Fisheries Bill
Public Bill Committee, 4 December 2018.
(Morning)
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
As you all know, we are here to consider the informative bit of the Fisheries Bill. We will first consider the programme motion, which is on the amendment paper. After that we will consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and then a motion allowing us to deliberate in private. I call the Minister to move the programme motion.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Under the programme order, the deadline for amendments to be considered at the first line-by-line sitting of the Committee will be the rise of the House on Thursday, so if Members wish to table amendments to be considered next week in Committee, they must table them by the rise of the House on Thursday.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Why on earth we have agreed to potentially meet in private now, I have no clue. However, the learned Clerks know better than I. We will now move on to the interesting part of the session.
Examination of Witnesses
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I am delighted to welcome the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and the National Fisherman’s Federation Organisation to give evidence. For the sake of Hansard, will you kindly introduce yourselves before we start questions?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q What have been the main shortcomings of the common fisheries policy from your perspective, and what would you hope to achieve through a domestic fisheries policy?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Obviously, at the moment every part of the UK has access to each other’s waters. The Bill protects that in the first clause by having a key purpose of equal access. Are you happy with that approach?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally, on the issue of a fair sharing methodology in future international negotiations, do you share the approach outlined in our White Paper, which is a move to using zonal attachment as the basis for future sharing arrangements?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
The Minister asked about redistribution of quota from our EU friends to UK fishers. Do you feel that there are enough powers in the Bill to give certainty about how redistribution will take place, and is redistribution a nice-to-have aim and objective, or is it something that will actually happen if it is included in the BillQ ?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I am very sorry, but I am finding it hard to hear you, perhaps because I am a bit deaf. Would you mind speaking up a bit?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Do you get a sense that there is a plan for how quota will be drawn down against our EU friends, rather than our having the ability to have control our waters, and then have the same quota share between UK and EU fishers?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Okay, but there is nothing in the Bill necessarily that gives certainty about when that drawdown period will take place against it.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q On the economic link, having fish caught under UK quota but landed in foreign ports means that the economic link between the UK quota—fish in UK waters—and the benefits to the UK is not always naturally construed. How much fish, especially from quota owned by foreign boats and caught by our EU friends, is landed in UK ports at the moment? How much should be landed, if we are to impress that an economic link should be included in the Bill?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q But that is about ownership rather than about landing, is it not?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
I have two questions. Do you think the Bill will lead to increased fishing opportunities both for new entrants and for what until now have been called the under-10s, although I think it is important we try to get away from that descriptor? Picking up on the Minister’s comments about equal allocation across all UK fisheries for all UK boats, do you think that principle lies comfortably with the sustainable management of individual fisheries? I say that because thereQ is a concern that it is difficult to do that when you get boats from other parts of the UK coming into waters off the East Anglian coast, and not only off the East Anglian coast. It is a concern that has been raised with me about waters off the north-east. Yesterday I was hearing about problems with managing cuttlefish down off the south-west where this problem had arisen. I would welcome both your views on those two issues.
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Mr Armstrong, in answer to an earlier question you suggested that we might see a date of what you called sovereignty over quotas and waters. You suggested that the end of the implementation period as it is now—December 2020—was the ideal date. How does that square with the fact that there may be a backstop arrangement and the Prime Minister has said that, depending on what happens, we might need to extend the implementation period? How would inserting a date in the Bill work with the other flexibilities that are still to be resolvedQ ?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
May I lay down a red line, particularly for our detailed consideration of the Bill, starting next week? The backstop and all that is not in the Bill. Those are, of course, important matters and they do have some relevance to and bearing on it, but our purpose today—and, indeed, during the process of consideration in detail, as of next week—is to consider in detail the words that are on the face of the Bill. Therefore, next week I will take a tough line on the broader political considerations and say that they are, I am afraid, simply out of order. They are important, but let us focus on the Bill.
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q I accept your guidance, Mr Gray, but clearly there is the suggestion of the clear date versus how that would fit into the bigger picture. It is the same thing when we talk about future quota allocations and how that will work. Mr Armstrong mentioned the issue of tariffs in his answer. In yesterday’s questions to the Attorney General he said that the backstop arrangements meant that Northern Ireland would have tariff-free access to the EU and tariff-free access to Great Britain, whereas no other market will have that. Is that a concern, and how could that be addressed in this Bill?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Going back to Mr Pollard’s question about UK vessels landing elsewhere, for example Norway, can you say a little about what motivates fishermen to land elsewhere? What changes are required in our ports or onshore infrastructure to make landing in the UK more attractive, and is that covered by the Bill?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q So there is the favourable price that you might get from landing elsewhere, but is there something about the ports or the processing facilities, in Norway for example, that the UK needs to catch up on? Could we do something through the Bill to help improve that? When you mentioned money, I thought you were talking about investment in our onshore facilities as well as the price on the market.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Good morning, gentleman. I do not want to dwell on the date, but I think it will be an important part of our discussions when we come to line-by-line scrutiny. Your suggestion is that the date would be 31 December 2020, which is the currently envisaged end of the transitional period. You are resistant to any idea that we should extend the transitional period. How do you see fisheries management working from 29 March 2019 to 31 December 2020Q ?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q What does that mean in practical terms?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q That is the December Fisheries Council in 2020 anticipating the conclusion of the transitional period. You say that that is the position as you understand it. Is that on the basis of your discussions with the Government?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q That is in 2020, but not in 2019.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q For the purposes of what would currently be the divvying up of whatever comes out of the EU-Norway arrangements, what is our status at the December Council in 2020? Are we there as the start of a new bilateral—is that how you understand it?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q We anticipate that this year we will have a difficult December Council, given the science and what we know about North sea cod and other species. In my experience, these years very rarely come along in isolation. I think the anxiety is about how we are able to influence these decisions. The decisions that were made back in 2002 and 2003 about cod stocks in the North sea were central to the prosperity of the fleet. If we are not at the table in 2019 and 2020, how will we avoid becoming the dish of the day?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q Have the Government ever given you any explanation of why they put us in this position in the first place? They were not going to give in, but then they gave in. Did they tell you why?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q But why was fisheries put in that?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q So it was in order to get a deal?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Mr Carmichael, that is your last question. We are all drifting beyond the Bill. We have four questioners and 10 minutes to get them in.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Indeed.
