Offensive Weapons Bill
Public Bill Committee, 17 July 2018.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Before we begin, let me say that Members can take your jackets off if they wish; I am certainly going to take off mine. Please switch all electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings, but you can finish the ones that you have—I am feeling lenient.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper, then the motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication, and then the motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. In view of the limited time available, I hope that we can take those matters formally without debate.
I call the Minister to move the programme motion in her name, which was discussed yesterday by the Programming Sub-Committee for the Bill.
TABLE
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
The deadline for amendments to be considered at the first line-by-line sitting of the Committee is Thursday 30 August.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
I am grateful for the publication of written evidence, but the responses to the consultation that was the forerunner to the Bill have not yet been published. A summary of the responses is on the Home Office website, but several of the witnesses who will give evidence today reference their consultation responses in their biographies, and we have not had access to them. Could we at least have the consultation responses from the witnesses who are giving evidence today and on Thursday, if not all the responses?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Yes.
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
The list of corrosive substances in schedule 1 is based on some scientific advice that the Government have received, as I understand it. Could that advice be made available to us as well?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
If I may, I will check with the officials and get back to the Committee on that.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Perhaps we will come back to that, if necessary.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Copies of written evidence will be made available in the Committee room.
Examination of witnesses
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Good morning. We are now in the public part of our sitting. We will hear evidence from Redthread, the Ben Kinsella Trust, St Giles Trust and Acid Survivors Trust International.
I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. We must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has already agreed. For this session with the four witnesses here, we have until 10.55 am. Before we start, do any Members of the Committee wish to declare any relevant interests in connection with the Bill?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
For the sake of completeness, Mr Gapes, I used to prosecute for the Crown Prosecution Service and other prosecuting agencies before I was elected to this place.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Thank you very much. Any others? No.
I ask the witnesses that when you answer a question for the first time, please introduce yourselves and tell us about your background. We will do it that way rather than any other way round, to save time.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
I start by welcoming the witnesses to the Committee. Thank you for coming to give evidence. To help to put the measures in the Bill on knives and acids into context, could you explain to the Committee what your organisations do in supporting victims and survivors, and explain the work you do with young people to divert them away from serious violence?Q
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you. May we hear your views on the availability of knives and acids to young people at the moment? We will start with Mr Poynton.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q May I echo the Minister’s thanks for coming to give evidence to the Committee today? Your evidence so far already shows the vast experience that you have in this area. You mentioned exclusions and the fact that gangs target pupil referral units. That is certainly the experience in my constituency, where every child who has been murdered so far this year had been permanently excluded from school, and was murdered by another child who had been permanently excluded from school. In your experience of working with schools, are they all willing to co-operate? If not, is there anything that the Government could do to help that co-operation at a local level, with the voluntary sector, the police and local authorities?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q You have all talked about the multitude of factors that can lead to young people, and indeed adults, carrying knives and acid. I am sure we would all agree that simply taking that weapon off a young person is not going to solve the factors behind this. Do you agree with evidence we have had from the Standing Committee for Youth Justice, which has concerns about the mandatory minimum sentencing for young people in the Bill? It says:
“Children carry weapons for a multitude of…reasons”
and criminal justice measures are unlikely to be effective in tackling this. It also says:
“There is no evidence that the threat of custody deters children.”
Is that a concern that you share?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Just to come back on that, the Government would obviously argue that they have a serious violence strategy and that there are measures alongside it. Do you actually oppose mandatory minimum sentences for under-18s?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Mr Owen, I think you mentioned earlier that you are hearing about children as young as 10 or 11 carrying Q knives. At what age are children actually perpetrating acts of violence or being victims? How young are we talking about?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Really, same age?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Mr Shah, you mentioned that children at school are carrying acid—what age with them?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q We hear a lot, and we have heard it today, about men—primarily—and young men perpetrating these attacks. Is it all men? With knife crime, what are we talking about—70%, 80% or 90% men?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Finally, all of you have talked about the need for intensive support, interventions and so on, but I am still not 100% clear on exactly what that means. Mr Shah, you talked about education and ensuring that people understand the impact—the human stories behind the crimes committed—but what else is there? What else can be done? What works in terms of that intervention? Is it counselling, education, finding other activities or locking people up? What actually works?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q I want to ask some questions about the corrosive substance elements of the Bill, so I guess my questions are mainly to Mr Shah, but I would be interested to know what others have to say about this as well. Mr Shah, at the start you told us that you had done a freedom of information exercise, compiling data about acid attacks around the UK. Do you think that enough data on this subject is being collected at the moment and published by the Home Office?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q On the data for the UK, did you say half the acid attacks in the UK are in London? Did I understand you correctly?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q So not quite 50%, but very close.
