Agriculture Bill
Public Bill Committee, 23 October 2018.
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points to make. Please switch electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during the sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and then a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. In view of the limited time available, I hope that we can take those matters without too much debate. I call the Minister to move the programme motion, which the programming sub-committee agreed yesterday.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
I beg to move,
That—
1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 23 October) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 23 October;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 25 October;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 30 October;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 1 November;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 13 November;
(f) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 15 November; and
(g) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 20 November;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
TABLE
Date
Time
Witness
Tuesday 23 October
Until no later
than 10.55 am
Nature Friendly Farming Network;
National Trust;
RSPB;
Gilles Deprez
Tuesday 23 October
Until no later
than 11.25 am
Farmwel;
RSPCA;
British Veterinary Association
Tuesday 23 October
Until no later
than 2.30 pm
NFU;
National Federation of Young Farmers’ Clubs
Tuesday 23 October
Until no later
than 3.00 pm
Country Land and Business
Association;
Tenant Farmers Association
Tuesday 23 October
Until no later
than 3.30 pm
Food Standards Agency;
Food and Drink Federation;
Groceries Code Adjudicator
Tuesday 23 October
Until no later
than 5.00 pm
National Farmers’ Union Cymru;
Farmers’ Union of Wales
Thursday 25 October
Until no later
than 12.15 pm
Traceability Design User Group;
Environment Agency;
Rural Payments Agency
Thursday 25 October
Until no later
than 1.00 pm
British Growers Association;
Soil Association
Thursday 25 October
Until no later
than 2.45 pm
Professor Erik Millstone, Professor of Science Policy, University of Sussex;
David Baldick, Senior Research
Fellow, Institute of European
Environmental Policy;
Vicky Hird, Sustain;
Professor Terry Marsden, Professor of Environmental Policy and Planning, University of Cardiff
Thursday 25 October
Until no later
than 3.15 pm
Unite;
The Landworkers’ Alliance
(3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 22; Schedule 1; Clause 23; Schedule 2; Clause 24 to 27; Schedule 3; Clause 28; Schedule 4; Clauses 29 to 31; Schedule 5; Clauses 32 to 36; new Clauses; new Schedules; and remaining proceedings on the Bill; and
(4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 20 November.
First, may I record our thanks to the Clerk who has attempted, at very short notice, to add some witnesses at the request of the Opposition? I should add that the National Federation of Young Farmers’ Clubs, the Food and Drink Federation and the Groceries Code Adjudicator have said that they are unable to make it.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
I would like to make a point to the Minister about this. Regarding the witnesses, I was very disappointed to see that the National Farmers Union, Scotland had not been called in to give evidence. Given that the Bill is the subject of some dispute between the UK and Scottish Governments, it would have been appropriate at least to have Scottish Government officials down to explain some of the finer points of that.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
The Scottish Government have not yet signalled that they wish to be part of the Bill. Indeed, our understanding is that they intend to pass their own Bill, which is why it was decided at the time that this Bill would not apply to Scotland. We now have a list of witnesses and a programme motion for the evidence sessions.
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
It would perhaps have been a good idea to have representatives from the devolved Administrations, given that the Bill will inevitably have an effect on each of the industries in turn.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Does that mean, Chair, that when Scotland produces its Bill it will ask for evidence from English farming organisations? Is that the logic of what is proposed?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
The point is that elements of the Bill affect devolved legislation and competencies, so it is appropriate that at least Scottish Government officials should be allowed to put those points across to us. As MPs, surely we want to get the full picture. The Bill is the subject of some dispute between the two Governments, so surely it is appropriate that we hear about that.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
I do not really have anything further to add. The Bill is predominantly for English farmers and there is a schedule for Welsh farmers as well. There is a more limited schedule for Northern Irish farmers because the Northern Ireland Administration asked for a minimalist addition to enable them to continue to make payments.
As the Scottish Government have been clear that they do not intend, as things stand, to invite or ask us to add a schedule on their behalf, we have agreed the set of witnesses that we have. I have nothing further to add.
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Examination of Witnesses
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
I welcome witnesses to the first public sitting of the Bill. Before we start, do any Members want to make declarations of interest for the record?
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
I draw the Committee’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. In addition, I am a member and tenant of the National Trust and a member of the CLA, the National Farmers Union, the Countryside Alliance and the Woodland Trust, as well as of the Shropshire Wildlife Trust and the Small Woods Association. The Forestry Commission has a long-term tenancy of some woodland for which I have beneficial ownership.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Similarly, I draw the Committee’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, particularly my membership of the Country Land and Business Association and the National Farmers Union. I have a family farm in North Yorkshire of 250 acres, which we have farmed since 1850. We are currently engaged in a high-level environmental scheme on that farm.
