Offensive Weapons Bill
Public Bill Committee, 19 July 2018.
Examination of Witnesses
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Before we continue to take oral evidence, Members, please feel free to take your jackets off, as it is very hot in here. That applies to witnesses, too, if you want to be cooler and more comfortable—the air-conditioning in this building is erratic. I remind Members and all visitors in the Gallery to switch off their mobile phones and other electronic devices or switch them to silent.
We will now resume our oral evidence sessions and hear evidence from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. Welcome.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters in the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme order agreed by the Committee. For this session, we have until 12 noon. I would be grateful if the witnesses introduced themselves for the record.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
The Minister has lost her voice, so I will start. Gentlemen, did you see the evidence we received on Tuesday from the National Crime Agency and the National Ballistics Intelligence ServiceQ 169 ?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you agree with it?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Please do.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I have the minutes here as well, and in fairness, the NCA said that the absolute maximum potential range was 6.8 km, but that the intent of that particular weapon was to immobilise light or medium-sized vehicles at a range of 1.8 km.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What would be the damage caused by using target ammunition with a weapon of this nature?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What would be the implications of the ban in the Bill? Why are you and your members so concerned?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Are you concerned about the numbers that we were given of the number of firearms that are stolen—that have already been stolen this year—and enter the illegal market?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you have any advice as to how we can reduce the numbers that are stolen and enter the illegal market? I understand it is a small percentage.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I note that you mentioned that you are a keen antique gun collector.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
That was you, Mr Harriman. Sorry. Some 30% of the guns used in firearms offences last year were of an obsolete calibre. We discussed that with the National Crime Agency and the National Ballistics Intelligence Service on Tuesday. Do you think the laws relating to antique weapons can be improved to prevent that figure from being so high?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q One of the suggestions we heard was that there should be a new offence of possessing components of ammunition with intent to manufacture, obviously because of the potential consequences of marrying that up with an obsolete calibre firearm. Would you have any issue with that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q How many individuals and licences will be affected by the ban in this Bill?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you accept, though, that if these guns were to fall into the wrong hands, they would do a huge amount of damage?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Finally, is it just the energy value element that you object to? Do you have any issues with the bump stock part?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
MrQ Harriman, you said that you believe that instead of banning these rifles, we can better meet the concerns by specifying a high level of security. What would that mean?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
IQ draw your attention to page 26, clause 28(2), which will amend the Firearms Act 1968 by adding paragraph (ah) to section 5 of that Act; I will give you a moment to get there. Do you have any concerns with the type of firearm listed there?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Do you have any concerns about the fact that these weapons could potentially be rapid-firing weapons?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I am always a bit reticent about using comparisons with military rifles, given that military rifles can fire at very high rates of fire that we would not accept. Mr Graffius, do you have any comments?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q To be clear: you are comfortable with the ban on bump stocks—in your evidence, that was quite clear—but you do not have a concern about this particular element?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q In theory, the same could be argued for bump stocks, but—
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Okay. Thank you.
