Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 14 February 2019.
Examination of Witnesses
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
We will now resume our public evidence gathering on the Bill. We have representatives present from Detention Action, the Children’s Society, the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, Deloitte and Amnesty International.
I do not know whether any of our witnesses have appeared before parliamentarians previously, but the idea is that this should not be intimidating. It is simply a procedure whereby parliamentarians gather evidence so that when we move on to line-by-line scrutiny later in Committee, we are better informed.
Will everyone introduce themselves, starting with Ms Sankey?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
We have until 12.30 pm for this session.
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Good morning to you all. Let me start with a question for everyone to answer. Clause 1 of the Bill will repeal free movement and subject European Union citizens to the UK’s immigration system. Do you think that the system is robust enough to deal with that influx? What are your biggest concernsQ 221 ?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
A quarter of our time has already gone, but I wanted to give our witnesses the opportunity to respond to the overall question about how they feel about the Bill. A number of colleagues wish to ask questions. It is not necessary for everyone to give a view on every question. I hope that is understood.
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Adrian, you talked about the Henry VIII powers in clauses 4 and 5. To what extent do those go beyond the powers the Secretary of State currently has? Is there anything that Ministers would need those powers to do that they cannot do already and is not so big that it would require primary legislation?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
My colleague has just one more question, and then I am going to Maria Caulfield.
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q To follow on from that, could the Government use the powers in the Bill to amend immigration legislation affecting non-EU citizens?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Does anybody disagree with that position—that the Government could use the powers in that way?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
I have a question to Bella SankeyQ on your concern about removing indefinite detention. I do not necessarily disagree with that, but I am interested in why you are supporting a 28-day limit. What is the rationale behind 28 days?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
Q Is your proposal across the board for all detainees, or would it exclude groups such as foreign national offenders?
Gavin Newlands (Scottish National Party, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Further to the questions that were posed on detention, we have just got a comprehensive response on why it is limited to 28 days detention. Could you highlight the main differences between the amendment to the Bill that Detention Action has proposed and the so-called Harman amendment that has received some prominent backing? I am conscious of Sir David’s direction, but could the rest of the panel give a yes/no response to whether you agree with limiting detention to 28 daysQ ?
Gavin Newlands (Scottish National Party, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Q I think the amendment is known publicly. If you are aware of that amendment, it would be useful if you could highlight the differences between the amendments.
Gavin Newlands (Scottish National Party, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Does the rest of panel agree with the 28-day detention limit?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Once we have ended free movement, would you agree that it would not be correct to give preferential treatment to EU migrants over somebody coming from anywhere else in the worldQ ?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
With respect, I do not think you are answering my question. Does anyone else have a view on the question that I asked?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Q Would you agree that the simplicity of having the same system for new migrants as people coming from other parts of the world is advantageous?
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Labour, Torfaen)
My question is principally directed to the Children’s Society. Obviously, at the moment, the Government have set about waiving the charge for the EU settlement scheme, but there is still a power in clause 4(5) of the Bill that allows the modification of provisions on the imposition of fees and charges. I am interested in how that relates to vulnerable children, especially looked-after children. First, what are the barriers to those children being able to register? Secondly, what can the Home Office do to assist with those children to ensure that they are registered under the scheme as they are entitled to be?Q
Kemi Badenoch (Conservative, Saffron Walden)
I would like to bring us back to the issue of 28 days and the time-limited detention. I do not think anyone in this room wants to see unnecessarily long detention. You have all talked about how the system is not robust enough. If a case cannot be determined within 28 days, what rights do you think the applicant should be givenQ ?
Kemi Badenoch (Conservative, Saffron Walden)
Q How much of the system not being robust enough do you think is due to the fact that there is such a high volume of immigration cases that need to be dealt with?
Kemi Badenoch (Conservative, Saffron Walden)
Q I am sorry to stop you, but I sense there is a lot passion.
