Fisheries Bill
Public Bill Committee, 6 December 2018.
(Morning)
Examination of Witnesses
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
I welcome our witnesses. We have until 12.15 for this session. Will the witnesses very briefly introduce themselves, please?
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
Thank you very much for coming. You are very welcome. I invite the Minister to ask the first question.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q147 Could each of you explain to us what you think the main flaws and weaknesses in the current common fisheries policy are, but also which of its elements and principles you would like to be retained in a domestic Bill?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Is it your view that if we move away from the multilateral kind of discussion that takes place at December Council, with qualified majority voting being the underlying principle for decision making, and instead we move to something that is more of a bilateral agreement between the UK and the EU, and given that we have set out clear environmental objectives that we have brought across from the EU in clause 1 of the Bill, then to answer Andrew Clayton’s point, it should be easier to deliver those objectives, because it will be a bilateral agreement rather than a qualified majority vote?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Would you expand on that? I know that you have raised this point with me, and I can make a direct comparison between what we have—clause 1(3)—and article 2.2 of the CFP. With the absence of targets that are now past, or they will be past by the time this Bill is commenced, the wording is identical.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q But the use of the term “exploitation rate” was only in the context of describing the 2015 where possible and by 2020 on all quota stocks.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q So it is the date that is the only thing—
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally on that, there is something else in the Bill that is not in EU law: the requirement for a joint fisheries statement. That is a statutory requirement to have a plan agreed by all parts of the UK that sets out how we will deliver those statutory objectives in clause 1. Is that not the right place to define and describe in more detail how to deliver that biomass objective?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
One of my concerns about the Bill is that it does not go far enough in addressing data deficiency. We have data for a number of stocks, but for an awful lot of stocks—some quota and some non-quota—we Q do not have a baseline stock assessment or an understanding of how much fish is in the water that we may be catching off-quota. What could be improved in the Bill to address that data deficiency?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q The Minister asked about MSY by 2020. The omission of the “by 2020” part, although problematic because it looks like the UK will not hit the 2020 date, means that there is no target date in the legislation, which is a de facto reduction in environmental standards compared with the CFP, which is something my party has concerns about. Recognising that we will probably miss the 2020 date, what level do you think would be appropriate for the UK to reach an MSY figure?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Can I ask about stock levels in relation to non-quota species such as cuttlefish? Cuttlefish live for only about two years, so there is a risk that if you overfish in one year, you can significantly affect stock levels with huge potential future impact. We do not have a lot of data on cuttlefish at the moment. For those types of species, is there anything that could be included in the Bill to require or encourage greater data collection?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q One of the areas about redistributing quota, both new and potential if we get any drawdown from our EU friends, is allocating that on more economic, environmental and social grounds. Is that an area where, from your point of view, there could be benefits in terms of environmental protection and investment in coastal communities? Is that an area that you would support?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
What importance do you feel the Government attach in this BillQ to conservation, sustainability and protection of the ecosystem?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q Do you think that the Bill as it stands improves or will adversely affect conservation, sustainability and the eco-environment?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q How confident are you that, without that binding mechanism, this will work?
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Sustainability is clearly important. Several of you have mentioned the remote electronic monitoring equipment, as have other witnesses. Is that technology sufficiently developed to do what we want it to do? Is there any evidence from where it is being used in other countriesQ ?
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Q From the New Zealand example that you cited, do you know how long it is taking New Zealand authorities to make this happen on their fleet?
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Q Over what period?
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Q That is the point I am making here. You are asking for it to be put into the legislation, and clearly in that case at some point vessels would need to be compliant, so I am trying to get a feel for what that really means, bearing in mind that there are some timescales that we are working to.
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Good morning, everybody. MrQ Clayton, could you give us more examples of species where there has been fishing well above the MSY in recent years?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q You have obviously been very clear that you think that this is a less ambitious set of targets, and less binding on Ministers, than the CFP. How would you repair the Bill to make it more ambitious and more binding? Would you simply transpose into the Bill that second part of article 2.2 of the CFP, or would you do something else?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Finally, do you think that recreational fishing could play a part in improving sustainability? That is to say, certain stocks could be preserved for recreational fishing, as has happened in New Zealand and elsewhere.
