Ivory Bill
Public Bill Committee, 12 June 2018.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. Will people ensure that they switch electronic devices to silent? I remind Members that teas and coffees are not allowed during sittings.
We will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication, and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence session. I hope that we can take those motions formally, because we are a bit pressed for time.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I have been advised that the witness schedule on the Order Paper is incorrect. For the avoidance of doubt, the schedule in the order just agreed by the Committee is the correct one. We changed it slightly because of other events today, to ensure that the witnesses are dealt with appropriately.
The deadline for amendments to be considered at the first line-by-line sitting of the Committee was the rise of the House yesterday. The next deadline will be the rise of the House on Thursday for the Committee’s sitting a week today.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Examination of Witnesses
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
We will now hear evidence from the World Wide Fund for Nature, Born Free and the International Fund for Animal Welfare. Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings of the programme motion. Could the witnesses introduce themselves for the record and to check the sound?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Do you all feel that the scope of the Bill, about just elephant ivory, is broad enough? If we ban just elephant ivory, could there be a shift towards ivory and horn from other animals being targeted? If it is possible, should we broaden the scope of the Bill to prevent that from happening?Q
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
ThatQ is interesting because the Bill has been a long time coming and it is great that we have got this far. To knock it off course would be perverse. As we have not consulted on all the other species, would the best thing be to get the Bill through and then all of you who are experts could meet Ministers to decide which species—particulary non-CITES species—ought to be included so that we do not have other species coming on to the endangered list simply because activity has been displaced? I assume that you would all be happy to consult Ministers once the Bill is passed to get that done as soon as possible.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
It has taken a long time to get to the stage of introducing this Bill and I would think it will be a long time before the Government return to this issue. The figures you have given on other species are startling, and you say you want flexibility in the Bill to be able to amend it. Is there a way in which the Bill could allow for, perhaps, delegated legislation or some other way to revisit the issue without having to have an Ivory Bill mark 2, which could be quite a significant time down the roadQ ?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q We know the figures and the scale of the problem, so what would a consultation be aimed at trying to find out?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q I suspect that the trade in ivory that comes from those species is not anywhere near as established as that of elephant ivory in terms of antiques, piano keys and things like that. That trade would be concerned with elephant ivory.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q So I am not sure there needs to be so much discussion about trade when it comes to these other items. Where does the hippo ivory and narwhal ivory end up?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Why is it being traded? Is it medicines, or is it for ornaments?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Exemptions in the Bill are all for existing items—in the case of musical instruments it is pre-1975, and much earlier for antiques—so I do not quite understand why there would be a need to reconsider exemptions for items from other species, if you are saying they are being used now. I do not get the moral justification for there perhaps being a different case for items made of ivory from other species. Why is it not exactly the same case as for elephants? Perhaps Lisa can ask more coherently than me.
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
IQ understand the point: there might be a concern that if these other species are excluded from the Bill and they are an alternative to ivory, there could be a knock-on impact on those species. Would we be at risk of losing those species in the interim period?
Henry Smith (Conservative, Crawley)
In terms of how you believe this new policy, when law, will change the ivory trade, what do you believe the contrast will be with policy in other countries, most notably the policy in the United States and China? Do you think the law as it will be applied in the UK will have more or less of an impact? What results do you think this will have, when law, compared with other countries?Q
Alex Sobel (Labour/Co-operative, Leeds North West)
You are talking about other countries implementing bans; you have mentioned China, the USA and Taiwan. Are those bans elephant only, or do they cover other types of ivoryQ ?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
YouQ mentioned the upcoming conference in October, and said that, if passed, this Bill will put the UK in a global lead position. Of itself, what contribution would you assess that the Bill will make towards deterring poaching, and how much of that deterrent is contingent on other countries following suit in a similarly clear and robust way?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Are you convinced that sufficient resources are in place to ensure that the provisions in the Bill are full implemented? I am thinking particularly of the resources of the UK Government to make sure that British involvement in the trade can be haltedQ .
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Thank you for your contributions over many years, particularly through the consultations, which are much appreciated. Do you feel that you have had a chance to have your voices heard through the consultation process? I hope you have, but it would be interesting to hear that from you.
There has been some concern that the ban might lead to displacement to other countries, for example in the far east. You have addressed that to some extent in your comments. Can you reconfirm for the Committee that you believe that the ban will help and that the October conference could be an opportunity to start tackling concerns about displacement?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
You talked about cyber-dealing and cyber-trading, and I want to come back to that. As I understand it, there is a significant amount of trade over the internet. How can we enforce this effectively? Do you think that there should be additional measures, or do you think the Bill covers that sufficiently?Q
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
I want to return to the definitions under clauseQ 35 for a moment. We all share the desire to extend protection to as many species as possible. You can probably hear that there is some concern from Members about the speed with which we are doing that. Would it be right to say that your overriding concern today, in the context of the Bill, is to bring forward the protection for elephants as soon as possible? There is a real sense of urgency here.