I would be interested in your views about something that puzzles me about the Bill—no doubt at some point we will have the opportunity to ask the Minister about this. There are two main offences in the Bill relating to corrosive substances: selling them to people under 18—the Bill bans that—and having them in a public place. However, the definition of “corrosive substance” differs for those two offences. For the first, there is a reference to a schedule: you must not sell the products in schedule 1 to people under 18. For the second, there is a different definition, in clause 5(9), which states that
“‘corrosive substance’ means a substance which is capable of burning human skin by corrosion”.
From your point of view, which of those two approaches is preferable? Should we have a list setting out the problem substances, or would a more general definition work better?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q Does the list in schedule 1 look roughly right to you?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q Is there anything that it strikes you is not on the list but really ought to be?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q The Bill makes it an offence to sell any of those substances to somebody under 18. Do you think 18 is the right place to set the age limit, or should we look at banning sales to people under 21, for example?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q One more question. You referred to the fact that sulphuric acid was recently promoted from the lesser category under the explosive precursor regulations to the higher category, which means you have to have a licence to purchase it. I agree with you that that was definitely the right thing to do. Do you think there is a case for having a fresh look at that whole classification arrangement and the distinction in those regulations between substances that are reportable and those that are regulated?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Thank you very much.
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
I have four questions, so perhaps I can aim one at each person rather than going through everyone. Mr Owen, you are absolutely right to say that education is key to stopping knives. Clearly, by the time someone has a knife, it is too late. Stop-and-search and sentencing are important, but they are part of a whole, as you say. Notwithstanding whatQ Mr Poynton said about custodial sentences and people knowing people who did not go to prison after committing two offences, what is people’s awareness of custodial sentencing? You said it is not really a deterrent. Is that just because they think they can get away with it, so they are going to do it anyway? What is the level of awareness that they might get caught?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q That is a very interesting point about what they might earn at McDonald’s, because often the attraction, as you say, is that they think they can earn a couple hundred quid a day by dealing drugs, and you will find it hard to encourage them to get a normal job like most people, but you have turned it on its head.
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Absolutely. Thank you very much; that was very powerful. Mr Poynton, I am interested to hear a little more about the 75%—the non-gangs—because that is a huge figure. Is there a sense of profile? Why are kids not only carrying knives, but then using them? Is it just for protection around schools, or something like that?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Thank you very much. Mr Green, I was wondering about the types of knives used. Do you have any thoughts or findings on whether different types of knives are used between gang members and people who are carrying them for personal protection? Are they the same sorts of sources—shoplifting, as you were saying?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Is that where zombie knives and machetes manifest themselves?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q I am not sure whether you will know this, Mr Owen. Knives are obviously easier to conceal, but has the use of guns changed with younger people in gangs?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Mr Shah, you said that you broadly agree with the list in the schedule. What is the context of the materials? How do they manifest themselves in household products? What kind of products are typically used?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Thank you.
Sarah Jones (Labour, Croydon Central)
I do not think I need to register the fact that I chair the all-party group on knife crime and John is close to the secretariat. This has been a really interesting morning. You are painting an accurate and vivid picture of some of the challengesQ . I want to ask a couple of questions about education and health, which we have talked about quite a lot. The statistics on people who come to hospital, having been stabbed again and again, and who then have an intervention are incredible: they do not come back. It works. How many major trauma centres have this amazing service and how many have not? What interaction have you had with the Department of Health and Social Care? Does it fund anything? Does it interact or engage in this agenda?
On the education side, everything you said chimes with what I have seen. In Croydon we had 60 serious case reviews of youth violence, and in every single case each of the 60 kids was outside mainstream school, so there is clearly a pattern there. What specifically do we need in terms of resources in schools? We have not touched on policing in schools, which is one aspect that may or may not be worth mentioning. What engagement is there from the Department for Education on this, and indeed from Ofsted? We talked about Ofsted potentially having a greater role. The question is about what traction you are getting from other Government Departments.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
We only have a few minutes left and four people still wish to ask questions. If we have quick questions and brief answers, we will get everybody in; otherwise, we will not be able to, as we have an absolute cut-off on the time. I call Mary Robinson.