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Mr Armstrong, the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation suggests that you represent every owner and skipper from Solway to Shetland. For the record, could you tell us who you represent and about the diversity of the fishing community in ScotlandQ ?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q Clause 1(7) on page 2 and clause 10 on page 6 talk about the location of home ports and how licences will be administered by Scottish Ministers or by a Northern Ireland department. As regards your membership, how important is it that, within the confines of the Bill, there is a level-playing field across the United Kingdom post-Brexit, and that one part of the UK is not given a competitive advantage over another in fishing?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q So you have no concerns that any one part of the United Kingdom may be given a competitive advantage against another post-Brexit?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q If Northern Ireland were given preferential treatment ahead of Scotland, Wales and an English fleet.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We are drifting a little. I am keen to extract maximum benefit from our witnesses. We have three more questioners, so I will move on, if you do not mind, Brendan.
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Gentlemen, notwithstanding the desire to have a date of sovereignty in the Bill, which may or may not be possible, in general terms are you content with the Bill?Q
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Clause 19 sets out that the Secretary of State must consult devolved Administrations and the Marine Management Organisation when setting total levels of catches and days at sea. However, the clause does not define the manner or rigour of that consultation, or indeed any other form of consultation with stakeholders or interested parties. Do you feel that there could be an opportunity to enhance the Bill and clause 19 with further definition of what that should entailQ ?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I apologise to the remaining questioners, whom we have not been able to squeeze in. We have run out of time, bar a few seconds, so I shall simply say thank you very much to both witnesses for extremely useful evidence that will greatly add to our consideration of the Bill next week. Thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to come and give evidence to us this morning.
Examination of Witness
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Q With no further ado, I welcome the representative of the UK Seafood Industry Alliance. Will you kindly introduce yourself for the record?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q We heard earlier about the problems with relative stability as a sharing basis. I know that in a former life you had a role in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when things such as relative stability were set up and principles such as the Hague preference were established. Could you explain to the Committee the genesis of the existing relative stability shares and why the UK ended up with a smaller share than has seemed appropriate?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We have until 10.55, so let us try to keep it brief.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Mr Kuyk, I am keeping a close eye on the clock and would be most grateful if you would restrict your remarks as much as you can.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Thank you. Now I fast-forward to your current role. Most of your members import large quantities of cod, predominantly, from Iceland, Norway and even, I think, Russia, Finland and the Barents sea. Can you explain the nature of the preferential trade agreements we have with Iceland and Norway, and also the process of autonomous tariff rate quotas for other countries?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally, leaving aside shellfish and some of the species that we export for which tariffs are quite low, and looking specifically at your members who predominantly process highly processed cod products, what proportion of their production is re-exported to the EU, and what proportion of those highly processed products is sold in the UK?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q The Bill does not talk very much about processing. If we were to include an economic link for anyone catching fish under a UK quota, where more fish was landed in the UK ports, what would the impact of that be on the UK processing sector?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Thank you. I think you are underselling the success story.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Before we go on, Mr Grant looks as if he has a question on this particular point.
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q The processing industry accounts for more than 50% of those employed in the fishing industry as a whole. Is there anything in the Bill that gives you concern that the security of those 14,000-plus jobs could be affected, or is there anything that gives you concern about the supply of fish, which is essential to secure the jobs? Is there anything in the Bill that concerns you in relation to job security and the security of the supply of fish?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q I was just going to say that I think you are underselling the success story of British fish processing. I think the vast majority of our jobs in fishing are in processing. If more fish were landed, there would be a commensurate increase in potential jobs in processing. Earlier, you mentioned statistics about how much fish we export and how much fish we import, because there does seem to be an imbalance there. I do not think it is widely understood that we mainly export the fish we catch and import the fish we eat.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Exactly. What are the complications? What situations would you want referenced in the Bill to ensure that there is easy and free trade in those fish products? I imagine that any tariff could have quite an impact on the level of trade across our boundary. Is there anything that needs to be included in the Bill to give fish processors the confidence that they need to invest in more facilities in UK ports and elsewhere?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We have 10 minutes for five questions. Let us be quick.