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Can I declare my interests? I am a farmer in receipt of the single farm payment. I am a member of NFU Scotland and an organic producer.
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
I now ask the witnesses to state their names and the organisations they represent for the record.
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. We have until 10.55 am for this session.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
I welcome our guests. May I start with a general question—the most important one? What do you welcome in the Bill and in which areas do you think the Bill needs to be improved?Q
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
I ask the witnesses to speak up, because the acoustics are not the best.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q I have one further question that follows up on that. Is it clear how the idea of public moneys for public goods is going to work in practice?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The premise behind the Bill is that the long-term end stage should be that we move away from a system of arbitrary area-based subsidy payments to something where we first correct the causes of low profitability in farming, through things such as improvement in the way in which the supply chain operates, grants to invest in new technology, research and development, supporting structural change where necessary, but also properly rewarding farmers for the work they do for the environment. That is not necessarily on an income-forgone principle but on something that is genuinely rewarding that does not begrudge them making a margin in the way that the current pillar two schemes do.
I would like to know your views on whether you believe that is deliverable, if we rewarded the environmental outcomes properly to ensure that we had a viable model. What would that look like? What is your view on natural capital principles, in terms of pricing those options? Are there other things that you would like to do? Or do you believe that income forgone should be the basis on which we operate payments in future?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q My second question is linked to that. It is about tenant farmers, and their ability to access the scheme. Obviously this is an agriculture Bill. Although the first clause is predominantly about payment for public goods in the environmental sense, the objective behind the Bill is to encourage more sustainable farming. We want to ensure that tenant farmers who may have shorter tenancies are able to access that.
I wondered what your thoughts were about the design of that. Mr Begg, obviously at the National Trust you are a big landlord. I know, Mr Lines, that you run schemes now on tenanted land. Mr Deprez, you are a very large agri business that rents lots of land. I wondered whether you had thoughts on how the schemes should be constructed to ensure that tenant farmers can access them.
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
I have a long list of Members who want to ask questions. Could I ask that both questions and replies are pithy, so we can get as many people in as possible?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
I have a couple of questions. They are a little complicated but I will try and make them brief. It is difficult to get your head round the economics of it when we do not know how each public good will be rewarded. I know some people have expressed concern that some farmers might cherry-pick one or two of the public goods and do that around the margins of their land, but compensate for the loss of direct payment by becoming more intense and more industrialised—a bit like what happened in New Zealand, where they did not have the compensatory public goods regime. What are your thoughts on that? How would the economics of that work out for farmers and will most of them be persuaded to go down the public goods route and do more on that frontQ ?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
At the moment, it is individual public goods. There is nothing that deals with whole farm systems, such as organic, pasture-led livestock. Do you think that should be in the Bill?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
What was the name of the farm?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q My second question is whether the Bill is strong enough or gives enough clarity on the regulatory baseline. Public goods should be rewarding going above and beyond what is legally required, but we will lose the cross-compliance element of CAP. How do we ensure that farmers are rewarded for doing the extra things and also enforce the people required to do the standard things, such as ensuring the water supply is not being polluted or whatever? This is your baby, Mr Lancaster, isn’t it?
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
Before I bring in Simon Hoare, we have eight Members who still want to ask questions, so again, can we keep the questions short? I also respectfully ask the witnesses to keep their replies short and concise. That would be great.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
WhatQ is the principal purpose of agriculture?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q Principal purpose.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
No—daffodil bulbs are poisonous if you eat them.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Don’t!
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q I do not know whether you have had the chance to read the report on the Bill by the House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, but it is pretty scathing. It describes it as a skeleton Bill and refers extensively to its lack of detail. It states:
“The central purpose of the Agriculture Bill is to provide a framework that confers on Ministers extensive powers…with correspondingly few duties…exercisable indefinitely and without sunset clauses. They include unlimited monetary penalties…the ability to create criminal offences punishable by up to two years’ imprisonment”.
What areas of your organisation are you most concerned about, in view of the extensive powers that Ministers will have under the Bill and the lack of detail that the report criticises so heavily?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q Can you give us some examples?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q ADAS produced a report in 2016 that stated that a
“‘Public Money for Public Goods’ approach…would be a radical change and one that would certainly need to be tested for efficacy before adoption.”
Do you agree that the seven-year transition will be adequate for testing? We have heard from Mr Lines that people already have good practices. Is seven years enough time to activate a policy, considering how long it takes to grow hedges, trees and cover? Or will we have to come up with policies like those that you are already using, Mr Lines, on your farm? Patrick Begg, you mentioned the public good.
