allow elephants in a circus? We had a submission from the Fédération Mondiale du Cirque, suggesting that all circuses should have animals, including lions, and a submission from a circus in Germany that also has lions, making the case that having lions in circuses is perfectly acceptable. Were it possible for you to have elephants and lions, would you? Also, do you agree that if we do not ban wild animals in circuses there is every possibility that somebody else will come in with a circus that has elephants or lions, or both?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
On the definition, let us start with birds. We are told that budgerigars and canaries are not wild animals; they are domesticated in Great Britain. However, apparently macaws are considered wild. You have described some other issues. How clear do you think the definition is of what is or is not domesticatedQ ?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Carol, you mentioned exotic animals. An exotic pet is a wild animal that is being kept as a pet, is it not? So is an exotic animal not a wild animal?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q What is the difference?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q May I turn to Carol for a minute? You keep talking about exotic animals.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q An exotic animal is just a wild animal. An exotic pet is a wild animal that is kept as a pet.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q I am just trying to work out the definition that you are trying to give us. What do you mean by an exotic animal?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q We were told earlier that some of the wild animals are disrupted and upset by a lot of travel. They are essentially wild, and although you may persuade them to perform by a form of training, moving them from place to place disrupts and upsets them. It is just wrong, we are told.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Yes, but what about my point that an itinerant lifestyle for wild animals, which are the ones covered by the Bill, is wrong because it upsets them and disrupts them?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
It is unnatural to their way of life.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
So did Pavlov’s dog.
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q So what is the difference between your camel and a horse?
Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)
Q Are there any animals that you would say should not perform?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
SomeQ of the answers to Mr Hoare’s questions were about children being able to see the animals because they are in a circus. Is that different from going to see an animal in a safari park, for example, where the animal is in a habitat in which it is not required to perform? In a way, safari parks try to recreate the natural habitats that animals live in, whereas in a circus the animal is expected to perform for a crowd, which is completely at odds with what it would do in the wild. I want to challenge some of the comments that you made. What would you say in response to that?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q What about when they are packed up and have to travel from place to place?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q But they move around, do they not?
Ellie Reeves (Labour, Lewisham West and Penge)
Q How often do they have to be transported?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Mr JollyQ , you referred to your two racoons and your fox, zebra and camels. If there was a ban, what would happen to those animals?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q What proportion are they of the entertainment you provide with the circus? What other acts does it include? I have not been to your circus myself.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Surely you would not want to give all that up if wild animals were not permitted in circuses.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q Did you say that the wild animals would continue to travel with the circus?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
I am sorry; I misheard you.
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q Thank you very much for coming to give evidence. Could you talk us through a bit more about how you look after animals, and what their sleeping conditions and training regime are like? Could you talk us through an average day for the animals?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q That is really helpful, thank you. What sort of performance is it? What do they typically do?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q How long would it take to train an animal to do that?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q That is a question I was going to ask. During those training stages, what happens if an animal does not comply or does not respond?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q You said that you have substantial regulation to monitor all that. Have you had any issues where you have had to bring vets in, or any crises in the last year? What sort of situations have you had?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q So you have not had to call a vet for any of your wild animals?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
We have under 20 minutes left. Four colleagues have indicated that they want to speak before the Minister does. If anyone else wants to say something, could they catch my eye?
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
May I just say, Mr Jolly and MsQ MacManus, that you are coming across as people who care very much for your animals?
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
I can hear that.
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q I can understand that this is very difficult and emotional for you. We can appreciate that. It is a whole way of life for you. What has struck me from what you have said is that in addition to the wild animals—you call them exotic animals—you have other animals. You might be thinking, “If this does come through, we’ll look to diversify. We may have other animals,” because clearly you love animals and you think children should have these opportunities. Could you talk to us about how you might diversify—maybe you could have some snakes?
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q Are there any other sorts of animals that you—
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q So you would carry on doing what you were doing but you would have other animals that were not considered to be exotic or wild animals?