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
You said that 80% of our exports go to the EUQ .
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q Is there any scope for increasing exports outside the EU?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q The Faroe Isles require boats fishing in their waters to land their catches in their ports, therefore benefitting their fish processing industry. Do you envisage similar provisions in the Bill to make that arrangement for Scottish ports?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q As a supplementary, clause 28 mentions a grant scheme, which may be an opportunity.
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q I have anecdotal evidence that Dutch fishermen are currently catching about 80% of their small pelagic species in UK waters, and about 90% of that is being exported, with minimal processing, straight to west Africa. What can we do in this country to essentially cut out the middleman and make sure that the UK fleet is able to catch, land and export straight to these third countries?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Going back to what you said earlier about how the majority of our exports go to the EU, do you have any data on how much we export to the EU that is just minimally processed and further exported to third countries?
Jeremy Lefroy (Conservative, Stafford)
You mentioned earlier the import of cod from the Barents sea, Russia, which is obviously outside the EU and the European economic area. What sort of friction is there in bringing that into the UK market, in comparison with what might be experienced in the future.Q
Jeremy Lefroy (Conservative, Stafford)
Q Do we import any fish from outside EU markets?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q I have a quick question. On supply chain fairness, there have been concerns in the media about the involvement of modern slavery in the employment practices of foreign food processors. Can you give a sense of what the UK processing sector is doing to ensure that no fish in our system are processed or caught using methods of modern slavery?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q So an objective in the Bill to ensure supply chain fairness—to ensure that there are no practices like modern slavery going on—would not be an obstacle to your sector operating?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Mr Kuyk, I thank you very much for your most learned, well informed and well expressed evidence, which will be extremely useful to the Committee.
Examination of Witnesses
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
It is a great pleasure to welcome back Mr Martin Salter, who was the Member of Parliament for Reading West for a number of years and is a dear old friend of mine, and Paul Trebilcock from the UK Association of Fish Producer Organisations. Mr Salter is from the Angling Trust. Perhaps you could kindly introduce yourselves briefly for the record.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I will start with a question for Paul Trebilcock. The very first clause of the Bill sets out a number of important environmental targets for the sustainable harvest of our marine environment. In the south-west we have particular challenges with maximum sustainable yields in a mixed fishery. Would you explain, from the point of view of fishermen in the south-west, the types of challenge we have as we try to abide by that target?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Some people say we can learn from Norway, which uses MSY and other approaches, too. Is there anything you think we can learn from that?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Mr Salter, I feel you are a bit glass half empty about the Bill. Clause 28(1)(e), which I am sure you have read, creates the powers to give financial assistance for
“the promotion or development of recreational fishing.”
That is in the Bill and it is the first time ever that we have created power to give financial assistance to angling. Is that something you welcome?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I have done this job for five years. We meet every year—you are always invited ahead of the December Council, along with the commercial fishing sector, to discuss our priorities. Bass has dominated discussions, certainly in the past three years. What is it that you seek for us to do with legal powers? Obviously the Bill is about legal powers. Are you saying you would like a licensing regime for recreational anglers? In what way would you like us to legally recognise you?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Do you not think that that is there in the very first clause of the Bill, in subsection (3), which states that the “precautionary objective” is to ensure that “living marine biological resources” are exploited in such a way that they are harvested
“above biomass levels capable of producing maximum sustainable yield.”
There is a legal commitment there.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Paul, at the moment, not all UK fisheries are classed as sufficiently sustainable under the UK Government’s procurement policies for the Government to buy fish from them. What needs to happen for all UK fisheries to be classed as sustainable, so the UK Government’s procurement policies enable their fish to be bought and so we can be proud that all our fisheries are sustainable?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Martin, I agree that this Bill seems to undervalue the contribution of recreational angling and fishing to the UK economy, especially our coastal communities. You mentioned in your earlier remarks that recreational angling was a key stakeholder in other jurisdictions around the world, with the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand all recognising recreational angling as a key stakeholder. Do you think it should be included as part of this Bill that recreational angling is a key stakeholder and should be regarded as such as the new fisheries policy is introduced?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q On that point, we have had representations about Cornish bluefin tuna effectively being allocated as a catch-and-release stock in future. That seems to be an area where there might be a tension between recreational fishing and those commercial fishers who might want to catch and use that in the food supply chain. How can the tension be resolved for a stock such as that, and is there anything that needs to go in the Bill about how stocks could be better managed where there is a potential clash?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q I have a couple of questions. Mr Salter, the highlight of the Second Reading debate was the vision of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) for what recreational fishing might do for local economies. Does recreational fishing need to be mentioned in the Bill for you to actually achieve that objective?
Mr Trebilcock, the Bill suggests an enhanced role for producer organisations. Are you fit for purpose—not your specific PO but generally—to fulfil such a role? At the beginning of last month the European Commission issued a reasoned opinion to the UK Government, which admittedly was about the management of POs but in which there was a strong suggestion that you are not doing what you should be.