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q Presumably, given the amount of work that has gone into preparing the Bill for this one species, if we have to go back and add more species to the Bill, we will therefore have to undertake all of that consultation work again with other bodies, which is going to delay the Bill. That is antithetical to what you are trying to achieve here, isn’t it?
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Yes, clause 35(2) would clearly allow the Secretary of State to bring forward delegated legislation. Can I focus on one other thing you said? That is to include ivory from an animal or species not, for the time being, covered by that subsection. You mentioned non-ivory-bearing species. Did you mean non-elephant?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
I was very struck, David, by the points you made about organised criminality and how the trade is currently undermining communities and Governments. What the Bill will do for us in the UK is great, but how can we ensure that the measures we take here get right through to communities? How can we support them in transitioning away from dependence on poaching? How can we ensure that there is no adverse impact on some of those local communities? Is there anything missing from the Bill, in terms of obligations on our Government, that would enable us to help communities through that transition, to tackle that organised criminality on the ground and to ensure that some of the most deprived communities in the world are not damaged?Q
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q You mentioned Hong Kong and the fact that China is implementing this measure quite strictly. You also mentioned mammoth. I understand that in Hong Kong ivory is being passed off as mammoth tusk. Obviously the mammoth are dead—we are never going to save the life of a mammoth—but should we consult on a ban on mammoth ivory as well as on those species that might become extinct as a result of not being included in the Bill? If in Hong Kong, or anywhere else, people can say, “It’s all right; this is a mammoth tusk,” and sell it, does that not create the loophole that those who want to make money are looking for?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q Let us come back to the scope of the meaning of ivory. You talked about there being a delay if anything is added in. Given that this is the Ivory Bill, not the Elephant Ivory Bill, and that the CITES list makes clear that there is concern about species beyond the elephant, why would there be a delay if you added in the species listed by CITES? The consultation allowed for discussion of other species that are badly affected by this issue, and you have the figures.
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q But if you were just looking at CITES species, you wouldn’t be including mammoth.
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q I am just talking about the Bill at the moment. It could be improved quickly by adding in the CITES species, as I know a number of people were suggesting. You could then consult and look at the non-CITES species and the issue of mammoths separately afterwards. My big concern is that you bring this in just for elephants and you very quickly see a shift. You could protect the other CITES species straightaway, without the need to go to consultation because of the nature of the Bill, being the Ivory Bill, if you see where I am coming from.
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q I have two very quick points. The first is, having looked at Wikipedia—that great source of authority and information, as we all know—mammoths are included in the elephantidae family. I am rather anxious that what we are trying to do here is to decommoditise the attractiveness of ivory in all its forms and types. Therefore, I wonder whether mammoth is actually covered within the Bill, as set out in clause 35(6).
The other thing, very briefly, is whether you have had a look at the enforcement regulations, as set out in later clauses of the Bill. Do you think they are about right, too lenient or top-heavy?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
May I ask you to be quite brief with your answers? I might be able to squeeze in one more question if we are quite rapid.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Luke, this might have to be the last question.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Do you think the Government should commit under clause 2 to publish an annual register of items exempted under the artistic, cultural or historic value exemption? Do you think that register should be made public to ensure that there is public confidence that this ban and any exemptions applied to it are fair?
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q Some of the species we have talked about extending this to are covered by the CITES appendix. Are narwhal, sperm whale, walrus and killer whale all in the appendix?
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q What about hippo?
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q You also mentioned hornbill, Mr Travers.
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q That is in the CITES list?
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q That is CITES appendix 1?
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q The hornbill is covered on that, and it is an ivory species, as opposed to something like rhino with an ivory-like feature, if that makes sense.
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q I am sorry, I may be being obtuse here, which is why I need your expertise. You say it is an ivory surrogate. Is it ivory in the same sense that elephant tusk is ivory?
