Agriculture Bill
Public Bill Committee, 25 October 2018.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. The Minister will move an amendment to the programme motion agreed by the Committee on Tuesday.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
I beg to move,
That on Thursday 25 October, after hearing oral evidence in accordance with the motion agreed to by the Committee on Tuesday 23 October, the Committee shall hear oral evidence from the following until not later than 4.30pm—
(1) Ulster Farmers’ Union;
(2) NFU Scotland;
(3) Scottish Government;
(4) Quality Meat Scotland.
I wish to record my thanks and that of the Committee to the patient Clerks, who have made accommodations following late requests for additional witnesses.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
On a point of order, Sir Roger. Simply put, we need to hear from the Rural Payments Agency and the Groceries Code Adjudicator. The one thing that came out of our earlier sittings was that no one quite knows how what is in the Bill will work, so we need to know from the extant organisations—they might be replaced, but that is something for the Government to decide—exactly how they think they will operate. I ask for another sitting to hear witnesses from those organisations. They might not be able to come, because of the short notice, but they should be called to account. I hope that would be agreed unanimously.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
In answer to the point of order, my understanding is that the organisations to which you refer were invited to participate but to date have failed to say that they want to attend. I am not sure, but I suppose we have similar powers to a Select Committee to compel them, but the fact is that they have not responded.
Furthermore, those organisations have the right to submit written evidence if they wish to do so at any time. I strongly advise and encourage those with an interest in the Bill—I of course am strictly impartial—to do so, if that is what the Committee wishes. I, however, have no power to alter an agreed programme, so I must now proceed.
I shall add one caveat: if by consensus—it has to be by consensus—the Committee decides to take further evidence later, my understanding is that that is probably practicably possible, but the Programming Sub-Committee would have to reconvene. I suggest that the most practical way forward, given that we are where we are and that those organisations have not responded, is that they are encouraged to provide written evidence, which will of course be made available to all the Committee. It goes without saying that, outside this Committee Room, neither the Chair nor anyone else has any power to restrict conversations between any Member and any organisation, so if Members wish to seek input and advice, they are at liberty to do so, as always.
Examination of Witnesses
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you for joining us. As always, I am afraid we are playing “beat the clock”, but we will do our best to ensure that everybody has a fair hearing. For the record, please introduce yourselves, starting with Professor Fox.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q 102 I would like to begin with a question for Mr Cross. I know you are involved with the Traceability Design User Group. A key section of the Bill deals with powers that would enable us to gather more data and information from anyone in the supply chain, including farmers. Can you set out what types of information you would like, or in what way you would like Government to use the provisions in the Bill, to support the important work that you are doing?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you. Ms Taylor and Professor Fox, if you wish to add anything, please feel free to do so.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q At the moment, we have something of a hotch-potch of different pieces of legislation and different systems covering all sorts of different species. There is a different system for cattle, pigs, sheep and so on. Could you explain what you think the common characteristics of a new, single, integrated animal ID and traceability system would look like?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q A final point: if we got that right and had a single, coherent system, what impact do you think that might have on our market-access efforts in other countries, in terms of giving reassurance to overseas veterinary authorities?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Good morning, everyone. A simple question: to make the Bill work, what additional enforcement powers will be needed, and do you think that they should be in the Bill or in subsequent statutory instruments?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q In terms of what the Environment Agency does at the moment, will that just move across into this new regime, or will you need a complete reskilling of your enforcement people to make this operate properly?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
On Tuesday we took evidence on public goods, and we primarily looked at environmental enhancements or public access. One possible public good, of course, would be to encourage farmers to participate in flood alleviation or protection schemes. How far—this may be specifically for the Environment Agency—do you think the Bill could be used to improve flood protection and to encourage farmers to participate in that type of schemeQ ?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Following on from that, obviously there are specific locations where you would wish that work to be carried out. Previously most schemes that farmers have taken up in terms of stewardship have been voluntary schemes. Do you feel there might need to be some degree of compulsion or managing a number of farms together? I can see a situation where 90% of the farmers in a flood plain participated, but if some did not, that could jeopardise what we are trying to do.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Finally, another aspect of the Bill is concerned with capital grants to farmers to improve their productivity and levels of production. Probably the most effective way of improving the productivity of the land is through land drainage schemes. Indeed, the previous schemes that the EU used to deliver would give, for example, a 90% grant for land drainage. How far do you think we might be pulling in two different directions, where some farmers are investing using public money to improve their productivity but actually put more water down the gutter, and other farmers are getting money for doing the opposite?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q So could you see a situation where many farmers could access drainage grants but you could actually block out bits of land where you would not consider that appropriate, with the Environment Agency taking a role in, in effect, blacklisting some of that land that could be brought into higher levels of production?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you. Quite a lot of Members want to ask questions and we do not have a great deal of time, so I ask for brevity both on the part of questioners and in answers, please.