Kemi Badenoch (Conservative, Saffron Walden)
Q But it sounds like you are hectoring me. I would actually like you to take some of the emotion out of your answers and just stick to the facts, please.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Colleagues, we only have 20 minutes left of this session. I have five more colleagues wishing to ask questions and I wanted to give the Minister time to ask something at the end, so we really have to speed this up.
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q I want to return to a different point, which Mr Valdez-Symonds mentioned, reflecting our discussion with Professor Ryan about the way in which this Bill switches off rights without setting out clearly an alternative for the people whom it affects. I see you are nodding, Mr Berry.
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
GoingQ back to something Ms McCluskey said earlier about the opportunity to improve the simplicity of a future system if EU and non-EU citizens are treated in a similar way, we have heard that testimony from other witnesses. What justification, if any, would you or any panel member say there would be for giving EU nationals preferential treatment going forward, and what risks might that pose to the integrity or complexity of a future immigration system?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Sorry to interrupt, but my specific question—Mr Berry might have a specific legal response to this—was on the potential complexity or legal issues that might arise from having a separate system for EU nationals, in which their family members can join them, that is not the same for non-EU members. I must declare an interest: I am married to a non-EEA citizen, so this is quite personal to me. Do you foresee any particular legal issues with that?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Sorry to cut you off, but I want to get everyone in.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
My question has been answered, but I want to follow up on the point about simplicity. The White Paper envisages trade arrangements being tied up with different possible visa regimes for different countries, not only an arrangement with the EU. Ultimately, we have heard lots of evidence that the system for non-EEA nationals is horrendously complicated. The idea that you make things simpler by applying the horrendously complicated system to everyone seems a bit superficial, does it not? MsQ McCluskey, you said that this was increasing simplicity, but it is absurd to say that you will simplify a horrendously complicated system by applying it to everybody.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q To give an example, if you have a fish processing business and you currently recruit from the EU, you just recruit. That is it. You do not have to go through any visa regime. Under the new system, you will have to be a tier 2 sponsor. Every single time you get somebody to come in, you will either have to get a certificate of sponsorship or you will need to go through this ludicrous one-year visa. That is not simplicity for that fish-processing businessperson, is it?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q My alternative would be a trade arrangement that allows for the free movement of people to carry on. Mr Berry, on the family point, in 10 years’ time, if I am a UK citizen married to an EU spouse and want them to come to this country, what rules will apply to them that do not apply now?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Ms Pinter, do you have any comments on the family rules that might apply to EU family members in the future?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I am sorry, but we have just eight minutes left with this panel. Kate Green.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
My question has been asked, Sir David.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Right. Nic Dakin.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
EarlierQ , someone said that there was a danger of people being robbed of the safeguards that they need; and later, Bella, I think, said that there was a risk from independent checks not being in the system. The 28 days seemed to be a major way of addressing the issue and putting checks in the system. Is that sufficient, or are other things necessary? We do not wish to complicate things; if that is sufficient, great.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q I want to start by welcoming the comments that Ilona made about wanting to work with Government in relation to the White Paper. I also want to talk a little bit about the EU settled status scheme and how it impacts children, and the focus that we have had on vulnerability. I wondered whether you felt that the £9 million that the Government had made available for charities, NGOs and so on to support the vulnerable was enough and whether the Children’s Society was planning on bidding for any of that.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q I am sorry—I am conscious that we have only a couple of minutes. I think pretty much all the panel talked about simplification of the immigration rules. I think I said on Tuesday that nobody gets any argument from me about the necessity of doing that. Presumably you have all responded to the Law Commission’s consultation, or will do so before it closes. I wonder whether you could give me your top pick of what you would like to see from a simplified system.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Thank you. Can we turn to Mr Berry? We have three minutes.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q You said earlier that you did not think that there was any urgency—I cannot remember at which specific point. Do you not think that 29 March is now somewhat pressing, and perhaps the Government should feel a sense of urgency about, first, ensuring that we address the issue of turning off freedom of movement and, secondly, looking to our future immigration system?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Except, on immigration, the rules have been the usual way to do it since 1971.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Okay. Mr Valdez-Symonds—your point on simplification.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Order. It is such a shame—all our witnesses have so much to share with the Committee, so for those who feel that they did not have ample opportunity, you can still write to the Committee. Thank you very much indeed for your time today.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Welcome to our next set of witnesses. I think you have got a feel for the way in which we proceed. Your session is just half an hour, but, because there are two of you, it might not be so pressurised. Will you introduce yourselves?