Robert Courts (Conservative, Witney)
Q Are you satisfied the Bill will cover that in any event?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the allotted time. I thank the witnesses for their evidence.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
We will now hear oral evidence from Stop Ivory and the Tusk Trust. We have until 11.25 am for this panel. May I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q If the ban is purely on elephant ivory, do you think that will have a detrimental effect, with the trade being potentially pushed on to other species? What are your thoughts on that?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q I see your point on that, but we do not want to see, as a consequence of that, the increased killing of other species.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Going back to what I said to the previous panel about ivory tusk being traded as mammoth, which is quite legal and would be quite legal after this Bill came in, is that something that we should consult on? Clearly we will not save the life of a mammoth—they are all extinct—but would it continue to save the lives of elephants if we banned that? It is not on the CITES list that we have heard about, but do you think that such a measure would be helpful to prevent elephants from being targeted? If someone can legally pass a tusk off as mammoth tusk, it will not stop anything.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q I agree; it is important to get the Bill—albeit a very narrow one—through as quickly as we can to set an example, and then consult for further species. Are you aware of any other country that has expanded beyond elephant ivory, and included mammoth tusk and all the other CITES species as well as the ones that we have heard about today?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
So us doing something like that would set a further example to the world.
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q Some of the concerns we discussed, particularly with the first panel of witnesses, were about consultation and timeframes. I appreciate your point about losing momentum. Given that the only time we took previous action on ivory was in 1989, nearly 30 years ago, who knows how long it will be before we get another ivory Bill through? These things do not come along very often, and it could be several years. Is there not an opportunity here and now to broaden the scope as the Bill goes through? If the only barrier is consultation delay, is there anything in the consultation that we undertook for the Bill that would not apply to the other species? In amendment 8 we talk about broadening the scope to elephants, killer whales, narwhals, sperm whales and walrus. Is there anything in our consultation or in its outcome that would not apply to the species referred to in the amendment, and that would result in the concept of closing the markets not being relevant?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q I think a consensus is building between you and fellow witnesses, and indeed beyond the Bill Committee, about the desirability of extending the definition. I note your caveat about the importance of not delaying, given the pressing timetable of the October conference. My understanding is that clause 35(3), which sets out the statutory instruments process, could deal with that. Given a choice—I think the answer to this is yes—would you prefer the Bill to go through cleanly as printed and then to have an expeditious delivery of statutory instruments? My understanding is that the need to consult on the inclusion of species that have not been consulted on could lead to a judicial review, thereby delaying the passage of the Bill, its implantation and trying to achieve what we want. Is that broadly your understanding as well, or am I off-beam?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Q On clause 35(3)—I think it was Mr Travers who brought this up, but I could be wrong—in fact the word “only”, as contained in the measure, means that the regulations could be extended to cover
“an animal or species not for the time being covered by that subsection only if the animal or species is currently listed in an Appendix to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.”
Would you prefer to see that caveat deleted, given that there may very well be some species that we may wish to take out but because they are large in number—a warthog has been cited—are therefore not covered by CITES?
Simon Hoare (Conservative, North Dorset)
Thank you.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q I know that my colleagues want to focus a lot on scope. I do not think that you can judicially review an Act of Parliament—a piece of primary legislation—which is what this would be. You can only judicially review the act of a body or a decision of Government subsequent to that. So actually there is no threat of judicial review of this legislation, because of parliamentary sovereignty, so there would be no delay.
You talked a lot about the October conference and just how important that is for the overall global effort against this activity. How powerful would it be for the UK to have introduced by that point a ban not only on elephant ivory trade but on other ivory trade? If banning elephant ivory is going to be such a big moment, would it not be an even bigger and better moment—an even larger cause of celebration—if we were also able to show in October that we have banned the trade in hippo, walrus and whale ivory?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q If the ivory ban was extended to include ivory in the first sense, rather than just elephant ivory, would that trigger other countries to follow suit and create ivory bans, or to extend them to include walrus, sperm whale, narwhal and other species? They would effectively be cutting and pasting the legislation that the UK will pass, extending the protections from day one in other countries.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
We heard earlier that the price of elephant ivory had reduced from $2,200 to $450 a kilo. What has the impact been on ivory from other species? Do we know about thatQ ?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q How difficult is to differentiate between ivory from an elephant and ivory from another species?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q Could it be a risk that ivory from other species is passed off as something not from an elephant?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q As the Bill stands, do you feel that it will contribute significantly towards that?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q We asked a question earlier to check that witnesses felt that they have been involved in the consultation and engaged in the process. The other witnesses felt that they have been, but it is very important to hear that you have as well. I hope that is the case. We want to thank you for all your contributions to the process. We want to ensure that your voice has been heard, or that you at least feel that it has.
The other point I raised earlier, which has not been so fully examined with this panel, was displacement, and what more you think we could do to stop it as the focus on ivory moves to the far east—whether the October conference will help, or whether anything else could be done.