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q If I could just come back on that, you said POs function very much for the benefit of their local communities. The Lowestoft producer organisation in my constituency is made up of three or four accountants in the town but seven trawlers that never come near the port. I do not think that that is functioning properly.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We have eight minutes for five questions.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q Paul, I think I agree with you that the work of the POs is much undervalued, and frankly not much understood. Tell us a little bit about the work of POs in terms of trading quota across the different parts of the UK.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q What happens if the Administration in one part of the UK, for example, tries to restrict quota trading among other parts?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q And the Bill as it stands would allow that to continue free of political interference?
Jeremy Lefroy (Conservative, Stafford)
Mr Salter, you rightly placed great emphasis on sustainability. Given that in the UK we export most of our fish and export most of what we catch, most of what is consumed comes from places in which as an independent coastal state we rightly have no control over whether things are fished sustainably. Do you see a role for consumer-type markings on sustainability? Should that be left up to the industry or should there be some kind of legal basis so that we walk the walk on sustainability as well as talking the talk?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
We are running out of time. May we have a last question from Alan Brown?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q Mr Salter, you seem to be talking about having a percentage of quotas ring-fenced for recreational angling. How would getting that into the Bill work? Would it apply to future quotas to allow expansion of the sector?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
That is a complication, because trying to get a legislative framework that gives that certainty—
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Order. We are strictly limited by time and it is now 11.25 am, so I fear I have to call this evidence session to an end. The Committee will meet again at 2 pm. The Committee Room will be locked in the meantime, so hon. Members may leave their papers here if they wish. I thank the witnesses very much indeed for their useful evidence.
Examination of Witness
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
In this afternoon’s sitting we will first hear oral evidence from the New Under Ten Fishermen’s Association. Will the witness please introduce himself?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
I shall hand over to the Minister for the first questions.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q60 This morning we heard in evidence that the principle of relative stability had served the inshore fleet particularly badly because of the data and the absences of data in the ’70s and ’80s when the track record was established. What are the key priorities of the inshore sector as we leave the European Union and set our own domestic policy?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On management, we outlined a number of ideas in the White Paper. Some have suggested that we should move away from a Marine Management Organisation-administered under-10-metre pool and towards a producer organisation for the inshore sector. What is your view of such an approach?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q But do you accept that there could be more than one PO covering the inshore sector?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q You shouldn’t force everyone to join it if they don’t want to.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I have two other points that we raised in the White Paper that I want your views on. First, do you think that the under-10-metre category is still the right criteria to use, or should we look at other measures, such as engine capacity or the zone in which they fish, so that there would be a different way of defining the artisanal, small-scale fleet? Secondly, we have obviously had quite a lot of representations about the possibility of moving more to an effort-based regime for the inshore fleet rather than a quota system. What is your view of that?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
A real consensus is emerging around the Bill that there should be more focus on giving more quota—more fishing opportunities—to the smaller boats. The question is about how we do it. From your point of view, what would be the best way within the Bill, and within the powers it contains, to encourage more fishing opportunities to be held by smaller boats, which generally speaking are the least impactful on the environment and contribute more to their coastal communities?Q
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q This morning I asked about strengthening the economic link, so if you catch fish under a UK quota you should land at least half of it in a UK port. Can you explain where the under-10 fleet—the small boats—mainly land their fish? Do they land it in UK ports already, or is a sizeable portion landed in foreign countries?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Finally, I have a question that is not about quotas—it is about marine safety. The Bill talks about our potentially being able to allocate quota that is drawn down from our EU friends in a slightly different manner from the FQA system we have at the moment, and to apply different conditions to that. You mentioned social, economic and environmental criteria potentially being some of those conditions. Marine safety is an issue for many small boats because of the pressures on those boats and the fact that the 10-metre limit has led to lots of dumpy boats with strength rather than stability. Would you give us a sense of the implications for the sector of amendments to the Bill that introduced a requirement for marine safety to be such a condition, to ensure that people who go out to catch our fish are safe, and tell us what the current safety levels are in the sector?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q On that point, there seems to be universal agreement that personal locator beacons attached to lifejackets are a good thing, but we know there is a cost to fishermen of buying new lifejackets with PLBs and registering them. Do you think that, if there were a specified improvement on marine safety in the Bill, lifejackets with PLBs could be one area that might make a big improvement in marine safety?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
My question is a variation on the Opposition spokesman’s point. It is commonly recognised that the inshore fleet—the under-10s—has had a raw deal as far as access to quota and fishing opportunities is concerned. The Bill is largely based on the assumption that an increase in opportunities, as a result of taking back control of our waters, will give us an uplift that will provide additional fishing opportunities for the inshore fleet. Do you think that goes far enough, or do we need to look at something bolder and more radical in terms of quota allocation or fishing opportunitiesQ ?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Thank you for coming along, Mr Percy. We have heard a lot about control of our own waters, but that has to be set against access to markets, particularly for your members. How confident are you that the interests of your members are fully understood and fully protected by what is in the BillQ ?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q As the Member for Argyll and Bute, I take on board what you are saying. We are absolutely dependent on speed of access to market. What should we in this Committee be looking at over the next few weeks to ensure that vital shellfish market remains open and there is that speed of delivery from Loch Fyne to Madrid, for example? How do we ensure that that is as seamless as possible, and that we keep those vitally important markets?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
On access to market versus access to waters, I think you mentioned that there would be some exchange of access for quota in any future arrangement. I presume you would agree that it is important that, as an independent coastal state, we have full control of that access so that we can use it as leverage. I hesitate to use the phrase “bargaining chip”, but when we go into future annual negotiations, that has to be the leverage that we have.Q
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Is there anything in this Bill that you think we should focus on, in order to add more power to our elbow in those future negotiations?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q One more question, if I may. Going back to what you were saying earlier, I think your exact words were along the lines of “Unfortunately, quotas have become a commodity.” With quotas being sellable and buyable, they are an asset, at least. If quotas were to be more fairly distributed among the smaller vessels in future, how would you avoid them just becoming sellable commodities, bought up by others?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
IQ represent Hartlepool, which is one of those coastal communities affected long ago by unfair quotas for under-10s. There is an argument that our industry could be revived if fairer quotas were allocated. In your opinion, how many ports would benefit from an uplift in quotas?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
Q I get the impression from representatives from the larger fleets that they would oppose quota redistribution. What arguments are there against that?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Does any other Government Member wish to ask a question?