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
We have less than 15 minutes remaining, so brief questions and brief answers might be helpful.
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
My apologies for arriving late. In my experience, fisheries management is currently incredibly adversarial. We in this place, parliamentarians, and non-governmental organisations very much promote a more collaborative approach, with the fishermen being the solution. Do you think that that will be achievable in practice, and how do we make it achievable? We talk about collaboration the whole time, but in the real world it can be very difficultQ .
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
This is a bit of a repeat, but are you in favour of redistributing quotas more fairly to under-10sQ ?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
Q Do you think that would have a positive economic impact on localities such as Hartlepool, where we hardly have a fleet but where the fleet could grow given a fairer distribution of quotas?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
Q I have one last question on climate change, which is hardly mentioned in the Bill. Are the provisions adequate to abide by international climate change obligations? What are the implications of climate change for fish stocks and marine ecosystems?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
I would like to ask about the legal implications of potentially redistributing quotas. What do you envisage the complexities of that might be? How can we address them as part of the process? What is your take on monopolistic activity in the fishing industryQ ?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Good morning, everybody. We have not discussed the fact that the Bill includes a proposal for a discard prevention scheme. Do you have a view as to whether the measures are transparent enough? What are the risks of doing that? Is it the right approach to avoiding discardsQ ?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q Rebecca, if we go back to quotas and quota allocations, you are talking about wanting to see more transparency, environmental measures and social benefits. You spoke about public consultation developing that. What do you actually want to see on the face of the Bill? That is what we are looking at just now. How do we get those protections in the Bill?
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
We now have to conclude this session. I thank all the witnesses for attending; your evidence has been very helpful.
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
I thank our new set of witnesses for joining us. Could you please introduce yourselves very briefly?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Obviously, some of our most important fisheries agreements are those with Norway and the Faroe Islands and the coastal states agreements on species such as mackerel, all of which are currently handled by the EU, where we do not have a direct seat at the table in the way the other coastal states do. Would you explain some of the consequences of that lack of representation by virtue of the fact that we are an EU member?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q In conclusion on this point of the important fisheries in the North sea, is it your view that British interests get traded away by the EU in order to get advantages for other member states?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q All of you export some of your products. In the event of a World Trade Organisation scenario with most favoured nation tariffs, how high is the tariff on the fresh fish that you sell, and are you more worried about tariffs or the possibility of border inspection posing some disruption to the supply chain? Which concerns you most when it comes to trade?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On scallops, the MFN tariff is 8%. Arguably, that is a bit like VAT—it is a tax on the consumer, ultimately. I know some in the fish processing sector have said, “Yes, we would obviously rather have tariff-free trade, but don’t sell out the catching sector on our behalf.” I wondered whether an 8% tariff, at the end of the day, given the fluctuations in market price anyway, is hugely problematic.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
In previous sessions, you might have heard me asking about a national landing obligation—a requirement to land fish caught under a UK quota in UK ports. Would that have an impact on the processing side of the businesses that you represent? In the interest of complete disclosure, I also declare an interest, because Mr Pillar and Interfish are based in the constituency that I represent. What impact would a landing obligation to land fish in UK ports have on your sector? Would it be beneficial?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
One of our concerns about the Bill is the potential for standards to be different on British fishing boats versus foreign fishing boats fishing in British waters. From your point of view, for those who trade here, is there a concern that there could be a differential in terms of cost base, compliance and regulations, environmental protections and marine safety if there is not a level playing field between British fishing boats and foreign fishing boats in our waters?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q We heard in one of our evidence sessions on Tuesday that some fish are caught in UK waters, exported to China for processing and then brought back. I think an awful lot of people will have found that very disturbing. The issue of food miles has dropped from the political agenda, especially with the focus on trade deals with countries far away. How do consumers know whether they are buying fish that has been caught, landed and processed in the UK, or something that has travelled all the way round the world and back again to get to your plate?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
It’s from Marks and Spencer, like all the best suits.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q The difference is that there is a label so that I can see where it is made. As a consumer, if I rock up to a supermarket and buy some fish, how do I know where it has come from? Can we get clarity for British consumers who might be under the impression that, because we are an island nation, the fish we buy have simply been plucked out of the sea and brought in?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Perhaps we can do less on suits and more on fish.
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
Order.
