Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill
Public Bill Committee, 31 October 2017.
Examination of Witnesses
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
This is a question about insurance, but it is open to any of the witnesses to answer. When automated vehicles and conventional vehicles share our roads, will questions of who is liable for accidents become more complicatedQ ?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Should the Bill actually specify what information should be retained and recorded?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Will vehicles continue to record driver performance, for instance, and collect data when it transitions to being driven manually?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Can I ask about the transition from an automated vehicle to manual? There is a time lag; research has been done into that. At what point is the driver responsible, therefore becoming the insured party, during the transition from automated vehicle to the driver taking over?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q You started your answer by saying, “In my view,” and that suggests that there are other views.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q So in all the data we collect it is possible to pinpoint the moment when the car transitions from manual to automated and back again.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q I have one last question. If you have all your data from an accident from the software in the vehicle, which tells you that the vehicle performed perfectly, but there was an accident with a driver who is driving the vehicle manually, is the assumption from the insurance company that you are not going to pay out because everything functioned perfectly with the machine?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Ben, some of us have obviously been round this track before with the previous incarnation of the Bill, and you will know that since then we have made some changes to it. One of the changes was the agreement to define a list of automated vehicles to create clarity. One of the criticisms of the earlier incarnation of the Bill was that that was not clear enough. Do you think we have made progress there?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
May I ask another, Chairman? Would that be allowed?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
I do not want to hog the questioning.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q I take that as read, Chairman. There was a lot of debate on Second Reading about the possible safety benefits of automated vehicles, and questions were asked about what that meant for insurance premiums, for example. What is your view on that? Clearly it is early days, but do you anticipate that safer vehicles will lead to easier insurance and lower premiums?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q So the legislation is welcomed by the industry.
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Off the back of the Minister’s question, clause 1(1) defines “autonomous”, or rather the vehicles that could be classed as “safely driving themselves”. That does not seem very tight to me. Does the definition not need to be tighter? Does it not give the Secretary of State an awful lot of power? I do not know whether you have a copy of the Bill in front of you. Clause 1(1) states that autonomous vehiclesQ
“are in the Secretary of State’s opinion designed or adapted to be capable, in at least some circumstances or situations, of safely driving themselves.”
The clause allows the Secretary of State to come up with a list of vehicles that he or she thinks are capable of being driven safely without being operated manually at all. The definition does not seem tight to me.
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q Thank you very much for that answer. Clause 4 describes vehicle software updates. It concerns me that—if this is a vehicle that is completely autonomous—the onus is put on the passenger, if you will, to update the software. They have to agree manually to update software. Is that the right position? Should it not be automatically updated?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q Finally, while I have you here, the current situation for vehicle insurance is driver-centric. The driver of the vehicle is the insured person. The Bill provides for a situation where the vehicle is insured. Is that definitely the way we should be going? Should there be some more provisions?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q What would happen with an uninsured vehicle, then? At the moment, the Motor Insurers Bureau compensation scheme kicks in. Would that apply to automated vehicles? If not, should that be stated in the Bill?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I would like to follow up on Mr Turner’s point about clause 4 and the respective obligations of the manufacturer and the driver to update software. Clause 4(1)(b) refers toQ
“updates that the insured person knows, or ought reasonably to know, are safety-critical.”
That strikes me as very woolly. I would be grateful for your opinion on where the balance should lie. I accept that if someone has wilfully not installed updates or overwritten them, or something, they become liable. However, if the manufacturer has sent through an update, but the person has not taken it to the garage or downloaded the software—or whatever—at what point do they become liable? I have an update waiting for my iPhone, but I have not got round to doing it. That is not safety-critical, but is there a parallel? Do we need a tighter definition than “ought reasonably to know”?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Q Forgive me, but I am not clear how these updates would actually happen—whether you would have to take the vehicle into a dealership or garage.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Q If you were rushing out of the house at 9 o’clock and you got an email from the manufacturer that said, “Version 1.7 is now available and you need to install it”, and you thought, “I’m running late for a meeting—I’ll do it at the end of the day”, would that fall foul?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Q If the upgrade is so safety-critical that the car will not function without it having been installed, is that something we should put in the Bill?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
I am interested in the collection, retention and distribution of data and also the issue that has just been raised by my colleagues about the software prescription; whether it will be prescribed that software must be updated and all the problems that might ensue from thatQ .