Jeremy Lefroy (Conservative, Stafford)
Thank you very much, Mr Hanson. I am very interested in what you said about 50% of the quota being in foreign hands. Is there an example, as far as you are aware, of any EU coastal state that makes better use of the common fisheries policy for under-10 metres or smaller boats, or is it just universal that it is dominated by large vesselsQ ?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Briefly, I want to explore with you how we get from here to there. As you say, there is a case for the redistribution of quota. I am very interested in your thoughts about how you stop quota or other management tools from becoming a tradeable commodity. As you say, some of these interests are big and well resourced. Rich people have good lawyers and a legitimate expectation in their property rights. How do you get to the point where you can change the nature of quotaQ ?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q So the idea of auction does not recommend itself to you.
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
We have 35 seconds if anyone has a one-word question and a one-word answer. Is there anything else you wish to say to the Committee, Mr Percy?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Good afternoon, Mr Haslam. For the benefit of the Committee, could you introduce yourself and your organisation?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I am sure that the Committee will have noticed from your biography that you have long experience in the fisheries protection fleet and the Royal Navy, and most recently at the MMO. Before getting on to the work we have done on future enforcement, I wonder whether you could describe to the Committee what the MMO control room in Newcastle does, how we monitor fishing vessels and how many fisheries protection vessels we currently have access to.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I understand that at the moment there are three offshore patrol vessels, two of which are normally on duty in English waters. Could you explain what has taken place, as part of your planning over the last year for enforcement after we leave the EU, to get additional offshore patrol vessels from the Royal Navy? What discussions have been had and what work has been done with Border Force on the ability to redeploy some of its assets? Could you explain anything you have done by way of procuring aerial surveillance from, say, the coastguard service?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally, the Ministry of Defence recently announced that it had delayed the decommissioning of the existing three offshore patrol vessels, and it intends to introduce four new ones, I think. How much difference will having that extra capacity in reserve make, should it be needed?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I have one other final point. Enforcement is obviously devolved, so what you have described is what is taking place and what is planned for in England. Could you describe how the challenge differs, for instance in Scotland, where we obviously have a large interest? What work do we do with Marine Scotland and its enforcement vessels?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q A moment ago you gave the figure of 2,000 hours of surveillance. Could you give us a sense of how the number of hours that have been deployed for enforcement has changed since 2010?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q The figures I have seen suggest that in 2010 there were 16,000 hours, and now we have 2,000. That trajectory, that path, that reduction of enforcement, at a time when we will probably, based on risk assessments, need to protect and enforce our waters to a greater extent than in the past, concerns me. It seems quite a challenge. What is your assessment of whether we will see more things like the scallop wars, not in French waters but in UK waters, after Brexit? Do you think sufficient resource is provided to ensure that UK waters are kept safe and protected and that our regulations are properly enforced?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q The Batch 2 River class that you are getting as part of the fishery patrol vessels are very capable ships, and not having the Batch ones retired is a good move. That total fleet, though, relies on numbers of people to put them to sea and we know that there is huge pressure within the Royal Navy to provide people. Given your former experience with the Fishery Protection Squadron, could you enlighten us a little bit? Having more hulls is a good thing, but is there a sufficient number of people to man those hulls to ensure that we have the necessary enforcement capacity?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Finally, you mentioned the consultation on inshore vessel monitoring systems. It seems to be a good thing to switch from an automatic identification system. Anecdotal evidence suggests that fishermen turn their AIS off if they find fish so as not to alert their friends as to where there is a good catch, but I-VMS does not come with that switch. Is that right? Can you explain what difference that would make to vessel monitoring with regard to enforcement and safety?
Jeremy Lefroy (Conservative, Stafford)
Q Could you give us a brief insight into the kinds of enforcement actions you have to take now and whether they are likely in future to be different in type or in quantity, or in both?
Jeremy Lefroy (Conservative, Stafford)
Q Would you envisage it to be similar in future or different in the nature or quantity of inspections?