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
I will try to be as brief as I can. People will be shocked to know that children as young as nine, 10 or 11 are engaged in this sort of crime. We are talking about legislation, but the common theme has been around education, which seems to be pivotal in avoiding this in the future and moving people away from it.Q
One clear link struck me—that between school exclusion and young people becoming involved in county lines. It is a clear marker, which says to me that it is a clear point for intervention. At the point of school exclusion—the education side of things may have failed for whatever reason, and young people may have troubled family backgrounds—are the interventions robust enough? Are they strong enough? What needs to be done? Given that we are seeing county lines moving out into other regions and other areas, which may not have the experience of London, can we take the learning experience and do something there quickly in terms of interventions?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Okay—
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Can we move on? We are not going to get everybody in otherwise.
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
My question is primarily for Rob Owen, but others can chip in. It is about ex-gang members working with young people. If I look to the “Scared Straight” programme, for example, young people involved in that were between 1.1% and 2.6% more likely to get involved in criminal activity using knives and so on. I have not yet seen any evidence that supports ex-gang members advertising themselves as ex-gang members working with young people and having any positive outcomesQ .
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q To carry on with that: it is a narrow group, not a wide one.
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q Exiting gang members is slightly different.
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
My question is for Mr Green. Going back to what you said about credible adults speaking to young people: in my borough we have had a number of fatal stabbings, and one of the schools now has a named police officer. Would you clarify what you think is the effectiveness of having a named police officer in a school, and whether you think every school should have them? In my experience, it worked in certain schools in our borough but not others with different ethnic make-ups. Not much trust was built with the school, because of inherent suspicions of police officers, I suppose. Have you been able to quantify the results of having a police officer in a school? Is it something you would recommend?Q
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Do I have time for another question?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
No.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Mr Shah, the Bill would seek to make it an offence to sell corrosive products to people under the age of 18. Would you be concerned if the Bill did not also make it an offence to supply corrosive substances to under-18s for free, or for example to buy a corrosive substance on behalf of someone under the age of 18Q ?
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Q Mr Owen, I was struck by what you said about safe places to stab people, and that it was on social media. I do not know what kind of relationship you have with social media platforms that promote this, and whether there is an onus on them to take responsibility for the fact that this is being advertised, and young people are being influenced by it.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
That brings us to the end of the time allotted for this first panel. I thank all four of you for coming this morning; your evidence has been very useful and will help with deliberations when we consider the Bill.
Examination of Witnesses
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Crown Prosecution Service, the London Borough of Croydon and the Chartered Trading Standards Institute. We have until 11.25 am for this session. Would you like to introduce yourself briefly?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I should declare that I used to prosecute for the Crown Prosecution Service and other prosecuting agencies. Thank you for joining us. To help to establish measures on online sales of knifes and the package of measures on corrosive substances in the Bill, could you explain how action currently is taken against retailers that fail to follow the law for online sales of knifes in particular?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Just to clarify, since 2006 it has been prohibited for knives to be sold online to under-18s. Of course, knives have not been allowed to be sold to under-18s since the 1950s.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q The measures on knives are mirrored when it comes to corrosive substances. What are your views on that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Ms Burls, did you say that the Bill is still missing the statutory powers you need?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What would those powers look like?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you have drafts of amendments that would reflect that, or could you submit that to the Committee?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Mr Penhale, in the last four years in particular we have seen violent crime rising, but equally the numbers of arrests and prosecutions have fallen. A recent Sunday Times investigation into nearly 1 million crimes in 2017 showed that nearly half of violent and sexual offences were not taken to successful prosecution even when there was an identified culprit. Is the CPS and the criminal justice system sufficiently resourced to deal with the current legislation, let alone more legislation?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
But there have been increasing numbers of cases and increasing numbers of trials that have collapsed, have there not? This is largely due to a lack of sufficient resources in the wider criminal justice systemQ .
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
Can I gently suggest that we ask questions specifically about the Bill?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
My point, Mr Gapes, is that there is not a lot of point passing new legislation if it is not going to be enforced.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
I understand your point, I am just gently suggesting that we focus on the Bill.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Can I ask, then—we covered it slightly in the first session—about mandatory minimums and whether you have concerns that mandatory minimums, particularly for under 18s, fetter judicial discretion?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Finally, part of the lobbying around this Bill and around serious violence more broadly is around the rights of victims in the criminal justice system. Do you have any thoughts on the Victims’ Commissioner’s suggestions that all victims of serious crime should be entitled to an independent advocate? Do you think that would be welcome to help them to navigate through the criminal justice system? Obviously it is quite a complex environment, and often their rights are quite diminished in the wider system.