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q Talk me through that. You feel that you would be able to keep the animals you have, which are wild animals—although you call them exotic animals—but do something else with them.
Sarah Newton (Conservative, Truro and Falmouth)
Q Do you feel the definitions in the Bill would enable you to do that?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Clearly, you are very fond of your animals and have had them for a very long time. Mr Jolly, you said that you would not continue, but you are Peter Jolly senior, so obviously your children and grandchildren are involvedQ .
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Would they continue with the circus or would they close it down?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q You said you would take them to county shows if the ban came into being. What sort of things would you be doing at county shows?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q So if we decide to go down the route of banning wild animals in circuses, we also need to look at the definition of a circus. You said you have llamas and goats. What other animals do you have? Do you have dogs?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Do you have doves?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q What about you, Ms MacManus?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q If the ban came into place and you could not use the wild animals, you would continue with the other animals.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q You both said that you either would not get rid of them or would not know what to do with them, and that they could not stay at home. If you were doing county shows, though, that would not be every week.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
It would be occasional use, presumably.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Yes, because of Santa Claus.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q I don’t know about that, but I have seen reindeer in situations at Christmas. I do not know where they have come from or whether they are resident there, but I think it is the fact that they are moving every single week that is seen as the problem.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q You were talking about being in safari parks, where cars were going past them, but in the confined space of a circus ring there are hundreds of people around them, in very close proximity, tapping, cheering, shouting,
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q I think you have given us food for thought. To pick up on what Ms Newton said, it is clear that you care very much about the welfare of your animals, and you are operating under a strong and robust regulatory regime at the moment. I am slightly confused about the point about car noise in a safari park.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
You did speak about noise as well. Unless your audience is made up of children who subscribe to the Trappist way of life, they will make some noise. All I have to do is take my jacket off the hook and my dogs know that we are going for a walk —animals will always respond to those sorts of things.
Ms MacManus, your submission to us is dismissive of ethics, if I can put it that way. I can understand why you make that argument, but I want to ask whether you accept two things. First, do you accept that one rotten apple will spoil the barrel? In your sector, poor behaviour has shone a spotlight on the whole issue, which means that the good, the bad and the ugly get hit in exactly the same way.
Secondly, I do not say this to draw a direct comparison, but I am pretty certain that the family who were fourth generation bull or bear-baiters would have said, “But we’ve always done this; it is our way of life”, because that is what they would have known. Things change when perception and attitudes change. This almost goes back to my first question: do you accept that, just because one can, that does not necessarily mean that one should, and that in the general national consciousness the time of having wild/exotic animals in a circus for entertainment or educational purposes has reached its sell-by date, has passed and is a bit old hat, and that people want to move on because our ranking of animals has changed and is evolving?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
That’s a fair market counter-argument that you put.
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q Two things. First, your basic argument, as I understand it, is that any wild animal—or exotic animal, as you call it—should be able to perform in these circuses.
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q May I ask you a couple of questions about that, then, and take, for example, a tiger? Tigers are solitary animals. Would you agree with that?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q They roam across wide areas when they are in the natural world. Do you agree with that?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q They very often have habitats of 60 sq km. Would you agree with that?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q So would you agree that to put them in a circus would be to put them in a wholly artificial environment?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q Okay. The next thing I want to ask is this. You have horses on the one hand and camels on the other—you have camels, correct?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q Do you detect any difference in the way that those two animals experience being in a circus? Before you answer, the evidence we heard this morning was, “Don’t worry, Mr Chalk. Horses are different because they’ve been domesticated over centuries.” My question is whether the experience of a camel is in fact any different from that of a horse.