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Andrew, you commented that access to EU markets and the EU workforce is critical for business and industry. What will the ending of free movement mean for your industry? Have you seen any impact of Brexit already since the referendum? Also, what are your views on future immigration policy? The UK Government are talking about not allowing what they call “low-skilled workers”, and having a £30,000 threshold for qualification.
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
Order. I am advised that free movement is beyond the scope of the Bill.
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q I have a question for Mr Brown about the importance of the shellfish industry. As the Member of Parliament for Argyll and Bute, I understand the importance of shellfish to my west of Scotland constituency the. Do you think that the shellfish industry has been adequately heard in the debate, or do you feel that you have been slightly subsumed into the big fishing producers and big organisations? Are your concerns adequately covered in the Bill?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q You talked about the financial and time cost of any barriers being put up. It is essential that a lot of the live product gets to continental Europe as quickly as it can. Are you confident from what you have seen in the Bill, and from what you have heard from the debate surrounding the Bill, that those time costs in particular will not damage your industry?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Robertson; I am sure my esteemed colleague has now reworded his question.
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
We will come back to Mr Brown, but we have to move over to the other side.
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Earlier, you talked about how the likes of Norway, Iceland and others have been looked on with envy in negotiations, probably not just by us, but by other EU member states. In the future, as an independent coastal state, when we end up in those negotiations with that increased power, what role do you see Ministers and officials from devolved Assemblies playing, and how well is that covered in the BillQ ?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Do you think the role of the devolved Administrations is adequately covered in the Bill?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q There has been a focus on the pricing aspects of the impact of Brexit, but I am also interested in the workforce aspects, particularly in more remote communities, such as the Western Isles, where there is a big shellfish industry. If we look at the skills profile of the fishing industry in the UK, 67% of the workforce is in the process. What long-term impact do you think that will have on the skills profile and the age of the workforce, and will that present any challenges for you?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q Are you satisfied that the grant provisions in clause 28 are robust enough? Would you like to see further definition of what those opportunities might be, if you are looking at labour substitution with capital investment to offset the cost and scarcity of labour?
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
We have only 10 minutes to go and I have four questioners. Brief questions and brief answers would be appreciated.
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
I ask this to everyone, with the exception of Whitby Seafoods, who I think source UK and sell UK catch for the other three panel members. I am sure the movement of fish products—catch—will be dictated by the consumers’ palate rather than by any Bill. I understand that there is a lot caught in UK waters and shipped abroad. There is Q almost a reversal; we like what somebody else catches and somebody else likes what we catch. Is there anything in the Bill that will impair that continued process, which is essential for the industry? Is there anything in the Bill that could improve that process for the future?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q Going forward, do you see wider markets beyond the European Union? Do you see opportunities for the products caught off UK shores elsewhere in the world, other than the EU?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Generally, you have obviously set a lot of store by the prospect of us being at the top table, as it were, when we are a so-called independent coastal state. Are you worried that during transition we are going to be even further away from the top table than we are presently?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q On tariffs, the Minister was implying that an 8% increase in tariffs on shellfish might not necessarily be a problem. You talked about £43 million of increased costs for the industry. Would we see more or fewer jobs in the industry if we had an extra 8% tariffs on our shellfish?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Are you anticipating growth in your industry post Brexit?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q There is a scenario at present in the southern North sea where a significant amount of fish is caught, in particular by Dutch vessels, using particularly unsustainable practices such as electric pulse fishing, and it is processed in the Netherlands and then imported back into the UK. That presents three challenges: allowing UK fishermen to catch more of the fish in our waters; promoting sustainable fishing so electric pulse fishing just cannot take place in the way it has; and promoting our own processing sector. Does the Bill help us achieve those three goals?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q Should we have Bills that do not do anything horribly wrong or Bills that promote the best possible practices?
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
We have less than two minutes, but I call Marcus Jones.
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Q The standards of foreign and UK vessels have been mentioned. Mr Whittle, you mentioned electronic monitoring equipment. I did not quite catch—pardon the pun—what you said, so would you elaborate on that? In that context, Mr Brown, will you say a little about licensing if we have time?