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q Do you have any concerns about the proposals on issuing replacement certificates? Will they allow duplicates to be circulated?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
What would you like to see?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q Stepping back from this a little, we know that, although the UK is showing global leadership on this matter, what will arguably move the dial most is what happens in huge markets such as China. To what extent are you able, at sub-governmental level so to speak, to reach out to counterparts in China to ensure that these measures dovetail with whatever is taking place in China, to ensure a truly global response that does not have loopholes?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q Let me return to the question of internet trading, which I understand is significant in this market. How can we enforce the ban effectively? Do you think the Bill already covers internet trading sufficiently, or are there more things we can do to ensure that we enforce the ban properly?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q Would you extend that to areas that are otherwise exempt?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q So you would like to see the Bill amended to reflect that?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q We have talked quite a bit about enforcement and implementation once the Bill is complete. There is so much potential for mis-selling and for misleading behaviour. We have talked about the internet. It is incredibly complicated. When this Bill becomes law, how fit is the judiciary to manage sentencing and stop this trade happening? Do we want guidelines attached to the Bill for the judiciary? Do we want training? What kind of sentencing do we need to stop it happening? I would be interested to get your thoughts on that.
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q Is that something we can learn from? Would it be relevant?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Returning to what you said about a ban on any sales online, would that apply just to pre-1918 items, and not to the exemptions for items with low ivory content? I am thinking particularly of musical instruments. At the moment there is an exemption for pre-1975 musical instruments. They are quite often bought and sold online. People buy guitars, for example, from online shops. Would you be happy for that to continue where the ivory is not a crucial part of the item but it happens to have ivory decoration, or an ivory mouthpiece, for example? I do not think many pianos are bought and sold online, but they can have ivory keys.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q I can see that it is an easier provision to put in the legislation, but we have the Musicians’ Union and others coming in this afternoon. They may well have something to say about it. Then there are people buying and selling their own instruments. I suspect that they probably would not have the slightest idea that the legislation existed in the first place.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Engagement at the Musicians’ Union level is one thing, but it is another thing if you are talking about someone who has a vintage guitar and decides to sell it. I used to live with someone who had about 20 vintage guitars and repaired them for a living, so I know how often he decided that he absolutely had to have yet another vintage guitar and sell one of the ones that he had.
Even in the future, I do not think that he would realise that there was a ban on him putting his guitar on eBay. I would not want people criminalised for doing something like that. You are not talking about people making huge amounts of money in the ivory trade; you are talking about somebody who just happens to have a product that has a bit of ivory in it. We will ask the Musicians’ Union what they think.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Are there any further questions? Okay. If there are no further questions, I thank our witnesses for their evidence.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
We will now hear oral evidence from the National Wildlife Crime Unit and the CITES Border Force team at Heathrow. We have until 2.15 pm for this third panel. The air conditioning does not appear to be working so well today, so if people want to take their jackets off, feel free to do so. For the record, will the witnesses introduce themselves?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
How do the two different roles that you have interact, and how do the two organisations work? How are your resources at the moment? Do you have sufficient resources should the Bill become law? Would you need any further training or resources, and what impact would that have on your current rolesQ 57?
Henry Smith (Conservative, Crawley)
There are other jurisdictions around the world where there have been ivory bans. What sort of best practice do you feel can be gleaned from those other places—the United States perhaps most notably? What lessons do you think we can learn and apply when this legislation is passed for the UKQ ?
Henry Smith (Conservative, Crawley)
Q May I ask a quick supplementary question, Mr Pritchard? Just to be clear, would it make both your jobs much easier, in terms of enforcement, if exceptions were kept to an absolute minimum?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
I would like to ask about the internet trade in ivory. I was interested in your points about the exemptions, because we heard from some witnesses this morning that having a blanket ban on internet trading in ivory would be helpful. Would that be helpful, from your perspectiveQ ?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q I am thinking of internet sales. The suggestion was that if we just said, “You don’t trade ivory online,” that might be easier to enforce.