Let me lay out an example and ask your view of the Bill. If somebody switches to manual from automated and is involved in an accident while in excess of 30 miles per hour. What happens next? How much of that data becomes available in the case that ensues? For instance, I presume that speed would be used, but what about the on-board cameras or anything else? How much of this data will be kept, retained and used from the functions of the vehicle for a case in which there is an accident with a driver in manual mode? Does the Bill provide a robust framework for accidents and insurance claims and what about road safety? Will it enhance road safety or are we stopping at legitimate information for insurance companies? Should the Bill also include data made available so that road safety is improved?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Q I am interested in your final comment that there needs to be discussion about what data are kept—perhaps the Bill does not go into that in detail. Road safety is important, and some of the data could be used to improve it. I have concerns, therefore, and I ask the question again that you partially answered: does the Bill provide a robust framework for improved road safety through data retention, collection and distribution, particularly with insurance companies? You answered by saying that perhaps it does not, but I wonder what the other two think.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
If we have time.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
MyQ first question requires just a yes or no answer, and I am interested to know whether the answer is the same from all of you. As has been mentioned, in clause 2(1)(b) there is a reference to the vehicle being insured, which is a new concept, and at the end of clause 2(1), as David Williams said, strict liability of the insurer is established. Do you read that combination as meaning that strict liability attaches to the insurer of the vehicle?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q My second question: do you agree that it is perfectly possible that the person who is the passenger/driver, who is in the vehicle, might have a different insurer?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q No, but it could happen.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q I understand that logic, but if I have understood you, both of you are accepting that the driver/passenger—the person—could have a different insurer.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Indeed. My third question: do you accept that strict liability would operate for the insurer of the vehicle, even if the driver had inappropriately transferred control of the vehicle to the vehicle?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Yes, so the driver is sitting there driving the vehicle, and he does whatever it is that you do to switch it to automated use, but does so under inappropriate circumstances. Do you accept that under clause 2(1), as it is written at the moment, strict liability would nevertheless attach to the insurer of the vehicle and not to the insurer of the driver?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q No, I am assuming that it has had the opportunity to take control.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
It has taken control, so strict liability attaches to the—
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q But if I have understood you, that would entirely rely on whether, as a matter of fact, the technology had that effect. In other words, there is nothing in the Bill to prevent that situation.
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
IfQ we go back to control of data, Ben, you said that more clarity is needed on what data will be kept and shared. David, you said that the Bill does not look like a robust enough framework, but that you would not want it to be held up. Surely if it is believed that the Bill does not provide a robust enough framework we should look at making amendments, rather than holding the Bill up. Are there amendments that we as parliamentarians should consider?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q The hon. Member for Hyndburn has talked about safety in relation to these projects looking at data protocols. Should that also encompass looking at safety and how the car was being driven or controlled, whether manually or in automatic mode? It has been said that insurance companies would only want data in the event of a collision, but it would be very tempting for insurance companies to want a lot more data. Even now, you can get an insurance policy for young drivers that involves fitting a black box into the car. The insurance company is obviously monitoring the operation of that car to keep the premiums down. Surely there is temptation to want more data and to do more. It may seem hypothetical, but if you use the internet then your history is used as an advertising and promotion tool. Therefore should there not be strict controls in terms of data control in the future, so that the data are not used?
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
IQ declare an interest as chair of the all-party group on insurance and financial services. I would like to pick up on two points. Coming back to data: obviously, claims prices hinge on the quick sharing of data. In order to pay a claim, it will be necessary to know whether or not the car was in automated mode. Are there any current technical barriers between insurers and manufacturers that are going to delay that? Are there issues that you foresee causing problems?
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
Q May I make just one quick point? I echo some of the concerns colleagues have raised about clause 4(4)(b). The Bill talks about the damage suffered by an insured person arising from an accident occurring as a direct result of failure to install safety-critical updates. How would it be assessed whether the accident was a result of an installation not being made? Who would resolve those disputes? Can you see any problems around the insured potentially not seeing it as being a contributory factor to the accident? How would those disputes be resolved?
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
Q Would you envisage disputes going through the same channels as they currently do for disputes on liability?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
I have a very quick question, following on, I think, from the answers that were given to the Minister’s question, in which you all said you anticipated that, if this goes to plan, it will see safer vehicles and therefore a reduction in accidents, leading to a reduction in premiums, which is clearly a positive for all those paying them. What assessment has been made, or what is your view of, any likely impact of that on the insurance market and industry? As I understand it, car and vehicle insurance premiums to a degree underwrite other insurance policies across the industry—that is the way it is structured. What impact do you think significant reductions in premiums would have in terms of disruption of the insurance marketQ ?
Scott Mann (Conservative, North Cornwall)
According to some of the figures I have seen, 63% of the adult population hold a valid driving licence, so by definition 37% of people currently do not. Of the 63% who do, many are precluded from driving because of health conditions or because they have lost confidence behind the wheel. My question is, first, do you think that this Bill will increase social mobility? Secondly, do you think it will increase car insurance volumes in your marketplace? Thirdly, you mentioned to my colleague that premiums will be lower for automated vehicles, Q so I want to seek reassurances about whether you think the Bill will reduce premiums for people who have mobility problems.
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
So what you are saying is that if the owner of a vehicle that is capable of being fully automated updates his or her software, has a vehicle with no warning lights displaying that there is something wrong and uses the vehicle in fully automatic mode in circumstances where it is proper to do so, there should be no liability on the owner, who is actually travelling as a passengerQ ?
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q So you are saying that in a scenario where a vehicle is in fully automated mode on a smart motorway, the Highways Agency suddenly drops the speed limit from 70 to 50 and the car in automated mode is slow enough in responding to be clocked by a police speed camera on a bridge, in those circumstances, the insurers of the vehicle should pay the speeding fine?
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q Why?