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q This is a question for Mr Lines. I am a practising farmer myself. There have been EU environmental policies that have not worked: the three-crop rule ended up being quite damaging, and even set-aside created an enormous weed bank. Are you satisfied that we will avoid those mistakes?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Thank you.
Jenny Chapman (Labour, Darlington)
For better or worse, you have operated within a framework guided by the European Union for as long as probably all of you have been in the business. You have talked about mutual recognition and standards. Do you think the Bill could be doing more about not just undercutting within the UK, which you have talked about, and within different nations of the UK, should they choose to take different paths on some issues, but also about undercutting from overseas imports in the future? How significant a risk do you see that as being, and do you think this Bill is doing anything that could help relieve that anxiety?Q
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Talking of public goods, we have been talking almost exclusively so far about environmental enhancement, but there is one public good that many members of the public would like to see: better public access. That can of course produce conflict, particularly with some of the environmental objectives. Indeed, one of the best bird habitats that I have seen was the oil refinery at Immingham, where not only were there lots of things for the birds to perch on, but the public—and their dogs in particular—were excluded. Do you think we can get the balance right? Do you think public access should be part of this, or if we are to encourage ground-nesting birds such as curlews, do we need to ensure that we do not have as much public access as some would perhaps wish?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q Some organisations have questioned the legality under World Trade Organisation rules of schemes that would pay for the delivery of public goods, as opposed to those that compensate farmers or other land managers for costs incurred and income forgone. Do you recognise those concerns regarding, I think, annexe 2 of the agreement on agriculture? Quite simply, should we also hold those concerns?
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
We have 10 minutes left, and three more Members want to ask questions. Unless anybody really wants to say something, we will move on.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
I will target this question particularly at you, Mr Lancaster, because you have mentioned this area several times. Clauses 12 to 16 of the Bill focus on data protection and data sharing, with a view to increasing transparency in the agri-food supply chain. In practical terms, how will that transparency help, and how can we avoid making the data collection too burdensome on, for example, farmersQ ?
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
Q Mr Begg, as one of the largest landowners in the country, do you think that the proposals over de-linking, which might allow residual payment over the transition period to be paid up front to facilitate a retirement or some such, are in practice likely to be applied by any of your tenants, and what does it leave for the continuing tenant if there is no transition funding available for subsequent years?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
I will direct my question to Mr Begg and Mr Lancaster, if I may. Mr Begg, in your submission, you have mentioned dovetailing food production and land management. Looking from the arable fields to the livestock producers on your estates, do you feel that the Bill will reduce livestock production in this country? In 10 years’ time, when we reach the end of the transition period, do you expect to see less livestock in this country, or moreQ ?
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted to the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I would like to thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
We will now hear evidence from Farmwel, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the British Veterinarian Association. The Committee is most grateful to you all, particularly the BVA, which has agreed to offer a witness at very short notice. For this session we have until 11.25 am. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Do you think that the Bill satisfactorily addresses either animal welfare or animal health issues?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q The premise behind the Bill is that, as you said, animal welfare is a public good, just like environmental outcomes. That is quite a radical, new thing for the Bill to state explicitly. Just as we have environmental stewardship schemes now, we intend to design schemes that could support higher standards of animal welfare for farmers that go above and beyond a regulatory base. What is your view on the design of such schemes, given that this is quite new? Some countries have tried it. Should we emphasise investment in capital to get new housing that is more animal welfare-friendly? Should we incentivise people to join holistic higher welfare schemes? Should we pay farmers for delivering results, such as pigs arriving with intact curly tails at abattoirs? What is your sense of the balance between those, and what type of interventions do you think we ought to consider?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Briefly, because I know we are tight on time, our understanding of farm animal welfare has developed somewhat over the past 15 years or so from the traditional five freedoms—freedom from hunger, pain, and so on—to much more of a notion of a life worth living and animal wellbeing. Do you share that view, and what are the implications for the types of schemes we should be incentivising, versus the types of approaches we should take to a regulatory baseline?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q A lot of doubt has been expressed around the Government’s commitment to the maintenance, or indeed the improvement, of animal welfare standards in the face of future difficult trade deals. What concerns do you have about that? What commitments might you might like to see placed in the Bill?
Jenny Chapman (Labour, Darlington)
Q I note what you say about the positive comments from DEFRA on the animal welfare that we have at the moment, but the Bill needs to be future-proof, and not all future DEFRA Ministers might be as cute and cuddly as the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth. You talked about a level playing field with the European Union. We need to make sure that we maintain at least that. I am told that we have probably the best animal welfare standards in the world. How can we make sure that the Bill stands the test of time and that we maintain that position? Some people argue that we ought to be almost pegging our standards to those of the EU so that we do not fall behind, and future Governments might experience pressure in the light of trade deals that might come in future years.