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q I remember going down Sutton High Street with a couple of anti-knife crime charities last year, walking down some of the big department stores and some of the smaller stores as well, looking at the displays and at how easy it is swipe a knife, frankly. Are there any regulations or recommendations that trading standards is able to use at the moment with shops?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q I know you are the London lead, but do you do that in Croydon?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q How does it work?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q What do you do? Do you walk around and check them, or is it feedback?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q How do you envisage policing the corrosive substance aspect of the Bill?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Q Ben, do come in. You presumably would also need specific training. It is pretty clear what a knife is, but for a corrosive substance you need a bit more technical knowledge presumably.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q A couple of quick questions. First, the Bill seeks to make it an offence to sell corrosive substances. Is there a need also to make it an offence to supply without consideration corrosive substances to under-18s—for example, a 19-year-old buying a corrosive substance on behalf of a younger sibling, or someone else?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Would it not be better to deal with the domestic situation that you have described by having a defence to the offence of supply, rather than just removing supply from the Bill altogether?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q That is very helpful, thank you. You also mentioned that quite often the people involved in the delivery of either corrosive substances or knives will be different from the remote seller. Do you think that the Bill goes far enough in placing responsibilities on delivery companies not to do so to residential premises, or to persons under 18?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Just to give you an example that struck me, it is an offence, as I understand it—I might be wrong—for a delivery person to deliver a corrosive product, or indeed a knife, to a person under 18 if the seller is outside the United Kingdom. I do not understand why the provisions relate only to a seller outside the United Kingdom. Do you have any idea why that might be the case?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q A final question from me. There is a new offence of delivery of bladed products to residential premises. For perfectly understandable reasons, there are various defences. For example, for a person charged with an offence under section 15—delivery to residential premises—a defence is that, first, the bladed product was adapted for the buyer before its delivery in accordance with specifications provided by the buyer and, secondly, such adaptations were made to enable and facilitate the use of the product by the buyer or its use for a particular purpose. That seems to be pretty broad and almost vague. Do you have any concerns about the scope of the defences?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Are there any other comments on any of those questions?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q The Bill makes it an offence to sell corrosive substances to people under 18. As I understand it, the evidence is that when checks are made of retailers’ compliance with not selling things that they are already prohibited from selling to under-18s, there is a high level of failure. Can you tell us a little about what trading standards’ experience is of the degree of compliance with bans on sales to under-18s, what you think that tells us about how effective the ban will be in this case, and what we can do to make it more effective?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Yes.
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q Let me ask about another aspect of compliance. The sale of some things listed in the explosives precursor regulations requires a licence to buy them. Sulphuric acid has recently been added to that list. Some of these products are sold in hardware stores and, I think, in some cases pound shops, where drain cleaner is sold. What is your impression of the degree of compliance likely with this new obligation to have a licence before buying these things? Are shopkeepers going to check that? How does it appear?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q One final question: to what extent do you think retailers are alert to the concerns about acid sales? Is this on their agenda? Do trading standards departments discuss it with retailers or is it quite new and not in operation?
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
I call Nigel Huddleston, and this will be the last question.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q I will make it a short one. This is specifically for Mr Penhale. Clause 26 makes changes to the legal test of threatening with an offensive weapon. Can you explain the challenges you face with the current test?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Thank you.
Mike Gapes (Labour/Co-operative, Ilford South)
That brings us to the end of our oral evidence session. The Committee will continue to take oral evidence this afternoon from 2 pm. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee for their evidence and ask the Government Whip to move the adjournment.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Q 58 I welcome you all to this meeting of the Committee on the Offensive Weapons Bill. We are taking expert evidence to better inform our detailed discussion of the Bill in Committee, which will start immediately after the summer recess.
Before I go on, I advise the panel that we will extend the session to half-past 3, for the simple reason that we have a Division then. Rather than start the new panel at 3.15 pm, we will continue with you until half-past 3, assuming that you are still being asked intelligent questions. We will add on enough time at the end of the day to make up for the change to our programme.