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q But surely the passenger cannot be held responsible if he is relying on the car to drive him safely to his destination.
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q But you agree that it would be wholly unjust for the passenger in those circumstances to have his licence endorsed and be fined when he is relying on the vehicle, which is slow to respond?
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q So do you think it is fair in those circumstances that the passenger gets a fine?
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q As far as the data are concerned, you are saying, I think, that you would prefer clarity. You would prefer some rules to be laid down about what data should be kept and who has access to them. Is that right?
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q Rather than a free-for-all before the courts, with the court deciding in each case who gets what.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Mr Parry, following on from the questions from the right hon. Member for West Dorset, can you clarify how the vehicle knows when it is not appropriate to be in automated mode and therefore prevents the driver from flipping over to that?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q So the vehicle is constantly taking in data on its environment—the surrounding area—and therefore is switching itself off, making it impossible for the driver to switch over to automated mode.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Let me ask about transition, because the studies in Bristol suggested that vehicles slowed down significantly after the transition from automated mode to driver mode, because the driver was being excessively cautious or very cautious, which can lead to more dangerous circumstances. Is that an issue for insurers?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q As insurance premiums come down, as predicted, in the future, is there a concern or risk that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will increase the Government’s take from insurance premiums, so that all the savings are not passed on to the driver?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q You talked, in relation to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall about people who are disadvantaged not currently being able to access transport and so on, and subsequently, in answer to the question from the hon. Member for Eltham, dealt with predictable, standard routes. Where an autonomous vehicle is acting more like a bus in effect—it is on a standard journey—presumably it will be particularly appealing to those who currently cannot access transport of their own, because it will be, as you put it, in straightforward mode; even in a straightforward mode, many people currently cannot drive a car, because a visual impairment or a disability prevents their doing so. Is that a future you envisage?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Precisely. A journey to a hospital where there is not currently a bus route would be a good example.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q I do not know if I need to declare an interest: I am a member of Unite and the GMB. When automated and conventional vehicles share our roads, will questions of who is liable for accidents become more complicated?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q So should the Bill address those issues more directly and in more detail?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q We have just heard from insurance companies that for many years to come automated vehicles will not operate in many areas but mainly on major routes such as smart motorways, which clearly has an implication for people who drive long distances. There is the issue about transition from being automated to manual and vice versa. Is that an issue of concern for you and the people you represent: the delays in transition and the impact that taking over a vehicle has on the behaviour of a driver?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Dealing with your point, Diana, I think you are right. Perhaps I can provide some reassurance. I do think you should contextualise this debate in a bigger debate. I do not think it is something you can do in legislation. You are absolutely right that the implications over the longer term oblige a proper lateral discussion—quite a serious discussion—about our transport future. If I can briefly make a case for the Bill, Chairman, it tries to steer a way between being too prescriptive about what that future looks like and putting enough of a framework in place not to inhibit research and development and further technological change. There is a big contextual discussion to be had, and I hope the Bill might stimulate that in the time we have here and in Committee, but it is going to take place over a longer time in a bigger forum, I suspect.
On the specific point about job growth and job shift—you made a very balanced point about how some jobs will change, some will grow and some will shift—I want to come back to the issue raised by previous witnesses about people who currently cannot or do not drive. In rural areas, for example, in many places in Cornwall, Lincolnshire, Dorset and similar places, half the parishes do not have access to public transport. Can you imagine a future where autonomous vehicles will fill that void and provide a link to public transport, perhaps buses, trains and so on, and therefore boost the use of that transport for people who currently cannot get there. They will have access to autonomous vehicles because they are straightforward things to drive.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q May I add a quick point? I am grateful for your welcome—I am not surprised; I have worked very closely with Unite—and I take your point on that. Would it be fair to say that you hope, as I do, that as well as this necessary legislation we can have a bigger debate to ensure that this fits into the broader narrative about the transport future?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Wherever my ministerial footprint touches, the unions are always involved.
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q I declare my interest as a member of Unite, the GMB and the RMT. I wonder whether you have any concerns about the skills gap and training. Should there be something in the Bill about forcing or encouraging manufacturers to train people?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
I am grateful that the Minister is nodding very enthusiastically.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
It is a good point.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q On the issue of vehicles being connected in convoy on the motorway, are you saying that there should be a specific reference or clause in the Bill about connected vehicles and how they behave?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q So those layers go from driver assisted right through to full automation?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Are you satisfied that that is covered in the Bill or should there be reference to those five?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Would those five layers cover all forms of transport as time goes on, not just lorries on smart motorways but vehicles that are passing one another, approaching one another in built-up areas and communicating with one another? Would it cover all those areas of automation?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Is it your understanding that automation governs all aspects of the vehicle, so they cannot speed and will obey the speed limit at all times?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Thank you. That is very interesting.
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Yes.
Scott Mann (Conservative, North Cornwall)
Q Briefly, in the last session I talked about some of the conditions and the loss of confidence that people have. Do you accept that the Bill increases social mobility?
Scott Mann (Conservative, North Cornwall)
Just a simple yes or no.