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Mr Cross, in addition to having traceability of foods produced in this country, would you agree that it is important to have traceability of the foods that we shall be importing, in order to maintain some sort of level playing field? If we are going to do that, do you think that the traceability should include measures to protect the workforce for imported food, as well as measures relating to food safety and livestock welfareQ ?
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
MrQ Cross, you have been talking about the livestock information scheme. Is the intention, as you move towards a digital system, also to do away with the ear-tag identification system and move into higher technologies, with chips implanted in animals? And if it is not, are the powers of clause 1 to provide support to the health and welfare of livestock sufficient to enable payments to be made on a productivity basis, to allow livestock farmers to upscale into this digital environment, which will come at some cost?
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
Q Thank you. I have one question for the Environment Agency. At the moment, you have responsibility for monitoring water quality but not soil quality. As water, soil and air are the three primary tests of environmental benefit, should the Bill give you powers to do that? Or who will have responsibility for soil monitoring?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
This is for the Environment Agency, really. In your experience, does paying people to change behaviour work, or do you think there are better ways to do that? Also, what happens if payments get stopped by future GovernmentsQ ?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q What happens if those payments get stopped by future Governments? What would you envisage happening then?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
TwoQ quick questions, if I may; the first is to Professor Fox. You mentioned flood mitigation. The commercial forestry sector is a very important industry in this country. Do you see commercial forestry playing a part in flood mitigation?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q Thank you—very succinct. Ms Taylor, you are in charge of further schemes. We are way behind at the moment in tree planting in this country. Do you see a way within the Bill of devising a scheme to support the commercial forestry sector over the next 50 to 100 years?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Ms Taylor, in your views, you state that the Bill would be aQ
“starting point for the conversion of the agriculture sector to the one we would like to see.”
In no other industry is knowledge passed on from generation to generation more than in farming. Farmers know their land best. How do you feel that smaller upland and lowland farms will benefit from the Bill, and how will it encourage the next generation of young farmers?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Really, it is about how future generations of farmers will feel confident about their potential future on, perhaps, the family farm after the introduction of the Bill. What will it provide for smaller upland and lowland farmers?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q Does that mean more rewilding?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Q Mr Cross, as a farmer, do you have a view on this?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
This is a question to Mr Cross regarding electronic identification traceabilityQ , with which we are quite familiar in Scotland. ScotEID, which is based in my constituency, already covers cattle, sheep and pigs. The recent BSE case was very quickly closed down, and the cohorts were identified. It is testament to the Scottish authorities that they closed it down so quickly. The problem with such systems is that they must be robust, and the Government have not got a very good history of designing systems. Are you looking at existing commercial systems for EID traceability, which could be quickly implemented, rather than starting from the ground up?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q As a supplementary to that, this is all about public money for public goods. Is animal health arguably a public good? Not only would traceability be important, in terms of trade, but traceability can prevent the catastrophes we have had with foot and mouth and BSE in the past, and the effect that sanitary restrictions can have on population movement. What is your opinion? Should animal health be seen as a public good because it is so necessary and affects us all?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Before I revert to the Minister, are there are any more questions from the Back Benches? No.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to come back to a point that Professor Fox made earlier about regulation. You will be aware that the Government have commissioned Dame Glenys Stacey to do a comprehensive review of the regulatory baseline and the culture in which we carry out enforcement. We envisage that that will be something for future legislation.