Jeremy Lefroy (Conservative, Stafford)
Q Finally, what percentage of inspections result in you finding that rules have not been complied with?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q Following on from what Mr Lefroy was saying, in planning for a no-deal Brexit or a much-changed situation, what analysis has been carried out by your department about the different nature of the increased threat post-Brexit? Based on that, what assessment has been made of how your capability is going to have to grow to meet that increased threat?
Brendan O'Hara (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)
Q Do you have the capacity, the capability and the funding to meet the worst-case scenario that we have talked about?
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Still on the subject of fisheries protection, you mentioned airborne surveillance earlier. One of the questions that fishermen in my constituency keep asking is: how does the eye in the sky seeing something wrong—somebody shooting their nets where they should not be shooting their nets, or whatever it is—turn into some kind of enforcement or some kind of actual protection, particularly in the future when there is no automatic equal access to our EEZ?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Although it is encouraging that the Royal Navy is making contingency plans with the River class, there is still concern about the differential in policing standards to which foreign vessels will be held relative to domestic vessels. I am just looking at what the planning is for that and at how you address the 80% fall in boardings in the past six years, from 1,400 to 278. That indicates a clear reduction in capability. Would it be helpful if the Bill defined that the Royal Navy has to provide a statutory capability, along with the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency, to deliver that enforcement in UK watersQ ?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q I was asking whether there should be a specific capability defined in the Bill about what our asset should be for fisheries protection.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to come back to a couple of points that were raised earlier. Could you tell us what work has been done in terms of personnel to identify people who have recently served in the Fishery Protection Squadron and who, if you needed a surge in capacity, might be able to be deployed again and already have the required training?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Secondly, in terms of managing access, additional access is sometimes granted in fisheries agreements. We do this in Scotland now; for instance, we allow the Faroes to catch 30% of their mackerel in UK waters. Could you explain how that process works? How does Marine Scotland enforce that process of managing conditional access?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q You have a tremendous range of experience. To what extent do you think that non-compliance can be driven in the mismatch between quota and stocks? Let me give you an idea of my thinking. Some 20 years ago I used to make modest sums of money in Banff sheriff court defending constituents of Mr Duguid who had caught their monkfish one side of the 4 degree line when all the quota was on the other, which led to misreporting. That was just a classic mismatch between where the quota was and where the stock was. To what extent do you think that that sort of mismatch drives non-compliance?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q One proposal that has come from the NFFO is for the establishment of formal advisory councils, so that you would be bringing scientists, conservationists, industry representatives and perhaps even those responsible for enforcement around the table. Do you think that would be effective in terms of delivering a management system that would be less reliant on enforcement?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q So you get away from that adversarial approach to enforcement?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Good afternoon, Mr Haslam. You said earlier that the MMO budget has been cut. How much has it been cut by since 2010 in cash or percentage terms? Secondly, related to that, you put in a big bid for an increase in resources in order to deal with a no-deal scenario. How much extra have you asked for and has the Minister indicated that he is going to provide itQ ?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Can you tell us how much more you have asked for?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Percentage versus current budgets, or in cash terms.
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Has the Minister indicated that might be forthcoming?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q But hitherto, this Government have cut 60% of your funding.
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
We have five minutes left for any further questions from the Government side. If not, Luke Pollard.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q I want to pick up on your earlier answer where you described the inshore vessel monitoring system. Will foreign boats fishing in UK waters have a requirement to have IVMS on their boats, so you will be able to track where they are when they are in UK waters?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q So you have that power currently.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Just so I understand, you are saying that the UK will have that power in the future. Should that power be set out in the Bill—that this should be a requirement? My concern is that UK boats might have to have IVMS, but foreign boats might not, depending on what option we decide to put in the licence. There should be a level playing field between UK boats and foreign boats in UK waters, so should all boats not have to have IVMS on them?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
Q On the point you made about IVMS, would that extend to what I consider to be leisure fishing craft as well?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
To commercial vessels.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q The Bill includes provision for the Secretary of State to allocate fishing opportunities based on days at sea, as well as the fixed quota allocation. How does your enforcement action differ when you are looking at a boat using days at sea versus looking at a boat fishing against an FQA?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Can you answer that question quickly, Mr Haslam, because one other Member wishes to ask a question?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
I was also thinking about the licensing of vessels for fishing. Licensing of vessels or permits to fish in our waters may go to vessels not from within the EU 27. I assume that they can come from elsewhere in the globe; Q we are not confined to permitting vessels simply from Europe. My question is how do we ensure the seaworthiness of those vessels that may or may not receive a permit or licence to operate in our seas?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q No matter where that vessel emanates from.
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Thank you.
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
On behalf of the Committee, Mr Haslam, I thank you for your attendance and your evidence.
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
We now move on to our sixth witness, from the Blue Marine Foundation. Would you please introduce yourself and your organisation?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q May I ask for your general impressions of the Bill? Does it do the things that you would expect a domestic fisheries policy to do, or are there other elements that you would like to see included?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Are you happy that clause 1 broadly brings across the marine environment objectives from European legislation?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q We obviously have to look at marine planning in the context of the retained EU law coming across and that we have other bits of legislation. Some of those things are already provided for.