May I welcome the National Crime Agency, the National Ballistics Intelligence Service, the National Police Chiefs Council lead for firearms and explosives licensing, and the Metropolitan Police? Perhaps, for the record, you would be kind enough to introduce yourselves.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Many thanks. Colleagues, who would like to take the lead on these matters? Minister, do you have questions of a useful nature?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q I do—thank you, Mr Gray. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Good afternoon, witnesses. The Bill contains a clause that relates to high-powered rifles. Could you please explain about what those rifles are, their range and their ability to penetrate protective clothing or other items?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Don’t worry. That musical guitar thing merely means that the Speaker in the main Chamber has changed. Why we do that I don’t know, but we always have done.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Let us break that down. You talked about distance, but are you able to give us a distance in terms of local landmarks, to help us understand how far these weapons can go?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q At the moment, how many licence holders are there?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q In the United Kingdom?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Where can these weapons be fired?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q We heard concerns on Second Reading that none of the rifles that are proposed to be prohibited has ever been used in a crime before. Can the panel help us with that?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q So, what is the risk and threat posed by these weapons, such that we should ban them?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q So, why is banning them the answer to that?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Moving on to the MARS weapons that are also in the Bill, could you please explain why we are seeking to prohibit those?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Q Could I ask a stupid question? What is MARS?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
I think the witness is about to explain.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Colleagues have voiced concerns about the potential impact this may have on disabled people. Can you help us with that point?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q To finish the section on firearms, we are also seeking to prohibit the possession of bump stocks. Could someone explain what bump stocks are and why we are seeking to prohibit their possession?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q There was an incident, sadly, in recent years where we saw the threat posed by bump stocks, was there not?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Can I just confirm something? When you said 129 licences, was that just for the .50, or was that the total number of licences?Q
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What percentage of firearms used in violent offences—for example, last year—were firearms that came from the legal to the illegal route?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q But none of the guns that have been stolen so far this year are those that will be prohibited by the Bill?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q And are most firearms stolen from domestic premises, which obviously have licensed conditions attached to them?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Mostly farms, is it? I mean, how does an offender know that a licensed firearm holder is in a property and that there is a firearm there?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q You might not be able to answer this, but how did a legal firearm end up in the hands of Thomas Mair?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q The MARS weapon has clearly been designed, as you say, to exploit loopholes in the current legislation. Is there any way that we could draft this legislation more widely to stop further exploitation happening, because—clearly—there will always be enterprising people who want to get round the very specific bans in legislation? Is there a risk that we are still keeping it too tight to allow further exploitation of loopholes?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I understand that 30% of the guns used last year in crimes were of obsolete calibre. Is there anything we can do to restrict the availability of decommissioned weapons, and is it of concern to you how available decommissioned weapons are and the ease with which they can be recommissioned?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q So how easy is it to get hold of an antique revolver at the moment?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q So how quickly and easily would I find it to purchase an antique revolver and get ammunition to be able to use it?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Could I get ammunition that easily as well?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
These questions are probably more for the detective chief superintendent. Can you give us some idea of the scale of firearms in the UK? How many people have firearms at the moment, and what are the trends? Is this going up; is it going downQ ?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Those are fascinating stats: there are far more firearms than I thought there would be in the UK. In terms of being a responsible firearm owner, what are the current requirements? If you have a firearm, what do you have to do to ensure that it is safe? What are the current rules?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q In practical terms, what does “secure” mean? Under lock and key?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q On Second Reading, my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) said that actually we do not need to ban these things; all we need to do is to enhance security and storage. Do you think that that is practical?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q What are the implications of breaching that certificate?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q What would that mean?
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
I want to probe a bit further on the use of antique guns. I was quite surprised that anyone can access one. In the Paul Edmunds case, which was very famous, he bought the guns, fitted them with ammunition and then passed them on to criminal gangs. What do you feel about his passing them on to, I think, 50 criminal gangs? Do you think the legislation around that is strong enough, and if not, what can we doQ ?
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Q Would you advocate that?
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Q Do you have any idea of the number of antique guns in circulation, or is that impossible to gauge?
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Q Would you advocate strengthening the legislation around that?
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Q To slightly shift my line of questioning, I am a London MP and I am aware that the number of criminal firearms offences per head is highest in London. Can you shed any light on why it is different in the capital from the rest of the country?
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Q Why is it different from the rest of the country? Firearm offences in London are the highest per head of population. I am curious to know why that statistic exists.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
IQ want to draw back slightly to the discussion about bump stocks. The example given was the Las Vegas shooting, but how many of those weapons used would have been lawful here? One of the issues in the United States is the pairing up of assault weaponry that is lawful there—unbelievably, quite bluntly—with bump stocks to make fully automatic assault weapons. How many of those weapons, given that the NCA evidence cites that incident, would have been legal here?
Also, do you think the definition in the law is drawn tightly enough? Clearly, bump stocks are being developed to get round the law on automatic weaponry in the United States and here. Do you think the definition is tight enough to prevent some sort of modification that has the same effect as the bump stock, but is not a bump stock?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Do you think the wording in the Bill is the best it could be in this area, or could it be sharpened to try and future-proof it?