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q My first question is to both of you. Clause 4 gives the Secretary of State powers to introduce new immigration rules with little scrutiny in Parliament. What are your concerns about how Ministers might use such powers?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q We now know that a 12-month visa was previously trialled and abandoned as unworkable. What evidence and information do you have regarding the operation of a 12-month visa?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Your question is slightly different. You have dealt with a number of Windrush victims; do you think Ministers have addressed the problems in the Home Office that led to the Windrush crisis, and that they will be able to avoid a repeat of that with EU citizens?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Could Government use powers in this Bill to amend immigration legislation affecting non-EU citizens?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Q Obviously, quite a substantial number of British citizens are living in EU countries. Do you feel those EU countries have taken adequate steps to address the rights of those citizens?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q How confident are you that the Home Office will be able to scale up the existing immigration scheme that applies to non-EEA nationals to meet the needs of individuals and employers after Brexit? What challenges do you think it will have to address?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
What impact do you think that will have on labour mobility?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q What guidance or advice has been issued to your employer clients so far about the checks they should be making on the ability of EEA nationals to work in the UK after exit?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Are your clients expecting that they are going to have to start asking questions about people’s status on 30 March?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q I have asked this question to different panels—forgive me for that—but you will be answering for the first time. Do you believe there is any justification for having a two-tier system in the future, where EU citizens and their families may get preferential treatment to those from the rest of the world?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Would you advocate for immigrants from outside the EU to have the same level of access to their families, for example?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Sorry, when you say English rules, do you mean UK? I just wanted to be clear, before my SNP colleagues—
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Okay, thank you.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Presumably, the White Paper does not propose applying the same rules to everybody, does it?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Our trade relationships would be one reason why you might not apply the same rules to everybody, and that is pretty much why we have free movement now.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q When you said we should be pushing for fairness for everybody, is that not closer to the mark? It does not mean that everybody comes under the same rules.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q I absolutely agree with you on that point. It should not just be about suddenly allowing the wealthy from country A, B or C to come in. Can you tell me about the tier 2 system? What are your thoughts on how simple that is?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Mr Hoare, will you comment on how simple or otherwise the tier 2 system is now and? Secondly, do you have any thoughts on how we can make the settled status scheme better for EU nationals who are currently here, whether that is making it a declaratory system, or appeal rights, or whatever else?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Ms Brown, any thoughts on improvements to the settled status scheme? We have heard people suggest making it declaratory, or appeal rights.
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Will you tell us the cost to applicants of applications and the fees for appeals, and the effect of removing legal aid?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Will you also shed some light on the number.
of people who have been detained and later given some sort of leave to remain?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q You both mentioned the anxiety that employers might have regarding somebody’s right to work. Do you regard the digital right-to-work checks as a step forward?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Do you not see the digital right-to-work check as a useful safety net to verify whether documents are genuine?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q You said that the EU settled status scheme required people to document every day of their existence in the UK.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Which, of course, it doesn’t. It requires people to evidence their identity and residence. We have seen from the testing phases that more than 80% of people have been able to do that with no additional documents, just by using their HMRC or DWP records. Of course, it asks them to declare any criminal convictions. Do you think it is scaremongering a little to say “if” the EU settled status system required people to evidence every day of their existence, when it simply does not.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Pre, not less than.Q
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
You do know that in the first two testing phases, those employers were NHS trusts and universities, don’t you? We like to think that they would have credited the right amount of tax.Q
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
It absolutely will.Q
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
You are conscious of the very high levels of people in the testing phases of the system who have reached either pre-settled or settled status—are you happy with that?Q
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Which they can upgrade once they have got to five years, and at no extra cost even when there was a charge, but now there is no charge anyway.Q
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q How would you make it simpler?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q You are conscious that it is still in a testing mode?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I thank our two witnesses for the time you have spent with us. We are grateful.