On the specifics of the schemes we have now, is not the issue you raise covered by clause 3? It is explicit that, through regulations, the Secretary of State can set eligibility criteria for the new schemes, enforce compliance with the new schemes, make requirements about record-keeping, have the power to recover financial assistance and even impose monetary penalties and create offences. That is a pretty comprehensive set of enforcement provisions to sit alongside a new scheme.
I take your point, and the Government accept that we want to review the regulatory baseline and the culture. However, for the purpose of the schemes outlined in the Bill, do you not think the issue is covered by clause 3?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q But is it not your reading here that through this, the Secretary of State has the power to say, for instance, that an eligibility criterion would require you to be compliant with the existing legal baseline?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
There are no further questions. Thank you Professor Fox, Ms Taylor and Mr Cross for coming to join us and for your evidence, which is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much indeed.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Good morning and thank you for joining us. For the benefit of the written record, I would be grateful if you identified yourselves, starting with Mr Ward.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you very much. Ringing the changes, would you like to kick off this time, Dr Drew?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Welcome to you both. If this Bill is introduced in its current form, take me ahead 20 years. What will British growing, and in particular organic growing, look like?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q What specific improvements to the Bill would both of you like to see?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
For the benefit of our witnesses, I should explain that the Minister is not being discourteous. He has had to leave to present a Bill on the Floor of the House, but I am sure he will be back before the end of this session.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Mr Ward, I represent the Vale of Evesham, so many of the producers in my constituency are members of your association. We, of course, produce the best asparagus and tomatoes in the world—sorry, Sir Roger, I am going off topic there, but the legislation is hugely important for many of my constituents.Q
You have mentioned that overall you welcome the Bill, but you have both said that the devil is in the detail. What specific improvements would you like to see in terms of the relationships between Government and the producer organisations? Secondly, you talked about the supply chain and the imbalance between primary producers and the large distribution processes. What specifically would you like to see change? Improved data, information flow and transparency have been talked about, but how would that improve things?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q It is good to see the British Growers Association here, because yesterday, in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, which is also taking evidence on the Bill, we had representatives from the dairy sector, the red meat sector and the ornamental horticulture sector, which was slightly odd, because the answer to whether they should be covered by the Groceries Code Adjudicator was mostly, “No, we don’t care about that”—well, of course they do not, because they are not grocers. There was an obvious gap with you not there.
I have tabled an amendment on public health, which I hope that you will welcome. It talks about measures to increase the availability, affordability, diversity, quality and marketing of fruit and vegetables. It also talks about pesticide use and antimicrobial resistance—the overuse of antibiotics. Some environmental organisations have said that they do not support the public health goal. I wonder whether we could do more, other than putting it in as a public good, particularly around procurement. In France, for example, there is a rule that 50% of public procurement should be locally sourced or organic produce. Could we do more on that front in the Bill?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q It has been said that since anything can happen to food during processing, why reward it at the produce stage? That is what I am trying to get to grips with. Fruit and veg are incredibly healthy, but how do we ensure that they reach the consumer in a healthy form without being adulterated or turned into something with very little nutritional value?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q May I also ask about whole farm systems? I have an amendment that relates particularly to agro-ecological and organic farming, which I am sure the Soil Association would support. You mentioned the concern that the approach might be piecemeal, with people doing things round the edges. How important is it to support a whole farming system, as opposed to focusing on individual public goods?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q I declare an interest: I am a conventional farmer and an organic farmer, and I own fresh produce factories. I have been involved in farming for donkeys’ years.
Part 6 of the Bill is about fairness in the supply chain. Several retailers have moved to central direct buying, effectively reducing the role of contracted packers. That has been part of the problem with the oversupply of apples this year. The industry is already changing: instead of producer organisations having 12 months’ integrated supply, the supermarkets are now trying to do it themselves. How will the Bill rebalance that? If you do try to rebalance it, you must maintain the natural effect of the market—how else will you control supply? What does the Bill actually do to give real powers of fairness between the power of the supermarkets, where they are already squeezing out the existing supply chain?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q Just to follow up on that point, with the likes of Amazon and eBay, or maybe even some internet or app-based system we cannot see yet—I remember suggesting it years ago to supermarkets, and they were furious, because they owned retail sites and did not want to hear about it—you could actually just about bypass normal retail chains completely. Mr Ward, you spoke about the Asda-Sainsbury’s tie-up. That is inevitable, because they think there is a much bigger competitor coming down the road, is there not?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q Going back to what Kerry McCarthy was asking, do you believe that the production of a comprehensive food strategy could help inform any future regulations that will give effect to the Bill, in order to enable or encourage the production of sustainable and healthy food?