Karin Smyth (Labour, Bristol South)
Slightly moving on, I have a particular interest in air guns, due to an incident in my constituency. Is there any information on the proportion of these sorts of weapons used around crimeQ s?
Karin Smyth (Labour, Bristol South)
Sorry, can you say that again? They do not require—
Karin Smyth (Labour, Bristol South)
Q Do you have a view about licensing?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Is there anything that you think should be included in the Bill to ensure that fewer guns are used in violence—gang violence, youth violence and so on? Is resourcing an issue for your different departments and areas? I have just been looking through the consultation document you submitted. What we have is quite vague, so I wonder whether you have more information to give us about thatQ .
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q So your feedback is that it might be useful to extend the Bill to cover all ammunition and other parts and components?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q Excuse my ignorance on that point, but somebody cannot have a firearm while they are going through those steps, can they?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q But in the case of reissuing, you can still have one until your certificate is reissued?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q Mr Lynn, would you like to add anything?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
I have a slightly non-technical, subjective question. How easy is it in your assessment to obtain a gun for criminal purposes in this countryQ ?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q This question is more about sentencing, which I do not know if you have a view on. We introduced a mandatory sentence for the possession of a gun. Do you think that has been successful?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q Do you think that the mandatory five years for possession has had an effect on reducing the number of guns available? Has it had that kind of an impact? Do we have evidence around that?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q There was reference made earlier to the licensing regime and the potential for prosecution for non-compliance. How many prosecutions were there last year for non-compliance on licensing conditions?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q And the reason for that?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Just to clarify the point that Mr Groothuis made in answers to Miss Foxcroft, you made the point about there not being a requirement to show ID or the licence when sharing shotgun cartridges. It is not uncommon when people are using their shotguns lawfully on a shoot, in accordance with their licence, that they might hand shotgun cartridges to each other as part of the shooting.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q So your concern is about volume as opposed to the act on the shoot of people handing cartridges to each other to help while they’re shooting.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Can just come back to the points about the firearms licensing teams in the police? How big is the team in Durham, for example?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Has that team shrunk in the past few years?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q From what to 10?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I think it was you, Detective Chief Superintendent, that said that there was already a lot of pressure on these teams. Does that pressure manifest itself just in longer waits for people wanting licences to get those licences? Or is there an increased risk of people who should not have licences retaining their licences or, indeed, of people gaining licences when they should not have them in the first place?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q In terms of serious violence, we often talk about preventative early intervention and so forth. Are there any early intervention or preventative measures that you think we could put into place that would help reduce the number of firearms in circulation?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q I have probably done quite a lot of work on this in terms of stuff with the Youth Violence Commission. Are there areas where you could have extra support and so forth, so that, rather than having to always be taking things out of circulation, you are actually getting in there early to make sure we do not end up with them there?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q Sorry, I am referring to the 70% of firearms that are legally in circulation, and whether or not there are ways and means of getting in there to ensure that they are not in circulation.
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Q I am talking about whether there is enough joined-up working with border agencies and so forth. I am not an expert in this area, which is why I am reaching out to you to see what you think.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Are you content, Vicky?
Vicky Foxcroft (Labour, Lewisham, Deptford)
Yes.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Unless there are further questions from other colleagues, let me say thank you very much to our panel. Your evidence has been extremely useful and will add a lot to the understanding and intelligence that the Committee applies to the Bill during its detailed consideration.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Thank you for your clarification—that is very useful. I thank you all very much for your evidence. The next panel are here, so I think we will crack on, if we may. I thank you for your efforts.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Q May I welcome our next witnesses, who come from the National Police Chiefs Council? Before I ask you to introduce yourselves, I want to let you know that at 3.30 pm strange bells will ring, which means there is a Division in the House. The Committee will be suspended for a quarter of an hour for one Division, or a quarter of an hour plus 10 minutes for each subsequent Division. There may be two or three, which could mean quite a long suspension. Do not be alarmed if the bells ring—it just means that we have to go and vote. Perhaps I could now ask you to introduce yourselves.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Good afternoon and thank you for joining us. My first question is to Deputy Assistant Commissioner Duncan Ball. Could you help us understand why we need to crack down on online sales of knives?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q To put those comments in context, could you give us an idea of the other things that the Metropolitan police and other constabularies across the country are doing, such as Operation Sceptre?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q Thank you. Assistant Chief Constable Kearton, could you help us with how these measures in the Bill will help you and your colleagues police the sale and use of corrosive substances in violent attacks?