Examination of Witness
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Welcome, Mr Porter. I do not know if you have appeared before a Committee before, but please enjoy the session as the Committee members gather evidence. You will get questions from non-Scottish Members as well. Will you introduce yourself formally for the record?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
It sounds as though you are the right witness for this session, with that expertise. This session lasts until 2.30 pm.
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
I am someone non-Scottish, to start with. Do you have concerns about Scotland’s agricultural and associated sectors’ ability to recruit the labour they will need post BrexitQ 280?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q In your view, can those vacancies not be filled by workers from the UK?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q You said that 70% were returnees. Do you have any other concerns about the 12-month visa, or the £30,000 income threshold that we have been talking about?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
You mentioned the very low unemployment rates in Angus. They are broadly similar, and perhaps even lower, in Aberdeenshire, just north of you—where I am from, obviously. Can anything be done to make agriculture or horticulture more attractive to British workers from elsewhere in the UKQ ?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q You also mentioned that there is a risk that if it were made more difficult for workers from the EU to get to the UK, they could go to Germany or other places where there is similar work.
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q The NFU Scotland president, Andrew McCornick, said—I cannot remember which Committee session it was in—that NFU Scotland is already looking for ways to attract labour from outside the EU. Is that correct?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q That was a supplementary question to my other question, but my main question is this. We heard on Tuesday repeated accusations from witnesses that some short-term contracts—agriculture was mentioned specifically—run the risk of being exploitative. Can you give us some indication of the work that the National Farmers Union and your members do to make sure that is not the case?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
I had heard that it was even higher than that; I think it is 90%.
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Labour, Torfaen)
You said that you felt that the £30,000 earnings threshold was not a realistic number. You have spoken about the temporary agricultural workers scheme, but could you give me a sense of what the impact of a £30,000 threshold would be more generally across the agricultural and associated sectors? Is it really fair to describe people who earn less than that as low skilledQ ?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Yes, I think that would be very useful.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you for that explanation.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Can I ask what information your members have had and what knowledge they have about any checks that they will be expected to make on EU nationals’ right to work after BrexitQ ?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Your understanding is that they will be able to work in the first three months without any documentation, but then they will need to apply.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q How will your members know whether somebody is in their first three months or whether they have already been here for three months working for another employer?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Does that worry your members, or would it worry them if they thought about it?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Your members do not make background checks as things stand, because people are here under free movement rules.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q But you do not need to check their right to work after that.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Most of my questions have been answered, but I have a couple of short ones. The Bill seeks to end free movement. Is it the NFUS position that continuing free movement would be a better course of action?Q
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Because it has worked well for your members?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Do you know how many of your members have experience of being tier 2 sponsors?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Finally, some of the witnesses in Tuesday’s session were concerned about the prospects of exploitation in a minority of cases because, if workers were tied to a particular employer or were towards the end of a visa that lasted for only a year or less, there was limited prospect of anyone else taking them on. One solution might be to have a multi-year visa so people at least have the opportunity to come back for a future season somewhere different.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Going back to tier 2 visas, at the moment the fee to recruit a tier 2 worker is more than £1,000. If that type of system went forward, would that present any difficulties, or does that seem a reasonable level?Q
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
That is the cost for tier 2 at the moment.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Q You have illustrated very well the tightness of the industry. We had Alan Manning from the Migratory Advisory Committee here yesterday, who seemed to say that people just need to pay more.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q You have been very clear about the investment and innovation that have gone into the sector, with table-top growing, etc. How far off do you think mechanised picking of soft fruit is?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q If it takes 10 seconds for a robot to pick one strawberry, how many strawberries can a skilled picker pick in 10 seconds? A lot.