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Q What impact will the Bill have on employment if it goes through?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Finally, I want to return to Mr Turner’s point on skills, which I nodded vigorously at, as he noted. Presumably to facilitate the discussion you are suggesting—the bigger debate about the transport future—it would be helpful now to begin dialogue with the FE sector and with manufacturers on apprenticeship frameworks. That is beginning. As you described, Rob, you are having those kind of discussions, but I am of a mind that the Government should now facilitate some more of that. Would you welcome that? I am inclined to take the view that while it is true that we cannot exactly predict either the character or timing of the technology, initial discussions of the kind that you proposed would be helpful. Is that about right?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q So you would welcome an initiative, if I launched one, to have that kind of dialogue.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q While you acknowledge, reasonably so, that we cannot be definitive about exactly where this will lead, we need to start engaging with all the partner organisations that can make the skills you describe a reality.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q If, under clause 4, an employer were to compel a driver to take a vehicle on the road that does not comply or have all the safety-critical software downloaded, should that be a criminal offence on the part of the employer? What should be included in the Bill to deal with that?
Examination of Witness
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
The Bill addresses Q fundamental issues involving electric and automated vehicles that are revolutionising how drivers and we as a society see driving. Do you think that the Bill as it stands will address the issue of public confidence in new technologies?
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
Q So is there anything that needs to be addressed in the Bill?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q You have described very well the problems that we have. I declare an interest as the owner of an electric vehicle. Finding somewhere to charge it is often extremely difficult. One of the other problems is home charging and the requirement for off-street parking. I noticed very recently Hackney Council’s lamppost charging. What do you think about that? Do local authorities need to do more to support councils to provide charging points?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q I suppose my point is that the cost to install this will be reduced. It will probably be a lot less costly.
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q It is, but we have a situation where local authorities are cash-strapped. Not every local authority has a lot of electric vehicles; I think Hull City Council has two charging points. They are hoping to get to the dizzying heights of 70 at some point before 2020, and they are doing their best. Should we not encourage local authorities with incentives—crudely, I mean cash incentives—to ensure that the equipment is available for everybody?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q Finally, the Bill makes it mandatory for fuel stations to provide charging points. Does that need to be in the Bill?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Robert, I will try to be pithy too. Broadly, from what you have told us so far, you welcome the Bill. Your journey to Edinburgh will be helped by the fact that the Bill suggests that fuel retailers should have charging points, because you could access them on the way, but you also say that we need to do more on the spread of charging points. Is that a fair summary?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q I have one other point—an old chestnut that I make no apology for roasting one more time—about the look and feel of charging points. I am keen that they should have some familiarity, so that people see a charging point and know what it is. Is that a good idea?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q And you hope that Her Majesty’s Opposition will move an amendment on the provision of coffee, do you?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Q Robert, you are a great enthusiast for automated and electric vehicles, so the Bill must please you no end. I have just a broad question and then a specific question. Broadly, what is missing from the Bill? We heard from Unite about integrated transport, rather than this just being about the relationship between the driver and the vehicle via the insurance company, as well as some other small matters. So on the bigger issue, what do you think is missing? What would you like to see if you were the Minister in charge?
I want to ask a particular question at the end about vehicle variations. Does the Bill accommodate what we will see in the future? I believe we will see different types of vehicle variation, because there will be electric vehicles instead of just the four-seater saloon car.
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Q Boris bikes for villages.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Q This is just a supplementary question on your earlier point about Ireland and California having a harmonised payment mechanism. Did that come about just from the industry creating it or was there Government regulation or legislation?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Q So that is something you would like this Bill, or another piece of legislation, to do.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
It is great to be in the company of someone so evangelical about EVs. You have probably seen the ambition for the introduction of electric vehicles and the replacement of petrol and diesel by 2040, and an outright ban by 2050. Do you think we are being ambitious enough compared with other nations, and what it is that other nations are doing that perhaps we could learn fromQ ?
Scott Mann (Conservative, North Cornwall)
Q I just wanted to ask briefly about your experience of driving in very rural areas. We have a lot of energy generation around the country happening in rural areas, through solar and wind. I just wanted to know whether there are enough charging points in rural areas and whether we could do something to decouple the national grid in some of those areas, so that some of the farmers producing that energy could effectively provide charging points.
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
My question is similar, but from an urban perspective. What would you see as the most effective way to encourage urban residents, particularly those who do not have off-street parking, to convert to electric vehicles? Secondly, how would you incentivise landowners who have car parks, such as large employers, railway stations and supermarkets, to have chargersQ ?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q Do you feel there is a need to look at the way the planning system could incentivise that, to get the market started?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q Past UK Government policy led to an increase in uptake of diesel vehicles, which we now know are huge contributors to problems of air pollution. Therefore, to achieve future deadlines, would it make sense for the UK Government directly to incentivise the purchase of EVs or low-emission vehicles, through scrappage schemes and so on?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q Incentivise, rather than insist.