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q Mr Graffius, you mentioned shooting as a sport, and we know that we have world-class sportsmen and women in this field. What effect, if any, do you think this legislation would have on that?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
You referred to the distances in shooting. As we heard in evidence on antiques, if somebody is going to steal weapons or buy them legally, distance is probably not an issue if they are going to use it to commit a shooting or a murder. We have heard that they are ending up being used to shoot and murder people. You have some issues in terms of recreational shooting, but what would you suggest we do differently, bearing in mind that the items are being stolen?Q
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Can I just correct that, Mr Graffius? The NCA submitted to us that a .50 calibre weapon stolen in 2016 was fired and had its barrel shortened.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Given that its barrel was shortened, I think we can reasonably infer they were intending to use it. That would not have been done by its legal owner.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q A rifle that was stolen in the same theft was used separately in another crime by the same individual.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q No, but there is an example of it falling into the wrong hands, which is really quite terrifying and is exactly why it features in the Bill.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Q Gentlemen, is there anything that you wish to add—something that you would like to have been asked, but did not get the opportunity?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
In which case, Mr Graffius and Mr Harriman, thank you for coming this morning. We will move on to our next witnesses.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Q We will now hear oral evidence from the Children’s Commissioner and the Victims’ Commissioner. We have until 1 pm for this session. May I ask the witnesses to introduce yourselves, please, for the record?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Thank you very much. The acoustics in this room are quite difficult, so could everybody speak up? It is a long way for some of us to hear.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Thank you for coming to see us this morning. Baroness Newlove, could you describe your personal experience as a victim in the criminal justice system, and why that led you to campaign for victims’ rights and a victims’ law?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Would you say that that lack of respect comes from the whole criminal justice system at every stage?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Could you explain to the Committee what your recommendations are for a victims’ law or victims’ bill of rights?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q On the independent advocate proposal, how is Victim Support not filling that gap at the moment?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I appreciate entirely what you say about it not just being about legislation, but in legislative terms, am I right in thinking that the key element is that right to a legal review from the Crown Prosecution Service and the police?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Thank you. Ms Longfield, your recent report on vulnerability identified more than half a million children who were so vulnerable that the state had to step in, and tens of thousands of children involved with gangs. Could you explain what your definition of vulnerability in this context is, and why these children are so vulnerable to exploitation by criminal gangs?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you think the Government’s current policy response is sufficient?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I do not think that anyone would disagree with that. It is a problem that every Government have struggled with—the Whitehall separation and the need for a whole-system approach. How do we crack that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q How do schools fit into the new safeguarding arrangements?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Finally, why do you think so many children are so vulnerable? Has the number of children who are vulnerable to exploitation by criminal gangs increased?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
That is really shocking. Thank you both so much for giving evidence today. You have both provided really invaluable evidence. I should have said that at the beginning.
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
MyQ question is for Baroness Newlove. You have made a very strong case about a professional—a paid advocate who supports victims. I just want to probe that a bit further. Were you talking about support for victims or victims’ families, and what do you think when it comes to qualifications? Would they be legal qualifications? Would it be counselling experience? Do you think there is a difference between being a paid advocate for people who are under 18 and one for those over 18?
I am assuming there is obviously a difference between the qualifications one would need to support victims of a different ages; but really I am trying to get a sense of what kind of person you would be looking for and, also, what their duties would be, in your experience. Would it be explaining what is happening in the court system? Not everyone will know. Would it be administrative help with filling out forms or giving advice on finances? I am trying to get a clearer picture of the case you are making, which I think is a strong case.
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Would you mind speaking slightly louder? Sorry, I cannot hear; the acoustics are quite bad.
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Yes; that was very comprehensive, thank you.
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q My question is about the care system. They are looked-after children and we are supposed to act as their parent. What more do you think we can do, particularly as they are far more vulnerable to being excluded, have more adverse childhood experiences and are more likely to get involved, or be tasked with being involved, in youth violence?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Before we take any more questions, may I suggest that some questions should be about the actual Bill? We have had some general discussions so far, and I have been very tolerant, but it is probably time to focus on the Bill.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q I will try to be a bit more specific. Ms Longfield, you have articulated a story where there are almost predictable patterns of children going into violence. I know we are talking about human beings and numbers, but that kind of forensic analysis of the data can be really helpful. To be a bit closer to the Bill, I want to get down to the specific intervention that is required. In particular, when we are talking about access or exposure to violent crime or weapons, what can we really do to have an effective intervention?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q We heard evidence earlier this week that exposure to gangs is a real problem, and that very young children as victims can all too easily become perpetrators because of their environment. We heard about the importance of education, about the power and influence of acid attacks and knives, and about understanding the victims. Is there an educational element in terms of that empathy and understanding? I know it sounds bizarre, but there is a link between victims and perpetrators.