We heard from the MAC on Tuesday that they felt that you could make a distinction for agriculture as opposed to other sectors. Do you want to expand, in the three minutes allowed, on why agriculture is special and why we should take steps to make sure it stays that way?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
If there are no other questions, I thank our witness very much for the time you have spent with us. If you leave and suddenly think of something else you wish you had got off your chest, we will be pleased to hear from you in writing.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Welcome. This session can last until 3 o’clock. Will you formally introduce yourself for the record before the questioning begins?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Professor, you have highlighted certain discrepancies between the treatment of EU citizens who are already in the UK in the event that we reach a deal, and their treatment in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Will you run through those discrepancies?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Clause 4(2) gives the Secretary of State powers to modify
“any provision made by or under primary legislation passed before, or in the same Session as, this Act”
and “retained direct EU legislation”. Could the Government use that power to roll back their commitment to EU citizens?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Could the Government use powers in the Bill to amend immigration legislation affecting non-EU nationals?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q As it is currently drafted, the Bill contains no protections for EU citizens already resident in the UK. Would there be stronger protection for EU citizens if the Government’s commitment were laid out in primary legislation?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Finally, what concerns do you have about the ability of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU to accumulate social security rights if we leave the EU without a deal? Clause 5 of the Bill grants Henry VIII powers to the Secretary of State to make broad changes to social security co-ordination. Do you think those rights can be gained without primary legislation?
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Labour, Torfaen)
Q Professor Peers, you have written a lot about free movement, including that of UK citizens in the EU27. A former constituent of mine contacted me recently about the situation in Austria; the Austrian Government have just published their scheme for expats, and it is €210 per person for a long-term residence permit, which seemed to me quite an extraordinary amount of money. Can you set out your concerns for UK citizens in the EU27 during this period?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I would like to follow up on Afzal Khan’s questions about social security. I think you said that one way in which the Government might want to use the powers in clause 5 would be to mirror any changes that the EU might make, to ensure that there would be a continuing set of reciprocal arrangements. However, the explanatory notes to the Bill say:
“This clause allows the Government (and/or, where appropriate, a devolved authority) to make regulations to implement any new policies regarding co-ordination of social security.”
Do you think that might be too broad a power for the Government to have?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q The explanatory notes also suggest that regulations could be made under the clause to make different provision for different categories of persons. Do you have any views on that power, and how Ministers might exercise it, and any constraints Parliament might think of to be placed on that?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q For those who have contributed to the British social security system and then have expectations as pensioners?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Finally, what do you think will be the impact on labour market mobility of the possibility of different social security co-ordination arrangements in the future?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Those who are more highly paid, and therefore expect a higher pension, might think about it more as well.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Can I ask about clause 2, which relates to Irish citizens? I think everyone welcomes the inclusion of the clause. However, we heard evidence earlier this week that there are perhaps other issues for Irish nationals that we should cover, and that the clause does not go far enough to protect their position. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Turning to the settled status scheme, you spoke earlier about trying to put at least the central elements of the settled status scheme and the rights for the 3 million, to use that expression, in the Bill. People have also given evidence that the system should be declaratory in nature, rather than people having to apply for something before they have any rights. Do you agree with that?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Are you concerned, as things stand, about this cut-off point? Are you concerned that however well the Home Office does in registering as many folk as possible, tens of thousands—if not hundreds of thousands— will miss that deadline? Can you see a case for scrapping the deadline altogether, or for having some other compromise to prevent, for want of a better word, a Windrush-style situation from arising again?