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
ClauseQ 1 allows for financial assistance to improve horticultural activities. What specific things would you like to see to support fruit and veg growers?
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
Q The existing EU fruit and veg producer organisation regime, while helpful to growers, has flaws and has led to legal disputes. What features would you like in the new scheme?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Q I am conscious that the immigration statement in the Chamber has overrun and the Minister has been detained. Ordinarily, I would draw the session to a conclusion immediately, but there is two-way traffic: the Committee has the opportunity to ask you questions, and you have very kindly come in to answer them; but it is also an opportunity for you to bend the Minister’s ear. If there is anything that either of you would like to place on the record, please do so.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
If you go out of here and kick yourselves and think, “Oh gosh, I wish I’d said that,” you can always write to the Committee.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Does Helen Browning want to comment on organic conversion? One of the big barriers to farmers getting into organic farming is the conversion period when the produce is not organic but they are restricted in the products they produce. Is it a good use of public funds to support people who wish to convert to organic farming?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q How self-sufficient are we in organic foodstuffs? I know there are some things we cannot produce in the UK.
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q As you said earlier, the devil is in the detail. There is very little detail in the Bill at all. Most of what will come out of the Bill will be in regulations, and there is very little written into it about consultation. Would you feel more comfortable about having more consultation written into the Bill so that you will know that, when the regulations are coming up, your concerns and those of other people involved in the industry will be taken into account?
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
Q Mr Ward, you have touched on public procurement, and you gave some examples of procurement in other existing EU countries. As we come out of the EU, do you think there is scope for this Bill to make provision for us to be much freer as to public bodies procuring locally? Should that be specified in the Bill?
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
Q Ms Browning, you might want to come back to procurement, but my question relates to your role in the Soil Association. You used the word “biodiversity” earlier. Do you think there is enough in the Bill to allow for R&D and greater understanding of soil composition? My sense is that we have much less understanding of the biology and chemistry of our soil than we do of many other areas of life. Does the Bill facilitate a greater understanding among farmers of what is going on in their land?
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
Q My question follows on nicely from your last point, because as you say, the Minister has emphasised the importance of soil health. Measures to promote it are covered by the purposes of clause 1(1)(c) —I think it is in the additional provisions. What sort of specific interventions do you think would best deliver improvements in soil health?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q I have two questions. First, for Mr Ward, with the difficulty in getting a seasonal workforce here nowadays, which we can expect more of in the future, does moving away from subsidising food production to supporting public goods make the production of fruit and vegetables more or less economic? What impact do you think that will have on overall volumes?
Secondly, for the Soil Association, I met with your associates in Edinburgh, and they suggested that part of the problem with food security is the lack of security of supply of things such as fertiliser, and that true food security depends on a supply chain. Is there anything in the Bill that suggests to you that food security issues are being addressed?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Could you repeat that last bit?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
A quick, final question from Chris Davies, and a quick answer, please.
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q The Scottish and Irish unions are coming in this afternoon, and we had the Welsh in two days ago. How important is this UK framework for implementing the Bill?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Do you agree, Ms Browning?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you very much indeed, Mr Ward and Ms Browning. We are indebted to you for the time and effort that you put into coming to see us.