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Baroness, could you say a little more about what change a victims’ law would make to individuals from your perspectiveQ ?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q This morning we have seen reports about a further increase in knife crime. Can you say a little more specifically about knife crime and acid crime and about any particular feedback on the standard of service that victims of those crimes face?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q Thank you for that—that is hugely helpful. In the light of the provisions in the Bill, is there anything specific around the victims of acid attacks?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
This is a quick question for Anne Longfield. In some of the submissions that we have received, and some of the evidence that we have had, there has been a suggestion that we should make it a specific offence for somebody who is under 18 to attempt to purchase either a corrosive substance or a knife. What is your position on that suggestion?Q
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Yes.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q So you would oppose any sort of attempt to put that into the Bill.
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q We have heard from you and from Rob Owen about what seems to be a very strong link between offensive weapons and young people who have been excluded from school. You have talked about the work that can be done and alluded to alternative provision in Manchester. Can you give some specifics about what can be done at the point when young people have been excluded from school and, as we hear, are being targeted by gangs because they are available and perhaps vulnerable and in trouble? Are there any successful pilots currently operational in this field?
Karin Smyth (Labour, Bristol South)
Baroness Newlove, in terms of the sorts of things you would like to see for victim support, are you looking at models elsewhere in the world and considering whether they may be helpful for us? I know you are working on it here, but is there anywhere else that looks goodQ ?
Karin Smyth (Labour, Bristol South)
Q I do not disagree. I am just interested in whether there are places that could be considered with other resources.
Karin Smyth (Labour, Bristol South)
Q Thank you. This question is for Ms Longfield. We heard that a lot of the crime associated with the sorts of weapons we are looking at is around London, where there are major problems. Do you have a view about the geographical spread of the problems we all have in relation to the outcomes of the sorts of things we are looking at in the Bill?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I found it interesting to hear what you said, Chair, about being conscious that we are a Bill Committee, so I will focus on a couple of questions about the Bill. In terms of clause 1, which details the sale of corrosive products to persons under 18, we have asked in the other evidence sessions whether 18 would be a suitable age. I have asked retailers. Do you have any thoughts about that provision?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I am conscious that we have only nine minutes. Is 18 still the appropriate age to be in the Bill, or should it be 25?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q I accept that there has to be a cut-off, because we are making a piece of law. What impact do you think the provisions on corrosive substances will have on reducing the number of victims of those offences given, as you outlined earlier, Baroness Newlove, the huge impact it has on people?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Thank you for those comments. Can I take you to clause 6(1)(b) of the Bill, which says
“when the offence was committed, the person…was aged 16 or over”?
Are you content with that provision? Is it appropriate?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Given that we have spent a lot of time talking about the provisions on the prohibition of certain types of firearms, which are quite a major part of the Bill, do you have any specific thoughts on those areas in relation to your positions and roles?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
So not a particularly strong view either way on those provisions. Thank you.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What do both of you think about mandatory minimum sentencing for children?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Can you reconfirm that your victims law and your recommendations about it were in the Conservative manifesto in 2017?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q But there was a victims law promised in that manifesto.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Are there any more questions about the Bill? No. In that case, I thank the witnesses for coming. It has been a very useful session.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
We will continue by hearing oral evidence from the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. We have until 2.30 pm for this panel. Welcome to our witnesses. For the record, could you introduce yourselves?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
If you wish to take your jackets off, because it is very hot in here, please do.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Thank you very much for joining us this afternoon to give evidence on the Offensive Weapons Bill. Will you explain to us why you have concerns for your members regarding the age verification measures contained in the BillQ 226?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Could you tell the Committee what kind of numbers we are talking about for threats or assaults on retail workers?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Over 6,000, you say. Is that the biggest factor?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What is your proposed solution?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Why do you think shop workers are not sufficiently protected by other offences that offenders can be prosecuted for, such as assault, actual bodily harm and grievous bodily harm?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Why would a new offence correct the issues in the criminal justice system around plea bargaining and incorrect charges being applied or magistrates not paying due heed to aggravating circumstances?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
You might duplicate some of what you have just said to Louise Haigh, but I just want to clarify some things. I have your biography here, Tony. You say that the Bill should make it a specific offence toQ
“Attempt to purchase corrosive substances and knives underage.”