Eleanor Smith (Labour, Wolverhampton South West)
My question is about the fact that the Home Office is saying it will grant settled status to someone for two years; I was going to ask whether you thought that was feasible, but I think you have answered that. Do you think the two years the Home Office is granting everybody is feasible? Do you think this can be done in that short space of timeQ ?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q From the evidence we have heard from you in the course of the past 25 minutes or so, it is clear that the decision to end free movement following the outcome of the 2016 referendum has painted a complicated picture. Was that always an inevitable outcome, once we knew the result of the referendum?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
If there are no other questions, I thank you very much indeed for the time you have spent with us. If you should remember something that you wish you had raised, please write to us. Thank you.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Welcome to the Committee. Would you please kindly introduce yourself for the record?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q We heard from Professor Bernard Ryan on Tuesday that a gap in the Bill is its lack of provisions for EU citizens who are already here and who will now apply for settled status. Do you agree? What kind of provisions would be needed to secure the rights of EU citizens in the UK?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Just to make sure we catch both these areas, I have two quick questions. We have heard that the implementation Bill may be a chance to guarantee the rights of EU citizens in primary legislation. Do you want to expand on that? What is the case for doing it in this Bill?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q What concerns do you have about the Henry VIII powers in this Bill? Do they potentially allow the Government to amend the rights of EU citizens in the UK by secondary legislation?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
I just want to clarify something. You seemed to suggest that EU citizens who are living here now do not have to apply for any settled status, but that is not the case, is itQ ?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
But even EU citizens now, as we are still members of the EU, still have to apply for settled status. There is a process in place and they have to have lived here for six months in any 12-month period for five years in a row. That is the case now, is it notQ ?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
But that is the case nowQ ?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
So there is a process that EU citizens have to follow in this country, if they want to apply for settled statusQ .
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
Q Okay, but there is a process in place now. Although we have free movement, which this Bill aims to end, there is already a process in place that people from the EU have to follow. It is a cumbersome and bureaucratic process, but it is not true that this is something new and different that has not happened to other members of the EU.
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
Q For British citizens in other EU members states, do they have to apply for ID cards now as current members of the EU?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
Q For those British citizens, as EU citizens now, what are the consequences if they do not apply for an ID card in that particular country?
Maria Caulfield (Conservative, Lewes)
Could you give me an example?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q May I ask you about the provisions in the Bill relating to social security? What are your views about the powers in clause 5?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q The statutory instruments that you are talking about are statutory instruments that the Government have already laid under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. That is correct, is it not?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q That would give the Government the opportunity to demand information or make assumptions about your status if you could not supply that information.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Given that the Government are already laying statutory instruments under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, what further concerns do you have about the additional provisions in this Bill?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q So it does not make the situation better and it may be making it even more punitive.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Do you have any concerns about the power that this Bill would confer on Ministers to make different provisions in relation to social security for different categories of EEA or other nationals?
Kemi Badenoch (Conservative, Saffron Walden)
Professor, as part of the3million, you have had frequent meetings with Government in terms of designing the Q settled status scheme. Can you tell us how effective you think the Government and the Home Office in particular were in engaging with stakeholders?
Kemi Badenoch (Conservative, Saffron Walden)
Q I hear what you are saying. In answer to previous questions, you talked about the dissatisfaction with the way the rights have transitioned. However, my understanding is that you were consulted extensively on the design of the settled status scheme.
Kemi Badenoch (Conservative, Saffron Walden)
Q Thank you for that. You talked about the flaws of the system. There were bits that you had an input in designing or were extensively consulted on, so something in there must be good. Do you think there is anything in there that could be useful as the basis of a future immigration system? What do you like about the settled status scheme?
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
That exchange anticipated my next question, which was going to be about the physical documents. In that discussion, you made the point that you were consulted. You have made a very powerful case on the importance of physical documentation. Presumably, you made that case to the Home Office in the consultationQ ?
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q Did you hear any convincing argument from the Home Office as to why that should not be provided?