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q On the wider issue of enforcement, do you think the Bill covers the internet trade sufficiently?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q Do you think there are measures that could be added to the Bill that would help with enforcement?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
You have already explained that the UK Border Force is globally recognised, particularly around the illegal wildlife trade. Have the practices used by the UK Border Force been adopted by other countries around the worldQ ?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q How do you identify the difference between elephant ivory and any other ivory?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q It sounds as if raw ivory—if that is how we might term it—is easier to identify, but once it has been crafted into an object, does that become much more difficult?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
The work you are doing is so very important, but I am wondering whether the National Wildlife Crime Unit has any indication of continued funding beyond 2020. When will you know whether funding will continueQ ?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q In terms of the Bill, how important is it that that funding is put in place so that you can achieve the necessary long-term plans?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q Do you have any comments on the importance of that?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q But you said you work in partnership.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
IQ have a question for each of you. Chief inspector, you talked about this maybe not being seen as that important by some officers, because they obviously have lots of other things to do. What is the smallest artefact that you might have dealt with, and what is the largest—to give us an idea of the range of things that you do?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q But you said that you do intercept stuff, that you look on eBay and that there are 1,400 things that you have not got time to look at. What would be the smallest that you would—and I do not mean this as a criticism—bother with?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Mr Miller, you said it was quite easy to detect mammoth compared with elephant ivory. We were looking this morning at whether we get this narrow Bill as quickly as we can and then widen the numbers of animals—that includes mammoth ivory—beyond the CITES regulations. If you are only looking at CITES, and we then passed a Bill with other things in the future, where we added in animals that are not on your list, such as warthog and mammoth—that is not going to save a mammoth’s life, but it will stop people in places such as Hong Kong selling ivory as mammoth to get it through customs—would your brief be able to encompass that? Would you be able to encompass that if we widened the brief beyond CITES, or are you strictly CITES-only?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q It would not be a problem if we widened it out.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
That’s interesting. Thank you.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
May I just return to what the chief inspector was saying about how to prove if somebody knows it is ivory, particularly if it has been misdescribed. We have discussed in the past adding something around misrepresentation of an item to clause 1 to cover selling something that has been fraudulently mislabelled so as to avoid detection. Presumably, you would still then have the difficulty of proving that somebody had misrepresented it—that somebody knew it was not bovine bone or whatever.Q
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Adding a provision that covers mislabelling does not get us very far, unless you have absolute liability in terms of buying and selling.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Bovine bone does not sound particularly appealing if you are buying something of ornamental value. Is it very well known within the business that it really is ivory?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Absolutely, but it is very difficult to show that.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q You are not going to catch those people on the mislabelling; they have to have absolute liability and the burden of proof is on them. That is the only way you will catch those people.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q As you said, you police this by starting with a ticking off. If somebody genuinely thought, “That looks pretty,” and bought something on eBay without thinking of or knowing the consequences, you will not come down hard on such people, will you? It will be the people who you know to be in the business.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q If the burden of the proof was on the person buying or selling, you would not end up criminalising lots of people who are just buying things innocently, because you could be trusted not to go steaming in with armed police officers.
Alex Sobel (Labour/Co-operative, Leeds North West)
To come back to Lisa’s lines of questioning, the future of the National Wildlife Crime Unit is uncertain—it could close in March 2020. What would the implication be for the enforcement of the measures in the Bill as it stands if the funding were discontinued? What pressure would that put on Border Force and how would the police deal with the Bill?Q
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
We have heard a lot today that this is an international crime that crosses many borders. How do you operate with police forces and other border organisations around the world? Will the Bill support you in doing that? How much of an impact will your lack of resource have on your ability to work with those throughout the market around the world?Q
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q Are you reliant on the ability of forces abroad to provide you with evidence so you can bring these offences to prosecution?
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
Order. The microphones seem a little low today, and some colleagues are saying it is difficult to hear. May I encourage everybody to project and to articulate clearly? I am sure that will not be a problem for colleagues. A little louder, please.
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q Apologies—I have my back to colleagues when I am facing this way. My final question is a very practical one. How many members of staff do you have in your teams, and how many cases have you taken through in the past year?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
I think people watching this at home will be utterly amazed that there are only 10 and 12 people in your organisations fighting this, given the huge impact you are having, and that the funding for such small organisations after 2020 is still in doubt. I want to ask a question about how you are going to work with the regulator on this, but an awful lot of people will be amazed at the work you do, so I want to thank you for that.Q
The Government have said that the Office for Product Safety and Standards will be the responsible regulator. How do you see your respective organisations interacting with that new regulator in this respect?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q On that point, one of the areas the Bill Committee is looking at is whether the scope should include elephant ivory or just ivory. When it comes to your enforcement activities, if the scope were to include other forms of ivory—walrus, narwhal, sperm whale, and such types—does that fundamentally change the quantum of the task that you and the new regulator have to carry out? Is it a huge amount of work? How would you categorise the additional activities that extending the scope would mean for your work?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q I want to come back to the internet because it is a big challenge. Assuming the Bill goes through, and I see no reason why it should not, the situation will only get worse with illegal trade on the internet. We had a quick look on eBay and the number of items that just pop up is staggering. As you said, the descriptions were “bovine bone”, “ivory coloured”, “resin” and all sorts of things. When you look at them, I would worry that they were really ivory.