(Afternoon)
Examination of Witnesses
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. For the benefit of the Official Report, would you be kind enough to identify yourselves, please?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
We are very grateful to you for joining us.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q 145 The premise behind the Bill and the future of direction of agriculture policy is to move away from arbitrary area-based subsidy payments to a system based on payment for public goods. What do you consider to be the main criteria or factors that we need to take into account as we design schemes under that principle, to make them successful?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Professor Millstone, you are nodding. Would you like to come in on that?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Going back to Professor Millstone’s point about markets, I will put a few propositions to you and then invite your views on them. Part 4 of the Bill obviously has a sweeping section on intervention in agricultural markets. The Secretary of State can declare a crisis in the market and act accordingly. That is largely borrowed from the existing EU regime. Our most stable areas of production, where we have very competitive prices and compete internationally, are often the unsubsidised sectors, such as pigs, poultry and horticulture. Finally, the single farm payment is explicitly decoupled from production at the moment, so you do not really have to be producing food in any kind of productive way to qualify for it. Beyond part 4, which is about intervention, what other things do you think we need in order to provide stable food prices?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Professor Millstone, you are advocating something similar to the deficiency payments that used to be in the 1947 Act. Do you think that in a modern incarnation of a new agriculture policy it is the role of the taxpayer to do that? Or should Government, as we do in the Bill, improve the transparency of market information so that you can get the development of futures markets or margin insurance, so that there is a viable, accessible product that farmers can access to insure their own prices?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Notwithstanding what you said about clause 1, Vicki, if you had a crystal ball, how else would you improve the BillQ ?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Professor Millstone, do you want add anything to that?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Coming back to the part 1 financial assistance powers, they largely focus on the environment, but clauses 2, 3 and 4 go on to mention productivity. Is there enough in the Bill not to cause tension between environmental payments and food production? How do we avoid that? How do we get the classic situation that we end up with a great deal of afforestation and a reduction in grassland, in particular in the upper parts of the countryQ ?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q Professor Marsden, you mentioned security and stability and an amendment to the Bill. How do you avoid that tension? How do we achieve that?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Do you think there is any clarity in the Bill on what the mechanism could and should be? Are the existing institutions the right institutions to do this, or should we be inventing new institutions?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
We have had various farming organisations in front of us who have criticised the Bill for not having enough about agriculture. Looking at your biogs—forgive me for saying this—you seem to have a bias, as academics, Q towards the environment. Is it fair of the farming organisations to criticise the Bill for not having enough about agriculture? If not, why is that not fair criticism?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q Is it agriculture plus environment, or environment plus agriculture? Which way would you put that?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
I am going by your biog.
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q I would be cautious about who was on the judging panel, where the bar was being set, and who was setting it. Out of interest, would anybody else on the panel like to answer? Sorry, Sir Roger, I am taking your job.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
No, take over.
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
ThisQ is a skeleton Bill, and I am getting a very strong impression that an awful lot of people are reading into the Bill what they would like to see, without it actually being there. You have talked a lot about the sustainable production of healthy food; however, the most operable parts of the Bill are clauses 1(1) and 1(2), and there is no mention at all of the production of food in either. Because this is an enabling Bill, it says
“The Secretary of State may give financial assistance”,
so we do not know whether he will decide to give financial assistance to any or all of these things, but we do know that it does not say that he may give any financial assistance to the production of healthy food in a sustainable way. Is that something that you would like to see in the Bill?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
It has been suggested to me that the switch from support for food production to support for public goods might make subsidies easier to claim for landowners who manage things such as grouse moors and shooting estates, rather than for farmers with small plots of land. Would you consider that an environmental gain, and, in that case, would the reductions in food production be worth itQ ?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Should some sort of distinctions be placed in the Bill specifying that? I did not quite hear what you said—are you saying that that would limit the Bill too much?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I will be brief, Sir Roger, because you want to keep us to time. Part 2 of the Bill creates the power—quite a large one—to modify and sort out existing schemes, to remove some of the bureaucracy, to simplify them and to sort out mapping. If you had one or two—perhaps this is for Mr Baldock because you have had some experience of them—what would you do to clean up and sort out the existing BPS?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