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q May I move to a different area—the right of appeal? You expressed concern about it earlier, and I assume that you also expressed your views about it fairly robustly in consultation with the Home Office. I guess that the Home Office would have said in reply that there was the option to pursue administrative review and judicial review. What was your reaction to that?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Obviously you are here to particularly represent those EU citizens who are currently living in the UK, but may I ask you the same question that I asked some of our panellists this morning about British citizens living in the EU? Do you think that all the EU countries have been doing everything possible and taking adequate steps to guarantee the rights of British citizens living in the EUQ ?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Q Do you think that the UK and the EU have approached these issues from different perspectives?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q This 3 million is a big number. Even if small numbers get caught up in something like what has happened with Windrush, do you think there is a risk that EU citizens will be caught in that way?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q I think that you have said that the best way to protect citizens’ rights is through the withdrawal agreement, and you will certainly get no argument from me on that front. In the event of a deal, given your clearly expressed view that citizens’ rights should be protected in primary legislation, is a withdrawal agreement Bill the best place to do that?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
But ideally, that would be the place.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Do you think that the3million has a role to play in encouraging EU citizens to apply through the settled status scheme?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Good. I am very pleased to hear that the3million wants to continue to play a role, because we have certainly welcomed its input so far. Have you ever applied for an e-visa or an electronic travel authority to go to any other country?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Would it be your view that ETAs, or the electronic system for travel authorisation to go to the United States—you have clearly not applied for one of those—are better than physical documents, or do you think a wet stamp on a passport is the 21st-century way of dealing with things?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Would you acknowledge that physical documents can get lost and might need renewing, which could potentially come at a cost to either the individual or the state?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Although if we had an electronic system, that also might be backed up.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you very much indeed for your time. We are very grateful for the evidence you have given the Committee.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Welcome. Would you like to introduce yourself to the Committee, just for the record?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q What do you think about the powers in clause 4?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Do you think there is sufficient scrutiny of immigration rules now?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Do you think there was sufficient scrutiny of the hostile environment when it was brought in?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Knowing what we know about where we are with the current immigration system, do you think that it needs to be reviewed before we add another 3 million or 4 million EU citizens? Would it help to streamline, improve and simplify it?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Can I ask you about the provisions in the Bill that relate to social security co-ordination? Clause 5, again, gives the Government Henry VIII powers to modify the social security co-ordination arrangements, including modifications to entitlements that people may currently have in primary legislation. You have spoken a bit about how immigration rules have been used to modify primary legislation. What is your view of those Henry VIII powers?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Is there a difference when delegated legislation is used to remove rights currently enjoyed by people who are already here, and when it is a matter of the application of those rights in future?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q I guess it would be possible to constrain the scope of what could be amended in delegated legislation more tightly than the Bill does.
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
You have mentioned the constraints of time, which, obviously, are potentially quite challenging. If we were to leave with a no-deal scenario on 29 March, and the Bill was in place by then, how do you think implementation on the ground would go? Would there be challenges to get things running in that timeframe?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Q Do you think the ambition set out in the Bill—you mentioned ambition versus time—is appropriate, considering the constraints we face?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I have four more people wishing to ask questions and 13 minutes.
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Q I have a more general question on the issue, given your wider brief. When the Home Secretary introduced the Bill to the House, he said that it sought to address people’s concerns about immigration, which were the main factor behind the Brexit vote. Do you think it odd, then, given the division between primary and secondary legislation, that this is essentially an enabling Bill that provides no clarity at all about the future immigration arrangements—what the Home Secretary defined as the critical issue behind the Brexit vote?
Paul Blomfield (Labour, Sheffield Central)
Critical issues such as the tier 2 salary cap have deliberately gone out to consultation, however, because there is no agreement within the Cabinet about what that should look like.
Eleanor Smith (Labour, Wolverhampton South West)
Q You mentioned the Americans and the figure of 45%, and we keep saying that it is realistic that we are trying to get 95%. Is that realistic? How is it feasible for the Home Office to do that in two years?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Q What is your view about the proposals outlined in the European temporary leave to remain scheme for EU citizens who arrive in the UK after 29 March, in the event of no deal?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q You spoke a couple of times about the possibility that the enforcement system would have to adapt or changes would have to be made to the back end of the system, as I think you referred to it, to do with the large group of people that will inevitably miss the deadline. Can you say any more about how you can see this system adapting? How far can it really change from what it is? What sort of things do you have in mind?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q I can see that that sort of thing can make a difference around the edges, but it is not going to get to the nub of the issues. Fundamentally, the problem is that you will still have hundreds of thousands of people who are simply without rights. Some of the bolder suggestions have been not to have a time limit at all, so that people can continue to apply, or to make the system a declaratory system
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Possibly. People who qualify for the settled status scheme will still have every incentive to do so anyway. That could be one of the incentives: they will not able to get employed until they have the documentation. They still have every incentive to do it, but that would just mean that they could not be removed and subject to everything else.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you very much for your time this afternoon, Mr Owen. The Committee is very grateful for the evidence you have provided us with. Our two final witnesses have been sitting patiently throughout the whole of our proceedings, so I think they will be familiar with what will happen.