I do not know how we tackle this. This may sound naïve, but I do not know the answers. Do you have the ability to do “stop and search” random checks on items being sold from eBay, for example? Is that something that the police can do? If you looked at something and thought it was ivory, would you have the power to go in and check it?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q With that in mind, would it be useful to have some sort of legal responsibility on website owners to ensure to the best of their ability that they were not selling illegal products? Is that a possibility? I am trying to think about ways in which we could potentially tackle this.
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q Could that be made stronger to enable you to do your job better?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q Does eBay have some sort of contract with its sellers to say that sellers should confirm that what they are selling is not illegal? I do not know. I am just chucking out questions.
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q I wonder if that is something you could look into. Where do you put the burden of proof? Is it possible to get internet sellers to sign up to a contract?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Thank you, I am just chucking out thoughts.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q I join members of the Committee in thanking you and your teams for the work you are doing and also for the way in which you are leveraging the rest of the Border Force or the wider police force available to tackle this crime—we are very grateful.
To go back to the regulator for a minute though, do you both agree that having the regulator in place will help you with your work, because it will help to raise awareness of the new regime that will come into place, and because it will work with the antiques sector and musicians to help to improve compliance and assess compliance in future? Would that help you with your work?
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence and we will move on to the next panel.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
We will now hear oral evidence from the British Art Market Federation, the British Antique Dealers Association, Philip Mould and Company, the Music Industries Association and the Musicians Union. We have until 3 pm for this fourth panel. I invite the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I call David Webster first.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
Thank you very much indeed, and congratulations to Mr Dodgson’s organisation. May I ask any Members who have a declaration of interest to make to do so now publicly, please?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
I received a donation from the Musicians Union at the last general election and the previous one. I want to put that on the record—it has been declared in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
I also received a donation from the Musicians Union at the last election.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
Okay, thank you; that is on the record. Let us move on to questions.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
I have a question for Emma RutherfordQ . This morning we heard that the size of miniatures should be specified, because a miniature in one person’s eyes might not be a miniature in another’s. Do you have any strong feelings about that—about whether we should specify and, if we did, about what the specification should be? I have a further question for someone else, but I ask that one first.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Does talk of 6 inches by 8 inches include the framing, or is that simply the actual miniature without the frame?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Yes. For the two musicians, Paul and David—I don’t know this—are musical instruments still produced with ivory in? Obviously, there is old ivory in musical instruments. Some very valuable musical instruments have ivory in, and I am sure that there must be bows used for violins or cellos that contain ivory, but they will be old ones—
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
There would be no new instruments with any ivory content, would there? When did that stop?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q That is very useful to know. In terms of the antique ones, clearly the musicians will value them because they are used to them and have a special feel for them. We have been looking at the exemptions, and is not the most important thing that musicians should be able to continue to use them, if not necessarily to sell them? Surely, it should be very specific exemptions for particularly fine instruments that are verifiably that old—they should be very specific and of particular value, rather than just anything over 100 years old.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q What sort of figure are we talking about?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
In terms of what they would pay.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Can you give me an example of something that would be hundreds of thousands?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Would they have ivory in them?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q They can gift it.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
Before I call Liz Twist, I want to say that members of the panel should contribute, even if you are not addressed by name, if you wish to. We can make this more interactive. If your contribution is relevant to the organisation you represent, feel free to make it.
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q I want to address my questions to the musicians on the panel. I should declare that there is a regional interest with Northumbrian pipers in the north-east. I am asking for your observations on how Northumbrian pipers might be affected. As I understand it, they use ivory for the construction of the pipes. How might the Bill affect pipes that have been made legitimately under existing regulations but might be caught out by the sale problem? I would welcome your observations.
Henry Smith (Conservative, Crawley)
Q This question is directed to the antiques sector and the music sector represented here. How many of the items that are sold go directly to the far east?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q The Bill refers exclusively and specifically to elephant ivory. What would be the impact, if any, on any of your organisations or your processes if that definition were broadened to be elephant, killer whale, narwhal, sperm whale or walrus ivory? I will start with the antiques industry first, if I may.