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q We obviously want to stop young people using acids in the first place. Are there any emerging thoughts on how we can prevent young people—or anyone—from using corrosive substances in such a vile manner?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What is your analysis of why, particularly over the last four years, we have seen such a rise in knife, gun and acid-related crime? Why is it suddenly so prevalent?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you have anything to add to that, Assistant Chief Constable? In particular, do you believe that neighbourhood policing is an important factor in tackling knife and acid crime?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q On online sales, I was recently shown some pictures from an app called Wish, which is a platform that enables sales from private sellers. There were prolific sales of items such as bracelets and credit cards that disguised knives. There were lots of different ways to conceal weapons, which were as cheap as 99p. Does the Bill sufficiently cover that app? My concern is that the Bill will wiggle around it, given that it is a platform, and that it will be very difficult to enforce the Bill against those who sell through such platforms.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Are there any offences that cover concealing a blade as something else—as a credit card or a bracelet, for example—or would that be covered by possession of a bladed article?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Would you support the locking up of knives in retail premises?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Clearly, whenever a person is injured with a gun or a knife or with acid, that is a horrible crime. The rise in acid attacks is Q shocking, because they tend to be disfiguring crimes—often to the face—that blind people and leave them scarred for life. You mentioned that there was a social acceptance of carrying knives. Is there a social acceptance of carrying acid now, or is that still not as acceptable?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q If the mindset of young people could be changed now, that could be timely, because often these things escalate and become more and more acceptable. Do you see that as an opportunity to effect results for the future?
Mary Robinson (Conservative, Cheadle)
Q Just to go back to the sales point, you are having conversations on this with the British Retail Consortium. I would like to know a little more about those conversations. Is there active discussion and consideration of limiting the strength of drain cleaner? Sulphuric acid can be produced in other ways, such as from powder or granules, which may be less easy to deal with. Is that being actively considered? Around those discussions, what activities will lead to changes?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I think there is about to be a Division. Stephen Timms, you may start, but I think you will be interrupted.
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
I want to ask you about the corrosive substance aspects of the Bill. I am a bit puzzled about why there are two different definitions of a corrosive substance in the Bill. One is the list in schedule 1 and the other is in clause 5, which defines it as something
“capable of burning…skin by corrosion”
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
If it is agreeable to the Committee, I think we should take another 10 minutes or so of evidence from our current panel—perhaps a quarter of an hour, depending on how it goes—and then move on to the third panel of the retailers, aiming to wrap up by 5 o’clock. There are more votes at 5 o’clock and I cannot see any point in going away for more votes and coming back. We will need to constrain ourselves a little bit in order to get dealt with by 5 o’clock.
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q I was asking about the two different ways in which the Bill defines corrosive substances. There is the list in schedule 1, and then clause 5(9) states,
“‘corrosive substance’ means a substance which is capable of burning human skin by corrosion”.
From a policing point of view and arresting people carrying out these crimes, which is the better definition for you to work with?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q Is the list in schedule 1 the right list? Are there things that you are aware of that are problematic and perhaps ought to be on the list, or does the list seem to you to be complete?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q A welcome aspect of the Bill is making it an offence to have a corrosive substance in a public place, just as, for a long time, it has been an offence to have a knife in a public place. The Bill also develops the offence that has been there for a while of having a knife in educational premises by extending it to further education. Do you think there ought to be a parallel offence around having acid in a school or educational premise? Would that be helpful to the police?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q In a sense, you could equally have a knife in a school for a perfectly legitimate purpose. I wonder whether there is an analogy between the two.
I would like to raise another issue. It struck me for a while that there is a bit of uncertainty about the number of acid attacks taking place because we have not focused very much on them. They have risen very suddenly over the last few years. The figure you gave us earlier sounded a little different from the figure that Mr Shah from the Acid Survivors Trust gave us. Can you tell us the state of play on producing reliable, accepted numbers on how many acid attacks there are?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
Q Are we going to see more systematic, reliable and accepted figures in this area in the future?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q I want to ask Commander Ball about sentencing for knife crime. To what extent do you think the threat of a mandatory sentence is important as a deterrent? Has that made a material difference to your ability to deal with the problem?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q Do you think, though, that robust sentencing, including the threat of a mandatory sentence, sends a strong signal that actually has an impact on behaviour?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q I want to ask you about clause 26, which changes the definition of an offence. Will that help you to get more convictions?
James Morris (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Q Clause 26 amends the existing offence of threatening with an offensive weapon in public. It changes the definition from
“in such a way that there is an immediate risk of serious physical harm to that other person”
to
“in such a way that a reasonable person…who was exposed to the same threat as”
the victim
“would think that there was an immediate risk of physical harm”.