Laurence Robertson (Conservative, Tewkesbury)
Order. I am terribly sorry, but my hands are tied; I have to end the session at 1 o’clock, which it now is. I apologise to Mr Brown that I was not able to bring him back in. Witnesses, thank you very much for joining us today. It has been very useful.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
I beg to move,
That the order of the Committee of 4 December be varied, by leaving out “and 5.00pm” in paragraph (1)(c).
This amendment has been agreed by the Whips.
Examination of witness
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Q 194 I invite the witness to introduce himself and his organisation.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q You will be aware that our White Paper on the Bill set out our intention to start to depart from fixed quota allocation units as the basis of quota allocation, to create the possibility of tendering quota to producer organisations based on their sustainability track record, what they give back to local communities and what they offer new entrants, and to use quota to help with the discard ban and possibly to put more into the under-10 pool. Do you broadly support that direction of travel?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q A lot of this comes down to the difference between a White Paper, which explains the Government’s policy on something and what they intend to achieve with a Bill, and the Bill itself, which is simply the legal powers required to carry out the White Paper. There is a clause in the Bill that gives us the power to have a super-levy on over-quota fish or, indeed, to have a tender regime for different quota. Does that not give all the powers we need? What powers are missing?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Do you accept that a lot of business models have been based on buying vessels with the quota attached and, therefore, there is a legitimate expectation, having paid money to get the vessel with its entitlement to some kind of property right, even though it is not an indefinite one?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Do you not think that might change from species to species? It might not be a straightforward seven-year period if you were to do things fairly.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Yes. A seven-year period might not be fair for everyone because some might have paid more for different types of entitlement.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
The NEF study of small fishers around the UK was interesting in highlighting the views of the under-10 fleets in particular. If there is an opportunity, as the Minister outlined, to reallocate future quota or, subject to amendments being accepted, reallocate existing quota, what do you think the opportunity is for small fishers in particular and coastal communities from any type of reallocation from our EU friends to those communities, or from big boats to small boatsQ ?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Having the Bill list fish as a public good has been mooted by some stakeholders as one way definitively to say that fish is a public good and should be allocated for the benefit of the country. From your research, is that something that would make a difference?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q You have the allocation of quota—who has the ability to fish—but the economic link is an important additional, complementary policy. I am especially concerned about those small communities around our coast for which fishing has historically been a very strong industry, but that strength has reduced over the course of our involvement in the CFP. Would requiring a national obligation to land at least 50% of your catch in any one quarter, but allocated on a species-by-species basis, make a difference? Where would the difference be most felt, in your opinion? Would it be in small communities or larger ones? How would it be distributed?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Griffin, you have talked in quite a lot of detail about the reallocation of quota. From my perspective, representing a community that is a have-not, shall we say, that is music to my ears, but I am wary of the legal implications of that. I agree that fishing is a public right, but as we have heard in our evidence sessions, by ill fortune or bad management, it has acquired certain proprietorial rights. How far, legally, do you think we are able to go? The important thing is that this Fisheries Bill must be determined and made by this House, not by lawyersQ .
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Sticking to the quota theme, you have already touched on the debate between this being enabling legislation and how much detail needs to be in the Bill. Do you think there needs to be more on how the quota allocation will work in future? You also mentioned potential quota reserves for new entrants—small-scale recreational anglers have also been mentioned—so is it your view that there should be more in the BillQ ?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
On the redistribution of quota, obviously, if you are a larger owner of quota versus a smaller owner of quota, or an owner of no quota, you will certainly feel that you are going to be worse off in this situation. How do you cater for the fact that a lot of the smaller vessel owners perhaps previously owned quota that they sold, benefiting greatly financially, and then moved into smaller vessels for which they did not need quota? How would you avoid that kind of gaming happening again in the future?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
That was an interesting answer to the question I was going to ask. I was going to ask you to clarify the position that the only way to redistribute quota fairly, if I heard you right, is to break the hold of the larger fishers and bring fisheries back into public ownership. You suggested something like a seven-year notice on that, but what you were just talking was a potential incremental progression towards that through redistribution of surplus tonnage. Were you right in the first instance that fisheries have to be brought back into public ownership for fairer redistribution, but have you also realised that there can be incremental changes to benefit new starters or the under-10s as we proceed?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
On the same theme, I have come across the theory of using days at sea. What are your thoughts on days at sea in relation to quotas? It is admirable that you suggest giving that time period of 14 years to reduce the larger quotas, to give a better share for the smaller vessels and under-10s. While the capacity for the last vessels is there, how do you see us increasing the capacity of the smaller vessels over that period of time, and attracting new people into the industry to absorb the redistribution of quotasQ ?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
You will have to be relatively quick because we are running short of time.