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
May I address this, please, toQ Mark Dodgson and Anthony Browne? I think that some people have raised concerns about the fact that the accredited civilian officers in clause 17 are, at present, entitled to some quite swingeing powers to enter premises, search, check and all that sort of thing. Do you have any concerns about the scope and nature of those powers?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
Q The point is that it is not entirely clear in the legislation who these accredited civilian officers would be, where they would be drawn from and what their qualifications would be.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
For the record, anyone, including distinguished members of the panel, can continue to submit written evidence through the parliamentary website with a reference to this Bill.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q If I may ask the musicians, my understanding is that you are both happy with the provision as drafted in the Bill. I know there were lots of discussions with the Department beforehand, so you are happy with it. Paul, you said there were two tranches of ivory bans—1975 and 1989—and you are happy the instruments between 1975 and 1989 are not included.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q That is good of you. Can I ask about the registration requirements, which I had not quite cottoned on to? Owners of instruments would have to register them, under clause 10. If they sell the instrument on, the registration does not follow the item; the new owner has to register it. I can see that if you own a Stradivarius that is worth a fortune, you are aware of things like that. You are a professional, and that is all part and parcel of it. You have managers and agents, and all sorts of things. If you are just somebody buying and selling a guitar that you might not even realise has a bit of ivory in it, how is that going to work for the guy—sorry, or woman—who has had the guitar sitting in the corner of their room for a long time?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Especially if the provision applies only if less than 20% of the product is ivory. It is not like having an ornament that is made of ivory, where you have it in your mind that it is an ivory product. If a little bit of an instrument—
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
You would think a light would go on in the head with a piano, because everyone knows that the keys are made of ivory. As David mentioned, if you have a smaller instrument in which a tiny bit of the bow is made of ivory, the issue is how that is even flagged up.
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Do we know how much the fee would be? Has that been discussed?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
No ballpark fee?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q One of the witnesses this morning was pushing for a ban on all online sales of ivory instruments, on the grounds that people need to see them to know what they are getting. Would that cause a problem?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q Presumably there are not that many of these instruments around, so the chances are that they are going to be a long way from where the musician who is buying is located.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q I feel that I should declare an interest as a pianist and the owner of a piano that may or may not have ivory keys—I have been doing some research, and they are not solid ivory keys but wooden keys with potentially ivory coating. This brings me to my question. You said that you believe that a 20% de minimis threshold would cover most commonly played and traded instruments, but what proportion would not be covered by this 20% of musical instruments?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
What about post-1947 musical instruments with more than 20% ivory?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q Is there any danger that the ivory from musical instruments could be collected and used in some way to make another object?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q I understand that the instrument would be sacrificed, but could you imagine a market where people took the very small proportion of ivory from instruments to craft an object?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q Do you have any concerns—we heard some this morning—about proposals to issue replacement certificates? Could that allow duplicates to be circulated in the system? How could we strengthen the system in that regard?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
In terms of the documentation?
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
We heard concerns about duplicate certificates. Is that not something that—
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
Q I understand that, but if you can get an extra one for losing one, is there potential for extra ones to arrive in the system somewhere?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q I was going to ask whether any of you have concerns about the de minimis requirement—whether we need further clarification of that, whether you had looked at how the volume of ivory is measured, and whether the Secretary of State should set the measurement. Do you measure it now, and is there is a best practice way of doing it? We do not want items to be calculated slightly wrongly and to fall into the criminal section just because there are different ways of measuring volume. I just want to hear your thoughts about that.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
Order. Although this sitting is being televised, it is not particularly regular for Hansard to have to describe artefacts. Given that this is perhaps a unique circumstance, could you briefly describe it for the record?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Thank you for your contributions today and for engaging so fully with the consultation. The EU is currently conducting its own consultation on banning ivory sales, and we expect to hear the results of that soon. Do you agree that it is right for the UK to have pressed ahead with its own approach first? What sense do you have from colleagues you work with in Europe about what they think the outcome of the EU consultation could be?
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
As there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. We will now move on to the next panel.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
We will now hear evidence from the British Museum and the Victoria and Albert Museum. We have until 3.45 pm for this session. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves, for the record?
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
Do any Members have a declaration of interest, before we start?
Alex Chalk (Conservative, Cheltenham)
I am a museum member.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
That is on the record.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q We have heard from a lot of people about the ivory trade today and the Bill, which is very narrow. For a number of years I have been advocating that, if we have the ban, which hopefully we will, some specific organisation should verify artefacts as being internationally significant. Do you feel that you are sufficiently qualified to do this job? Clearly, we will look to your organisations and perhaps some others to ensure that we are not just allowing trade in any old rubbish, but that artefacts are very significant. Do you feel sufficiently qualified to do that?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q How would you fund that? If people came to you with their particular pieces of ivory, or ivory as part of something, how would you fund that? There would be a cost to you. Would you think of charging whoever it is that wants it?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
Q There are specific exemptions in clause 9 about acquisitions by qualifying museums, which you obviously are, which mean that you would be exempt from the prohibition. Could you give an example of where you might need to rely on that exemption for products that are not already covered by the exemption certificate? Am I right in my understanding that the normal prohibition is that it has got to be pre-1918, and has to have a certificate that it is of outstandingly high artistic, cultural or historical significance, but there are some exemptions if a museum is involved? What sort of product would be likely not to qualify for the exemption certificate, but be something that you would want to buy or sell?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
What about acquisition?