Examination of Witnesses
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Thank you very much indeed for attending. The Minister suggested on Second Reading that the Bill would deliver a cost saving to people who are insured on automated and autonomous vehicles, because they will be safer. Do you think that that is correct? Will insurance be cheaperQ 87?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q Thank you. Do you think that there is a necessity for licensing and accreditation for technicians? Should that be in the Bill?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q Why can you not just let the industry get on with it? Why does it need to be in the Bill?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
With Sir Edward’s permission, does any other witness want to comment?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Thank you, Sir Edward. Steve, you were previously very supportive of the Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill, the forerunner of this Bill, particularly of the measures on AVs. Can you tell me why and why you think it is right that the Government bring this kind of legislation forward now? How important is it that in order to encourage further development we establish a legislative framework?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Sorry, I directed the question to Mr Gooding
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
That is the trouble with two Steves. I do apologise.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q I want to pick up a point that Mr Wong made about safety. Is it your estimation that there will be a graph, if you like, and that as vehicles become automated in part they will become safer, and as they become safer accidents will fall? We now have assisted parking, for example, and my wife tells me that that means I am less likely to bump the car, because I get a bit of help with reversing. Could we develop an understanding of a growing level of safety as a result of partial automation?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
How very interesting.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
We heard earlier from the insurance industry that they had been led to believe that autonomous vehicles, as they evolved and eventually came to market, would inevitably contain software that would enable the vehicle to reject a transfer from the driver to the autonomous system if it was in a location that made it unsafe for the autonomous system to operate. I am talking about the period during which we do not have cars without any steering wheels but we have ones that are sometimes autonomous and sometimes used by drivers. Do you share their confidence that vehicles will always be manufactured with software that prevents handover to the autonomous system except where it is totally safeQ ?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Does that mean that if the system does not make the offer, the driver will not be able to give it control?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Thank you. A question about charging points, which you were talking about: how important do you think it is that there should be a charging point in every place where there is a lawful parking space by a pavement in a city or town? What kind of timescale would you envisage for needing that level of penetration?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Do you think that there needs to be, in effect, a national plan for the location of the charge points as we approach 2040?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
WhatQ is the incentive to develop the automated car technology? Is it large fleet owners who employ a lot of drivers wanting to cut down on their overhead staff costs? Or is it the private car industry?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Are we not a long way off from those sort of automated vehicles?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q There is a difference between an automated vehicle that can undertake a journey on a motorway and a vehicle that would have to drive around the roads here in Westminster. If it is going to provide that sort of access for someone who cannot drive at the moment because of a physical disability, it has to be that high level—level 5—of automation.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Can I ask about the figure of 95% of accidents caused by human error? Who else can drive a car and cause an error? At the moment we do not have automated vehicles. Is that not a bit of an obvious point—most accidents are caused by humans because cars, de facto, are driven by humans?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Can we expect that figure to go down as a proportion of the accidents, as we increase the level of automation?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
But even the slow-moving vehicle in Greenwich hit a plastic chair when it was put in front of it, did it not? We are going to see accidents during a journey where the vehicle is being driven by software. Those accidents are going to happen. The periods when a vehicle is not driven by a human are going to increase, so we are likely to see an increase in the number of accidents that are not human error. Is that right?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q I was going to come to that, if the Chair indulges me. You touched on the issue of the vehicles making decisions. In an incident where a vehicle is being driven by software on an automated journey and a child runs out in the road in front of the vehicle, the vehicle can either veer to the left into oncoming traffic or to the right on to the pavement, or it can knock down the child, because the child is too close for it to be able to stop. How do we make a moral judgment about how a vehicle should behave in those circumstances?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Yes, but we have to legislate.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q So no evasive action would be taken. The vehicle would just—
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
This is probably more to Mr Madderson. You touched on mandating or not mandating particular solutions. Do you have any assessment, either anecdotal or based on research, from your members? The big retailers may well be able to adapt over time and have different types of fuel supply, charging points, conventional fuels and so on. What is your assessment of the ability to adapt of smaller local retailers of fuel, or your feeling about the impactQ ?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q To be honest, I think Mr Madderson has answered the question I was about to ask: what are the carrots? He said it was all stick and no carrot.
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q Could I ask what the average cost is? Am I right to say £50,000?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q To jump back to your point, Brian—it is nice to see you again, by the way—you will know how supportive I am of small and medium-sized business of the kind you represent. Is it fair to say that the Bill begins a process of spreading the number of charging points by picking on and mandating those larger retailers, but that to get the coverage we all seek there will need to be other mechanisms, because in rural areas, for example, where many of you are based, there might be no large retailer conveniently situated? Can you see the Bill as a welcome start?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q So Mr Wong thinks we should have a co-ordinated national strategy, whereas you think that the market should prevail. Is that the difference between you?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Obviously, you represent the motor manufacturers, and I am concerned about the shape and size of vehicles going forward and the adequacy of the legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull here has, I think, a TwingoQ —do you have a Twingo?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
A Twizy.