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
Q I know that we are almost out of time, but I have one more question. The Government are looking to simplify some aspects of inspection regimes and so on through the Bill. In the areas that you are responsible for in animal welfare, do you have any recommendations that are not already in the Bill for improving but simplifying things?
Phil Wilson (Labour, Sedgefield)
Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allocated for the Committee to ask questions. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
(Afternoon)
Examination of Witness
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We will now hear oral evidence from the National Farmers Union. Will you identify yourself for the record?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you for taking the trouble to join us. We have until 2.30 pm for this line of questioning. I am sorry we are running slightly late, but there were some domestic issues that had to be discussed. The first question is from the Minister.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q 25 Thank you, Mr Clark. Do you agree with the central premise of the Bill, which is that the end state should be that we phase out direct area subsidy payments, and instead support agriculture in a different way, helping it to invest in productivity and deliver environmental outcomes and other public benefits?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q So you support the power to extend the transition during the transition.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q You have talked about food security being an objective of policy. What do you deem to be the correct level of self-sufficiency?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally on this point, do you think the fact that sectors such as poultry, pigs and soft fruit—the ones that have traditionally received no support—are the ones in which we are most self-sufficient slightly undermines the argument that direct payments of one sort or another are essential to deliver food self-sufficiency?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Finally—I know we are short of time—part 2 of the Bill gives the Government powers to simplify and improve the legacy basic payment scheme system. What would your organisation most like to see changed during that transition period?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Very quickly, what other worries have you got about this BillQ ?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Just a very quick rejoinder. If the Bill goes through unamended, what type of farmers are most at risk from the changes?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
In this morning’s evidence session, we had two farmers from different parts of the country, representing different types of farms. One was from Cambridgeshire, where the fields have been amalgamated and production is very intensive, and the other was from the south-west, and he said, for example, that the field margins around hedges discriminated against him because he has small fields. On my farm, I have very small fields, compared with my next-door neighbour, and I always feel that we are being picked on.Q
As we go forward, how can we manage to have a system that works for the farmers who have intensified their farms and are going to green them up while not being unfair to the ones who are already very green? How do we reward progress and, at the same time, reward the people who have always been doing the right thing?
Martin Whitfield (Labour, East Lothian)
This a very straightforward question, but I am not sure you are the person to comment on it. Do you think in this primary legislation an opportunity could be taken to resolve the red meat levy discrepancy between Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and EnglandQ ?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
World Trade Organisation rules have come up as a potential concern—that could constrain payments such as less favoured areas or coupled support. It has been said that the Secretary of State could potentially limit devolved Administrations or even England. In earlier evidence, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds saidQ that WTO concerns were a red herring. Is it a concern you share, considering that we have an aggregate measure of support in the amber box? Are you concerned about the WTO being an issue?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q To follow up, as the amber box is as much as £3 billion, it would be highly unlikely unless an entire payment were to go into the amber part of the WTO, where that could be a concern. It is hypothetical as opposed to realistically going to arise, isn’t it?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q I note your contention that there is not enough focus on food production in the Bill. Would you agree with me that there is also not enough focus on the delivery of safe and healthy food? Would you support a duty on the Secretary of State to support the development of local supply chains and other measures in order to ensure delivery of safe and healthy food?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
You mentioned earlier that livestock and lowland farms were identified as being particularly at risk. Given that they are already on fairly poor land—they are often coastal farms—does the Bill allow any mitigation to support those farms, and if not, what does the NFU recommendQ ?
Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)
Do you think the categories of extraordinary measures that can be introduced in the event of market failure or disease having a particular impact on certain sectors of agriculture are sufficient if the country, as a result of the introduction of these new schemes, loses its position on food security and imports take over a much higher proportion of the food consumed in this countryQ ?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Everyone agrees that certainty on how and where to invest, and so that people can lend money to farmers and the agricultural sector for investment, needs to be safeguarded as much as possible in the Bill. To put it another way, that is Q something on which the major political parties can coalesce and which will not be subject to tinkering every six minutes or every change of Parliament, and so on. What is your hunch? Is there enough in this Bill? Is it robust enough to give the agricultural sector—those who wish to invest in the staff working within it or to lend to it—the option of doing so in the confidence that there will be a UK agricultural sector 20, 30, 40 or 50 years hence?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Sir Roger, may I clarify something?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Briefly, please.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q Just as, for example, we have that welcome figure of 0.7% of GDP for international development, would you be happier if there were, or are you looking to have, some sort of guaranteed ring-fencing or envelope of money—although how the envelope is spent is possibly subject to change—so that you know full well there is money set aside by the bean counters in the Treasury and agriculture has not been forgotten, particularly in difficult spending rounds?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you. A final question from Deidre Brock.