That should be criminalised. You have talked about that, but we heard in evidence this morning and previously concern about criminalising younger people, who are sometimes forced to make decisions that they would not necessarily take by themselves, perhaps by being goaded or pushed into a place. Could you speak to that a little bit?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q I should have prefaced my remarks by saying that I do feel for retailers, who are putting themselves in considerable danger, just to make a living, whether we are talking about counterfeiting or other issues with tobacco, alcohol and all these restricted items. Picking up on what you said, Doug, about Scotland, what is the impact of that difference in the laws in Scotland about tobacco?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q They think that is partly because underage people underage fear criminalisation.
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q On the other two, about intimidating or assaulting a worker enforcing the age restrictions in relation to any sale, I have a point of clarification on the evidence we are receiving. They are clearly criminal offences already. Assault—you used the word assault—is a criminal offence. You can talk about messages, but I am always wary about embedding anything in primary legislation to send a signal, because we have to make the primary legislation work. It has to be enforceable. How would you make it enforceable? How would you differentiate the two? If a police officer was going to be charging someone, how would the CPS then know which offence they will charge someone with and which angle would they go with? You have to make it work, if there is going to be a specific offence.
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q So you envisage different sentencing.
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
A quick question: notwithstanding your argument in favour of some of the proposals, I was wondering whether training for shop workers and shop staff in dealing with the process of getting the appropriate information out of an individual and dealing with situations that might be confrontational would help in achieving your objectiveQ .
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q A quick factual, and slightly tangential question: has there been a rise in violent assaults against shopkeepers with weapons—guns or knives—in recent years?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
That would be very helpful. Thank you.
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Just following on from the subject of physical attacks with weapons in stores, do you think it would be helpful if we legislated for all knives and sharp instruments to be locked away behind counters, rather than just having the voluntary agreements?Q
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q There is one question that follows on from that about distribution. I was explaining to another panel that I went down the high street in Sutton, in my constituency, with a couple of anti-knife charities, and different shops were doing different things. There is obviously the voluntary code at the moment, but it was inconsistent. A lot of people were not aware of it. So, regarding display, how is it working at the moment for your retail workers and what would be the effect on those retail workers if things were changed and mandated?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Either under lock and key, or behind the counter—whatever.
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q You represent retailers as well as shop workers, do you not?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Just the workers. One of the things I noticed when I went round last year—one of the issues, I suppose, for retailers—is that the more difficult you make it for someone to access the product, to feel the product, or whatever, the less likely they are to buy it. So you have the defence aspect. You want to protect your workers. You want to ensure that people are not just swiping the knives to use them then, which is the whole point of the Bill in the first place, but you do not want to get in the way of businesses selling something because it is on open display. How do you get that balance?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Forgive my ignorance, but the distributive bit—the “D” of USDAW—does that include distributors such as deliverers or anything like that? Do you have an angle or a view on what might happen to distributors?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Yes. What might happen to the people who are actually out and what about if there are unintended consequences?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
There are no further questions, so thank you Mr Russell and Mr Dale. We will now move on to our final panel of the day.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
We will now hear oral evidence from Thames Valley police. We have until 3 o’clock for this session. If the bell rings for a Division in the Chamber we might have to go out for 15 minutes and then come back and conclude. I hope that it will be after the evidence session, but we cannot be sure. Would you please introduce yourself?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Thank you for coming to give evidence. Reading is a particular recipient of county lines. Could you describe to the Committee the current picture of serious violence that you are encountering in Reading, what kinds of offensive weapons you are encountering, the demographics of the offenders, and how you are currently responding to it?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q You said a 250% increase?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What kind of knives are they using? What kind of knives are you finding?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q So the measures in the Bill will help you to respond to that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q In Reading, I understand that you are adopting a trauma-informed response to the issue. Could you describe how that works for the Committee?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Are there any barriers that you face in taking that approach? Is there anything that we can help with in Parliament that would enable you to do even more of that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Is it children in the looked-after system that you are mostly dealing with?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q We heard this morning, but it gets said quite often, that knife crime is cyclical. Why would knife crime be cyclical and what do you think are the main factors that have driven the recent increase in violent crime?