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
That is all I wanted to ask.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
For my own understanding, and hopefully that of the Committee, I will try not to repeat things, but ask about a few things that seem to be at the heart of the argument and of the debate. You are saying that these animals are not, in any meaningful sense, wild, because they have been domesticated all their livesQ . Have they been tamed to the same extent as domesticated animals would be in this country?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q So they are not wild animals according to a definition of the word that you would accept. They are just non-traditional kept animals.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q You are saying that the evidence shows—correct me if I am wrong; if you could point to the evidence, that would be great—that their levels of stress are no different from other animals. One of the central arguments we heard this morning was that being in a circus was not true to their nature.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Because they have not known an alternative existence that, according to people this morning, would have been more true to their nature.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q The second central point seems to be the generalised discussion about whether having animals in circuses is an idea whose time has passed. You are obviously disputing that. Will you continue to keep animals in your circus, but just non-wild, legal ones that are more domesticated—horses and dogs?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q So you will continue with animals, but obviously not the “wild” ones, although you are challenging the definition of what is wild?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Okay. One of the problems, as one of my colleagues mentioned earlier, is that there has been some bad publicity about this, which has obviously damaged the cause of having “wild” animals in circuses. Do you accept that there is a considerable difference, as Mr Chalk was saying, between having hunters such as lions and tigers in circuses, who do roam wildly and are in pain in an enclosed space, and more passive animals such as camels?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Fair enough, sir, but in your lifetime you will have come across circuses with wild hunters and not just—sorry, I do not know the correct term for something that is not a hunter.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Yes. Apart from the fox, you do not have predators in your circus nowadays.
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q Do you accept that there would have been a difference—morally or practically—between having predators such as a lion or a tiger and having non-predators in a circus?
Bob Seely (Conservative, Isle of Wight)
Q I am guessing here because I am no expert on this, but it seems to be a more complex argument to make that you can hold a lion or a tiger in a captive environment and give that animal a happy life, in the same way as you can a camel. I can actually readily accept the argument for the camel, given that camels hang out with people and have done for thousands of years.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I will have to interrupt. We only have three minutes left.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q I just have a couple of questions. Thanks for coming along today—we appreciate it. In terms of the animals we are talking about now and the ones you have, I understand that you want them to carry on travelling. As you know, the legislation we are considering at the moment does not allow for that, so I just wanted to ask again about retirement plans for the animals. Mr Jolly, you seemed to indicate that this might be enough for you to decide that you do not want to carry on in the circus arena anymore, and you, Ms MacManus, you were not too clear what was going on.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Understood.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q When you talk about leaving them behind, do you have people at your winter base all the time?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Forgive me, I do not know how your operating model works. You do have people at your winter quarters throughout the year?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q So that would mean that, although you do not have definitive plans, you have options for your two reindeer, your zebra and your two camels.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Thank you very much.
I have one other quick question. There is a lot of public interest in this Bill, and some people want to see this happen as soon possible. If the legislation was put in place before 20 January 2020—I think that is the deadline; is that right?—would you be able to cope with that in terms of your plans?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Mr Jolly, any thoughts on that?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q It will not be next week, but what if it was brought forward earlier?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Order. I am sorry, but the time has passed so quickly. I want to thank our two witnesses for the time you spent with us. We thank you for your full and frank responses to the questions. You have given very valuable evidence to the Committee. Thank you very much indeed.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
We will now hear oral evidence from the European Circus Association and the Circus Guild of Great Britain. I do not think I have to repeat what I said to the previous witnesses, because you were already sitting in the audience. Would you kindly introduce yourselves and perhaps make a brief opening statement?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q You heard the questions we asked the last panel in relation to animal husbandry and the welfare of wild animals in circuses in the UK. Martin, from an international perspective, when bans have been introduced elsewhere—you said that you travel with your animals—can you expand on what difference that has made to the business? How has operating in countries where there are bans affected the business of travelling circuses?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Thank you for that answer. If I may, Mrs Brown, I found your written evidence very interesting—how you put across your case. Your submission said that the Bill is
“discriminatory; disproportionate; driven by animal welfare groups”.
Do you think that there is an animal welfare problem with wild animals in circuses at the moment? This morning, the animal welfare groups provided examples of animals they regarded as poorly treated and out of their natural environment, causing them a great deal of stress. I am wondering how the evidence that we heard this morning fits with your view that the Bill is unnecessary.