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
On theQ points you were making earlier regarding the free movement of goods and produce around the UK and ensuring that that is not hindered, is it not so that in some cases there are already quite significant divergences of approach in regulations in the four countries of the UK?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q In regard to the point you made earlier about the free movement of goods and produce around the UK and that not being hindered, is it not the case that there are already quite significant divergences of approach in regulations in the four countries of the UK?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
I note you used the word “agreed”, not “impose”.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you. I am afraid we must draw this session to a close. I apologise to those colleagues who did not get called. I have made a note and will try to give you priority next time round. [Interruption.] No, I am sorry.
Mr Clark, thank you very much indeed for taking the trouble to come. The Committee is indebted to you for answering the questions.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
On a point of order, Sir Roger. This is an Agriculture Bill; we had 24 minutes with the National Farmers Union, and we had 90 minutes this morning from our first four witnesses. This is not a criticism of our earlier witnesses. As we are seeing additional witnesses from the devolved nations with regards to the NFU, is it possible for our previous witness to submit further written evidence to us, or would he come back? As it is the Agriculture Bill, it is a little out of kilter to have only 24 minutes from the senior policy man at the NFU.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I am afraid, Mr Hoare, that these sessions are always a bit “beat the clock”, but it is open to Mr Clark to submit further written evidence, and he indicated that he might wish to do so. I am sure the Committee would welcome it if he chose to do so.
Examination of witnesses
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Good afternoon. We are slightly up against the clock, as we have half an hour and there are two of you, whereas there was only one of Mr Clark, and there may well be a Division at three o’clock. For the record, would you introduce yourselves?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
We start on the same basis. Minister, do you wish to open?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q 43 We have both landlords and tenants being represented on this panel. One of the key things we want to ensure in the new Bill is that tenant farmers can access these schemes. How do you think that can best be delivered?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you, Mr Dunn. Do you wish to add to that, Mr Price?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
That is it for now.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q 44 Will the Bill bring forward younger farmers, and if we have that as a central point—given the farming community’s present average age—how could it be further improved to bring forward even more younger farmers?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q 45 Will rents decrease? Is that likely to encourage people to take up more land?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Following on that theme, the issue of diversity in British farming is key, because today we will have had 14 people give evidence and all of them have been middle-aged, white men. The average age of a British farmer is now 59, and only 3% of farmers are under the age of 35. What more can we do to make farming a far more attractive proposition to a younger and more diverse populationQ 46 ?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you, Mr Dunn. I must remember that my job is form filling and not activity.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q 47 (Bristol East) (Lab): Can I turn to rents and economics? You said that at the moment a landowner would be charging £98, or whatever the going market rate is, for the land, but they are also getting direct payments on top of that. Is that right, or would that offset the rent payment?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q 48 Yes, but they may be required to pass it on, and we heard evidence this morning that quite a few have to pass it on—
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q 49 My question was this: if the landowner is not then getting those direct payments indirectly, will it still be economically viable for them to rent out the land for farming, or will we find landowners choosing to go into other areas, for example tourism, quad biking and whatever it is they do? Or will they just require more money from the tenant farmers, but the tenant farmers will not be getting any more money, because they will not be getting the direct payments?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q 50 Presumably, if there is less land available for farmers, that will then push up rent prices?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q 51 (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): We heard from our previous witness that there is not enough agriculture in the Agriculture Bill. Would you both agree with that and, if so, what would your organisations like to see in this Bill that is not already there?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q 52 If a Minister may interpret this set of rules in one way, how concerned are you that, in the devolved nations, there will be different processes going on right around the country?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q 53 Included in clause 7 of the Bill is a provision to allow de-linking of the payments. The example I was given was where a tenant farmer who wishes to retire could take three years’ worth of payments, which, together with his live and deadstock sale, would allow him perhaps to clear his overdraft and retire. However, if he hands that tenancy back to the landlord, he is left with land that will not attract any payments for two or three years and the difficulty of attracting another tenant. How would that work in practice?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
We have already heard that a major element of the rent that is paid relates to the amount of direct payments that the tenant—
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q I can understand that a tenant retiring would not necessarily be able to afford to buy a house out of the proceeds, but if he was on the verge of bankruptcy, presumably it would be a very attractive straw to grasp.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Minister, this may have to be the final line of questioning, because the Minister is on his feet in the Chamber and we might find ourselves interrupted.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q One of the key premises behind the Bill is that, rather than subsidising farmers because there is a profitability problem in the industry, we should try to correct the causes of that poor profitability through grants and fairness in the supply chain. Can you give us some examples of the types of practices that undermine farmers’ position in the supply chain, whether it is hidden charges, hidden clawback costs from abattoirs and unfair contracting by dairy companies—the type of things that you would like to see addressed here and might make a difference to your members?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q On the concern about the RPA, at the moment it is responsible for things such as carcass classification. Although its brand may have been tarnished by trying to implement a very difficult and bureaucratic EU scheme, it has a breadth of knowledge about everything from school milk schemes right the way through to carcass classification. If the GCA were to do it, it would be funded by a levy, which would have to be funded by the industry itself. What is your concern about the RPA specifically?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q We could talk about that for a long time—that is very interesting. You mentioned the drop in rents. Does that imply that you expect a big drop in rural land values?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you, Mr Price and Mr Dunn. I am sorry to bring this to a slightly early conclusion, but I am reliably informed that the Division Bell will ring fairly shortly. We will bring in the next witness and at least get him installed.