There is a lot of nodding going on, but Hansard cannot report nods, so I have to place them on the record for you. I am afraid we are out of time. Professor Millstone, David Baldock, Vicki Hird and Professor Marsden, thank you very much indeed for joining us. We are most grateful to you.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
We will now take evidence from Unite and the Landworkers’ Alliance. We have until 3.15 pm, so slightly under half an hour, I am afraid. Will you introduce yourselves for the record, please?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q You heard the previous panel. Is the Bill an opportunity or something of a threat for the people you represent?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q So where do you see opportunities to improve the Bill?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Agri-ecology and other whole-system disciplines such as agroforestry would be covered and empowered under clause 1. We are considering that, but I would be interested in your views on the key barriers to your members’ setting up and what type of support would be most useful.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q What about access to holdings—access to land?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Could you expand on that? We have said before that we are looking at refreshing the county farm model. What would you like to see?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q What concerns do you have about the possibility of standards being lowered for imported food? Witnesses have referred to that already quite a lot. Mr Hamer, your website makes it clear that there is a real shortage in the supply of domestic produce, and that, if new recommendations to eat more fruit and veg were actually followed, current production could not keep up. Would cheap imports fill that gap?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
I have a great deal of sympathy with the argument on low pay in the farming sector—thousands of low-paid people work in my constituency—and I am trying to understand the driver behind it. I do not necessarily see exploitative farmers trying to take advantage of workers. Is it not the value chain? Do we need to be realistic and expect higher retail prices? Are the British public too used to low prices for farming produce? LookingQ at some of the other aspects of the Bill relating to the value chain, can we change the balance of power away from the far end—the retailers and distributors—and give a little bit more power to the suppliers? Is that not the answer?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
I should say that I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on agro-ecology and I tabled the amendment on moving to a more agro-ecological approach that Ed mentioned.Q
The briefing from the Landworkers Alliance was very useful, particularly the paragraph stating what France has done to move towards a more agro-ecological approach, but I want to ask about the economics. I think agro-ecology is sometimes perceived as being just about caring about the environment, and not about improving farming productivity. Could you say something about the fact that there may be fewer inputs? We heard some evidence—I cannot remember if it was in this Committee or in the EFRA Committee, which is also looking at the Bill—about how taking some of the land out of production and using it to increase biodiversity, through pollinators and that sort of thing, can increase food yields. Is that just nice to have or could it make farming more productive?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Ed, you talked about the potential through de-linking and smaller holdings. I wonder what potential there is for reducing supply chains with existing farmers. I ask that from the rural perspective of upland and lowland farmers, such as those I represent in Cumbria, as well as isolated communities. What potential is there for that in the Bill? What infrastructure would be required to facilitate thatQ ?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
You referred to how we can essentially shorten supply chains, and your answer seemed to be focused on de-linking opportunities. I am keen to understand the opportunities for existing farms—particularly family farms—in upland and lowland areas.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q My farming grandad is in my ear saying, “It used to be like that.” We moved away from that because of Government policies. Do you feel that the Bill brings a new opportunity to return to the past, in some ways?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Any further observations? In that case, thank you very much indeed, Ms Holland and Mr Hamer, for taking the trouble to come here. It was good to see you.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
We are now joined by NFU Scotland, the Ulster Farmers Union, Quality Meat Scotland and the Scottish Government. We have until no later than 4.30 pm. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. Would you identify yourselves for the sake of the record?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The Bill sets out a clear plan for England, predominantly, and for how we design schemes. Schedule 3 deals with Wales, and schedule 4 sets out a plan for Northern Ireland. Mr Burgess, will you tell us what the plan is for Scotland?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Just to be clear, we are at the stage in Committee of thinking about whether Scotland wants us to reserve an additional schedule to do some of that work or, as Northern Ireland has chosen to, not to change anything but to retain the current scheme for a period of time. Is it your position, though, that the Scottish Parliament will legislate and you do not want any inclusion in the Bill?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Does anybody else from Scotland wish to comment?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I have to be careful now not to invite disagreement from within the panel.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Is it the view of NFU Scotland, then, that ideally you would have a schedule similar to what Wales has or what Northern Ireland has?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Obviously, we are at the Committee stage of the Bill, and the purpose of this session is to consider what, if any, amendments we should make. It would be quite a substantive amendment to add a whole new schedule to cover Scotland, but that offer remains open. I suppose, however, that it is open only for a period of time before the Bill moves on and we pass that point. Perhaps this is a question for Mr Burgess again, but is there a timescale in which you would definitely make the decision about whether you wanted to retain the option to use a schedule, or have you already passed that point and resolved to draft your own legislation?