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Exceptionally quick. Thank you.
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Your report, “A Fair and Sustainable Fisheries Bill” made a number of recommendations. How much of that has been translated into what we have in front of us? Do you think that the Fisheries Bill represents radical change or preservation of the status quo? Is it a missed opportunityQ ?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q The right hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), when he was Fisheries Minister, fought very hard in the 2015 review of the CFP, and the general consensus was that it was a good deal. One of the main things won was article 17, so you worry me by basically saying that no one takes any notice of it. In transposing article 17 to the Bill, what can we do to give it teeth, so that people take notice of it and it is implemented?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
As a Welshman, I am obviously worried about the prospect of robbing Dai to pay Pedro. On the issue of flagged vessels that you mentioned, is there anything in the Bill that would stop the Welsh from addressing that issueQ ?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
We have just over three minutes, if there are any further questions.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The Bill envisages a joint fisheries statement, but also something called a Secretary of State’s statement, which would include a whole plan for the English fleet about how it contributes to coastal communities and supports livelihoods. In what way does that fall short of what you are seeking? It is a clear commitment for a plan that will outline how we allocate fishing opportunities to help those objectives.
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q A few witnesses have commented that they do not think there is enough information or transparency regarding the discards prevention scheme that is in the Bill and how it will actually work in future. Do you have any views on that?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Q We are into the last 45 seconds or so of the session. Is there is anything you wish to say that has not been said so far, Mr Carpenter?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Thank you for your evidence to the Committee.
Examination of Witness
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Welcome, Dr O’Brien. Could you please introduce yourself and your role to the members of the Committee?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Carl and I have worked together on many late nights at December Council.
The Committee is hearing a lot about MSY and the use of it as a guide to fisheries management, but I wondered whether you might be able to explain to everyone, first of all, the types of raw data that CEFAS collects through things such as a survey vessel, Endeavour, the work done on fishing vessels and on landings to gather the raw data, and, secondly, how that data is used—as close to layman’s terms as you can—to create the MSY position for a given stock.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q When we talk about data-limited stocks, what typically is lacking for a stock to be data-limited rather than one with a full dataset on which you can judge MSY?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Could you explain briefly the difference between the biomass MSY and fisheries MSY, and why FSMY is deemed the right measure to use for fisheries management?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Would you explain where, from a scientific point of view, using MSY throws up practical problems—for instance, with mixed fisheries or where there are choke species—and what we might do to overcome some of those problems?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
You gave us a bit of the history. My question is more about where it poses practical problems, on mixed fisheries and choke species.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally, Norway uses MSY, but also uses a number of other measures. It is sometimes argued that following MSY on its own gives you too much volatility and year-to-year change in stock management. Is there anything that we can learn from the Norwegians’ approach? Do they have a point in terms of having a slightly more holistic approach to sustainable fishing?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q One of the concerns that many stakeholders have raised with us is about data deficiency, especially on non-quota species. How would you recommend that the UK Government and the devolved Administrations address that data deficiency, especially among species where there might be concerns but not a huge amount of evidence gathered to date?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q As another west country MP, I agree that we need more data to support the mixed fisheries that we have. What is the progress that needs to be made to get to fully documented fisheries? One of the difficulties that some of our stakeholders have been flagging up is that some of our fisheries cannot be classed as sustainable simply because there is not enough data to prove that they are or not. What do we need to do to get to fully documented fisheries?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q That is good. The UK has some of the best fishery science in the entire world, if not the best.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q That brings me to an allied question that goes along with access to waters. If we are requiring British fishing boats to have this high level of reporting—entirely appropriately—do we have the same level of data coming from foreign boats accessing UK waters?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q Moving slightly off the Bill—I am sure the Chair will forgive me as it is connected to the environment—we see birds gathering to migrate across the globe, but we do not see the same movement of fish under the water. What sort of distance do the fish travel as they migrate from place to place? Environmentally, we have believe that the temperature of the water is going to increase, so could that increase in temperature alter where the shoals of fish go? Is that going to affect the fishery?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q I have a question about the discard prevention scheme: we have heard over the last couple of days from representatives from the fishing fleet itself, who think the system will not work, and from environmental groups, which think there is not enough information on how it will operate. Could you tell us how the scheme will be implemented? Given that both the environmental lobby and the fishing fleet have concerns, do you think we should put something in the Bill to make it absolutely clear how it will work?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q One final question, if I may, which follows on from what Mr Grant said. I was in Greenland recently. There are species that have been caught off the coast of Greenland that have never been recorded as having been there before. I presume that as species move north, species from the south move into UK waters. How fleet of foot is DEFRA in terms of whether our fishing fleet should begin to harvest stocks of fish that are not usually there?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Three more Members have indicated they want to ask a question, and I want to try to get them in before 3 o’clock.