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Twizy—that is it. I notice even on the continent, particularly in urban areas, we are getting smaller and smaller electric vehicles and cars driving around. Is the legislation adequate for the type and size of electric vehicle that might come on to the market? What changes do you see, for example? How will an automated vehicle work when you add a trailer to it or make some other changes to it? The shape, size and form of vehicles is probably going to change, as you are well aware, so will the legislation be adequate for those vehicles to be on the road when they are automated—of course, when they are operated by an individual manually, there is a human choice—and the automation is making choices?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Q It is not just that. What if I set off with a trailer in manual mode but I suddenly decide to be sneaky and switch it over to automated and go to sleep? There are a whole bunch of issues around the change in form, shape and size of vehicle and going between manual and automated.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q I have one further question, on a slightly different subject. This morning, we talked about how these developments will change the nature of the skills required. Steve 1, if I may call you that, mentioned that earlier. Presumably you will also acknowledge that it will give rise to new skills. There will be a shift in skills and new kinds of jobs and skills will develop. Is there not an exciting prospect of a whole range of new competences coming as a direct result of this technology? Is that fair?
Rosie Duffield (Labour, Canterbury)
If there was one aspect of the Bill that members of the panel could change, what would it be?Q
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
Could I just follow up an answer you gave earlier, Mr Wong? You talked about the Audi model of traffic jams, where a car will offer to take over when a series of conditions are met. Is that how you see this working in the short term? Is it phase four?Q
Craig Tracey (Conservative, North Warwickshire)
Q My question is: if one of those conditions is not met, then you said that it will invite the driver to take back control. What happens if the driver either does not or cannot take back control? How quickly would that process need to happen? Given that, why does that not give the potential for there to be more accidents in the short term?
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
InQ connection with what has been discussed today in relation to these five levels from manual to automated: in the context of the Bill, is the definition of “automated” in the Bill adequate for the purposes of the Bill at this point?
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
Q So there is no need to delineate the different levels and so forth within the Bill.
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
You are shaking your head.
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
DoQ you think that there is a case for the Government to introduce rules requiring the providers of these electric charging points to have to advertise the price they are going to charge the motorist, with the price visible before the vehicle actually parks up to the charging unit, as it has done for autogas, petrol and diesel sales?
Greg Knight (Conservative, East Yorkshire)
Q It is necessary really, is it not?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
I was interested in Mr Madderson’s point about not mandating. The car industry has often reacted well when it has been mandated to do things; when things such as Euro NCAP were introduced, it followed suit and made dramatic improvements. Given the ambition of the Government and across all parties to see more adoption of ultra low emission vehicles, and given that markets such as Norway’s are much further ahead than ours, what should we be doing to ensure that we are in a leadership position in electric vehicle technology?Q
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q I just want to clarify something that Steve Gooding said. Why do you think that it is clear that clause 2(1), which refers to
“an automated vehicle when driving itself”,
applies only to level 4? Why does it not apply to level 3?
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q On charging infrastructure, we have just heard evidence from the Petrol Retailers Association, which is very worried about being mandated to have charging points on the forecourts of its members. What is your prediction of what would happen if we did not mandate them to do that? If it was not required by law physically to invest and have them on their forecourts, would they bother?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q I am delighted to hear what you say and absolutely agree with you. If the problem of range anxiety is addressed or partially addressed by fast charging at service stations and so on, we are still left with—I think you said—40% of homes that do not have off-street car parking. Have you done any assessment of the kinds of costs involved for the distribution network operators if over the period between now and 2040 there was a roll-out of universal charge points on the street in towns and cities—probably not all areas—where there is lawful parking?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Have you looked at the cost associated for a DNO in London, say?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Has UKPN done an analysis?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q Have you looked at the other side of the coin—the peak locked-in capacity of the cars that are attached at a given time of day, say in the mornings or evenings, that could be used as a sort of battery resource?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q When do you anticipate results from those trials?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q I wanted to bring up two or three things. The first is that you presumably agree with the changes we made from the first Bill, which was the forerunner of this Bill—the Bill that did not make the cut before the election. You will remember that what we have done this time is clarify the definition of automated vehicles, as a result of previous scrutiny. We have tightened that definition. How important do you think that is in providing confidence to the industry in respect of further developments?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q In terms of electric vehicles, I take it that the availability of a robust charging infrastructure is critical to the further take-up of those vehicles. I know there are other barriers to entry—market price, reliable battery technology and so on—but presumably in your view the charging infrastructure is an important part of encouraging more people to buy electric.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Finally, we heard a lot earlier about the development of skills. The point was made across the Committee that we need a co-ordinated process by which we encourage the further development of relevant skills as the technology moves on. What is your thinking about that? Clearly, the industry is doing a lot of work on skills, but how can we more effectively accelerate the acquisition of the necessary skills so that we are not left in a situation where this technology can be serviced at only a very limited number of places?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Thank you.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Following up on the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset, I have a question about the capacity of the grid to cope with the expected increase in demand, and in particular the timing of that demand. While researching for the Second Reading debate, I came across an Atkins report that draws on findings from the Energy Technology Institute that peak demand is likely to be in the early evenings—particularly Sunday evenings—and that that could increase demand on the grid by 10 GW, or 20%, at the time when it is least able to cope. Is that a finding that you recogniseQ ?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Q Are you content, given the content of the Bill, that the industry will come up with those incentives itself, or will there be a requirement for further guidance or direction?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
On the smart grid that we are aspiring to, the panel has already alluded to the fact that they think smart charging will come by market, but there is a lot more that the Government need to think about in the wider energy mix, because there is also decarbonisation of heat and further decarbonisation of electricity. There is the future scenario of an influx of electric vehicles, but a whole lot else is going on in the energy mix as well. The point is to make sure that is all captured to get the smart grid we needQ .