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Mr Aston, in the absence of an Administration in Northern Ireland, DAERA took the view that it wanted a slimmed-down or abridged version of the powers, but that it definitely wanted the power to be able to strip out some of the bureaucracy and remove some of the unnecessary burdens in the current single farm payment scheme. Are you content with the approach that it has adopted? Does it do all the things you would like?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Q I am sorry, Mr Ferguson, but some of us are of a certain age. Could you speak up a bit?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q What would your priorities be to de-bureaucratise the current scheme, the single farm payment scheme, which under the powers you have, you would be able to do from 2021?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Q Mr Aston, you courteously deferred to your president. Is there anything you would like to add?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Does it really matter if we have four different types of agriculture in the United Kingdom? Clearly, there will be an overarching structure, but from what you are saying, you all have slightly different ways of doing things. Is that likely to develop as the Bill goes through, or is it more centralised than some of us see it as?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Q Mr Clarke, from the point of view of your organisation, do you have a different perspective on this?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Dr Drew, I know you have to leave, but if you have any further questions, please ask them.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q On Northern Ireland specifically, you have to take account of what happens south of the border. We should not get into Brexit, but to what extent does this Agriculture Bill have to fit with what is happening south of the border? You obviously have people who farm both sides of the border anyway, so the support system cannot be radically different from that in the Republic, can it?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q In your submission, NFU Scotland said that the inclusion of a schedule bespoke for Scotland’s agricultural policy needs is important. Would a schedule in any way limit Scottish policy?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q Mr Burgess, the same question: would a Scottish schedule in this Bill, such as Northern Ireland and Wales have, limit the Scottish Government in having its own agricultural policy?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q On that point, Mr Burgess, would this not provide the opportunity? As the Scottish NFU said, the engine is running on this one, and the two other nations have decided to be involved in it. Would you say, if there was a Scottish schedule that would give certainty to Scottish farmers about payment in the future, that the Scottish schedule would limit Scottish policy? Would it limit the Scottish Government in designing their own agriculture policy, which has been devolved for quite some time?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q Would it limit the Scottish Government in setting their own policy?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q I have a question for Mr Clarke: would you welcome an amendment to the Bill to deal with the meat levy with regard to Scotland?
Martin Whitfield (Labour, East Lothian)
Just to pursue that point regarding the red meat levy, it is my understanding that to make the amendments you need a piece of primary legislation. Has there been any primary legislation since, shall we say, 2006? That was not the start of the challenges with the levy, but certainly problems date from then. Has there been any opportunity to change it until the Bill that is before the CommitteeQ ?
Martin Whitfield (Labour, East Lothian)
Q One more point to you, Mr Hall. Do you have any concerns about the fact that the Bill discusses the environment very heavily? Would you like to see it scope wider and talk about farms and food, and give equal emphasis to all?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q We have heard from other farming groups that the Agriculture Bill does not contain enough agriculture. Do you agree, or do you think that there is enough agriculture in it relative to environment?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Mr Hall, I am not entirely clear why you think that we could not alter the CAP regime in Scotland. I am aware—I am sure that Mr Burgess will back me up on this—that if there is no Scotland schedule in the Bill when it is enacted, the Scottish Government will still be able to make agricultural support payments. I think that is right, is it not, Mr Burgess?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q It was worth making that clear, for farmers who might be concerned about that. Perhaps you can elaborate a little, Mr Hall. Also, you told us how understandable you think that the Scottish Government’s reservations are about the Bill. Would you therefore encourage the Ministers in charge of it to accept the Scottish Government’s amendments in good faith and to allow the transfer of those powers to Holyrood?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Your colleagues were certainly clear that it should be agreed and not imposed—inside the common frameworks, for instance.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Mr Burgess, perhaps you could shed a little light on the funding aspect of this matter that we have just been discussing.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q I have one last very quick question. Mr Clarke, I was delighted to hear your comments about Quality Meat Scotland, or QMS. As you know, the Scottish Government have been pursuing that for a long time and I hope—I have certainly tabled an amendment to this Bill and I am aware that other Members have as well—that something actually gets sorted there.
I wanted to ask you about protected geographical indications, or PGIs, and how damaging they could be, particularly to the meat sector, and to what extent. I wonder whether you could give us some information on that.