Kerry McCarthy (Labour, Bristol East)
That is interesting. Thank you.
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q There is obviously talk about prescribed institutions and qualifying museums and there has also been talk of a register of exempted items. The Secretary of State will keep a list of those registered or qualifying museums and prescribed institutions. If an institution is found to have been breaking the law, how do you see that being managed within your industry? Should the Secretary of State be able to take them off the register? Should further criminal action be taken? How would the industry look at policing itself within that category?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q So would that be the most sensible way to go forward be to bring the legislation into the Arts Council accreditation system?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q Would that cover galleries as well? Does the Arts Council accredit galleries? Yes, they are nodding at the back. Thank you very much.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q Do you have any concerns about differences of opinion between the expert assessors in assessing whether something would be exempt or not?
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Yes.
Trudy Harrison (Conservative, Copeland)
Q Do you feel that the classifications are clear enough for there to be a unity of assessment?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Q I want to draw your attention to the exemption under items of high artistic, cultural or historical value in clause 2. Do you think that definition is robust enough? As experts, are you confident that you have the criteria for that definition, given that you may be asked to give advice to the Secretary of State on passing an exemption?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
Q I want to ask about prescribed institutions. Is clause 2(5), on the use of prescribed institutions, tight enough as a definition? If not, would you suggest anything to tighten it?
Liz Twist (Labour, Blaydon)
To give a greater degree of clarity about what would be appropriate.
Alex Sobel (Labour/Co-operative, Leeds North West)
Q To follow on from Trudy’s and Anna’s questions, we heard a lot from the previous panel about ivory content and the de minimis rules in terms of different items. How do you think that content level will be measured, and how will that take place?
Alex Sobel (Labour/Co-operative, Leeds North West)
Q Would the conservation experts be able to provide written evidence for that? We have not got the detail.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Can you tell me what you feel the situation would be for sales to overseas museums in the future if the measure goes through? The International Council of Museums is not an accreditation body in the same way as the Arts Council scheme in the UK, so how do feel that that could be relied on to give the right information?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Does it not happen currently, or are they more loans that you give, rather than sales?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q You would never sell anything to another museum.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Why is that?
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q So that the public can see that you are doing it, rather than it being a private sale.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Right, I can understand that. Mr Misquitta, you wanted the opportunity to say something about loans.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q Surely, if you are not selling it—if you are only loaning it to someone—there should not be a problem. It is the sale of things containing or wholly made of ivory that is the problem.
Pauline Latham (Conservative, Mid Derbyshire)
Q I am sure that is something the Minister will look at.
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Subsection (5) of clause 9, which deals with acquisitions by qualifying museums, provides that
“‘ivory item’ means—
(a) an item made of ivory, or
(b) an item that has ivory in it,
but does not include an item consisting only of unworked ivory”.
Can you help me understand how many of your collections include unworked ivory in this respect? Do you think that exemption is appropriate, or does it actually cover a much larger section of items in museum collections?
Luke Pollard (Labour/Co-operative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)
Q Given that we hope that the trade in ivory will come to an end and that there will be less ivory available, might there be a greater desire among museums to have pieces of unworked ivory to demonstrate a historical connection, be it good or bad, with a region, an industry or a time period?
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q Thank you very much for your contributions today and to the consultation. Thank you in advance for the work you will do to make this come into effect with these very small exemptions. You have given Committee members a lot of assurance today, and you have explained your expertise and your confidence that you can use the criteria to determine the genuinely rare and most important objects. Can you help us understand better what that means, in terms of the likely volumes? On Second Reading, concerns were raised across the House about whether the regulations are tight enough. Can you help us understand what the likely volumes will be for these rare and very important items? By definition, I think we all assume that the quantities will be small, but it will be useful for you to say that, as experts, rather than for us to assume that.
David Rutley (Conservative, Macclesfield)
Q You have done a lot of work to explain that museums do not get involved in a huge number of sales, and perhaps get involved in a very small number of purchases. What I was talking about—I should have been clearer—was the rare and most important items that you and institutions like you help to certify. Do you anticipate large volumes or small volumes? What volumes do you think will qualify under the definition of rare and most important?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Q Earlier, you were talking about resources—there is obviously a certain amount of work that comes with this. You are clearly very large institutions, and you have a broad range of specialists and experts within your museums. What might the impact be on smaller museums that do not have such access to specialists? Will there be a cost implication for them?
Sue Hayman (Labour, Workington)
Thank you. That is very helpful.
Mark Pritchard (Conservative, The Wrekin)
If there are no further questions from Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence today.