Examination of Witness
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Good afternoon. For the benefit of the record, I would be grateful if you would introduce yourself.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Mr Feeney, let us ring the changes and ask the Front Bench Spokesman for the Opposition if he would like to set the ball rolling.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q What is the role of the Food Standards Agency in relation to the Bill? It is not at all clear.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Should you be more involved in it? If we are going to improve British farming, it is all going to be about quality. You measure quality in the abattoirs and in some of the other things you do. You are there as the guardians of the public duty. Should you have been more involved as an agency in this Bill?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Is the Food Standards Agency misnamed? The word “standards” tends to suggest quality.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q This is obviously an Agriculture Bill and its primary focus is around schemes to replace the common agricultural policy. Can you confirm whether there are any clauses that you feel undermine your independent ability to do the independent job you have to do? Can you explain the other pieces of legislation from which you draw your authority to implement food standards independently?
Tonia Antoniazzi (Labour, Gower)
Does the Bill fail to legislate to ensure that food imported into the UK post-Brexit is produced to the equivalent standards? Will the Food Standards Agency ensure that that happensQ ?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Order. I am sorry Mr Feeney, but I have to suspend the sitting. The expectation is that there will be two votes. If there are, we will resume at 3.25 pm. If there is only one, we will resume at 3.15 pm.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
We were sort of in the middle of a response to Ms Antoniazzi. I am not sure whether you got the answer you required or whether you would like to pick the question up again.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Labour, Gower)
Do you want me ask it again? I cannot remember.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
You cannot remember—that is a good start.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Labour, Gower)
A precise answer.
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I think the answer is: answer.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Labour, Gower)
Q What impact would that have on the devolved nations?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q What opportunity, if any, does the Bill present to your agency to support the development of more small abattoirs?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q If there is a drive for more farmers’ co-operatives and a greater focus on, say, regional, bespoke agricultural support to reflect agricultural practices and types—or if that is a by-product of the Bill—that should present an opportunity for the agency to have the dynamic to think in a more creative way about how it could support the growth of food of local provenance and its movement from field to plate in a local setting, adding value to a product of which we are seeking to maintain our production levels and volumes. Would you relish the opportunity to help proactively to facilitate that from the regulatory side?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you both for coming to give evidence and for bearing with us during the Division. I apologise for having to detain you. The Committee is very grateful to you indeed.
Examination of Witnesses
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
We shall now hear oral evidence from the National Farmers Union Cymru and the Farmers’ Union of Wales. We have until 5 o’clock, although we might not take that long. Gentlemen, starting with Dr Fenwick, will you introduce yourselves for the record?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you for joining us.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Schedule 3 is substantially different from other parts of the Bill relating to England. How do you think the Welsh Assembly did it and what hints can you give us in England to strengthen some of the different issues that we think need to be strengthened in the Bill?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Are you expecting the same payment arrangements? Whatever Administration is in power in Wales, you would expect them to keep to the agreement that the money is secure, certainly for this Parliament and, one presumes, for the seven years after that.
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q Does that worry you?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q As a point of clarity, agriculture policy is devolved, so perhaps I can clear up the mystery as to how the Welsh Government did it. They simply asked us to include a schedule in the Bill. Northern Ireland did the same and Scotland was the only part of the UK not to. There was no lobbying exercise or debate. It was a request that was duly accommodated.