The second point I want to raise is on the fixed quota allocation—the FQA units—which has been the basis of quota allocation inside the UK, attached to individual vessels, as you know. We have been explicit in the White Paper, and we take the powers in the Bill to make a break from that, and to say that any additional fishing opportunities that come as we depart from relative stability could be allocated on a different basis. What is your view of the FQA units system?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Do you think a legal power is needed to do that? They passed legislation in the Faroes that effectively put people on notice, and said that after 10 years they would depart from an FQA system. Our view is that the Government could state that intention, at which point the clock would start ticking without the need to have a provision on the face of the Bill.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q You mention fisheries management and how that is missing from the Bill. In particular, fisheries management and how that fits with marine plans in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 seems to be omitted. Can you just expand on what you think the Bill is missing in fisheries management?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q On the dispute resolution mechanism that you are talking about, the Government seem to think that they have the powers to resolve disputes between the devolved administrations and the UK Government at the moment. Is it your view that that is the case, or would an explicit dispute mechanism requirement in the Bill make that easier in the future?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Finally, one of the areas that seems to be weaker in the Bill than in the common fisheries policy is the area around maximum sustainable yield and the removal of a commitment to achieve it by 2020. Where there are difficulties in achieving maximum sustainable yield by 2020, do you think that the MSY provisions in the Fisheries Bill are sufficiently robust to make sure that we are restoring stock levels in our oceans, especially as climate change seems to be missing as a theme from much of the Bill? Is that something that we could address?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q Tom, you were expressing concern at how a public asset might have inadvertently become a property right, and how that might constrain more radical reforms of the quota system. Could we go back to the court case of 2012-13 when Lord Justice Coulson put down his determination? I have heard some suggestions that the Secretary of State won that case against the POs, because what he was proposing was very reasonable and small-scale, and the POs were acting unreasonably. Is that a view that you would share, or would you say that Coulson allows one to go a step further?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Dr Appleby, you say that MSY is not necessary, and that hardwiring a greater onus on Ministers to adhere to MSY in terms of the allocation of future quotas is not necessarily the way to go. If we had more time—I take what you say about there being limited time—is there a way in which we could hardwire sustainability in respect of future fisheries management into this Bill?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q For clarification, you were saying that it is in Australian legislation that there are fisheries policies?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q And they are legally binding on Ministers to ensure those things are observed?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q I have one separate question. Do you take an environmental view of what the potential benefits might be of preserving certain fisheries or stocks for recreational fishing, as has happened elsewhere?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to come back to this point about some of the environmental criteria and potentially having a hard nib point for MSY, for instance, as a statutory target.
One unique thing about fisheries is that, in or out of the EU, they are subject to annual international fisheries negotiations. Norway, for instance, follows MSY but also follows lots of other scientific metrics that it thinks are superior to those that we use. In such a situation, do you think it is important to keep that flexibility, so that you can actually land an agreement with Norway, the Faroes, Iceland and the EU, or is it preferable to make it unlawful for the UK to reach such an agreement and just have everyone go off on their own and unilaterally set a tax?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
I have Alistair Carmichael and then Mike Hill, unless anybody else wishes to contribute.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q May I just tease out for a second or two the question of property rights as they pertain to FQA? As I understand your evidence so far, if we were to get to somewhere sensible on this, we would not start from here. Is that a fair comment? I can understand why you would take the idea of eight years and then think no—if I came to you and said I will take your house away in eight years’ time, you would not be very happy about that. At the same time, does the whole idea of quota auction not put beyond any doubt that this is a tradeable commodity?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q But that is what you could do with a blank sheet of paper. We do not have a blank sheet of paper; we have a history here of people borrowing large sums of money on the basis of their then having property rights that they can then offer up as security.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q So do you think that it would be possible for repatriated quota and existing quota to have different rights?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q You can slice it and dice it any way you like, but in essence you are talking about nationalising a private resource. You compensate for that, do you not?
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q Just 30 seconds on devolution, because I want to give colleagues some time. Is there not a conflict of interest where the United Kingdom is holding the reins but is parti pris in respect of the English interest as well?
Mike Hill (Labour, Hartlepool)
Q I have two simple questions. In your opinion, does the Bill provide the requirement for the UK fisheries to be sustainable? Should the Secretary of State provide annual statements on stock levels?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Mr Aldous wants to ask a question and we have just less than a minute left.
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q The Secretary of State has to consult with Welsh and Scottish Ministers and the Northern Irish on this. Are the English put at a disadvantage?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
The Minister will have several hours over the next few weeks to tell us what he thinks. Time is at a premium. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you Dr Appleby and the organisation for your submission. Watch the Bill with interest as it progresses.
Examination of witness
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
We now move to our final session of the day, which I remind colleagues must finish at 4 pm. The final witness is Aaron Brown of Fishing for Leave. Could you please introduce yourself as the witness?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Thank you very much for joining us. I know you have long been an advocate of an effort-based regime, rather than a quota-based regime or potentially a hybrid model. You will be aware that the White Paper sets out a commitment to pilot that, particularly with the inshore mixed fisheries. Could you just set out what your thoughts are in that respect and why you think an effort-based regime would be better than a quota-based regime?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Just to clarify, there is a different purpose behind a White Paper, which sets out your policy and what you seek to do with the powers, and a Bill that establishes the legal powers you need to deliver your policy. We would not need a specific clause to say, “You must run a trial,” in order to be able to run a trial; the legal powers to run a trial are in the existing clauses of the Bill.