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q Can I ask one more question about the model scenarios? You are modelling how many vehicles might be coming in, among other things. Is that based on mass volume modelling, or does it look at existing restrictions in the network and at where the uptake might be? Clearly, uptake depends on the roll-out of the charging system and some local authorities in some areas are much more at the forefront of that than others. That potentially impacts their work as well.
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q So it is a live, ongoing process.
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
Q Are there global standards within the industry for the connections between the cars and the charging equipment? Is there a global standard for the charging equipment? Should there be a universal way of connecting, so that you do not travel somewhere and find you cannot plug your car in? Should there be a railways gauge Act for electric cars, so that we get that uniformity?
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
Q Should there eventually be one?
Stephen Kerr (Conservative, Stirling)
Q You do not see legislation playing a part in this?
Scott Mann (Conservative, North Cornwall)
A couple of my questions have already been answeredQ . One was on the car-to-grid technology and the other one was on peak capacity. I want to ask the National Grid this: does your grid mirror some of the main arterial roads that run through the country? How effectively could you put your grid capacity into locations? I am firmly of the view that we should not necessarily assume that we want all the charging points to be in current service stations—there might be opportunities outside the existing ones—so how easy will it be for you to deliver that with your current grid locations?
Scott Mann (Conservative, North Cornwall)
Q I have one small supplementary question, if I may. Do you see yourselves as being an end-to-end provider or do you see other companies coming in to fill that middle gap?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q On the back of that, between you there is immense expertise in managing complex systems—I have read your CVs. On the issue of grid management, earlier today we heard a call for some kind of co-ordinated approach on where charge points were located to ensure their spread, and to ensure that there were no areas that would become black holes where there were not enough charging points. Presumably, any such co-ordinated plan would need to be married to the supply of electricity via the grid. The Bill does not yet do this. It is a first step down this road, and it simply increases the number of charging points. Do you see the sense of putting together a co-ordinated national strategy that ties together the provision of the charging points with the provision of the power?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q I was not necessarily suggesting that it ought to be mandated; I was simply arguing that it might be facilitated. There could be a co-ordinated approach that might facilitate—this is the word that was used earlier—both the provision of charging points and the other considerations.
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q I was interested in what you were saying about the workplace uptake, the conversion and how it switches people. Do you think we are doing enough—with all the housing developments and the local plans being put in place across the country—either to mandate or to encourage a rapid and widespread adoption of electric vehicles?
Matt Western (Labour, Warwick and Leamington)
Q What could we do?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
AirQ quality is a huge issue, particularly in many urban areas and some other parts of the country. What do you believe could be done to increase the roll-out and take-up of electric vehicles in urban areas to help tackle the problem of air quality?
Matt Rodda (Labour, Reading East)
Q If you do not mind, I will ask a brief supplementary question. Those points all sound very valid, but they may apply to the whole country. Are there specific measures that you would suggest the Government ought to be considering for urban areas?
Examination of Witness
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
You certainly look good for having done 50,000 miles “under” the wheels.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Anyhow, this is about automated vehicles. When automated vehicles and conventional vehicles share the roads, will the question of who is liable for accidents become more complicated?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Do you think that the legislation goes far enough on that? Do you think that there should be more in the Bill?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Can I move on to this issue about the transition from automated vehicle to a person taking over? We have heard various descriptions about the length of time that might take. You say that we need to be clear about the moment that the driver becomes responsible and the software is not, but is there an issue around safety caused by that transition?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q On the moral issues that are raised by algorithms that control these vehicles at a time when there is an accident, a scenario I used earlier on was that of a child stepping out in front of an automated vehicle, and to the left there is oncoming traffic and to the right there are pedestrians on the pavement. How do you legislate what you require of the vehicle in those circumstances?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q So what will happen?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q I will leave it there. One last question on what is driving this forward—that was not an intentional pun. Is it the desire of companies that employ large workforces that drive vehicles which are striving for automated vehicles, or is it the demand from the public, which wants to sit comfortably behind the wheel and not have to think too much for long journeys?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Is the Government’s target of 2044 for zero-carbon new cars ambitious enoughQ ?
Alan Brown (Scottish National Party, Kilmarnock and Loudoun)
Q To follow on from that, it is interesting what you say about the conundrum of managing consumer expectations so that people do not buy a vehicle that might not suit their purposes. Going forward, when the technology allows, given that it was UK Government policy that drove the flux of diesel vehicles, does there come a point when the Government should incentivise a diesel scrappage scheme to get that mass ownership?