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q I represent a constituency right on the border of England and Wales, and many of my farmers have land on both sides of the border. Currently, they have to abide by what one could say are two slightly different regimes. Mr Hall, regarding the farmers that you represent on the Scottish side of the border that also have land in England, so that they farm both sides, do you think the Scottish Government’s approach to this Bill has given them extra concern and worry?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to come back to part 7 and the WTO clause, which I know you are concerned about—I think unnecessarily so, for reasons I will explain. Mr Burgess, who is currently responsible for ensuring that we abide by WTO rules and obligations, and who is responsible for reporting to the WTO to demonstrate that?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The reality is that the UK co-ordinating body, which marshals the various paying agencies in the UK, is responsible for marshalling the data to the EU. The EU then reports to the WTO. The simple reason for that is that the EU holds the WTO schedule on aggregate measurement of support. So the EU holds the schedule and does the reporting, and it requires that we report to it the information that enables it to demonstrate compliance. When we leave the EU, there will be a UK schedule and a UK AMS. All that clause 26 does is make provision for the Secretary of State to do what the EU currently does: to report and demonstrate compliance.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q But you understand that the EU has a single AMS allocation, and through that it must facilitate schemes in 28 member states. Therefore, the EU can limit the amount of market-distorting support payments that any member state makes. If France were to bust the bank, as it were, and single-handedly try to spend all of that, the EU would forbid that from happening—it has powers to ensure that it complies with the schedule. While it is devolved, do you not accept that the UK Government, which will hold the schedule responsible for ensuring that we stay in our AMS envelope, have to be able to set some parameters, otherwise there is no way of being able to deliver that compliance?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Subsection 2(b) states that we can establish
“a process for the resolution of disputes between the appropriate authorities”.
There is a dispute resolution process in an instance where Scotland might say, “We want to spend even more on market-distorting support and we think it is unfair that you have constrained us from doing that.” There is a dispute resolution process.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I do not think we will reach a conclusion on that this afternoon.
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
Mr Burgess, you are very welcome. You are in an invidious position, if I may say so, in coming to this Committee, and I am very pleased that you have. In the light of what you just heard from Mr Hall, what confidence can the Committee and Scottish farmers, particularly those whose farms cross the border, have given the lack of engagement by the Scottish Government? Absent what you just told us about the letter, which we get to see in your proposed amendment, what confidence can the Committee and farmers have that the Scottish Government will respond to the call from its farmers to have common standards with the rest of the UKQ ?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q In one of the pieces of evidence we heard today, Jack Ward of the British Growers Association said it would be a nightmare if we had four producer organisation schemes. That is not about cross-border farming or farms; that is about strawberry growers in Angus working with strawberry growers in Kent; and equally, potato growers in north-east Scotland operating with potato growers in Lincolnshire. We have spoken about common frameworks, but surely, for the sake of the unitary market of the UK, we must have an absolute, concrete commitment that we will not have market altering divergence. Can you foresee a situation in which we had four producer organisations?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q Do you perceive a risk of divergence? Is that not fundamentally the point, whether it is on the frameworks or on the producer organisations?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Mr Clarke, the Government are under pressure from the other Mr Clark around the table, my hon. Friend the Member for Gordon, and from my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, to give consideration to an amendment that would enable some transfers of levy payments between levy bodies, but only with the agreement of the relevant Governments or of the Secretary of State and the Scottish and Welsh Ministers. It is a bit problematic in the absence of a legislative consent motion, because it would explicitly affect something that Scottish Ministers could do. If that amendment were to get some support, should the Scottish Government bank that advantage and grant the LCM on the Bill?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q I have a question about Northern Ireland for Mr Ferguson and Mr Aston. There is a geographical conundrum in your market, given that some production chains straddle what may be a UK border with the EU. What kind of support are farmers in Northern Ireland likely to require after Brexit? What impact might the different possible outcomes have?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Is there any other support you might be looking for?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you very much. Mr Hall, Mr Clarke, Mr Burgess, Mr Ferguson and Mr Aston, you have come a very long way for a relatively short time, but I hope you feel it has been time well spent. I am certain that it has been of value to the Committee. We are indebted to you. Thank you very much.