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q Good science and evidence should underpin sustainable fishing, yet at the moment electric pulse fishing is going on in the southern North sea. How can we devise a new framework that stops such practices and ensures that we pursue a precautionary approach to sustainable fisheries management?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q Before the Dutch built a whole new industry on the back of this, should the science not have come to a conclusion as to whether it was a good thing or not?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q So the new UK fishing policy can be better than the CFP when it comes to sustainable fisheries management.
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Dr O’Brien, given your long experience of going to Council, how do you envisage our country being treated during the transition period, when we will effectively have observer status?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Given your experience in the past, do you think it will be a problem that we are effectively attending and being consulted with, but are not having direct influence as we have had previously?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q No wonder they are petitioning for us to stay in. Can I ask you about recreational fishing? We have heard people petitioning that the recreational fishing industry ought to have a more official stakeholder role in future. Is that a view that you have sympathy with? What is your view of the potential value of designating certain fisheries and species for recreational fishing only?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q On the science, one of the major frustrations—I was going to use the word “criticisms”, but that is too strong—I hear from fishermen is that the science tends to be at least two years old by the time it is actually applied, and they are seeing more fish in their nets or in the water than they are told to expect. Is there any way we can make the science more current, or is there anything we can do in the future to help with that situation?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Do you think the Bill creates an opportunity to do that?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
We are in the last minute.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I have a quick question. We have heard some representations that we should make the MSY commitment more rigid in the Bill. If the price of getting an agreement with Norway is showing some understanding for their other scientific metrics, is it better to show that flexibility or to walk away and let everyone unilaterally set their own quota?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
On behalf of the Committee, Dr O’Brien, I am grateful for your evidence today. We discharge you and invite our next witnesses to the table.
Examination of Witnesses
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
I welcome our next witnesses and remind Members that we have to finish this session at 3.30 pm. Could the witnesses introduce themselves and their organisations?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Obviously, a number of the areas that you cover will be highly influenced by the work of the IFCAs—the inshore fisheries and conservation authorities. What is your view of how that model works?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Obviously, IFCAs now have the power to make bylaws through their local authority sponsors. What additional powers would you be seeking through the Bill?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q You would like almost a consultation role for the IFCAs in the way the quota allocation is done.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q We have had some representations about the suitability of more of an effort-based quota, particularly for the inshore fleet, rather than a tonnage quota. As we set out in our White Paper, we certainly want to pilot and explore that for the inshore fleet. Do you think that would make more sense as a management tool for fishing effort?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally, some shellfish, particularly crabs and lobsters, tend at the moment to be managed predominantly by IFCAs through technical conservation. We also have the western waters regime, which is effectively a days at sea quota regime, which is not very satisfactory. A number of people have said that we should move either to a catch quota system for crabs and lobsters, or to restrictions on the number of pots that can be used, for instance, and try to do that nationally. Do you think that that is worth exploring, or should it just be left to the IFCAs?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Coastal communities have been among the hardest hit by austerity since 2010, but there is a real chance that fishing could be part of a coastal community renaissance, if it is delivered in the right way. What are the things that you are looking for in the Bill to deliver the renaissance that, whichever side of the House Members are on, we all want to see in our coastal communities?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Order. Apologies—with two witnesses, we have only half the time, so we have to keep the answers short.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q In terms of supporting small fleets, which generally speaking are the ones that have the potential to have the biggest impact as quickly as possible in coastal communities, what measures do you feel we need to ensure are in the Bill to support the small fleet in particular?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q You referred to the need for co-ordination between marine and land-based planning. Would you say that the same would apply for economic regeneration and a role for local enterprise partnerships?