I want to probe this point about the WTO. What is it in particular that concerns you? We obviously have an amber box allocation in which we could do market-distorting support if we wanted to, and it is largely accepted that the proposals would be green box. Just explain your concern about the WTO.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Just a second point on the issue of fairness in the supply chain. Obviously the premise behind the Bill, which the Welsh Government seem to have also adopted through the schedule, is that we should, in the long term, have the objective to move away from an arbitrary, area-based subsidy payment and instead correct the causes of low profitability in farming by strengthening our position in the supply chain. Could you give us your thoughts on that section of the Bill?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q May I ask about uplands farming and the economic viability regarding the future? I know people have expressed concern about support being withdrawn.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Changing tack completely, in terms of the trade deal scenario, Welsh lamb is a pretty important product. We have heard noises from Australia and New Zealand in particular about what they would like to see from a future trade deal. I know it is not specifically in the Bill, but is there anything we can do to protect it—the Bill goes to the heart of protecting standards and not allowing imports in. What impact do you think that would have?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Something like a non-regression clause in future trade deals?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q One last question. A story broke today about 300 cases of salmonella poisoning in lamb products and the Food Standards Agency warning people to cook their meat more. I did not get a chance to ask the Food Standards Agency witness, but do you think we are doing enough to enforce food safety standards in this country at the moment? One of the concerns that has been expressed about the Bill is that there is no regulatory baseline and there might not be enough enforcement and monitoring. How do you reward people going a bit further, if you are not monitoring whether people are actually adhering to the legal standards?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q The number of cases has risen significantly, which is why it has been reported. Do you have a feeling as to why that is?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q I am a little bit concerned. We share similar issues in Scotland, where we have a lot of upland farms. If tree planting was too generous, we could lose a lot of upland farms. Also, the measurement of carbon sequestration for grassland and the sheep eating it is a very different thing to measure compared with trees. Are you worried that if the policy is too generous, we could lose land to trees and never get it back? What would you like to see in the Bill? Is there some sort of balancing priority that gives equal status in your mind to food and farming?
Colin Clark (Conservative, Gordon)
Q Do you feel that food and farming have the right balance in the Bill? Is that what you are concerned about?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Have you anything to add, Mr Thomas?
David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)
Q We know about the differences between Ulster and the Republic, but there are places where farmers farm on both sides of the English-Welsh border. If there is a different system, what problems could that present?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q The CAP payments operate to a seven-year cycle. Could you share your thoughts on the suggestion that future payments might be tied to the Westminster budgetary cycle? If farmers are lucky, that might be three to five years, but the Government might change and the money flow might stall as a result. Can you tell us about your concerns on that issue and set out your thoughts on what sort of mechanism might be used to resolve it?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q First, may I declare that Mr Davies is a constituent of mine and that the Builth Wells office of NFU Cymru is based in my constituency?
If I may, Mr Thomas and Dr Fenwick, I will just pick you up by saying that there are not that many cross-border issues. Given that Brecon and Radnorshire share 65 miles of Offa’s Dyke, there is a lot of cross-border and I hear of great difficulties that arise on both sides of the border, with both systems, so I would not necessarily say that it is all one way.
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
We will agree to differ on that one.
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q Were the unions pleased or disappointed that the Welsh Government aligned themselves with this Bill?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q A very good political answer, Mr Thomas, but was the union pleased or disappointed that the Welsh Government aligned themselves with Westminster?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Mr Davies, feel free to respond to your constituency MP.
Jenny Chapman (Labour, Darlington)
Another way of asking the same question is: how would you have felt if the Welsh Government had declined to take part and had not asked for a schedule to be included in the Bill? How do you think that would that have gone downQ ?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q We heard from an earlier witness that 40% of UK lamb is exported to the continent, but we also heard that domestic consumption of lamb is reducing. I should declare an interest: I am a Welshman. After north Dorset lamb, I think that Welsh lamb is the second-best available to consumers—I want to ensure that that is on the record.
What opportunity, if any, do you think the Bill presents in terms of its ambition to support food production and to allow farmers to come together to better promote their produce in a more patriotic way, free of the EU guidelines that have often acted as a dampener on the patriotic promotion of provenance? What scope is there in the Bill and in the envisaged regime for supporting innovation and productivity?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q Quite a lot of Wales is covered by a national park designation, so we have the national park, the Welsh Assembly and Westminster and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Do you see the national parks as being a useful string to the bow in terms of fostering and supporting agriculture, or are they a potential irritant? [Interruption.] I can tell by the whispering that I have hit a chord.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q I want to ask specifically about the Bill and the difference between the schedule for Wales and the main Bill, which, when you boil it down, is paragraphs 1(2)(a) and 1(2)(c) of schedule 3. I do not need anyone to look it up—I can explain where it is. Broadly speaking, all that does is give Wales the power to support businesses or communities in rural areas and also to support persons involved in anything from the processing, marketing, or distribution of products derived from agricultural activity. Coming back to Dr Fenwick’s point, are you pleased with these additions or not? You talked about the importance of an active farmer test and making sure that the money goes to farmers, but the additional measures in the Welsh schedule open up the possibility to give money to post offices or any other type of rural community business. Do you support that or not?