Examination of Witnesses
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
This session finishes at 4.30 pm. Will you both kindly introduce yourself for the record?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Thank you for attending. Clause 5 of this Bill—
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Yes, as long as you do not take too long, because colleagues will have lots of questions.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you very much for making those points. Now we will have the questions.
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q Clause 5 of this Bill grants the Secretary of State:
“Power to modify retained direct EU legislation relating to social security coordination”.
What concerns do you have about these powers?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q What concerns do you have about the changes the Government have already introduced on social security through secondary legislation?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q What has been the effect on your rights, as British citizens living in the EU, of the uncertainty over the rights of EU citizens in the UK?
Afzal Khan (Labour, Manchester, Gorton)
Q The Government have said that they need the powers in clause 5 to introduce as yet unspecified post-exit policy changes in social security. Do you think it is right that we grant powers to the Government without knowing what they will do with them?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Q You mentioned the variable way in which different countries in the EU are treating the rights of British citizens living in the EU. I ask you a similar question to that which I asked one of our other witnesses earlier. Do you think that different countries, the EU, and the British Government have approached this from a different perspective?
Jack Brereton (Conservative, Stoke-on-Trent South)
Q Do you think there has been a willingness to trade off some of those rights?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Based on what you have said so far, what we should be doing is, first, encouraging the Government to seek a ring-fenced agreement on citizens’ rights and, secondly, setting out in this Committee strong rights for EU nationals in the UK in the Bill, whether there is a no-deal Brexit or a managed withdrawal, and, because of reciprocity, you will then see stronger rights for UK nationals across Europe.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
So that is a plan of action.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
What happens in different scenarios if UK nationals currently in Europe want to come back to the UK with family members? How might whether we are in a deal or a no-deal situation affect that?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Does that mean the full gamut of the £18,700 threshold, and so on?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q That is definitely something that we need to address. Finally, how do we put the rights of EU citizens in the UK in the Bill? Do we look to the withdrawal agreement, or to Appendix EU of the immigration rules? Are there things that you would want improved, even if we were just transposing them into the legislation?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q The withdrawal agreement does not stop us going further. What is your unhappiness with it?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q Thank you very much for your evidence, and for taking the time to come to see us and to set out your concerns so clearly. Do you think that this Bill is the right place to put citizens’ rights in primary legislation, or do you think that would better be done in the withdrawal Bill at the appropriate time?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
Q From the conversations that you have had to date with officials, MEPs and so on, you believe it to be an absolute imperative that it is in primary legislation and not something that is left to the secondary rules that have to date established the 3 million EU citizens’ rights here.
Alok Sharma (Conservative, Reading West)
Q Thank you for your submission. I know that you have also talked to my officials on some of the amending SIs. I have one question on pensioners’ uprating, which you brought up. What impact do you think it would have on UK nationals? Have you talked to people extensively about potentially losing their uprating?
Alok Sharma (Conservative, Reading West)
Q Are you saying that it would actually change people’s behaviour and as a result they might choose to move back to the UK?
Alok Sharma (Conservative, Reading West)
Q Answer the direct question. Do you think it would change people’s behaviour? Would they decide as a result of that to move back to the UK?
Alok Sharma (Conservative, Reading West)
Q So it would not change behaviour.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Q Very difficult to do what?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Colleagues, if there are no further questions, I thank our two witnesses for the evidence that they gave the Committee. We have now reached the end of our oral evidence sessions. The Committee will next meet on Tuesday 26 February, not next week, under the chairmanship of Mr Graham Stringer at 9.25 am to begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill. I remind Members that the deadline for amendments to be considered for that sitting will be the rise of the House next Thursday on the 21st, so any amendments must be tabled by then.