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q This is more to Elaine. Clause 10 is about the power to grant licences. Scottish Ministers and Northern Ireland Departments can do it. The Scottish west coast fishing fleet is in close proximity to Northern Ireland; they fish in the same water for the same stocks. How concerned are you and your members about the possibility of different regulatory frameworks for Scotland and Northern Ireland, and what damage could that do to the west of Scotland fleet?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q Has there been any analysis of what damage that would do to places such as Tarbert or Oban?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q How important to Community Inshore Fisheries Alliance members is keeping current access to EU markets, and is there any analysis of the damage that time delays would have on your ability to export?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Amy, do you have any comments on that?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q You started off by talking about the local fisheries management, which was very interesting. Harking back to what Dr O’Brien said about the data and how, by the time you have collected it all from the whole country, a lot of it will be out of date, do you think the local fisheries management approach would help that agility in making sure that the data is more up to date, particularly if the local fishermen are working with the scientists on a more real-time basis?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
I would like to get your take on the prospect of the redistribution of quotas. Obviously, on the west coast of Scotland there is a pattern of under-10s and smaller boats prevailing, and they tend to land, by volume, a much smaller share of the UK catch, given the quantity of the fleet. What opportunity do you think there could be to enhance the distribution of quotas among the smaller boats, particularly those on the west coast of ScotlandQ ?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q That is great. It is encouraging. The Department for Work and Pensions defines fishing as an unskilled industry. What is your take on that view?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q This question is for Elaine. You will notice from my accent that I am a west coaster. I am of an age where I have seen the demise of the fleets running from Stranraer way up through to Oban, and I would love to see that return. Do you think this Bill and other changes to the CFP, or the absence of the CFP, will give us an opportunity? Should we have better training to make that industry more skilled than people perceive it to be? Should we have courses to encourage young men and women to go to sea and secure the fish that we have in relative abundance?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q We should make the conditions and the financial rewards better and we could grow the industry in due course.
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q We heard earlier from one of the big shellfish companies and we asked it about the impact of tariffs—potentially, 8% tariffs on shellfish. How would that impact on smaller producers?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q This is an enabling Bill, but what degree of certainty do you feel about what fishing is going to look like in Great Britain in the years to come as a result of the Bill? Are you confident?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to come back to something that Elaine Whyte said earlier about the concern that there might be different rules for different parts of the fleet, with Northern Ireland having access to west of Scotland waters, for instance. Could you explain a bit more what your concern is? Obviously, the Bill is trying to resolve quite a difficult tension, which is that fisheries is a devolved matter, yet it is also highly affected by international negotiations, which are reserved. The way it does that is by giving each Administration the ability, through clause 10, to have licence conditions, but then separate to that, in clause 31 and schedule 6, it gives the Administrations the ability to set their own technical conservation measures, so if they wanted to have a closure, for instance, that would apply to everyone, whether or not it was on the vessel licence. There are two means of doing it, and I think the Bill squares that rather difficult circle through that means.
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q Mr Grant said, and I think we would all agree, that we hope to see young men and women from throughout Scotland going into a revived indigenous fishing industry, but we need to have an industry there for them to go into. How do we bridge that gap? Who will crew the boats and the fish processing plants while we wait for that throughput? Given the geography of the west of Scotland in particular, the inshore fishing fleet is now at a critical point, is it not?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q But, particularly on the west coast, how do we crew or keep that—
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q I would just like to ask for your view of the grant system offered in the Bill. Do you think it may support smaller fishermen, particularly when we are looking at fleet renewal and the potential industrial benefit to the UK? Do you think it is an opportunity? Do you think it needs better definition, or is it too vague?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q Do you think that the ending of the European funding is a risk? It is not clearly defined what will substitute for it in the future. If anything, there might be a cut in the overall level of state aid into the sector.
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Q I think we have come to a natural conclusion, unless there are any final 10-second points that witnesses wish to put to the hon. Members.
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
I am grateful to both witnesses for their evidence, and I thank them for their attendance today.