Rosie Duffield (Labour, Canterbury)
Q You talked about getting drivers behind this because they know it is the right thing to do, and that drivers are frightened. We are also trying to meet the environmental targets that the Government have set. Knowing car enthusiasts as you do, do you think that people will ever feel as enthusiastic and fanatical about electric vehicles as they do about Ferraris or other exciting cars?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Thank you for coming again; you will remember that we had an exchange when you came to the evidence session on the previous Bill. One would accept your view that we will not switch to electric vehicles overnight. Clearly, we do not want to eliminate the use of older classic vintage vehicles—my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire challenged me on that on Second Reading—but surely there is a good case for taking advantage of the improved battery technology, the greater affordability of electric cars as volume grows, the smoother ride that they give, and their many other virtues. I do not claim that electric cars are nirvana, but given that this will not happen just like that and some allowance will need to be made for the older vehicles that my right hon. Friend champions, surely you acknowledge that it is likely to happen and in the end it is quite a good thing?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Let us follow the logic of your argument. I agree the battery technology is a key determinant of take-up, as you described. Clearly, capital prices are a big issue too, and we have supported that over some time, but we acknowledge that until we get volumes up, prices are unlikely to fall significantly, in the way you describe. The third thing is the charging infrastructure. Confidence about being able to recharge on long journeys is critical to people’s acceptance of the technology. We have agreed that the move to electric is rather a good thing and we excluded the tiny number of vintage vehicles and classics. Do you acknowledge that the Bill is at least a step towards that? It begins to put together a framework of legislation when it takes account of infrastructure that will at least deal with one of our three shared perceptions about barriers to entry.
Examination of Witnesses
Karl Turner (Labour, Kingston upon Hull East)
Q I have one really quick question on safety. What are the safety implications for blind pedestrians, runners and people of that nature?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q What will be the limit of the speed that your vehicles can travel at in an urban area?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q In 2019, your vehicles would be the only automated vehicles on the road.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q Immediately?
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q All the research that I have seen in preparing for this Committee shows that there is a time lag in the transition from the vehicle being under automated control to being under driver control. Your vehicles will not have that.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q But there is an issue about when drivers take over from automated vehicles: they are over-cautious and slow down. There are concerns about whether that is dangerous at that moment in time and also it increases congestion because you suddenly have loads of slow-moving vehicles. You seem to be suggesting a flick of a switch and that it goes from driver to automated.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
Q As the legislation is drafted, as long as somebody insures you, there is nothing stopping you putting that vehicle on the road for an experimental period in 2019.
Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)
To test—
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q To follow on from the hon. Member for Eltham, you are talking about level 4 rather than 3. Do you envisage that the machine’s design will be able to engage in autonomous conduct on every kind of road from the very first moment that they are launched?
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q So a level 4 vehicle has some of the aspects of a level 3 vehicle, in the sense that there will be certain road conditions and certain kinds of roads where it needs to hand back to the human driver.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q So I am driving along a motorway where your system is happy. I diverge on to a trunk road where your system is happy. I move from the trunk road on to a B road where your system is happy. It is a somewhat rainy or snowy day. I get on to a one-track road in my constituency and your machine suddenly decides it is not going to get me to my home.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q So these are city-only cars.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q And they are available to drivers not as a vehicle, so to speak, but as a service on certain days of the year under certain conditions.
Oliver Letwin (Conservative, West Dorset)
Q It is basically like not being able to get a cab.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q I have three questions. First, you made an interesting case in response to questions from my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset and the hon. Member for Eltham about what you see as the likely development in autonomous vehicles. I will put two scenarios to you, and I would ask you to describe the most likely one. There is an instinctive, intuitive view that autonomy will grow gradually, partly because that is more likely to lead to public acceptance. So rather in the way that assisted parking or sat nav or cruise control have become increasingly routine, other aspects of autonomy will be added to that. Autonomous vehicles will sort of creep on us.
There is another view that we may go straight to a kind of autonomous vehicle. Indeed I have looked at some of the R and D on that. As you may know, there is an entirely autonomous vehicle at Greenwich supported by Greenwich council, with some Government funding too. That is a vehicle that travels on a straight run of road that is entirely autonomous. You get into it, and it does what it says on the tin. Which of the two scenarios is the most likely, in your view? Or are they most likely to develop in parallel?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q My second question is about software. We debated this to some degree today. Presumably, the challenge is to develop sufficiently sophisticated software to anticipate scenarios encompassing all kinds of different eventualities. An interesting question was put earlier by the hon. Member for Eltham about the element of human judgment in driving when faced with a dilemma, where you would hit traffic rather than a child, or you might swerve and possibly cause a more serious accident. The way that scenario planning is written into software would require hundreds of thousands of scenarios being tested. I know there is R and D being undertaken in this area. Would you briefly describe that to us?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q So you are not simulating what is, as I put it, a tens of thousands scenario; it is millions. It is the whole of London, in all weather conditions, in all circumstances, for all vehicles, in all eventualities.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Q Thank you for that; that was fascinating. My final question is about skills. We debated skills earlier; Mr Turner raised the issue and I then amplified it. From what you are describing, and I discovered this in my early research, the car mechanic of the future will be a software engineer as much as he is a mechanic, and that is going to require a step change in skills. Are we ready for that, and if not, what are we going to do about it?