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you think school-based police officers, or police officers allocated to schools, would help the response to the problem?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Clearly the Bill seeks to address and tackle the issue around offensive weapons and the sale and possession of knives. Do you have any information about how these young people—they are predominantly young people in county lines—are getting the knives? In other words, are they buying them themselves, or is an adult buying them for themQ ?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q Could you quantify what sort of effect you think the Bill will have?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q It may be that these young people —schoolchildren, very often—travel into Reading, and a 250% increase is huge. As they travel in, in possession of a knife, what sort of resources do you have at the travel hubs in Reading to stop them and to deal with it at that point? Is this something you have looked at?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q So you have not conducted any pilots to concentrate on these travel hubs?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q What sort of drugs are these young people carrying across county lines?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q Do you have any sort of media targeting the people who would be using drugs such as heroin or cocaine to let them know that young people who are being abused are bringing it to them?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q Is that message getting through?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Coming back to stop-and-search, can you just outline what changes have happened in your stop-and-search over the last two, three or four years? How have you approached it?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Are there any more changes that could be made, such as regulations or guidance, to tackle what you were just describing to Mary Robinson— tackling them at a wider perimeter, rather than their coming in toward a fight and then you doing the stop-and-search?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q In the briefing we have here, it says you are particularly interested in the new powers that are given to police officers to deal with acid attacks on individuals. In what way are you interested in that?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q You talked about zombie knives. Is there a particular profile of people or groups that are escalating to zombie knives, machetes and the like?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Finally, you talked about the game “Fortnite”. Are you doing anything about demonstrating the actual consequences, with graphic stuff?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
“This is what it is like?”
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q That presumably includes the non-gang stuff. We heard the other day how 75% of the people St Giles Trust was working with are non-gang. Would that include them?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
It is clear from the evidence sessions that it is important to liaise not only with the pupil referral units, but generally with schools. Do you think there is more we can do to engage schools, specifically and strategically, through the crime and disorder reduction partnershipsQ ?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Chief Inspector, you were at the beginning of an answer to a question from Mr Morgan. Would you like to pick up where you were?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q Strategically through CDRPs, is there value there where more could be done?
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
Q My other question was how confident are you that the duties in the Bill will actually help to reduce crime?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
You made some comments earlier about “Fortnite” that concerned me. Unfortunately, we are hearing a lot about that here in Parliament. You mentioned that parents are probably buying weapons for children, as well, whether intentionally or unintentionally. That does raise the question about the online world and parental responsibility. As it relates to age verification online, do you see problems in that area? Children are meant to be 12 years old before they play “Fortnite” but you are probably seeing much younger children being exposed to violence. Then there is the age verification as it relates to buying products that they probably should not be buying at a certain age. Do you see that online world being problematic? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but you have alluded to some difficulties thereQ .
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Do you think there is sufficient awareness among parents of how to turn those verifications and approvals on and off?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Can I follow up on a couple of questions that you were asked earlier about acid attacks and corrosive substances? In your experience, who is carrying or even using acids and corrosive substances? In particular, do you tend to find that it is adults—18 or over—or is it sometimes also under-18s?Q
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q In relation to under-18s, do you have any knowledge about where they get the substances from? Do they just buy them themselves in a shop, or are they are being supplied from somewhere else?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q The Bill will create a new offence of selling a corrosive substance to a person under 18, but not of supplying. You could still supply without consideration a corrosive substance to somebody under 18. Does that cause you any concern or, given the evidence that just gave, do you think that prohibiting sales should be enough in itself?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Are you happy enough that the age is set at 18? You would not argue for a higher age limit?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
That brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions. I thank Chief Inspector Burroughs for her evidence today, and all our previous witnesses as well. That brings us to the end of the oral evidence sessions on the Bill. The Committee will meet again to begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill at 4.30 pm on my 66th birthday, Tuesday 4 September, but I will not be in the Chair on that occasion.