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q Have the Welsh Government given you an indication of how they intend to use those additional powers? It could mean giving direct payments to farmers, or giving grants and money to people who make jam or cider or other novelty food process products.
George Eustice (Conservative, Camborne and Redruth)
Q It is an interesting point. The additions in the Welsh schedule could be read both ways. If you are worried about an active farmer test, then arguably you would not want that.
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
IQ have two questions, if I may. You have already mentioned the powers granted in the Bill to UK Ministers. Do you have any thoughts about the impacts that some of these powers might have on Welsh Government, and their ability to formulate agricultural policy? Are there any aspects that you welcome? Are there any aspects about which you have concerns?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Dr Fenwick, Hansard cannot record nodding, but I take it you are agreeing.
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q In that sense, are you surprised that there is not more in the Bill? Is there something that you would have liked to accompany the Bill in terms of progress made on these common frameworks and how they might be agreed upon in future? What strikes me is that not only will you have the initial discussion about how the original of the first new frameworks will operate, but there will inevitably be a need for these things to be renegotiated at a future date. Is it something that you would have liked to have seen?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q The Minister might remember my raising this question last week. Recently, a review was announced into the way in which payments will be allocated across the four countries of the United Kingdom. Would it be fair for that to include an element that looks at the future frameworks and how any disputes are arbitrated, and when reallocations come along in several years’ time, how they then come to be decided as well?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q I represent a Cumbrian constituency that is made up of English Lake district upland farms and coastal lowland farms. My sheep, beef and dairy farmers inform me that they receive about £70 for a lamb, £50 for a sheep and just 90p for wool per head and 29p for a litre of milk. Is that enough? What assessment has been made of what a fair price is? Does the Bill enable farmers, through innovation, through the reduction of supply chain, through enabling better local markets, to receive a fair price for their public goods?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q Do you feel that the Bill as it stands does allow for that change to happen?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q The Bill has already been characterised today as a scaffold rather than a building. It gives Ministers very wide discretionary powers, and most of the effect will be given by regulation. Yet there is very little statutory expectation of consultation. Would you feel more comfortable if there were more statutory consultation in the Bill?
Sandy Martin (Labour, Ipswich)
Q Sorry; I meant consultation on the regulations that will give effect, rather than on the Bill itself. Clearly, consultation on a Bill that does not specify exactly what will happen is one thing. Consultation on the regulations that will specify what will happen is surely something that you might welcome.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Farmers in other European Union countries have perhaps been more successful than farmers in the UK at attracting the capital funding that the Minister described in schedule 3. Given that those farmers have some very well organised and very large farmer-owned co-operatives that can not only get funding for processing, marketing and grain storage, but are big enough to square up to the supermarkets and other customers, how well organised are co-operatives in Wales, where you have lots of small farmers so co-operatives work very well? Do you see the capital funding going to the industry that the Bill would allow being a good thing for farmers, and would you see them as a preferred bidder to commercial companies that would be doing the same sort of thing?
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Do you think that because in the past, we have had a deficiency payment scheme—or, for some commodities, intervention buying—farmers have been less on the front foot? For example, we could sell skimmed milk powder and butter into intervention, when other countries were developing new products.
Robert Goodwill (Conservative, Scarborough and Whitby)
Q Would you say that the provisions in the Bill give a great opportunity for farmers in Wales to take advantage of this sort of scheme, which will then extend markets and take on the competition that may be coming in from abroad?
Deidre Brock (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh North and Leith)
Q I have a quick question about the consultation that the Welsh Government are conducting at the moment. Does it include proposals around the capping of payments?
Ben Lake (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)
Q Another quick question. We have spoken a lot about what is in the Bill today. Is there anything you would like to see that is not there? I have in mind the meat levy. There was some discussion in Wales about the possibility of including that in the Bill. Do you have any views on that particular omission and is there anything else you would like to see in the Bill?
Chris Davies (Conservative, Brecon and Radnorshire)
Q You probably heard the talk earlier about how there could be a compounded payment in the transition period. Do you think that would work in Wales and would it be a benefit to many of our senior farmers who were looking to retire? Do you see it as a benefit or not?
Tonia Antoniazzi (Labour, Gower)
Q Following on from Mr Davies’s question—he is good at taking mine—what impact will the transition period in the Bill have on farmers in Wales, directly? Will there be any?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
I think, maybe, a final word, Mr Thomas?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
If there are no further questions from Members, may I thank the witnesses for their evidence? Dr Fenwick, Mr Davies, Mr Thomas—do you want one final word?
Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)
Thank you very much for coming. Thank you for your evidence. Have a safe journey home. We are grateful to you for the answers that you have given to all members of the Committee.