In a sense, it defines that threat in a slightly broader way.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I can fit in two more before we wrap up at 4.30 pm.
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Assistant Chief Constable, we heard evidence this morning about how the Bill covers the sale of corrosive substances but not their supply. On the one hand, one witness expressed concern that you might have an adult purchase a corrosive substance on behalf of someone under 18 and not be guilty of any sort of criminal offence. On the other hand, another witness pointed out, as I think you did, that you would have to be very careful about criminalising perfectly innocent domestic circumstances. Do you have any views on how we can square that circle? Are other provisions already in place that would criminalise someone purchasing a corrosive substance on behalf of someone under 18Q ?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q This question is for you both. There are various obligations in the Bill on companies and businesses selling corrosive substances or bladed weapons remotely. Is there any risk that all their checks could be undermined if the delivery company is negligent or reckless? Is there enough in the Bill and existing legislation to ensure that delivery companies can be held accountable when they are careless or reckless about, for example, delivering a bladed weapon or corrosive substance to someone under 18?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q For example, you could have a delivery driver at the end of his final shift on a Friday who goes to a house and there is not anyone there who is 18 years old or over. So rather than going back to the depot and extending his shift by an hour, he decides to hand the delivery over. He is completely independent of the seller. Is there a loophole there that you are worried about?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q Any thoughts, Deputy Assistant Commissioner?
Stuart McDonald (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East)
Q You mention clause 18, which would create an offence if the deliverer of the product hands it to tm;1somebody under 18. As I understand it, that applies only where the seller is from outside the UK. Why not have some provision for where the sale occurs in the United Kingdom as well? Why is that not necessary?
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
I want a good half-hour to hear from retailers, so, very briefly and lastly, Stephen Morgan.
Stephen Morgan (Labour, Portsmouth South)
I will ask just one question because I am conscious that our good Chair wants to conclude this hearing. I am conscious that we have seen an increase in violent crime yet a fall in the number of police officers. What do you expect this Bill will look like in terms of success? What difference will it make, and what might it mean in terms of a reduction in crime?Q
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Thank you both for your extremely useful and interesting evidence, which will inform better the consideration of the balance of the Bill. We are grateful to you for it. I apologise for the long gap in the middle when we were voting, but that is democracy for you. I ask the next panel to come and join us.
James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)
Q As you arrange yourselves, I will explain that you are from the British Retail Consortium and the British Independent Retailers Association. May I ask you, starting with Mr Wynn, to introduce yourselves for the record?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q First of all, may I thank your different sets of members for signing up to the voluntary commitments to prevent the sale of corrosives to under-18s. Can you please tell the Committee how effective these voluntary commitments have been and what the response has been from staff members?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Q How are you going to work with your members if these voluntary arrangements become statutory?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you share the concerns of the USDAW trade union about the criminalisation of shop workers and shop owners? Do you agree there should be an offence for attempting to purchase weapons, and what implications will the offence on shop workers and shop owners have for your members?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What about a specific offence for attempting to purchase?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q In the last session, we heard from a senior police officer that they would welcome the locking away of knives in retail environments. We heard in a session this morning that a significant proportion of knives that end up being used in violent offences come from shoplifting. I assume that shoplifting has increasingly been an issue for your members in recent years. How would you feel about legislation around locking away knives in stores?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What proportion of your members subscribe to the voluntary agreement?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q On age verification, you mentioned in your submission that you would prefer some explicit guidance on exactly what kind of age verification tools your members should use online. Do you want to be dictated to about which age verification tools to use, or do you just want guidance about what kind of tests that age verification tool should meet?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Earlier, we were discussing the issue of what age should be set, and 18 was proposed. Do you see any issues for your retailers and members if there was a different age? I think we can say that it would not be under 18, but let us say 21 for the sake of argument.
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Do you see 18 as the optimum, given so many other things are at 18?
Kevin Foster (Conservative, Torbay)
Q Just to be clear though, challenge 25 means that if you look under 25, I will ask for your ID to see whether you are 18; it is not about being 25.
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Q Mr Wynn, you mentioned age verification and how the face-to-face encounter is more obvious. Which is the acceptable form of identification for retailers when they check age? In my experience of speaking to small businesses in my local area, there is a real challenge with fake IDs and what is an acceptable form of identification. If someone presents an international driving licence that states that they are the right age, sometimes a retailer will be forced to accept that, but a lot of those have turned out to be fake in the long run. Do you feel the legislation around that is strong? Do you feel like things need to be changed and that the acceptable form of identification needs to be dictated more strongly?