Coming back to the principle, the difficulty with fisheries is that, while you have said effort does not work, nothing quite works on fisheries. That is why it becomes a circular argument. You seem to be arguing for a return to catch composition rules, which themselves became slightly discredited so that people tried to move away from them. The challenge is that an effort regime works best in a mixed fishery where it is harder to segregate out the fish, but a tonnage system works best in, say, the pelagic.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Do you think that fish should be a public asset and that that should be defined in the Bill?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q One of the questions asked earlier was about auctioning additional fishing opportunities, and one of the key concerns that Fishing for Leave has raised when we have met has been about how auctioning could favour people who already have a quota, who already have cash, which would not support the small boats, on which there should probably be the greater focus. Do you have any concerns about where auctioning sits?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q You mentioned effort, and you suggested a hybrid scheme between FQAs and days at sea. There are concerns that the Bill gives the Secretary of State powers to allocate fishing opportunities simply on days at sea, without any qualification after that. But the White Paper spoke about there being a series of trials to assess whether days at sea would deliver against the objectives. Do you think that the simple inclusion of days at sea without any qualification that comes afterwards could make that more problematic?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Finally, we have heard today that the way fishing is conducted in UK waters has changed over many years, with new technologies and greater efficiency in catching fish. There is a new development called electronic pulse-beam fishing, which I have a lot of problems with. Although this level of detail might not be included in a framework Bill such as this one, we received representations—I tend to agree with them—that that practice should be banned. Do you have strong views about where electronic pulse-beam fishing sits within acceptable fishing practices?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
There is considerable interest in asking questions in this session. We have to finish at 4 pm, so can I ask for short questions and shorter answers, please?
Peter Aldous (Conservative, Waveney)
Q I will not comment on pulse fishing, because I agree with you, Mr Brown. I think the Minister said that the Government are happy to look at an effort-based pilot. I am conscious that there was a pilot in the past. What was the outcome of that? What shortcomings were there, and what lessons might we learn for future pilots?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
IQ think you touched on this topic earlier on; you said you would probably come on to it. Do you have a view on the discard prevention charging scheme that is in the Bill and on how transparent it is and how it would actually work?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
We have to move on, sorry. We have to finish at 4 pm and we may have a Division in the House before then, so we have to be quick on questions, or all Members will not get in. Any further questions, Mr Brown?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q In terms of perverse incentives and the process of making money out of these fish, you said that they would be landed for free. Could there not be a risk of collusion, with fish being landed and processed so that some of that money is recouped?
Bill Grant (Conservative, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Q I noted that you were very much against the big boys, or the financially powerful, coming in on an auction system to buy up the quotas or the right to fish. Bearing in mind that skippers with smaller quotas or rights to fish sold them on to those people, what is your alternative to that system? How would you make it fair?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
I call Alistair Carmichael. We have nine minutes left, and four Members wish to speak.
Alistair Carmichael (Liberal Democrat, Orkney and Shetland)
Q The NFFO and the SFF told us this morning that they wanted to see a commencement date on the face of the Bill, namely 31 December 2020. What advantages would there be to such an amendment?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Thank you. I want to get Members in. I call David Duguid.
David Duguid (Conservative, Banff and Buchan)
Q Thank you, Mr Hanson. Mr Brown, there has been a lot of talk today about the ownership of quotas. As Mr Carmichael said earlier, if we were to design this again from scratch, we would not start from where we are. A lot of what you describe sounds like it might work if you were starting from scratch, but I cannot help but feel a bit squeamish about the idea of taking something away from someone who owns something—I am a Conservative; I cannot help myself. I do not see that as being fair. Not only does it in essence involve taking ownership of an asset away from someone, even over time, but how fair do you think it is that the fishermen who benefit, the smaller fishermen who would get a bigger share of the quota, in some previous generations might have benefited financially from selling that quota to the larger fishermen in the first place?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
Okay. I call Owen Smith.
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Are you disappointed that, two and a half years after Brexit, so little seems to be resolved in concrete terms for the future of the fisheries?
Owen Smith (Labour, Pontypridd)
Q Perhaps you could tell us in a minute. Are you worried that several Cabinet members have warned that transition could go on for as long as four years?
Paul Sweeney (Labour, Glasgow North East)
Q Whether it is the smaller under-10 shellfish boats working out of the west coast ports, such as Stornoway or Oban, or the pelagic and white fish fleets running out of the big commercial ports, such as Fraserburgh and Peterhead, what benefit to Scottish ports would there be of introducing an economic link of landing at least 50% of all fish in Scottish ports?
David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)
I think that brings us almost to the end of the session. It is good to hear Mrs Thatcher still being quoted 38 years after she gained office. On behalf of the Committee, thank you, Mr Brown, for your contribution.